← Behind the Numbers: an EMARKETER Podcast
Behind the Numbers: an EMARKETER Podcast
Commerce Media Activations: From Strategy to Success | Behind the Numbers: Special Edition
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Sarah Marzano
Welcome to a special edition episode of.
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Mark Sestero
The E. Marketer podcast behind the Numbers. I'm Marcus and today we have a special episode from the eMarketer Summit, Commerce Media Trends 2025. From May 9, you'll be listening to a panel discussion exploring how leading brands are implementing successful commerce media strategies with.
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Sarah Marzano
A focus on network selection, integration with existing channels and optimization techniques.
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Mark Sestero
For Maximum the Marketer Principal Analyst Sarah Marzano hosts Mark Sestaro, Senior Vice President of Sales in North America for Infosum, and Nicolo Blazo, Senior Director, Media and Omnichannel of Kettle and Fire.
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Sarah Marzano
Here it is.
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Nicolo Blazo
Hi everyone. For those of you who are just joining us now, welcome. I'm Sarah Marzano. I'm a Principal analyst here at eMarketer. And for those of you who are coming from our keynote and Fireside chat. And thanks for sticking around. I'm really excited to continue with our programming. With our first panel of the day, which has been made possible by Infosum, we're going to be focusing on retail and commerce media activations and taking a look toward navigating the next phase. Before we begin, a quick programming note. Kineso's Elizabeth Neubauer Donovan unfortunately had unforeseen circumstances that will make her unable to join us today. We're going to certainly miss her perspective, but we have a fantastic group with us and I know that we're in for a great discussion. So to kick things off, I can't resist sharing a few key data points that I think will help set the foundation for our conversation. In 2025, we are forecasting that commerce media ad spending will reach nearly $70 billion with a growth rate of 19%. And that growth rate is set to accelerate in 2026. While retail media remains the dominant force, we're seeing new players from travel, finance and beyond enter the space, driving cross vertical activations, partnerships and really exciting new approaches for data driven marketing. So please join me in welcoming our panelists. We have Mark Sestero, who's the SVP of Sales for North America at Infosum, and Nicolo Gloazzo, Senior Director of Media and Omnichannel at Kettle and Fire. Before we get started, I'd love to invite each of you to just do a brief introduction. Tell us a little bit about your company and your role in the commerce media space. Marc, let's start with you.
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Mark Sestero
Sure. Thank you, Sarah. Excited to be here. Mark Sestero I lead our North America commercial business at Infosome, which is the world's leading data collaboration platform. There's a Lot of talk and a lot of growth around commerce and retail media. Specifically in the business of collaboration and helping companies connect and generate different types of insights with one another, we really are finding ourselves to be at the front edge of that. So excited for today's discussion and I guess I'll kick it back to you.
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Nicolo Blazo
Very exciting. Okay. Nicolo, what about you?
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Sarah Marzano
Yeah, thanks for having me, first of all. So I'm Nico. I've been actually with Catalan Fire now six years and I lead media and omnichannel. So I oversee dtc, Amazon and retail media. Retail media has been my focus for the past, let's say two, three years because the company is expanding mostly in retail and that's where the growth, majority of the growth is coming from. Catalina File itself is a bone broth company launched kind of a long time ago, I'd say in Austin by two brothers. And we make the best bone broth I think in America right now.
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Nicolo Blazo
Amazing. Austin, Texas is my hometown, so I have a soft spot for any company born there. But I'm so excited to have you both. I think you bring such a sort of fascinating perspective into where the industry is today and we should be able to have a really great conversation. So Mark, I want to start with you. Data collaboration technology, things like data clean rooms feel like they've really sort of gone from niche to necessity in commerce media. I'm curious how you've seen the use cases evolve over time as you. This technology really moves from the margins into. Into center stage. So what are you seeing there?
- [04:22]
Mark Sestero
Yeah, I think that's a great call out. It's kind of interesting from our perspective of Infosum, we've been market since 2000. We started in 2016. So we've been at it for a while. And one of the first types of business that we worked on was retail media networks. So we have seen this for a while. We've been in it for a while. The emergence and kind of the discussion points around it have continuously change and obviously they're more prominent now than ever before. But really what, what we're seeing is that it's more, it's more accessible like in, in a company like ourselves that's focused on interoperability and helping companies connect with privacy at the forefront of that, but in a seamless and scalable manner. This business throughout commerce is really just taken off. And I think a lot of that's not necessarily because of, not always because of new capabilities. It's about more awareness. Right. Being able to deliver kind of leads to more Trends, more knowledge. And that has scaled and scaled and scaled, just like the beginning stages of connected television or advanced TV in general. So I think it's a lot more about not always just technology. Again, we've been at it for a while. Certainly we've had our advancements, but it's the delivery, the effectiveness of collaboration across commerce, especially as it pertains to my remit within data collaboration and clean rooms. And we've just seen that grow to new customers, new advertisers, new businesses, new retailers, and then an adoption like from, from the ground up of the folks working at those organizations, what they're familiar with, how they're learning to come in with a case study, to come in with knowledge, where you're the first one to go, I think has. Has been really one of the biggest booms of that. So yes, certainly there's technology that has advanced. I don't want to downplay that, but one of the first things, like I said we did was, was retail media. So I generally think there's also a lot of credit to the people and the knowledge of what they're trying to achieve now.
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Nicolo Blazo
Yeah, no, absolutely. I think you did a great job sort of distilling the momentum that has kind of been brewing in this space. Like, I think for me as an analyst covering retail and commerce media, it's been fascinating to see how the utility of transaction data has really caught on in the world of advertising. And it feels like we're sort of just at the beginning of kind of scratching the surface on all the ways that can be scaled, which again is bringing things like data collaboration really front and center. Something we've talked about a bit today in the sessions we've had so far is the fact that the success of retail and commerce media over the past five years or so has given way to a surge of new entrants. And that's created what can feel like an extremely crowded and even chaotic landscape. So Nicolo, I'm curious, as a brand that began in D2C and then later expanded distribution into retail, it occurs to me that Kettle and Fire has had to quickly get up to speed in terms of navigating this crowded retail media ecosystem. So I'm curious how you today approach channel prioritization and budget allocation and how that system maybe has changed or evolved over time, as you learn.
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Sarah Marzano
Yeah, for sure. So definitely like Cabin and Fire have an advantage, I'd say, because as starting DTC first, a lot of the people within the team are like performance oriented. So it's kind of much easier when you are performance orient and specifically like digital native to start looking into the retail media ecosystem and trying to understand how it's working, you know, what type of tactic you can implement, how to test and validate idea etc. So that's definitely like an important piece. But from a channel standpoint I definitely recommend usually to start always at the bottom of the funnel first and then expand upper funnel unless you have a limited budget. Of course retail media however also cover in my opinion it's pretty sick because it covers like both bottom and you can also leverage for supporting like the funnel advertisement. Of course, bottom of the funnel simple sponsored product advertisement. The easiest one to launch and the one that are going to move as many units as possible. Because when you are at retail your goal is going to be always to drive velocity. So what you want to do is like okay, make sure to invest your dollars to tactics that actually support this goal. But at the same time you want to keep feeding the top of the funnel, the pool of people that become aware of your brand and are not aware of your brand just yet. So leveraging retail media in that sense their first party through other third party platform like DSP provider to kind of leverage those audience to make them aware of your product via their first party audience and then convert them to customer I think is like the right tactic for like a mid sized brand or large enterprise. I'd say from a budgeting meanwhile prioritization standpoint, I like to look at percentage of revenue. The easiest one that I like to look at is like percentage of revenue specifically for fork for, for a given retailer. So I like to say okay, for a given retailer, if the forecasted revenue is X, I'm gonna estimate that I'm gonna invest Y amount of dollars into retail media. That's very back of the napkin math. I know for that. But it's more than enough at the beginning just to get a sense especially if a brand is kind of small to get a sense of hey, this is how much pretty much I need to invest on retail media to support that given retailer. Then some retailer. They also have like a digital penetration goal that you need to hit. So that's an important metric you need to take into consideration when budgeting and forecasting the dollar that you want to invest for that retailer. And then a third component is going to be future opportunities. So sometimes you might want to, you know, certain retailer might have like a different like footprint compared with others. So the opportunities there are much, much higher. And so you want to make sure that you, you give enough love and, you know, enough support to that retailer that is going to help future scale because the opportunities are just so much, you know, more than other smaller retailer. Smaller retailers are great, especially if you're starting out, in my opinion. But then as you start to expand into those bigger, you know, mass channel, it becomes important to kind of weigh the investment accordingly with the future opportunity.
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Nicolo Blazo
That's so helpful. And I think for anyone who's watching this, who doesn't follow Nicolo on LinkedIn, I would highly recommend it because I think you're so generous with sharing the best practices that you've picked up. And what I love about the frameworks that you sort of just shared with us today is they feel really actionable and they also feel like they have wide applications for any of the brand marketers who are listening today who are feeling just really overwhelmed about how to get organized and sort of where to focus when there are seemingly so many places to focus. Mark, I think, you know, we've talked a bit about sort of like all the ways, all the opportunities, data clean rooms can position themselves to unlock, sort of doing more in retail media. I'm curious whether you see data collaboration as a potential solution or salve for fragmentation. Can you share any ways that you're helping brands or networks drive efficiency in the face of all of this chaos and busyness?
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Mark Sestero
Absolutely, yeah. I think that is one of the biggest solves in this space that data collaboration platforms or clean rooms enable. And the reality is there are so many different options, there's so many different ways to learn. There's businesses that are starting from the ground up, there's businesses that have been in market for a long time, but there's also retailers in the same position, some more advanced than others. So being able to connect and kind of sort through that fragmentation is where clean rooms should thrive. Being able to do that at scale, with ease and speed, which is, you know, one of the things that we're really proud of at Infosum. But all of that data, all of that opportunity is only as valuable as being able to leverage. Can't take 12 months to generate insights because you're too late, you already missed. So how quickly can you move? How quickly can you scale? How quickly can you build those networks? Whether they're just general data networks or something, we're very activin, which is a private data network, which is where a brand works with their specific partners and only those partners to cultivate whatever that those thresholds, those goals, those KPIs are, and then to do that essentially in the turn of a click, how can you do that in a day or two or three and run that out across the org? So I think fragmentation from my lens has actually been one of the biggest paths to championing clean rooms because we're able to work effectively and agnostically across all the sources. And when you're on the advertiser side, I think you owe it to yourselves if you're able to. To investigate all those different sources. There's such a, you know, there's a lot of experience out there, but there's also preconceived notions of what is valuable and what is not. And a good clean room, a good solution should allow you to actually and actively gain those insights rather than, you know, actively actioning on data downstream and then looking at it afterwards to see if it worked. I think you kind of missed the whole boat if that's your approach. I think there's so much more to learn upstream and to understand and to work with all of these partners. And yes, all of them may not be the perfect fit, but that is what the point of that collaboration should be. And that's kind of how we feel. We plug into that fragmentation really well. And that spans just media and other parts too.
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Nicolo Blazo
Yeah, that's great. And I think you tapped into a notion that I'm sure all of us and everyone in our audience can really relate to, which is that when you're in this space that's really heavy on analytics and data, more data is a very exciting thing, but you need to be able to contextualize it quite quickly and be able to make decisions without waiting for a long time before understanding it. So I'm glad that you sort of touched on that necessity of not only being able to analyze all the different data sets, being able to do that quickly so we can make decisions based on where the consumer is right now. So switching gears a little bit, I think for me, one of the most exciting parts about covering commerce media today is how quickly new formats and technologies are emerging. So everything from CTV and what a big role that plays in retail and commerce media, even directly shoppable integrations within shoppable tv, which is fun to watch, to things like digital signage in stores or smart carts that are able to sort of pick up on in stock levels and sort of proximity. So, Mark, my next question is going to be for you as well. I'm curious to hear how those emerging formats are changing the role of data collaboration. I think at a surface level, it sort of Feels like this is only another sort of tailwind, sort of increasing the relevance and utility of the surface that you offer. But I'm curious whether that's something that you're hearing from retail media networks who are excited about testing into new formats.
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Mark Sestero
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, from our lens, we obviously don't necessarily control the types of new, whether there's. We help enable the ability to evaluate those sources. Everyone has their right to create their own products or product lines, and certainly those can be driven through clean rooms. But from our ends, yes, that's very. It kind of goes back to exactly what I was just talking about earlier. The scalability of it. How do you productize that? How do you form stronger relationships? How do you customize offerings? How do you generate insights that weren't previously available or too difficult or too slow to enable? So I think those formats, those changes are definitely a huge part of this industry. And again, I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but scalability and repeatability are incredibly important. So if you can only create one of those formats and run it out every eight 12 months, six months, that's just too slow. And then on the advertiser side, how do you evaluate maybe the same format across 12 different partners at once? So the ability to connect, connect with privacy and connect quickly. And you just mentioned that before as well. There's a lot of kind of data that goes behind this. But a technology that's simple to use and easy to understand and generate insights from allows you to learn more about those formats and be at the forefront. I think the inverse of that is true. So it's not just for the advertiser. It's for those offering those new services. If they can do that at scale and with speed, then they've been more successful as well. And that's something that we're. We see a ton of, I think, and I know we'll kind of talk about this in a little bit, but there's a level of proactivity. It's not saying you shouldn't go to every advertiser and say, well, what do you want to see? Or, you know, we can do anything you want. I think you have to take that step to kind of offer and make some unique insights and kind of put your. Yourself in those, in their shoes. And that in terms of, you know, I'll kind of loop this on to new formats. But that is something that we're really proud to enable and we see a lot of success on, is leaning forward, not being reactive, saying we could do.
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Nicolo Blazo
Anything makes a ton of sense. And you know, you mentioned not wanting to be a broken record, but I think in this industry there are certainly some things that that bear repeating. Right. It's quite top of mind that a lot of networks are looking for smart ways to scale, but wanting to be able to bring those same performance outcomes that have made them so successful in their owned and operated channels to advertisers. Right. And we know that advertisers struggle to compare campaign results across really disparate networks and retailers who might measure things differently. Right. These are concerns that are quite top of mind. So fully forgive you for sort of coming back to those, those main challenges. Something this brings up to me, Nicolo, is that with so many new formats and you mentioned smaller retailers and larger retailers when you were speaking earlier, it occurs to me that the playing field isn't always even right. Some retailers have access to deeper budgets and more expansive store footprints compared to others. So I'm curious to hear how you're evaluating those really disparate opportunities as a brand and whether anything's worked in terms of layering in the different capabilities of the many partners that you're working with. Right. We know that consumers encounter many digital touch points and in person touch points on their path to purchase. So what have you learned from this sort of disparate landscape?
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Sarah Marzano
Yeah, so definitely the ecosystem is evolving a lot. What I'm noticing is, and what I've been testing in the past is even if a retailer is pretty small, but they are like it's the perfect opportunity sometimes to test new format and new placement. Depends on the budget of course, but is the perfect environment because there's probably less red tape than a larger retailer that might have more doors. So if you can test something like a new placement with a smaller retailer and then evaluate performance, I think it's a great starting point. However, like I was saying, always comes down to budget because sometimes some retailers, they might require a heavy investment compared with whatever is like their red, like their forecasted revenue for, for that branding that given retailer which might gonna change in the future. But at the beginning as a brand is starting out like that's a really important assessment because if a retailer is not, you know, it's not at that level just yet and you. And am I gonna ask you to invest like 100k to a shopper tactic or like to an in store digital brands might want to pull back in that sense and just leverage platforms like Instagram, GoPuff and DoorDash. But however, at the same Time. I'm very flexible with my budget. So what I like is to be fluid with the budget and where I see opportunity, being able to shift magic around among different retailer or different like placement. And that's why sometimes shopper tactic require like, you know, three, six months in advance like sign off, I.O. etc that lock brand in for like a little bit. Yeah, for a long time. Meanwhile, if you level leverage like retail media platform, it's like very easy to kind of turn on and off your advertisement effort. Digital signage and those type of placement I think are very interesting. And what I did in the past is always like to try to do as many a B test as possible. So for example, if you want to try digital like digital signage at Whole Food, you might want to run that test for like 50 stores and then you're going to assess the performance versus the other like stores so that in that way you're going to be able to somehow understand if that's an incremental revenue driver or not for your business. Even though it's not only about incrementality comes down also to kind of impression and making sure that your potential customer are going to see you multiple times along their journey. So that's multiple value, multiple considerations that you as a brand need to make in order to evaluate those type of shopper tactics or new placement that come in place that you know, retailer kind of show and put out there recently.
- [21:00]
Nicolo Blazo
Yeah, I love that you've highlighted the importance and benefit of being able to be very flexible and nimble into terms of like how you're planning and where you're investing and also how you have this appetite for testing into things seemingly pretty quickly. Right. Like, let's test this out, let's see how it's going. Let's get results that tell us sort of directionally whether the juice is worth the squeeze in order to take advantage of those moments as they arise. Right. I feel like that's a theme that's sort of emerging here in this conversation is being able to take the information that's available and make a decision quite quickly. And I think anyone who's been reading the news over the past few weeks sort of knows how quickly things can change from a consumer sentiment and economy standpoint. So it feels like this is a real sort of strength of this area. I don't think we're allowed to have a conversation about commerce media without touching on the topic of measurement. I'll plug that later in our programming. My colleague Sky Canavas is going to have an entire panel discussion session dedicated to the topic. But it's so top of mind that I want to field a few questions to you all on the topic as well. So measurement is something that is certainly evolving, but I think a lot of folks in the space maybe feel like it's not evolving quickly enough. So Nicolo, from a brand's perspective, I'm curious to hear from you whether there are pitfalls that advertisers should be wary of around focusing on maybe the wrong KPI's or flawed KPI's. Which KPI's are you using sort of the most? And is there an element of change management? Right. If you're encouraging your organization to take a more expansive look into measurement and evaluating success, I recognize that was like six questions in one. Sort of take that in the direction you want to.
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Sarah Marzano
Yeah, okay. Definitely. There's a lot of noise in the market right now when it comes to measurement. I feel like overall it's important to understand your current stage as a business, I'd say. But one KPI that I like to look at, even if it's very overrated and at the same time. So I don't like to look at that one. But I look into the ROS to compare super top line revenue high level across multiple platform. It's not the best, but it's the easy way to compare performance among different platforms. However, ROS is not my favorite one because a lot of retail media platform right now they also take into consideration in store sales within the attributed sales. Some have like 14 days attribution, some have like 30 days attribution. So Ross is really is not the best way in my opinion to measure performance. But then you can drill down into digital penetration. So understanding like correlation between like Ross or not Ross but your investment and digital penetration. So are you as you increase your spend level within like retail media, are you actually, you know, increasing your digital penetration? Yes or no. And then you're new to brand customer, are you actually actually bringing in new customer to the business or not? So if some of those questions, the answers to some of those questions kind of no, then it means that could be potentially the wrong channel or you want to reallocate the budget more top of the funnel or simply just pocket those dollars and investors elsewhere like influencer marketing or streaming tv et cetera. But smaller brand might be, you know, could be a little bit more difficult to invest in streaming TV or like some other other channels. But at more mature brand. I feel like running also incrementality test and leverage like third party solution that help you to kind of understand the impact that your streaming TV or like top of the funnel advertisement, paid social, so basically everything together, your marketing mix model, the impact that your marketing mix model has on your business overall, I think it becomes very, very important. And that's something that I'm trying to do more and more right now, which is not just like incrementality testing, but leveraging third party tools that allow me to understand how my marketing mix is going to influence like revenue at Walmart or Kroger or other retailers. So because right now as you start to scale and invest more and more dollars into your media mix, it's going to get more and more like muddy, let's say the overall ecosystem and the KPI part. So it's going to be really hard to tell the story to leadership as well, where you should invest your dollars and how many incremental dollar you need from a marketing standpoint to support the top line revenue goal that you have. So that's why it's important to leverage those third party tools to kind of build a better story for the leadership team.
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Nicolo Blazo
Yeah, no, that makes complete sense. And I think you've sort of set up perfectly this, this sort of generalized consensus that ROAS can be quite a blunt instrument. Right. It's a necessary tool, but it can't be a set it and forget it scenario. Particularly when you as an advertiser are tasked with with making the case for incremental budget. Right. And needing to sort of prove out the value of that budget, where it's going to be spent and why it's going to be spent that way. And there's so many nuances to take into account. So I'm glad you brought up the value of sort of third party agnostic players in sort of aiding both retailers and advertisers to that effect. Mark for you, when it comes to measuring the effectiveness of commerce media campaigns, I think there's tension that can sort of occur between the need for really granular insights and balancing that with the privacy limitations of data sharing. So I know that's sort of like the bread and butter of what infosam is doing, but I wonder if you can expand a little bit on that balance between those two levels of view into data.
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Mark Sestero
Yeah, absolutely. I think you're spot on. So there is definitely a balance between the privacy element and then just the nuanced specifics of it. And that's the balance that we've been developing and kind of tweaking ever since I've been here for the last almost five years now. And really that's also a byproduct of the market and different data sets available. So, you know, from our position, we have to be agnostic. We have to be able to support those that have, you know, their ambitions of being as granular as possible. We have to be able to support those in maybe certain categories or industries that have more privacy regulations than the average. Our core product ensures privacy across any type of measurement. So we're always confident in what we, what, you know, what role we play and how we help bridge that gap. So maybe a little bit of a, of a middle answer there, but generally that's, that's something that the parties have to kind of align on. We feel very comfortable that we're able to and confident and we've seen a lot of success in being able to help companies take a jump forward, to be more advanced than what they've done in the past because of the way that we approach data, because of the way that we are protecting the consumer from every step from beginning to end. And we've helped many organizations that said they would never get to someplace get there. So that, that's definitely a really big part of it as well. And then just for me just to kind of go back to what Nicola was saying, because I think it's really interesting, I think there's such an element of measurement, whether it's ROAS or whatever your KPIs are, that you're measuring on that that are always so important. But where I see success, and I wish maybe there was more, and I'm going to say this more generally, but it's also really nice when companies take a totally different approach. I think a lot of organizations get bogged down and trying to chase what they've always done and make it work together rather than looking at it a little bit separately and saying, what if we go this approach rather than I tweak this little thing, I tweak this little thing and I keep them harmonious the whole time. You know, you can appreciate that's not always the easiest thing to do. It's a bold step. But to me that's one of the exciting things that I've seen more companies start to adopt is just a total shift because I think there's a lot of room for improvement there. So I'm just kind of covering that, coming back to that because I thought it was a really interesting point and something that I'm excited about and passionate about.
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Nicolo Blazo
Yeah. And that, that tees me up. Well, we're running short on time here, but I have some closing questions for both of you and I think Mark, you've just teed yourself up well for the question I'm going to put you in the hot seat on a little bit here. You work with a lot of retailers and commerce media networks. I'm curious for anyone in our audience who's listening to hear about your perspective on which companies are sort of best positioned to succeed in this space. Like what are the building blocks, what is the organizational sort of mindset or anything else that you've noticed that that really are the hallmarks of a company that's ready to succeed in this space?
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Mark Sestero
Yeah, I think that's a great question and maybe this is a surprising answer, maybe it's not. But it's not about who has the best data, the most data or even the least amount of data. All of those are fit to be the right partners. And the most forward thinking for me it's, and for us really across all of our. Again, we've been at this for a long time, so we have a pretty good pulse on it. It's the ones most lean forward, the ones not waiting and asking what someone else wants. How do you take that leap? How do you showcase that your, your products, your features, your, your improvements are worth it and you're bringing something to someone else rather than saying, well what, what do you want? So I think it's just the forward leaning from commerce media to, to, to just publishers to advertisers, the ones willing to try and push and move and, and do that before something's perfect. I think in the environment of clean rooms they allow so many more protections that you don't have to get everything just right. You can keep evolving as you go and not wait. Again, I stress the same thing, but you don't have to wait 12 months. You should be able to do this in a day or an hour. So to me, the most, the most important part there and the best way to answer that is the most successful, the most exciting are the ones that are always moving and pushing the envelope and that could be different products, but it's really just leaning in and encouraging others and kind of thinking, getting them to think different rather than being reactive. So proactive versus reactive is probably the best way to shorten that and boil that down.
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Nicolo Blazo
Yeah, no, I was also thinking about the phrase not letting perfect be the enemy of the good.
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Mark Sestero
Yeah, that is a motto for sure. So yeah, that's a great way to say it.
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Nicolo Blazo
Awesome. I love that perspective. And Nicolo I'm curious again. I feel like you bring such a sort of great perspective and so much generosity in terms of your learnings as an advertiser navigating this space. Is there any closing thought, any kind of piece of advice that you would have for anyone in our audience who's listening from the brand marketer side who might be feeling overwhelmed with how to navigate this space and get really organized in their approach?
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Sarah Marzano
Yeah, so probably definitely like having like a 20, 80, 20 approach, I would say. Right. Like, so always focusing on those like opportunities or retailers that, you know, have the highest probability of succeed in the future or like, you know, from a, even from a, from a forecast of like opportunity or footprint or like, you know, door expansion. Focus on those retailers that have like the highest opportunity to become one of your top three top five retailer, I would say and start step by step knocking out one after the other. I don't have anything else from an accommodation standpoint because it's such an evolving space which is easy to kind of get like crazy about it. So always, in my opinion, focus on the top three, top five and then keep testing and iterating.
- [32:21]
Nicolo Blazo
Yeah, no, I think there's a ton of utility in that advice and also in acknowledging that the space is changing so, so quickly that again, we can't have said it and forget it strategies. We have to stay really nimble. Listen, that flew by for me. Thank you both so much for joining me. Thank you. Niclo. Thank you, Mark.