Building Brands That Stand Out In A World That Never Turns Off with Lulus and The Lead | Reimagining Retail

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: Building Brands That Stand Out in a World That Never Turns Off

Podcast: Behind the Numbers: An eMarketer Podcast – "Reimagining Retail"
Episode Title: Building Brands That Stand Out In A World That Never Turns Off with Lulus and The Lead
Date: October 22, 2025
Host: Suzy Deva Kenya (EMARKETER, Guest Host)
Guests:

• Sanal Gandhi, Chief Content Officer, The Lead
• Patrick Buchanan, SVP of Marketing, Lulus
• Sky Canavas, Principal Analyst, EMARKETER

---

Overview

This episode explores what it takes for brands to stand out and build genuine connections in a hyper-connected, "always-on" environment where marketing channels, technology, and consumer habits change at breakneck speed. The discussion centers around finding a balance between leveraging data and maintaining human authenticity, using insights from the Direct 60 list, and unpacking emerging tactics that cut through noise in digital retail.

---

1. The Direct 60 List & Modern Brand Leadership

(02:26–04:44)

• Purpose of the Direct 60:
  Sanal Gandhi explains that The Lead’s Direct 60 list was launched in the wake of rapid direct-to-consumer changes driven by the pandemic. It highlights executives who are reimagining go-to-market strategies, focusing on digitization, direct-to-consumer (DTC) models, and innovative marketing.
• Key Trends from D60:
  • Rise and application of AI in both marketing data and consumer discovery
  • Need for brands to build emotional connections, especially with younger customers (e.g., Gen Z)
  • The challenge of adapting to shifting consumer loyalties and rapid trend cycles
  • Quote:
    “Brands are really navigating a trend-driven world and really trying to stay true to who they are.” – Sanal Gandhi (03:51)

---

2. The Always-On Marketing Mindset

(04:44–06:39)

• Consumers’ Changing Expectations:
  Sky Canavas points out that consumers now carry “a shopping mall in our pockets that’s open 24/7” and that marketing happens everywhere, from social media to integrated content.
• Tolerance for Ads:
  Consumers are more accepting of ads if they’re relevant and engaging, but quickly tune out irrelevant messaging.
  • Quote:
    “I get mad at YouTube. It keeps showing me the same ads that have nothing to do with me or my interests.” – Sky Canavas (05:46)
• Opportunities & Demands:
  Brands must meet rising expectations for personalization and meaningful engagement.

---

3. Keeping Pace: Data, Instinct, and Creative Risk

(07:03–10:39)

• Adapting to Constant Change:
  Patrick Buchanan describes the brand side’s perspective, noting the need to embrace change as routine and reject “same same” marketing.
  • Quote:
    “I just try to find ways to bake it into my strategy... Same same is just not going to be able to keep us surviving.” – Patrick Buchanan (07:17)
• Balancing Data and Instinct:
  Patrick positions data and creative instinct as partners rather than opposites. Instinct sparks ideas; data guides and refines them.
  • “Data and instinct, I consider them partners, not opposite.” (09:14)
  • “Sometimes take an ugly look and say, it didn’t work... That’s OK. The data said it didn’t work, or she’s not interested, we loved it, she didn’t.” (10:03)
• Iterative Mindset:
  Willingness to experiment, accept failure, and refine based on learnings is emphasized.

---

4. Rethinking KPIs & Internal Alignment

(10:39–15:22)

• Shifts in Metrics:
  Sanal observes a shift from standard revenue metrics to engagement-based KPIs, especially when targeting specific demographics like Gen Z.
  • All departments (not just marketing) are being aligned on singular, relevant KPIs.
  • “How much are we engaging our target and then focusing the entire organization on that KPI.” – Sanal Gandhi (11:24)
• Campaign-Specific KPIs:
  Patrick notes that every campaign may have different KPIs—sometimes focused on sales, other times on brand storytelling or memory.
  • Critical for leadership to align and clearly communicate these KPIs to teams.
  • “If there’s no alignment from the leaders, then how can your team bring you back the result that you want?” – Patrick Buchanan (13:25)
• Return to Brand Affinity:
  Both speakers highlight a re-emergence of old-school brand health metrics—affinity, recognition, and equity—alongside performance analytics.
  • “There’s now a little bit of a shift towards the old school brand measurements as well.” – Sanal Gandhi (14:55)
  • “The reason you want them to choose you is because, you know, they like what you do, they love your vibe, they love what you stand for.” – Patrick Buchanan (15:22)

---

5. Authenticity and Influencer Marketing

(16:01–19:33)

• People Want Realness:
  Patrick observes increased demand for authenticity over polish—real stories, real people, life-stage resonance.
  • “People are wanting something that feels real... when they hear stories that feel like their own or they see people who look like they're in a similar life stage.” (16:03)
• Evolution of Influencer Strategy:
  Sky details a paradox: influencer marketing is bigger than ever, but audiences trust smaller creators (micro-influencers) more than celebrities.
  • “More of the marketing spending is moving towards influencers or creators with the smaller followings.” (17:59)
  • Trusted, unbiased testimonials (from everyday users) drive brand equity.
• User-Generated Content Example:
  Patrick highlights Lulu’s “You and Lulus” campaign where authentic customer stories (e.g., prom, wedding, graduation) outperform staged influencer content.
  • “You get to see real people. It’s like, okay, these are how real women wear our dresses and how they show up in their real life.” (18:47)
• Fostering Two-Way Community:
  Sky emphasizes that brands must go beyond passive social listening to active community dialogue—replying to DMs, comments, and engaging authentically.
  • “It kind of has to go beyond just social listening... into social dialogue.” (19:33)

---

6. Rapid Fire Advice: Thriving in an Always-On World

(20:52–23:53)

Sky Canavas

• Focus on generative AI and show up in new touchpoints (like chatbot search and instant checkout):
  • “It’s about how brands are getting their products ready to show up in that carousel for easy shopping, easy purchase within that environment.” (21:12)

Sanal Gandhi

• Hire customers or influencers with genuine passion for the brand into internal teams, as they connect authentically with audiences.
  • “Hiring people with not traditional marketing backgrounds but people who know your brand or know how to do influencer marketing well.” (21:38)

Patrick Buchanan

• Prioritize relevance over volume. Don't overwhelm your customers; focus on authentic, caring engagement rather than dominating attention.
  • “In an always on world, relevance matters more than volume. People come to you for a reason, and I would say just deliver on that reason ... Make sure what you’re doing is feeling authentic and is at the pace that your customer actually wants to hear from you...” (22:02–23:18)
• Allow your brand to coexist with others in consumers' lives; don’t attempt to dominate every interest.

Final Reflection

• Sanal’s closing analogy: Every brand must think like a sneaker brand—today’s “it” can quickly be replaced by tomorrow’s new favorite, so always look ahead to the next cycle. (23:30)

---

Key Takeaways & Memorable Moments

• Staying relevant requires balancing fast adaptation with authentic brand values and deeper organizational alignment on flexible KPIs.
• Data and creative instinct work best in partnership—neither alone drives lasting success.
• There’s a return to “old school” brand building tactics: affinity, community, and storytelling matter as much as (if not more than) pure performance metrics.
• Influencer strategies are evolving toward authenticity, smaller creators, and user-driven content.
• The future is in leveraging new technologies (like gen AI) without losing sight of relevance, authenticity, and human connection.

---

Selected Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Brands are really navigating a trend-driven world and really trying to stay true to who they are.” – Sanal Gandhi, 03:51
• “I get mad at YouTube... but I feel a little bit of affinity on Instagram where I can see ads for cute snacks that I might want to purchase.” – Sky Canavas, 05:46
• “Same same is just not going to be able to keep us surviving in the landscape.” – Patrick Buchanan, 07:23
• “Data and instinct, I consider them partners, not opposite.” – Patrick Buchanan, 09:14
• “How much are we engaging our target and then focusing the entire organization on that KPI.” – Sanal Gandhi, 11:24
• “If there’s no alignment from the leaders, then how can your team bring you back the result that you want?” – Patrick Buchanan, 13:25
• “People are wanting something that feels real.” – Patrick Buchanan, 16:03
• “Trusted referral is becoming more and more important to help cut through the noise.” – Sky Canavas, 17:50
• “You get to see real people. It’s like, okay, these are how real women wear our dresses and how they show up in their real life.” – Patrick Buchanan, 18:47
• “More is not always more. Make sure what you’re doing is authentic and at the pace that your customer actually wants to hear from you.” – Patrick Buchanan, 23:16
• “All brands now are sneaker brands... every brand has to think like that—they’ll be on top, and tomorrow it’ll be somebody else.” – Sanal Gandhi, 23:30

---

This episode offers a nuanced, energizing look at the future-facing tools, mindsets, and strategies that help brands stay human, agile, and memorable—no matter how fast the world turns.

Transcript

[A]

Consumers skip ads, but they don't skip rewards. Fetch drives performance. With over 12.5 million monthly active users and over 11.5 million receipts scanned daily, capturing 88% of household spend. Your brand becomes the reward, earning real engagement, verified purchases, and loyalty. Fetch, America's rewards app, where brands are the center of joy. Hello, listeners. Today is Wednesday, October 22nd. Welcome to Reimagining Retail, an E marketer podcast made possible by Fetch. This is the weekly show where we talk about how retail collides with every part of our lives. I'm your guest host, Susie Deva Kenya, and on today's episode, we're talking about what it takes to build brands that can actually stand out in a world that never turns off. But before we do, let's meet today's guests. Joining me for today's episode, we have Sanal Gandhi, Chief Content Officer at the lead, joining us from New York City. Hi, Sonal.

[B]

Hi, Suzy.

[A]

Thank you for having me. Thanks so much for joining us. And we also have Patrick Buchanan, SVP of marketing at Lulu's, and one of this year's direct 60 honorees joining us from LA. Hey, Patrick.

[C]

Hello there. So excited to be here today.

[A]

Well, we are, too. So excited to have you. And of course, back on the show is podcast regular principal analyst Sky Canavas joining us from Texas. Hey, Sky.

[B]

Hey, Susie. And nice to be here with you all.

[A]

I'm so excited about this episode because we know that the pace of marketing is faster than ever. The pressure to be data driven has never been higher, and yet it's really clear that brands that are winning are the ones that still find ways to stay human, to connect emotionally, not just algorithmically in an authentic way where they're consumers. So it's really a balancing act that every marketer is navigating. How do you move fast, use data smartly, but still build brand love with your consumers? And that's exactly what the direct 60 list from the lead celebrates. The executives redefining what go to market even means today. So before we get started, though, I wanted to ask you, Sonal, for those who are not quite as familiar with the D60, can you tell us more about it and what does it reveal about how the best marketers are thinking differently right now?

[D]

Yeah, so the direct 60 list is something that we started producing in 2020, 2021 timeframe, when most brands, most iconic brands, were really shifting the way they go to market because of the pandemic, because of the fact that direct to consumer became a big part of their business. And they needed to digitize really fast. So we started with the list of executive iconic legacy brands that were really digitizing their business and changing their approach to consumer. That's why the name Direct. This is now the fifth year and we're basically featuring executives that are on the front end of the consumer value chain in marketing, in E commerce, in digital roles and technology roles that are really reshaping how these brands approach consumers. So we call them executives Mastering the business of brands.

[A]

And are you seeing any patterns that.

[D]

Are emerging in order to do the list? I speak to dozens of executives and interview them for them. And every year there are new themes that emerge based on the challenges that they're facing currently and what's happening economically as well as with technology. And we see a ton of patterns emerging. Over the course of the last few years we've seen a lot of emphasis on AI, both for doing data driven marketing, but also also this current shift towards gen AI which is really top of mind for everybody right now in terms of how consumers are discovering products. We're seeing that the need to create this emotional connection with the younger demographic is really top of mind as well because they discover products differently, they have different loyalties towards brand and their behavior shifts very fast and brands are really navigating a trend driven world and really trying to stay true to who they are. So I think those are the main themes that we've seen emerge recently is how fast everything's changing and how they have to keep adapting to a new business environment almost on an annual basis.

[A]

And you know, we're seeing that a lot too, right? Sky, in terms of like there's so much pressure and tension that's coming from the outside world, from consumers themselves, never mind the technology. And so it's leading to this always on marketing mindset from the consumer side and that's changing their expectations. Sky, what are some of the things you're seeing in the larger landscape?

[B]

So that's because we all basically have a shopping mall in our pockets that's open 247 and it's not just a shopping center, it's also an entertainment center. So this really creates new opportunities to reach consumers pretty much anytime, anywhere and whether they have specific shopping intent or not across those platforms like social video streaming and now with the AI platforms as well. And I think at the same time consumer have grown more accustomed to being marketed to on these platforms. So I remember now it's almost exactly two years ago when TikTok shop launched and I remember there was a flood of shopping Content coming up in user feeds and all of these complaints that it was too much and concerns that TikTok users were going to leave or be turned off from using the platform. And to be sure, even after those complaints, I don't think there were any significant impacts to time spent or usage. In fact, kind of the opposite. But I think at the same time that's also brought greater demands or expectations around personalization. As Sonal mentioned, in part, that's due to the algorithms. So there's less tolerance for the irrelevant marketing. Like, I get mad at YouTube. It keeps showing me the same ads that have nothing to do with me or my interests. But I feel a little bit of affinity on Instagram where I can see ads for cute snacks that I might want to purchase. So I think when brands can go a step further and even engage more with the content, whether their owner for creators, there's even more acceptance of that.

[A]

So. So, you know, consumers are expecting more, right? So, Patrick, what does that mean on the brand side? How are you guys even responding or keeping pace when like Sonal said, there's always some new technology, there's always, even now a new channel, Everything is shoppable. I saw there was. Oreo was doing something on the sidewalk. I don't know if you guys saw that. Trying to make a sidewalk shoppable. I mean, there's just always something going on. So how are you guys thinking about that?

[C]

When I think about how we approach is just really trying to keep it interesting. And I've been in the marketing game for nearly 20 years, so I've seen things change so much. And so I think my everyday state of mind is understanding that change is inevitable and it's just happening every day. And so I just try to find ways to bake it into my strategy and to make sure the team knows that we're not doing same same, same, same is just not going to be able to keep us surviving in the landscape. And so I think always trying to listen to our customers, you know, I do all the things from read social media comments, exit surveys, focus groups as often as I can to just hear what our customers are interested in and what they want to see from us. And then a bit of it is, you know, spending time with the team and the creative team and finding out what stories can we tell to Sky's Point to keep people not only wanting to buy the product and invest it in the brand, but also to keep them entertained. And I think that trying to find ways to be able to do both, it's a puzzle that I'm constantly solving. And you always have to kind of look at it and evaluate and shift and change course. And so I think that from a brand perspective, I think it can be a lot of fun. And I've learned to find enjoyment in trying to ride the wave and to figure out where it's going to take us next. And I guess that's where the job comes in, is that most people want this to be easy. And ultimately it's not always going to be easy and it's not always going to be as plain as simple. And you have to always kind of evolve and change and find new ways to be able to, to reach the customer. And that's the way I approach my job and my life every day, is understanding that, you know, we're in turbulent waters and in order to get through, you have to, you know, I guess put on your life jacket and, and bring your team with you so you can kind of find the right way to be able to get back to shore. So, yeah, I think that's kind of how we're handling.

[A]

Yeah, no, I mean, it's so interesting, right, because you have access to so much data too. And so how do you lean into data but still trust your instinct and still keep it creative?

[C]

You know, I think that data and instinct, I consider them partners, not opposite. And I think that in a lot of organizations, you see these two teams fighting for a budget, fighting for attention. And what I have found more and more is that when you find a way to let the instinct kind of create the idea, but the data to be the guiding force to help you to fine tune and to find new ways to be able to, you know, make the idea better. You know, I love criticism and I love finding ways to be able to make something better. And my goal as a person and at work is to just be a little bit better every day and data or insights that allow us to, you know, create better campaigns. And I think that when you are not afraid to look at the data and see what it's telling you and to sometimes take an ugly look and say, it didn't work, guys, it didn't work, that's okay. The data said it didn't work or she's not interested, we loved it, she didn't. And sometimes that's okay as well. And maybe depending on what the KPI is, you know, maybe that's fine sometimes as well. So I think that data is just such a big part of my life and the way I'm looking at campaigns and both trying to figure out how to use our instinct and do something new and interesting and exciting, but at the same time be able to evaluate it with fresh, clear eyes and to, you know, be able to iterate off of things that we see working.

[A]

You hit a point that we talk a lot about at the office and with clients around. You know, we do experiments, we try, you get results. They might not be what you want. It's really hard sometimes though, to see beyond the noise, to know what's, what's really real and a success versus not. How do you guys think about in Snell? I know we talk a lot about this during the lead and the. And I'm sure as you were Talking to the D60 list folks, honorees, how are you guys think. How is everybody, how should anybody, I should say, be thinking about the KPIs to help distinguish between trial, error, tweak versus, like, try abandon versus like, oh, we didn't have the right KPI at all even in. In mind.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, in my conversations, what KPIs are shifting away from sort of the regular, you know, these are our revenue KPIs to, you know, are we engaging our target? How much are we engaging our target and then focusing the entire organization on that KPI. Right. So it isn't just the marketing's job, but it's also E commerce and the supporting functions job to focus on that single KPI. So one of the brands that has done really well with Gen Z in the last couple of years, they've really changed the way they think about the metrics and saying, if you're going after Gen Z, let's come up with some ways that we measure how well we're doing with that generation and then have everybody in the organization work towards that in this organizations that, you know, make sure that everybody's aligned. Right. So that's. Those are the. Some of the things that we're seeing is like a shift towards what do we really want to achieve to get to the business objective and how do we get everybody around to be responsible for getting us there.

[A]

Right. And Patrick, I don't know if you have anything that you guys like, specific KPIs that you guys are thinking about that you. That you can share with us? Maybe. Yeah.

[C]

I think that for every campaign we have sometimes different KPIs. And you know, as a brand marketer, a lot of what I am creating is stories that help express who we are and what we are meant to do and mean to the customer. Our goal is to make women feel beautiful and special for all their life's moments. And not every time when you communicate that, does that lead to a sale? Sometimes it plants a seed that then when you talk to your friend, they say they've also experienced the brand. And then you go into a store like Nordstrom, and then you see the dress on the rack. And so really, I'm just trying to sometimes be able to tell a story that lands in a way where someone can remember us and that we can enter their world. And so I think it really just depends on what the KPI is. And as a brand marketer, I have to fight every day to make sure that people understand the difference between performance and brand and what the different KPIs are. So I think that the way I see success is making sure those KPIs are really clear up front and that as a leadership team, we talk about them and to make sure that we're holding our teams accountable for work that were all agreed upon and aligned upon. And I think that's probably where a lot of people get into trouble, is that if there's no alignment from the leaders, then how can your team bring you back the result that you want? And that's why I think I just try to make sure that I'm really clear and really open to say, okay, well, this, you know, okay, well, our KPI is this. And it's not really executing against that. How do we move it and change it to ensure that, you know, it's not just a complete mess? And so I think that is what I use as my guiding force is just always understanding what the goal is and making sure that, you know, that the outcome lands around where the goal was meant to be and not let the noise and let everyone. Because I think that sometimes when the results come back in, people start to examine the campaigns based on every other KPI that they have set in their head. And you have a really clear picture when you can say, well, hold on, let's talk about this. What we said we were trying to do is this. This is what it did. If we want to look into that KPI, that just is going to have to be the next campaign. Because that's not what this campaign was about. And I think that really helps to, you know, make sure again, that we're all on the same page, all speaking the same language and all driving towards the same goals.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Boundaries.

[D]

I want to add to what Patrick said, to what I've seen is that there's now a little bit of A shift towards the old school brand measurements as well. Right there. We were so obsessed with the last click metrics for a long time, but I've noticed a lot of people talk about brand affinity and brand recognition, and that's where I see, you know, people going back to some of the older ways we measured brand success, which is.

[C]

So exciting, which is so exciting because I think that when you look at the equity in your brand and what people are saying about you as a brand, there are so many options, but the reason you want them to choose you is because, you know, they like what you do, they love your vibe, they love what you stand for. And I think that that's the way you develop a brand that has the. The ability to stand the test of time.

[A]

So we're going back to old school metrics, which is great news in some ways, but there probably are a lot of tactics that are played out. Are you guys seeing things that are from a tactical perspective, things that are working, things that have. We've been doing for too long and it's not working anymore? What's grabbing people's attention?

[C]

What I'm seeing is, I think that in this world of filters and celebrities and influencers, what I am seeing is that people are wanting something that feels real. And a lot of people are turning to social for both aspiration and guidance, and they want to find people who fit the same or similar mold that they fit in. And so when they hear stories that feel like their own or they see people who look like they're in a similar life stage or maybe, you know, on the same path that they're on, I think you see people relating to that. And so I think that it doesn't mean that glossy imagery is not necessary, because I'm sure there's a channel that needs that as well. But I think that when we're looking at our channel strategy, what I feel like I'm seeing a lot of is that you really have to find ways to be able to tell authentic stories, find ways to change your influencer strategy. So you're talking to real people with real stories and real lives and, and maybe jobs that are not just to influence. So I think it's kind of finding ways to be able to just be really authentic and real and to make sure that, you know, the content that we're creating is really resonating in a real way. I think people are looking for something they can touch and feel and it feels a little bit more realistic.

[B]

Yeah, we see that influencer marketing is still growing much faster than overall digital advertising and even social advertising in the US during our forecast period. But there's a paradox in there because there is some influencer fatigue taking place and less trust in that overtly sponsored content. But at the same time, there's real demand for unbiased testimonials, expert reviews, user generated. And I think that that trusted referral is becoming more and more important to help cut through the noise of just paid advertising. And so I think the shift in metrics is starting to reflect that as well as you're talking about. And we're seeing that more of the marketing spending is moving towards influencers or creators with the smaller followings. We forecast that more than half of it will go to influencers with less than 20,000 followers, which we consider to be the smaller or micro tiers of influencers in 2026. And I think that gets back to the basics of building the brand with smaller Personas, with real content and community, because they kind of go hand in hand to create this positive feedback loop and develop that brand affinity, that brand equity that Sonal and Patrick were talking about.

[C]

Yeah, I agree so much. One of my, one of my favorite pieces of content that we launch every week is a series we have called you and Lulu's. And it's just customers wearing our brand, you know, in all their moments, whether it's a date night or they're getting ready for prom or graduation or their wedding, and you get to see real people. It's like, okay, these are how real women wear our dresses and how they show up in their real life. And, and I think that tells a better story and really shows how practical the items are versus someone who's, you know, only wearing the brand because they're being paid and only saying nice things because they have a brief that told them exactly what to say. And so I think it's, you know, like, you know, while I'm sure we've all booked that person because you wanted the visibility, you know, I think as a marketer and as a person, I feel better when I'm working with people who really have a love and an interest in what we do.

[B]

And it's hard for brands to let go of that, directing the outcome with the brief and engaging in more of the dialogue or supporting creator or even regular user content. But it kind of has to go beyond just social listening, which is very important, into social dialogue, like responding to consumers, reading the comments, replying to DMs, if it's possible. But that's what really fosters a Sense of community. Community and the longer term loyalty to.

[A]

A brand and drives engagement. Right. The more, and I know it's an overused buzzword being authentic, but the more authentic you are as a brand and the people that you bring into your marketing campaigns, I think you also help to drive engagement. This, this went by so fast and I have so many more questions to ask you. So I think what I'm going to do is end on one last question which hopefully will be rapid fire ish in that in five sentences or less. If each of you will take turns. We'll start with Sky. I don't know if that was random. We could start with whoever. We'll start with Sky. I just wanted to ask you all if you could give brands one piece of advice for them to thrive in an always on world that's a little bit different or nuanced to what we've already just been talking about, what would that be?

[B]

Well, I think the next part, the big emerging trend that some savvy brands are always looking to and Sonal has flagged at the top of the conversation is that generative AI part. We've already started looking at how brands show up in generative AI search optimization and showing how brands will show up in chatbot conversations. And now with ChatGPT's new instant checkout feature, it's about how brands are getting their products ready to show up in that carousel for easy shopping, easy purchase within that, within the application itself, within that environment.

[D]

Sonal, what I've noticed is a trend towards brands hiring their customers or their influencers within their internal teams. So these customers, they know the brand and they know other customers, right? They understand that customer and they also the influencers, right? They know how to influence people. So I think hiring people with not traditional marketing backgrounds but people who know your brand or know how to do influencer marketing well is a really good piece of advice I would give to a lot of brands.

[A]

That's awesome.

[C]

And Patrick, we actually did talk about this a little bit, but I think it might be good to just double tap on this idea of authenticity. I think in an always on world, relevance matters more than volume. People come to you for a reason and I would say just to deliver on that reason and don't be panicked if they have other interests or other brands in their orbit. You know, I think that when we're looking to dominate their attention versus earn their loyalty and you know, I'm just more into the idea of instead of trying to overload your customer with countless emails and so many social posts. It's. How do you tell a story that feels like you're treating the relationship with some care? And I just think that. I know it's hard to get customers attention, and we're all fighting for, you know, the same. The same wallet, but it's really trying to find a way in a classy, less just annoying way to talk to your customer. And so I just think that, you know, the world is always on. And I think that as we have more touch points and more brands and more, you know, it's like more is not always more. So I would just try to find a way to be able to make sure that what you're doing is feeling authentic and is at the pace that your customer actually wants to hear from you and not because you're just trying to dominate their entire lives.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Let them have other interests.

[D]

I want to. I want to add to that because I feel like all brands now are sneaker brands. Right. Because sneaker brands had to be like, it's a wave of sambas and then the waves of ons and the new balance. Right. Every brand has to think like that they'll be on top, and tomorrow it'll be somebody else. And so they have to think ahead, you know, the next cycle when what's the next cycle that they're gonna ride? And I think that's how we all need to think about things.

[C]

Yeah, I love that.

[A]

Me too. What a great place to end. That's all the time we have for today. Thank you. Sonal, Patrick and Sky.

[C]

Yay. Thank you so much for having us. This was so much fun.

[B]

That was fun. Thank you, Suzy.

[A]

Thank you guys. And thank you. Thank you, listeners. And to our team that edits the podcast, please leave a rating or review and remember to subscribe. I'll see you for more reimagining retail next Wednesday. And on Friday, join Marcus for another episode of behind the Numbers, an E marketer podcast made possible by Fetch.