← Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Catherine of Aragon | Secret Lives of the Six Wives
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- [00:00]
Kate Lister
Hi, I'm your host Kate Lister. If you would like Betwixt the Sheets ad free and get early access, Sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every single week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe. Thanks for listening to Betwixt the Sheets. To get all History Hit podcasts ad free early access and bonus episodes, head over to historyhit.com subscribe or you can sign up on Apple Podcasts with just.
- [00:42]
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- [01:27]
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- [02:05]
Kate Lister
Being a Tudor queen was very difficult. I mean, you got jewels and nice things, but wow was strict. And if you were one of Henry VIII's wives, well then the rules just meant doing exactly what he said, bending to every whim and desire, no matter how harebrained or deranged. But as history tells us, that didn't always go to plan. The women in Henry VIII's life were smart.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
She was a woman who had her own voice and wasn't afraid to use it.
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Kate Lister
Powerful.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
She wanted to Henry the dead king's body as like a war trophy and rebellious. She was a definite seductress who knew exactly how to play Henry, but they.
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Kate Lister
Could also be naive.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
She is well Aware that there is someone trying to get to the bottom of her previous life, and she slips up.
- [03:04]
Kate Lister
And downright unlucky.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
I think that there was no way that her life was ever going to be saved.
- [03:10]
Kate Lister
Who were these women that entered the volatile world of the Tudor court? They're known for their fates. Divorced, beheaded, died. Divorced, beheaded, survived. But we're finding out who these six women really were and why there is so much more to them than just their husband. A fat, ginger serial killer with an oversized codpiece and a penchant for jousting. Join me in this miniseries as we explore the secret lives of the six wives.
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Ryan Reynolds
What do you look for?
- [03:49]
Kate Lister
A man.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
Oh, money, of course.
- [03:52]
Kate Lister
You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing a button. Era now. Era. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
Goodness.
- [04:09]
Kate Lister
What a beautiful dance. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Dearing. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kayla Stack. Catherine of Aragon, the first of Henry's six wives, was never meant to be his queen. Although, to be completely fair, Henry was never meant to be king. In the first part of our limited series, we explore how England's history dramatically changed because of a family tragedy. We will find out how this Spanish woman took to life in the English Tudor court with a man and husband she really didn't know all that well. We'll explore what her legacy was, how she dared to stand up to Henry's deranged plan to ditch her for Anne Boleyn, and why doctors think they found evidence that she really did die of a broken heart. Helping us find out more about this incredible woman, and in fact, all the women in this miniseries, is the marvelous Dr. Nicola Talis, a Tudor expert. Without further ado, let's get into it. Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Nicola Tallis. How are you doing?
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Dr. Nicola Talis
I'm marvelous, Kate. How are you?
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Kate Lister
Well, I'm thrilled that you're here because this is the first installment in our new miniseries on the wives of Henry viii. Trying to push past what we think we know about them and getting into the real person. And we're kicking off today, obviously. Who else could we have kicked off with but Catherine of Aragon?
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Dr. Nicola Talis
Can't wait to talk to you more about her. She's a fascinating character.
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Kate Lister
When people think about Catherine of Aragon in the public consciousness, what do you think her reputation is? Not what you know as a Historian. But how she's generally thought of.
- [05:59]
Dr. Nicola Talis
I think people tend to think of her as the wife who was really hard done by as, you know, the one who. Henry. Henry basically just discarded when he had enough of her and she hadn't given him the son. So I think that there's a lot of public sympathy for Catherine.
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Kate Lister
Poor Catherine.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
Yeah, poor Catherine. And I actually don't think that that really does her any favors because, you know, she was a strong woman and I think that we should celebrate that and really kind of, you know, highlight that that she was an extraordinary woman in her time. Yes, Henry didn't treat her well. We know that he didn' treat any of his wives well. So she's not extraordinary in that sense. But I think also she does have the accolade of being the longest serving wife as well.
- [06:50]
Kate Lister
Yes, she hung in there, didn't she?
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Dr. Nicola Talis
She really did. She was not going down without a fight. So I think that there's a lot to say about her in terms of her strength of character as well.
- [07:00]
Kate Lister
She does have this sort of reputation of like, oh, the one that was somehow worse done by, but that's probably not entirely true. I mean, others, you know, they lost their heads, but she is kind of like this, sort of like, oh, poor Catherine, poor Catherine. But maybe you could give us a bit of a reappraisal of her character as we're going along and sort of frame that more as actually she was a fighter right until the end of this.
- [07:25]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Yeah, absolutely. I think that Catherine was a bit of a badass. So I think that I really do. Like you said, all of these wives had a hard time in some ways, and it depends how you define having a hard time. I mean, is being sent to a series of damp and uncomfortable houses in the way Catherine was worse than having your head cut off. I don't know, arguable. But I think that Catherine, you know, she did have agency. She did, in lots of respects, have a lot of control over her own life. And, yeah, she definitely deserves to be celebrated rather than pitied. I think.
- [08:06]
Kate Lister
I think I'm going to agree with you on that one. So let's take it back to Catherine's origin story, because she didn't just turn up and materialise moping around Henry's court, did she? Where was she from? Because her regal credentials are pretty impressive.
- [08:21]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Yeah, absolutely. They are really impressive. And Catherine was born in Spain. She was born in December 1485, so just a couple of months after the Tudor dynasty in England have established itself. And she was born to the most powerful couple in Europe, Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castile. So she was born into a hugely powerful royal dynasty with parents who were extraordinary in their own right, and, you know, a mother in the form of Isabella of Castile, who co ruled with her husband, who knew what it was to experience power. So she comes from a very, very important background, not only in terms of her lineage, but also in terms of seeing what it's like firsthand to have a woman bearing power in her own name.
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Kate Lister
What was her childhood like, do you think? I mean, I know it's gonna be any royal childhood is gonna be a bit weird. And childhood in the 15th 16th century is not gentle parenting, I don't think was a thing back then. But what kind of childhood do you think that she had? Was it happy? Was it an idealistic thing?
- [09:40]
Dr. Nicola Talis
It was quite extraordinary, actually, because at the time that Catherine was born, her parents were engaged in war. They were busy trying to drive the Moors out of Spain. And this was something that was going on for the first few years of Catherine's life, and her mother was very much a part of this campaign. There was no stability in terms of there being one home. Isabella of Castile traveled around with her army and she took her children with her. So Catherine was the youngest of five siblings and she travelled with her mother, who was really keen to keep a close eye on her children and supervise their education. So it's quite an extraordinary environment in which Catherine's raised and she's also given a really good education. That's quite unusual for girls at this time in so much that she is schooled in all of the things that girls are expected to be good at, household management, dancing, all of that sort of thing. But she also, very interestingly, at her mother's instigation, learns Latin as well, which is the language of diplomacy. That's something that usually only boys are educated in.
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Kate Lister
Interesting.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
Yeah, very interesting. So it's quite clear that she learns some very valuable lessons early on from her mother, and that her mother considers her to be more than just a girl who could be pawned off for political advantage.
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Kate Lister
Do we know what she looked like, Catherine of Aragon? Was she a looker?
- [11:19]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Well, I don't know if she was necessarily a looker. She was very pleasant looking in so much that she had auburn hair, she had fair skin, she dressed very well, she was not particularly tall. But we do have some surviving portraits of her which show her to be not unattractive. But I don't think that there was anything particularly striking about Her.
- [11:46]
Kate Lister
Interesting. Apart from the fact that, you know, she's a princess, which would make anyone more attractive.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
Well, that's true also. Yes.
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Kate Lister
The thing we often forget about Catherine is that she was never supposed to marry Henry. That was, that was a weird twist of fate. She was supposed to marry Arthur. We should have had a King Arthur. And she was betrothed to him from a very young age, wasn't she?
- [12:10]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Yeah, that's right. She is betrothed to Arthur, who is the eldest son and heir of Henry VII and she comes to England to marry him in 1501.
- [12:23]
Kate Lister
And she's only 16, isn't she? She's a little baby person.
- [12:26]
Dr. Nicola Talis
That's right, yeah, she's young. But this is really kind of the usual age at which girls were married in this period. So actually 12 is the legal age at which the church say a woman or a girl I know can cohabit with her husband. And that's exactly what happens with the example of Henry VII's mother, Lady Margaret Beaufort, who Catherine would have known Arthur's grandmother. And 14 is prescribed for boys. But obviously, I mean this is something that in the modern day it's completely horrific and actually even by Tudor standards people thought the same thing.
- [13:06]
Kate Lister
It's just so weird when you think about like entire destinies of countries and the kingdoms as we know it is sort of rested on the shoulders of teenagers. I think like what I was like at 16, I wasn't somebody. You wouldn't have trusted me to run a bath, let alone a country.
- [13:25]
Dr. Nicola Talis
No, I know I would have been exactly the same. And I think, I mean, yeah, 16th century concepts of maturity were different, but yeah, totally. I mean, yeah, it's a big responsibility. There's a lot of expectation and particularly when you consider, I mean this marriage of Catherine and Arthur's was, was really, really important. It was particularly important in England because the Tudor dynasty was so newly established. So to be able to make an alliance with a dynasty that were as important and as powerful as the Spanish. Yeah, it's a huge deal, it's really important. So there's a lot of money being spent on the celebrations for this marriage as well. It's like a real display of public and everyone's getting involved in it, so everyone has a stake in it, I guess.
- [14:16]
Kate Lister
So little 16 year old Catherine comes over like think about the upheaval of that. I know that she always knew she was going to come over here because they were married betrothed from day dot, but up in sticks, leaving everything behind and you know, the only way you can keep in contact with them is by letter once in a while, like you're leaving everything behind to come to sunny old England and get married to someone you've never seen before.
- [14:41]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Yeah, exactly. It is. It's a really big deal. But Catherine would have known from a very, very early age that that was what was expected of her. She was expected to be obedient to her parents, and she was expected to do her duty to her country. And that was a really crucial part of it, was marrying and being able to represent your country as well. And we know Catherine's Spanish heritage. It really, really mattered to her throughout her life. And we see this in the adoption of her symbol, which is the pomegranate badge. And we see that even today, even long after her death, we still see that in Tudor palaces, for example. It's a really, really important part of her identity, and it's something that she really continues to be proud of throughout her life, is at these Spanish roots. But, yeah, she would have known that her destiny was to become Queen of England.
- [15:41]
Kate Lister
The other thing that we should say that she was very, very into is religion. Like, she was a very devout young lady. Like, everybody was into religion at this point. It was. It was wildly popular. But she was particularly a devout Catholic, wasn't she?
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Dr. Nicola Talis
Oh, yes. Catherine was seriously, seriously pious. And it's quite interesting, actually, when we look at some of Catherine's surviving portraits, we see that a lot of her jewelry was religiously themed. And I think that that tells us a lot about her personally, because, yes, all queens were expected to be religious, they're expected to be pious. But I think Catherine really went beyond the bounds of what was expected. And I think that it's really clear that her faith was just such an important part of her very being and her very existence. And it's really interesting the way that she also uses her jewels to really highlight that.
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Kate Lister
I bet she did. I mean, you're the queen, you're gonna show off your bling any way you can, won't you? Now we've got to one of the sort of the key cruxes of Catherine's life. She's here, she's married Arthur. She's 16. How old's he? He's not much. He's around about the same age, isn't he?
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Dr. Nicola Talis
Yeah, he's just a year younger.
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Kate Lister
Yeah. It's not like he's 34 or anything. Gross. No, they're sort of the same age.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
Yeah, exactly. They are, yeah.
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Kate Lister
And then they're married for a couple of months and Arthur very, very, very sadly dies unexpectedly. Oh, it's really sad. But now we get to the crux of it. Catherine claims the marriage was never consummated.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
Yes.
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Kate Lister
Nicola, what is your take on this? What was going on? Two teenagers left alone together, knowing that the fate of nations rests on their shoulders and they would have been told to go forth and procreate. And she's saying nothing happened.
- [17:34]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Yeah, I know it sounds kind of dodgy when you put it like that, but I genuinely think. I think she was actually telling the truth. I think probably nothing happened. I think that the only reason that it didn't happen is because Arthur was not the most physically robust.
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Kate Lister
Interesting.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
He was quite sickly. And I think that basically he decided that he wasn't quite up to the task to begin with.
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Kate Lister
Okay.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
I think that that's what happened. And I think that they kind of thought, well, we're teenagers, maybe we've got all the time in the world.
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Kate Lister
When you think as well that they're 15 and 16, that maybe slightly puts a different complexion on it is they are kind of, you know, everyone's fumbling and awkward. No one knows what the hell they're doing at that particular point. Maybe, maybe he did. Maybe he just. He was working his way up to it. I don't know.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
Yeah, I mean, maybe there's that as well. Like, we don't know. But I. My suspicion is that Catherine was actually telling the truth. She didn't really. Okay, yes, she did have a reason to lie, but I really don't think that she did.
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Kate Lister
Millions of reasons to lie.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
Well, she did. Yeah, she did. It's true. There's no denying that. But I think also it is quite important to point out, like we've talked about the fact that she was really religious, really religious. You know, she swears that this hasn't happened. So I think that, you know, there's no reason to suspect really that she was lying, I don't think.
- [19:09]
Kate Lister
Why is this important? Why was there a sudden interest in whether or not this marriage was consummated?
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Dr. Nicola Talis
Well, it becomes important when Catherine is betrothed to Arthur's brother Henry, who she does, of course, then eventually go on to marry. And at the time of the marriage, it doesn't seem that important at all. Henry's more than happy to marry Catherine, but then it becomes an issue later when he has an eye on someone else.
- [19:40]
Kate Lister
It's a biblical thing, isn't it? It's like, thou shalt not covet thy brother's ass or something. Whatever it is.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's Leviticus, which, not exactly that. You're very close. It basically says that he who uncovers his brother's nakedness shall be childless. Oh, so right.
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Kate Lister
Okay.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
It's quite damning. And at this point, when it becomes an issue. Catherine and Henry have had six children together, but only one of these, Mary, has survived. So in Henry's opinion, he may as well have been childless, because what good is a girl? He wants a boy. Mary's useless.
- [20:29]
Kate Lister
I'll be back with Nicola and Catherine after this short break.
- [20:41]
Dr. Nicola Talis
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Kate Lister
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- [22:16]
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- [22:56]
Kate Lister
So they get married, they're very young and the thing we need to remember at this point is Henry's quite a hunk. He's all sporty and running around and he's very tall and muscly and likes wrestling. And he's a catch.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
Oh, he definitely is. People are talking about the fact that he's the most handsome king in Christendom. They talk about his fantastic physique. He's very fit from jousting. So he really was kind of the equivalent of a 16th century pin up.
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Kate Lister
Yeah, I mean, Catherine must have been. I mean, it must have been a bit of an odd transition period where she's like, oh, I've married Arthur. Shit, he's dead now, what on earth do I do? And now, okay, all right, I'll marry the super handsome brother. All right. I mean, it is a bit weird looking back on it, but that's what they did. Was this a happy marriage? I know it wasn't by the end of it, but in the beginning, in.
- [23:48]
Dr. Nicola Talis
The beginning, yeah, it was, it was very happy. Catherine absolutely doted on Henry and I think that he did genuinely. I. She didn't know what was to come, bless her. But Henry also genuinely seems to have loved her as well. And, you know, we see for example, that during the numerous tournaments that are staged during Henry's reign, their initials are intertwined and there's every sign of sort of courtly love there. And Henry absolutely adoring his wife. He buys her lots of gifts. Catherine travels with Henry. As I say, they do have children together, so it's clear that they liked each other in some form. And it all seems to be going quite well up until a certain point. And actually Catherine even did the really important thing, which is turning a blind eye to her husband's infidelities.
- [24:45]
Kate Lister
Yeah, that's the unspoken rule of this, isn't it? Is just like, look, you've got jewels and you've got your palaces and unfortunately he is going to put it around a bit. But don't worry, you are the queen. He also gave her quite a lot of power. I hadn't realized that until quite recently. She wasn't just sat around sewing and doing pretty things. She was in there. She was political.
- [25:06]
Dr. Nicola Talis
That's right, yes, she was. She was regent of England in 1513 when Henry impressed. Yeah, very, very impressive. I mean, that says a lot about Henry's faith in Catherine and her abilities. The fact that he's prepared to allow his wife to rule his kingdom in his absence, like, that's real trust there.
- [25:28]
Kate Lister
My dad won't let my mum go into his shed, like, let alone. Let alone run a country.
- [25:36]
Dr. Nicola Talis
My God. I mean, to be fair, like, Catherine does have advisors around her as well. So I suppose, yeah, she's the figurehead, but there are other people there to support her in that as well. But I also think, you know, this is kind of a role that Catherine's been in training for all of her life in lots of ways, because she's seen her mother's done it before her.
- [25:57]
Kate Lister
Even if she's had got advisors around her and even if Henry was going, all right, listen, lads, I've put her in charge, but, you know, keep an eye on her. He wouldn't have done that if there was any chance that she was going to embarrass him or do something silly or say something if he didn't think that she was able to handle that. I think that shows an enormous amount of respect, definitely.
- [26:17]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Yeah, it definitely does. And it's clear Catherine also, I think, wanted to do a good job. And she does do a good job. I mean, basically, whilst Henry's away, England beat the Scots at the Battle of Flodden in September 1513, during which James IV of Scotland is killed. And Catherine writes Henry this really proud letter in which she talks about the success of England against the Scots. And she even says. Which I think is quite bloody, but, you know, she says that she wanted to send Henry the dead king's body as like. Yeah, I know, it's quite, quite intense, isn't it? But she says, she says, she says, oh, our English men's hearts wouldn't suffer it. So instead, I'm sending you his coat. So.
- [27:09]
Kate Lister
Wow.
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Dr. Nicola Talis
I mean, she wasn't squeamish.
- [27:12]
Kate Lister
No, she wasn't, was she? And the other thing that I hadn't. I knew that there'd been miscarriages and babies dying. I hadn't quite realized that some of them had lived for a few months. Which just makes it all the more tragic, doesn't it?
- [27:25]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Yeah. So there is a son who's born in 1511, so a couple of years after Henry becomes king, and he's called Henry Duke of Cornwall. And it seems like very early on, Catherine's done her duty, she's done what's expected. She's provided the boy, job done. And then, sadly, when baby Henry's Just a couple of months old, he dies and Catherine is back to square one, effectively. So it's really sad.
- [27:59]
Kate Lister
When do things start to go tits up, do you think? Because it was a long marriage, 24 years.
- [28:05]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Yeah, it was a long marriage. And I guess the catalyst is the arrival of Anne Boleyn on the scene. And she arrives at the English court in the early 1520s. But it's not until 1526 that Henry really begins to take a close interest in her. And then by the following year, proceedings to have his marriage to Catherine annulled begin. And it's really the beginning of the end for Catherine in many ways.
- [28:36]
Kate Lister
I wonder if she saw it coming. I mean, she mustn't. He'll have had mistresses. And presumably when Anne Boleyn turned up, she'll just thought, he'll get bored of this one as well. He always does. She can't have seen this coming, can she?
- [28:48]
Dr. Nicola Talis
No, no, I don't think so at all. And there's no precedent for an English king having done this, having tried to remove his wife and replace her with a mistress. There's just. I mean, Anne Boleyn, let's not forget Anne Boleyn is a commoner by comparison to Catherine. We've only had one commoner become Queen of England before, which is Henry VIII's grandfather, Edward IV. And he didn't have another foreign wife to dispose of beforehand.
- [29:22]
Kate Lister
She must have been seething. She must have absolutely, like, raging.
- [29:27]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Yeah, it's a really, really awful situation for her. And I think it's at this point, again, that we really see her strength of character coming through, because she just wasn't prepared to let this happen. She believed that it was her divine right to be Henry's queen and by his side. And she wasn't going to stand aside just because Henry said, oh, I'm having doubts. And this is when the whole thing with Arthur kind of rears its head again. And that's used as an excuse to try and push Catherine into the background. And that's literally when, you know, her dirty laundry is aired. And, yeah, the whole. Did they, didn't they, with Arthur becomes a big thing again.
- [30:12]
Kate Lister
You do feel for her, but then she. To, like, reframe it a bit more. She absolutely fought him tooth and nails to the point where, like, she was writing to the Pope going, don't grant him a divorce, don't do this. And when you think as well, it's not only the indignity of it, she's the queen and there's this upstart who's, you know, moving in on her territory, but there's the religious aspect to it as well. Not only does she fervently believe that she's supposed to be Henry's wife by God, but he's planning on, you know, abandoning the Catholic Church. She must have been beside herself.
- [30:45]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Yeah, absolutely. So she was really concerned for Henry's immortal soul as well. She felt that he was going to be damning himself. So she is not just being stubborn, she is genuinely concerned on a religious level. And as I say, she believed that God had ordained her in her place as Queen of England. And, you know, that was her role, that was her responsibility, was to be Henry's wife and to be his supporter as well in terms of religion. So there was no way that Catherine was going to just give this up. And she also, of course, had the interests of her daughter Mary to consider at this point as well. And she's not just going to give that up just because Henry wants to have a bit of Anne Boleyn.
- [31:40]
Kate Lister
I'll be back with Nicola and Catherine after this short break. Thanks for listening to Betwixt the Sheets. To get all history hit podcasts ad free early access and bonus episodes, head over to historyhit.com subscribe or you can sign up on Apple Podcasts with just one click.
- [32:08]
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- [32:32]
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- [32:37]
Dr. Nicola Talis
C details.
- [32:45]
Kate Lister
And Henry did offer her a number of sweet deals which what it all boiled down to basically was like if you just fuck off and then go live quietly somewhere else, I'll give you like the best lifestyle ever. And she steadfastly refuses it. Would you have taken that deal? I might have taken that deal.
- [33:04]
Dr. Nicola Talis
I think I might have to be fair. Yeah, yeah. I think if someone was gonna. I mean, because when what actually happens that eventually Henry separates from her permanently and she's never allowed to see her child again. So she's sent off to these series of really dank, horrible Houses in the country. So, yeah, I think if I'd known that that was going to happen, I'd have just given in.
- [33:30]
Kate Lister
Do you remember, it might have been before your time, but a few years ago, when Brad Pitt was messing around with Angelina Jolie and there were those T shirts that said Team Aniston and Team Jolie. If you'd gone back to the Tudor court at this particular point, was there, like, a sense of Team Catherine and Team Boleyn? Was it the same kind of like. And whose side were people on? Like, in the public appreciation of any of this?
- [33:55]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Yeah, I mean, I definitely have been a Team Catherine, but everyone was.
- [34:00]
Kate Lister
Was. I mean, was anyone Team Boleyn?
- [34:03]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Well, there were a few Team Boleyns. Those were the social climbers who were the Team Boleyns, you know, her family. Not many other people, to be honest. Public sympathy was very much with Catherine. She was adored. She was the people's princess. I often kind of liken it, actually, to people who loved Princess Diana. I think about it like that, like Catherine of Aragon in that way. I think people were distraught to see her being treated in this way and discarded for Anne Boleyn, who was viewed as being a whore. And I think that, you know, there was a lot of sympathy for Mary as well, and the way that she was being treated, being separated from her mother. So although there were people at court who were outwardly Berlin supporters, I think that that was more a show of just being terrified of the King. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Knowing that maybe you valued your head a bit more than your principles at.
- [35:05]
Kate Lister
That point, you've got to admire that. That she. Absolutely. Even though it meant that she was living in the Tudor equivalent of a Travelodge for the rest of her life. And what happens to poor old Catherine? Because Henry's swanned off with Amberlyn, he's broken from Rome. He's got what he wanted. And we'll talk about Amberlyn in the next episode. What happens to Catherine in the end? How does she eke out her last few years?
- [35:30]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Well, it's really sad because in her last few years, she still refuses to accept the invalidity of her marriage. So in 1533, at this point, Henry has separated from the Roman Catholic Church. So he has removed papal authority in England. He's now the head of the church. And with that, Catherine's marriage is declared null and void. And that is a judgment that Catherine utterly refuses to accept.
- [36:02]
Kate Lister
It's gone a bit mishaversham, hasn't it, really?
- [36:04]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Oh, it literally has, like, to her dying breast. Catherine refuses to accept that she's not Henry's wife. And it's quite sad, really. Like, she continues to send him gifts, which he sends back, doesn't want them.
- [36:18]
Kate Lister
My heart, Catherine. Oh, no, I know.
- [36:22]
Dr. Nicola Talis
And her health, we see declining because of the circumstances that she's forced to live in and the neglect that she faces. And. And at the beginning of 1536, she's living at Kimbolton Castle in Cambridgeshire, and at this point, she's gravely ill. She writes her will and she also writes a letter to Henry in which she says, be a dickhead.
- [36:49]
Kate Lister
Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh.
- [36:50]
Dr. Nicola Talis
No, I mean, if only, if only. This is the point when you really wanna shake her, because she actually says, like, my eyes desire you above all other things. And it's like, no, come on, Catherine, look at what he's done.
- [37:04]
Kate Lister
You sort of feel. There is a bit of a point, isn't it, where it's like she sort of sat in these old crumbly ruins, still desperately going, no, I am his wife. I am his wife.
- [37:13]
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- [37:13]
Kate Lister
None of this has happened. Like, if you were her mate, you'd be sort of sitting down going, catherine, I think we need to let this go now.
- [37:20]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Yeah, Seriously, I think. Do you know what I mean? She's got kind of just a handful of people looking after her at this point, and she refuses to be addressed by anything other than Queen. And I don't know, I kind of think to myself, oh, yeah, even they must have been thinking, come on now, let's just. Let's drop this, yeah?
- [37:41]
Kate Lister
Like, maybe write to the King and go, all right, I'm not the Queen, but can I have a nice place to live? But she doesn't. And maybe that is a measure of her character.
- [37:49]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Definitely. Yeah. I mean, I think it's often been sort of said that Catherine was just being really stubborn, but it's so much more than that. It is really, really clear that her sense of duty and her belief that she was Queen of England was ingrained in her very being. And she had such a strong sense of pride in who she was and where she'd come from. Why should she back away from that and deny everything that she's been raised thinking and believing and doing?
- [38:21]
Kate Lister
Yeah. Do we know what she died of?
- [38:24]
Dr. Nicola Talis
We don't know for sure. But what's very interesting is that after her death, when Catherine's autopsy was done, this black growth was found attached to her heart.
- [38:37]
Kate Lister
Wow.
- [38:37]
Dr. Nicola Talis
And so, yeah, I know it's really interesting, and it's been suggested that, I mean, to modern day eyes that this was cancer. But in the 16th century, a black growth on the heart could only mean one thing. You've been poisoned. And that seemed to fit with everything that seemed to have happened in Catherine's life in those last few years, that she was basically that they were trying to dispose of her. It's very unlikely that she was poisoned, but 16th century, more superstitious, poor old.
- [39:11]
Kate Lister
No, I don't want to say poor old Catherine. We're trying to move away from that. As a final question, what do you think Catherine's legacy was? Because if you could sit that woman down, she would, I'm sure she would be fuming if she thought her legacy was just that she got dumped by the king, she'd be well pissed off at that. What, what do you think her legacy is?
- [39:29]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Well, I think that she really set the precedent for strong women ruling in England. Yeah, because we talked about that, the fact that she rules England on Henry's behalf whilst he's in France. And of course, it's her daughter Mary and then Elizabeth, the first two, who are really the first queens to rule in their own right. But I think that that example has been set by Catherine earlier and that she was a woman who had her own voice and wasn't afraid to use it.
- [40:00]
Kate Lister
I love that. Nicola, you have been marvelous to torture and I think that Catherine would have been very pleased with the things that you were saying about her. Maybe me less so. But if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?
- [40:12]
Dr. Nicola Talis
They can follow me on my social media platforms. I'm on X Instagram threads and TikTok and they can check out my website, which is nicolatalis.com wonderful.
- [40:26]
Kate Lister
Thank you so much. And I'll see you next time for a discussion around Anne Boleyn.
- [40:30]
Dr. Nicola Talis
Can't wait.
- [40:35]
Kate Lister
Thank you for listening and thanks so much to Nicola for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us@betwixtisthistoryhit.com We've got episodes on women gladiators coming your way as well as the second part in this limited series which is coming next week. And that is all about, of course, Amberlynn. This podcast was edited by Tom Delagi and produced by Stuart at Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join Me Again Betwixt the Sheets the History of Sex Scandal in Society, A podcast by History hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.
- [41:25]
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