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Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Alexander the Great's Mummy Issues: Olympias
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A
Hello there, it's your host, Kate Lister. Now listen here. I have some very exciting news for you betwixters. After selling out our live recording of BetWixt on Thursday 4th September, we sold it out again. And then we sold it out again and now we've had to be moved to the biggest theatre that they have. And that means we have a few more tickets on sale. So I can tell you a little bit more about the show now. We have a very special guest and a very good friend of the show who you will be most likely to find talking about medieval things. Yes, it's the epic Dr. Eleanor Jarnega. And what are we going to talk about? Well, we are going to be playing a historical game of Shaggoth, Marieth and Killeth Kings edition where we will be deep diving into the sex lives, the dressing rooms, the bathrooms and the marriages of three kings. With some audience participation, of course, a lot of history and of course a lot of laughs. We hope that we will see you there. Book your tickets by following the link in the show notes or go to kingsplace.co.uk or just search for the London Podcast Festival and you'll find them. Snap up the last remaining tickets and I'll see you there. Right on with the show.
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B
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A
Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are listening to Betwixt the Sheets. But before I'm allowing you to listen any further, I do have to tell you this is an adult podcast spoken by adults, other adults, about adulty things in an adulty way. Crying, rage, adults. And Brixton used to be an adult too. That's our small print. That's our auditory small print. Because if you do keep listening after that and you happen to get upset, well, tough tits, that one's on you. Because, fair dudes, we did warn you. Right, on with the show. In the north of the Aegean Sea, the azure blue waters give way to the island of Samothrace. Wooden boats laden with pilgrims bump against the pier. Inland, white robed initiates gather to join a mysterious cult. There is music, chanting, fire, and everyone's being ritually cleansed. Sounds like a Friday night. But seriously, across the masses of the swaying and dancing bodies, a man and a woman catch each other's eyes. As though struck by cosmic lightning, they're immediately taken with each other. It's fate, it's kismet. These two people are destined to be together and soon they will birth a legend. Alexander the Great, or that's how some Greek writers would have us believe that the meeting of Philip II and Olympias went. But lets be honest, it's probably bollocks. The cult that they were said to meet in was on Samothrace, but is a complete mystery. And as all good cults do, it swore everyone to secrecy. So we don't know what was going on. But what do we know about Alexander the Great's mother, Olympias? How did she rise to become one of the most powerful women, in fact the most powerful people in the Macedonian empire? Where did that weird story about cults come from? Well, I am ready to find out if you are. What are you?
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B
A funny man?
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A
Oh, money.
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B
Of course you're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.
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D
I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob.
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A
And pushing the wall.
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B
Era when we want now. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.
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A
Goodness, what a beautiful diamond. Goodness had nothing to do with it. DE hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, History of Sex Scandal in Society with me, Kate Lister. We often talk on this podcast about the fact that women are given very little space in history. Just the margins, really, despite having been there the whole damn time. And today's subject is no exception. We will be returning to the Macedonian empire made famous by Alexander the Great, to meet a woman who changed the course of history. Turns out, Alexander Alex was quite the mummy's boy. So let's get to know his mum, Olympias. I'm joined by the host of the Ancients, our sister podcast, Tristan Hughes. So get your sandals on and your togas off. On with the show. Well, hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Tristan Hughes. How are you doing?
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B
I'm very well, Kate. Thank you so much for having me back on your show.
- [06:03]
A
I had so much fun talking to you last time. Actually, I've been dying to have you back on. And this just seems like a fabulous opportunity to talk to you about another really interesting woman from the ancient world. Olympia.
- [06:15]
B
Yes, the mother of Alexander the Great. A truly formidable woman. I mean, lots of, shall we say, interesting stories around her that have endured down to the present day. But it's always fascinating to delve into a story, you know, whether it's before Alexander the Great rises to power or during his reign or my favorite part, actually, her rise to prominence following Alexander's death.
- [06:41]
A
For anyone listening is not sure who this is. This is the person that Angelina Jolie played in the film, Right? Are you a fan? Is that your brave heart where you just hate it?
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B
No, I don't want to be so strong on it. I love the detail. Like, I love certain parts of it. I know I had quite a mixed reception. You can't deny that the attention to historical details is really, really impressive.
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A
Yeah.
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B
The problem is, it's almost like we're never happy with these films. Sometimes if they lack the historical accuracy, we just like, oh, no, why haven't they done this? Or, this is absurd. But then the other part of that is when they go too much into the historical accuracy and too much detail, most people are just like, oh, no, this is really boring.
- [07:20]
A
Got boring now.
- [07:21]
B
So I think it went too much on that direction. But I thought the casting of Angelina Jolie as Olympias was fantastic. Some amazing stories that we can delve into that her character really includes. And Angelina Jolie, I mean, epitomizes that. A very formidable woman in the public eye. And I think Olympias was exactly the same.
- [07:41]
A
You can see why they made that choice, can't you? My interesting fact about that is Angelina Jolie was only like, three or four years older than Colin Farrell, who was playing Alexander the Great. It's just behave yourselves. So, yeah, that was his mum, apparently. But you can see what they're doing because she's got that sultry, sexy thing that Olympias has that reputation for. I wonder if that's fair.
- [08:07]
B
No, absolutely. And that strong nature and this idea that she had, you know, quite a lot of influence and power over Alexander. And also this idea that she was slightly different at the same time, you know, she wasn't your classic Macedonian woman or mother. The fact that she didn't actually come from Macedonia, but a nearby family, the link with snakes and so on, that I'm sure we'll explore.
- [08:32]
A
Well, let's start with that, then. So let's give Olympias a bit of an origin story. Where did she come from? Because she must have had a life before being Alexander's mum. Although if you're in Hollywood, that was a life of four years and then she became a mum.
- [08:45]
B
Well, I'm sure she did. Sadly, you never really hear too much about it. But we can piece together a few things. We know that she comes from a kingdom called Molosha. Now, I think I mentioned this in our last chat as well. If people type in Molosha today, you will either get this extraordinary ancient kingdom situated in what is today northwestern Greece and southern Albania and very much on the fringes of the ancient Greek world, or you will get this microstate that someone has decided to create in the central of the usa. I think it's just this man who decided, I'm going to create my own little state and I'm going to call it Molosha in the middle of America. So we're not talking about the latter, we're talking about the former. But she was a member of that royal family. And the kingdom of Molossia was Hellenized, I. E Had Greek culture, but once again it was viewed like the kingdom of Macedonia, where Alexander the Great is from, as being more on the periphery of the Greek world and so nearer the barbarians. And so there was a thought that maybe because they had direct relations with certain barbarian peoples, that they were closer, that they weren't as pure civilized.
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A
It's all the proof I need, quite frankly.
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B
But their royal family are called the Erkids, and they claim descent from Achilles, the great hero. Achilles from the Trojans.
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A
Go big or go home. Why not?
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B
Okay, exactly. So she has royal blood and she's linked to this royal family from this neighboring kingdom of Molossia.
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A
So she's royal, but she does have kind of associations of, like, slightly barbarian. Y Just slightly. Because she lives near the barbarians. Yes. Well, this is like how Londoners think of northerners because we're near Scotland.
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B
It's a classic trope that you get kind of thing. And also this idea that the dialect was probably a bit rougher as well than someone, say, living in Athens. Kind of a classic trope. You have to look at the source material we have surviving for Olympias and understand that there are clear biases there. There is clear hostility to Olympia in the fact that she is ultimately a loser in the great struggle for power following Alexander's death. And so there's quite a bit of anti Olympias propaganda that emerges. And there is just the classic ancient Greek. You just have to say hostility and fear of powerful women. And Olympias does seem to have been able to wield more power than I think many Greeks would have liked, quite frankly, in that society.
- [11:17]
A
I think she did. So how does this get positioned that she marries Philip of Macedonia, the big cheese, the big guy? Have we got anything in the records that suggests that might have been a career trajectory for her? Was it a surprise? Was it pretty standard?
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B
Absolutely was a career trajectory. This is one of the most important moments in Olympias's life because she becomes the mother of Alexander the Great. It's very early on in King Philip II's reign. And to give a bit of background on that, Macedonia, the date is 359 BC is in a lot of trouble. It's this big kingdom in the north of the Greek world, what is northern Greece today. And it has been hit by invasions on several sides by neighboring barbarians. People like the Illyrians, who lived in the Balkans area today. Serbia, Montenegro and so on. And northern Albania. It's been hit by the Thracians in modern day Bulgaria. It's very much a kingdom that is struggling. And then enter Philip II of Macedon, who over his career, over his reign of almost 30 years or so, he transforms Macedonia into the leading power in the Greek world. One of the ways he goes about doing this early on is by reforming the army and also by doing a number of marriage alliances. And polygamy is a big thing for Macedonian kings. So what you see with Philip is very quickly he starts marrying princesses, royal women of neighboring kingdoms. So he marries an Illyrian princess after he defeats the Illyrians in battle. And then he looks to Melosha, this kingdom that borders Macedonia in his southwest, and he decides, I want to align myself. I want to kind of strengthen that border as well. And so he arranges a Marriage alliance with Olympias, who was the niece of the king of Milosia at that time. And so Olympias goes to the court of Philip, basically, you know, as this diplomatic pawn. She's being used to secure a marriage alliance between Philip's kingdom of Macedonia to stabilize his kingdom and Aribas, Molossian kingdom. Aribas, Olympias's uncle, the king.
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A
It's not giving Disney Romance Princess, is it this?
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B
I'm afraid not. I mean, to try and soften it, there is another story that Philip and Olympias, they met each other whilst being initiated into a mystery cult on an island.
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A
Much better.
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B
Exactly. And they fell in love. They met each other there and they fell in love. Philip, it was love at first sight. And they marries and then, hey presto, within a year as Alexander the Great. However, when you consider the nature of Philip's marriages, how they're almost all, if not all diplomatic marriages to secure, to strengthen Macedonia, I think sadly, the former is more likely. And Olympias at that time, she's a teenager. She's probably born in the like 370, 371, 372 BC. She marries Philip in about 357 BC, so she would certainly be in her teens.
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A
How many other wives does he have?
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B
There are seven overall. So, yeah, one more than Henry VIII is how I remember it. And only one of them is actually from a Macedonian family. The others, they're all married from neighboring realms to help secure strengthen Philip's kingdom of Macedonia.
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A
How does this work then? I'm always fascinated by this. Like, you go in, over, okay, it's a diplomatic marriage. This probably wasn't your idea. It sounds like it was her uncle's idea. Off she goes as a teenager. And now you have to live with seven other women. Seven other women wives. Like, I know that we'll never know it, but, like, what on earth was that dynamic? Like, was like, did he have one top favorite wife and then the rest were kind of like backup wives? Or was it like, like, what on earth is going on with this?
- [15:14]
B
You know, it's a fascinating question that sadly, we don't know too much about it. I mean, given the fact that she is the mother of Alexander the Great. And I'm going to call Alexander the great Alexander 1 from now on because sadly, as we explored of our last chat, these guys aren't great with the diversification of their names, with a variety of their names. So there's a couple of Alexanders, there's a couple of Cleopatras, So I'll just call them Alexander One for the meantime. Okay, so Olympias gets the limelight of talk about her because of that fact. However, you know, one of the big problems with polygamy is that you get these factions developing at court where you have some people preferring one another, the family of another wife, and so on. And this idea that I think you can't call her the top wife, because all seems to point that as Philip's reign goes on, their relations between Philip and Olympias become more and more strained. And as you especially see near the end of Philip's life, that it looks like he is aligning himself with the last wife he marries, which is actually a Macedonian noblewoman. And Olympias may well have been threatened by that. She fears for the potential of her son Alexander, actually becoming Philip's successor, because that's another thing. It's not clear who the successor of Philip will be. And Macedonian succession is bloody. It's a horrific world that Olympias has been thrown into that if you are not the mother or if you are not the faction that becomes the heir, that becomes the successor of King Philip, you're most likely going to be knocked off straight away because you'll be seen as a threat by the people who do succeed Alexander. 1. Alexander the Great is only one of two male heirs that Philip has direct sons. So she's got less competition, dare I say there. There is also a cousin who could potentially succeed Philip. So that may well give her a bit more elevation in Philip's eyes and Macedonian eyes, because, you know, she is one of the only wives of Philip that does give him a son and early on during Philip's reign. But at the same time, I've also got to highlight the fact that she is a Milotian birth, she's not a Macedonian. And there is sometimes just this idea in the Macedonian aristocracy, the nobility, that they would prefer, you know, a pure blood Macedonian era as well. So that you have to consider all of these things when trying to understand a bit more of what life would have been like for Olympias during those years.
- [17:46]
A
I always look at these things and it's inevitable that, like, rivalry and factions arise because of the power involved and because the stakes are so high and because they do like to kill each other. It's like you just. If you're going into that kind of environment, you'd be like, right, guys, there's seven of us, there's one of him. That means that we all get at least six nights off per week. We'll get a rota going, we'll share resources and Then, like, none of us have to be bugged by this guy full time. We can just job share this wife nonsense. But that isn't what happens. It just gets nasty and pretty quick, doesn't it?
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B
Yeah, absolutely. And also considering the fact that Philip is away campaigning a lot of the time, but it aligns with the fact that Olympias and Alexander do certainly seem to have had a very close relationship. That's what we can gather. And obviously, as time goes on with Philip, when we get to his ultimate murder, there are certain rumors that both Alexander and Olympias were involved in his death. In his assassination. We can't prove that. I'm sure we'll talk about that as time goes on. But, yes, factional strife is there. It's an inherent part of Macedonian royal politics, of the polygamous world, of the. The succession crises that always hit all when one Macedonian ruler dies. And it, quite frankly, it emphasizes further that strong, formidable nature of Olympias. She knows that. She knows the cutthroat world that she's entering into. You should never pity Olympias, in my opinion.
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A
Oh, no. Oh, no.
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B
Although sometimes we want to see that, you know, that she's misunderstood with the pretty infamous legacy she's got. And there are absolutely parts of her story that are, you know, exaggerated. And she's done badly by the surviving sources, but never think of her as being a victim in any way or go too far in that regard. She was very happy to kill if it meant that Alexander became the next king. Family is very important to her. Only if it's the immediate family. Anyone who's not immediate family, she'll see as a threat to her son she's happy to get rid of.
- [19:49]
A
Could you be doing with seven wives, the idea of seven husbands, it's just. No, thank you. Send me to a nunnery.
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B
No, absolutely not.
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A
Exactly.
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B
It shows the political nature of marriage in Macedonian politics.
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A
It does, doesn't it?
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B
It was, yeah.
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A
Can I ask you, is there anything in the sources, and you just hinted at it there, that they had a happy marriage in the beginning. What was it like to be married to Philip of Macedon? Was he a kind and generous lover? Do we know anything about what kind of relationship they had?
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B
Well, he certainly wasn't loyal, I'll give you that.
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A
No.
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B
You know, he's having sex with everyone. Everyone I'm pretty sure he's seen as being pretty promiscuous. There are certain hints that Philip, I think you could say he did try to keep Olympias happy to a degree, or at least try to show that he respected the Molossians. Because you've also got to consider that Olympias is representing the Molossian royal family. And so there's a political viewpoint here that, you know, Philip can't just sideline Olympias once she's given him a. A boy. You know, this is also an active diplomatic arrangement. So one thought that I can think of is that one of Alexander's tutors does come from Molossia. And so is this a. A link to Philip basically saying, yes, gone, Olympias, you can bring this man in. Was this man someone who Olympias asked Philip to bring in to. To help educate Alexander? Although there's another contrasting story which suggests that Olympias didn't like this teacher at all. So you can see that's just an example of the nature of our sources. There's also an interesting piece of architecture that survives from one of the great sanctuaries of Greece at Olympia, where Philip constructs this building called the Philippeon, within the sacred priesthood.
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A
So modest. So modest.
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B
Well, exactly the hint, the clue is in the name, isn't it? I think it's the only building within the Outis, the religious precincts there, not dedicated to a God. It's dedicated to Philip and his family. And within you had statues of Philip, but you also had Alexander, the young Alexander the Great and Olympias.
- [21:56]
A
Interesting.
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B
So it's interesting that he chose to depict Olympias there. And there's one other thing that I would say kind of to pro the point that maybe Philip and, you know, he was always wanting at least to do a few acts once in a while that Olympias would have been happy about, which is to do with Olympias, his brother. Now, this is where it gets slightly confusing, because he's also called Alexander. So he is Alexander too.
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A
We'll call him Uncle Alex.
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B
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. He is the uncle of Alexander the Great. So this is Uncle Alex. Alex ii. And he is the younger brother of Olympias. And he also goes to the court of Philip and Alex too. One source says that he becomes a catamite of Philip ii.
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A
Oh, now that's complicated family relations.
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B
Yeah, exactly. So he's married to Olympias. And, you know, Olympias younger brother is his catamite. This idea that in one of our sources. But the key thing here is that after a decade or so, Philip decides that he's fed up with the current king of Molossia, Olympias's uncle. And so he marches an army into Molossia, gets rid of that king, and in his place installs young Alexander. Alexander ii. So Olympias's brother.
- [23:15]
A
Oh.
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B
So you could think that Olympias probably did like that. You know, this idea that Philip has gone and got rid of the old uncle and instead installed her beloved younger brother and his king of Belosha. Yeah. So it suits Philip, but you can imagine it probably also suited Olympias as well. So I'm trying to think of stuff like that, but shall we get into the juicy stuff?
- [23:38]
A
Yes, because it can't have just all been. Yeah, they quite loved each other, but there was a lot of wives and she had a baby and it was great. Like. Yes, stuff does start to come off pretty quick.
- [23:48]
B
Well, the stories that we have surviving, a lot of them seem to suggest that Philip grew up quite frankly scared and lost all interest in Olympias a few years after their marriage. But how far we can believe these? We've got to take them with a massive barrel full of salt.
- [24:04]
A
Okay.
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B
Because of the nature of the sources I mentioned earlier, because of the nature of the stories, Olympias has this strong connection with snakes, which I think is.
- [24:14]
A
Fair enough, and does in the movie Angelina Jollies, like cozying up to snakes all the way through it.
- [24:19]
B
Because do you know what God in the Greek pantheon has a symbol of a snake? It's closely associated with snakes.
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A
Oh, was it the healing God? No.
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B
Oh, Asclepius. Yeah, that's another one. The party God.
- [24:32]
A
Dionysus.
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B
Dionysus the mystery.
- [24:35]
A
I didn't know he likes snakes.
- [24:37]
B
One of my favorite pieces of artwork comes from Pompeii. So this is much later. And it shows Bacchus. Dionysus, but you also see. You see him clad in grapevines. There's Vesuvius. There's a beautiful mountain in the background before it's erupted, covered in vines. And in the foreground you have a big snake, just kind of an S shaped sn the foreground. So it is a big symbol of Dionysus. And we know, although there are exaggerated stories about it, that Olympia seems to have been very big into the Dionysiac mysteries, into the worship of Dionysus. So.
- [25:09]
A
Oh, well, okay.
- [25:10]
B
The fact that she possessed snakes seems very likely where this gets into Philip. Losing interest in Olympias in one of the stories is apparently Philip is peeking through the keyhole. Philip, he's looking like through a slit in the door. And he sees inside Olympias having sex with a snake.
- [25:28]
A
That'd do it. That would. That. If you had to pinpoint the moment your relationship started to turn, it might be that one.
- [25:38]
B
Well, I will Elaborate on it. The snake is supposedly the great Egyptian God Ammon in the guise of a snake. Now that sounds a bit peculiar, doesn't it? We've been talking about Greek gods and now we're talking about a cheap.
- [25:51]
A
That wasn't the bit I thought that was peculiar about that story. No, but now you point it out. Yes.
- [25:56]
B
I'm just so used to it with Greek mythology, you know, gods turning into animals and so on. But Amon is effectively the Greek equivalent of Zeus. So sometimes they're called Amon. Alexander the Great famously visits the oracle of Amon because he's equivalent. He's the equivalent of Zeus. So it's this idea that appears, you know, once we know what Alexander will become and how extraordinary a figure he is, that he's the son of Zeus.
- [26:22]
A
Oh, this kind of snake. Oh, okay, okay. So she's not just chugging reptiles. This is how Alexander was conceived. I don't think this is a true story, Tristan.
- [26:33]
B
I was going to throw out there. Exactly, exactly. I do too. But I think it maybe aligns with this idea, at least that is sometimes presented in the sources that over time Philip did lose interest in Olympias. How much we can say that for certain we cannot. I just thought you would enjoy that story and your listeners would enjoy that story.
- [26:55]
A
I loved that story. But it's amazing how often strange births and strange conceptions turn up in sources for legendary figures. It's almost like we can't imagine that they just had a normal birth, a normal conception. Like King Arthur was supposed to have been conceived through Merlin magic, doing weird stuff and, you know, Christ, virgin birth and all this stuff. So this Olympias is shagging a snake who's actually the Egyptian God. That sort of tracks, doesn't it?
- [27:24]
B
And also, you see. And this is another interesting story, like following Alexander the Great's death, you see the emergence of one of the most remarkable successor kingdoms that kind of Greek Macedonian dynasties in Egypt, the Ptolemies. And what you see happening there is the creation of another story, but surrounding Alexander the Great's conception. And so of course, features Olympias again. But it's this idea that actually the last native Egyptian pharaoh was a man called Nectanebo ii. He went into exile at the court of Philip II in Macedonia. All nonsense. There's no historical claims for this happening at all. But this later romance story includes it. And the crux to that story is that Nectanebo could transform into an Egyptian God, into Amon or into Zeus, and then he basically has an affair with Olympias, and it is he who is the father of Alexander the Great, has sex of Olympias. They give birth to Alexander. What's so important about that? Alexander becomes the new pharaoh of Egypt and then following his death, the Ptolemies claim to be the successors of Alexander. So from that fictional story, you suddenly get the legitimization, a link between the new Greek rulers of Egypt, the Ptolemies, Alexander before them, and then Nectanebo before them. So this trying to show that they were the next in line. But it's another example where Olympias is used basically to try and confirm either the divine nature or the legitimacy of Alexander and his successors. You know, it's really interesting.
- [29:02]
A
It is, isn't it? All right, so we've got a strange story that we both have some doubts about, that Olympias had sex with the snake while Philip was watching, apparently. But what kind of mum was she to Alexander? Because I just have this image, like, of her being like the ultimate stage mother, like, overly pushy. Do we have any records of that? Like, when Alexander is growing up, what kind of mum is she?
- [29:27]
B
Sadly, we don't really. We just have a few stories about it. I mean, I mentioned the tutor earlier and also just the nature of Macedonian politics that Olympias would want Alexander to be. To be Philip's successor. And she would see any other wife, any other children, you know, that emerge from official marriages of Philip as a direct threat.
- [29:54]
A
And were there other children?
- [29:55]
B
Yeah, and this is actually an interesting story in regards to Olympias herself. She also does give birth to a daughter, so she has two children with Philip, the famous one being Alexander the Great, Alexander 1, but also an amazing daughter who I'm sure we'll explore as time goes on, called Cleopatra. And she's Cleopatra one, I think is fair to say, because there'll be another Cleopatra in time. But yes, Philip does have another child. He does have another son, and it's not clear whether he's older or younger. I think he's older. So that, once again, is slightly concerning an older son. His name is Arridaeus and he is born to a Thessalian mum, a Thessalian wife of Philip. And Thessaly is the region just south of Macedonia, So kind of middle Greece today.
- [30:42]
A
Is that better than the Molossians in this strange judgmental system?
- [30:48]
B
If you look at recent history, I think the Thessalians in the earlier 4th century BC have been a very big power.
- [30:55]
A
Okay.
- [30:56]
B
There's one man called Jason of Ferri who's, you know, extraordinary and cavalry horsemen, they have a very rich culture there. So maybe they share more with the Macedonians. It's a great question, Kate. Like.
- [31:08]
A
Yeah.
- [31:08]
B
Would Philip have seen the marriage to this woman Filina as more beneficial than a marriage to the Milosians? Which quite frankly, at the end of the day, the Milosians aren't really a big threat to Macedonia. They're a small kingdom in the southwest.
- [31:21]
A
It's like this wife came from Bristol and Olympias came from Liverpool. That kind of like.
- [31:27]
B
I don't want to. I don't want to say anything too much, but I know what I mean. Friends in Liverpool.
- [31:33]
A
Yeah, but they're edgy in Liverpool. They're sparring for a fight, aren't they?
- [31:36]
B
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's difficult to tell. The interesting story here is that Olympias, and this may well be fiction because of the hostile nature of our sources and this idea. But then again, Olympias was formidable. She would do so much to ensure that Alexander became Philip's successor. Is. Aridaeus seems to be a healthy young boy until he's in his early teenage years, where it becomes obvious that he suffers from some mental disability. We don't know what. But it means that he is incapable of ruling on his own. Which basically, in the kingdom of Macedonia, where you need to be a strong king, you need to be a warlord, you need to be fighting from the front with your men, you know, sharing in the risks of battle. You need to be active and, you know, decision making and willing to risk your life. That kind of puts Aridaeus out of the question. And so one of the stories that emerges is, well, did Olympias poison him when he was younger?
- [32:36]
A
Olympia.
- [32:37]
B
So I don't think that story is accurate once again. But it's another. These stories that emerges is that like, she probably did see him as a threat. Did she poison him so that he was no longer a threat in regards to other children? Yes, he does. They're all daughters, so they're less of a threat. And they're not as targeted by Olympias until after Philip's death. Where one of those daughters who is half Illyrian, which basically means half barbarian, and she's more warlike. She's absolutely extraordinary figure. She becomes a bit more of a threat to Olympias. Her name's Kanane, but I don't want to get too ahead of ourselves, but yes, Philip does have one other son, but he's not capable of really challenging Alexander for the succession.
- [33:21]
A
No. So by whatever means, the road is cleared for Alexander to inherit the throne. Which he does when Philip meets a rather sticky end, doesn't he? What happens?
- [33:33]
B
Yeah, and it's interesting because Philip is killed. He's assassinated, actually, when Philip seems to be doing something for the benefits of Olympias and Alexander. They had a falling out the year before. And we should also talk about this because Philip had married his final wife, who is a Macedonian noblewoman, a young Macedonian noblewoman, also called Cleopatra. So we call her Cleopatra, too. Damn it. Indeed. But at the wedding feast of this marriage, Cleopatra II's mum and dad are dead. And so her guardian is her uncle, a prominent Macedonian noble called Attalus, who is very much seeking favor with Philip. And during this feast, Attilus makes a toast and effectively says, with Alexander and Olympias both in the room, he says to Philip, toasting him and his niece, may you have fine legitimate sons.
- [34:25]
A
Oh, rookie error there.
- [34:27]
B
That's not good. So Alexander hears this, like, he throws his cup across the room at Attalus, goes into a mad frenzy, because basically Atlas has called him illegitimate. You know, he's not a proper Macedonian. This goes back to this idea of a pure Macedonian son. Like xenophobia in his eyes. Xenophobia, I guess, is the right word.
- [34:46]
A
Yes, but even more local than that.
- [34:48]
B
Well, exactly. And basically, Philip gets annoyed, and Alexander flees into exile, and Olympias flees with him. And so for a year or so, maybe less than a year, Olympias goes back to Molosha, and Alexander resides with the old barbarian enemies of the Macedonians in Illyria, so northern Albania and the Balkans. Today, they are reconciled, and it seems Olympias does return. But as part of that reconciliation, it looks like Philip wants to show them that the kingdom of Molossia and the Molossians, they're still dear to him, they're still important, and Alexander's still important to him. So he arranges. And once again, this is a family affair. It's slightly horrific when you think of it. He arranges the marriage of Olympias's younger brother, the new king of Molossia, Alexander II.
- [35:33]
A
Yeah.
- [35:34]
B
To Olympias's daughter, Cleopatra 1. Oh, so Olympias's younger brother and her daughter are getting married.
- [35:43]
A
Oh, no. Right, okay.
- [35:46]
B
Yeah. So it's just the nature of these royal marriages, sadly. But Philip was doing this, once again, said, to try and strengthen this links with Molosha. And maybe as a bit of a peace offering to Olympias and Alexander, it comes to no avail because Philip will be assassinated at that event by a jilted lover, one of his male lovers and bodyguards, a man called Pausanias, who Philip had grown tired of and then had been raped by the aforementioned Attalus at the same wedding feast we mentioned earlier. I'm sorry, there's a lot of events here, but quite frankly, Pausanias gets raped. He complains to Philip about it. Atlas being the new basically uncle. Well, kind of now related by marriage to Philip. Philip says, I can't do anything about it. And one of the rumors is that Pausania seeks solace. He seeks reassurance and help in this difficult time with Olympias. And Olympias orchestrates him to go and murder Philip at this ceremony, which he does. So once again, you get Olympias linked to the murder of Philip. This can't be proven, but she's strongly linked, along with Alexander himself, with the ultimate killing of Philip.
- [36:54]
A
Does that seem likely to you?
- [36:56]
B
There is certainly motive there.
- [36:57]
A
I thought that he was doing something nice for them.
- [37:00]
B
The problem is he may have been doing that, but I think Olympias is thinking first and foremost about Alexander and the solidity of his succession. Philip's new wife, Cleopatra ii, has already given birth to one child. It's a daughter, so it's not a son. But I think there is a fear there also. Philip's about to go on campaign.
- [37:20]
A
Let's move this on. That's what she's thinking.
- [37:22]
B
Yeah. So there is motive there to get rid of Philip so that Alexander can be the clear successor. Now, it's not for certain. There's another line of evidence that it was the Persians who paid, who irked on Pausanias to murder Philip at this event. But I think there is certainly a possibility and Olympias certainly did have the willpower to do it, I would argue.
- [37:44]
A
I think that you're probably right. I wouldn't mess with her. But it's also true that there wasn't a short list of people that would probably want to bump him off. There's a fair few contenders.
- [37:53]
B
Well, that's the factional politics, isn't it?
- [37:55]
A
That's what happens in power, in it. You're going to piss people off.
- [37:58]
B
Yes, but I think there certainly is motive there. There does seem to be a potential idea that Olympias, she was wary of letting things go on too long. She was wary of Alexander's position. She was wary of the influence of Attalus, of Cleopatra's uncle, and how much he could potentially make Philip decide otherwise. Also just how long Philip was going to live for.
- [38:20]
A
Yeah.
- [38:20]
B
So she decides to act, but through the agency of this jilted lover.
- [38:24]
A
Interesting.
- [38:25]
B
There are two horses prepared for him. Whilst Pausanias is trying to run away from the crime he doesn't escape. But once again, it adds to this idea that this is a planned event.
- [38:37]
A
I'll be back with Tristan and Olympias after this short break.
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D
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- [41:04]
A
Now Alexander is gonna be crowned. I don't know. What was he? King? Emperor?
- [41:07]
B
King. Yeah, King.
- [41:09]
A
And now Olympias is gonna have to face what every single mother of a powerful man has had to face throughout history. You've bred him to be king and you've trained him. And, like, you kind of like, you thought you could be, like, a bit of a puppet, but eventually he is gonna become his own man and maybe won't want his mum calling the shots, like, what happens when he actually takes power.
- [41:31]
B
Yes, and exactly. I think we would have seen more of that directly if it hadn't been for the fact that within two years of him assuming the throne, Alexander is out campaigning, he launches his invasion of the Persian Empire and he never returns to Macedonia again. Right, okay, stays. But that's not to mean that they never communicate with each other. They do send letters to each other. Once again, this is a case where the surviving source is probably. You know, you've got to sort fact from fiction there. But what we can see is, is that Olympias evidently meant a lot to Alexander. Alexander, the greatest son. We're going to be talking largely about him from now on, not Olympias's brother. And that he seems to have made his closest members of the family, which is his mother and his full sister, his official family. So they are elevated. They are basically the royal representatives which represent Alexander in Europe, in Macedonia, when he's out campaigning in the East. Any other members of the royal family, half sisters. And his half brother, Aridaeus, who he doesn't kill off, by the way, doesn't see him as a threat. Really interesting. We'll probably come back to him. He doesn't make his official family. He tries to marry one of them off. The rest just kind of retreat into relative obscurity for years. And Alexander doesn't really pay much attention to them. So there is that genuine connection there that Alexander wants to elevate their status. And it seems that Olympias does hold an important role back in Macedonia whilst Alexander is out campaigning. But she doesn't call all of the shots. And the nature of her letters to Alexander are very, very interesting because in a few of them, there's clear jealousy. She's jealous of some of the closest friends of Alexander and how many gifts he's giving them. And there's one story where she sends a letter to Alexander and she's like, you need to be wary about how many gifts you're giving these certain individuals because it's affecting how much power you have. And just. Just be wary of them, Alexander. Just be wary of them. And at the end of the day, it does seem to be that she's a bit jealous of how much prominence certain figures close to Alexander are getting, including the man who becomes his best friend and almost certainly lover, Hephaestion. It's all very interesting.
- [43:44]
A
So she's ruling while he's away. She's like the queen regent.
- [43:48]
B
She's ruling to an extent. I think it's very clear from the surviving sources and archaeological evidence that she holds some sort of official role. Alexander sends her back loot that he's won in battle. She offers stuff at Delphi, you know, the most important Greek sanctuary to Apollo. Also at Athens as well. She has a very strong connection to Athens, which is something that her family does have a long alignment with. And she does seem to have an important role. However, there is also an official man governing Macedonia, damn it, western territories.
- [44:23]
A
I was hopeful there, Tristan, that she was put in charge of a whole load of stuff.
- [44:27]
B
Who's the man say that? But actually this becomes one of the most fascinating parts of her story because she develops an absolute hatred of this figure.
- [44:34]
A
Of course she does.
- [44:36]
B
And it dominates, quite frankly the rest of her life. And this is a man who's older than Alexander, who actually was from the same generation as Philip ii and actually was one of the closest advisors of Philip ii. So it may well be that Olympias's rivalry hatred of Antipater stemmed back to factional politics. Ever since she was a teenager, we don't know. But Antipater is made the viceroy of Macedonia and Greece. So the Macedonian lands, because they now control Greece as well, west of the Aegean Sea. And what you get is letter after letter apparently being sent by Olympias and by Antipater to Alexander. And effectively they're bitching about each other. Oh no, they're complaining about each other all the time. Olympias is worried about Antipater's power hungry nature. This idea that Antipater actually wants the throne for himself and that he's gaining more and more power than he's supposed to as basically the man in charge of Macedonia and Alexander's absence. Antipater is really annoyed at Olympias because he sees her as just infringing on his power and being a pain in the ass. But she has her own official position and it seems that Olympias is always trying to limit Antipater's power and to limit what Antipater's trying to do. Antipater's sending messages to Alexander saying, look, can you please tell your mum to stop this? And then Olympias is sending messages to Alexander saying, look, you need to be wary of this guy. This guy is causing mischief. He's slowly increasing his power, he's going to take over. It's a fascinating little rivalry you get through Alexander, because sadly, in this period, understandably, all the sources are not focused on Macedonia, they're focused on what's happening with Alexander. So it's through the letters to Alexander that you learn more about what Olympias is doing in the meantime. It does seem that Olympias does gain some success in this, however, because there's one line in our source, Plutarch, who, after he reads a very. And he stresses a very long letter by Antipater just complaining about Olympias, Alexander supposedly remarks, ah, one tear from my mother wipes away 10,000 or thousands of words written against her. So this idea that, you know, his connection to Olympias, you know, the familial connection is so strong that Antipater can complain as much as he wants, but as soon as he sees Olympias, you know, or hears from his mother, Olympias would always win in that battle. And by the end of Alexander's reign, it seems that he starts agreeing with Olympias because he summons Antipater to Babylon. Basically, he aims to demote him. Alexander will die before that happens. He will die in 323 BC. But it's an interesting case of where you have this year long rivalry and this growing hatred and wariness of one another, of Olympias and Antipater, that just endures through, it seems, the entirety of Alexander's reign.
- [47:43]
A
Could you even imagine being on the receiving end of those letters of just like. Alex. Alex, mate, I'm so sorry. There's another one that's arrived. Fox. Hey. Just having to, like, read through. Blah, blah, blah. Oh, my God, Mum. Yes, all right, just. Oh, because that's politics, isn't it? You know that when you get past all the war and the glitz and the glamour, it's just diplomacy with a lot of people thinking that they know what's best for you.
- [48:09]
B
Absolutely. And Alexander's not alien to that at all. The jostling of people for his attention at court, you know, and whispering stuff in his ear. Olympias can't be there in person. Cleopatra, his sister, can't be there in person as well. They are both back in Europe, Cleopatra going back to us, talking about powerful women. In the meantime, Olympias's brother, the other Alexander, Cleopatra's husband, the King of Molosha, has died, basically trying to emulate the achievements of his nephew Alexander, one in the east, by campaigning in Italy. He dies badly there, trying to extend control. But what's interesting there is Cleopatra becomes the Regent of Molosha, she actually becomes in charge for a bit of time. So you have actually Alexander's sister also commanding a lot of power. So you have the two closest female family members of Alexander. Although they have troubles, particularly from Antipater, they are almost certainly controlling quite a bit of power in Alexander's empire west of the Aegean, in Europe.
- [49:10]
A
All right, so how does this end up then? Does Olympia die of old age in her home, in her bed, nice and safe, and everyone thinks, oh, that's, that's a shame?
- [49:21]
B
No, I'm sorry to say, no. Olympias is an absolutely formidable woman who you wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of. And Antipater and his family do get on the wrong side of. But Olympias herself is also not immortal. She's not invulnerable. And actually, when Alexander the Great dies unexpectedly, you know, age just 32 in Babylon, all of a sudden her son, one of the keys to her protection, quite frankly, has died. And what follows Alexander's death is this extraordinary period of chaos where all these people competes for power in his empire, these various rules. But you also see prominent women rising to the fore, trying to ensure that they align with the winners. And that is clear with Olympias and her daughter Cleopatra. Because what do they have that many other figures don't? They have a direct royal bloodline to Alexander the Great. And so they become very appealing to many of these generals, these Alexander like figures who fought with him for generations, who are trying to seize power in this post Alexander world. And what way to secure your legitimacy? By marrying in to the royal family. Now, none of them would marry Olympias. She's too old by this point. She's probably in her 60s at least. She'd probably also destroy them, let's be frank. But they could marry Alexander's sister, Cleopatra, now a widow, you know, and she'll be in her 30s, early 30s at the oldest. And so what you see is Olympias and Cleopatra forming this extraordinary mother daughter team where they start to align, you know, put out offers to generals who are coming back west following Alexander's death to marry. Because once again, they also need to secure themselves in this, this difficult world. Antipater's still alive. There's the threat from him. He's got quite a few sons as well. And he's being pretty active in the marriage market, trying to align himself with other generals who are rising to power at this moment. And so what you see is Olympias and Cleopatra trying to secure marriages with certain generals to secure Their position. They try it with one general. He comes back west. He's very happy. He's excited because he's going to marry Cleopatra. Then he dies. He dies in battle, so that one falls apart. They then go right for the top. They go for the man who becomes effectively the next ruler of the empire. He's the regent. He's not the king, but he's the regent because the king at that time. There are two. One of them is the Arridaeus I mentioned earlier. The one who Olympias could have poisoned, but he's just a figurehead because he can't rule in his own right. And the other is the Third, Alexander, Alexander 3, which is Alexander the Great's infant child. He's just a boy. He's only born actually, after Alexander dies, so he can't rule either. So you have a regent, and that man is Perdikkas. And so they petition Perdiccas. They say if you come back west if you bring back the body of Alexander the Great as well you bring back the royal army, if you also bring back those two kings you've got all these symbols of legitimacy. Come back to Macedonia with all your troops and we will meet you there. Olympias, the mother of Alexander the Great, and marry Cleopatra. Perdiccas has got all these symbols of authority. He becomes the new. He basically will become the new king. I think that's pretty clear what the plan is. Doesn't work out. Perdiccas dies in Egypt. That plan fails as well. But those are just examples of how Olympias, you know, she's trying to be a mastermind now with her daughter to secure her position now that Alexander, her son, has died and they don't work. In fact, it goes the opposite way because Antipater becomes the top dog. He actually becomes the winner. He's old, but he defeats Perdiccas and the others. He becomes the top dog for a couple of years. He then dies. But his son, a man called Cassander, then rises to the fore. And this really annoys Olympias because she has now got it into her mind because of how much she hates Antipater that he, Antipater and his whole family were actually responsible for Alexander's death.
- [53:29]
A
Okay?
- [53:29]
B
She doesn't believe that Alexander died a natural death.
- [53:33]
A
Okay? Okay. That's bollocks, though, isn't it? That's just. She's just stirring stuff up.
- [53:38]
B
It's a big rumor that does get some credence. But she believes that Antipater's son, Cassander, goes to Babylon because he does and then one of Antipater's other sons, a man called Iolas, who was Alexander's cup bearer, poisons his drink. And then that's why Alexander dies at that age.
- [53:54]
A
Okay.
- [53:54]
B
It seems that Olympias is convinced by that rumor that spreads. And so she retreats back to her family region of Molosha and stays there for a few years because she thinks she'll be in danger in Macedonia. She still wants to secure her grandson, this third Alexander's rule, this infant Alexander's rule. But that's still going to be a decade or so's time for that to happen. And she knows that the people like Cassander is basically the new Antipater, once Antipater dies, could be a threat. And this ultimately happens because a few years later, all the action is back in Macedonia. Arridaeus has returned to Macedonia. Cassandra is back in Macedonia. Olympias is in Molossia. But then she hears that Arridaeus wife basically aligns Arridaeus, this king, with Kassander. And now Olympias fears for her grandson.
- [54:50]
A
I'll be back with Tristan and Olympias after the short break.
- [55:05]
F
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- [56:49]
A
There's the baby grandson, Alexander's actual son, but he's too young to do anything. So a whole load of other people have got into the fray, going, we'll do it. And now this baby's very vulnerable because if they take him out, then they're pretty much golden.
- [57:01]
B
Exactly. Two kings. And now Olympias fears. Oh, hang on, this other king because of his wife, who's very, very strong hearted. She's called Eurydice. Fascinating woman. Has decided to align her husband with Kassandra, who's a rising power. Olympias is in Molosha at that time, but the man, the general who controls the infant baby, Alexander iv, retreats to Molosha and basically begs Olympias to help. Like, please leave Molossia. Leave the safety of your home region.
- [57:30]
A
How old's she by this point?
- [57:32]
B
She's in her mid-60s. Mid-60s at least.
- [57:35]
A
Not worth it. Just retire, grow some herbs. Just.
- [57:39]
B
You need to understand the importance of family for these people. You know, her son is dead, but her infant grandson, she probably knew that the chances were slim in this chaotic world that he would rise to adulthood and become the next king.
- [57:51]
A
All right. Yeah. My mum would kill for her grandchildren. Yeah, okay, good point. Yep.
- [57:55]
B
It seems that she decides. Right. Okay. I've also now seen that this other queen has declared for Cassander, and I think they will slowly try to make Arrhadeus the Soul King and then seize power through that. Which means that my infant son will be out of the picture for good. And it'd be really hard to reinstate him. So what she does, she enlists the help of the new king of Molossia, who's another family member. She marches with this army into Macedonia and she accompanies it back very much with this idea that she will be a guardian of this infant Alexander IV and try to see that he rises to prominence. This extraordinary story then that when she's marching into Macedonia from Molosha, the queen of the other king who declared for Cassander.
- [58:41]
A
Yeah.
- [58:42]
B
Rallies troops and marches out to meet her.
- [58:45]
A
Oh, crazy.
- [58:45]
B
And in one source, it's called the First War of Women.
- [58:49]
A
Wow.
- [58:49]
B
Which, sadly, is nonsense, I'm afraid, because there's no battle, there's no war. As soon as they see Olympias, these troops that this other queen, Euridice, had mustered, they go over to her because of her status, because of her prominence. And so she wins Macedonia Without a fight, she instates Alexander IV as king. And aligning with her brutal streak, she confines Eurydice and Aradeus to a small chamber. She has the incapable Arridaeus killed, he stabbed through. His body is left to rot with Euridice, who she hates, by the way. She detests this other queen who's tried to align with Cassander. And then a few days later, someone enters her cell, offers her a dagger, a noose and some hemlock, so poison, and basically says, you choose which way you want to die. I don't care. And then she dies. But then that's Olympias in a nutshell. She's killed other members of the family. You know, she's killed an infant baby in the past to secure Alexander's succession. She's not afraid to kill people who she sees as a threat to her family. And it's the same with her grandson.
- [59:54]
A
It's very Cersei from Game of Thrones, isn't it? It's sort of giving that sort of vicious, like, I'll protect my family at any costs vibe.
- [60:02]
B
It's kill or be killed, this idea that it is brutal, it is a horrific way that she did it, that the stories have survived that she did it, that she removed these royal rivals now that they've declared for Cassander. But the terrible way to say it is that some would argue that it is necessary to secure the legitimacy of the figure. She'd done it also. Alexander had done it also when he became the new king. She's not scared to do away with people that she thinks would be a threat to either her son, first of all, and then her grandson, Alexander iv. But then she goes on this mad killing spree. She kills lots of Cassandra's supporters in Macedonia, which might not be a good move. She desecrates the tomb. She destroys the tomb of one of Cassandra's brothers, which is the figure of Iolas, who she thinks was the cupbearer who poisoned Alexander. So she destroys his tomb, she spreads that rumor that Alexander was poisoned by Antipater's family. And the sources say that the Macedonians, you know, they start to think twice about Olympias and a new rule, saying, oh, hang on, this is. You know, this is going a bit too far. How much we can believe that we don't know. The killing of Cassandra's supporters, a hundred of them, may be going a bit too far. But quite frankly, Cassandra is still in Greece at this time. He's further south with an army. He reacts when he hears that his Brother's tomb has been destroyed. And that his ally, you know, this queen has been killed and the king has been killed. And that he's got a very hostile Olympias now in charge in Macedonia. So he marches north of an army straight away. And it seems to be a case that Olympias and her generals really mismanaged the military side of the upcoming war because it's defeat after defeat for her. In the war that follows, Cassandra gains victory after victory. And ultimately Olympias, you know, still fighting in her mid-60s at least by this time. She withdraws to one city. And she's besieged by Cassandra's forces for several months. Starvation kicks in, like all the animals are killed. There might even be hints of cannibalism as well. And ultimately, Olympias surrenders to Cassander. Okay, you can imagine that that's not good news for Olympia.
- [62:13]
A
Good news for her. They didn't just go, don't do that again. Off you go.
- [62:18]
B
No. And even though she is the mother, she still holds the big important title of mother of Alexander the Great. It's not going to save her because Cassander wants to do away with her. He says, okay, you surrender, I'll guarantee you safe passage. You can go away somewhere else. You'll be okay. Our surviving source suggests that actually this was just Cassander giving an excuse. And then once Olympias was out of the kingdom, the boat would surprisingly sink or something like that. She'd die in a tragic accident. Olympias knows that that's what Cassander wants, so she says, I'm not falling for that. I want a trial with the Macedonians. Which suggests that she still thought she held good sway with the Macedonians, that they would pardon her, that they would make Cassandra think twice. And it seems Cassandra thought that as well, because he doesn't want her going to trial. He know that she sussed him out. So he tries to send these mercenaries, these basically assassins, to her. The sources go that they enter the room where she is, and she's so formidable and striking in her appearance that she berates them so hard that she tells them off, that they. They just cower and they. They walk away. They can't go through with the actual. So Cassandra's just like, damn, that didn't work. Fortunately, Olympias has shot herself in the foot. She's killed quite a few people. And their family members are still lurking about. What Cassandra does is basically goes to these family members. You remember that, Olympias, who killed your beloved son, nephew, dad, uncle? You can get rid of her. Here's a knife There she is, sleeping in that room, and they go through with it. And that is the end of Olympias's story.
- [63:59]
A
She was always gonna meet a violent end, wasn't she? She was never gonna just retire quietly.
- [64:04]
B
It was part of her character.
- [64:06]
A
Yeah.
- [64:06]
B
She knew as soon as she married into Macedonian politics that it was kill or be killed with the nature of Macedonian succession.
- [64:12]
A
Yeah.
- [64:13]
B
And she very much took that to heart. It was the survival. It was first, it was the accession of Alexander as king and making sure that there were no rivals to his throne. It was paving the way for that, maybe even the killing of his dad, Philip. She made many enemies, and I think it was natural she was going to make enemies because she very much threw herself into the fray in that regard. And also, quite frankly, the fact that she wasn't a pure Macedonian, that there would have been other aristocrats in Macedonia that didn't like her for that. And also the ancient Greek natural fear of powerful women. She was always going to bring enemies. And you could argue, yes, she saw herself in the foot, ultimately, in the end, by seeing off the brutal killings of several members of the family, including a king and queen. That doesn't help her reputation. She went all in. And that resulted in her having a lot of enemies that ultimately spell her downfall. But I think if she hadn't have gone all in, she would have been used like a pawn, or she would have been done away with much earlier. So the alternative is, could she have just stayed in Molosha and lived out her life there? Yes, she could have. I think it would have been even less likely that her grandson would have lived to adulthood. Shocker. He doesn't. He's killed a few years later anyway. But the chances were always very slim that he would live to become the next king. It's such a chaotic world following his death. But that is the nature of Olympias's story. A formidable, powerful, scary woman. The surviving sources have made her quite the villain, quite the horrific character. It's important to sort fact from fiction with it. But then at the same time, not to go too far with that, to understand that, you know, she's not a victim. She is still an absolutely formidable woman in her own right.
- [66:05]
A
Tristan, you have been wonderful to talk to. I knew that you would be. And if people want to know more about you and more about Olympias, quite frankly, where can they find you?
- [66:13]
B
Well, they can find me on social media, on Instagram, at Ancient Tristan. And I guess that gives you a clue as to what I do. First and foremost, which is a sister podcast of Betwixt the Sheets of History Hit, which is of course the Ancients. So you can listen to my tones on the Ancients where I take Kate's role of interviewing other experts on various areas of ancient history and prehistory and dinosaurs.
- [66:38]
A
Will you come back and talk to us about some other ancient badasses?
- [66:41]
B
I'm sure we can find someone that I'd be happy to come back and talk about and roll on about for hours on end.
- [66:48]
A
Thank you so much Tristan. You have been marvelous.
- [66:51]
B
Thank you Kate.
- [66:56]
A
Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to Tristan for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is you get your podcasts. This month we will be back looking for the biggest fuckboys in history, so don't miss that one. And if you fancied putting forth a candidate of your own, not your ex, please give it about 100 years. Then please email us at betwixt history hit.com this podcast was edited by Tim Arstel and produced by Sophie G. The Senior Producer with Charlotte Long. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets the History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.
- [67:41]
C
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- [68:09]
E
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