← Best Friends with Nicole Byer and Sasheer Zamata
Best Friends with Nicole Byer and Sasheer Zamata
Nicole and Sasheer Talk Political Strategy (w/ Anat Shenker-Osorio)
01:08:32
Loading summary
Transcript218 lines
- [00:02]
A
This is a Headgum podcast. Nicole. Hola.
- [00:16]
B
Hola. We have a guest today. Girl.
- [00:23]
A
It's shocking.
- [00:24]
B
I know, I know.
- [00:25]
A
It's just usually the two of us.
- [00:26]
C
It's so crazy to have somebody else here.
- [00:28]
B
Yes.
- [00:29]
C
I couldn't believe that's what just happened.
- [00:31]
B
It's so funny. Clipboard jumped out of your hand. Today we have Anat Shankar Osorio, who conducts original research into perception and persuasion and host Words to Win by a podcast about how we've achieved progressive victories around the world. She's led research for new messaging on issues ranging from unions to clean energy and from immigrant rights to repealing abortion bans. Her work has been featured in the New York Times, Rolling Stones, the Atlantic, the New Yorker, the Washington Post, the Guardian, and others. We have Anat here.
- [01:06]
A
Hello. Thank you so much for having me.
- [01:09]
B
Thank you for being here.
- [01:10]
C
Thank you for being here.
- [01:11]
B
Anat and I met at an event that was hosted by the ACLU and Harness and Jane Fonda, and that was so cool. And Anat spoke, and she was talking about how we can fight authoritarianism in these times, and I just really loved how, like, accessible you made everything sound and how clear you were talking about everything. And. Yeah, I'm just glad to have you here to talk to us.
- [01:37]
A
Thank you. I. I'm extraordinarily honored that you would, A, have me and, B, just actually open up this conversation that I think is really critical. Well, it's really hard. Yeah.
- [01:48]
C
Because I spent a lot of time being, like, it's just me. I don't know. What do I do?
- [01:52]
B
Yeah, it's very easy to feel very singular, because also, like, everything seems so dire on the news, and, you know, I feel like there's been many attempts to break down community systems, so we don't feel like as together as we could have or could be.
- [02:09]
A
Yeah. I mean, that's actually the ultimate aim of an authoritarian regime, is to erode people's will to resist. Their win is when we give up, because as long as we're still resisting and struggling and fighting back, that's costly for them. It takes energy, it takes money, it takes time. And so part of their effort is actually to create that feeling of exhaustion and impossibility. But in reality, nobody knows what's gonna come next. Nobody knows what the future holds. And so the future is just literally made of the decisions that we take together. Yeah. So.
- [02:48]
B
Yeah. When did you start organizing and getting into this work?
- [02:52]
A
Yeah. Well, you know, my, like, origin story is that my earliest memory of school is that when I was in kindergarten. My parents were done with me pretty early, so they sent me at 4. I had exhausted them at that point. We got these notebooks, and this is how old I am. My notebook had the Muppet show on it. It had Animal in the middle, like, playing the drums.
- [03:18]
B
I love the Muppets.
- [03:19]
A
And the teacher was called out of the room, and she said, okay, everybody, just draw in your notebooks while I'm go. And the minute she left, obviously, people started harassing this one kid and, you know, taking his notebook and messing with him. And she came back to chaos and everybody's yelling and whatever, and she took all our notebooks. And she was like, now none of you are gonna have notebooks. And I said, but some of us didn't do anything. Some of us were just sitting here drawing in our notebooks. And she said, did you help him? Did you stand up for him? Did you say anything? Did you call out? I was like, no, I did what you told me, which was to draw in my notebook. And I guess I was a Democrat. That's what I was doing. Just what?
- [04:01]
B
I was just doing what I was told.
- [04:04]
A
That was like my junior Chuck Schumer moment. Oh, sorry. Was I not supposed to be honest on this?
- [04:09]
B
You can be as you want, as you want to be.
- [04:12]
A
The whole fighting fascism with overcooked spaghetti noodles not working out with us for us. And she said, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
- [04:20]
C
Oh, damn.
- [04:22]
A
And so is that four.
- [04:25]
B
This is what teachers explaining. I mean, that's great, though. Get stuck with you.
- [04:28]
C
She had had enough. You're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Give me the notebooks.
- [04:33]
B
Feel like I was coloring.
- [04:35]
A
I don't know if that's how far back you meant me to go. I love that. But that's my recollection of why and when I decided that, like, I had to do this kind of work. And then I guess the more proximate answer is that, among things, I studied linguistics in college, and so I knew that there were particular ways that we could make langu. That it didn't need to be this sort of willy nilly thing. But once I started working in politics, what I saw is that the way people would make choices about what to say would just be sort of impressionistic, like finger in the wind. I don't know, that sounded good to me. But I knew that you could make more deliberate choices that would be more persuasive. And so fast forward through a Lot of things. A stint in the Peace Corps, a 90 day fiance, husband, which I'm proud to say I still have till this day. And I went back to graduate school, which is why we moved to California, to Berkeley in particular. And I studied with a pretty famous guy named George Lakoff, among doing other things. And I ended up trying to apply these ideas of how do we actually persuade people in systematic ways. I did that for a long time. I would do these giant research projects and I would be like, this way of messaging, issue X is shitty and doesn't persuade, this way does. And I would present it. And even though people would spend money on it and research is expensive, they would never implement it. And after doing that for a long time, I was like, oh, all of the things that make it really difficult for a public, for a group of voters to change their minds and do different things, that's just as present in activists. Activists are also people who are used to doing and saying things in a certain way. And so then that is when I started doing much broader campaigns where I wouldn't just be like, here's my research, good luck, I hope you implement it. But actually designing full scale campaigns that would involve ads and that would involve messaging and that would involve a press strategy and events and trying to bring new messaging to life. So, yeah, that's, that's kind of the arc of it.
- [06:48]
C
Yeah.
- [06:48]
B
What kind of techniques do you find are working when it comes to like reaching people who need to be reached?
- [06:57]
A
Yeah. So I like to joke that I can summarize all of left wing messaging Both in the U.S. and outside of it, in three sentences, which is, boy, have I got a problem for you. This is the Titanic. Would you like to buy a ticket? And we're the losing team. We lose a lot. We lost recently, so you should join us.
- [07:16]
B
Yeah. I mean, a lot of my emails, the subject is like, huh, you're not going to believe this.
- [07:22]
C
We have another fight to go.
- [07:24]
B
Yeah. Oh boy. If only, if only you open this email, it's all going to explode.
- [07:29]
C
And that doesn't make me feel like I want to get involved. It makes me feel like, well, we'll probably lose again.
- [07:35]
B
Yeah.
- [07:36]
C
And then also, okay, why is this? I have so many questions are just like, why? But it feels like when Democrats have power, they don't implement changes. Like the mayor of New York, I keep reading about all these incredible things
- [07:50]
A
he's doing, actually doing.
- [07:51]
C
And then we just recently went to New York and I was like, I think this is the cleanest I'VE ever seen this city.
- [07:55]
B
Yeah.
- [07:56]
C
And I like. And it kind of like blew me away. I was like, there's trash cans everywhere.
- [08:00]
B
Like, it just felt different.
- [08:02]
C
Different and not as grimy, but it still felt like New York and not sanitized in like a weird way. But I'm like, so why. Why do other Democrats. I mean, you don't like, know specific.
- [08:14]
A
Oh, no, I do know why.
- [08:15]
C
Oh, okay.
- [08:16]
A
Yeah. No one's.
- [08:16]
C
Why do other democr not do good things? Like, are the. Is Gavin Newsom our governor again? Like, I don't know.
- [08:25]
A
He sure is our governor.
- [08:26]
C
So why isn't he doing good things?
- [08:28]
A
Well, he's very busy doing podcasts with right wing personalities. Doesn't have a lot of time left to do good things. I mean, I could tell you why. The answer's very simple. The answer is that much of the Democratic establishment, and since I'm gonna get roasted for this, notall Democrats. Yes, there are good Democrats. You just named one. His name is Mamdani.
- [08:54]
C
I really like him.
- [08:55]
A
Yeah, he's. I mean, I'm very biased because I basically know like all of the people on his campaign. So, like, I have obviously very warm feelings about that and about the strategy behind it, which I'm happy to talk about. But for the most part, in the United States, because of money and politics, running for office, being in office is a high money game. It takes a lot of money. And unfortunately, and sadly, every person in elected office, especially in Congress, they have a set number of hours a week. And it's a lot of hours to do something that's called call time. Call time is set aside. So they're not reading legislation, they're not introducing legislation, they're not meeting with committee members, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. They're calling their donors to keep them happy. Like, that's what call time is. And that is like, wait, what? Oh, you don't know this?
- [09:50]
B
I didn't know that. No, no.
- [09:52]
C
So wait, what the fuck? So instead of like passing bills, they're calling people to be like, are you happy with the things I've done? Give me more money.
- [10:01]
A
I have a good friend. And we, and we are going to get to the part of like, what you can do and how we get out of this. Whatever. I'm just like, well, okay.
- [10:09]
C
But like most of our listeners, I assume like me, who are ill fucking informed.
- [10:15]
A
You're not ill informed. You just have other things going on. Hey, yeah, you're. Whatever. See, I'm just busy. I just reframe that for you.
- [10:24]
B
Thank you.
- [10:25]
A
Yeah. So sorry. I lost my own train of thought. I. You know, it's a very challenging situation that, like, we put people in charge of people. Like, at a fundamental level, people being in charge of people is a bad idea. But we haven't really come up with a better ide.
- [10:43]
B
And, well, I feel like one day AI will be in charge of.
- [10:46]
A
Yeah, it's true. And it's probably tomorrow.
- [10:48]
B
I don't want that.
- [10:48]
A
Yeah, no, it's gonna be.
- [10:50]
C
Imagine a judge with eight fingers being like, here's your sentence.
- [10:55]
A
So, yeah, I mean, there is an inordinate amount of attention to money in politics and all of that. I have a friend who calls Congress the complaint department for capitalism. Because essentially we're given this story that you get to elect your leaders. And every two years or six years or four years, depending on which level of we're talking about, you make this choice and you vote. And again, on the one hand, definitely not all Democrats are leaders or good, but the only people who are any good are Democrats. So you have to reconcile yourself to both of those truths. So really, you know, you're like. When you're doing your five phone calls, right? Or you're doing the whatever action alert that you've been given by whomever that you're supposed to, like, push your member of Congress, they're not mostly listening to us. They're mostly listening to you. You gotta dance with the one that brung ya. And the one that brung ya is the donor who got you there. And so when we have politicians like Mamdani, like aoc, like, you know, Rasheeda in Michigan, like, I mean, we have other people who have not been brought there on the back of really large super PACs or really significant donors, then they actually can spend their time doing their job.
- [12:22]
B
Yeah.
- [12:23]
A
And that's. I mean, really about as simple as it gets.
- [12:27]
C
Interesting. I really didn't know that these people in Congress were calling people being like,
- [12:32]
A
can I have more money?
- [12:33]
C
I didn't either that he can have more money.
- [12:35]
B
That's crazy. Yeah.
- [12:36]
A
Call time.
- [12:37]
C
That's truly wild.
- [12:38]
B
But it's also, like, a little. It's unfortunate that, like, it just. This may not be true, but it feels like a lot of the money is owned by people who don't want to fund the things that we want.
- [12:56]
A
Yes, that's a true story. Yeah, that's a true story.
- [13:00]
B
It's like, you know, I like to dream that, like, the people can fund the people that we want to govern Us. But then there's people who have way more money than the people who can just fund anybody.
- [13:12]
C
Well, I think it's because Ogopolis keep happening like three corporations, like own everything and then they get to make the choices for everybody. And they're like, keep them in poverty.
- [13:21]
A
I don't.
- [13:22]
C
That's. Why are Okopolis allowed to happen? Yeah, why are big companies allowed to keep buying things?
- [13:27]
A
Yes. I feel like I should start doing Schoolhouse Rock like on me. Can I get a beat here? So basically it depends. How deeply into the weeds of the nerdom do you want me to get the United States, which obviously has never functioned in any kind of truly democratic or just or equal way. Let's just get that out. There has had times where we have had lesser concentrations of wealth, where we have had more equality, where we have had movement forward, you know, canonically, things like the civil rights movement, obviously women's suffrage, the passage of the Americans with Disabilities act, you know, act up clapping back in the sort of outset of HIV AIDS crisis and the New Deal. And the New Deal, like, you know, feel free to yell at me and call me a New Deal apologist. Obviously didn't attend to issues of racial justice and issues of gender, but was like a pretty big leap forward in terms of breaking up monopolies, ending, you know, so called gilded age. And a big piece of that was first of all just how bad it had gotten right with the Great Depression and how absolutely terrible it was. But we had a president at that time, fdr, who literally said to the robber barons of the age, you know, the people who would be our billionaires today, I welcome their hatred, I welcome their ire. If they're shit talking me, he probably didn't say shit. Oh no, he was in a wheel,
- [15:07]
B
you know, who knows what he was
- [15:08]
A
saying off the record. He wasn't on podcasts. He was saying like there are sides. There is the side of working people and there is the side of capital. And that was a time. And this is what is so deeply infuriating to me as a person who works in politics. That was an era and sure was a long time ago in which the working class didn't just vote Democratic. Being a Democrat was core to their identity. It was like who they were. And so now fast forward to today and we have these reactionary centrist pundits who are telling Democrats all the time that the way to win is to throw trans people under the bus. Or the way to win is to throw immigrants under the bus. And you have to appeal to this moderate middle, which, by the way, has never proven true. And in reality, we had a time in which the working class was like all in for Democrats, because there's actually a very simple message to give people. It's actually not hard. We're doing it in other countries. And it's this. If you'd like to know who took your money, it's the people with all the money. That's how you can tell. And if they can convince you that it is a newcomer or a person of color or a person who's struggling to make ends meet, or a person who has more month than check, or a person who has a different gender or who is trans, then they can keep robbing you. Basically. Authoritarians all over the world have one story, and that story is, you know, why your life is fucked? It's because of those people. And those people can be Roma, if you're Orban and Hungary, Those people can be people seeking asylum, as the case in Australia. Those people can be inner city crime or welfare queens, as we had once upon a time in this country, or they can be quote, unquote, illegals.
- [17:08]
B
Yeah.
- [17:08]
A
And so the name of the authoritarian game is to convince people that your problem is because of some undeserving group and that I am gonna be your savior. I am going to come and sort of rid you of the scourge of these undeserving people who take away money from hardworking people who are cod as white and give it away to lazy, undeserving people who are coded as black and brown. And so that just breeds status threat. And the cycle goes on and on. And the only way to counter that cycle is to get people to point their finger at the bad guy and not the brown guy.
- [17:46]
B
But how do we do that?
- [17:47]
C
Put it on a shirt. I really like that.
- [17:51]
B
Yeah. This finger's pointing at the bad guy.
- [17:55]
C
Not the brown guy.
- [17:56]
B
Not the brown guy.
- [17:57]
C
Yeah. How does one do that?
- [17:59]
A
Yeah. So how one does it? And we have done it. Let me start with concrete examples. So I have worked in Minnesota for almost 10 years, since 2017. And when Minnesota, before Minnesota popped off at the start of the year, I think, as we all know. Right, Sorry. It's like very hard. Just how deeply sad and horrific everything is. I was saying to folks since last summer, oh, the epicenter of both the repression and the resistance is gonna be Minnesota. And everyone was like, no, it's not. It's gonna be California or it's gonna be New York. It's gonna be like one of these blue places. And I said, no, it's gonna be Minnesota. Because the coastal places, we're already dead to them. Like maga's, like, you know, that's where people go to commit crimes and drink kombucha. Like, there's no hope for them. You know what I mean? Like, we're a wasteland of terrible, terrible ideas where we're like, woke.
- [19:13]
C
Right?
- [19:14]
A
Like, we call it wokeland. There's no hope for us. But Minnesota is the heartland. Minnesota is the Midwest. Minnesota is where this largely white state. Cause it is a majority white state, pretty significantly, has had, at least since the 90s, a pretty significant Somali American population. And that Somali American population made the right wing in that state unleash what I call the turducken of hatred. So, anti black, anti Muslim, anti immigrant, because you have this population that you can sort of attack as other from three dimensions.
- [19:55]
B
Yeah.
- [19:57]
A
And in 2016, Republicans came within 10,000 votes of almost winning Minnesota Trump. And that was the closest a Republican had come since the 1980s in that state. So they started with this Somali daycare fraud. Somali daycare fraud. This isn't new. It's happening again. And instead of doing what other people have done, which is like, la la la la la la la. We just won't talk about race. La la la la la la la. We'll just be like, yes. We also are gonna crack down on them the way that Democrats often do. They actually developed, and I'm proud to have been a part of it, this clapback we call the race class narrative. So this was a thing we studied, we spent a lot of time researching it. And in essence, it's the way that you counter this story. And so it starts by opening with a shared value, creating what's called the big we. So that can sound like no matter what we look like, where we come from, most of us believe people who work for a living ought to earn a living. Or whether we're white, black or brown, native or newcomer, most of us want to leave things better off for those to come. So you make some statement that everyone's like, yeah, you know, except for like the. The small sliver of assholes who just, like, will never agree with you. And there always are. And then in the second sentence. So that's the value sentence. The second sentence is the villain sentence. The order is values, villain, vision. The villain sentence is, but today MAGA Republicans, or but today this person who is running, or, but today a wealthy and powerful few want to turn us against each other. They hope that if they get us to point our finger in the wrong direction, we won't notice while they pick our pocket with the other hand. You basically narrate the dog whistle. You tell them this is the world's most evil magic trick, which is like, look over there. And then you say, but we know better. By coming together, we can make this a place where whatever it is you're working on or demanding, like raise the wage or do 100% clean energy or whatever. So they started implementing that. But in 2017, in preparation for the 2018 midterm, which they basically swept through a campaign we called Greater Than Fear. And we called it Greater Than Fear because the rural parts of Minnesota are called Greater Minnesota. And that's where the concentration of this, like anti black, anti migrant sentiment was. And they just kept building and building and building on that through, of course, the murder of George Floyd in 2020, in the midst of the pandemic, and still just like forthrightly, no matter what the right wing was saying. Right. When the Republican leader said that Tim Walls, who's the governor, owes an apology to suburban moms after the George Floyd protests. Suburban moms is another kind of dog whistle. It's supposed to mean, I mean, we know. What does suburban moms mean?
- [22:51]
C
White mother.
- [22:52]
A
Yeah.
- [22:52]
B
White woman. Right.
- [22:54]
A
Funny thing is that with gentrification, actually, the suburbs are increasingly more mixed. And it's actually the city that's getting whiter and whiter. But anyway, instead of being like, no, it isn't, you know, there isn't high crime. No, actually, you know, protests are not riots. And being in negation, which does not work, they created an entire I'm a suburban mom campaign where women were like, I'm a suburban mom. I'm absolutely devastated. I think of my own son. These motherfuckers think they're gonna. I mean, they didn't say that because they're Minnesotan. They didn't say that. They say that now. Cause they have been radicalized, the Minnesotans, these motherfuckers.
- [23:33]
B
Don't you know.
- [23:37]
A
So anyway, this is a long story, but you actually have to organize in cross racial solidarity. You have to say what you're for and you have to supplant their villain story with the true villain story. Like I said before, you know, if you want to know who took all your money, it's the people with all the money. And you have to actually, as Mamdani is doing, be like, yeah, I'm gonna tax the shit out of you.
- [24:03]
B
Yeah, okay, let's take a break and then come back for more. If you've been on social media lately, I'm sure you've heard of people talk about the importance of gut health. But how do you actually get better gut health health especially in colder months Brodo's Bone Broth this podcast is sponsored by Brodo. Welcome to the hottest trend in nutrition for the last 2000 years. Bone broth. Brodo's bone broths are made from scratch. No concentrates, preservatives or shortcuts. So you get the best bone broth money can buy. My favorite flavor from Brodo is the sampler pack that they sent me and they had this chicken flavor in it. It tastes so good. Brodo makes bone broths that are delicious enough to drink. Each cup delivers whole food prote about 10 grams per serving along with collagen, building amino acids, electrolytes and nutrients to support gut health immunity, joint skin and General Wellness. Under 50 calories and with 0 sugar or fat. But is broth actually good for you or is it just all hype? A 2025 study found that amino acids in broth heal leaky guts and strengthen immune systems. In other words, there is real science behind Grandma telling you to drink your broth when you are sick. I love Broda because it's broth made the same way great chefs and grandmas have been making it for generations. There aren't any pills, powders, additives or preservatives, only real ingredients with zero shortcuts. This doesn't taste watered down and you can tell that it's made from scratch. Brodo was launched by award winning Chef Marco Canora. He started selling Brodo out of the side door of his East Village Manhattan restaurant 11 years ago. And now, whether you want a quick warm drink or a nourishing bas for cooking, Brodo makes it easy. They ship nationwide so you don't have to be in New York City to enjoy Chef Marco's masterpiece. And Brodo comes in eight delicious flavors. From classic chicken to spicy Nona to more creative blends like ginger, turmeric, herb infused or veggie based broths. I recommend trying their sampler pack so you can figure out for yourself which flavor is best for you. From chefs like David Chang to Tom Colechio to outlets like the New York Times and Good Morning America, Brodo has been consistently recognized as a bone broth pioneer. Shout the best bone broth in the planet with brodo. Head to brodo.combestfriends for 20 off your first subscription order and use the code Best Friends for an additional $10 off. Once again, that's Brodo.com BestFriends for 20% off your first subscription order and an additional $10 off if you use the code Best Friends these days I'm all about quality over quantity, especially in my closet. If it's not well made and not versatile, it's just not worth it to me. That's honestly why I love Quince. The fabrics feel elevated, the cuts are thoughtful and the pricing actually makes sense. Quince makes high quality wardrobe staples using premium fabrics like 100% European linen, 100% silk and organic cotton poplin. Lightweight cotton cashmere sweaters. Perfect for the changing seasons and can't miss seasonal colors and prints for spring. Versatile, well made pieces that make getting dressed simple. Quince works directly with safe, ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. You're not paying for brand markup or fancy retail stores, just quality clothing. Quince uses 100% European linen. Their cotton poplin is crisp and holds its shape. The gauze is soft without being flimsy. Everything Quince makes is built to hold up up season after season. The stitching, the fit, the fabrics. These are pieces you'll reach for over and over. Quince clothing is consistently rated 4.5 to 5 stars by thousands of customers. Real people wearing these pieces every day and actually loving them. Quince is great for basics. I got these long sleeve cotton shirts I like to wear under overalls and it helps my creamy sister vibe because Nicole and I like wearing cream underalls and cream tops underneath and so they have that there and it's great to be able to mix and match different things. I already have in my closet and they have really great organically made things and I love that because we don't like having so many chemicals on our body so it's great to have things that actually breathe and are good for my body. Stop waiting to build the wardrobe you actually want. You don't need a closet full of options. You need pieces that work right now. Go to quint.combest friends for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's all a full year to wear it and love it and you will now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Q U I n c e.com BestFriends for free shipping and a 365 day return. Quince.com Best Friends I love summer but admittedly can sometimes over schedule myself with fun in the sun plans and totally forget that I Needed to go grocery shop for the week. Week factor is how I stopped letting a busy schedule be my excuse. Fully prepared meals designed by dietitians and crafted by chefs. Ready in two minutes. No planning, no cooking. I had the chicken taco bowl salad last week and it was so tasty. Like legit tasty. Feels like I got it from a restaurant, but I made it in like 2 seconds. Quality Functional ingredients, including lean proteins, colorful veggies, whole food ingredients and healthy fats. Fats, no refined sugars, no artificial sweeteners, no refined seed oils. Meals that fit your goals and schedule. Healthier eating, calorie management, more protein. There's tons of variety. 100 rotating weekly meals to keep things fresh and delicious through winter. Options include high protein calorie, smart Mediterranean diet, GLP1 support, and ready to eat salads. Plus the new muscle pro collection support supports strength and recovery. Perfect if you're getting back into a workout routine. And we can't forget about convenience. Always fresh, never frozen, right? In about two minutes. No prep, no stress. So you can actually stick to your goals. I honestly don't love to cook and I also don't like looking for groceries, so it's so nice to be able to have something that's already packaged for me. I just pull it out of my freezer, put it in the oven and it's ready to go and it's actually a delicious meal. Go to factor meals.com back best friends 50 off and use the code best friends 50 off to get 50 off and free breakfast for a year offer only valid for new factor customers with code and qualifying auto renewing subscription purchase. Make healthier eating easy with factor.
- [30:47]
C
We're back ready for more.
- [30:49]
B
It sounds like storytelling is like a really great tool to like, get people to understand what's happening around them. Like, yeah, I mean, which I feel like storytelling is definitely being used on both sides, obviously, but finding a way to tell the story in a way that's like, that'll get people on board as far as like, oh, that's happening to me actually, or like, that's happening close to my home is. It seems hard to get people to be like, I believe this story as opposed to this other story. That also sounds enticing.
- [31:19]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is what. But it's important to understand the way the right wing does their narrative is that they live their narrative so they don't just do what a lot of left folks do, which is like, we're gonna do a press release or we're gonna like, tweet some stuff or blue sky some stuff or whatever. Some stuff. They actually do things in the world. I call it the Bonnie Raitt strategy. Let's give them something to talk about. You can't replace a something with a nothing. So, for example, when the story is LA is a crime ridden hellscape and DC is a crime ridden hellscape, and Chicago and Portland, before Minneapolis St. Paul became the epicenter, a lot of folks tried to clap back at that with like, actually, we've controlled crime. Actually, we have a common sense solution to create a series of policies. And you know, that makes you sound like the adults in the Charlie Brown cartoon. Like, that message doesn't work because nobody hears it because all they hear is like, crime, crime. And now you're actually saying crime in order to say we've lowered crime. Actually the crime rate has reduced from da, da, da. So you have to figure out a way, if you're doing one on one communication, to do storytelling, but you have to figure out a way to break a signal through the noise. So in Portland, the way that folks did that was with giant inflatable frogs.
- [32:47]
B
Yeah, I love that.
- [32:50]
A
And the inflatable frogs, yes, came about because one extraordinarily courageous human being just would go to Southeast Portland and protest in a frog costume. But the organizers, being smart people, went and bought up all the inflatables that they could find in town and then ordered more. And so now if you go to Southeast Portland and you want, there is a costume lending library.
- [33:14]
B
Whoa.
- [33:15]
A
You don't have to think to bring one. And so it's both this, like, extraordinarily powerful symbol. Because when you see this image of, you know, these thug, masked militia ice dudes and like a bunch of inflatables, it's a little hard to maintain this narrative that they're law enforcement, like, doing this noble thing in Minnesota, you know, the inflatable thing, like, that's not quite the Minnesota character. That wasn't quite the fit for that community. And so instead what we did was we got footage of not just the harms and the horrors which were everywhere. And it is important for people to see those depictions because it does change their minds. Like, that video footage is important. And actually I should say, because we're in la, the drumbeat of mind change actually started here. And we can see it in metrics of social media. The beginning of the ascendancy of people flipping on ice and whether ice is okay and whether we should abolish ice actually began with the protests and the Clap back here. And it was because of this steady stream of content of people seeing these ICE encounters that then when there were the murders of Renee Goode and Alex Preddy, they couldn't force their story that these people were domestic terrorists or that this was just one bad apple doing this thing. But rather, we'd already established a drumbeat that this is what it was. We've moved public opinion on ice, but not just on ice on whether or not immigrants are awesome to the tune of 20 points plus in nine months. So public opinion is not fixed. And the things that move it are what we do. So back to your question, which I haven't forgotten. Yes, stories are incredibly important, but the most persuasive tool that we have in our arsenal is something we call in psychology, social proof, which is just the middle school theory of messaging. It just means that people do the thing they think people like them do. So if you're in a new town and you're trying to figure out where to eat, and you see a line of people at this restaurant, and you see no people at that restaurant, you
- [35:35]
B
go to the one with the line.
- [35:36]
A
The line. And if you have children, they're like, what the fuck is your problem? Like, do we have to wait in line? Because you're like, that's probably better food.
- [35:45]
B
Right?
- [35:46]
A
That is a normal human instinct. And so when they have their red hats and someone who is apolitical, low information, which is the vast majority of us voters, and you land in Fresno or you land in central Pennsylvania, or you land in wherever and you're like, I guess this is what a me kind of person thinks, then that's what happens. Because what the right understands is that if your words don't spread, they don't work. And so in contrast, when you have people doing mutual aid, doing rapid response, or here when the protests began, when you have people sort of out in solidarity, then other people wanna do that because that's the thing to do. And that more than anything is what persuades people, is what they see other people doing.
- [36:40]
C
I have a question. Before it gets to the point of needing to protest, how do you speak to people who maybe don't understand common sense? Cuz to me the whole ICE of it all is so ICE is hunting illegals who are criminals, but police officers who went through training couldn't find those criminals, but ice, who has less training can. So like, how, how do you speak to someone who literally is not coming from a place of common sense?
- [37:09]
A
Yeah, yeah. So first you have to make an assessment Whether they are, like, completely lost to you and they are in the Qanon hole, and they are, like, you know, Trump is their Jesus. This. If they're in that situation, you should not be talking to them because, like, you would, you know, like, that fake fruit is more likely to convert. Sorry if I'm not supposed to talk about the fruit.
- [37:35]
B
Yeah, that's fine. It's real. It's real.
- [37:37]
C
It's real.
- [37:38]
B
I eat those grapes.
- [37:40]
A
Okay, And. And how long has it been real? How, How, How?
- [37:46]
B
It's fake.
- [37:49]
A
So first you have to make an assessment, like, is this person truly conflicted or are they lost to me? Lost to me. A lot of people on the left waste a lot of time just trying to be right. You know, there's a canard in relationships. You can choose to be right, or you can choose to be happy. And we like to be right, and I like to win. That's what I mean by happy. So I'm not trying to waste my time. So let's say this person you're talking about is conflicted. Like, there's still a prayer to be had, right? They're not. Like, there's somewhere to get in. So what you need to do with them is understand what their motivations and desires are. So let's pretend we know. Like, they're worried about crime. They're worried about safety. Let's, like, give them the benefit of the doubt that that's what's going on. You say to them, yeah, I totally hear you. I think it's the most normal thing in the world to want to be saved. Like, of course. Who doesn't want to feel safe where we live? That's essential. And, you know, I feel like we actually know what keeps us safe. It's living in communities where people know each other and they look out for their neighbors. We know what keeps us safe. It's having the people who are sworn to serve and protect us act in our interest and respect us as equals. We know what keeps us safe. It's when we have enough support that, you know, a bad day or getting down on your luck doesn't mean destroying your life. But today, what we've got going on is this mass militia running through our towns, assaulting people and abducting them, beating them up, no questions asked. And even, as we've seen, murdering them, that has absolutely nothing to do with safety and everything to do with. With terrorizing people. Because they know if we blame newcomers, we're not noticing. While billionaires don't pay their taxes and Screw us all. You basically narrate the dog whistle. You tap into what is the thing this person actually desires. And then the other thing, and this is one of my many soapboxes. But we have to do a better job with our language and not give in to the dominant language of the regime. So what I mean by that. And I call them a regime and not a government or an administration. I will never call them the Trump administration. It's deeply normalizing. They're not an administration. I will not say deportations. Deportation implies due process. There isn't. These are abductions and assaults. But the main thing is we cannot keep talking about this as immigration policy and immigration enforcement in order to say, like, immigration enforcement has gone too far. Like, Americans are turning against their. None of this is immigration enforcement. There's no immigration. People are not immigrating. And so that is not being enforced. So we have to call these things as they are, which is crimes against humanity. We have to call the concentration camps. Concentration camps, because they are. And is that person gonna instantly come over to you and be like, good point, Nicole. I'm on your side. Probably not. But they. At least you will have created a fissure. You will have created a moment of like, well, shit, what is going on? And then you can say, look, like, this is how I see it. Why don't you watch what they're actually doing? Why don't you judge them by what they're doing? Mm.
- [41:29]
B
It does feel like there's like, a little. A tiny bubbling of people regretting voting for Trump and being like, wait, hey, wait a minute. This is actually. This is actually not what I voted for. This is actually. Which is crazy, because he said exactly what he was gonna do. So it is what they voted for. But, yeah, having a little bit of like, well, I don't want people to be murdered. I don't want people to be abducted from their homes. And it feels like a little bit like a delicate moment, like herding feral cats. Being like, I don't wanna scare you. I don't wanna be like, told you so. Because that makes them retreat back to where they were. But how do you kind of entice those brains a little bit to be like, okay, great initial thought, and what else? How else can we get you out of that hole?
- [42:25]
A
Yeah. So I will answer that question, but I also wanna challenge the premise of that question. Okay, so that question lives inside of a theory of change that we all are subjected to in the United States that I call electoralism. Electoralism is the theory where the way that we make change is through voting, is through changing 50. We need to get to 50% plus one. Like, that's what our aim is. Because we know that's like. Like what's required. Nevermind the Electoral College and all the clusterfuck that that is. But, like, you know, as a rule of thumb, 50% plus one. And electoralism is also where we think that the way that we make change is by making our five phone calls and, like, telling Chuck Schumer to find a spine or, like, you know, telling Gavin Newsom to, like, stop talking to, like, Ben Shapiro and perhaps, like, tax a fucking billionaire. And we somehow, even though. When we watch Democrats say things like, I'm gonna try to persuade my colleagues to do bipartisan. Bipartisanship, Bipartisan solutions. We do that, Lucy, with the football. And we're like, you're fucking idiot. Like, Republicans are never gonna go along. I keep telling people, I'm like, why do you think you're gonna pressure Democrats into doing a thing? Like, why are you trying that? And I will answer your question about how you deal with that person. But. But in reality, when we look at successful movements that have fallen, like when a country has fallen into an authoritarian context, and that includes the United States, because we have had authority. Jim Crow was an authoritarian regime within this country and to this day persists to a certain degree, even if some laws have changed and they are trying to bring them back. So what has actually worked to get people out of authoritarianism? It is sustained, nonviolent direct resistance. It is not the opposition party. Like, that's not how people think about the civil rights movement. Think about if the folks who did the Montgomery bus boycott were like, you know, they're not letting us sit where we need to on the bus. So I think what we're gonna do is we're gonna call a Democrat and we're gonna. Maybe we just. Or the people at the outse were like, you know, I think we just haven't, like, done our five phone calls to Democrats. And that's why they won't give us act. What did they do? They went and busted into the New York Stock Exchange, hung a banner from, you know, where the bell gets rung saying, sell Burroughs welcome. Which was the company, the corporation that made azt. And then they did a die in. Like, the political class moves when the population forces them to move with exceptions. And, you know, an occasional leader who is, like, actually a leader. So that's sort of my challenge to the premise of, like, how do we move this person or how do we make sure we don't kind of backslide with them? They are moved by what they view the dominant culture doing. When it becomes not okay socially to do certain things, like to oppose marriage equality, then suddenly they don't oppose marriage equal, because that's the dominant thing. And the reason why people have shifted on ice is because they have witnessed, yes, the attacks, but they've also witnessed the heroism. They've witnessed people blowing the ice whistle. They've witnessed people doing mutual aid. And so that becomes common sense. But to that person, if you are talking to them and you see them make this opening, yes, it's true. I've never had the experience of telling someone like, you're a fucking moron. And what were you doing a year ago or two years ago? And why did you vote that way? And had them be like, yes, please tell me more. I'm very excited to talk to you. So you do have to. And when I say you, I mean the people who can stomach this, because I don't actually think everyone should be subjected to this. Like, I really don't. Yeah, but if that is you, because that is your family or that is your friend group, and like, you have the wherewithal to do this, like, God bless you, then what you want to do is you want to create what's called the permission architecture for someone to change their mind. And that involves not being judgmental of them. It involves saying, yeah, you know, I think what I've heard you say in the past is that you voted this way because you really believed in protecting your family. You really believed that this would get you out of the struggle and that, you know, I mean, I can tell you this is what is so infuriating. All of 2024, we were doing research. I'm a researcher. And what we found is that the core difference between the Kamala Harris voter and the not Harris, meaning Trump third party or stay home, was not how much they loved the proposed agenda. It was us when we asked the question, do you think they will do it? The difference between the Harris voter and the not Harris voter was what I came to call the credulity chasm. It was, do you think they'll do it? And the Harris voter, some of whom were like, you know, the K hive and like, yeah. And some of whom were like, I can't believe I have to vote for this person. Their common thread was, I believe they'll do it. And the not Harris voter, their common thread was, he didn't do it last time. You always say, he's gonna do this thing. He just says things. I don't really think it's gonna happen. The Supreme Court will stop him. Congress will stop him. And what I remember from last time is I got a trip check. What I remember from last time is that I got a check. So, okay, so now that that credulity chasm is closing. And in fact, if you look at disapproval, the highest shift from approval to disapproval is among the lowest information people. The people who knew the least are the ones who've shifted the most. And so now that they are understanding that, that they said they'd do it, and they are, what you say to them is like, yeah, you know, you made a set of decisions, and luckily now you can make a different set of decisions based on those same principles. Like, you do want to protect your family. You do want to be able to make ends meet. You do want to be able to have a better future. And that's why you can join us in fighting this regime. Like, let them keep their purported values.
- [49:04]
C
Yeah.
- [49:04]
B
Let's take a little break.
- [49:10]
C
Support for this podcast is brought to you by Chamberlain University. I have to tell you, anytime I go to the hospital or a clinic, my anxiety is absolutely through the roof. It's just an overwhelming, scary place to be. But I feel like we've all experienced meeting an exceptional nurse who walks into the room and changes your day completely. They are so experienced, and they know exactly what to say to take the panic out of the room and make a terrifying day feel completely manageable. And if you're looking for a new career path or you just want to do a job that truly matters, you cannot help but think, wow, that is exactly the kind of nurse I want to be. Chamberlain University is where you start. Discover your calling at Chamberlain. Edu Chamberlain University belong to something greater. Certified to operate by Chev.
- [50:03]
B
Starting something new isn't just hard, it's terrifying. So much work goes into this thing that you're not entirely sure will work out, and it can be hard to make that leap of faith. Trust me, I know. When we started this podcast, we weren't even sure what we were doing. What if no one listens? What if I make a fool out of myself? Now I know that we were right in believing in ourselves, despite all the fears and hesitations. It also helps when you have a partner like Shopify on your side to help. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like road skims and rare beauty to brands that are just getting started. Get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style. Accelerate your efficiency Whether you're uploading new products or trying to improve existing ones, Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. Get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. Best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. What if people haven't heard about my brand? Shopify helps you find your customers with easy to run email and social media campaigns. And what if I get stuck? Shopify is always around to share advice with their award winning 24. 7 customer support. Tackle all those important tasks in one place. From inventory to payments to analytics and more. No need to save multiple websites or try to figure out what platform is hosting the tool that you need. Everything is all in one one place, making your life easier and your business operations smoother. And did I mention that iconic Purple Shop pay button that's used by millions of businesses around the world? It's why Shopify has the best converting checkout on the planet. It also helps boost conversions, meaning less carts going abandoned and more sales for you. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com best friends go to shopify.com best friends that's shopify.com best
- [52:30]
C
friends there's a lot of discussion about the effects of GLP1s nowadays with regards to weight loss, but there are a lot of other potential benefits to consider as well that can impact your health journey. Not only can patients lose weight using row body, but they can also expect to have better lab numbers, more energy energy, new levels of confidence and more benefits that go beyond the scale. ROE offers the First FDA approved GLP1 pill for weight loss at the lowest cost around. The new GLP1 pill has the same weight loss ingredients as the shot and packs comparable results to the shot. It can help patients lose 14 of their body weight in a year on average. That's one daily pill for fewer cravings and feeling fuller with with an innovative new formula clinically proven to maximize weight loss, the new FDA approved GLP1 is available for $149 for the first dose. In addition to your RO membership fee and $299 a month for higher doses. The robody membership includes access to FDA approved GLP1s, unlimited provider messaging, side effect management and more, all for just $45 for your first month and $145 a month thereafter. The ROE membership fee excludes the cost of GLP1 medication. In addition to the newly approved pill, RO also offers a full suite of the most effective brand name FDA approved GLP1s all at the lowest cost. RO offers the lowest cost GLP1s. Whether you're using insurance or paying cash, after your first online visit, you're eligible for treatment. You can expect to start your medication in less than a week week if paying cash or about two weeks of using insurance. If this is something that you've been thinking about doing, something that, like a journey, a weight loss journey that you really want to go on, I really do think ROE is a good option. And you know, a weight loss journey is a hard thing to do. And maybe you could find someone that you know who's been on a GLP1 and you can speak to them because friends are who you need in life. Life. Go to Ro BestFriends to see if you're eligible for the new GLP1 pill on Roe. That's Ro Co Best Friends. To get started on Roe, go to Ro Co Safety for box warning and full safety information about GLP1 medications based on study and non diabetics with obesity or overweight plus a weight related condition with diet and exercise.
- [55:06]
A
Guys.
- [55:11]
B
And we're back.
- [55:12]
C
It was such a tiny break.
- [55:14]
B
Such a little tiny break.
- [55:15]
C
Okay, I have a question. Maybe you don't, maybe you don't know the answer, but maybe it seems like you will. Or I'll make it up and then I'll have to decipher. So Detroit used to be like Motor City.
- [55:28]
B
Yeah.
- [55:28]
C
It used to be where like Ford's headquarters were gm. Like they used to make cars here and assemble them here. And that was like a blue collar city where people could like buy houses and live a very nice life.
- [55:39]
A
Yeah.
- [55:40]
C
And then they started sourcing the production outside of the country. And then people suffered. So like I understand that capitalism is like the people on top make the most money, but like when people work, I guess I don't understand why things like that happen.
- [55:57]
A
Yeah.
- [55:57]
C
Where I'm like. But also if people hear make more money, they then spend more money. So why not keep the jobs here? Cause if you source them out, then people have money over there to spend. That's not contributing to our economy.
- [56:10]
A
Yeah, yeah. So Detroit used to be America's third largest city. Did you know that?
- [56:15]
C
Yes.
- [56:16]
A
And Detroit's amazing. Oh yeah. I love Detroit. I love Detroit. The architecture, it's extraordinary. It's a beautiful place. So. So yes, there used to be an understanding. And in fact, Henry Ford, who's like a pretty shitty guy for a lot of reasons at least knew to say I need to pay people at least enough to be able to buy my car. Like, he literally said that, like, you know, like, you gotta be able to buy the thing if I'm gonna sell the thing. Because he had grand visions that like everyone was gonna have a car. And, you know, now they do. So basically with globalization and with trade deals, let's just be honest, like nafta, people saw that they could have both and like they could drive down labor costs by outsourcing things, as you've said, but they could also enable consumption in lots and lots and lots of other places. And basically what's happened to the United States in broad strokes is that we've moved away from making things to service industries and that rich people have moved away from making things to making things up. Like the way that they make their money is by moving ones. And now with AI, like they're just, it's all ones and zeros and like movement of capital from one place to the other. And they became uninterested in actually maintaining any kind of decent standard of living for people because they could always go out and find new ways of making money. I mean, they're just like the United States economy has become so called financialized. Like the money is made off of make believe. I mean, that's why we had like the 2008 crash. They're selling things that don't exist. Have I explained it well to you? Do you understand it?
- [58:04]
C
Yes and no. I guess at a fundamental, like, level, if I have a company, yes, I would like, like Henry Ford, like, I want to pay people enough to buy the car, which is like, not nice, but like, makes sense to me.
- [58:18]
A
Yeah.
- [58:19]
C
And it feels like nobody's doing that anymore.
- [58:21]
B
Like we're charging more and paying less.
- [58:23]
C
Yes.
- [58:23]
B
So it's like, where's the money coming from then? You said it's just debt.
- [58:28]
A
Yeah, it's coming from debt. It's coming from, you know, places overseas. But for the most part, like what people are selling, and I'm exaggerating, it's not everybody, but like they're selling speculation, they're selling like trading on commodities. They're selling. It's gambling. Like, the whole thing. They're making money off of predictions around what will make money. And so you don't need to have people pay. Like, you're not making a product that you're selling to people. Mm.
- [58:58]
C
I think that makes sense. I guess I'm just like, how come everyone isn't nicer?
- [59:04]
A
Yeah, that's the real question. But, you know, the reality is most people are nicer. They just don't have power. Power.
- [59:12]
B
That's true.
- [59:13]
C
Makes a lot of sense.
- [59:14]
A
And also the other thing is that as we've had this, like, escalation at a global level of how few hands hold how much wealth. Like, the number of complete and total assholes. Like, it's very few people. Like, you know, we could just go to Sand Hill Road, which is where all the venture capitalists have their offices in Palo Alto. Like, they're all there. And, like, I have. I'm like, why is there no Occupy Sandhill Road? Why is there no actions on. Like, it's really so few people, but they have so much power that it can feel like, why aren't people nicer? It's like, almost no people. I mean, you said it before, like, the Ellisons are about to own, like, all of media, right?
- [60:06]
C
And I'm just like, how is that fucking legal? How is that?
- [60:09]
A
Like, it's legal because those laws were undone. It used to not be legal. And that was a huge part of the New Deal, was passing laws around monopolies, passing laws around the consolidation of capital. But over time, what happened was this thing called sort of the neo. Called neoliberalism, not just in the US but around the world, where things. This idea was, a rising tide lifts all boats, which sounds nice. It turns out a rising tide is just climate change, and you're about to drown. But this is where Democrats stopped being honest and being like, there are sides. There is capital and there is labor, and we will be on the side of labor, and Republicans will be on the side of capital. And that is why you want us. Because we will defend and support and uphold and enlarge unions, which is the only durable. The only durable counterweight to this is unions, period. And you all are in a union. Like, you are unionized workers, and very few people in America are unionized workers. Like, God bless your union. It's a really big deal to be in a union. And without that, you really don't have. Even with the left, like, the fame that you have and the following you have. And, like, people love you even. That is not enough power against capitalism. Like, you still have to be collectivized. And, you know, that's what people in unionized industries, and there aren't that many of them anymore, know. And once the oligarchs were able to basically destroy the power of unions, they got to be able to destroy everything else. And that's really what happened. Happened.
- [61:54]
B
Yeah. Is there a way. See if I can try to tie this to friendship? Yeah. Is there a way to kind of regain that collective thought or, like, lean on your community and feel a little less alone? Because sometimes it gets very overwhelming looking at the news and feeling, like, what am I supposed to do? Like, little old me. Especially if, like, you know, making my five phone calls goes into the ether, and it's like, what else can I do? Like, how can people who are listening feel like I can gather my community and actually make some change?
- [62:31]
A
Yeah. Thank you for asking. First of all, like, yes, we need to be voting. Yes, we need to be agitating these people. Like, we. The election does absolutely matter. I don't want to leave it thinking that it doesn't. Elections, voting is how we decide who we're up against. That's how I think of, like, do you want your protest to be up against, you know, do you want Democrats ultimately to be listening, or do you want Republicans? Because the latter never will. Like, you're picking the conditions in which you will fight through direct action. And, you know, we wouldn't have civil rights legislation if we didn't have Democrats in power to sign it. But it took the boycotting and the organizing in order to make Democrats do it. So one of the things that most struck me the day that Renee Goode was murdered. I had several conversations with organizers in Minnesota, and they all independently said the same thing to me. They said in, like, a kind of dumbstruck, horrified way, no one is coming. There is. Nobody's coming to end this, to stop. Like, there are soldiers on our streets. You know, these are people. Like, one woman was saying to me that in her first ICE encounter, in a quiet moment, she said to him, sir, what do you think you're doing here? And he's like, I'm here to protect you from, you know, whatever. And she said, sir, this is Minneapolis. Like, the biggest thing that's happened on this street is some kid stole another kid's bicycle. And then we had to, like, make him say sorry. Like, I don't know where you think you are, but, like, there's Minneapolis. So what happened in Minnesota was that people Stopped thinking that someone was gonna come save them, which is terrifying. But they really got organized and through organizations like Protect the 612, which was modeled on a Chicago based organization called Protect the rp, which is Rogers Parks neighborhood. There they actually started doing block by block rapid response direct organizing where they created plans, they have signal channels where people sign up, you know what your assignment is. The estimates are that at one point between 60 and 70% of the population of Minneapolis was doing rapid response or mutual aid.
- [65:01]
B
Wow.
- [65:02]
A
And, and so in every community, there either is this or you can create it. And what you can do is go to an organization called States at the Core.
- [65:13]
B
States at the Core.
- [65:14]
A
States at the Core and they have trainings where they teach you how to create a rapid response network among the people that you know in your very own town. Or they tell you there already is one, it's here. And most places, if there already is a rapid response network, it's gonna be through some big immigrant rights org that's usually who is like manning these or governing these things. So they will teach you, like, how did you, you know, what do you need to report? When do you need to report it? To whom do you need to report it? What is your shift? When are you showing up for your shift? Like, what are you supposed to do? And so that's really what people can be doing in their own communities. It's extraordinarily empowering. You're going to find like minded people. You're going to not just feel like you're doing something, you are doing something and you're gonna create social proof for other people to be like, this is how my community, when the threats were that they were gonna come to Springfield, Ohio to get again the Haitian population there. Springfield, which is a Republican town, Republican mayor, Republican city council, that community was like, no, you don't. Oh, being Ohio. Oh, no, you don't bring hate to our state. Oh no, you don't try to turn, turn us against each other. When people are visibly doing that, then other people are visibly doing that. So yeah, that's very much what you can be doing.
- [66:37]
B
Yeah, I love that.
- [66:39]
C
I like that too.
- [66:40]
B
Yeah.
- [66:40]
C
Isn't it annoying though that we have to do all this? Like, why can't the government just be nice and good? Also, isn't it wild that Mark Zuckerberg has so much money he created a metaverse because I don't think he has a friend.
- [66:50]
A
Yeah.
- [66:50]
C
No. People that really. He created like an alternate reality to make friends because he can't talk in person. To people like, isn't that crazy? And he's got all the money.
- [67:01]
A
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, yeah. This male lonely. Like the fact that these dudes and really it's like 90x percent dudes, like, just never learned how to be rejected. Like, literally did not have comprehensive sex ed that was good enough to be like when someone, especially a girl, is like, I don't want to play with you. Like, this is how you buck the fuck up, dude. And because no one bothered to tell them that they like, you know, this is where we are, basically.
- [67:34]
B
Basically, yeah. Mm.
- [67:37]
C
Well, been a pretty heavy episode.
- [67:42]
A
Sorry.
- [67:42]
C
No, I'm kidding. I think, I don't know. I think for someone like me who is ill informed, who it's funny. Cause it's like, I am ill informed but like, I have common sense where I'm like, we should have universal healthcare. It shouldn't be tied to your job. That's insane.
- [67:58]
A
Yeah.
- [67:59]
C
But like, some people don't think like that until someone says it out loud. So I feel like people listening to this will hear some things out loud and might help them get active or just make more informed choices or being like, maybe I should read a little bit of everything before I vote.
- [68:15]
A
Yeah.
- [68:15]
C
So thank you for doing this episode.
- [68:17]
B
Yeah.
- [68:18]
A
Yeah. And I think the other thing, you know, there's a very famous Italian Marxist philosopher who was imprisoned by Mussolini and he, his big famous quotation, it's been translated different ways, but the old world is dying. The new world is yet to be born. Now is the time of monsters and the old world is dying. The neoliberal order, the kind of destroy everything in order to suck all the wealth into very few people's hands. People know. People know that shit isn't working. And a wild animal is at its most dangerous when it is in the last throes of death. And like, they know their number is up. Like they know people aren't having this shit. And so they're going wild. And that's dangerous and it's horrific and people are being killed. And that's why I call them the MAGA murder regime. It's very important that we like, be explicit about what they are. But it also means that the new world is yet to be born and that it really is on us to step up and be the brave of us to be, to make this the land of the free and the home of the brave. We're in a persuasion window. Public opinion is shifting at a rate we have not seen in a very long time. And if we do not avail ourselves of this opportunity. We are missing out. We have the opportunity to make people hunger for a very different world. And it's on us to do that.
- [69:53]
B
Yeah, I love that.
- [69:55]
C
I like that too.
- [69:58]
B
Thank you so much. Thank you for doing this. Is there anything else you want to tell us?
- [70:04]
A
Just that it's normal to be scared. We're all scared. And those of us who've been at the front lines or who work directly with people who are in these concentration camps. Camps, it's extraordinarily scary. But bravery is not the absence of fear. It's the determination to act despite fear. And that's what we have to be. These are sniveling. This great and powerful Oz, this is a dude behind a curtain. This man can't even tie his own fucking shoelace. This man doesn't have, you know, these people, they are nothing. They are nothing. And their power is merely. Yes, it is in the horrible things that they are doing. I'm not gonna lie. But there are so many more of us than there are of them. There are so many more of us. And we just have to be really, really loud and be too fabulous for fascism. You have to be too fabulous for fascism.
- [70:59]
B
I like that.
- [70:59]
C
I like that too. And before we end, I really like that you said like not telling people they're wrong if they have like a very right leaning way of thinking and they're like kind of like tossing and turning with coming like coming into the light and realizing that like we should all help one another. Because I feel like a lot of videos I see are like liberal comedians being like, I gotcha, you idiot. And it's like, well, if you call someone an idiot, they, they'll never want to like change or like help out. So I really like wanted to amplify that and I think that's like a really nice way to speak to people
- [71:32]
A
who have different beliefs.
- [71:33]
C
To be like, we kind of want the same thing, safety and like, you know, the economy to be stable and whatnot.
- [71:38]
B
Anyway, we've actually gotten questions from our listeners because people ask friendship questions on the show. And we've had people be like, my childhood friend is marrying a Republican and I'm queer. And I don't understand how they can be, how they can like accept that knowing that my rights are being infringed upon or like, or my actual friend is growing up and changing and it's very sad to see and I don't know, like I'm cutting them off or I don't know if I should cut them off or how to communicate with this person who, like, has loved me, but for some reason isn't seeing me in the situation when they are thinking about the world or their beliefs or whatever.
- [72:22]
A
Yeah.
- [72:22]
B
And so. And, like, we don't always know how to answer those questions because, like, that's hard. That is hard when you have grown up with somebody or you've loved someone for so long and you're like, whoa, wait a minute, you think differently. Which, like, I think when you scale it down to what you were saying before, it was like, oh, it's safety that you want. We all want safety. But, like, your view of how we get there is just different. And that can be hard.
- [72:50]
A
Yeah. I mean, what I do with every client that we ever have is they tell me, how should I message X? Like, how should I message Y? I ask them two questions. I say, what do you wish people believed? And upon believing that, what do you need them to do? And so at an interpersonal level, when people come to me and, you know, I mean, I work in politics, so I do broadcast communications. Like, I'm writing ads, I'm writing speeches for, like, a million people at a time. You don't have the luxury of, like, going into nuance and whatever, which is what you want to do in interpersonal communication. But when someone is like, my friend is changing or marrying someone or whatever, then you make an assessment with them of, okay, what is it that you want from this relationship and how are we gonna be able to get that for you? And if what you want from this relationship is actually impossible, like, it is beyond the bounds because this person has clearly proven themselves sort of untrustworthy of that, then, yeah, sometimes you do have to cut off relationships, you know, for lots of reasons. But if they are still kind of approachable, they're like, I want them to respect me, or I want them to value my partner, who I'm queer, and I want them to respect me and my partner, then what you have to do is you have to speak to them in terms they understand and say, I understand that you love your husband. I know you love Doug. He's been there for you and he's supported you, and you've had. God knows, you've had your share of assholes before, and I can see that you feel safe and proud. Well, I love Nicole. And that relationship that you have with Doug, I guess I should be doing this opposite way. Sorry, I'm confusing the entire thing. We'll just play act like this.
- [74:44]
B
Yeah.
- [74:47]
A
That love and that attachment and that commitment that you have to him. That's what we have. And my fear, I'll just be honest with you, is given some of the things that he said or some of the things that I know he believes, it feels like there might not be a space and a place for my partner and the love that we have. Like, you just talk like a normal person, I guess is what I'm saying. Yeah, it's really interesting.
- [75:14]
C
It really feels like the vast majority of people don't have empathy unless you make it relatable specifically to them.
- [75:20]
A
Yeah, that's wild. Well, yes, and we have done a pretty piss poor job of framing things through the lens of empathy. And what I mean by that is, I mean, you know, in an effort to make myself unpopular with all people, like when I'm working with, let's say, queer groups, I will be like, do you really feel like you need to keep telling Americans that Americans hate queer people? Like, do you need this messaging for the last three years that's like state of emergency. All these anti trans and all these anti queer and all this, like they're passing legislation left and right. Like public opinion is turning against these people. And I'm like, I feel like the right sort of has the story that people hate queer people covered. And I don't really think you need to keep saying that. And the same thing is true for immigrant rights. Like we keep telling people, people hate immigrants. It's so bad, it's so evil. And that's the opposite of social proof. That is actually giving license. That is telling people that is an okay thing to think and an okay thing to feel because again, we love. Boy, have I got a problem for you. Messaging instead of doing the opposite, which is honest and saying Americans are turning out in record number, they're coming out in support of our neighbors like never before. Across this country we see people speaking out for trans folks. When we do testing and we ask people, like in a forced choice between trans people should have the freedom to live their own lives and trans people are a threat to our communities, we should stop them. The vast majority of people, even people who live in plus 15 Trump places, believe the first thing more than the second thing. But then when we ask them, if you had to guess how other people in your state feel, they guess the other way. Like they are reliably mispredicting how xenophobic, how anti trans, how anti black other people are.
- [77:30]
C
Because the negative is just getting amplified on all sides by us. That's really interesting.
- [77:35]
A
And we also don't attempt Empathy based messaging. Because so much of progressive messaging basically boils down to, I need you to feel sorry for those people, which is what I call the AIPO recito story. Like, this is terrible and this is horrible and it is, and that's honest. But if you're trying to get people to feel sorry for those people, whether that's people experiencing homelessness or people who are struggling with addiction or people who are immigrants or people who are subject to police violence, whatever you are othering, you are actually focusing in on what differentiates when. When what actually works is to say, you know, across races, places and genders. Most of us want our kids to have the freedom to learn and explore who they are and feel comfortable when they're in school. But today these MAGA Republicans want to bully kids on the basis of their gender identity or their background or their accent while they're robbing resources from our schools to pay off their billionaire backers. We know better. We want all our children to have the freedom to learn the truth of our past and to be themselves when they're at school. Like, it's not that hard, actually.
- [78:50]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you've given us so much great information. This has been so informative and so helpful and I really appreciate it. How can people find you or find resources that you want them to.
- [79:05]
A
Yeah. So the work that we do at my team, ASO Communications, everything is open source. That's really important to us. We do not want to do projects again. We want to do it once and be done. So if you go to our website, asocommunications.com under the Learn tab, there is a messaging guide about everything. How to talk about trans folks, how to talk about climate change, how to talk about raising wages, how to talk about unions, how to talk about whatever. So that's one thing. I have a podcast called Words to Win By. It's old school. There's no video. Yes. From the golden times. And each episode is about a campaign. We won somewhere in the world. So if you would like to feel happy, progressive things do actually win. Minnesota's one of them. Jacinda Arden. Becoming prime minister of New Zealand is another ending. Closing the prison camp for people seeking asylum in Australia is another. Legalizing abortion in Argentina, et cetera. Some of them are even in Spanish and English. And so words to Win By. And then I have a substack of the same name. And I am on Blue sky under a Knotosaurus, who is a dinosaur. And that is where I try to practice what I preach and do. Good messaging, but sometimes do as I say, not as I post, because I just get so pissed off that I'm just being snarky and not like on messaging.
- [80:30]
B
I mean, snarky's fun, too.
- [80:32]
A
Yeah, Great.
- [80:33]
B
Thank you so much for coming.
- [80:34]
C
Thanks for coming.
- [80:36]
A
Well, well, off to the races to change the world. Here we go.
- [80:42]
C
I'm on a horse.
- [80:43]
B
Oh.
- [80:43]
C
Oh. Best Friends is a production of Head Gum Studio Studios.
- [80:50]
B
Our producer is Ali Khan.
- [80:52]
C
Our executive producer is Anya Khanovskaya.
- [80:55]
B
The show is edited, mixed, and engineered by Rochelle Chen.
- [81:04]
A
Hey, everyone, this is Natalie and this is Charlie. We're from the podcast Exploration Live. It's really funny. It's really good.
- [81:12]
C
It's really, really very good.
- [81:14]
A
And now we have a YouTube channel to go with it. That's exactly right, Natalie. You can watch full video episodes of our podcast exploration live@YouTube.comexplorationlivepodcast. that means that in addition to the audio component, you're also getting a video component.
- [81:30]
B
Component.
- [81:30]
A
Exactly where you're seeing our reactions, what kind of clothes we're wearing, you know, and there's a whole suite of dynamics and physical expressions that you can really only get from a full video. Body language experts to the. The front. Exactly. So come check out Exploration Live, either audio or video.