Nicole Learns All About Catios (w/ Margaret Cho)

Summary

Best Friends with Nicole Byer and Sasheer Zamata – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Nicole Learns All About Catios (w/ Margaret Cho)
Release Date: September 10, 2025
Guests: Margaret Cho (Comedian, Actor, Musician)

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Overview

In this exuberant, funny, and candid episode, Nicole and Sasheer are joined by legendary comedian and actor Margaret Cho for a conversation that bounces from the nature of long-standing friendships, to haunted houses and pet antics, to the logistics and joys of building a "catio." Along the way, the trio reflects on sustaining connections over decades, healing from friendship breakups, signs from lost loved ones, the intricacies of pet relationships, and the necessity of laughter and honesty in friendship. The episode maintains the show’s signature warmth, humor, and vulnerability, peppered with memorable stories and lots of laughter.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Margaret Cho on Friendship Longevity

• Margaret’s Best Friends: Has two current best friends—one since 1989; lost another, whom she was close with since 1982, in 2018 (02:09).

• Secrets to Long Friendships: The importance of laughter, private jokes, and mutual understanding among comics (03:02).

• Friendship Breakups: Anecdote about a “famous comedian” who cycles through friends, leaving behind a “trauma-bonded” group of former besties (03:02-05:39).

  “There’s something about laughter that transcends pettiness and arguments. … You want to have those shared private jokes forever.”
  — Margaret Cho (03:05)

2. Red Flags in Relationships & Trusting Women’s Advice

• The T App Discussion: Margaret explains an app where women could warn each other about problematic men; after being hacked, it posed serious safety risks (05:51-07:16).

• Ignoring Red Flags: Margaret and Nicole discuss times they've ignored clear warnings about people, both romantically and platonically, to their later regret (08:20-09:34).

  “Sometimes that dick get to your brain. … I should have listened [to other women].”
  — Margaret Cho (08:23)

3. Spooky Stories & Signs from Beyond

• Haunted House Adventures: Margaret shares a favorite friendship memory of ghost-hunting in Beechwood Canyon, punctuated by a mysterious scream (11:57-13:17).

• Afterlife, Signs, & Group Mourning: Margaret describes experiencing signs from friends who have passed and the healing power of communal celebration, like the "Jilith Fair" tribute concert (17:48-18:54).

  “It was really, really nice ... I felt her presence more than ever. Just with the exuberance and excitement of people belting out this song of hers.”
  — Margaret Cho (18:50)

4. The Value and Maintenance of Friendships

• Advice on Friendship: Margaret underscores the importance of investing in friendships, despite society's emphasis on romantic relationships (24:14-25:24).

• Friendship Therapy: The hosts discuss how rarely platonic friends go to therapy together, despite it being as crucial as in romantic partnerships (26:11-26:50).

  “Nobody really gives you advice on how to keep those connections alive. That’s wild.”
  — Sasheer Zamata (25:24)

5. The Power of Laughter and Shared Hatred

• Laughter as Bond: Laughter and “mutual hate” for a thing or person are cited as top friendship-bonding elements; comics are especially good at creative hating (27:20-29:41).
• Touring with Friends: Margaret prefers taking a close comic friend (Daniel Webb) as her opener for support and fun during travel (29:51-30:43).

6. Pet Relationships and Catios

• Pets as Friends: Margaret considers her three cats as friends; her house is designed for their happiness, including a catio—a secure outdoor enclosure for cats (35:00-38:12).

• Nicole’s Cat Journey: As a new cat owner, Nicole is inspired to build a catio for her cat, learning about cat tunnels and window perches (37:24-37:46, 39:03-39:26).

• Pet Compatibility in Relationships: The hosts and Margaret agree anyone who can’t be kind to their pets is a “red flag” (39:26-40:37).

  “My house is more for them than me.”
  — Margaret Cho (37:19)

7. Honest Moments and Hilarity

• Confessions of Laziness vs. Ambition: Margaret and Nicole reflect on burnout, ambition, and the appearance vs. reality of hard work in entertainment (48:02-49:49).
• The Craft of Comedy: The trio dives into what it takes to sustain a comedy career—and how many think they’re funny but aren't stage-ready (50:09-52:32).
• Family's Perception of Comedy: Mixed reactions from family regarding their comedic careers (52:32-54:07).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Laughter as Survival:
  “Laughter will bring you together. Which is why I’m always friends with comics or people who are funny in general.” — Margaret Cho (27:31)

• Pets and Personality:
  “If somebody can’t be nice to your cat or your dog, that’s the only warning you need.” — Nicole Byer (40:09)

• *Haunting as Friendship:
  “When I die, I plan on working overtime to haunt.” — Sasheer Zamata (17:00)

• On Making a House Cat-Friendly:
  “Every few feet, there’s scratchers and cat trees. … My house is more for them than me.” — Margaret Cho (37:00-37:19)

• Comedy and the Political Climate:
  “I hate this administration. I hate what’s happening politically. … Whatever I can do, as a comic, I feel like comedy got us into this, so maybe comedy can drag us out.” — Margaret Cho (58:07-59:29)

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:55–04:28: Introducing Margaret Cho and discussing long-term friendships
• 05:51–07:59: The T App, hacked safety platforms, and women protecting women
• 11:57–13:18: Ghost-hunting and favorite friendship memories
• 17:48–19:04: Signs from friends who have passed and the value of communal mourning
• 24:14–26:11: The rarity of friendship advice versus romantic advice
• 35:00–38:12: Cats as friends and elaborate catios
• 39:26–41:00: Pets as relationship “litmus test”
• 48:02–49:49: The reality of work in comedy vs. perceived laziness
• 50:09–52:32: Misconceptions about being funny and the craft of standup
• 58:07–59:52: Margaret’s political activism through comedy and her tour announcement

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Episode Tone & Highlights

• The episode is marked by quick-witted humor, moments of vulnerability, and a sense of camaraderie.
• Listeners will enjoy Margaret Cho’s candid anecdotes about showbiz, relationships, and pets.
• The discussion is peppered with laughter, teasing, and authentic moments of connection among all three comics.
• The catio segment will particularly delight pet owners.

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Margaret Cho’s Tour & Plugs

• New tour: Choligarchy (see margaretcho.com for tickets).
• Releasing six of her best standup specials, plus a new album, “Best in Show.”
• Advocacy through comedy, focusing on resisting political injustice and the dangerous rewriting of history.

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Conclusion

This episode stands out for its blend of irreverence and heart. Through stories of haunted houses, friendship breakups, beloved pets, and the struggle to prioritize platonic bonds, Nicole, Sasheer, and Margaret deliver both laughter and wisdom—reminding listeners of the irreplaceable comfort of friendship, the healing found in community, and the absolute necessity of a good laugh (and a well-built catio).

Transcript

[Margaret Cho]

This is a Headgun podcast.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Fall has arrived and I could definitely use a little wardrobe refresh for the new season, which is why I'm so excited for Macy's VIP fall fashion preview sale. It's 30% off their best brands plus 15% off beauty. I could use a new coat. And I got my eye on a trench from bcbg. And since it's layer season, I. I'm gonna grab a few sweaters from French Connection and Karl Lagerfeld might just need to throw in a pair of boots from Franco Sarto. I have a feeling I'll be wearing them all season.

[Nicole Byer]

And then some.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Shop@macy's.com or in store now through October 5th.

[Margaret Cho]

Hello.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Hello, Nicole.

[Nicole Byer]

We have a guest today. Sometimes we do that. We have the wonderful Margaret Cho, who's a comedian, actor, musician, advocate, entrepreneur, five time Grammy and Emmy nominee. And you can see her in this in season two of Disney's Percy Jackson and the Olympians and in the upcoming film I want your sex. Oh. Margaret is currently embarking on a new stand up comedy tour called Is it chola Cho?

[Margaret Cho]

Choligarchy.

[Nicole Byer]

Choligarchy.

[Margaret Cho]

Love that.

[Nicole Byer]

Margaret is currently embarking on a new stand up comedy tour called Choligarchy. Tickets are on sale sale right now and she's partnered with Goat Song Records to release six of her very best stand up comedy specials along with a brand new album called best in show. It's Margaret.

[Margaret Cho]

Hi. Thank you. Thank you.

[Nicole Byer]

Thank you for doing this.

[Margaret Cho]

Thank you. Thank you. Honored to be here. Thank you.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah, I. I'm a big fan.

[Margaret Cho]

I'm a big fan of yours and yours.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I'm a big fan of yours. I think I told you. I love you so much.

[Margaret Cho]

I love you both. This is great.

[Nicole Byer]

This is really great.

[Sasheer Zamata]

So let's just jump in.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Margaret, do you have a best friend?

[Margaret Cho]

I do, I do.

[Nicole Byer]

I have a couple.

[Margaret Cho]

I have two very best friends. Yes.

[Nicole Byer]

How long have you been friends? How long does this span?

[Margaret Cho]

One of them I've been friends, best friends with since I think about maybe 1989.

[Nicole Byer]

Wow.

[Margaret Cho]

So. And then, and then I had another best friend and she. I was best friends with her since 1982, but she died in 2018, so still holding space. And then my other best friend, I've been probably best friends with him for the last like eight years. So a little bit of like a fresh best. Like a very fresh one.

[Nicole Byer]

But still a long time.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, still a long time. But yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

What's your.

[Nicole Byer]

Ooh, you go, no, I like yours.

[Sasheer Zamata]

You don't know what mine is.

[Nicole Byer]

But it felt good. I like the enthusiasm behind it.

[Sasheer Zamata]

What's your secret to having friendships that last so long?

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah, I do like that because I.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Feel like a lot of people either cycle through friends or like, don't know how to maintain a friendship.

[Margaret Cho]

I think, well, we just laugh, you know, and like. Yeah. My one best friend who I've been friends with for a really long time, he's. Who's Alive. He is a comic. And so is the Girl who Died was a comic. And I think that when you're comics, you just. You just let. Like, there's something about laughter that transcends pettiness and arguments. And like, you want to have those, like, shared private jokes forever. I think that's part of the longevity also. I'm just not the type of person that cycles through friends. There is a very famous comedian I'm not going to mention who does that. And it's so painful and hurtful because you build. I built this, like, intense connection with her. And I know all these other female comedians. She did that too. And she'll do it every few years and she'll get another female comedian who's a best friend for a while and then they get X'd out. And it's so painful. But then you don't know what to say because it's hard to. Because you don't really get broken up with. Friendship is really hard to codify in social hierarchies. And also with comics, we lose contact for a long time because we're busy.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Get busy.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

You're touring, you're working.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

But. Yeah, that must be so wild to, like, be very good friends with somebody and then you don't know what you did.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah. You didn't do anything. Yeah, they've like. It's like they change their number. It's very. Someone I Used to Know by Gotcha. It's that feeling of like, you didn't have to do all that. Like, why'd you do all that? Like, it's weird. But really, this one person, I idolized her for years. I still do. There's nothing that's gonna go away. I still love her, but it's like, wow, it's so weird. And maybe because she's super famous. That's oddly part of it. But also I don't buy it.

[Nicole Byer]

It's weird. It's also weird. Cause you don't know if you should bring it up. Cause it's like. Well, I guess friendships fizzle out sometimes. But it's also weird for it to, like, stop. And it's like, do I really want to, like, call this person into my office and be like, hey, I need to be a better friend if they already kind of don't want to be a better friend?

[Margaret Cho]

There's nothing. I mean, it's so embarrassing, too, to kind of confront it as a friendship thing. I kind of. I sort of struggle with it, but now I'm like. I just let it go. It's just weird. But I know that now I'm good friends with all the girls she did it to.

[Nicole Byer]

That's right. The rejects.

[Margaret Cho]

The rejects.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Like those Facebook groups where it's like, I date this man. Has anybody else.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. And then like, a bunch of girls are like, I did trauma bonding together. Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

It's like a T app.

[Nicole Byer]

What's the T?

[Margaret Cho]

The T app is like that Facebook group come to an app and it just got hacked. So it's actually terrible because a bunch of men, like, found that they were on there. But it's an app where you can rate all the men that you dated and you upload pictures of them and then you give them, like, not exactly, like, a star rating, but you kind of put up the red flag. Like, this guy has STDs, this guy's married. This guy's a cheater. This guy love bomb. Like, all this stuff, which is really good. And then you can actually also, through the app, look up their past convictions and.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, great.

[Margaret Cho]

It's really good. But it just got hacked by a bunch of incels who then took all the women's information and made, like, a clickable map where you could harass them at home. Like, it's a very. It's dangerous. Like, we can't have anything. Women can't have anything.

[Sasheer Zamata]

No.

[Nicole Byer]

That's.

[Sasheer Zamata]

My God, that sucks.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, I mean.

[Nicole Byer]

I mean, yeah, I'm sure they were like. The incels were like, oh, they can't be talking about men like this. Whereas, like, it's really just for safety.

[Margaret Cho]

Actually, like, it's totally for safety.

[Nicole Byer]

Women to, like, cross reference.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yes.

[Nicole Byer]

Valuable information.

[Sasheer Zamata]

And then it's like. Then you were like, that's not right. You're putting men's information out there. So I'm going to put your information out there to harass you. Yeah, like, that's so. Boy, oh, boy, my mind is rocked.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. We didn't have anything. That sucks.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I hate it.

[Margaret Cho]

But it was helpful when it was going. Cause there was a couple of people, like, a couple of guys that I saw on there who had been in my DMs. And I'm like, oh, I had no idea that she would never know. Because, you know, these guys are just like. They will operate with impunity, with terrible behavior, spreading their nasty STDs, spreading all of their, like, just bad vibes everywhere. Cause it's not like the STD thing I think is criminal. That could go into criminal, but other things, like just being a cheater, I don't think exactly is criminal, but it feels natural.

[Sasheer Zamata]

That's nice to know about.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, it's good to know.

[Sasheer Zamata]

And if, like three women can corroborate.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah. Yes, yes, yes.

[Nicole Byer]

I trust women.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I didn't know if it was gonna come out right.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah. Corroborate.

[Nicole Byer]

Yes. Have you ever gotten any info before the T app, but, like, in real life, any info on somebody you're dating or someone who was in your life but that you, like, ignored the red flags?

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, and I was really. I really regret it.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

Like, I really regret. I should have. I should have listened. But, you know, sometimes that dick get to your brain.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah, you get.

[Margaret Cho]

It's real all the way to your brain. And it's like. I think it just get to. Got to like, my brain stem.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

Really messes you up. Like, it. And I didn't see. And I should. Like, there was one, and it was a comic, and she was like, she cannot date that guy. She cannot. She can't. You know, to somebody else, just saying, like, no, you don't understand. She just can't. And she was so right. Yeah, I was so. I was. I. You gotta listen to women comedians.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah, she's gotta listen to women in.

[Nicole Byer]

General all the time.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I have ignored red flags with men so many times, but also with, like, friendships. I've like, been friends with people who at the beginning of the friendship, I'm like, huh, you're kind of mean to me. Yeah, you're kind of. You're kind of not nice. You kind of make me feel bad. But I'm going to persevere and you're going to be my friend. And then like, years later, I'm like, why am I doing this? Why am I just letting this person talk to me like that? And then you have to have a friendship breakup or you just, like, you know, fizzle out.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, that's an interesting one. Because it's like, why do we do that to ourselves? I think it's. I don't know. We think that something about the relationship should be painful in order to be worthwhile. Cause I know exactly what that is. Cause it's like, I like people who kind of bust my ball. Like, I think it's kind of fun when somebody's, like, making fun of you and it's funny, but when I come away feeling bad, it's weird. It's like, what is that about? Like, I am attracted to that. I am definitely attracted to that in romantic relationships as well. It's a little bit like, oh, I want that hard won affection. I don't like it when somebody loves me too much.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

It's suspicious. Why do you like me so much? I'm garbage. And it's like, well, maybe you stop talking about yourself like that.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, it's weird. It's like, I don't. I don't know what that is. But I. I also, you know, am just. I have been, like, seduced by people who are so nice, and then I think they're just super cool. So then I want to be. And then I. I did that with this one girl, you know, she was really fun and cool and interested, and she ended up suing me.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, my God. That's not nice at all.

[Margaret Cho]

No, it was so weird because it wasn't really anything that I could fight. It was just like. She ended up suing me. It was actually really inappropriate, but I had to pay because it was more trouble to fight it.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

Than actually, you know, like. And I did. It wasn't even a fight. It was just that I kind of ghosted her because I was like. So I didn't. I didn't. I had bad vibes. I didn't want to deal with it. I started it. And then I just kind of like. And she kept on trying to talk, kept on trying to. I was like, you know, I don't want to. And then in order to get my attention, she sued me.

[Nicole Byer]

So, like, that's the wrong kind of attention. It's not like you're gonna be like.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Oh, you know what?

[Nicole Byer]

I miss you. Oh, my God.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I'll see you in court after this is wrapped up.

[Margaret Cho]

It's so weird. But, you know, I didn't. I also thought a little bit in the back of my mind, this is going too well. She's too nice. She's too.

[Nicole Byer]

That was right. That was a good intuition that, you know, came a little too late.

[Sasheer Zamata]

That's a bad memory of friendship. Do you have, like, what's your favorite memory of friendship?

[Margaret Cho]

I think my favorite memory of friendship was, I think one time. So my friend and I were looking for this haunted house in Beechwood Canyon. And it was like, the middle of the night. And we're driving, and we were, like, trying to find where it was. We just wanted to drive by it, just to see. And we're trying to find it. We're trying to find it. And they're like. And we remembered, okay, there's a statue of the Virgin Mary right in front. And then we're, like, looking, and then he, like, turned over, and then he turned the car, like, the light on in the car. He opened the door a little bit, and the Virgin Mary statue was, like, right in the window. And we both. I heard a scream and I screamed, and we drove away really fast. And then I was yelling at him, like, why did you scream? Why did you. He's like, girl, I didn't scream. And it was so funny because it was like. It was like a ghostly scream from outside that we reacted to. So all the time. All this time, like. Like, I think you screamed. I think you were the one that screamed. So I just think it's such a funny thing of, like, ghost chasing with your friend in the middle of the night that it just always brings back a kind of a warm feeling. It's like, you know, it's just so silly.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Have you done that? Do you do spooky ookies?

[Nicole Byer]

I. I don't like actual haunted houses. I don't like being scared. But I have done a couple times this thing where it's like an immersive theater experience where it's like a house that you are being led by an actor who's in character. Like, all the patients in the psych ward escaped. We gotta find out who did it or whatever. And then you're like, okay. And they're, like, chasing them in the house and crawling under beds and stuff that I can do because I know this is controlled. I don't want things popping out at me. Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

I. I don't like a. A fun house. Scary. Like a haunted house. Not like a haunted. Like a paranormal house.

[Nicole Byer]

Mm. Mm.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

I mean, we went to Haunted Hayride, which is not. Children are there. It's not even that scary.

[Margaret Cho]

It's not scary. It's scary, though. Like, if somebody's jumping out, like, that's always. It's still scary.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't. And I don't like that. It's not good for my nervous system.

[Margaret Cho]

No, it's. It's definitely scary.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

But it is fun to watch you scream and run away from haunted houses.

[Nicole Byer]

From people I know are just actors.

[Sasheer Zamata]

It's so funny to me. In high school, we used to drive into the woods to find, like, the Jersey. Jersey Devil or something. I don't know. I wasn't, like, listening to the lore. I was just, like, happy to be included and drive into the woods. And it was always so scary. Cause you would, like, hear things and you'd be like, oh, my God, is that the Jersey Devil?

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Sasheer Zamata]

And then sometimes we would drink and do it.

[Nicole Byer]

Good times.

[Margaret Cho]

It's just so fun to, like. Like, get out there. And the woods are always really scary because it's just dark and weird and it's.

[Sasheer Zamata]

And who's out there?

[Margaret Cho]

Nobody knows.

[Nicole Byer]

It's fun, you know, like, when it comes to, like, real, like, paranormal stuff, I am welcoming of that. But if it's, like, a haunted situation or, like, you know what? Maybe it's humans I don't trust.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

But if it's, like, ghosts or aliens or something like that, I'm like, yeah, well, bring the energy in here.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, there's something that's just kind of beautiful about that, but also, like, I went to Zach Bagan's, like, haunted museum in Las Vegas, and I found that really stressful because it's, like, all of, like, the cursed objects. I think most of it is, like, really, it's all kind of made up because it's all just branding. Like, it's all branding for his, like, Ghost Adventures TV show and everything. But it's still scary when you see, like, the dolls in, like, a case. And there's, like, a weird, like, monitor to sort of talk here. You can hear the spirit box. They talk to you through the spirit box when you walk by.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Oh, Lord.

[Margaret Cho]

And they'll say stuff to you. And that's a little scary. It's scary.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

And it's like. And that's it, like, dark. It's very dark ins. And so one of my friends, she died last year. One of her jewelry boxes that she died next to now is the new exhibit there. So I gotta go and see. Because, you know, she died. And it's like. Well, it's. Now I have a friend that may be haunting the place. So I'm kind of curious about that. Like, I have quite a few really good friends who have died. And that's, like, a weird thing, too, because, like. Well, my best friend, when she died, it was so weird. Cause I still have kind of some trouble thinking about. It's the strangest thing when somebody that you're, like, really best friends with is now on the other side. It's very, like. And for a long time, I kind of felt her presence around. I really don't anymore. But every once in a while, there's something that will make me think, oh, she's right there.

[Nicole Byer]

That's nice, though.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, it's nice.

[Nicole Byer]

It is nice. Yeah. I like that.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I like that. When I die, I plan on working overtime to haunt.

[Margaret Cho]

You have to.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I want to haunt so much.

[Margaret Cho]

And so fun. It's so fun. Like, the idea of, like, going up to people that you know you love or even that you don't and just kind of messing with them. It's so cute.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Like, pushing over pictures of myself.

[Margaret Cho]

Oh, cute.

[Nicole Byer]

And I'm like, that's definitely her.

[Margaret Cho]

It's adorable. I think that's a. Yeah. There's something really beautiful and sweet about that.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. We have a friend who passed a couple years ago, and a lot of people in our friend group are like. They feel like they've seen signs, like the electricity being crazy or, you know, flowers blooming or dragonflies or whatever, you know. Do you feel like you've. After a friend has passed that you, like, would feel signs or see signs or, like, wish that these were signs?

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, yeah. You know, there's just like a hugely. Like a real warmth. I was good friends with Jill Sobule, who died in May. And so we did a benef concert for her. It's called Jilith Fair. They do a bunch of them over the summer. But the first one that we did, we all were on the stage and the whole audience were singing one of her big hits, Underdog Victorious. And I hadn't cried since her death. Cause I was just in shock. And. Well, everybody started singing. It was. The whole room was singing it. I really felt her presence, and I really was crying because I was thinking she would been, like, so excited to see a whole room of people singing this song, you know? And so that was when I really. I felt her presence more than ever. Just with the exuberance and excitement of people just all, like, belting out this song of hers and how excited she would have been and how excited I was for her to have that moment. It was really, really nice.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah, it's beautiful. I also think there's something to, like, a group of people gathered, like, using their energy towards another person. They can feel it.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah. Like, they're all fans or friends, and it's just really. It's really beautiful. So it's just really gave me a lot of peace, you know, saying goodbye to her, because it was just actually very her circumstances were really. Actually really terrible. So this was a really. A peaceful thing.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I want that. I want so many things when I die. I want to haunt. I want people to gather and say things I say.

[Nicole Byer]

She also has a long list of things for me to do when she passes, like, in her will, like, instructions. Oh, good.

[Margaret Cho]

You. You put them all together. You wrote it all out.

[Sasheer Zamata]

And it legally cannot be enforced because you can't force anybody to do anything in your will.

[Margaret Cho]

Oh, really?

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

Oh, well.

[Sasheer Zamata]

But I'll just say, please do it.

[Nicole Byer]

I'd really like it if you did this.

[Margaret Cho]

Mine have financial incentives.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh.

[Margaret Cho]

So I wrote in, like, if you do this, you'll get this amount of money legally.

[Sasheer Zamata]

You can't enforce that.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, okay.

[Margaret Cho]

I thought that the money would be kind of like, oh, they'll do it.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I think they'll do it because they're friends with you.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, they'll probably do it because they're friends with me, but I think the money is like a little added bonus. Like, oh, how fun.

[Sasheer Zamata]

See, that's smart.

[Nicole Byer]

There are no financial incentives in money.

[Sasheer Zamata]

It's just like, hey, please do this, please do that.

[Margaret Cho]

They'd have to do it.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah, right.

[Sasheer Zamata]

That's how I feel.

[Margaret Cho]

You know, it's just nice.

[Sasheer Zamata]

You know what's scary? There's a comedian who bought the Annabelle doll.

[Margaret Cho]

I saw that. Why did he do that?

[Sasheer Zamata]

I don't know. It's so wild to me.

[Margaret Cho]

Not like, goth. There's a.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Like, you know when they say young.

[Margaret Cho]

Like, there would be, like, a go. Is there any go. Who's a goth comic? Like Noel Fielding.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

Is that a goth comic? Like, who's a goth comic?

[Sasheer Zamata]

I think that's a gothy comic.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, but you would think that, because I don't think that the guy that bought it.

[Sasheer Zamata]

No.

[Margaret Cho]

This is particularly goth, like, their brand.

[Sasheer Zamata]

It's not their brand at all.

[Margaret Cho]

And neither is Elf. So I don't know what he's doing. It's weird, but he's fine.

[Sasheer Zamata]

That commercial was really wild.

[Nicole Byer]

I watched it.

[Margaret Cho]

I was like, huh, Very interesting. I don't know why, but, you know, whatever. But, yeah, I think it's scary because that doll.

[Sasheer Zamata]

That doll killed its handler.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah. Don't buy that doll.

[Sasheer Zamata]

No. Let Annabelle live somewhere in the woods. Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

Put her in the woods. I don't. Put her wherever she wants to be. Don't put her on tour. She doesn't want to go on tour.

[Sasheer Zamata]

She really doesn't. She.

[Margaret Cho]

She was, like, setting fire to buildings. She's like. She doesn't want to go on tour. Just do what she wants.

[Sasheer Zamata]

She wants to just live behind plexiglass.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah. Away from anybody handling her. Like let her have what she wants. Like it's very. It's a little bit messed up. I don't know why she's gotta go everywhere.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I don't know. I don't need to see her and.

[Nicole Byer]

I would like to not. Do people coming to these shows know that this is gonna happen?

[Sasheer Zamata]

I don't know. I don't know if he's bringing her with him on shows.

[Nicole Byer]

Okay.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I think he bought the. He bought the doll and then bought the museum of the two paranormal investigators.

[Margaret Cho]

Oh, Ed and Lorraine Morris. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So he just has. He's going to be. Well, maybe that is good then. Maybe he's just containing the doll in one place.

[Nicole Byer]

Maybe he's actually saving us.

[Margaret Cho]

Maybe. So maybe that's. Maybe that's positive. You know? So could be a good thing.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Who knows? I don't think. I just don't think it's gonna be a good thing.

[Margaret Cho]

I'm scared.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I'm also scared. Oh, boy.

[Nicole Byer]

Let's go to a break.

[Sasheer Zamata]

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[Nicole Byer]

That was spooky.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Margaret, what's the best piece of, like, advice that you've received about friendship?

[Margaret Cho]

I don't know. I think it's just really, that they're really the best part of life. I mean, that we really should enjoy that. Enjoy the connection that you have with people. And if you feel something, really try to build on it, you know, and invest in that, to invest in your friendships, because that's what's worthwhile. So I think that that's probably it, but it's not as concrete. You don't get as much advice about friendship as you do about, like, romance.

[Nicole Byer]

It's true.

[Margaret Cho]

Somehow. Romance is, like, the primary relationship that we're always focused on. Always, though it always is terrible. I've never had a good one. Not once.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I've had one good one. And I do think it's interesting that we uphold romantic relationships more than friendships because, like, friendships are the. I feel like they're the. The foundation of life. Like, that's your community. That's where you fellowship. That's where, like, the people support you. And I think you're right. Nobody really gives you advice on how to keep those. Those connections alive. That's wild.

[Nicole Byer]

Kind of what we were talking about earlier with, like. Like, you know, talking to a friend who maybe, like, ghosted you or needs to be talked to. I think there's less of an incentive to have hard conversations with friends because that's expected for, like, a romantic relationship. Like, you know, you're supposed to go to therapy together, like, learn how to communicate, build upon your relationship. But, like, for some reason, those people don't think those tools are necessary for a friendship when it is. This is also a relationship. This is also, like, something that you would want to grow and foster and supposed to, like, grow within it. But for some reason, there's, like, less of a thought to do that. And it's easier to be like, I just wanna talk to them. They did this thing. I don't. Like, I won't talk to them. Or, like, I guess it's done, as opposed to, let me say how I feel.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

And we can actually maybe work on this, you know?

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's. I think the only time that you maybe bring in, like, a therapist is, like, if you're in a band or. I've heard podcasts, hosts.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Go to therapy.

[Nicole Byer]

I do know people who have had therapy sessions with their friends. Not necessarily, like, a whole. Like, they go to therapy continuously to each other, but they've, like, dropped in and had a couple sessions together. And it's been worthwhile because, like, sometimes you do need a mediator to be like, okay, here's what I'm actually hearing from both of you, as opposed to you two just, like, hitting the same wall over and over again.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, yeah, there's something to that. That is helpful. The only time I had, I had couples therapy one time with my ex husband, which was very advantageous because he and I. My husband and I hated the therapist. And so we were like, like, making fun of him. And that brought us closer because we were laughing about it so much that it was really. It actually made it work. So I don't know if that was the intention.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Whatever you need, that's what you take.

[Nicole Byer]

I do think that helps strengthen relationships. Like, if you guys dislike the same thing or same person for some reason, that makes you like, okay, now we're the smart ones.

[Margaret Cho]

We're, like, connected. But it's like, again, it's like laughter. Laughter will bring you together. Which is why I'm always friends with comics or people who are funny in general, because it's just. That's the thing. It's the thing that kind of brings you back.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Definitely that and truly a mutual hate of something. Yeah, I love hating on things with a friend. Oh, it brings me such joy. We have a friend, Mateo, who is like, oh, just a quintessential hater. He hates in a way that is so creative. Sometimes I'll say something, I'm like, Mateo?

[Margaret Cho]

Is he the comedian? Yeah, Mateo Lane.

[Nicole Byer]

Mateo Lane.

[Margaret Cho]

He's hilarious. He's hilarious.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Oh, and I love it when he doesn't like something.

[Margaret Cho]

It's like, there's just a poetry when a gay comic doesn't like something.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah, absolutely. It's also just like, even if I'm not friends with a comic or, like, good friends, like, even if, you know, we somehow riff on something we don't like together, it still feels good. Like, I went to the. We went to the opera together years ago, and I got locked out because I went to the bathroom, and there was no intermission. So I had to go to this little, like, room on the side where you can watch the performance on screen. And then Nick Turner was also in there, and we just, like. It was just the two of us, and we were just, like, shitting on the show the whole time, like, for an hour together. And it was so fun. Was I there? You were there. So I left, and I was locked.

[Sasheer Zamata]

In, and I was like, when will she come back?

[Nicole Byer]

I was sitting on the other side.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Like, hello, but they were at Lincoln Center.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Why did we go to the opera?

[Nicole Byer]

I think we had a friend who was, like, connected to the show or something. I don't think she was in the show, but she was giving tickets away. And I think she also gave tickets to Nick at the same time. But we were like, in different sections. And then.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I'm glad we went.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah, I do too. We should go again to the opera.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I don't know.

[Nicole Byer]

Well, we should go to one that has an intermission that will.

[Margaret Cho]

Yes.

[Nicole Byer]

Leave and come back in. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, it is nice to, like, find a comic and be like, okay, well, I know you have thoughts about this.

[Margaret Cho]

Is there always going to be able to share something? It's always going to be an adverse opinion. It's always going to be negative. And I love that.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah, a little negative, a little dark. And you're like, I love it.

[Nicole Byer]

Yum, yum, yum.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I love that.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. When you tour, do you take comics with you to open for you? Like, do you take friends with you?

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, I just take one person. I take Daniel Webb, who's hilarious.

[Sasheer Zamata]

So funny.

[Margaret Cho]

He's so funny and so much fun. And, you know, we've been doing it for five years, which is great.

[Nicole Byer]

Amazing. Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

Really. It makes it so much better when you have somebody there who's hilarious, who's so much fun, and that you are friends with, that you can just hang out with. And then it's so easy. Cause traveling is stressful and you don't know. You don't have any control over anything. So it's great to just have that person there. It's hard. I have a hard time just going on my own. And also, whenever I go to places, like, I don't want somebody random in the town just opening for me too. Cause I don't know what they're gonna do.

[Nicole Byer]

I trust this person's sense of humor. They're gonna do well.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. It makes it very comfortable.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, it makes it easy for me. So that, to me, feels really good.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah, I like that because I've had random people open for me, and then I look at them on stage and I'm like, oh, no, I don't think you can do that joke. Oh, no, that's offensive.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, it's so bad. It's like, so you just can't trust it, you know?

[Nicole Byer]

Do you and Daniel explore the towns that you go to?

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, sometimes. I mean, I'm lazy. I'm so. I love to lay down in the hotel. I've seen everything So I don't care. But every once in a while there'll be something. Like if it's a funeral museum, I'll get up and I'll go, like. Because I love a death anything. I love a goth anything. So, you know, every once in a while I'll get. I'll be like able to get up and go. But it's very, it's. It's very rarely.

[Nicole Byer]

That's fun.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Sometimes I'll explore the town. A lot of times I'm like, you let me just lay down in the hotel and have a nice time in the hotel.

[Margaret Cho]

I love to lay in that bed or whatever. Like, I just, I'm such a lay down lady.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah, I think it depends. Like, I was just in Montreal for work and I was doing so much stuff. I would never. I'm usually not that active. I like went to Search Soleil. Wow. I went to the movies by myself. What did you say? Fantastic four.

[Margaret Cho]

Nice.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah, fantastic.

[Nicole Byer]

It was fantastic for me. Yes, exactly. Kind of massage. Yeah, like some. It depends. But also I do love a hotel and being inside.

[Margaret Cho]

That's ambitious though. That's good. You did a lot of stuff.

[Nicole Byer]

I did do a lot of stuff, yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

That's cool. I mean, I think like, if I go to a festival like that, like if it was for just for laughs or whatever, I like it because I'm getting to see other comics that I don't see all the time.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah, that is nice.

[Margaret Cho]

So then it's nice to hang out with comics that you never see because we're always working. So festival is good for that. You know, just to hang out with different people. But yeah, normally I wouldn't. Like, normally I just like lay there.

[Nicole Byer]

And that's totally fine too.

[Sasheer Zamata]

But also it's a lot. Like if you're doing like a club, then that's like two shows. And if you're doing a theater, that's one show but with more people.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

So it feels like you're doing two shows.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, it's big. It's a bit. It's a big, like energy. It's a lot of energy to put on. I don't know because I also went to Provincetown and I was doing a theater with. That was kind of big. But then I have so many friends there. You know, Provincetown is just where all the drag shows are in the summer. So it's all of my different, like, friends from the drag world that I never get. They work hard, harder than anybody. They really do, because they're doing the shows and they're carrying their costumes and makeup and wigs from city to city and they're doing the drag, which is another like three hours a day. They're like so, so, so busy.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. Very skilled. Yeah. When you're looking for. Well, not necessarily looking for a new friend, but like, if a new person comes into your ether and you're like, ooh, this could be a new friend, like, what qualities are you spotting in them that feel very attractive?

[Margaret Cho]

I think just laughter is always it. Laughter.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

Laughter is kind of like the key to sort of unlock anything. If somebody's like making me laugh, then I'm just like, oh, I'm hooked up. Like, I want more of that. I want to feel what that is. I want to see more of that. I want to do more of that. So that is usually the thing that draws me in more than anything else. You know, if I'm laughing, then I'm following.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. I'm guessing you have non comedian friends too.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Do you ever. I'm guessing, I'm guessing. I mean, some people don't, but do you find it easy to mix the non comedian friends with comedians or do you have a separate.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, it can definitely be done. I mean, I mean, it's not in general though. I like to sort of be with like the friend, my friend. I'm like more like a one on one kind of person instead of having. I don't really have like parties anymore. I don't really have like dinner parties, anything like that anymore as a rule.

[Nicole Byer]

Or just like, I don't just happen.

[Margaret Cho]

Where I don't extend myself in that way anymore. So it's more just like I like to go out to dinner with somebody or I like to hang out with one person. I don't really have, like sort of entertaining groups of people.

[Nicole Byer]

Mm, yeah, I get that. I get exhausting.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Get out of my house.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I don't let people inside my house.

[Margaret Cho]

Well, I have so many cats, I.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Have to stay outside.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, it's too many. I have so many cats. I don't. They don't like anybody to come over.

[Sasheer Zamata]

How many cats do you have?

[Margaret Cho]

I have three cats, so they're my friends too. So I can't like infringe on their lives as much.

[Sasheer Zamata]

That makes sense. I went to a pet psychic and the pet psychic told me that my dog does not like when people are in the house.

[Margaret Cho]

Oh, really? Interesting.

[Sasheer Zamata]

He would prefer that I entertain them outside.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I was like, well, okay.

[Nicole Byer]

Wow.

[Sasheer Zamata]

And the pet psychic said that he wanted to taste eggs and every time I get eggs, I give him eggs, and he's so excited.

[Margaret Cho]

That's so cute.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah. I don't know. She was like, I don't know why he wants eggs, but he wants eggs.

[Margaret Cho]

That's good.

[Sasheer Zamata]

And then truly, every time I give him a little scrambled egg, he, like, does a little circle, and it's like he smiles.

[Margaret Cho]

Beautiful. That's beautiful. I believe the pet. Psych. I do.

[Nicole Byer]

I do, too.

[Margaret Cho]

I believe them.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah, I believe them, too. That's why he gets eggs now.

[Margaret Cho]

It's so cute. But we have to, like, give them their, like, space, so. Yeah, for sure.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. I feel like there was, like, a cat whisperer who had a show. I don't remember his name, but is it.

[Margaret Cho]

Oh, Jackson Galaxy?

[Nicole Byer]

That sounds great.

[Margaret Cho]

He's like, a good name. Jackson Galaxy or Caesar Cat daddy or Caesar Whisper. Jackson Galaxy is the cat. He's like, the cat daddy.

[Nicole Byer]

Ooh.

[Margaret Cho]

Maybe. And he does a lot of, like, cat behavioral issues. You know, he's really. He's actually really good.

[Nicole Byer]

Well, maybe this is the same person, but whoever it was was, like, explaining to these owners, like, it's less the Caesar way of, like, you know, let's train your dog so that you're the alpha. It's more like, how can we make your space in a way that your cats like it? Like, your cats are gonna be cats. Cats. They're gonna like what they like. How do we adjust your whole life to fit what they need, which you have to do?

[Margaret Cho]

I mean, I have a full patio because they can't go outside because if there's coyotes in my neighborhood, so I have huge, like, outdoor space for them where they can go, and they're totally safe.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

You know, and all of my house also, there's, like, stuff built into the wall so they can climb up and. Oh, I love that they have every few feet, there's scratchers, and there's cat trees, and, you know, my house is more for them than me.

[Nicole Byer]

That sounds right.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I like that. Is your house more for your cat or for you?

[Nicole Byer]

Well, I just got a cat.

[Margaret Cho]

Oh, congratulations.

[Nicole Byer]

Thank you very much. So I'm trying to figure that out, actually. This is my first cat I've ever had in my life, and we do have scratchers and, like, toys and things. But I do want to figure out a catio situation because he keeps longingly looking out at the window, and I'm like, clearly, you want to go out there, but I don't want to just, like, let you lose. I can't.

[Margaret Cho]

No. The catio is a great thing to have, even if you have just like, a balcony or something and you can just net in something. Also, there's like, these zippery things that you can get that have like, tunnels that you can just, like, let them go in and put that. Put it outside while you're outside. So it has the. They can have the open air, but they're not actually outside.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

What is a catio?

[Margaret Cho]

It's a little, like, outdoor enclosure. So the cats can't actually go out into the wilderness, but they can be safe inside of an enclosure. So. Safe from predatory animals, like coyotes and stuff like that.

[Sasheer Zamata]

So it's like a.

[Margaret Cho]

Like an outdoor enclosure. Like a deck that's netted in.

[Nicole Byer]

Okay. Like a patio.

[Margaret Cho]

Like a patio, but a patio. So you can just net it in.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I can't say that, because a lot of patios are not enclosed.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah, you're right. I can't say that.

[Sasheer Zamata]

You simply cannot describe it and explain it that way, because I've seen so.

[Nicole Byer]

Many patios that are just open.

[Sasheer Zamata]

That are just open to the world.

[Margaret Cho]

So true. So true. But you just enclose it. Even if you put a little tunnel, like a netted tunnel, they get so excited. They love to just be outside.

[Nicole Byer]

Hmm. Have you ever had, like. Like, kind of a issue with a friend or a. Or a partner. Romantic partner with your pets? Like, did you ever meet someone where you're like, oh, this is going so well, and then they, like, come over and, like, either they have an issue with your cats or your cats have an issue with that person.

[Margaret Cho]

Oh, well, this was, like, 25 years ago, and one guy actually was, like, so mean to one of my dogs that I. I kicked him out. Like, it was like, I didn't even know that he had it in him.

[Nicole Byer]

Whoa.

[Margaret Cho]

But he was like, me. And I'm like, goodbye. Like, there's no. I'm sorry.

[Sasheer Zamata]

That's wild. To be mean to an animal, to.

[Margaret Cho]

Be mean to a dog. Like. And he was like, well, she chewed up your shoes, and those were, like, 300. And I'm like, I don't care.

[Nicole Byer]

And that's your shoe. Like, that's. You get to choose how you handle that.

[Margaret Cho]

But it was, like, shocking. It's like, no, get out. Like, it was like, no, you're not gonna be even. Don't even be rude. Don't even be short.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

Don't even be. I mean, these are extensions of me.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

So I couldn't. Yeah. But that's the only thing I don't Think that there's ever been an issue other than that, because my pets are like my children. I mean, even. You know, I don't even know more than that. So I couldn't. I don't know if I could even entertain a thought of anybody even being rude or not liking them, not loving them.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, some people just don't like animals or don't want to be around them, which is crazy to me.

[Margaret Cho]

That's so weird, though. To me, the animals are the best part of life. So you would want. I mean, cats, if they don't like you, they'll just stay away. But my cats are always in everybody's business. They're always playing at everybody. Everybody's face.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

They just want something from everybody. So I don't know. And then she. This dog, like, really loves people, too. So I don't know. It's very odd when people don't like animals, but. Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah. I feel like there's something wrong with people who don't like animals.

[Margaret Cho]

Creepy. I mean, I guess I'd get it if they're allergic, but.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yes. Yeah, I'm slightly allergic, but it doesn't. I don't mind. My mom was scared of dogs, yet would walk my. Her, like, best friend's dog, and she would just scream as she walked the dog, which, in hindsight, I was like, like, that's crazy. Just don't walk the dog. But she, like, really wanted to not be scared of this.

[Nicole Byer]

It was a tiny poodle.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

And my mother was a bigger woman, just screaming, walking this little white poodle. And it was always very funny to me.

[Nicole Byer]

But.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Do you think she ever got, like, bit or something when she was younger or, like, it's like a. Or saw something happen?

[Sasheer Zamata]

Maybe. Maybe she was bit as a child.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. But it's great that she wanted to get over it.

[Sasheer Zamata]

She tried so hard. She never did. Always screaming with this little dog.

[Nicole Byer]

That's very funny. My partner has a German shepherd and that. I was, like, overwhelmed because she likes to be in everybody's business, too, and very energetic. And I was like, ha.

[Margaret Cho]

Okay.

[Nicole Byer]

Good girl. But now we're besties. And she's very sweet.

[Margaret Cho]

Does she get along with a cat?

[Nicole Byer]

She does. Yeah. She has lived with other cats before, too. So, yeah, we. I guess we were like, we hope she doesn't get too excited around the cat. But the cat, like, very quickly was like, oh, this is my house.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, that's the. The thing is, cats really establish dominance for the most part, which is really good.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. So really now we have to get the cat to be, like, more chill around the dog. And that's funny.

[Margaret Cho]

That's so cute.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I think it's funny that cats domesticated themselves. They were like, those humans have food.

[Nicole Byer]

It's smart.

[Sasheer Zamata]

All right, I'll be nice.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah, yeah. I'll just, like, lay here, and then you'll feed me and clean up my poop and pet me.

[Sasheer Zamata]

They're the boss. I love it.

[Margaret Cho]

They're the best. But yet a catio is a really great thing for them because, you know, also, even, like, just a tree by the window, you know, like a cat tree. Right. You know, like, so that they feel like they're outside. It's enough.

[Nicole Byer]

That's a great idea.

[Margaret Cho]

Get a bird feeder out there. You know, it's.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, my gosh. You go crazy.

[Margaret Cho]

No, they. I love it so much.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

I do need to add some architecture to make this cat happen.

[Margaret Cho]

It's fun. I love that part of having a cat to just incorporate their needs into your life. It's really special.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I would love to sit in a tree by a window. We should take a break. And we're back.

[Nicole Byer]

And we're back. When's the last time you sat in a tree?

[Sasheer Zamata]

When I was a kid.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Katie Zachowski. I think that was her name. She had a big tree in her backyard, and it was like a weeping willow, and we would climb it, and I remember once I climbed it, and then I fell out of it, and I fell on my back, and I got the wind knocked out of me. I think that was the last time I climbed a tree.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. That makes sense.

[Margaret Cho]

Pretty dangerous.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

Like, if you think about, like, any sort of head injury.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Margaret Cho]

It's pretty scary.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Huh.

[Sasheer Zamata]

But I was fine.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. Look at you now. Look at me now. I'm fine. When's the last time you were in tree?

[Margaret Cho]

Gosh, I don't think I. I don't think I've ever climbed a tree.

[Nicole Byer]

Really?

[Margaret Cho]

I don't think I ever have. I'm not a thrill seeker. I'm not a. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Not a daredevil.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

I might have made a mud pie.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Okay.

[Nicole Byer]

Which is. Is it with mud?

[Sasheer Zamata]

Mud.

[Margaret Cho]

With mud. And you put them in the sort of plates that made a mud pie. I definitely rolled down a hill, but I don't think I've ever climbed a tree. I think I would get in trouble.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Have you?

[Nicole Byer]

I have. Yeah. My neighbor. I guess there was a tree in between my yard and my neighbor's Yard and same thing. It was like a huge tree. And then some. One of the parents like made like a little swing situation off of a branch.

[Sasheer Zamata]

See, that's nice.

[Nicole Byer]

And it was like really long. I don't know what kind of tree it was but. But it was a long horizontal branches. So like sometimes there'd be many kids in the tree just like laying down. It was really nice.

[Margaret Cho]

That's really cute. Yeah, but it's also, it's. Yeah, to me it's like very like I would get in trouble if I would get. If I was up there, I would get. I would get in trouble.

[Nicole Byer]

Were your parents really strict?

[Margaret Cho]

Well, they. Yeah, they would just like very. I think they were overly like tired and overly like. So they would get mad if you did anything like, like, like screamed and ran and like so you couldn't, couldn't really do that kind of stuff. Like we had to be just like a very low key household.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Your parents would have hated me. I was the loudest child, I think on the bl. I was so loud. I was always screaming, I was always doing something.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, it's like we just couldn't really express ourselves in that manner. And so like climbing a tree would just be very. Yeah, no, you're gonna get in trouble.

[Nicole Byer]

Do you feel like you expressed any of that energy outside of the household? Like were you like secretly screaming with your friends?

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah, well, we were just secretly screaming with your friends.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah. Doing drugs, sort of. Like, I think that's probably the most secret scream of all of like going and like smoking. Like I was bad. I was bad kid for sure. Like smoking cigarettes at like eight.

[Nicole Byer]

Whoa. That eight. Where'd you even get cigarettes?

[Margaret Cho]

My dad. Stealing my dad's cigarettes. Like being on the corner, smoking, smoking cigarettes but then being super quiet in the house because you just had to sort of let it out somehow.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

So it definitely was a rebellious kid, but not in front of anybody. So is that rebellion? I don't know.

[Nicole Byer]

I guess. For yourself.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Personal rebellion? Yeah, yeah, we used to swing at.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Recess and scream and then we like go back to class and be like, oh my God. Oh. We were all saying fuck a minute ago.

[Nicole Byer]

The sound, you're not really sure where the sound's coming from. Is that it?

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah. Cuz it was like, is it me? Is it the person swinging over there could be anybody.

[Margaret Cho]

And the sound, it's like the effect of the sound. You don't know where the waves are coming.

[Nicole Byer]

That's funny.

[Margaret Cho]

That's funny. Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Good times.

[Nicole Byer]

I'm trying to think I don't even know if I was bad in secret.

[Sasheer Zamata]

No, I don't.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

I don't think I was bad at all.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I think followed rules.

[Nicole Byer]

I did.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I mean, even now, you follow the rules. You love a rule.

[Nicole Byer]

I love a rule. Yeah. I feel like. I feel like me and my mom was breaking rules, and she was like, you can. You don't have to be so dutiful. And I'm like, no, I am. I have to. I remember, like, I was tired from volleyball and all the clubs I do and etc. And I was, like, doing my homework on my bed, and I fell asleep on my homework, and my mom was like, why don't you just quit something? And I was like, how dare you quit? I'm not a quitter. I do everything to the best of my ability. Then I burnt out.

[Margaret Cho]

It's like a type A. Type A? Like, overachiever.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. 100%.

[Margaret Cho]

It's intense.

[Nicole Byer]

It's definitely chilled out more. But, yeah, there was, like, a few rounds of burnout where it's like, oh, I don't have to do this to myself. I could just live a life and still be really good at it.

[Margaret Cho]

That's good. I mean, I don't. I'm so lazy. I can't do anything. I, like, really don't. I do the very, very bare minimum everything, which is like, I just, like, barely alive. I just take just enough breaths every minute to just keep alive.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah, well, I feel like the older you get, the more you're like, wait a minute. I don't have to do all of this, nor can I do all of this.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah, definitely.

[Margaret Cho]

I mean, it would be better if I did. I think it would be better if I was more energetic and more, like, enthusiastic or ambitious about things, but I'm just not, which is not good.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah, but you say you're lazy, but you still. You have a ton of comedy specials and you're touring and, like, you are ambitious. You do a lot of stuff.

[Margaret Cho]

That's true. I guess. It doesn't feel like it. Cause it was like, comedy is such a. To me, it's pretty effortless, which is weird to say, but, like, I think people have an assumption about comics like, that it's hard. What's hard is, like, traveling.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. For sure.

[Margaret Cho]

And, like, going and doing shows and doing. That's hard. But. But really just to come up with things and just to be a comedian is actually not that hard, I think.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. I mean, I'm sure. Also, it just feels secondhand after Years. So long.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah. Over time, if you're just going and doing sets and coming up with material and doing shows, there's something about. But there's something very, very simple about that that's kind of easy. But the rest of it is hard. Like, the actually going on tour or coming up with, like, ideas for what the tour is going to be called and, you know, trying to figure out where to go and what to do that. That can take a lot. But the rest of it is, like, pretty easy.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah. I think once you get in the rhythm of writing jokes, it becomes, you know, second nature. The man at Starbucks, the Starbucks I go to, he was like, hey, how do I become a comic? I hear you're a comic. And I was like, well, you got to open mics. And he was like, really? That's it? I was like, yeah, but, like, you'll see. You'll see that it's not just that.

[Margaret Cho]

You go to open mics. Like, you write a bunch of jokes, you try out the jokes, Whatever works, works. And then you keep doing those. And then the things that don't work, you cross those out, but put in new jokes, and then you keep doing that for the rest of your life.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah, yeah. It is funny that it's like a art form that no one can, like, show you how to do it. You just have to do it and then figure out what works for you.

[Margaret Cho]

But see if you like it. Yeah, it's like that. That's the hard thing is, like, most people don't like it because they think, oh, I can be fun. I think anybody can be funny around their friends. Anybody can be funny for a little bit, but not anybody can be funny every day on demand, the same time every day, for two hours a day, for exactly the amount of time that you need it for, exactly the different audiences that you're going to be in front of. Like. Like, it's, like, such a challenge to actually do it, like, and monetize the career of it. It's not about being funny.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

It's so much more than that. It's like, being funny. Yeah, that's part of it, but it's not the most important part, which is weird.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah. Because I've met a lot of people who think they're very funny, and they'll say something and then they'll, like, laugh after it, and I, in my brain, have to go, oh, you thought that was funny? Yeah, I can. I can. Ha ha.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, ha ha. I'll help you out.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, I can see why you thought that was funny, but really what it is is just cheap or it's boring or it's been said, or somebody else said it.

[Sasheer Zamata]

You're just repeating it, or it was funny in your head and then you said it out loud, but you left out the funny part.

[Margaret Cho]

Do you know what I mean?

[Sasheer Zamata]

It's like you're recanting something or recounting something that happened, and you're telling it, but you're missing the part that was funny.

[Margaret Cho]

It's so sad when people think that. It's so sad. It really is sad. Like, it's like, okay. Like, it's just sad. And I always go, oh, yeah. Like, I always try to be supportive.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Same. And sometimes I get confused when people think they're funny and they're not funny. Cause I'm like, you can just not be funny.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah. It's not a requirement for people to be funny. It's just a. It is an attractive trait at times, but, you know, ultimately it's. For normal people. It doesn't really matter. Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Does your family think you're funny?

[Margaret Cho]

No. No, they don't think I'm funny. But they are kind of funny on their own. They are, but they're not. When they're trying to be funny, they are actually very unintentionally, really hilarious. But they don't. I think, for me, it's a little bit of a language gap. Like, they kind of don't fully understand, and then they don't want to understand, too stuff they don't really get, and they don't think that it's right. So I feel like they intentionally do not think I'm funny.

[Sasheer Zamata]

That's inherently funny. Does your family think you're funny?

[Nicole Byer]

I actually don't know. I think some of them think I'm funny, but when I first got into comedy, they were like. Like, when did you think you were funny? Like, we never heard a joke out of you ever. That's because I would, like, save them for my friends and be really shy around my family. So, yeah, I think at first they were like, I'm confused. But then when I started actually booking jobs, they're like, we always knew we'd always thought you were hilarious. Yeah. Does your family think you're funny?

[Sasheer Zamata]

I don't know. My grandpa, he does think I'm funny. Yeah, he. He thinks I'm very, very funny. He'll laugh at things I say. My uncle came and saw me do stand up years and years and years ago, and he went, oh. Huh. And then my cousin was like, the people seem to like you.

[Nicole Byer]

And I was like, well, that means you didn't.

[Sasheer Zamata]

And then my aunts and uncles up until, like, last year have asked me when I was gonna, like, go back to college.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, wow.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I was like, I think I'm doing okay.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, you're doing fully in a career. That's so. Yeah. It's so weird that they don't think this is a real job, especially because you're so famous and you're working all the time. Like, it's like, what does that. It's a weird assumption.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah. Well, I'm not in Tyler Perry things, so I think once I get in a Tyler Perry movie, then they'll be like, she's successful.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

And that's true. And that actually is true.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Sasheer, don't support my family on that. Just be my friend.

[Nicole Byer]

No, you are successful already. But also, Tyler Perry things are really successful.

[Margaret Cho]

They are very successful.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Sheer. You can't do that. You can't say, I won't be successful until I get into a Tyler Perry thing.

[Nicole Byer]

I didn't say that.

[Sasheer Zamata]

And then also not support my Cirque du Soleil dreams. I'll bring it up for the rest of my life. She doesn't think I can be in Cirque du Soleil.

[Margaret Cho]

Oh, you can.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Thank you.

[Margaret Cho]

What do you want to do?

[Sasheer Zamata]

Thank you.

[Margaret Cho]

What do you want to do?

[Sasheer Zamata]

I kind of just want to be like Ben Bendy and dive in the pool, because the one we saw there was people diving, and I really like that.

[Nicole Byer]

And you're really good.

[Margaret Cho]

Exciting. That would be fun. But could you. Could you do it? Like, we would hate to lose your comedic voice, so you would have to do it, like, both being funny but also doing the acrobats.

[Sasheer Zamata]

And I think I could do that because the show we saw was, like, I didn't understand anything, but it was very funny.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

And I really liked it.

[Nicole Byer]

It.

[Margaret Cho]

You don't want to walk on stilts, like, the clowns.

[Nicole Byer]

Clowns are funny.

[Sasheer Zamata]

She walks on stilts, so I'm not.

[Margaret Cho]

Going to take that from her.

[Nicole Byer]

I have walked on stilts. I walked on stilts at Disney World in Orlando. Yeah. In the parades.

[Margaret Cho]

Wow. Do you have scary.

[Nicole Byer]

I do have a pair of stilts in my closet right now.

[Margaret Cho]

That's so scary to me.

[Nicole Byer]

I guess they thankfully trained us, so, like, the more you did, the more you're like, oh, okay. It's, like, pretty much like, walking.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

And we had these, like, like, pretty thick still. So they weren't like, you know, the peg ones. So it was kind of hard to fall. And. Yeah. As long as you just like had your core engaged and just like looked forward as opposed to down, you could stay up.

[Margaret Cho]

That's incredible. Yeah, that's incredible.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Hear me out. In October.

[Nicole Byer]

On Halloween, we dress up. Okay.

[Sasheer Zamata]

As you as a tall something.

[Nicole Byer]

And I'll be your handler and just.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Walk around your neighborhood with you on stilts. Please, please, let's do it.

[Nicole Byer]

It would be a crowd pleaser.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Please, let's do it. The kids would love it.

[Nicole Byer]

Who's tall? Who could it be? Who's tall? The Babadook.

[Margaret Cho]

Is badook tall?

[Sasheer Zamata]

I don't know.

[Margaret Cho]

It could be. Why not? Why not? Who's tall? Babadook. Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Or I don't know.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah, who's tall?

[Nicole Byer]

The Thin Man.

[Margaret Cho]

Slenderman.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Slenderman.

[Margaret Cho]

Slenderman. Slenderman.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Slenderman.

[Margaret Cho]

Slenderman is tall.

[Nicole Byer]

He's tall.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Okay, I'll be Slenderman and then I'll.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Be one of the girls that he. He made kill their friend.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

I'll lead you around. I love that. Great.

[Margaret Cho]

That's a good. That's a good costume.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I'm not kidding.

[Nicole Byer]

Okay. All right.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I really want to do this.

[Nicole Byer]

Let's do it.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Margaret, thank you for being here to help this happen.

[Margaret Cho]

Well, I think what. She should be the Slenderman and then you should be one of the girls that st. And then you could carry around the dead body and then it would be like a. More of a complete costume.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. Clyde could be the dead body.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Oh my God. He would love it. He would love to go outside. He's not allowed to really go outside. Cuz he bit somebody and they sued me.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh no.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

But in his defense, he is a little guy and he doesn't like when people reach into his face and.

[Margaret Cho]

Oh yeah, sometimes they don't reach into his face. Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. Everybody's getting sued. I got. I. I gotta do something. I gotta get.

[Margaret Cho]

Okay.

[Sasheer Zamata]

So she know.

[Nicole Byer]

Why isn't anyone suing me?

[Sasheer Zamata]

Cuz you're not popular enough.

[Nicole Byer]

One of these days.

[Sasheer Zamata]

No, you don't wanna get sued.

[Margaret Cho]

It's so no fun.

[Nicole Byer]

It seems bad, actually.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah, I didn't like it. It was a lot of back and forth with State Farm.

[Margaret Cho]

Awful. Awful.

[Nicole Byer]

Well, is there anything you wanna like, promote or like? What. What do you want the people to see?

[Margaret Cho]

I am on tour now until whenever. And so it's the show. It's called choligarchy. And it' like. I hate this administration.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Yeah.

[Margaret Cho]

I hate what's happening politically. I hate ice coming into our communities and kidnapping people off the street. I hate the white supremacy of the. The ridiculous way that this country is going. When you have people, like, saying slavery isn't really the fault of.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Sasheer Zamata]

That clip blew me away.

[Margaret Cho]

It's so crazy. Like, what? Like, you know, and then Trump is always. Well, he's like, well, slavery. There's making it to be such a bad thing.

[Nicole Byer]

It's a bad thing. It was a bad thing. And he's trying to, like, get museums to change the stuff that they're displaying.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Like the Smithsonian, I think had to, like, adhere to what his history is.

[Margaret Cho]

It's so scary, which is the erasure of black pain in our. The worst part of our history. He's trying to erase, like, and trying to make it seem like it's not that bad. And they're trying to absolve themselves of all of these atrocities. So, you know, whatever I can do. Like, as a comic, I feel like comedy got us into this, so maybe comedy can drag us out.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I think you're right. I think that. Yes.

[Margaret Cho]

So whatever we can do.

[Nicole Byer]

I like that.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I like that, too.

[Nicole Byer]

I'm so glad. Yeah. Yeah.

[Sasheer Zamata]

And what's your website?

[Margaret Cho]

My website is margaretcho.com easy, and you can go and get tickets there. And I'm going everywhere, so it's really. Yeah, for me, it's really important. So I just started the tour a couple of weeks ago in Provincetown, and now I'm just gonna go everywhere.

[Sasheer Zamata]

I love that. Thank you so much for being here.

[Margaret Cho]

Thank you.

[Nicole Byer]

Thank you for doing this. Oh, somebody woke up.

[Margaret Cho]

She's excited. She knows when things are concluding.

[Sasheer Zamata]

He gets so excited and he's like, so you get to play with me again.

[Nicole Byer]

You're gonna shut up.

[Margaret Cho]

So. So he knows, like, when you're done with, like, a Zoom call, whenever I.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Go, well, thank you so much. He'll jump into my lap.

[Margaret Cho]

So cute. Yeah, they know. Yeah, they absolutely know.

[Nicole Byer]

She's ready to go.

[Margaret Cho]

Yeah, she's ready.

[Sasheer Zamata]

She's a cutie.

[Nicole Byer]

Thank you.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Okay, goodbye.

[Nicole Byer]

Bye. Best Friends is a production of Headgum Studios.

[Sasheer Zamata]

Our producer is Ali Khan.

[Nicole Byer]

Our executive producer is Anya Koniskaya.

[Sasheer Zamata]

The show is edited, mixed, and engineered by the great Casey Donahue. That was a Headgum podcast.

[Margaret Cho]

Hi, I'm Ilana Hope Levinson. And I'm Dan o'.

[Nicole Byer]

Sullivan.

[Margaret Cho]

And this is the outfit, the new podcast From Higher Ground and Headgum. Now we're two journalists who are slightly obsessed with the mob and organized crime and other nefarious stuff like that. Every week, we're going to bring you a story about a mobster. Some you've heard of, some you definitely haven't. But all of them are going to help explain why America is like this.

[Sasheer Zamata]

See, the mob explains all sorts of.

[Margaret Cho]

Things, from milk expiration dates to why.

[Sasheer Zamata]

We got into Cuba to Las Vegas gay bars. Who knew? Who knew the mob's involved?

[Margaret Cho]

All that and more. Subscribe to the Outfit wherever you get your podcasts and watch video episodes on YouTube. New episodes every Thursday.