Anne Boleyn | Secret Lives of the Six Wives

Summary

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society

Episode Summary: Anne Boleyn | Secret Lives of the Six Wives

Host: Kate Lister
Expert Guest: Dr. Nicola Tallis
Release Date: November 22, 2024

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Introduction to Anne Boleyn

In this episode of Betwixt The Sheets, host Kate Lister delves deep into the tumultuous life of Anne Boleyn, the second wife of King Henry VIII. Joined by Tudor historian Dr. Nicola Tallis, they unravel the complexities behind Anne's rise and fall within the volatile Tudor court.

Notable Quote:
Kate Lister [04:34]: "Anne Boleyn really set the cat among the pigeons of the Tudor court... but was all of this a measure of just how charismatic and captivating she was?"

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Anne Boleyn's Entrance into the Tudor Court

Anne Boleyn entered the English court in 1522, catching King Henry VIII's attention by 1526. Unlike other women at court who sought favor through becoming mistresses, Anne sought a committed marriage, distinguishing herself with her elegance, sophistication, and intelligence.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Nicola Tallis [07:08]: "She had this real elegance and sophistication and confidence... she just really oozes style and charisma."

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Personality and Influence

Anne was not merely a figure of beauty but possessed a formidable intellect and a keen sense of political and religious reform. Her time abroad in the courts of Margaret of Austria and Queen Claude of France enriched her perspective, allowing her to influence King Henry VIII beyond mere romantic involvement.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Nicola Tallis [14:41]: "Anne displayed a real elegance and sophistication... she really knew how to play Henry."

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The Marriage of Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn

Their relationship was marked by a prolonged courtship spanning several years. Anne insisted on marriage rather than becoming Henry's mistress, a stance that intensified Henry's desire and commitment. In January 1533, they married secretly, leading to Catherine of Aragon's annulment and Anne's public coronation in June 1533.

Notable Quote:
Kate Lister [09:33]: "Henry was head over heels for Anne."

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Accusations and Downfall

Despite initial hopes, Anne's failure to produce a male heir and her strong-willed nature led to Henry's waning affection. Influenced by his advisor Thomas Cromwell, Henry orchestrated a series of fabricated charges against Anne, including adultery, incest, and witchcraft. These accusations, entirely baseless, culminated in her arrest and eventual execution in 1536.

Notable Quotes:
Kate Lister [36:26]: "These are mad charges... they threw in witchcraft there as well, didn't they?"
Dr. Nicola Tallis [37:42]: "They are all completely falsified... she was never going to get away with this."

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Anne Boleyn's Execution and Legacy

Anne faced her execution with dignity, maintaining her innocence until the end. Her legacy is twofold: she is remembered as the mother of Queen Elizabeth I and as a woman who dared to assert her influence in a patriarchal society. Anne's intelligence and political acumen left an indelible mark on English history, paving the way for future female leadership.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Nicola Tallis [44:06]: "She was a woman who wasn't afraid to make her voice heard in a man's world and who did try to wield power and assert authority in her own way."

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Conclusion

The episode paints Anne Boleyn as a multifaceted figure—beyond the stereotypical images of seduction and scandal. Her strength, intelligence, and tragic end highlight the precarious position of women in power during the Tudor era. Anne's story serves as a testament to her resilience and her lasting impact on English monarchy and society.

Notable Quote:
Kate Lister [44:55]: "She was a woman of immense character and we shouldn't forget that."

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Produced by: Stuart Beckwith & Charlotte Long
Edited by: Tom Delaghi
Music: Epidemic Sound

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For those intrigued by Anne Boleyn's story and eager to explore more about the secret lives of Henry VIII's six wives, stay tuned for the next episode in this miniseries, featuring Jane Seymour.

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

Hi, I'm your host, Kate Lister. If you would like Betwixt the Sheets ad free and get early access, sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every single week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe. Thanks for listening to Betwixt the Sheets. To get all History Hit podcasts ad free early access and bonus episodes, head over to historyhit.com subscribe. Or you can sign up on Apple Podcasts with just one click.

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[Nicola Tallis]

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[Kate Lister]

Hello my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. And you are you. And you are listening to Betwixt the Sheets. And it's a very, very naughty, spicy podcast. And because of that, I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty. And you should be an adult too. So if you've snuck in here to listen to your mum's podcast without her knowing, we'll be off with you. We're not the podcast for you. Go and listen to a nice horrible histories and leave us alone. And for the rest of you, let's get on with it. Being a Tudor queen was very difficult. I mean, you got jewels and nice things, but wow, it was strict. And if you were one of Henry VIII's wives, well then the rules just meant doing exactly what he said, bending to every Whim and desire, no matter how harebrained or deranged. But as history tells us, that didn't always go to plan. The women in Henry VIII's life were smart.

[Nicola Tallis]

She was a woman who had her own voice and wasn't afraid to use it.

[Kate Lister]

Powerful.

[Nicola Tallis]

She wanted to send Henry the dead king's body as like a war trophy.

[Kate Lister]

And rebellious.

[Nicola Tallis]

She was a definite seductress who knew exactly how to play Henry.

[Kate Lister]

But they could also be naive.

[Nicola Tallis]

She is well aware that there is someone trying to get to the bottom of her previous life and she slips.

[Kate Lister]

Up and downright unlucky.

[Nicola Tallis]

I think that there was no way that her life was ever going to be saved.

[Kate Lister]

Who were these women that entered the volatile world of the Tudor court? They're known for their individual fates. Divorced, beheaded, died. Divorced, beheaded, survived. But we're finding out who these six women really were and why there is so much more to them than just their husband. A fat, ginger serial killer with an oversized codpiece and a penchant for jousting. Join me in this miniseries as we explore the secret lives of the Six wives.

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[Kate Lister]

Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and push. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

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Goodness.

[Nicola Tallis]

What beautiful dance. Goodness has nothing to do with it.

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[Kate Lister]

Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Cait Lister. One thing that you could definitely say about Anne Boleyn is she really set the cat among the pigeons of the Tudor court. And then some, not so much set the cat among the pigeons as ripped off all the pigeons heads and put the cat on the throne. What that woman did was bonkers. And to say that Henry VIII changed the course of English history just so he could get his leg over Anne, well, that would be an understatement too. But was all of this a measure of just how charismatic and captivating Anne Boleyn was? How did this unholy mess affect poor old Catherine Aragon, who we heard about in the last episode? And what were the wild accusations that Henry concocted to get rid of Anne once his affections had waned? Because they always do. They always do betwixt us. In this second episode of our miniseries, the Secret Lives of the Six Wives, I'm joined once again by the rather marvelous Tudor expert, Dr. Nicola Tallis. And she is here to help us get to know Anne Boleyn. A little bit better. So without further ado, let's do this. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's Nicola Tallis. How are you doing?

[Nicola Tallis]

I'm back. I'm great. You're back? Yeah, I'm doing good. How are you?

[Kate Lister]

I'm well. I mean, this is the one that people are waiting for. I think. This is the mini episode on Anne Boleyn. And try as we might, there is no escaping the magnetism of that woman. Even however many hundreds of years later, it still is. If we do any subject on Anne Boleyn history hit across any platform that we've got, it'll be a big hitter. People love her.

[Nicola Tallis]

I know. She is kind of like this magnet that people are drawn to.

[Kate Lister]

She really is. Why do you think that is?

[Nicola Tallis]

I think that there are lots of reasons, really. I think people feel a real injustice over the way in which she met her death and feel like they really want to kind of fight her corner in that respect. And I think also that there is this real kind of sex appeal about her. She is quite sexy, and particularly when you think about Catherine of Aragon, maybe slightly dowdy. Like, Anne is polar opposite of that.

[Kate Lister]

Could you imagine, like, how pissed off Catherine of Aragon would be to know that a podcast on Amberlynn got far more hits than the one on her? Did I be fuming.

[Nicola Tallis]

I know. And all the merch as well. Right. Like, you still get the bags, the T shirts. I mean, it's everywhere.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, I know.

[Nicola Tallis]

Anne Boleyn mania.

[Kate Lister]

Well, the king, Henry VIII certainly had Anne Boleyn mania. Possibly the first person to have had this because he lost his shit completely about this woman.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, yeah. He was completely obsessed with her, and she really played on that. She was a real, real smart cookie. She knew what she was doing, and she really knew how to dangle the carrot and keep it there. And, yeah, she was a definite seductress who knew exactly how to play Henry.

[Kate Lister]

So let's talk about where she came from then, because one of the points that you made in the last episode that I hadn't considered is that she was a commoner. I suppose that's because for, like, a pleb like me, she seems really posh, but in regal circles, they actually look down on her.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, she definitely didn't have any royal blood, although she came from a reasonable background. She. But it wasn't royal by any stretch. She's the daughter of Sir Thomas Boleyn and his wife Elizabeth Howard. And Elizabeth Howard was the daughter of the 2nd Duke of Norfolk. So, you know, there is some. There's some good blood there for sure. But, yeah, she is a commoner and despite that, she had quite a nice lifestyle. She was raised in a castle, so it wasn't too bad at all. But there's no comparison with Anne and Catherine of Aragon, for example.

[Kate Lister]

Well, yeah, we should do a bit of a recap of poor old Catherine, just in case people listening to this and didn't catch the last episode. She marries Henry viii. Everything is going rather well for a few years until it's not.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, exactly. And that is really exacerbated when Anne Boleyn comes onto the scene and she arrives at the English court in 1522. And by 1526, Henry is head over heels for Anne.

[Kate Lister]

I wonder if Henry was having problems in his marriage before Anne had turned up. Like, I wonder if, like, maybe it would have fallen apart anyway.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, he was definitely so called having doubts about the validity of his marriage as a result of Catherine's first marriage to his brother, Prince Arthur. And had it or had it not been consummated, Catherine would always say, no, it hadn't been consummated. Henry would harbour suspicions that it had. So, yeah, there were problems. And of course, Catherine had, in Henry's eyes, failed in her duty to provide him with that crucial male heir that he needed. She had had six pregnancies and sadly, the only child who'd survived was one daughter, Mary. So in Henry's opinion, that marriage with Catherine, there were suspicions over the reasons why this so son hadn't materialized. And he felt that perhaps it was because of this earlier marriage with Arthur.

[Kate Lister]

And you mentioned last time there was a biblical verse, wasn't there, that he keeps harking back to?

[Nicola Tallis]

That's it. It was Leviticus and that said that basically, he who uncovers his brother's nakedness shall be childless. So Henry really used this as the key to really kind of reinforce his need to separate from Catherine.

[Kate Lister]

So there's definitely marital discord a brewing, but if Anne hadn't arrived, I suspect they would have just probably carried on as they were. And he would have, just because he had mistresses. He had loads of mistresses. But there was something about Anne, wasn't there?

[Nicola Tallis]

Oh, there was definitely something about Anne. She was truly extraordinary. And what we have to remember as well is that her own sister had been one of these mistresses.

[Kate Lister]

I know, all just Jerry Springer madness, isn't it? Is people. People marrying each other's brothers and she often gets forgotten about, doesn't she? Mary Boleyn. Tell me about her and how she met Henry.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah. So Mary Boleyn was a member of Catherine of Aragon's household, so she would have been. I know it's all kind of weird and all very close, isn't it, but.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, it is.

[Nicola Tallis]

That's kind of how it was. We don't know a lot about her affair with Henry viii, but it is likely that it resulted in the birth of a child, a daughter named Catherine. And after this, or probably after this, Henry seems to have lost interest and discarded her. So this was something he'd already done before with at least one other woman as well, who'd had a child by him. So Anne had seen this, she'd seen firsthand the way in which the King had treated and discarded women when they'd served his purpose, basically. And she was determined that that was not going to happen to her and she held out for more, even when Henry offers to make Anne his sole mistress. So no other mistresses but her and basically. Yeah, exactly. Queen in all but name. Anne's like, no, I'm not having that. It's marriage or nothing. So she makes it very clear.

[Kate Lister]

What do you think it was about Anne that was different about the other? Because he's surrounded by beautiful women, there are parents literally flinging their daughters in front of him in the hope that he'll fancy them and make them his mistress. What was it about Anne that was different, apart from the fact that she wouldn't shag him, but he must have been interested in her before that.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, I think it was something about her in terms of her personality rather than her looks, because certainly in terms of looks, nobody at the time really thought that she was a conventional beauty. She was dark when the fashion was for blondes and she had this kind of swarthy olive complexion when it was fashionable to be pale. Certainly nobody by 16th century standards considers her to be exceptionally gorgeous, but I think it's the fact that she had this real elegance and sophistication and confidence about her, which she'd gained whilst she was abroad during her youth, because, first of all, she had spent some time in the court of Margaret of Austria, where she had, you know, been educated, and then she had gone to France where she'd served in the household of Queen Claude. So she had picked up this real style and sophistication during her time abroad. And in fact, when she comes back to England, somebody actually says that you'd never have taken her for an English woman, but more a French woman because she, she's got these really smart, polished manners and she just really oozes style and charisma. And I think that it's really. That that really grabs Henry's attention and sets her apart from other women at court.

[Kate Lister]

She's really smart to work out that the role of the royal mistress is notoriously precarious. It's predicated entirely on the king fancying you. And if, like, if anyone thinks back to their dating history of how quickly you can go from, oh, but I love them to fucking, I hate their guts, how fast that can happen. And then your entire career is actually dependent on that. I mean, it's terrifying. But she was smart enough to work that out, that, no, if you sleep with him and then you've given him what he wants, then he will probably just cast you off.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, exactly that. Like, Anne believed that she was better than that and that she deserved more than that. And I think very quickly she recognized the passion that Henry felt for her and she really, really played on that. So she knew what she was doing and she felt that there were really high stakes to be played for. She recognized that weakness in Henry's marriage with Catherine of Aragon. And I think that it's not that long before she perceives an opportunity there.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Nicola and Anne after this short break.

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[Nicola Tallis]

Oh, wouldn't.

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[Nicola Tallis]

Join us on Amazing Wildlife to find out.

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[Kate Lister]

So good, so good, so good.

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[Kate Lister]

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[Nicola Tallis]

It's perfect.

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[Kate Lister]

I've sometimes wondered, I don't know how what you think of this, but I've got a little theory is that maybe her gameplay of like, well, no, we're not gonna have sex. I won't be your mistress. We're not gonna have sex. Maybe she just genuinely didn't want to be his mistress. But it's the king. It's like she's in this awful position of like, what are you gonna do? Like turn down the king? And he's trying to cheat on his wife and he's promising her all this stuff. Maybe she just genuinely didn't want to.

[Nicola Tallis]

I do think that there's definitely an element of that to begin with. I mean Henry at this point he's still quite attractive. He's starting to get bigger.

[Kate Lister]

How old was he? Ish. At this time.

[Nicola Tallis]

So by this point he's in his 40s.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Nicola Tallis]

At this point, many people do still consider him to have lots of promising physical attributes. Okay, so he's not, he's not the giant gross monster that we see kind of later on in life who's dragging around an ulcerated leg. That's not the thing yet. But I think to begin with, I'm not sure that Anne particularly was attracted to him. I think that that's something that maybe does come along a little bit later.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. And the weirdest thing is that she's in court as Catherine of Aragon's lady in waiting, you know, like her official friend. I suppose. It's so weird. What on earth must Catherine have been thinking of this? That she's got to hang out with this woman that she knows her husband is, is trying to get away with and it's.

[Nicola Tallis]

Oh God, I know. I mean, yeah, inwardly I'm sure Catherine must have been absolutely fuming. But outwardly she carries on very much as normal. She shows Anne no kind of signs of animosity. She's very polite to her. So she is very much still acting as a very, very classy queen at this point. I think for quite a while she was convinced that and would go the same way as all of these other women and that Henry would tire of her.

[Kate Lister]

So what does it look like then, when Henry VIII is desperately trying to get you to be his mistress? What does wooing look like? I mean, today we've got text messages and you up texts at 3am I'm going to assume he's not doing that. But what does he do to try and woo and seduce Anne Boleyn?

[Nicola Tallis]

So Henry's seduction technique comes in the form of letters and presents. And he writes her a who series of these letters that we've still got. Unfortunately, we haven't got Anne's replies, those were destroyed. But in these letters, some of them, they're quite explicit.

[Kate Lister]

Interesting.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, they really are. Like, he talks about the fact that he'd like to kiss her pretty duckies. So basically wants to kiss her boobs.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Nicola Tallis]

And you know, and he's sending her presents, he's sending her bracelets that have got an image of him included in their design.

[Kate Lister]

Well, how would you receive that today if someone sent you a text saying, I'd like to kiss you pretty duckies and here's a necklace with me in it? I don't know, I think that might be restraining order time.

[Nicola Tallis]

It's quite intense, isn't it?

[Kate Lister]

It's like. But not for him. This was completely normal for him.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah. And you can kind of see his desire and his desperation for Anne growing through these letters. So I think, I think she probably, even though we don't have her responses, I think she probably kind of gave him just enough to encourage him to carry on with this. And this kind of tactic of keeping Henry at arm's length, it works and.

[Kate Lister]

It works for years. The play hard to get tactic, I mean, it's a dangerous one. Anyone out there thinking of giving it a go? But generally people want what they can't have. And if they think that if someone has to do a bit of chasing, it can be an interesting dating technique, but not for years and years. And that's what this is.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, it's really intense and I think that it does actually put quite a lot of strain and a lot of pressure on Anne and God, it must do. Of course, nobody expects the annulment between Henry and Catherine of arrogant to drag on for as long as it does. So that is the reason why Henry is kept at bay for Such a long time, because nothing less than queenship will do for Anne. But, yeah, it puts a huge toll on her and. And their relationship, actually. And we know they do have a couple of fallouts. There is stress, and, I mean, surely that would be the same for anyone in that situation. It's a completely unprecedented and weird situation for anyone to be in.

[Kate Lister]

And actually thinking about it, the longer this is going on, it's like the King has got. Well, no, he doesn't have that much to lose because he can just sod off again and be the king. But Anne, the longer this is going on, the longer she isn't marrying somebody herself and having her own children. And back then, that was a woman's security. She needed to do that. So the longer that this is dragging on, the older she is getting, the less her own marriage prospects are increasing. That must have been very stressful.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, definitely. There's this real sense from Anne as well that her youth is kind of escaping from her, because she's probably born in 1501. So by the 1530s, she's in her 30s, probably. And by that time, if you've not had a child, you're considered to be quite old to even be thinking about it. So, yeah, there is this real sense that time is running away and the stakes are really, really high for Anne as well, because if this doesn't work out, what's she gonna do?

[Kate Lister]

What is she gonna do?

[Nicola Tallis]

If that hadn't worked out, who knows what would have happened to her? I mean, she gets this sort of piece of security, I guess, in 1532, when Henry creates her Marquess of Pembroke in her own right.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, well played.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, exactly. That's kind of like the first official sign, I suppose, that marriage isn't far away on the horizon and that things are hopefully gonna work out for her. You know, she's got her own income from this as well, so that's quite good for her. But, yeah, I think in terms of. I mean, there wasn't really any other option for her if it didn't work out. It had to work out, but it.

[Kate Lister]

Must have crossed over at a certain point of, like, well, like, she's all in now. This has got to pay off. And the other thing I hadn't quite realized about Amblyn, because she's often painted as this terribly sexy seducer and all the rest of it, but not only was she incredibly intelligent, but she had real ideas about religious reform. I mean, it's not entirely because of her that Henry abandoned the church, but those ideas about Protestant Reformation. They are coming from Anne.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah. So Anne had probably been influenced in these ideas whilst she was in France and she was at the court of Francis I, whose sister Marguerite is one of the key reformers of the day. And Anne knows her. She's probably influenced by her. And then Anne. Anne shows these books to Henry, one of which is called the Obedience of a Christian Man. And this really kind of advocates the idea that it is not the Pope, who is the head of the Catholic Church. And that's thought to be something that, you know, Anne uses to influence Henry.

[Kate Lister]

So one of your main focuses of research is not just these Tudor wives, but the jewelry that they wore. Telling their lives and looking at who they were through their jewelry, which is fascinating. But Anne Boleyn, tell me about some of her most famous jewelry, because when I'm thinking of it, I think I'm think the big B that she's got. Tell me about that. What was that?

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, that big B. And I always think if Anne was here today, she'd have done quite nicely out of royalties from that, you know, because it's available in all of the gift shops at the Tower of London and Westminster Abbey. And anyway, yeah, it's kind of iconic and an iconic part of Anne's identity. And that was the purpose of it. It was a bee proclaiming Anne's pride in her Berlin roots. And people always ask me, well, what happened to that bee? And the answer is, I don't know for sure.

[Kate Lister]

We don't know. Has it vanished?

[Nicola Tallis]

It's vanished. And I think it was probably melted down and turned into something else because it was so personal and so specific that probably there wouldn't really be anyone else who wished to wear a bee, particularly after Anne's death. But she really liked those kinds of initial jewels, and she had several pieces in her collection. And I think that that's just really interesting because I often think of Anne as being a trendsetter, I should say, actually, that trend, it didn't begin with Anne and it didn't end with Anne. But people still wear initial jewels today. Like, it's still something that's very, very popular. And I think that she definitely had a hand in shaping that. And we know she loved her bling. I mean, who doesn't? But Anne really did. And Henry was constantly giving her gifts of jewelry. And these particular ones, I think, showed how much her Berlin identity, aside from being Queen of England, really meant to her. She was proud of it.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, so when is it make or break? When do they actually get married? I mean, what is even the timeline with this? Does he marry first and then break with Rome, or does he break Rome first? And where's Catherine in the midst of all of this? It must have been absolute mayhem.

[Nicola Tallis]

Absolute mayhem, chaos. Nobody really knows what on earth's going on. So Catherine has actually been banished in 1531. And then what we see happening is that Anne and Henry marry secretly in January 1533.

[Kate Lister]

I'm not sure that's a good sign. Secret marriages.

[Nicola Tallis]

Secret marriages. Yeah. But what's happened is that they've consummated the marriage by this point, and Anne is newly pregnant, so they have to be married now.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, okay.

[Nicola Tallis]

And then what happens is then a few months later in the May, that is when the marriage between Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon is formally declared null and void. And then Anne becomes queen publicly. And then she's given this coronation, this magnificent coronation on the 1st of June, and everybody at that point is expected to celebrate and be happy about this. Of course, they're not, because love for Catherine of Aragon is still very strong. And at Anne Boleyn's coronation, it's really quite funny because everywhere in all of the decorations, we see Henry and Anne's initials combined. Everywhere. Ha. Well, some of the crowds in the coronation procession used this as a way of mocking Anne by saying, ha, ha ha. So it doesn't go down well?

[Kate Lister]

No, it wouldn't. I mean, that's the thing in it is, like, you can bully the courtiers and you can surround yourself with people that think this is a great idea, but ultimately you're not gonna convince the public at large. They were very much Team Catherine.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yes, exactly. So Anne's really fighting a losing battle from the start. And the only thing that gives her confidence at this point, I think, is the baby that she's carrying, which it's confidently expected and predicted will be that coveted boy.

[Kate Lister]

The amount of pressure in this, like, he's. Not only is he divorced his wife, the much beloved Catherine of Aragon. No precedent for this before. And married Anne Boleyn, who's a commoner, but he's broken with Rome. It's like. That's like Brexit times a billion. It's like, torn Europe apart and all that, to get married. The pressure on them must have been insane. And Anne knows. Well, she's done it now. She's given it up. She's had sex with him now. Like, you've got to have this baby.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah. It's a huge amount of pressure. It's Terrifying, actually. And, yeah, I think that. That. I mean, there must have been that worry in her that. Well, hang on a minute. What if this isn't actually a boy? What if this doesn't actually go to plan? But I think that that thought actually never really crossed Henry's mind at all.

[Kate Lister]

No. Hilla thought of it as, this has all fallen into place. This is clearly God himself saying that this is a great idea. It's clearly gonna be a boy.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, exactly that. And then, of course, sadly, it's not a boy.

[Kate Lister]

Did they have a happy marriage? I mean, I know they've been. How long were they doing this dangling courtship for? Was it seven years? Was it longer than that?

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, it's a long time. So as I say, he sort of. He becomes really interested in Anne in 1526, and then it's 1533 by the time that they're married. So that's the whole kind of dangling carrot thing. And then I wouldn't say that it was a happy marriage because how could.

[Kate Lister]

It possibly be a happy marriage?

[Nicola Tallis]

I think. I think also it's on Anne's part. She doesn't make that transition from being in charge, like, having all the power and the control as effectively a mistress without the sex, to wife. Very well. She doesn't do that at all. Like. And this is where we see the differences between her and Catherine of Aragon becoming really, really clear. Because where Catherine had been prepared to look the other way when Henry's off having his affairs, Anne's not prepared to do that.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, right.

[Nicola Tallis]

She's really fiery. So that causes conflict with Henry. He doesn't like that at all. So basically, all these qualities in Anne, her passionate nature, her kind of self confidence, all of these things that he's really loved and that had inflamed him when she was his mistress, they really begin to repel him when she's his wife. And it doesn't take that long at all for him to tire of her.

[Kate Lister]

See, if they'll do it with you, they'll do it to you. That is a very old lesson, and Anne should have known that. I'll be back with Nicola and Anne after this short break. Thanks for listening to Betwixt the Sheets. To get all History hit podcasts ad free early access and bonus episodes, head over to historyhit.com subscribe or you can sign up on Apple Podcasts with just one click.

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[Kate Lister]

Who was he having affairs with that made her mad?

[Nicola Tallis]

Well, with Anne's own ladies. So of course.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, I shouldn't laugh, but there is a part of me there, I think that's just Team Katherine of just like, well, Anne, sorry, but you sort of reap what you sow. Love.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, exactly that. Exactly that. So it's interesting. And then I think she kind of reaches this point where she thinks, well, okay, if he's gonna have mistresses, then perhaps he can at least have ones that are sympathetic to me. And there's some evidence that she tried to shove one of her cousins under Henry's nose in a bid, you know, hopefully that Henry would then be kinder towards her.

[Kate Lister]

So where does this all start to go wrong then? Like, how does Anne misplay this particular game? Because she's very, very smart, I think that's interesting, what you said there is that she just wasn't able to transition to being a wife. Because the role of a wife and a queen is just to put up and shut up. Pretty much, yeah.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah. So what happens is that in the beginning of 1536, Anne miscarries of a child that has all the appearances of being a son. And that is devastating both to her and to Henry, because thus far, all that she's achieved in terms of producing children is exactly the same as Catherine of Aragon. They've got one surviving daughter in the form of Elizabeth. And by this point, Henry's passion for Anne has long since faded and he's begun really pursuing one of her ladies in waiting in the form of one Jane Seymour, who we'll come to, I'm sure. And Anne at this point also has really earned the enmity of Henry's chief advisor, Thomas Cromwell. And they've kind of had different views over religious policy, mostly the dissolution of the monasteries. And with this kind of latest failed pregnancy, Henry's well and truly tired of Anne. And it's probably under Cromwell's auspices that A plot is engineered to remove Anne and then replace her with Jane. And so it comes to light, apparently, that Anne has been not only plotting the king's death, but also that she's been engaging in several affairs with men around the court, and more crucially, someone closer to home in the form of her own brother.

[Kate Lister]

These are mad charges. I mean, they really are, even by the standards of the day. I mean, they threw in witchcraft there as well, didn't they? And all kinds of stuff. I suppose, just as a starter question to all of this. Why didn't Henry just find some way to annul it? Why didn't he just go, I don't want to be married to you anymore? Why was there this need for this spectacular string of accusations to really demonize her? Why couldn't you just. Because that's what he tried to do with Catherine of Arrogant. Just. Just go away. Just go away and I'll give you some money.

[Nicola Tallis]

I think really that is kind of the answer. He'd been through all of this before with Catherine of Aragon. He'd seen the way in which that had played out. Catherine had not gone down quietly, and he'd gone to such great lengths to marry Anne Boleyn in the first place that actually only the most terrible of charges and terrible of reasons could be used as justification to remove her after all of that. And so that's why they really needed to be things as disgusting as killing the king and as having an affair with your own brother to be able to ensure that Anne couldn't escape.

[Kate Lister]

Was there any seed of truth in any of these accusations at all, or was it all jumped up nonsense?

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, exactly. That it's all completely falsified. I mean, we can see later on when evidence of these charges are brought to light and Anne is accused of having sex with some of these men in certain places, that she wasn't even in those places at the times that these events were supposed to have taken place. So it is all completely concocted and fabricated, and she was never going to.

[Kate Lister]

Get away with this, was she? And it's almost like we're gonna come up with so many things to accuse you of treasonous things that something is going to stick.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, exactly that. I mean, she had no chance. She had absolutely no chance. I think that there was no way that her life was ever going to be saved. And I think that really, execution was ultimately the only way out of it.

[Kate Lister]

Do you think that she saw any of this coming? Or was this just a huge shock and surprise? Was she just like arrested one day and had no idea that this was coming?

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, I don't think that she saw it coming at all. I think that she knew that something was afoot because a couple of days before she was arrested, she had spoken to her chaplain and asked him to keep an eye out for her daughter if anything were to happen to her. So she's obviously worried that there is going to be something coming to light. And she knew. She was aware that she had had a dangerous conversation with one of the men who would be accused of adultery with her and that this had been overheard. So I think that there were signs that she was worried. But, yeah. What happens next in terms of suddenly being arrested, taken to the Tower of London and then the news that all of these men and her own brother have been sent there to join her as well? I think it comes as a complete bolt out of the blue to her.

[Kate Lister]

And she stands aground, too. We were talking in the last episode how Catherine of Aragon didn't. But she doesn't. But Jesus. She doesn't give any ground to this and refuses to assent to any of it.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, exactly. Anne is a strong character and she also isn't prepared to admit to things that are nonsensical and that she quite clearly hasn't done, so. No, she really does stand her ground on this. Like, there's no headway to be given whatsoever. She doesn't admit to any of these charges at all.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. And she's found guilty.

[Nicola Tallis]

Obviously she's found guilty. And unfortunately, then the. The sentence for that is to be burned or beheaded. Holy cow. Yeah, I know. And I think she was worried for at some point that actually perhaps she would be burned and was fearful of the fire. But that, of course, doesn't happen. Henry, as a special favor to her, sends to. I mean, good old bloke that he is.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, yeah, cheers, mate.

[Nicola Tallis]

I know. Sends to France for a special executioner who uses a sword to come to England to perform the task of removing his second wife's head. And, yeah, I think he considers this to have been quite a merciful last act on his behalf for the woman that he'd once been prepared to move heaven and earth for.

[Kate Lister]

And he didn't attend the execution, did he? He wasn't there.

[Nicola Tallis]

No, he wasn't there. No doubt he would have heard about it afterwards because there were enough people who knew Anne well who did attend, including, actually Henry's illegitimate son, the Duke of Richmond. He was there in the crowd watching. So who knows, he might have gone back and told dad about it afterwards.

[Kate Lister]

And how did Anne meet her death then? I think you would have had to have dragged me kicking and screaming and shouting obscenities about the king to the scaffold. But she actually went. She was pretty dignified.

[Nicola Tallis]

She was. She was really dignified. She was determined to make a good end. And I think also, let's not forget that, like Catherine of Aragon, she's got a daughter, so she recognized that there was a need to keep her safe, to keep her well and in the king's good graces. So she does make this short speech in which she actually says quite nice things about Henry.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, she does. Far too nice, really.

[Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, far too nice. But I think that that's all very much with her daughter in mind. And then she has her head removed with a single clean blow of the French executioner's sword.

[Kate Lister]

What happened to her head? We wasn't put on a spike, was it?

[Nicola Tallis]

No, the head wasn't put on a spike, but no, it was. It was actually put with her body into an old arrow chest. So clearly a lot of thought and care had gone into that. And then her remains were interred in the Chapel of St Peter ad Vincula in the Tower of London, and that is where they remain to this day.

[Kate Lister]

We haven't really touched on her relationship with Elizabeth, her daughter, who would obviously go on to be one of the greatest monarchs. But were they close? Did they ever close? She wouldn't have been there, would she? She wouldn't have been watching that.

[Nicola Tallis]

No, no, no. So Elizabeth isn't even three years old at the time that Anne Boleyn is executed. And. And she probably wouldn't really have had any memories of her mother either. But it is clear that Anne did really dote on her daughter. And even though she didn't raise her as such, I mean, she wasn't there every day doing her nappies. Elizabeth was put into the care of other people, a whole household of nursery staff. We see that Anne was busy buying Elizabeth expensive gifts of clothes. And I think that this tells us that she was basically styling Elizabeth as a younger version of herself. And she was proud of her daughter, and she wanted her to be seen and accepted as Henry VIII's legitimate heir. And she was really eager to kind of enforce that view, and she believed that her daughter did have a right to rule after her father.

[Kate Lister]

So, final question then, and you might have just answered it, but what do you think Anne Boleyn's legacy is? I mean, it has to be more than just, you know, a jumped up trollop that seduced the king. She's far more complex than that. What do you think her legacy is?

[Nicola Tallis]

Well, I think that there's two things I think, first of all, yes, there is Elizabeth. There's no escaping from that. She gave us one of our greatest monarchs, a female monarch who showed strength, character, determination. And actually, I think that that is what Anne's other legacy was or is, is a woman who wasn't afraid to make her voice heard in a man's world and who did try to wield power and assert power in her own way. And, yeah, who ultimately had a king eating out of the palm of her hand. So you have to be pretty extraordinary to be able to do that. So she was a woman of immense character and we shouldn't forget that.

[Kate Lister]

Nicola, you have been marvelous to talk to once again. Thank you so much. And I will see you next time for Jane Seymour.

[Nicola Tallis]

Can't wait.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Nicola for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hi, then you can email [e-mail] We've got episodes on everything from pubic hair finally coming your way after many, many requests for that particular topic, as well as the next installment in this limited series. And who else would it be? It's Jane Seymour. This podcast was edited by Tom Delaghi and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the Sheets the History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

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Forever.

Even if you have a baby, Even.

If your baby has a baby, even.

If you grow old and wrinkly and you start repeating yourself, even if you start repeating yourself, even if you're on your deathbed and you need to make one last call or text, right? Or text the long lost son you abandoned at birth, you'll still get unlimited.

Talk, text and Data for just $25 a month. With Boost Mobile Forever.

After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan.

[Nicola Tallis]

Forever.

[Kate Lister]

So good, so good. So good.

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