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Behind the Numbers: an EMARKETER Podcast
TikTok and Instagram’s Push Into Living Rooms | Behind the Numbers
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- [00:00]
Rahul Chadha
In marketing, everything must work seamlessly. Otherwise, efficiency, speed and ROI all suffer. That's too much suffering. Quad, however, is obsessed with making sure your marketing machine runs smoothly with less friction and smarter integration. Much smarter. Better marketing is built on Quad. See how better gets done at www.quad.com buildbetter. Hey folks, it's July 21, 2025. Minda Smiley, Paul Vernon and listeners, welcome to behind the Numbers, an emarketer video podcast made possible by Quad. No, I am not in fact, Marcus Johnson doing a superb American accent. I am your guest host, Rahul Chadha, director of Reports Editing. Stepping in for Marcus, joining me for today's conversation, we have Vice President of Content based in Maine, Paul Verna.
- [00:51]
Paul Verna
Paul, welcome. Hey, great to be here, Marcus. I'm sorry, Rahul, it's easy mistake to make.
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Rahul Chadha
Also joining us, we have Senior analyst covering social media based in New York City, Minda Smiley. Thanks for being here, Minda.
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Minda Smiley
Yes, thank you. Excited.
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Rahul Chadha
Awesome. But first, before we get to the topic of the show, today's fact an EV just broke the world record for going the longest distance on a single charge. The car, a lucid Air Grand Touring model, went roughly 749 miles between St. Moritz, Switzerland and Munich, Germany earlier this month. For some context, that's roughly the distance from New York City to Atlanta as the crow flies. So that bested the previous record of 649 miles set by a Mercedes Benz EQS450 plus. That does not roll off the tongue. And that happened just a month prior in June when the car traveled between two cities in Japan. EVs are set to account for more than a quarter of cars sold worldwide this year, according to International Energy Agency. So yeah, just a little tidbit about EVs now to pivot though, for today's real topic, the blurring of social and streaming. In June, Kaya Uriev and Cali Huang of the Information reported that both TikTok and Instagram were working on apps intended to allow people to access those services on their televisions. According to the report, Instagram's app could, quote, show content like it's real short form videos, end quote. TikTok, meanwhile, has been working on a new TV app that the Information said was intended to, quote, attract older viewers and capture the higher advertising rates that come with connected TV as opposed to social media. Now, this topic is based largely on mind as U.S. social Video 2025 report, and you get into a lot of these topics in quite, you know, granular detail. But I just wanted to get Your take, first of all. So what's your take on TikTok and Instagram's efforts to secure a spot in living rooms?
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Minda Smiley
Yeah, I have to say it wasn't surprising to me. If anything, I'm surprised it took this long, to be honest. And I think there are really a few reasons for that. I mean, on the one hand, social, you know, social networks have a history of copying one another and trying and really trying to see what works and how they can essentially copy whatever their rivals are doing. We saw that with Snapchat Stories more recently, we saw that with TikTok and then we saw reels and shorts. And it seems like this is just kind of the next thing these social networks are seeing how well YouTube has done the living room and how they've really kind of cemented themselves as, as, as one of the top streamers, if not the top streamer, which Paul can speak more to that. But YouTube is definitely a force right now. So of course, TikTok and Instagram, which are really video first social networks, are going to see how they can emulate some of that and, and rival them in a capacity that isn't just in, in the, you know, purely social realm. Obviously Instagram Reels, TikTok and YouTube shorts all compete with one another, but now it looks like Instagram and TikTok want to compete in the living room as well.
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Rahul Chadha
I think one of the interesting things about this that jumped out to me was just the nature. I mean, I remember when so much was made of vertical video and how a big kind of pivot that was from portrait style video. I remember you used to get lambasted online if you didn't, you know, shoot your video in portrait. I mean, I'm sorry, in landscape mode. Do you think, like, the nature of vertical video is going to be a challenge for adoption for these apps in terms of like people watching them on tv. Is it just a fundamentally different experience, you think, for viewers?
- [04:15]
Minda Smiley
You know, I think to some extent, yes. I, there's been, I think lately we've been hearing a lot of people talk about how people, you know, YouTube has been talking about this, but I've also heard marketers talk about this as well, which is that people do watch YouTube shorts on TV screens now. I think there is some nuance there in that the YouTube interface is just very connected. You know, when you're on YouTube, you can toggle between a longer form video, a shorter video, a short, what have you. So I think that, you know, I don't know if there are A ton of people explicitly going to YouTube to watch shorts on TV screen. I think it may be just kind of what happens more organically than that. Again, that's something I feel like maybe Paul could weigh in on. But I do, I. I do think it is somewhat of a challenge. But I also think we've just become, you know, as like a society, we've become so accustomed to. To watching vertical videos. I was even talking to a marketer recently who said they recently made an ad for streaming for TV that actually just featured vertical videos because they know that's just what catches people's eyes. That's how people are used to seeing videos now. So they're kind of, you know, they actually wanted to make the video vertical for the TV screen and the ad just because they thought it would resonate with their audience. So I think there are some challenges there, especially when you think about, like, the premium versus maybe not premium argument of sort of like, you know, how are people kind of viewing the. This. Viewing these videos and do they consider them premium and what does that mean for advertisers and whatnot? But I do think more generally there is an appetite there to watch vertical video on TV screens.
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Rahul Chadha
Gotcha.
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Paul Verna
Yeah. Just to pick up on what Linda was saying, we're definitely seeing more vertical video on TV screens, whether it's coming from citizen journalists in a news program or experiments with ads or just because, you know, that's. That's what people are doing more of these days. But the bottom line is that screen is still oriented horizontally. And unless that changes, which I think is pretty unlikely because of sports and movies and things that really are meant to be experienced in a more. In a landscape format. The thing that jumped out to me about this whole story was how Facebook and Instagram both went pretty far in trying to launch a CTV app. This was a long time ago. I don't even. I was trying to remember Rahul, you might know, or Minda, what it was called. But they had like, this whole. They were, you know, they were creating like, you know, TV series and it was all around the CCTV app. Instagram, TV, IGTV was meant to do the same thing. So there's also the problem that when these brands are established in a certain. For a certain audience and on a certain device, which is a mobile device, it is very, very hard to make that leap. It's been hard for YouTube to make that leap, but they have succeeded in doing it because they've been around for 20 years. They've figured it out. They've also had that they're not tied to the vertical orientation, so they were born on the desktop.
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Rahul Chadha
Sorry. So you think maybe the challenge for them isn't necessarily the form factor in terms of portrait versus vertical, but just user behavior that people don't have like the ingrained kind of muscle memory of going to their TV when they want to fire up Instagram reels or something?
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Paul Verna
I think it's a combination of both.
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Minda Smiley
Yeah, I would agree, because I do think, you know, I mean, it doesn't even, you know, we don't know what's going to happen in the future too, in terms of how they're going to approach these apps. A lot remains to be seen. Maybe they will push a more horizontal viewing. I know Tik Tok actually has been encouraging creators to make horizontal videos, so maybe that is something they will try to do. But again, I, I do think a lot of this speaks to Paul's point, which is like, it might be more of like a branding issue than anything of just like people just aren't really used to watching, you know, wanting to go on Instagram in his TV setting.
- [08:07]
Rahul Chadha
Yeah, I think you guys both probably made mention already of YouTube. You know, it seems like this is well trod ground already for YouTube. The Information article noted that YouTube has already found success attracting audiences on connected TVs expanding beyond just computers and phones. And according to some Data from Nielsen, YouTube has accounted for more audience viewing time with TVs than any other media company, including the Walt Disney Company, Paramount and Netflix. So, you know, we have to qualify that measurement a little bit because it's not strictly YouTube versus Instagram or some other specific service, but it's YouTube versus media companies that have maybe some different ways that consumers can access video. But I think YouTube to me, seems like kind of the template that these companies are trying to model themselves off. Do you think every social platform, and maybe I should qualify that by saying what you described min in your US Social Video 2025 report. Is video led or video first social media platform? Are all these platforms, do they want to look like YouTube?
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Minda Smiley
Yeah, I don't know if it's, if it's that simple. I don't know if they all want to look like YouTube. Exactly. I think they want to. I think that, I think Instagram and TikTok definitely want to at least copy what, what's working on YouTube. And they do seem to think that this push to CTV is something that they can, you know, they can, can compete with YouTube a little bit more in terms of User time spent, which obviously, like, the more time people are spending on their platforms, the more ad dollars they can get. So I, I do think there is some of that. But I, I also think it, it is a little bit tricky because I, I, I believe a lot of these social platforms, you know, they, they are always copying each other, but they also do find strength in kind of leaning more into what makes them unique and what, and what they, um, what works for them individually. I, I think we've seen that recently with some of the smaller platforms and like anyone who's talked to me recently knows that I've been going on and on about Reddit. I'm going to do it again here. I like the Reddit. I think partly why Reddit is seeing momentum right now is because they actually don't really look like any of the other social platforms. They're really kind of leaning into what makes them unique and that doesn't mean they aren't experimenting with some of the things we're talking about. But Reddit is pretty unique and I think that's partly why, that's probably why they are seeing some momentum right now. They still remain incredibly small, but they are seeing pretty, pretty good growth right now. So it's always kind of the sell delicate balance of trying to keep up with your rivals but also being unique enough that you're different and so, so.
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Rahul Chadha
Yeah, yeah, differentiation I'm sure is a key selling point for these platforms too. Paul, what do you think about the idea of like YouTube, you know, serving as the model for these social media platforms? Does that make sense to you or is it way off base?
- [10:43]
Paul Verna
I think it does because YouTube has been more things to more people than any other platform. So for the premium streaming platforms, YouTube is essentially the one to beat. I mean, when we were talking about the streaming wars, it was like, is Netflix going to beat Disney plus? Is it going to be Netflix against Hulu or is Amazon going to scale up? But the bottom line. And the New York Times actually just ran recently an article with the headline the Streaming wars come down to two. YouTube versus Netflix. That was unimaginable maybe five, six, seven years ago when YouTube was primarily accessed on mobile. Now CTV is a big, big part of their business from a user standpoint and from an ad revenue standpoint. I think that at the same time it has not lost ground in the creator space and in the place where it competes most with Instagram and TikTok. So really it has somehow managed to continue to be relevant across a very, very broad spectrum of video consumption. Whereas I think when you look at other platforms, they are very, very good in more specific parts of it. But YouTube cuts across it in a way that is impressive and they've been very resilient. So I think while I wouldn't say that TikTok or Instagram are trying to refashion themselves exactly the way YouTube is, because there's still going to be differences in the interface, in the way they position themselves to their audience, there's definitely something to be said for looking at YouTube as a role model of how to make all of this stuff work, which is not easy from a business standpoint.
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Rahul Chadha
Absolutely. I think just jumping into this Nielsen data, which really jumped out at me, it's the media distributor gauge. So this is data for May 2025, and it shows that YouTube had a 12.5% share, and that's their aggregated view of total TV usage by media company. So it's, you know, like I mentioned before, it's beating companies like Walt Disney, NBC. And you mentioned Netflix, Paul. Netflix comparative share is 7.5. So, you know, it's besting them by about 5. YouTube is besting Netflix by about 5 percentage points, which is not shoddy at all. But I think the other thing that jumped out to me is that YouTube has been at the top of this list, I think, for a couple months running now, according to Nielsen's data.
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Paul Verna
So, yeah, actually four months.
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Rahul Chadha
Four months.
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Paul Verna
Four months, yeah. Whereas Nielsen gauge was established, I think it was in July of last year, and there was one month when it's mostly been Disney at the top of the leaderboard. One month, I think nbcu, because of the Olympics, was on top. And then one month last year, Netflix edged out Disney by a little bit. But these four months are now a trend. And not only did YouTube surpass Disney, but the gap has been widening. I think the figure you cited, that 12.5, if I'm not mistaken, it's 2 percentage points higher than Disney and that's the highest. That's the biggest spread they've had. So it's one thing when it happens sporadically, but now it really seems to be a trend.
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Rahul Chadha
Yeah, Disney's a 10.7% share, so almost 2 percentage point higher. Percent. You're right. So, okay, so we've talked about Instagram and TikTok's efforts maybe to get in the living room. YouTube is potential model for what that might look like. At the same time, you know, this is a trend you'd also talk about in your report. Mind streamers have been inking deals with creators. So perhaps the most famous example is YouTuber Mr. Beast launching his show Beast Games on Amazon Video prime in December. Then more recently In January, fellow YouTuber Ms. Rachel struck a deal to license some of her existing YouTube content to Netflix. Jeff Weiss of Business Insider reported on the Ms. Rachel deal as a signal of, quote, how content creators and traditional Hollywood formats are merging. So I think the big question for me here is, should streamers be worried now about these social platforms or trying to get into the living rooms? Are they trying to encroach on a streamer's turf? You know, basically, at the end of the day, is it a viable idea for them to go after their ad dollars? And is partnering with creators the best way for them to do that? Or is there some other way that you think streamers might try to make those advances? I think. Minna, maybe I'll start with you first.
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Minda Smiley
Yeah, I mean, I think there's not really, there's not really one roadmap or one way that we're seeing both social networks and the streamers go about partnering with creators. So I think, I think it's going to be a balance. I mean, even when you look at the streamers, as you mentioned, we're seeing some play out as licensing deals. We're seeing some play out as like original series. We're seeing, I mean, Peacock, for example. I think they actually have like a creator incubator program where they're hiring creators essentially to like write scripted shows for, for the streaming service. I could go on and on. There's like so many different examples of how streamers are, are kind of working with creators in various ways. And of course it is a lot of the big names, I think, you know, the, the vast majority of creators are, are smaller and that the end, they will kind of. Their presence largely lives on social and it will remain that way for quite some time. But I do think these big names, you know, seeing all these different ways that they are making their way to streaming is, is definitely interesting. And I think it. And for the social platforms as well, like they, they want to. So much of their success as of late has been bolstered by these creators. Of course it's not the only thing, but the creator economy is a big reason why we are seeing social still continue to post such robust growth year over year from an ad spend point of view, from a user point of view. And so they of course want to keep creators on their platforms as much as possible and keep those audiences there. So I think really, it's a lot of just blurred lines right now we are in terms of like what streaming content looks like and what social content looks like when it comes to these big name creators.
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Paul Verna
Yeah. And it's important to point out also that media companies, whether they're streamers or traditional media companies, have always tried to embrace creators on one level or another. And I think we're just seeing that elevated. I mean, you know, now at like a Joe Rogan and the influence that he has as a podcaster. He's really a brand unto himself. You, you mentioned Mr. Beast. If you look back, Netflix cut some deals with directors and creators like Shonda Rhimes. And there's a long history of this going back to the early part of last century with United Artists being formed as a company led by creators by Charlie Chaplin in 1919, and then it became like a big film studio. So I think, as Mendo was saying, there is a blurred line because a creator who has a huge audience then becomes an entertainment brand. And that can fall very much within the realm of what a streaming company wants to associate themselves with, just like traditional media did.
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Rahul Chadha
Yeah. And I think one of the things you knew, you mentioned that recent article, Paul, about YouTube versus Netflix, but it seems like to me that still YouTube and the social platforms are banking on a fundamentally different business model where they're not investing in content. Paul, you mentioned that, you know, Facebook had kind of dabbled in that in those waters before, but I think with little, I believe, I don't know if you guys remember, I believe the service is called like Facebook watch and maybe tv.
- [17:59]
Paul Verna
And I looked it up while we were talking. So it's Facebook watched, announced in 2017, launched in 2018. And the show that stuck in my mind was a show that they made called Sorry for your loss. That was the first thing. But it was like a big thrust into TV stuff like premium TV type content, which went absolutely nowhere. But the bottom line is all of these platforms have huge audiences and we haven't even talked about the demographics. I think that's a big part of the push. There's not anything stopping them from leveraging that space in the living room. But I think it's a lot harder than it seems like it might be to bring that audience into that other form factor.
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Rahul Chadha
Yeah, I think you're, you know, you mentioned demographics. I think, you know, the information. I think I said already reported that it was really trying to attract older viewers. Sorry, TikTok is trying to attract older viewers via the living room. So, yeah, I think demographics definitely plays a key, key element here. So do you think, is it, is it realistic that people are going to start reallocating or just thinking about this in their calculus as, you know, Instagram and TikTok as something comparable to CV in terms of like marketing, marketing goals in terms of campaigns or you know, Minda mentioned that one of the key factors I think that determines ad spend a lot of times is differentiation or they want to maintain that distance and they're just going to serve different purposes to marketers than CTV might.
- [19:34]
Minda Smiley
Yeah, I mean, I don't think, I think it's so probably too early days to tell if there's going to be like real budget allocation differences especially. There's still a lot of question marks around what the, what TikTok is and Instagram CTV apps are going to look like, how quickly they're going to gain traction if and how they're going to change the way they work with creators with knowing that they're investing in these apps. So I think it's hard for me to say now, but I do think overall one thing I've been hearing lately, and this is sort of tangential but also related is as I think so much of advertising just like happens in cycles and I've actually been talking to a lot of marketers recently that have been saying like they're actually changing their TikTok, I guess you could say marketing strategy and they're leaning a little bit less into trends. It's not so much about hopping on the latest viral trend. They're actually kind of creating their own more episodic, more polished content on TikTok essentially. I, I forget how one marketer phrase it to me, but he basically said like we're just making stuff that looks more like an ad now. We're not, we're not trying so hard to kind of blend in with TikTok and make it seem so organic and trend driven. We're just kind of creating our own storytelling in our own ads and really hoping it resonates with users. And so again, not to kind of keep going back to this idea of blurred lines, but that really is what's going on, right? Like they're creating more polished, you know, premium ads that maybe they, that work on TikTok but also could work in a streaming environment where ads typically tend to be a bit more, you know, a bit more thought out, a bit more polished as opposed to like your day to day social ads. And so I think there's going to be a lot of interesting movement happening in terms of like things are just going to kind of start looking more similar. It might be harder to differentiate what a TikTok ad looks like versus what a Netflix ad looks like. But so yeah, that's my take right now. But as many things in social, it could change six months from now.
- [21:16]
Paul Verna
Yeah. And I wouldn't be surprised if I was quoted on this podcast expressing skepticism about YouTube's ability to transition into the CTV space when we, you know, when it first came up like eons ago. Rahul, I know you were on the ground floor of that whole experience with the podcast, but. Yeah, so I was wrong. I think YouTube has been very successful and I just wouldn't bet against any of these companies. I think it is a very high bar. It's largely a branding issue and to some extent that form factor issue. So I don't, you know, I think it's hard to see it happening, but stranger things have happened and not just.
- [21:57]
Rahul Chadha
On Netflix early days yet. You know, they haven't even launched the app yet. So. Thank you guys so much. I think that's all we have time for. Thanks to Minda Smiley. I appreciate you joining in.
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Minda Smiley
Yes, thank you.
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Rahul Chadha
And thanks to Paul. Thanks for joining us and spending time with us today.
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Paul Verna
Always a pleasure, Rahul. And you can go ahead and quit your day job. You did a great job at this.
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Rahul Chadha
I'll wait for the returns to come in, see how the post publication verdict is, but I appreciate that.
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Paul Verna
Don't quit your day, Joe.
- [22:23]
Rahul Chadha
I just wanted to give a shout out thanks to the editing crew and to everyone for listening into behind the Numbers, an emarketer video podcast made possible by Quad so you can support, subscribe and follow us to hear about new episodes and give us a rating and review. If you have time, tune in Wednesday for the reimagining retail show for a discussion on Amazon's Prime Day.