The Price of Politics: Taking A Stance Impacts Retailers' Bottom Lines with Dr. Marcus Collins of the University of Michigan | Reimagining Retail

Summary

Behind the Numbers: The Price of Politics - Impact of Retailers' Stances on Bottom Lines

Episode: The Price of Politics: Taking A Stance Impacts Retailers' Bottom Lines with Dr. Marcus Collins of the University of Michigan | Reimagining Retail
Release Date: June 18, 2025
Host: Sara Lebo
Guests: Sky Canavez, Paola Flores Marquez, Dr. Marcus Collins

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of EMARKETER’s Behind the Numbers podcast, host Sara Lebo delves into the intricate relationship between retailers' political stances, particularly regarding Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives, and their financial performance. Joined by regular panelists Sky Canavez and Paola Flores Marquez, and special guest Dr. Marcus Collins from the University of Michigan’s Ross School of Business, the discussion sheds light on how shifting DEI policies influence consumer behavior, brand loyalty, and overall market dynamics.

Defining DEI and Its Importance in Retail

The conversation begins with clarifying the term DEI—Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion—and its multifaceted implications within organizations.

Paola Flores Marquez [02:00]:
"I've always understood it to be an intentional effort on an organization's part to make sure that they're creating an environment that is exactly what it says, diverse, equitable and inclusive regard. Like in terms of race, ethnicity, gender, age, disability. Anything else?"

Dr. Marcus Collins [02:29]:
"...DEI, as an initiative, is an effort to drive heterogeneity within the workforce, create some parity with regards to their experience, that is equity, and ensure that there's access—which inclusion is speaking to."

The guests emphasize that while DEI has clear intentions, its interpretations can vary, making its implementation complex yet crucial for modern retailers aiming to foster a diverse and equitable workplace.

Political Climate and DEI Rollbacks

The episode highlights the political backlash against DEI initiatives, particularly following the Trump administration's stance, and how this has prompted retailers to reassess their DEI commitments.

Sky Canavez [03:33]:
"...a very broad, essentially war on DEI efforts from the Trump administration... some companies in retail had said that they want to, say, have 25% people of color in leadership positions or increase women in the boardroom to closer to parity with the general population. So these kinds of programs... have really come under fire and scrutiny..."

Paola Flores Marquez [06:18]:
"...this is just the latest iteration of a long-standing battle against affirmative action. They're using DEI as a new framework to dismantle it."

The panel discusses how political pressures have led some retailers to roll back DEI programs, fearing investigations or challenges, despite the potential negative impact on their brand image and consumer base.

Impact on Consumer Behavior and Brand Loyalty

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around how DEI rollbacks affect consumer trust and loyalty, backed by data and real-world examples.

Sara Lebo [07:52]:
"According to Pew, 52% of people believe DEI at work is a good thing compared to 21% who don't. And we've seen this in action... Walmart and Target warning investors about these risks."

Dr. Marcus Collins [09:06]:
"...those who are usually the loudest voice, the biggest advocates when it was convenient, experience the biggest backlash when it's not."

The conversation underscores that consumers, especially younger demographics like Gen Z, are increasingly valuing DEI commitments, leading to tangible repercussions for brands that retract their support.

Case Studies: Target vs. Costco

The juxtaposition of Target and Costco serves as a focal point to illustrate divergent strategies and their consequences.

Sky Canavez [09:34]:
"Placer AI has noted a consecutive four months decline in Target's foot traffic... while Costco has seen increases."

Dr. Marcus Collins [10:07]:
"Costco's vocal stance on DEI, even if subtle, signifies reliability. People seek brands consistent with their identity, leading to stronger loyalty."

Paola Flores Marquez [16:29]:
"Costco has a history of being really good on labor issues and quality. Their cultural myths, like the founder's stance on hot dog pricing, reinforce consumer trust."

The discussion highlights how Costco's unwavering support for DEI initiatives has bolstered its customer footfall, contrasting with Target's decline following its DEI rollback and ensuing consumer backlash.

Shifting Retail Strategies and Future Outlook

As the retail landscape evolves, the panel explores emerging trends and the future trajectory of DEI in commerce.

Dr. Marcus Collins [26:00]:
"Retailers are using more abstract terms like 'togetherness' and 'belonging' to navigate the DEI landscape under political scrutiny."

Sky Canavez [27:20]:
"Mass appeal retailers are becoming more bland, while smaller indie brands are directly interacting with their consumers without fear of mass-scale repercussions."

Paola Flores Marquez [29:37]:
"Backtracking on your stance is worse than taking a stance... you've alienated the people who are already on your side and have not gained anyone new."

The panel predicts that brands maintaining consistent DEI commitments will continue to thrive, while those wavering or diluting their efforts may struggle to retain consumer trust and loyalty.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Wrapping up, the guests emphasize the importance of authenticity and consistency in DEI initiatives for long-term brand success.

Paola Flores Marquez [29:59]:
"Don't backtrack on your stance. If you do, apologize, but don't waver in your commitments."

Dr. Marcus Collins [30:01]:
"Just do it."

Sara Lebo closes the episode by reinforcing the critical takeaway: Authentic and steadfast DEI commitments are not just ethical imperatives but strategic business decisions that significantly impact a retailer's bottom line and market positioning.

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Key Takeaways:

• Authenticity Matters: Consumers value genuine DEI efforts. Superficial or opportunistic gestures can lead to distrust and loss of loyalty.

• Political Climate Influences Business Strategies: External political pressures can force retailers to reconsider or retract DEI initiatives, often to their detriment.

• Consumer Loyalty is Shifting: Modern consumers, especially younger generations, prefer brands that align with their personal values and are willing to switch loyalty based on perceived integrity.

• Consistent Commitment is Crucial: Companies like Costco demonstrate that unwavering support for DEI can enhance brand reputation and consumer trust, even amidst political and social challenges.

This episode serves as a crucial guide for retailers navigating the complex interplay between political stances, DEI initiatives, and consumer behavior, underscoring the importance of aligning business practices with evolving societal values.

Transcript

[Sara Lebo]

Are your brand campaigns as effective as they could be? If you're only getting insights when the campaign is over, then the answer is no. To make better campaign decisions, you need real time measurement. You need lucid measurement by sint. Discover the power of real time brand lift [e-mail] insights that's cint.com insights. Hello, listeners. Today is Wednesday, June 18th. Welcome to behind the Reimagining Retail, an emarketer podcast podcast made possible by cint. This is the show where we talk about how retail collides with every part of our lives. I'm your host, Sara Lebo. Today's episode topic is how retailers political stances are impacting their bottom line. Before we get into that, let's meet today's guests. Joining me for today's episode, we have two podcast regulars. First up, it's Sky Canavez. Welcome back, Sky.

[Sky Canavez]

Hey, Sarah. It's great to be back.

[Sara Lebo]

Great to have you. Also with us, someone we have on the retail podcast less frequently, Paola Flores Marquez. Hey, Pau.

[Sky Canavez]

Hi, Sarah.

[Paola Flores Marquez]

Hi, everyone.

[Sara Lebo]

And also with us is a special guest, author and professor at the Ross School of Business at the University of Michigan, Dr. Marcus Collins. Hi, Marcus.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

Hi there. Thanks for having me.

[Sara Lebo]

Thanks for being here. Go blue.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

Go blue.

[Sara Lebo]

All right, it's June, which means it's Pride Month. This year's pride comes as many companies roll back their DEI efforts. Companies like Amazon, John Deere, Lowe's, and notably Target have made changes to DEI policies that have made headlines. Before we jump into how that's impacting retail, I want to make sure that we're on the same page here, because dei, diversity, equity and inclusion can mean a lot of different things. So, Pao, I'm going to put you on the spot here and start with you. What do we mean when we say dei?

[Paola Flores Marquez]

I mean, at its most basic, DEI stands for diversity, equity and inclusion. But I know we don't have a specific definition for it, and I found it difficult to find anything that's, like, universally accepted. I've always understood it to be an intentional effort on an organization's part to make sure that they're creating an environment that is exactly what it says, Right? Diverse, equitable and inclusive regard. Like in terms of race, ethnicity, gender, age, disability. Anything else?

[Sara Lebo]

Yeah. Anything to add to that from your perspective, Marcus?

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

I mean, I can only co sign. Essentially, there is meaning and there's intent.

[Paola Flores Marquez]

Yeah.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

And to Paul's point, there's an intent that De and I, as an initiative, is an effort to drive heterogeneity within the workforce, but also create some parity with regards to their experience, that is equity and ensure that there's access which inclusion is speaking to. However, though that might be the intent, its meaning is just as heterogeneous as diversity is itself.

[Sara Lebo]

Meaning that there are a lot of different meanings to it.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

Absolutely, yes.

[Sara Lebo]

Yeah. I mean, in political discourse, in retail, we have it meaning like a lot of different really squishy things being compared to, like the word woke, which also has a lot of squishy definitions. Let's talk about retail specifically, though. So we've seen these DEI rollbacks. What changed this year when President Trump took office in how retailers were thinking about DEI and Sky? I'll go to you first for the retail perspective.

[Sky Canavez]

Sure. So I think there's a very broad, essentially war on DEI efforts from the Trump administration. They want to banish it not only from the government and public sphere, but there have been threats or implied threats against private businesses as well for their DEI programs. And here we're not talking about the fuzzy values or lip service, but I think more towards the specific programs with goals and objectives. And some companies in retail had said that they want to, say, have 25% people of color in leadership positions or increase women in the boardroom to closer to parity with the general population. So these kinds of programs, I think, have really come under fire and scrutiny and could potentially face some kinds of investigations or challenges from the administration. And that's where I think retail companies really got spooked about what could happen to them and started to roll back and kind of, you know, follow the administration's line a bit closer in terms of walking back programs and starting to say that they're not going to, you know, feature them as prominently. Now, that puts them in a real bind because, of course, for retail and companies in general, you want to both appeal to a broad base of customers, diversify your audience, but also your internal employment pool very much depends on a diverse workforce. Few companies are going to do themselves any favor by limiting their hiring or positioning themselves as environments that would not welcome a diverse workforce.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

And I mean, I think sky is spot on. I mean, truly, if we're being totally honest here, the word or the phrase DEI signifies anything that's not heterosexual. Cisgendered white male like that has become the orthodoxy. And the change has happened since Trump took office is that he has taken an ideological approach to a policy that anything that is any semblance of diversity, heterogeneity, equity, parity, or any inclusion that is access to people who sit outside of the hegemony, then those things are in direct ideological opposition to the administration in every facet of the country, considering the imagination they have of the country. So every institution from business to retail to government to education to social services are now being clouded in this idea that is antithetical to the intent of dei.

[Paola Flores Marquez]

Yeah. Actually what we're seeing is the latest iteration of a long standing battle that they've had, like against affirmative action. Right. Like this is just the latest version of it. And they see DEI as an embodiment of affirmative action. To a certain extent. It's just a new way, a new framework that they're using. Yeah, but it's been a long standing conversation and like effort, I think it's just escalated to the point where they're actively using government tools to dismantle it.

[Sara Lebo]

Yeah. In the interest of like, answering the question of like, why would a retailer roll back DE and I, there are, I think, retailers that maybe won't be as impacted by rolling back these efforts. Maybe because their efforts weren't changing things very much. But there are either like retailers with a conservative shopper or retailers that just have been quiet about everything always, that honestly probably won't be impacted or maybe could even benefit from rolling back DE and I. But for the most part, the data doesn't support that. According to Pew, 52% of people believe DEI at work is a good thing compared to 21% who don't. And we've seen this in action. Consumer backlash over DEI rollbacks has resulted in Walmart and Target warning investors about these risks. And in addition to that, 53% of Americans feel disappointed when brands stay out of social conversations entirely, according to Gibbsly. So there is data that shows that rolling back on this can lead to trouble, as it seems like it has for Target.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

Absolutely. I mean, Target in particular faces significant amount of backlash in rolling back its DEI efforts because in many ways Target was seen as an ally. This seemed like one of us. This seemed like they were invited to the cookout, as some would say. And for them to roll back their, their DEI efforts because of pressure they were getting from the administration or the social pressures in general felt like a betrayal. And people said, yo, that's, that is antithetical to everything you said you are about. But for other retailers, as you mentioned, Sarah, that are sort of prototypically conservative, whether in their stance or their patrons, it didn't make that big of a deal because, like, we expect that of you. But for Target, that wasn't what was expected and considering the posture and the kinetics of brands post George Floyd, there was so much talk about like, we're going to focus on diversity, we're going to be down for the cause. And the minute that it became inconvenient, we started to get rollbacks. And that's problematic. And why, that's why you see the ones who are usually the loudest voice, the one that was the biggest advocates when it was convenient, experience the biggest BL blowback when it's not.

[Paola Flores Marquez]

It's the betrayal. There's a sense of betrayal.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

That's right.

[Sara Lebo]

It's poignant that this is happening five years out from when George Floyd was murdered. On the other side of this, we have Costco doubling down on dei, at least in like its publicity efforts, which means that that Target consumer, if they are able to, can trade up to Costco or could trade down to a cheaper Walmart product and that that could be a struggle long term.

[Sky Canavez]

Right. It can be hard to, you know, make the direct relationship between the positions and what's happening in stores, but Placer AI, which tracks the foot traffic data in stores, has noted a consecutive four months decline in Target's foot traffic for probably every week, while at the same time Costco has seen increases in its foot traffic. And Costco of course has, has stuck to its previous DI position and rebuffed attempts to have it. You with Target and other retailers that have shifted their stance.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

I mean, the interesting part is that I don't even know if people really know what Costco's DEI efforts are or what their stance are, but the fact that they're being vocal, but the fact that they are standing up when others are folding, it's enough, right? It's almost just the gesture is enough because of what it signifies. That's a really powerful thing. There's a scholar named Ivan Ross who would say that people purchase brands of branded products or they consume when things are consistent with or in some way pushes forward their ideal identity, project who they want to be, right? And when a brand is no longer congruent with who I am consuming from it or consuming it becomes antithetical to my identity. There's a great cognitive dissonance that happens there. And people go, people either say I'm going to stop or they find ways to justify it, right? They go through some cognitive acrobatics to help justify acting in ways that are out of sync with their ideas or their ideologies. And you know, brands like Target becomes a very, very easy Target. Pardon the Pun. Because there are other options that can help supplement. And I think this actually gets down to like the nitty gritty of it all. And it kind of sucks to hear. This is a tough pill to swallow. But in most cases, in most cases, lots of retailers are parody, but people can't really tell the difference. Yeah, the cost difference aren't that great. One may be more convenient than another, but we're seeing that race to convenience being leveled out. Right. And. And if one thing is no longer aligned with who I am, the switching cost becomes much, much more affordable.

[Sky Canavez]

Yeah. And this is, I think, where things like the loyalty and membership programs come into play. Like Costco is a membership retailer that fosters a lot of loyalty from its members because they're paying to be part of Costco. And Target is really trying to ramp up its paid membership program, target circle 360 as a path to future growth and turning around a lot of other issues it's been grappling with in addition to its DEI rollback. And the real challenge is that it's kind of alienated some of its most loyal customers who be the ones who would pay to be a Target Circle 360 member and now might say, no, your values don't align with mine in this fundamental way. They're not going to pay for the extra added conveniences that Target might offer with its membership. And they're also up against the Walmart plus and the Amazon Prime. So it's becoming very competitive. Once I think a retailer can get a customer to kind of buy in to pay for membership, then there are a little more added switching costs that, you know, might keep them with the retailer a little longer.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

But that loyalty one is a tricky one because loyalty isn't monolithic. There are different forms of loyalty. There's a marketing scholar named Kirsten Nordheim who talks about marketing, talked about loyalty as the three H's. There is hand loyalty, which is habitual, a thing that we just normally do, Right. Like I normally get the Crest toothpaste with the sculpt mouthwash. That's what I normally get. It's just my thing. And I just go. When I go into cvs, I get it because that's what I normally get, Right. But the minute that that Crest with the Scope mouthwash is gone, I go, oh, man. Do you think I'm leaving to go to another retailer to get that Scope, that Crest? No. I'm now saying, all right, what's here now? And in that moment, Crest runs the risk of losing me.

[Sara Lebo]

Yeah, right.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

Because it was only habitual. Then she says, well, then there's head loyalty. And head loyalty is this load to where we're constantly buying the thing that we can rationalize because the value propositions are better. Right. I'm buying from this thing because it's cheaper or it has more fluoride in toothpaste or whatever the case may be. Right. And so long as your toothpaste has more fluoride, I'll continue to pick you. And then the last level of loyalty is the most special, and that's heart loyalty. It's like, I can't explain it. I just love it. I just love it. I love it. That's why I go, I love it. I love it. And if you would ask me six months ago, which retailers do you love? Target would have been the top of the list. Right. Like this used to be our routine. I take my daughters Georgia and Ivy to go to Ivy's swim lesson. We'd go get pancakes after a swim lesson, and then we go over to Target to do some, some light shopping. Right. And the kids loved it.

[Sara Lebo]

Yeah.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

But post the roll back of Target's DEI commitment, I was like, yo, I can't do it. It is out of sync with my identity to go to Target. And those first couple of weeks, my daughters are like, yo, we're not going to Target. What's, what's good? What's happening here? Right? They go, no, let me explain to you why we haven't stepped foot in the Target since January. Since January. And one would say I was a loyal Target customer. Well, we loved it. And there was habituality there. But because of the head loyalty completely pulled me out of that cycle. That's unbelievably powerful when we think about the ways in which we create golden handcuffs to make it harder to switch to your point sky when those systems aren't there, who. It's really easy to lose someone.

[Sara Lebo]

And this isn't just anecdotal. According to an Ad Age Harris poll, nearly 1 in 5 US adults have stopped using or purchasing from a brand because of its DEI approach being changed. And for Gen Z, that's 40%. We talk a lot about, like, like what people claim not being consistent with their behaviors, but I think that we're seeing, like, an actual impact here. In fact, companies that held firm on DEI commitments saw reputation scores rise by an average of 1.5 points in the Axios Harris poll. 100.

[Paola Flores Marquez]

Yeah, I think that consistency aspect is super important. Right. Like going back to the Costco example Part of the reason Costco is benefiting so much is not just because it offers like a viable alternative to Target, but also because it has a history of being really good on labor issues. Has a history of being really good about quality. Right. Like the Costco Kirlean brand is like notorious for being like standing up to its competitors or whatever it is duping. And then there's like the infamous hot.

[Sara Lebo]

Dog incident where may or may not have happened.

[Paola Flores Marquez]

I'm going to believe it. I choose to believe it.

[Sara Lebo]

Can you say what that is for listeners that might not be familiar with it?

[Paola Flores Marquez]

Was it someone on the board or maybe one of the owners?

[Sara Lebo]

It was the founder.

[Paola Flores Marquez]

The founder of Costco. When someone told them that they were gonna raise the price of the hot dog, a combo of a Costco hot dog and a soda for 150, the founder said that he would kill him.

[Sara Lebo]

Which, like, if they raised him might be an old wives tale, but like is kind of iconic mythology.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

That's folklore. Yes, exactly.

[Sara Lebo]

Amazing.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

I mean, and like we would say that that is cultural production. Those kind of things are unbelievably powerful. And to your point, they become the receipt that this company is about, that life. So when the winds may blow, These guys are 10 toes down.

[Paola Flores Marquez]

Costco rises a hero in trying times to save us all.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

That level of commitment, people go, it's safe to shop here. Because it's always going to be congruent with my identity such that I believe this thing, I can rest assure that Costco's always going to stand strong. And in a world where consumption is so conspicuous, where I go, what I eat, where I shop, what I wear, what I do, these things are constantly present in public, in our public social lives, 1000% thanks to social networking platforms, of course. But since so much of our lives are public, that creates more opportunity, more variability to put our confidence in jeopardy that if I buy the wrong thing, this guy goes, marcus, why you do that? I go, oh, I didn't know. But if I can count on something, because they stand the test of time, no matter where the wind blows, they stay plumb shoot. That is that. That is a great identity project for someone. It's a great strategy for which I'm able to ensure that my actions are aligned with my belief and I don't find myself in cognitive dissonance or run the risk to be to the peril of potential social currency damage.

[Sara Lebo]

Yeah.

[Paola Flores Marquez]

I think it also offsets any other negotiations we might make. Right. Because at the end of the day, like, we're all constantly negotiating between, like, our ideals and our survival. So, like, sometimes we do have to make those concessions and make purchases that we don't completely feel okay with. But if I can make other purchases that kind of offset that, then I feel a little bit more comfortable with the fact that I had to concede on a certain point.

[Sara Lebo]

Yeah, that's right. But before we jump, like, to even deeper into shopper patterns, which I really want to do, let's talk about quickly about, like, Pride, specifically. Retailers seem quieter this Pride month. Roughly two in five companies plan to reduce Pride related engagements this year. None expect to increase them, according to a survey from Gravity Research. Why? I mean, I think we have, like, some suspicions of why this is. But, like, what. What is happening here?

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

They weren't convicted to begin with. It became a opportunity to ride the zeitgeist, benefit from the zeitgeist in an effort to potentially drive commerce. And the minute it becomes inconvenient to do so, you back away, but not really about that life. And I think that, like, we constantly see this over and over and over and over again. You project conviction, but it's really an act of convenience. And once it's inconvenient, you bend. And I think that, like, post 2023, after Dylan Mulvaney with Bud Light and then Target got really hit hard because of their. Their Pride apparel, like, it's been a. It's been a slow decline since. Slow. The last two years just been quieter and quieter. People are less likely to stick their toes in the water, especially considering the red waters that run today.

[Paola Flores Marquez]

Yeah, I think that's a major aspect in terms of, like, there's a level of unpredictability, I guess. Like, we. We just have never been in a situation where the government has been so forceful in its, like, scrutiny of these sort of policies. Right. And we don't know what tools are going to use to crack down on it if they do decide to double down on that. Right. And so I think people are being submissive preemptively, which we shouldn't.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

But don't nobody want that smoke. That smoke.

[Sky Canavez]

Everybody's dodging it, at least publicly. Fac. Internally. They still have to, you know, nurture and support their employees. And you can't really afford to alienate or lose a large number, significant share of employees who are, you know, diverse. The LGBTQ employees, you know, are really everywhere. So I think for companies, they still have to. They're trying to balance that, you know, publicly saying nothing, but internally providing support.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

That's the sucky part, too, because you hear that. I hear that from clients all the time going, I don't agree what they're doing. I don't think that's right. But, you know, what are you going to do? And I can't help but think about a song from Destiny's Child.

[Sara Lebo]

Sure.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

Say my name, say my name. If nobody's around, you say, baby, I love you. You ain't running games. Say my name. Say it in public if you love me. If you about it, claim it. Say my name. Exactly. Exactly. I think that. And if you don't, you go, oh, man, you're not really in this with me. Like, you're not really in it. And that, that sucks. To be an employee in that kind of organization sucks because you're basically parking your identity at the door but being asked to bring all of you to work. Come on.

[Paola Flores Marquez]

Is this a good time to mention or to bring up again what we kind of discussed previously about, like, the weird sort of conflicting nature of the corporatization of pride? Right. And how, like, we are so against, like, companies kind of getting involved in that because you're like. Because it kind of dilutes it or it makes it cheapens or whatever. But at the same time, you want that level of acknowledgement and you want that level of involvement and you want that level of support because it offers a degree of normalcy. Right. That it is like something that's not out of. It's something that should just be a given. Right. That people can just operate in these spaces without being discriminated against.

[Sara Lebo]

Yeah. And we're seeing about 25% of corporate donors to New York City's pride celebrations canceling or reducing contributions. I to want, like, zoom back into retail, though, because, like, we can have this conversation about ideals, which is great and we need to have. But, like, what happens from here on out? Will people just sort of forget about this and move on? Will this remain in the zeitgeist? I think that even if people sort of forget about these political tones right now and move on, they may still have discovered alternative products that they will then continue to buy.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

They have new habits, there's new habituation in their consumption. You go, now I'm a Costco guy. You know, I used to be a Target guy. Now I'm a Costco guy. And, you know, there's a part of the brain called the basal ganglia where habits are constructed and formed and shaped. And you can have a brain damaging incident and the basal ganglion stays intact and you'll still continue to do those habits. Like, that's how powerful habituation is. So to this idea of what happens when we have some elasticity and we snap back to where we were, though, that the zeitgeist may change our behaviors, may be pretty, Pretty stuck. And for those retailers, you might be.

[Paola Flores Marquez]

Pretty cooked for a while, at least. I mean.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

For a while.

[Paola Flores Marquez]

Yeah. Like, I don't know. I. I still have it pretty fresh in my memory when Chick Fil? A was, like, against gay marriage in California and all this other stuff. And I was never a Chick Fil, a major shopper anyway, so I guess I'm not the target audience, but I. On that principle, I still haven't shopped there, but I have many friends who do, and they're just kind of like, it's fine, whatever. Like, Like, I have gay friends who shop there and they're just like, whatever. I love the food. I'm going to keep doing it anyway. And so I think that there's, like, giving a level of distance that comes with it as well. And I don't know, again, negotiations that we make every day.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

And I think you're absolutely right. And those negotiations don' Happen in the individual. They happen in the collective. Right. They're negotiating constructive with our people. They're socially created. And to your point about Chick Fil? A retailer, in this case mean, you're right. Like, there was discourse about some things happen with Chick Fil? A, but yet some people were able to normalize, they were able to justify it. And much of that is because there isn't as much parity when it comes to Chick Fil? A product. That's true.

[Sara Lebo]

Yeah.

[Sky Canavez]

So they'll make an exception for.

[Paola Flores Marquez]

Exactly, exactly.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

And we do the same thing with Amazon. We go, oh, man, I don't like the way they treat their employees, but I want my dog food tomorrow. So until there's another option that's just as good, that's when we're ruling the flip.

[Sara Lebo]

Well, we talk about value a lot on the podcast, and we talk about it in comparison to price. Value incorporates a lot of other things beyond price. And values are sort of something that gets folded in there as well. Like your social currency also is folded into value. Before we wrap up, I want to talk about where DEI goes next, because for all of this, like, conversation that we've had, as we all know, queer people aren't going anywhere. The values that are associated with DEI aren't necessarily going anywhere, but we're seeing a lot of other language emerging that I think is a safer way of encompassing it.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

Yeah. You hear words like, you know, we're focusing on togetherness and belonging and those things are even more abstract than DEI itself. Right. And as a result you create sort of this haze that allows you to operate but still be in the confines of the social forces that are being pressed upon us based on the current administration that we sit inside. And to me it sort of feels like instead of saying that we are dating, instead you say we're in an entanglement. What are we talking about here? You know, like I think situationship. Exactly. Situationship. Exactly. It's like we need, in a time where there is the threat is greatest, we need more specificity, more concreteness than more abstraction.

[Sara Lebo]

Yeah. I mean, and that is something that retailers that cater to maybe a more conservative client are already doing. They're like Black Rifle Coffee, for example, is like full chested, saying what their values are and that does resonate with their consumer. And then you're sort of seeing some wishy washiness on the other side. Not universally though. You know, we see Ben and Jerry's trying to cut itself off from Unilever.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

So.

[Sara Lebo]

So yeah, yeah.

[Sky Canavez]

I think it's really that mass appeal general retailer or brand that's trying to have as wide a consumer base as possible and really getting. Becoming more bland in the process. And we see on the, on the other side, on the more progressive side, smaller indie brands that speak directly to their customers and stick with their values. A big one is E L F Beauty. They, they've been a champion of DEI and a lot of other social causes and they stick to that and they're very vocal about that. And that's a large brand. But I think we see a lot of niche brands that are able to more directly interact with their consumer without fear of reprisal on a, on a mass scale.

[Sara Lebo]

Yeah. Marcus, you work with elf, right?

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

Yeah. So I'm really close to the folks at elf and you're right, they are ten toes down their belief. And I think that, you know, the literally supports this too, this idea of like mass scale. Let's like stick to the middle, you know, the, the average consumer, the average American.

[Sara Lebo]

But an average doesn't exist. An average is a mean of extremes.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

It is the worst strategy ever because those people are practicing a risk aversion strategy. That is they're not gonna be the first to buy, the first to download, the first to watch, the first to visit, the first to eat. They're not gonna do anything first. They're gonna look to see what everyone else does before they do anything. So trying to appeal to those people is like, it's erroneous. It's a flawed approach. The people who are most likely to move are the people who believe. And those people then enter the discourse on your behalf to convince the people that are less likely to move. I'm to trust you, Sarah, than I am to trust an ad that I see. But your conviction and our relationship is more likely to convince me than anything else. Because coaching was formed the basis of one simple question. Do people like me do something like this? Right. This is what Seth Godin constantly preaches. Do people like me do something like this? It doesn't happen the advertising. It happens between people. The negotiation process and the advertising becomes the manner in which we justify our stance.

[Sara Lebo]

Yeah, I don't know if we're going to get a more specific takeaway to end on than that quote from Marcus. Appealing to the average is the worst strategy ever. Any final thoughts before we wrap up?

[Paola Flores Marquez]

Oh, yeah, I think once again, I said this in the article a couple of weeks ago. And I said I'll say it again. Like, backtracking on your stance is worse than taking a stance. Okay. Like, backtracking your stance means that you don't stand for anything. And then you've alienated the people who are already on your side and you have not gained anyone new because they already don't identify with you. So, like, don't do that. Or if you do that, apologize. Don't do it.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

Just do it. That's right.

[Sara Lebo]

Great. Well, thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Sky.

[Sky Canavez]

Thanks for having me back.

[Sara Lebo]

Thank you, Paola.

[Paola Flores Marquez]

Thank you so much. This was fun.

[Sara Lebo]

And thank you so much, Marcus. It was a pleasure to have you.

[Dr. Marcus Collins]

I'm super grateful. Thank you.

[Sara Lebo]

Thank you to our listeners and to our team that edits the podcast, who all make me feel a sense of. Of belonging. Please leave a comment or review and remember to subscribe to behind the Numbers. We'll be back next Wednesday with another episode of Reimagining Retail. And on Friday, join not Marcus Collins, but Marcus Johnson for another episode of behind the Numbers, an E marketer podcast made possible by Cint.