Why Measurement Is Harder Today, and The Ways It Needs Improving with Nielsen: Part 2 | Behind the Numbers

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Behind the Numbers – Why Measurement Is Harder Today, and The Ways It Needs Improving with Nielsen: Part 2

Episode Date: November 10, 2025
Host: Marcus (EMARKETER)
Guests:

• Max Willins (Principal Analyst, EMARKETER)
• Alison Gensheimer (Head of Performance Marketing, Nielsen)
• Matt De Vit (SVP and Head of Advertisers and Agencies, Nielsen)

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Main Theme

This episode explores the evolving challenges in marketing measurement, focusing on why measurement is harder for advertisers today and what needs to improve. The conversation centers on industry fragmentation, shifting metrics, and actionable advice for marketers looking to reassess and navigate the complex measurement landscape.

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1. The State of Measurement: Harder, Not (Necessarily) Worse

• Complexity and Fragmentation

  • Matt De Vit notes that measurement isn’t necessarily worse today but is definitely harder due to data fragmentation and lack of transparency. Previously, disparate data sources could be stitched together more easily; now, there are far more data silos that don't connect. ([05:38])
  • Notable Quote:

    "When I first started in marketing analytics, we were able to bring together disparate data sources more easily... Now, it's more fragmented than ever before." ([06:34])

  • Identity challenges and walled gardens (closed ecosystems) hinder holistic measurement.

• Volume vs. Value of Data

  • Discussion about whether more data is better, or if better models and transparency matter more. Having more data isn't always the solution, especially when insights from different sources don’t talk to each other.

• Increased Channel Complexity

  • Alison Gensheimer underscores the challenge as people bounce between channels more than ever. Past systems for re-linking fragmented data often break, forcing continual reinvention. ([07:40])
  • Notable Quote:

    "We used to kind of be able to piece it back together. Now it's like every time we find a way... we lose that way and have to start over, try something new." ([07:48])

• Pressure from Leadership

  • Max Willins highlights growing pressure from CFOs and leadership to prove ROI with precision, adding to the difficulty in an increasingly complex ecosystem. ([09:00])
  • Notable Quote:

    "You also have the CFO going... you have to prove this works. A directional thing is not going to cut it." ([09:24])

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2. "Easier" Isn't Always "Better": Shortcuts and Trade-Offs

• Go-to Solutions & Risk Aversion

  • Marketers increasingly rely on solutions that pass the internal scrutiny ("get through the meeting") but may not be holistic or long-term focused. This breeds a culture where risk-averse, tried-and-true solutions are favored (“nobody ever got fired for buying IBM” principle). ([10:57])
  • Notable Quote:

    "In the absence of that clarity... you just kind of reach for the thing that passes muster with other stakeholders." ([11:10])

• User Experience vs. Measurement Depth

  • Digital platforms have made campaign management and basic measurement very easy, but this simplicity often masks the lack of holistic insights across platforms. ([11:31])

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3. Changing Metrics and Redefining Success

• Shift from Top-of-Funnel to Outcome-Driven Metrics

  • Alison argues that marketers are adept at working with what they have, even as metrics shift from reach and frequency to true business outcomes – but this shift requires a new definition of what success means. ([12:24])
  • Notable Quote:

    "It's not as much of a transition as redefining what success looks like in this new space." ([12:27])

  • Marketers must regularly defend and explain their chosen KPIs, unlike other professions where metrics go largely unquestioned. ([13:35])

• Importance of Help and Cross-Functional Collaboration

  • Alison suggests marketers should not hesitate to ask for help, particularly leveraging data science teams and holistic business data, not just marketing stats. ([14:09])

• Brand Building vs. Short-Termism

  • Matt emphasizes the foundational value of brand-building, which is harder to measure but crucial for market share growth. He cautions against obsessing over short-term performance at the expense of long-term equity. ([15:20])
  • Notable Quote:

    "If you're a large brand... the goal is to increase your market share. A lot of it starts with brand building... and that is hard to quantify in the short term." ([15:24])

• Diverse Measurement Methodologies

  • Max shares research showing 88% of marketers plan to invest in at least one of five measurement approaches, and most in more than one, revealing a widespread appetite for multi-faceted measurement. ([17:50])
  • Notable Quote:

    "We are seeing signs that marketers are... doing what they can to sort of look at this from multiple angles." ([17:53])

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4. Actionable Advice and Recommendations (Summary Begins ~[19:30])

• Follow the Customer

  • Alison’s advice: Align measurement strategies with the actual customer journey/experience—even when the data is messy. ([19:53])
  • Notable Quote:

    “If you follow the customer, you can't go wrong.” ([20:13])

  • Don't get stuck in “spreadsheet land”; look at the big picture and seek out partners who share your appetite for solving today’s and tomorrow’s challenges.

• Plan Deliberately

  • Matt recommends rigorous preparation ("Boy Scout model: be prepared")—focus not just on allocating spend, but truly understanding who the audience is and delivering tailored, distinctive messages. ([21:27])
  • Avoid commoditizing budget allocation; strategy must drive planning, not just optimization for lowest CPMs.

• Know What Drives Your Results

  • Max warns against 'black box' measurement solutions. Marketers must understand the mechanics behind the models they use; otherwise, they risk trading one opaque system for another. ([23:11])
  • Notable Quote:

    "Make sure you understand where the results come from... because you don't want to trade one black box for another." ([23:11])

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5. Notable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

• On Data Fragmentation:
  "Fragmentation is a fundamental problem for things like holistic measurement and transparency." – Matt ([07:15])
• On the Marketer's Scrutiny:
  "No one walks up to an accountant and says, 'No, I completely disagree.' But marketers... their metrics are disagreed with, their KPIs are challenged, they're sent back to the drawing board." – Alison ([13:35])
• On Brand Building:
  "A lot of that is just creating... the mental availability of your brand... a baseline you build performance off of." – Matt ([16:16])
• On the Need to Ask for Help:
  "I think what I want to just ask everybody else to is ask for help... because you are doing it on top of your day job." – Alison ([14:02])
• On Deliberate Planning:
  "I think one of the initial solves is, be really deliberate in planning... Not just big channel allocations, but who is my customer? Where are they? Build plans to reach that audience with a distinctive message." – Matt ([21:27])
• On Understanding Measurement Models:
  "Make sure you really understand how the different inputs that go into it tune the results... you just want to have that visibility." – Max ([23:11])

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6. Timestamps for Key Sections

• 00:00–04:51: Introductions and Icebreakers
• 04:51–10:57: Is Measurement Harder or Worse Today? Why?
• 10:57–12:24: Digital Measurement, Ease vs. Holism
• 12:24–19:30: Transitioning & Redefining Metrics; Marketers’ Resilience
• 19:30–23:57: Advice for Marketers: Navigating the New Measurement Landscape
• 23:57–end: Episode closeout and further reading

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TL;DR

Measurement is objectively harder today, not for lack of effort but due to data fragmentation, channel complexity, and executive pressure. Marketers must redefine “success” beyond old-school metrics, adapt to new measurement realities, ask for help, and understand the mechanics of their models. The key advice: Follow the customer, plan deliberately, and demand clarity in measurement tools—because as the industry evolves, only holistic, transparent practices will drive confident decisions and true value.

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Transcript

[A]

Your audience is seeing ads everywhere, even on the screens you'd least expect. Nielsen Ad intel helps you see the whole picture, from creative trends to ad spend and media across all screens, all of them. Maximize every media dollar today with Nielsen Ad Intel. Hey, gang. It's Monday, November 10th. Max, Alison, Matt, and listeners, welcome to behind the Numbers, new marketing video podcast made possible by Nielsen. I'm Marcus, and joining me for today's conversation, we welcome back From Friday's episode eMarketer's principal analyst. He resides in Philadelphia. It's Max Willins.

[B]

Hey, Marcus.

[A]

Hello, sir. Lower energy than me? Maybe I should bring it down a bit. Also, two special guests from Nielsen head of performance marketing living in the Bay Area, it's Alison Gensheimer.

[C]

Hey, how you doing?

[A]

Very good. How are you?

[B]

Good.

[A]

Welcome back to the show. And SVP and head of advertisers and agencies based in the Cleveland area, it's Matt De Vit.

[D]

Hi, everybody. Good to see you all.

[A]

Did I get it right?

[D]

Seriously, don't worry.

[A]

Devitt is Devitt, isn't it?

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

There you go.

[A]

Lance, cut that in, please. Oh, my goodness. Welcome to the show today. I am overthinking it. You're right on this one. Today's episode has a couple of special guests, so we start with the speed intro. Okay, so for folks who were hanging out with us on Friday, if you weren't, go check that one out because we're talking about similar topic but different things. Part one. Alison, what do you do? In a sentence?

[C]

I lead product and performance marketing for Nielsen globally.

[A]

Very nice. And Matt, still doing the same thing as Friday?

[D]

Yeah, still looking after the advertiser and agency clients in the U.S. very good.

[A]

Our second question is for all three of our guests. We'll start with Alison. What's one hidden gem of a place you visited that maybe took you by surprise a bit?

[C]

I don't want to tell people, but. So I live in the Bay Area, which means that everybody goes skiing in Tahoe. That's what everybody does. They were going to talk about this weekend is the common thread. We found a little area. We didn't discover it, but we were kind of led to a little area called Bear Valley, which is about two hours outside of the Bay Area. And it's full of, like, these little tiny towns on this road and this nice local ski area. I grew up with a local ski area in Colorado, so I was, like, super excited to find this, like, one lodge and you can still walk in and my son can, you know, walk up, walk up and go on a ski instructor and, you know, by himself. And it's, you know, one lift, and it's fun. And so it's one of our favorite places to kind of go. And then we found some friends around us that are like, oh, yeah, we go to Bear Valley, too. Like, it's a super secret. We don't tell you.

[A]

Bear Valley? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, Bear Valley.

[C]

All right.

[A]

Very nice. Not been to Tahoe yet, but when I do, I will. I'll go to Bear Valley. It'll probably be packed. Now that you've mentioned it to all of us.

[C]

I know, right? I'm in trouble.

[A]

But you've ruined it for everybody.

[C]

To the grander Tahoe.

[A]

Very nice. Matt, how about you?

[D]

Yeah. So I don't know how much of a secret this is to other Midwesterners, but for those listening across the country. Northern Michigan. Yeah, northern Michigan. Traverse City. That's a. So I've gone up with my family to Leelana county for many years, which is the definition of pure Michigan, you know, their. Their marketing and branding. But Traverse City as a town, like, we recently spent time there. It's a really cool town. And right on the. The water there.

[A]

The peninsula.

[D]

It's not on the peninsula, but it's okay. Not on the up, but, like, it's across the water from. From the up.

[A]

Okay, okay. The peninsula. I haven't been, but I've seen pictures. It looks like the Mediterranean is gorgeous up there. Oh, my goodness. Okay. Very nice. And town. What was it called again?

[D]

Traverse City.

[A]

Traverse City. Okay, Max, what you got for us?

[B]

Like, our guests? I have something that is not something that I discovered, but something that really, I guess, exceeded my expectations, which is Cassis in the south of France. It's a tiny little town on the Mediterranean, which maybe really got to me because we got there from kind of walking and sliding up and down Calanc from Marseilles, and so it really just kind of knocked my socks off. But again, it might have just been because I was hot and had pastis instead of some water after sliding down the Kelan. So very nice, very nice.

[A]

Excellent answers. But today's real topic, why advertisers are reducing spend. Part two, Is measurement worse today than it was? All right, I'm just going to start with the question because, Matt, it was something that you discussed when we were talking about what to discuss before this episode, and you kind of posed this idea of is measurement worse or harder today than. It was something that, I don't know, a Lot of folks might not say we think that everything is always getting better and better and better, but sometimes I think it's important to stop and look back and think, have we really made any significant gains here? What's your take? Is measurement worse, slash harder today than it was? If yes, why? If no, why not?

[D]

Yeah, I don't know if I would necessarily characterize it as worse. I mean, to a degree, maybe that suggests people aren't trying. I know that some very people out there really working and making measurement, you know, strong and accurate and rigorous. I do think it's harder. You know, to a degree, we think about all the big data sets that are out there, but we, we, you know, that we've never had before, like, more data points than ever before. And I think there was, you know, there was a notion that the more data, like one question that was asked a lot when I did grad school in data science was, you know, what's better? To have a better model or more data? And a lot of the answers were more data, you know, but, you know, what is the data? Not necessarily more data is better. Right now we're dealing with a lot of fragmented data sources that do not talk to each other. When I first started in the world of marketing analytics, we were able to bring together disparate data sources more easily and stitch them together. And there was greater transparency and there was, you know, to a degree, a more holistic view on things. I think the data supply chain, the walled gardens, it's more fragmented than ever before. I mean, that's a term we've used forever. But I don't know if it doesn't seem like it's gotten better. And fragmentation is a fundamental problem for things like holistic measurement and transparency. It's why the ANA is taking on the Aquila initiative. It's why we work really hard in cross platform measurement as well as others. But it's. If you ask anybody who's really in the weeds of trying to solve it, trying to solve the data fragmentation problem, the identity problems, it's really a hard thing to do. And I think if you really ask advertisers, seriously, especially the ones who have been doing it for a long time, I think a lot of them would say it is harder.

[A]

Allison, please. Harder today.

[C]

Yeah, Again, worse is so subjective, but I think the can, there's so much new and people bounce between channels so often more than they ever did before. And like Matt said, like, we used to kind of be able to have ways to piece that back together. And now it's like every time we find a way to piece it back together, we lose that way, and we have to start over, try something new. And, you know, you turn into kind of like, what's old is new. You know, media mix. Models come back, panels become as they always have been, like, a really solid way to understand what consumers are really doing. Because just as, you know, we were kind of kids, cookies, you know, kids in a candy store going after cookies. And it was great. And then we started to lose that. Now we got to figure it out. So we're in this constant state of chasing so many new ways that we can consume media, so many new ways that consumers jump into it. And then we're trying to figure out how do we take advantage of that, how do we create great customer experiences and know that they're proving value when everything's just moving around so quickly? And to Matt's point, the data is just. Some of it's here. It's really all over the place, probably more than it ever has been. You know, you used to be able to point to, like, the three sources and be like, those three things don't talk to each other. Now it's like those 25 things don't talk.

[B]

And the amount of time we spend consuming and interacting with those things is increasingly stacked on top of each other in ways that are crazy. I also think, too, that. I think what both of you guys said is super on. On point, and then you roll in the pressure. That was a major topic of our previous conversation. And that just makes it even worse, right? Because in addition to having this kind of, like, meteoric rise in complexity, you also have the CFO going. Like, you also have to. You have to prove this works. A directional thing is not going to cut it. So you roll all that together and feel like for most CMOs, you could argue that, you know, because it's more complicated, it's. It may feel like it's worse even if there's more potential.

[C]

He makes confident decision making hard. Right? You know, we talked about in the last episode, the idea of planning was such a great idea of, like, you know, being more confident in your planning, being, you know, cross all these channels and new channels, and then being, you know, you're not crossing your fingers and hoping that the measurement comes out and said you were right. Like, how do you feel more confident throughout that entire process? It's. It's not easy, but it's a fun challenge to try to figure out.

[D]

Well, and I think that's. This is we're pointing into partly why the industry has sort of moved towards just doing what's easier. Like Max, you said like there's the speed aspect to it, but I actually think underlying a lot of this there is just this sort of. What's the right word? Despair. Maybe in getting it now we're getting right and truly accurate. So I'm going to just like I'm going to get the best thing I can right now so that I can make the case for this specific aspect of this campaign or this channel. And that's what I need in order to justify this investment. And it is a lot of the urgency part with the incompleteness creates a bit of that perfect storm. It's not because people don't want it to be better, it's just that's a bit of the environment.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's right. I'm not going to say what the 21st century companies to plug in yet, but it is a little bit of the like nobody ever got fired for buying IBM thing all over again. Right. And where you, in the absence of that clarity and cleanliness, you will just kind of reach for the thing that I guess passes muster with other stakeholders in the organization and just go as. I love that phrase you used, Alison, of just like it gets you through the meeting. And I think that there's a ton of that.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And that's where I think the digital players have. They've been really smart from a business standpoint is they have made it. I mean they are amazing at user experience, whether that's consumer user experience or B2B user experience. So the ability to manage a campaign, get measurement like the ease of use part of it. Like they've been brilliant at building products to do that, which make it easy and fast. It doesn't make it holistic though. Like, I think we all have to at least acknowledge that that has got harder.

[C]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

So I want to speak about. So the metrics advertisers using to evaluate spend changing how. Alison, I'll start with you. How do you think marketers are doing when it comes to transitioning away from those directional, traditional, sorry directional upper funne metrics to more grounded business focused ones?

[C]

I think marketers are good at working with what they have. Just like what we've been talking about, you know, and making the most out of what's in front of them. You know, it's kind of a default skill set for the job. You got to be flexible and work with what you have. It's, you know, it's not as much of a transition as redefining what success looks like in this new space. And some of the things that we used to use is what success was, you know, really, you know, straight up reaching frequency. We're really common or still a common usage of success. But real success is like starting to think of what drives outcomes, you know, what drives to that next level. And how do we redefine that, you know, in a way that like, you know, really kind of delivers. So you can. And they're trying to do this on top of their day jobs. Yeah, that's not an easy thing. Hey, continue to deliver the campaign. Hey, continue to be successful, make it through the meeting. And, and by the way, could you, on top of that, just kind of redefine some of your KPIs and success metrics while you're doing it? There's always that fun joke that it's like no one walks up to an accountant and says, no, no, no, I completely disagree. Like, that is not right. I do not know what you're saying. But marketers, every day, every month, every meeting, their metrics are disagreed with, the KPIs are using, are challenged. They're sent back to the drawing board to figure out that next story. And I think they're doing the best with what they have. I think what I want to just ask everybody else to is ask for help. You know, I know I'm learning to ask for help. Luckily, I'm a kid in a candy store and I work at Nielsen, so I can ask really smart data scientists to try to solve problems for me, but it's like, just really to get over that hump. It's like, you got to ask for a little bit of help here because you are doing it on top of your day job.

[A]

Yeah. Who are you asking help from the most you think is there certain folks you're gravitating more towards?

[C]

I'm gravitating towards.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In terms of the help you're asking.

[C]

For, I try to kind of put together the science and the, you know, intuition. So talking to marketers across B2B and B2C and seeing if they're speaking to someone, a marketer I've worked with for many years, and she's worked across both. And I was like, how do you. What have you learned from one that works in the other? And like, how do they work together? And then a lot of. You're starting to see a lot of, you know, data science, groups, marketing, measurement teams really start to consolidate within data teams, which is positive because it's giving us such more, so much more power in the data science parts of the organization and connecting those dots. So I turn to a lot of those teams that are pulling this together and go, how are you thinking about it differently when you're not just looking at the marketing data? You know, I worked for a large advertiser that, you know, when we just looked at the marketing data, we saw one story, but when we looked at the holistic business data, all of a sudden all these other stories showed up. We hadn't considered before, we hadn't thought about.

[A]

Yeah, how about for you, we talked about the transitioning. Maybe it's more, as Allison was saying, a redefining of what success looks like. How do you think about this conversation?

[D]

I mean, for me, it does start with brand building. You know, if. So let's say, you know, if you're a large brand, right, so you're not, let's say maybe a, a D, two C or performance brand. But for, for a lot of the brands we think about, you know, at the end of the day, what I would say, maybe I'd, I'd start with for every, for the vast majority of brands, at least I don't want to be too general. The goal is to increase your market share. Like everybody wants to get more customers to increase your market share. That's what, that's what the business is judged on. And so what are the things that you're doing as a brand to grow your market share and grow your customer base? And for me, you know, based upon, you know, what I think the evidence is is that a lot of it starts with the brand building activity, like building the base of the brand. And that is hard to quantify in the short term. You know, if you are on the super bowl, take the extreme example of a brand building activity that is extremely high reach, high attention. Like you will see an immediate, like marketing, mixed models will see a short term response. But a lot of that is just creating the, to use a Ehrenberg Bass term, the mental availability of your brand. And that is a baseline that you can build performance off of. So I worry when we get so obsessed with the short term metrics and the short term optimization, which I do again think is important, and we talked about this in the previous podcast for things like testing and learning, experimentation. But you've got to get the base right. And I think you have like there are data sets plug for Nielsen that does give you comparable, high quality, highly curated data on things like Premium video, how you are showing up in live streaming, in audio, in premium television, to get to some of these brand building metrics, which are a bit slower moving, but they're slower moving because they're building equity. Yeah, right. So I don't know if we talk enough about that and then how performance then plays a role on top of it.

[A]

Max, what's your take here?

[B]

Well, I mean, I think what's, I guess encouraging in light of all the kind of complexity and you know, fractured nature of the data and measurement signals that marketers have to deal with, is that we are seeing signs that, you know, marketers are not, are doing what they can, I guess to sort of like look at this from, from multiple angles to the extent that they can. Right. So that survey that we, we did in partnership with, with TransUnion, we asked about five different kind of measurement methodologies and whether they were going to invest in any of them over the next 12 months. They meaning the kind of US marketing community. And what we found was that, you know, close to 88% of them were going to invest in at least one of them and most were going to invest in more than one. And so you do have this kind of cognizance of what Matt was talking about, of not wanting to be too myopic and focused solely on short term bottom funnel returns. And so I think that that's something that's going to stand everybody in good stead. Even though the road toward developing a kind of stable, clean or at least kind of workable vision of how the spending is impacting results is often kind of a long path. And also to Alison's earlier point is a path that can get destroyed by an ATT shaped landslide or whatever it happens to be or a Google shaped landslide, depending on what was happening year to year.

[A]

Yeah, listen, the episode and this series because we have part one Friday, Part two today with some advice, some help for marketers. Alison, I'll start with you. What are things marketers can, should be doing to make sure that they are navigating this transition or this redefining of measurement effectively?

[C]

I would say try to align your measurement to your customer experience. See, see what's really happening, you know, and do your best. We know that nothing's perfect and we're, you know, we live in kind of a mixture of, you know, art and science, but really kind of like try, if you follow a former CMO I worked for said if you follow the customer, you can't go wrong, you know. And so like just that idea of being able to try to see what we can do, to look at that holistic story of the customer experience you're trying to create, to Matt's point, from, you know, really getting that attention span, that space, space in their mind, to them taking that action. We all know that doesn't happen in one channel with one frequency at one day, at one moment. Like, we know that that happens over time and trying to understand that. And I think ask for help, you know, like, don't. Don't get stuck in, you know, your, your spreadsheet land of like, oh, God, I can't see it. Like, you know, look at those partners who are developing and thinking the way you're thinking, who are trying to solve those tough challenges for today and tomorrow. You know, look for people, because it is. We at Nielsen do believe this is solvable. It's very solvable. We spend our, you know, our lives, our days, our nights doing is trying to figure out how we do this and how we keep up. So, you know, I ask for help.

[A]

Yeah, I really like that a lot. I feel like we spend a lot of our time doing, creating this stuff or in meetings a lot of the time we shouldn't be in, but not very much time asking for help and listening and learning from others who are right there. Matt, how about for you?

[D]

So I agree with a lot of what Allison said, and I know we talked a lot about measurement, but I think one of the initial solves is be really deliberate in planning with the Boy Scout model. Be prepared.

[C]

Right.

[D]

So, you know, not only like big chat channel allocations, but I think there's a lot of insights and work that can be done by getting an understanding, which a lot of these advertisers think about constantly. Who is my customer to Allison? Who is my audience in the media world? Where are they? Well, then getting very deliberate about building plans to reach that audience with a great, clear, distinctive message and not sort of punting it to, well, I'm going to put this money to the lowest into the. This programmatic ecosystem to get the lowest possible cpm. Like, that is not strategic and deliberate enough, in my opinion. Like, I think there's a lot of work that can be done in the planning part that the advertisers can really have a lot of visibility to, which is a great place to start. And then, you know, work with a. With a lens towards measurement.

[A]

Yeah, my dad, he was also US Military. Maybe this came from that as well. But he was, he would always say, you FA the kind of. You fail to plan you plan to fail. It's painfully relevant. I hate how relevant it is. I must think of that phrase probably 20 times a day. And you spot on. And it was relevant when you told me. Relevant today, maybe even more so. Max, how about for you?

[B]

I love everything that Alison and Matt shared. I guess I would just round it out by, say, make sure you understand where the results come from. If you decide that you're going to invest in a marketing mixed model solution, make sure you really understand how the different inputs that go into it tune the results because you don't want to trade one black box for another. And so it's just important to look under the hood and understand what's driving the results that get spit back out at you because you just want to have that visibility to accept that it's possible.

[A]

These are all fantastic and even more recommendations in Max's new research measurement, trends H2 2025. It's on the website. Go look. That's what we have time for for today's episode though, unfortunately. Thank you so, so much to my guests. Thank you. First to Alison for joining us today and Friday as well.

[C]

Thanks, guys. It was fun.

[A]

Yes, indeed. Thank you. To Matt.

[D]

Thanks great to see you guys.

[A]

Yes, sir. And to Max, of course.

[B]

Always a pleasure. Marcus, thank you.

[A]

Yes, indeed. And thank you. Huge thank you to the production crew. As always to everyone for listening to behind the Numbers new marketer video podcast podcast made possible by Nielsen. You can tune in Wednesday to hang out with Susie on the reimagining retail show.