Catherine Howard | Secret Lives of the Six Wives

Summary

Catherine Howard | Secret Lives of the Six Wives

Episode Release Date: December 13, 2024

Overview

In this compelling episode of Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society, host Kate Lister delves into the tumultuous life of Catherine Howard, the fifth wife of King Henry VIII. Joined by Tudor expert Dr. Nicola Tallis, the episode unpacks Catherine's rise to queenship, the intricate web of her personal relationships, the ensuing scandals, and her tragic downfall. Through engaging discussions and insightful analysis, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of Catherine Howard's life and the volatile environment of the Tudor court.

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1. Introduction to Catherine Howard

[00:00 – 01:59]
The episode opens with Kate Lister introducing the focus on Catherine Howard, positioning her as one of Henry VIII's most tragic and intriguing wives. She sets the stage by highlighting Catherine's youth and the scandalous nature of her marriage to the aging monarch.

---

2. Catherine's Background and Rise to Power

[08:14 – 09:02]
Dr. Nicola Tallis provides a detailed background of Catherine Howard, revealing her connection to Anne Boleyn as a cousin and her origins from the prominent Howard family.

Dr. Nicola Tallis [08:19]: "She is also the niece of the Duke of Norfolk, who is the premier peer at Henry's court."

Catherine's appointment to the household of Anne of Cleves places her in the heart of Henry VIII's court, where her beauty and youth soon capture the king's attention.

---

3. Personal Life Before Marriage

[10:35 – 12:19]
Dr. Tallis discusses Catherine's tumultuous personal life prior to her marriage, including her relationships with her music master Henry Mannix and Frances Dereham.

Dr. Nicola Tallis [10:35]: "From an early age, from her early teens, Catherine is very much exposed to this highly sexualized world."

Catherine's lack of a stable upbringing and the lax supervision by her step-grandmother contributed to her early engagements, which later became points of contention.

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4. Henry VIII's Interest and Marriage to Catherine

[14:40 – 15:51]
Henry VIII's desire for a male heir and his dissatisfaction with Anne of Cleves lead him to set his sights on Catherine Howard. Dr. Tallis explains the strategic nature of this marriage, emphasizing Henry's practical motives.

Dr. Nicola Tallis [15:04]: "He needs sons. She's young enough to produce them. It seems like a very obvious choice when he's made that decision."

Catherine's marriage to Henry VIII is portrayed as both an opportunity and a peril, given the vast age difference and the king's declining health.

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5. The Scandal Unfolds

[22:37 – 31:38]
The episode takes a dramatic turn as Dr. Tallis outlines the series of events that lead to the revelation of Catherine's infidelity. While Henry and Catherine are away from court, news of her past relationships surfaces, primarily through the testimonies of Thomas Culpepper and Frances Dereham.

Kate Lister [25:04]: "It's pulling people down, isn't it?"

Catherine's involvement with Thomas Culpepper and the insider betrayal by Lady Rochford ignites the scandal, prompting Archbishop Thomas Cranmer to investigate her conduct.

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6. Investigation and Downfall

[32:57 – 37:31]
Cathrine Howard's investigation by Archbishop Cranmer is detailed, highlighting the absence of a fair trial and the swift move to imprison her. Dr. Tallis emphasizes the lack of opportunity for Catherine to defend herself, painting a picture of a young woman caught in the ruthless politics of the Tudor court.

Dr. Nicola Tallis [34:13]: "There's no chance that she could publicly defend herself."

Catherine's eventual execution in the Tower of London is portrayed with poignancy, underscoring the brutality of her fate compared to some of Henry's previous wives.

---

7. Legacy and Reflection

[38:18 – 40:55]
In the concluding segments, Dr. Tallis reflects on Catherine Howard's legacy, arguing that she was more a victim of her circumstances than a willing participant in the scandals that led to her demise. Kate Lister echoes this sentiment, expressing empathy for Catherine's tragic story.

Dr. Nicola Tallis [39:30]: "I'm gonna say no, because she was just a poor, naive girl."

The discussion touches on modern perspectives of Catherine's actions, framing her as a naive and vulnerable individual thrust into a dangerous position without adequate support or guidance.

---

Notable Quotes

• Dr. Nicola Tallis [08:19]: "She is also the niece of the Duke of Norfolk, who is the premier peer at Henry's court."
• Kate Lister [10:25]: "What do we know about Catherine? What was she like as a person?"
• Dr. Nicola Tallis [15:04]: "He needs sons. She's young enough to produce them."
• Kate Lister [25:04]: "It's pulling people down, isn't it?"
• Dr. Nicola Tallis [39:30]: "I'm gonna say no, because she was just a poor, naive girl."

---

Conclusion

Kate Lister wraps up the episode with a heartfelt reflection on Catherine Howard's life, emphasizing the unfairness of her treatment and the lack of agency she possessed. The episode sets the stage for the next installment, which will explore the life of Catherine Parr, Henry VIII's sixth and final wife.

Upcoming Episode: Catherine Parr – Delving into the life of Henry VIII's last wife and her role in the Tudor court.

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Credits

• Edited by: Tom Delaghi
• Produced by: Stuart Beckwith
• Senior Producer: Charlotte Long
• Guest Expert: Dr. Nicola Tallis

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This summary captures the essence of the episode, focusing on the historical narrative and analysis without the inclusion of advertisements or non-relevant content.

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

Hi, I'm your host, Kate Lister. If you would like betwixt the sheets ad free and get early access, sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every single week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.

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[Kate Lister]

Hello my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. Welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. I'm thrilled that you have managed to drop by once again and if this is your first time listening, well, extra special welcome. We will budge up and make some room for you. But before we can continue with the podcast, I have to tell you this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adultery way, covering a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. Do you feel safer? I feel safer. Right, let's crack on. Being a Tudor queen was Very difficult. I mean, you got jewels and nice things, but wow, it was strict. And if you were one of Henry VIII's wives, well, then the rules just meant doing exactly what he said, bending to every whim and desire, no matter how harebrained or deranged. But as history tells us, that didn't always go to plan. The women in Henry VIII's life were smart.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

She was a woman who had her own voice and wasn't afraid to use it.

[Kate Lister]

Powerful.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

She wanted to send Henry the dead king's body as like a war trophy.

[Kate Lister]

And rebellious.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

She was a definite seductress who knew exactly how to play Henry.

[Kate Lister]

But they could also be.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Nai is well aware that there is someone trying to get to the bottom of her previous life and she slips.

[Kate Lister]

Up and downright unlucky.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

I think, that there was no way that her life was ever going to be saved.

[Kate Lister]

Who were these women that entered the volatile world of the Tudor court? They're known for their individual fates. Divorced, beheaded, died. Divorced, beheaded, survived. But we're finding out who these six women really were and why there is so much more to them than just their husband. A fat, ginger serial killer with an oversized codpiece and a penchant for jousting. Join me in this miniseries as we explore the secret lives of the six wives.

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[Kate Lister]

You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

And pushing a button.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Goodness, what a beautiful d. Goodness has.

[Unknown Speaker]

Nothing to do with it, Dearing.

[Kate Lister]

Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Shades, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. After that little smidge of a hiccup, that little blip, that was the marriage to Anne of Cleves. And honestly, props to that woman for getting a sweet deal out of it. But Henry is once again on the lookout for a wife. Oh, God. And poor Catherine Howard was next. She was a teenager, a mere slip of a girl when she became queen. And, wow, talk about being thrown into the deep end. Possibly the most scandalous of the six wives. Yes, I am looking at you, Anne Boleyn. Catherine's short life and marriage was filled with sex, scandal and, well, tragedy. Who was Catherine Howard? How on earth did she find herself suddenly married to Henry? What had happened in her short 17 years that had come back to haunt her? And how did this tragic story unravel for her? Honestly, I've got a real Soft spot for Catherine. I really do. In this fifth and penultimate episode of our miniseries, Secret Lives of Six Wives, I am joined once again by the wonderful author and Tudor expert Dr. Nicola Tallis to help us get to know this young woman a little bit better. Without further ado, let's crack on. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Nicola Tallis. How are you doing?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

I'm really good, Kate. Glad to be back with you again.

[Kate Lister]

I'm thoroughly enjoying this miniseries on the wives of Henry viii.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, me too. It's been really fun, sort of, you know, getting rid of a few myths and shedding some different light on these women.

[Kate Lister]

The things that I've learned from you so far. Catherine of Aragon, stoic in defeat, a bit quite scrappy. More scrappy than I thought that she was. She was not going down with a fight, that one. Anne Boleyn, religious reformer. She was into that and very, very intellectual. But all the things that Henry fancied about her suddenly became a problem when she was a wife. I thought that was really interesting. Oh, Jane Seymour. Oh, poor old Jane. But as you pointed out, bit of a player as well. Like she was in the game. She wasn't some sort of simpering victim of all of this. She kind of knew what she was doing. It's just unfortunate she died in childbirth. Anna Cleaves played a blinder. We learned that last time. Well done. Came from not obscurity, but lower nobility in Germany to be the queen for six months and then quite happily went, yeah, all right, I'll be the king's quote unquote sister and go and sit in this castle with loads of jewels. Is that a good summary so far?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

I think that's an excellent summary, yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Because today we've got to look at. I just one of my favorite. But she's. I think she's the one that I find most intriguing. Catherine Howard and what happened to her. So to set the stage, Henry VIII is married briefly to Anne of Cleves and he's bitching and whinging that she's not good looking, she smells horrible. I don't fancier. It's giving proper, like teenage passive aggressive. They don't want to do it energy about the whole thing till eventually it's annulled. But he's already got his eye on Catherine Howard at this point. So can you tell me who Catherine Howard is and how she even ended up in the eye of the king?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Yeah. So Catherine Howard is actually a cousin of Anne Boleyn.

[Kate Lister]

And first red flag.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, I know, right. And she actually comes from one of the most prominent families in England, the Howard family, because she is also the niece of the Duke of Norfolk, who is the premier peer at Henry's court. And she's really catapulted into the spotlight when, probably through the auspices of the Duke of Norfolk, she is appointed to the household of Anne of Cleves. So she comes to court where she catches Henry's eye while she is serving his fourth queen, and it all goes from there.

[Kate Lister]

And she was very young, wasn't she? She was a teenager.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, yeah. So we don't know for sure exactly when Catherine was born, but, yeah, she probably was a teenager, probably about 17 years old at this time. And it's a huge change of circumstance for her because even though she does come from this important family, she has been raised by her step grandmother, the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk, away from the court in a household full of other young girl. So, yeah, suddenly she's given this important position of lady in waiting to Anne of Cleves and is suddenly surrounded by all of the glitz and glamour of Henry VIII's court.

[Kate Lister]

And when do we know that Henry started making moves on Catherine?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Well, definitely we know that he is interested in her by June 1540, so a month before the annulment of his marriage to Anne of Cleves. By that point, Catherine. And the King's notice of Catherine has started to draw comment from people at court who've. Yeah. Who've started noticing that he is very attracted to this much younger, very pretty young woman. And she, in turn, seems to have fully encouraged his attention.

[Kate Lister]

What do we know about Catherine? What was she like as a person? I mean, what are any of like at 17? We're idiots. But do we have any idea of what she was like?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Well, apparently quite promiscuous. And she. Yeah, I know. But again, this whole idea of her marrying Henry VIII would have been something that she would never have dreamed of as a young girl. So, as I mentioned, she goes to live in the household of the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk to be educated. But the Duchess was pretty lax as a guardian, didn't really keep a close eye on Catherine, who was just one of many girls there. And we know that when Catherine was very young, she became engaged in this kind of flirtation with her music master, a guy called Henry Mannix. And the Dowager Duchess actually catches Catherine with manox and boxes his ears, so we're told. And that's not a great start. But then there's another gentleman in the household called Frances Dereham, who seems to have formed an attachment to Catherine. And before long, that relationship seems to have been a fully blown sexual relationship. So from an early age, from her early teens, Catherine is very much exposed to this highly sexualized world.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, so why is this a problem, then? I mean, all right, so she's sowing her wild oats. She's a youngster, she doesn't know the king, she never met the king. No one said to her, at any point, you're going to be married to the king. She has no reason at all to not do these things if she were to, apart from, you know, the societal expectation of the day. But it's not like she's betrothed to him. So what is the issue here?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Well, the issue is that by the time Catherine comes to Henry VIII's notice, none of her sexual past is disclose Henry. So as far as he is concerned, and in fact, as far as most of her family are concerned, Catherine is a virgin. And let's not forget that at this time, the most valuable asset that a woman could possess was her virginity and the idea that she was coming to a marriage completely untouched, completely pure. So that isn't the case for Catherine, but Henry doesn't know that at this time.

[Kate Lister]

Do you think anyone would have asked her, like in the courtship process, when it was kind of looking more likely that Henry was going to ask this girl to marry him, that somebody would have said to her at some point, what's your sexual history here, love?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

No, not really. I think so. The Dowager Duchess of Norfolk, she obviously knows things that have gone on in Catherine's past, but she never discloses that either. But, no, I don't think it ever occurred to anybody to say, I mean, she's young at this point. There isn't any hint of scandal attached to her at this point. Like, why would that be a thing that you would even ask?

[Kate Lister]

What makes it even sadder is looking at it through modern eyes, like these past experiences, like, they sound quite abusive. Like the thing with Maddox, who was a music teacher, like, she was only like, 12. Today, we would say that that was quite clearly abuse. That's child abuse.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, most definitely. Yeah. When you view it from a 21st century perspective, it's pretty horrific. And the fact that Catherine didn't really have anyone who was looking out for her at this point and who was taking an interest in her welfare is quite sad. She was largely alone, and it must have left her incredibly confused, not knowing who she could turn to or not feeling she had anyone to turn to and nobody to guide her.

[Kate Lister]

It's such a mess already. So how does it go from Henry VIII fancying somebody, which she does all the time, and having mistresses, to actually, this is wife material. That's an interesting transition. Why didn't he just keep her as a mistress?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Well, that's a good question, but I think really he wants to free himself from Anne of Cleves. Of course, he doesn't like Anne of Cleves at all. And Henry needs more male children.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, we're back to this again.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, we're back to this. This is a really pressing point in Henry's life is this production of having sons. And he's made it clear that his marriage with Anne of Cleves hasn't been consummated. There's no chance of him having any sons with her, but he does feel that he can get it up with someone else and have sons with someone else. And so Catherine seems like the ideal candidate because Henry's physically attracted to her and he needs sons. She's young enough to produce them. And so it seems like a very obvious choice when he's made that decision. To free himself from Anne of Cleves, he needs to make sure that there's someone waiting, someone in the wings with whom he can start trying for boys again.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Catherine and Nicola after this short break.

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[Kate Lister]

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[Kate Lister]

I wonder if the people around him thought this was a good idea or if they looked at the 17 year old Catherine Howard and just thought maybe not.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Well, Catherine's uncle, the Duke of Norfolk, definitely thinks it's a really, really good idea. Of course he does. He's definitely, I mean, he hasn't learned anything from his first niece, Anne Boleyn, losing her head clearly, because he very much pushes Catherine in Henry's direction and you know, he's instructing her and telling her what she needs to do that she needs to restore the pride of their family. So there's a lot of pressure on Catherine as well. But yeah, she is very, very young. There is a huge age difference between them. And that whole idea for Catherine of marrying Henry can't have been very enticing for her.

[Kate Lister]

Not really. And she's good looking, isn't she? She's a pretty thing.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Yeah. Yeah. So what's quite unusual, I guess is that we don't actually have any authenticated portraits of Catherine. We have. I know. So we have images of her or images that we think are her, but other than that we're just reliant on descriptions of her. And yes, she is believed to be pretty well formed, quite short apparently as well. But certainly she has these characteristics that physically, really, really appeal to Henry.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, so he's got the Hotspur. The marriage is set up. Was it a happy marriage before? It wasn't like what was, what was. Did he manage to consummate this wedding or was he running around whingeing again?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

No, he does consummate this marriage. Poor Catherine. Poor Catherine. And I think despite the fact that physically, by this point, Henry is much older than Catherine, you know, his health is physically in decline. He's got this ulcer which makes him bad tempered, which smells and which, you know, isn't particularly nice for Catherine. She does a really good job of hiding any distaste. She puts a brave front on it. And I think that the reason for this is that she really liked the idea of being queen and she enjoyed the practical side of being queen and the visual side of being queen and the attention, because she hadn't had much attention while she was growing up. And suddenly she is Queen of England. She's able to dance morning, noon and night if she wants to. She's being given the best food, the best wine, all of these beautiful clothes, all of these magnificent jewels, so all of these trappings of luxury. And I think that that makes Catherine very much prepared to put our brave face on it and smile when perhaps she might not otherwise have done.

[Kate Lister]

Did she ever get pregnant?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Possibly. There is a suggestion that she may have been pregnant and that she might have had a miscarriage. We don't know for sure. There's certainly some hint that Catherine herself may have believed herself to be pregnant. But, yeah, if that is the case, nothing ever came of it.

[Kate Lister]

So this could have continued of her just pretending that she's enamored of the king and enjoying being queen and just being, you know, just sort of having a bit of fun. And Henry was clearly. He seems to have really liked her as well. He doesn't seem to have taken against her, does he?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

No, he absolutely adored her. He showered her with presents, he gave her pretty much free reign. And although he wasn't able to dance anymore and partake in all the entertainments at court, he really enjoyed watching Catherine do that. And he loves basically having this younger woman on his arm that he could show off. She was pretty much like a prize trophy wife.

[Kate Lister]

So how does it go wrong then? Because this could have continued. This could have been it.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

This could have been the one got.

[Kate Lister]

His little arm candy. But what goes wrong?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Well, what goes wrong is that in 1541, Catherine and Henry go on this progress up north. And whilst Catherine and Henry are away, back in London, news comes to light of her conduct before her marriage. And this is revealed to Henry when he returns back to London.

[Kate Lister]

Where does it come from? Who's saying what? Who grassed?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, so it's actually a woman who had been part of the household of Catherine's grandmother. The Dowager Duchess of Norfolk and had shared a room with Catherine at one point and she comes along and says, basically, I'm really troubled by this, I'm really troubled by this knowledge. And now I feel that it's the right time for me to share this. Did you know that actually Catherine Howard, she had a full blown sexual relationship with this guy, Francis Dereham, who. Oh, yes, I've just noticed Francis Dereham is now serving in Catherine's household as Queen. He's now her secretary. And yeah, this has happened. That comes to light. Francis Dereham had basically blackmailed Catherine as well after she became Queen to become a member of her household. You know, he said he would keep quiet as long as he was paid for it and that panicked Catherine. So, yes. So this knowledge all comes to light that Catherine hasn't quite been as pure and chaste as she said she has before her marriage. And with that, the news of the affair with the music teacher also comes up. But then there's further scandal because it emerges that after her marriage to Henry viii, Catherine has also become embroiled in some kind of affair with one of Henry's closest and most favourite gentlemen, Thomas Culpepper.

[Kate Lister]

Shit.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Who blabbed.

[Unknown Speaker]

Why?

[Kate Lister]

Why would you feel the need to. Could have just shut up and the whole course of English history would have been completely different. Why would somebody feel the need to reveal this information like, you had your chance. Shut up. I feel very angry that this person did that. I don't know why. Just.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, but it's jealousy. They've seen how Catherine's gone on to do quite well for herself and they want a slice of the accent. Of course it is. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

It's pulling people down, isn't it? Right, okay, so the shit's hit the fan. So who's investigating what? And presumably by when this first comes to light, Catherine and Henry have no idea about this. So who is behind the scenes investigating?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

So the chief investigator at this point is Thomas Cranmer, who is Henry's Archbishop of Canterbury. So it's him who is told of Catherine's misconduct before her marriage and it's he who looks into, into what's going on. And Henry gives him permission to have a chat with Catherine to try and find out what's going on. And to begin with, Catherine is very reluctant to say anything. Of course, why would you be? But gradually, more and more comes to light. More people who were in Catherine's household during her childhood, during her teenage years, are questioned more and more of the story starts to unfold and then eventually it is Catherine herself who really puts her foot in it by mentioning Thomas Culpepper.

[Kate Lister]

Why did she do that? Why did she offer that piece of information up?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

I think it was just a moment of naivety and pure kind of panic at her situation where she becomes so overwhelmed with what's going on and she can't really keep track of what she said at various points. So Cranmer is questioning her, she is under this intense scrutiny. She is well aware that there is someone trying to get to the bottom of her previous life before she has become Queen. And I think she just slips up.

[Kate Lister]

And what does she say about him?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

She mentions that Culpepper has shown an interest in her. She also mentions that she has been engaging in these meetings with Culpepper, although says that they haven't gone any further than words. Anne also mentions the fact that Anne Boleyn's former sister in law, Lady Rochford, has been aiding and abetting these meetings. So Lady Rochford is a member of Catherine's household, She's serving her as a lady in waiting. And that Lady Rochford has also been arranging for Catherine to meet with Thomas Culpepper secretly. And when Catherine and Henry were on this progress in the north in 1541, Lady Rochford was sent ahead, apparently by Catherine, to all of the various places they were staying to try and work out where the best places for Catherine and Culpepper to meet would be. And in one occasion, they even meet in a toilet. Who does that?

[Kate Lister]

Oh, no one who's not misbehaving, that's for sure.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

No.

[Kate Lister]

Do you think that they were having sex or do you think they were just meeting in a toilet for a chat?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

I don't think that they were having sex. I don't think it went as far as that.

[Kate Lister]

It's gone far enough, though, hasn't it?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Yeah. I mean, the fact that you're actually meeting another man when you're Queen of England, you're married, and that there's no one else in the room at the time is a bit suspicious. I think that there were possibly intentions to have sex there, most definitely. And, you know, Catherine even wrote Thomas Culpepper this letter that still survives, in which she signs herself yours as long as life endures. So there's clearly this emotional attachment between them there as well. Definitely.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Catherine and Nicola after this short break.

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[Kate Lister]

Do you think she'd have got away with it if it was just the fact that she wasn't a virgin when she married Henry? Do you think that they'd have still taken her head for that? I mean, it sounds like the Thomas Culpepper thing, which I think is a bit harsh because like this is. She's flirting with him, basically. This is kind of like an emotional affair. But do you think she would have got away with it if it were not for the Culpepper stuff?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Possibly. I think that Catherine wasn't smart enough to recognize. Maybe not smart enough is a bit cruel and a bit unfair.

[Kate Lister]

But she's very young. She's too naive.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Naive. That's the, that's the best way of describing it. Yeah, I think she was too naive to recognize that actually if she had admitted to Henry all of this stuff that had gone on prior to their marriage, then she probably could have saved her life because it wasn't illegal to do any of that. And her marriage to Henry would have just been able to have been annulled, perhaps because she'd had these relationships with men prior. But I think Catherine was so panicked and distressed, she didn't have anyone to advise her. Unfortunately, everything came tumbling out, everything got beyond her control and she just couldn't get a grip on what she was saying and what she was telling to who at any given time.

[Kate Lister]

So how did Henry react to this then? And whose job was it to actually sit him down and go, oh, we've got some news for you.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Yeah, I mean, that was left to poor Thomas Cranmer and he was so worried about doing it face to face that he wrote the news of Catherine's misconduct in a note that he left in the chapel for Henry to find God. I mean, yeah, that. Poor Henry, I have to say, poor Henry, by this point, because he was genuinely, really besotted by Catherine. So I feel sorry for him from that perspective, because he really loved her. Everything before and after that. No, absolutely. He's got no sympathy, but he was totally heartbroken because he really, genuinely believed Catherine was his rose without a thorn. He really thought that she was the wife who wasn't going to let him down, who would comfort him in his old age, who he also really fancied. So he was devastated and he refused to see Catherine, which really distressed her. But he. I think that this was a tactic because Henry knew that if he saw Catherine and gave her an opportunity to try and explain face to face, probably his attitude towards her would soften. And I think he was too worried by that. He knew that she still had this really strong physical and emotional pull on him.

[Kate Lister]

The news has been broken. It's all gone tits up. Where is Catherine at this point? Is she in the Tower yet?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

No, she's not in the Tower. So, to begin with, she was kept in her rooms at Hampton Court and then she was taken to Sion House, or Sion Abbey, as it was then, on what was then the outskirts of London. And there she was kept whilst investigations were carried out, whilst Cranmer continued to dig into her life. And it's only in February 1542 that she is taken to the Tower of London. And by that point, I think she pretty much knew what was coming.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, God. Did she have a trial? Was there. Was there a trial?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

No, she didn't have a trial. There was no chance. Yeah, exactly. No chance to publicly defend herself. And what could she say? In any case, by that point, she'd all of the details of her life before Henry and post Henry with Thomas Culpepper had already come spilling out. So, no, she wasn't given a trial by this point. Also, Culpepper and Dereham had both been executed as traitors.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, God.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

So it's not looking great for Catherine.

[Kate Lister]

Were they tortured as well into confessing?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

There's some suggestion that that may have happened in Frances Dereham's case. Not Culpeppers, that. Yeah, possibly with Dereham, that that may have happened. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

So she's in the tower when they get executed. I can't even imagine what this, what kid is going through at this point. But when she told when her execution will be, does somebody just come and just say we found you guilty?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

That's pretty much what happens, yeah, is that she's told she's got to prepare herself for her execution. And Catherine at that point seems to compose herself. She's been really distressed, really upset up this point and has really struggled to hold it together. But at this point, when she realizes that she probably is going to die, she asks for the block to be brought to her rooms so that she can prepare for her execution in private and prepare to make a good end. So I mean that's just. How do you get to that point where you realize that you're probably still a teenager and you're gonna die by having your head chopped off? It says something about her strength of character at this point. I suppose that she decided that if she was gonna die, she wanted to make a good end.

[Kate Lister]

And did she? What was her execution like? We know that Anne Boleyn, as a favor to her, Henry hired a French executioner with a sword. But no such luck this time.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

No, none of that for Catherine. She instead is executed with an ax. And like Anne Boleyn, she's executed in the same spot as Anne Boleyn. So she's granted the relative favour of a private execution within the confines of the Tower of London. So the London crowds aren't there to jeer at her. But there are probably a huge number of other people who have been part of Henry's court who come along to watch her die. We are told that she does make a good end. She doesn't say very much, she looks quite weak at this point and who can blame her? But she does make a relatively good end. A brave end.

[Kate Lister]

Was it? Lady Rochester was executed immediately afterwards.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Lady Rochford? Yeah, that's right, Lady Rochford. So she had been the one who had been aiding and helping Catherine with her meetings with Thomas Culpepper. So she is executed immediately after Catherine.

[Kate Lister]

Could you even imagine? I mean the whole thing is so grim. But like watching your mate have the red cut off and waiting for your turn, it's so barbaric, it's terrible.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

But it's a weird one because Lady Rochford's motivations for getting herself involved in the first place are really questionable.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. What on earth? What on earth was she doing?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

It's weird, isn't it? She's seen her sister in law, Anne Boleyn and her own husband executed. Why would you partake in that? It's really weird.

[Kate Lister]

I don't know. And what happened to Catherine's body? Was she buried somewhere nice or just, you know, chucked in the bin?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Well, she's buried near to her cousin Anne Boleyn in the Chapel of St Peter in the Tower of London. So. As was Lady Rochford. So they're both there to this day. Two queens buried between two dukes in the chapel there.

[Kate Lister]

And how did Henry react to this on the day that she. I'm going to assume that he wasn't there for the execution.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

No, he wasn't there for the execution and we don't really know a great deal about how he reacts. I think he is greatly saddened by the whole affair and how things have transpired and finds himself really depressed by the loss of his fifth wife. Having shown her so much love and adoration, I think he finds this quite a blow.

[Kate Lister]

And Catherine's one of the wives that her ghost is said to haunt certain places, isn't it?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Yeah. So there is a story that her ghost haunts the so called haunted gallery at Hampton Court. And the story goes that when the news of Catherine's infidelity all came to light at Hampton Court, that Catherine was desperate to reach Henry and so ran down this gallery in an attempt to find him. And she nearly succeeded before Henry's guards dragged her back kicking and screaming. And it's these screams that can reportedly been heard. I have to say, unfortunately, that is definitely a myth. We know that that didn't happen. But she does reportedly haunt the haunted gallery and also the tower. So these two places that are so poignantly associated with her fall and her end. Catherine's spirit supposedly returns to this day to remind us of those times in her life.

[Kate Lister]

A final question, and it's a bit of a tricky one because we're looking at it from a modern perspective. But do you think that what happened to her was fair? Do you think she was guilty as charged?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

I'm gonna say no, because she was just a poor, naive girl. I think that if any of Henry's wives are deserving of sympathy and we should be saying, oh, poor so and so. I really think it's Catherine because she was so young and she was thrust into the spotlight in circumstances that she probably didn't really want to be thrown into. I mean, yeah, I think that she was given a really, really tough time and there was a lot of pressure and expectations set upon her. And I think that when you're that young, when you haven't really had anyone to guide you, you're gonna make mistakes.

[Kate Lister]

And you didn't know you were gonna be queen. That was never part of the deal.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

That was never part of the deal. So I think that unfortunately Catherine was a victim and it's just sad that she had to pay the price with her head.

[Kate Lister]

I do feel very sorry for Catherine, I really do. I think that she was stitched up and the fact that she wasn't given a trial and there was no one there to defend her and she was quite clearly just a kid that was terrified and very confused and probably looked at his other wives and thought, well, they just did what he wanted, so if I do it too, I'll be okay. So she just said what she thought they wanted to hear and it all went horrendously wrong. Poor Catherine.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Very sad.

[Kate Lister]

Up next, we've got Catherine Parr. You must have been looking at this absolute shit show and just thinking, what on earth? So is she even on the scene at this point?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Catherine isn't on the scene at this point because she herself is married off elsewhere. So that doesn't happen until later. She doesn't come around until a year or so, a bit more after Catherine Howard's execution.

[Kate Lister]

And if you wanna know more about her, then you're gonna have to tune into the next episode. But Nicola, you have been fascinating as you always are. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

They can follow me on my social media platforms which are X Instagram and TikTok and threads actually, and they can also have a look at my website, nicoletalis.com thank you so much.

[Kate Lister]

I will see you next time. And for now, Team Catherine, thank you for listening and thank you so much to Nicola for joining me. And if you like what you heard, well then don't forget to like review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you want us to explore a subject or maybe you just fancied saying hi, then you can email us@betwixt historyhit.com Coming next week, we have got the sixth and final episode in our limited series, all about the rather distinguished Catherine Parr, as well as an episode on exploring medieval women, their achievements and and what they smelled like. This podcast was edited by Tom Delaghi and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the sheets. The history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic sound so good, so good, so good.

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