Could You Survive Medieval Childbirth?

Summary

Could You Survive Medieval Childbirth?

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Host: Kate Lister
Co-Host: Eleanor Yarniger
Release Date: June 3, 2025

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Introduction: A Grim Journey into the Past

In the latest episode of Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society, host Kate Lister delves into the harrowing realities of medieval childbirth. Joined by Eleanor Yarniger, co-host of the sister podcast Gone Medieval, Kate explores the intricate and often perilous processes women endured when bringing new life into the world during the Middle Ages.

The Harsh Realities of Medieval Childbirth

Kate opens the discussion by emphasizing the extreme dangers associated with childbirth in medieval times. “[Childbirth was] tearing, vaginas hemorrhaging, rupturing, all kinds of awfulness. But in the medieval period, it was extra awful” (02:24). The conversation quickly sets a somber tone, highlighting that childbirth was not just a natural process but a life-threatening ordeal for both mother and child.

Role and Reverence of Midwives

A central focus of the episode is the indispensable role of midwives in medieval society. Eleanor explains, “These women form a backbone of their community… they are delivering babies, but they're also doing generalized health care for the community” (11:01). Midwives were highly respected figures, often trained through apprenticeship and passing down knowledge within families. They were the go-to experts for not only childbirth but also for treating common ailments, making them essential to everyday life.

Medical Practices and Techniques

The episode delves into the specific medical practices employed by medieval midwives. Without modern technology, midwives relied on a combination of herbal remedies and surgical interventions to assist during labor. Eleanor discusses how midwives attempted to prevent complications: “To avoid vaginal tearing… they will like oil you up” (24:44). Additionally, surgical procedures such as cesarean sections (“cesareans”) were performed only as a last resort, often only when the mother was unlikely to survive, primarily to ensure the baby could be baptized: “you get in there to get the baby to make sure that it is baptized so that it goes to heaven” (27:58).

High Risks and Mortality Rates

The dangers of medieval childbirth are underscored by the high mortality rates. Eleanor shares personal anecdotes, stating, “all of us either tried to kill our mother or almost died” (18:09). The risk extended beyond the act of giving birth itself to postnatal complications such as fistulas, which required further surgical intervention: “fistulas are super common as a result of problematic pregnancies” (38:09). The lack of antibiotics and antiseptics meant infections were often fatal, compounding the peril of childbirth.

Social and Religious Influences

Childbirth did not occur in isolation but was deeply intertwined with the social and religious fabric of the time. Eleanor highlights the lack of privacy, noting, “medieval people don't have privacy… you're going to be having your child at home” (07:28). The church played a significant role, not only in moral guidance but also in practical matters like baptism. The importance of baptism was so profound that swift action was taken to baptize newborns, even if it meant performing cesareans under grim circumstances to ensure the baby's salvation.

Midwives and the Shadow of Witchcraft

As the episode progresses, the conversation shifts to the dangerous intersection of midwifery and witchcraft in the early modern period. While midwives were revered, Eleanor explains, “more midwives end up getting persecuted as witches” (30:20). This persecution was often tied to religious and social upheavals, where midwives’ knowledge and practices were viewed with suspicion, especially when linked to abortion services. The staunch opposition to abortion led to midwives being scapegoated and branded as witches, marking a significant shift in their societal standing.

The Shift Towards Medicalization

The episode concludes by tracing the evolution of childbirth practices from community-centered midwifery to the medicalized, physician-dominated approach of the Enlightenment and beyond. Eleanor attributes this transformation to the Enlightenment’s emphasis on scientific rigor and the professionalization of medicine: “with the enlightenment, everyone is like, we're doing science now, guys” (39:49). This period saw the establishment of stricter qualifications for physicians, effectively sidelining midwives and altering the dynamics of childbirth care forever.

Legacy and Modern Reflections

Kate and Eleanor reflect on the lessons learned from medieval childbirth practices. While acknowledging the significant advancements in medical science, they caution against the over-medicalization of childbirth today. Eleanor emphasizes the enduring importance of midwives, stating, “call the midwife is a great program for a reason” (42:25). The episode serves as a reminder of the resilience of women throughout history and the critical roles they have played in the continuity of society despite immense challenges.

Notable Quotes

• Kate Lister: “If you sneak up behind the average woman in the street and just went... Medieval childbirth doesn’t have to be a medieval scholar or nothing” (05:11).
• Eleanor Yarniger: “These women form a backbone of their community… they are delivering babies, but they're also doing generalized health care for the community” (11:01).
• Kate Lister: “Every single mate I've had has had a baby. When I've actually asked that question, what was the birth like? They can't remember” (05:17).
• Eleanor Yarniger: “This is one of these circumstances where we just see a lot of chicks rocking… get out of here. Go make yourself useful” (29:32).
• Kate Lister: “You want to use gravity in your favor. So if you sit up and get on the chair, then that gravity is going to help draw the baby down” (22:23).

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Join the Conversation:
If you found this episode enlightening, subscribe to Betwixt The Sheets on your favorite podcast platform. Share your thoughts and questions by emailing us at [e-mail]. Stay tuned for our upcoming miniseries on the history of sex work, starting with Ancient Rome.

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This episode was expertly edited by Tom Delaghi and produced by Stuart Beckwith, with Charlotte Long as the senior producer. Special thanks to Epidemic Sound for the music.

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

Hi, I'm your host Kate Lister. If you would like Betwixt the Sheets ad free and get early access, sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every single week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe the new McCrispies trip is here.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

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[Kate Lister]

More Ranch and creamy chili McCrispy strip.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Dip now at McDonald's.

[Hannah]

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[Kate Lister]

Hello my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are listening to Betwixt the Sheets. But before we're allowed to go any further and this is my idea by the way, this is the lawyer's idea. But we have to tell you this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adult things in an adulty way covering a range of adult subjects. You should be an adult too, right? Do you feel safer? I feel safer. Certainly at the lawyer feel safer. Let's get on with it.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Foreign.

[Kate Lister]

I know we've already had the fair dues warning. But think of this as an extra layer of protection. A second pair of underpants, if you will. We are talking about childbirth, so you need to be thinking of tearing, vaginas, hemorrhaging, rupturing, all kinds of awfulness. But in the medieval period, the. So it's extra awful. Okay. And it's not for the faint hearted. I mean, not that childbirth ever was or is. But today we are pushing through the pain, peeking under the linens and asking, what was childbirth like in the Middle Ages?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

What do you look for in a man? Oh, money, of course.

[Kate Lister]

You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing a button.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

All right, now era Now.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, what a beautiful d. Goodness has nothing to do with it. During. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. While there is a lot of talk about the medicalization of childbirth today, what was the scientific thinking behind giving birth in the Middle Ages? Who was in the room with you? What room would you be in? What role did the church play in all of this? Because you can bet your bottom dollar that they had something to say. And what role did women have to play in these spaces? How was the midwife viewed at the time? Well, joining me today is the one and only Eleanor Yarniger, co host of our sister podcast Gone Medieval. And. And she is going to help us find out what it was like to give birth as a medieval woman. Hot towels at the ready, betwixters. Let's do this. Well, hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheeps. It's only Eleanor Yanagut. How are you doing?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Well, you know, anytime they let me out of the Gone Medieval dungeon, I'm delighted. So I'm doing great, Babs.

[Kate Lister]

Great. Welcome back to the Sunlight.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Thank you. Wow, you've got some here. What's that like?

[Kate Lister]

It's. Oh, it's very nice. Yeah. In the, in the bright. The bright world. We're not here to talk about such nonsense. We are here to talk about different nonsense. Medieval midwives, childbirth, all kinds of scary things.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, look, I mean, the vibes are kind of not great.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. If you say, if you sneak up behind the average woman in the street and just went. Medieval childbirth.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Oh, 100% right.

[Kate Lister]

Doesn't have to be a medieval scholar or nothing.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

No, you know, we know.

[Kate Lister]

We know things. Like what? Like even today, like my. One of my closest Mates. Jen recently had a baby. And, like, I was so supportive, but even I had moments when she was talking about things like vaginal tearing and stitching and episiotomies and just. And that's today, 2025.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah. You know, we have come a long way and I mean, yeah, we're going to talk about medieval childbirth, but I'm going to be so real with you babes. Like, if it's before the 20th century, I'm not interested. No, like, no, not like, I'm not even interested. But, you know, like, this is the thing. It's like all you got to do is like, study historical childbirth and you're like, you know, I'm good.

[Kate Lister]

Yep. No, no, it's really. It's a one way system. That's all.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

That's it. Just.

[Kate Lister]

God. But there are plenty of people listening who have had babies.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah. And like, God bless you.

[Kate Lister]

Well done. Thank you.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, thank you for your service. Braver than the troops, et cetera. So, yeah, like, it is one of those things where if you consider how difficult and painful and frankly, dangerous, it still is.

[Kate Lister]

Still is. I'm still scary.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, very much so. You know, all you have to do really is ask, you know, like, what is your story from giving birth?

[Kate Lister]

And there's still, you know what I've noticed. Every single mate I've had has had a baby. When I've actually asked that question, what was the birth like? They can't remember. It's like the body like blots out. It's like something. I don't know if there's some actual scientific research behind this or if just all of my friends went for the drug option, but like, they don't remember. And I think maybe that is some kind of. I'm off script now, but I think that might be some kind of evolutionary thing because if you did actually remember what happened, if you actually. Yeah, well, I was in excruciating Agony for 52 hours, Kate. That's how it. Well, you wouldn't do that again.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Do you know? It's a conspiracy of silence, in my opinion. I think it's a conspiracy of silence. People don't talk about it because they don't want to put other people off. But, you know, that's the exact opposite of how medieval people are getting on with it, because medieval birth is so much more matter of fact.

[Kate Lister]

Really?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah. Because fundamentally, medieval people don't have privacy.

[Kate Lister]

No, they don't. That's something I've learned from talking to you. That changed how I think about a Lot of these people, the concept of privacy.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

You're not going to be going anywhere to have your child. You're going to be having your child at home.

[Kate Lister]

Most likely medieval maternity wards.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

No. And I mean there are medieval hospitals, but the concept of the medieval hospital is super different to how it is now where it's like they're kind of like inns, they're run by, you know, monks and nuns. Yeah, I mean, fully, fully. It's like, you know, there might be someone like giving birth, someone like, you know, dying of cancer. And then also you're like, oh, I just needed a place to stay. And then like some people. Yeah. Kind of having dinner downstairs.

[Kate Lister]

Fabulous already.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Right, okay, great. So, I mean, that's not what's going to be happening for you when you are having a child. You're going to be having this child in your own home. You are probably going to be attended by the women.

[Kate Lister]

You know, there has been research done and I can't think of the proper title of it that shows that home births, the, the more calm the surroundings that actually that hyper medicalized environment, although very safe and necessary, let's not put people off it. But actually being calmer in a home environment can reduce stress, shorten labor.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is if you can like chill out. Yeah, that's probably good.

[Kate Lister]

Watch the telly.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

And you know, so this is the thing is like, you know, probably your mom's gonna be there, maybe your mother in law, your sisters and I mean the midwife is going to be there and that, that's going to be who looks after it. And it doesn't matter who you are. Like even if you are an incredibly wealthy queen, physicians don't really deal with this stuff. You, you basically have midwifery as a separate skill. Now a physician might be called Wild.

[Kate Lister]

Goes down like that scene in Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, exactly. But you know, for the most part it's just going to be women because this is very much considered a specialist occupation and it is one that is taken incredibly seriously. And now to, to be fair, midwives do more than just deliver babies, but that is really the one where it's always going to be them.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Who is doing it. So that's kind of cool. It's. There's like this specific medical field for women.

[Kate Lister]

Is it true that some nuns were midwives or some midwives were nuns?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, absolutely, because the nuns are some of the women who are trained pretty extensively in medical care. So again, hospitals, it might just be like A nunnery's got beds. You know, very famously in Paris, the Hotel Dieu is run by nuns. And so, like, there are all these nuns who will kind of like look in on you there. And so if you've got some expertise, you're going to be given more expertise. And this is also something that nuns can go do. You know, nuns are supposed to be enclosed. They're just supposed to be hanging out in their nunnery away from the world and not participating in society. But if you're going to attend a birth, this is considered, like, worthy and fine. And, you know, Hildegard Bingen writes rather a lot about midwifery as well. So, you know, I mean, Hildegard Bingham writes a lot about. A lot. So that's probably not a surprise. She know. She's just like the infinite monkeys. She's just got it. Like, she probably.

[Kate Lister]

She's just the kind of person. She would just deliver several babies in between composing symphonies and.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Exactly.

[Kate Lister]

Recording her visions and whatever the fuck else she was doing.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

God bless her.

[Kate Lister]

God bless that woman. I know what you're going to tell me now. This is because this is women's history. No fucker is bothered to write it down. Was there training for this? How would you get into being a midwife? It's quite specialist now. You can't just rock up and go, I am a midwife. Yeah.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

I mean, the thing is, you're going to need a reputation and you are probably going to train in a sort of apprenticed kind of manner. And, yeah, you're right, we don't have a whole lot on this because it's like, ladies stuff. No, thank you. Oh, gross. You know, kind of a deal.

[Kate Lister]

Call us when it's baptized.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, exactly. And so we do know, though, that these women form a backbone of their community. They show up in tax records. You know, we find these midwives who are working in different places around the shop and they are, yes, delivering babies, but they're also doing generalized health care for the community. Right. So this is going to be the woman that you go see when you got a cough. Right. The midwife is going to be called. You're not getting a physician, like, especially if, I don't know, you live in rural Scotland.

[Kate Lister]

It's like a wise woman type. Yeah, it is a wise woman.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's like, yo. Like, if you are a trained physician, like, say you went to the school at Salerno, whereas there's like, one. Like, you didn't go there so that you could be like, oh, I can't wait to practice rural medicine.

[Kate Lister]

No.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

In, like, Northumbria. No, that's not.

[Kate Lister]

And those people wouldn't have been able to afford. Afford someone like that anyway. Oh.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

So it's like you go. You do that and then you go to court.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Or you hang out in a city where there's a lot of rich merchants, and that's who you attend to. So the great majority of medical help that is happening is by people like midwives. And also, frankly, you want a midwife so much more than you want as a physician because. Yeah, here's the thing about medieval medicine. It's not real.

[Kate Lister]

No. It's mad.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Properly mental.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah. And I mean, to be fair, like. And now this is like the proviso that I always say it's not just medieval people. People, you know, they were getting it from the Romans and the Greeks and, like, it basically, it takes until the 19th century for any medicine to be like, work.

[Kate Lister]

And even now, today, you have to remember that advice changes all the time. All the time.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Absolutely. You know, like, all you got to do is, like, think about diets. Like, how many times have we gone back and forth on whether or not you should be eating eggs? Right. You know, like. And these things are constantly going on. Right.

[Kate Lister]

I was watching a sitcom from the 70s over the weekend, the Good Life, and it was interesting to. Top. Top tier.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Top. Yes.

[Kate Lister]

But it was interesting just to watch. That was in 1975, and it's so weird watching it, of how much things have changed. So there was an episode where Tom does his backing, and the advice is to lie completely immobile on the floor. And that's exact opposite now it's either I move around.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, exactly. So that is also kind of like the difference between, if you've got medicine, like physicians are learning at universities, that is going to be a lot more rigid because it's going to be a lot more. Oh, well, let us go back and see what Hippocrates wrote about this. Like, let us go back to the ancients, because there's this great reverence for classical medicine and an idea that that must be better. Whereas if you're going to a midwife in your village, she's gonna be like, this works real good.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

You know, I know. I know that if you boil up willow bark and you drink it, it's going to help your headache. You know, I know that El Campane seems to help to treat lung afflictions. You know, these. You see work.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

And. Yeah. You'll be taught this by whoever it is you're apprenticing with and whoever it is you're working alongside. But these are also things that you might be tinkering with around the joint. And, you know, you as a midwife are going to need to know how to do things like stitch things up. And so that is going to be. I know, but that's in great, you know, demand. You know, if being able to do stitches is being able to do stitches, that's great. So these women are really kind of like the front line of what health care is in the medieval period. And every day of the week, I would rather have one of them than like some court physician who's going to be like, yeah, yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Without. I think it would have been the kind of thing that, like, was passed down families, like, you do it because your mother did it and you could.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's super, super common. It's really common for there to be just like a family of people who do this. So.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Eleanor after this short break.

[Hannah]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Eleanor Yarniger]

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[Hannah]

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[Eleanor Yarniger]

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[Eleanor Yarniger]

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[Kate Lister]

So I'm trying to think like actually of the birthing experience.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

It sucked.

[Kate Lister]

I mean, all the people listening to this that have had babies and if you ask your friends who've had baby and all this stuff have just talk to them about their birth, if they remember it and all the things that happened that if it wasn't for modern medicine would have been. Fucking nightmare. My mate Sam split from fucking keel to stern.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Oh God. Yeah. Like I'm one of four because my parents are idiots. I love you, mom and dad. Thank you. But like all of us either tried to kill our mother or almost died. Like all of us. And if it was the medieval period, she would have just.

[Kate Lister]

You'd have been gone.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like my sister was breaching. My mother's blood wouldn't clot with me. My older younger brother, umbilical cord around the neck. My youngest brother, 11 pounds, 3 ounces.

[Kate Lister]

Holy moly.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Which is, you know, we're a big family.

[Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

So, yeah, like all of this. So, you know, if you just kind of consider how difficult and dangerous it is now, it's even more at the time. Right. But the thing is they were super matter of fact about it because I think one of the big differences between like today and then is everyone goes, oh, sweetie, it's fine. Actually, it's the most natural thing in the world. Well, so beauty, I mean, it's like that doesn't make it beautiful, honey. Right. And I think that now we really tend to downplay the dangers of childbirth because, you know. Yeah, we're trying not to freak women out. But like, I don't know, you could use a little bit of being freaked out. Right? Like, there's. There is. You know, don't freak people out. And there's like, also. Let's be reasonable.

[Kate Lister]

Let's surprise them.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah. Like, this is. I think that a lot of people are kind of surprised when they get there. And it's, like, dangerous and horrifying and you almost die.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

You know, and so medieval people are like, yeah, no, it's bad. Right? Okay. So there's this particular medieval document that I love that is called a letter on virginity or the Holy Medved. Or like, don't get mad at me. My middle English is rubbish. Okay. And it is a specific work that is like, girl, do not get married. Like, dedicate your life to Christ. And it's talking very specifically about, like, all of the shock and horror of what goes along with being a wife and mother. And they're like, you think you want to bang, and you do, but you're gonna get knocked up, and then you're gonna have to give birth. And it goes into detail being like, pregnancy sucks. It sucks in his ass. And you're going to want to puke the whole time. And you're still gonna have to be plowing the field, and your useless husband is still gonna be like, where's dinner? And you're still gonna have, like, do all of these things even. And then you're gonna give birth, and it's going to be awful. It's. Even if you survive, which is a pretty big if. I mean, we're talking about kind of like a 50, 50 chance at the time, you know, even if you survive that they're like. And then you're left with a kid, and then you gotta look after it. And then, you know it's gonna disappoint you someday by, like, being a weird little slut. And, you know, it's gonna grow up to be just like you girls.

[Kate Lister]

So just don't do it.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Don't do it. Right? And so this is like a specific thing where it just goes on and on and on. It's like, do you understand what it's like when your water breaks? Like, do you understand what it's like.

[Kate Lister]

When, like, you're a woman who'd had a baby.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah. I mean, well. Or either that or who had been around it enough and just like. Like, do you get that, like, you are going to soil yourself in front of everyone while you're giving birth? Do you get that? Do you understand that it's gonna, like, tear you apart? Do you. Is that Something that you understand. It's not just a cute little baby at the end. This is a really visceral process. And they were a lot more upfron about that. And now, granted, this is 100 attract. That is like, antinatalist. They're like, don't. Don't have children. And, you know, a lot of religious works are like, you shouldn't be doing that. Like, you know, the ideal medieval Christian is a virgin. Right. I think it's St. Jerome says that, like, he praises the office of marriage because it gives him virgins, where it's like, well, you people messed up, but, like, more virgins might be born. And then. I know he's the worst.

[Kate Lister]

He's just such a tool.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

I know. Well, you know, he's like his kink is beating himself with rocks instead of beating off. And, you know, I'm not gonna kink shame.

[Kate Lister]

Well, I am. He's a tool. But the thing is, I want to be careful that we don't, like, completely stigmatize childbirth in the Middle Ages, because quite obviously, they managed it. We're all the walking, living, breathing proof that some people at least, and quite a lot of people successfully gave birth. What was their process like? I mean, would you have had a medieval birthing plan? Would you have had, like a medieval birthing pool or one of those balls to bounce on?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

I mean, usually one of the big things that you have is a chair.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, a chair.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah. So, like, a chair is like a birthing chair is a really big thing.

[Kate Lister]

Is that good or bad? Like, is that like a mad thing that they had that they thought was good?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

I think it's actually pretty good because, like, one of the things that we were kind of learning now, for example, is that, like, the laying down thing is. Isn't necessarily great because their idea was like, yo, you want to use gravity in your favor. So it's kind of like. So if you sit up, if you can, like, get on this chair, and you know, you're not always going to want to get on the chair because you're going to be in, like, great pain, but if you can sit up and get on the chair, then that gravity is going to help draw the baby down along with the contractions.

[Kate Lister]

We need midwives and gynecologists to email into the show just to let us know if that. If the chair was a bad idea or a good idea.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

And that. Yeah, and they.

[Kate Lister]

Gravity sounds. That sounds sensible to me.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Birthing pool. Not so much. Just because, I mean, like, granted, you could fill up the tub with, with water. But like it's probably gonna cool down and then you're gonna have to keep replacing it and it's eventually gonna, it's gonna get. Yeah. And when you're carrying water the whole time. Yeah, water's really annoying. Now you might end up just giving birth in bed. That's super common as well. You know, that's a big place to do it because you're so uncomfortable. You're like, no, I will not stand up. Thank you. No, not gonna happen. But as a general rule, you're gonna be giving birth in your own home and like someone's gonna go get the midwife. That's what's gonna happen. Like, you know, your mother in law or your sister or whoever is going to look after you and then someone's gonna go run get the midwife and then she's gonna come in and take over. And what that means can be, you know, anything. You know, you could have a relatively straightforward birth and she is just gonna be like, yeah, great job girl. Like rub your back. You other things that can happen. So for example, we know that you know, in order to avoid vaginal tearing, for example, they will like oil you up. Like that's a, that's a big thing that kind of happens is like the hope that this is going to like prevent tears from happening. They will be keeping an eye on the baby like in case it is, you know, breach or something like that. And you know, they'll get in there and just kind of try to manipulate it, move it around if it's gone into the wrong position. So that's something that they are super clear on. But for the most part, this is kind of an at home deal where we're just going to see what we see.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Once we get there. Right.

[Kate Lister]

Did they do that lying in thing or was that a rich person deal? Like when, you know, when you shut themselves away in like a little room with no windows or light and lots of incense.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Peasants girls ain't got no room.

[Kate Lister]

No. There's no time.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

No. They've just got the peasant girls live in one room which like sometimes in the winter there's a cow at one end. Right. You know, like granted they're in like little stall thing. It's not like in the same room, you know, but everybody lives in one big room for the most part. So no, I mean like you'll probably lay down for a couple of days just because of, you know, the trauma. But they're not, it's not going to be that whole, like, lying in. We cover up all the windows. Here are some incense. Da, da, da. That's for queens, you know, that's for ladies. It's not for your average individual who is just going to have to be in their house in the best way that they can be.

[Kate Lister]

Frankly, confinement. That was the word I was looking.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

That sounds fucking awful, by the way.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah. Oh, I mean, I wouldn't recommend it, I don't think. You know, and this is the thing that confinement is a really interesting one because that lasts for ages, as an idea. Yeah. I mean, it's. Jesus, It's. It's such a difficult thing in medical history because it's like, basically absolutely nothing worked until we figured out germs exist, but they were still doing all this weird stuff anyway. And you're like, yeah, it's not till the 19th century that any of this gets better. Right?

[Kate Lister]

Just lie there in a bed for like. Like a month, maybe more, waiting for this thing to kick off.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

And they're like, please don't get postpartum depression. Have fun.

[Kate Lister]

Why would nuns make good midwives?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Well, nuns make good midwives because in the first place, they are dedicated to serving their communities. They are the sort of people who can sit around and read the text in order to learn about these things. And also in cases of extremists, where you have a baby who has been born, but it's not looking good and they very well may die, which is incredibly common. You know, let us keep in mind that until we invent vaccines, 50% of all children are going to die before they are the age of two. And it's incredibly common with newborns for them to die. And so you would be happy to have a nun because a nun, in this case is authorized to perform baptism.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, that's handy.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

So wait, no, that sounds like a bigger deal than I thought that was then. Because only priests were allowed to do.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, ordinarily, yeah. And you have some cases where when stuff gets really bad. So, like, for example, during the Black Death, they'll be like, if you can't get a priest, just get a Christian. And they can do these things. And then if you can't find a Christian man, I guess a woman could do it. Like, if somebody's dying, you can hear someone's last confession. You know, like, you can go find a woman. But here is a case where they're like, well, yeah, it's more likely that you're gonna have a nun around than it is to, like, go fetch a priest. And then if you've got to go fetch a priest, and then you're also wasting time. And everybody agrees it's really important to get the baby baptized so that they don't end up in purgatory. So, you know, that is something that. It's a rare example of where women get to have a little bit more spiritual power, specifically in the birthing room.

[Kate Lister]

So are the nuns trained in, I guess not just push and breathe, but surgery as well. Like Caesareans.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Caesareans. This is the big thing, right? And so let's keep in mind that a caesarean at the time, you know, like, again, up until essentially, like, like the 20th century, you do cesareans when it's like, she ain't gonna make it, right? Like. Like it's over for wifey. Like, she is probably already. She's gonna be dead. Like she's dead. And you're like, okay, we've gotta get to this baby. And odds are baby's also going to die.

[Kate Lister]

Okay?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

That's what the odds are. But what you want to do is make sure it gets baptized. So you get in there to get the baby to make sure that it is baptized so that it goes to heaven. So that is when someone would perform a cesarean section. And again, this is something that's really handy to have a nun who is trained up here because she can cut you open and she can also do the baptism really quickly. And because odds are, the baby, if it's got to this incredibly difficult situation, odds are the baby is going to die as well. But we're still thinking about the pastoral needs of the baby. And this is as much a form of. Of healthcare as is seeing to the corporeal needs of either the mother or child.

[Kate Lister]

Because it was almost certain death, wasn't it? Oh, yeah. You wouldn't do that unless you knew it was absolute curtains. And even then you'd probably still be holding out, hoping it would. It would be okay.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, I mean, like, fundamentally this doesn't happen unless mom's dead and we're worried because the baby's too far in and there's like no amount of gravity that's gonna get them out.

[Kate Lister]

It's grim, isn't it?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

It's grim. Don't you love having me on?

[Kate Lister]

So would this have been primarily a woman only space then?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

I mean, for the most part, this is one of these circumstances where we just see a lot of chicks rocking, you know, like, you are probably gonna have like, your husband toddle along once or twice in certain occasions, but for the most part, they're like, get out of here. Go take the other kids and go to your dad's house. Or something like that. Right. Like, go make yourself useful. And so that is something that certainly would exist now, probably especially for poorer families. There's gonna be a little bit less of that. But this is. Is a kind of time and place where women are hanging out around other women, and, like, that is who the crowd is.

[Kate Lister]

From what you're saying, it sounds like midwives are. Well, they're quite important people. So I'm assuming that they were very widely respected and given a lot of kudos in the community and not accused of being witches at any point.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Now, I want to be clear that medieval people really don't do that.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, yes, sir.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

I forgot how to say early modern problem. Anti early modern action.

[Kate Lister]

Sorry. So, yeah, but this is slipping there into that myth.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

And this is a really important one, though, because we do see when we hit the early modern period, we do see that more midwives end up getting persecuted as witches. But there's a very specific thing here. Right.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Whereas it's not just any midwife. Like, midwives exist the entire time. Like, across the early modern period, midwives.

[Kate Lister]

Are still around periodically executing. All the midwives.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah. You know who you periodically execute, the midwives who do abortions. Because medieval people are a lot more chill on the whole abortion front. Medieval people are like, well, so true, bestie. Like, you do we have to have abortions from now and then? And medieval church way chiller about abortions than you would think. They're basically like, yo, it's a freebie up to three months.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. They had this idea about the quickening.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah. And they're like, don't get me wrong. They're not like, yes, I love abortions.

[Kate Lister]

That's.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

That's my favorite thing, you know? But they are like, look, fundamentally, we know things happen. You might have too many children. And what they see as probable in circumstances where people cannot feed their children, which is a real concern at the time, is infanticide. And they see that as a probable outcome because it is probable, because infanticide is incredibly high when you can't access, you know, abortion services. And so a lot of midwives are like, also, this is the thing that I do, and that is usually kind of intervention that is like a. For example, drinking penny royalty.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. Am I right in thinking that, like, the quickening around about three months, that was when they thought that the soul.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

The soul enters.

[Kate Lister]

And up until that point, it's like, It's. It's not a Christian. There's no soul. Whatever you do doesn't count. But after that, then things.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Then things get. And it's like from there, like, it kind of like goes up and up and up. I mean, like, not that women are really usually attempting to like, abort pregnancies after six months, but it's like it would get worse and worse and worse. Right? Ye. In terms of what penance is. But penance is usually like, surprisingly light for the first three months. And they're just like, yeah, please don't kill babies. That would be cool. Like, you know, just get an abortion. It'll be fine. That changes after we invent Protestants. Because Protestants and Catholics are like, I'm the holy one. No. You know, holy. I'm holy. No. And then they're like, you. You would do abortions. No, I wouldn't. You would know. I bet you that sounds like something you would do. And then they're like. So it turns into like the spiritual arms. Right, okay. Or a slap fight, you know, kind of thing. So then everyone goes, no abortions. That is.

[Kate Lister]

It ruined it.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, exactly. And so then you go after the midwives who are doing abortions. And that is very specifically.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

The group of midwives who are persecuted as the ones doing abortion services.

[Kate Lister]

Start with Eleanor after this short break.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

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[Kate Lister]

IT bottlenecks, admin requests.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

But what if things were different? Monday.com is different. No lengthy onboarding, beautiful reports in minutes. Custom workflows you can build on your own. Easy to use prompt, free AI. Huh.

[Kate Lister]

Turns out you can love a work management platform.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Monday.com the first work platform you'll love to use.

[Hannah]

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[Kate Lister]

Have we got any texts left to us by any? Were midwives able to write? Was there any man that wanted to write for a midwife? We had. Have any textual evidence? Any medieval version of call a midwife?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

I mean, the number one, it's. It's going to be your girl, Trotta Salerno and the trotula, right? And now granted, we think that she very well may have been an actual physician. She very well may have been Educated at Salerno, but she writes this ob GYN treaties, which tells you very expressly how they're like, well, this is what you do about a breached baby. This is what you do about tearing. This is how you care for mothers afterwards. And it goes really step by step about what it is you're supposed to do. And this is, you know, the equivalent of a medieval bestseller. This survives to us in absolutely tons of copies. I mean, after the original text gets written, that tells you all these important ob GYN things, then later on, they're like, and here's how you curl your hair. And like, people like, add to it. And they're like, yeah, this is. The eminent midwife was also like, here's how you make lipstick. Like, yeah, sure, bro.

[Kate Lister]

Different people.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, different people. But it kind of travels together as like, here is the one stop shop for ladies and things that you'll need to do. So it's interesting because there is also. With this, we kind of see there's kind of an understanding that, like, women are gonna need to know a little bit about what's due generally, because you're gonna be at somebody's birth at some point in time, helping out, and you can't lay it all at the feet of the midwife.

[Kate Lister]

Do we have anything in the records about women what hampsome their bodies after they. Cause sometimes you read some records of how many births somebody's had. It's not super duper, but, like, I've come across women wasn't medieval, it was 18th century and she'd had 34.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah. I mean, you get into some clown car situations and you just think, like.

[Kate Lister]

What did that do? Like, even if. Even if she didn't require stitches, like, but how could you not, like, what that must have done to her body?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, I mean, we certainly. It's not uncommon to see women who have had, like, you know, 13 kids, 16 kids, you know, like, this sort of thing like that is very, very common. And I mean, I think that the thing that sort of happens there is that your body does, to an extent, get used to it, where it's like, oh, we're doing this again. Right. You're gonna have less tearing, you know, and if you are the sort of person who has been, like, really maimed by the situation, you might not be the sort of person who gets pregnant again.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

You know, you might be like, yeah, that's cool that Jesus says we need to do that. Absolutely not. We are not ejaculating inside of anything. Right. Like, so you. There are ways of doing. Getting around that. Right.

[Kate Lister]

I often think, like, because this. This is not a history that's. That's written down because. And it's still something that people struggle to talk about today, actually, I don't think it's spoken about nearly enough is the vaginal damage and the internal damage that can be done. I mean, they must have been like, incontinent and tears and fistulas and all kinds of internal injuries.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I mean, one of the. That we have really good records on from the medieval period that they do a lot of surgery on is very specifically fistulas.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, wow.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

So like, fistula and ano. The one where you kind of like get a fistula through to your anus, which is super common as a result of problematic pregnancies. That's one of the first things where everyone is like, we need to sit down and write up how you deal with this. So there are surgical practices very specifically to address that. But, yeah, absolutely. And it is, though, as you say, the sort of thing that you just don't talk about. Right. Like, it's. Well, in the first place, it's happening to women. So is it happening? I don't. I didn't hear anything, you know. Right. So you wouldn't talk about that. In the second place, you know, it's kind of like private stuff, so you're not necessarily going to talk about it. And then in the third place, it's so common that it doesn't even necessarily require talking about. Right. You know, now for us in the global north, that would be a lot more of an anomaly and something that you would talk about. But, you know, it's still something that is a real problem for women in the global south, for example. So, like, access to really good health care around birth is still incredibly limited by where you live.

[Kate Lister]

So there's a final question then. When did things start to shift that birth became increasingly medicalized? And I don't want to be, you know, a crusty person being like, yeah, we should all be at home on a lily pad and being worse. I think that actually medical intervention is a good thing. But also there is an argument to say that we do overly medicalize this. And now the idea that you just go into hospital to have a baby, that's the done thing. But when did it stop being like, Betty up the road that you just go and get.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

It's an enlightenment issue. So, you know, with the enlightenment, everyone is like, we're doing science now, guys. It's science time.

[Kate Lister]

Stand Back, ladies, it was not science.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

You know, like for like until the 19th century. It's like you're still just doing like, you know, humoral theory with more steps. But one of these things that we begin to see, especially at the end, end of the Middle ages, is an increasing professionalization of physicians in particular. So whereas before you could be like, I spent a couple of weeks at Salerno and I'm a physician now or whatever, that begins to get tightened up. And so kings will say, for example, you can't call yourself a physician unless you have a degree from a university fair. So that means that women increasingly do not have access.

[Kate Lister]

Unfair.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah. Now it still happens, you know, we'll still see like women, for example, we've got women on record in Paris, for example, who are basically suing to say, like, look, I'm trained, let me in, I should be able to say that I'm a physician.

[Kate Lister]

That kind of thing you wrote about in your book.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yes, my book, the Once in Future Sex. We treat this in my chapter on, you know, women's roles in society. So, you know, like what it means to be a wife and mother, you know, so. Yeah, absolutely.

[Kate Lister]

But they were trained.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Trained. And we know this and when we've got their names right. But this becomes increasingly untenable as you hit the Enlightenment where, you know, the universities really become much larger and then suddenly universities begin giving medical degrees. So, right, like you and I, as the correct kind of doctor, the original kind of doctor, like, you know, like a doctor originally met someone who had a Ph.D. and physicians were physicians.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

And then you kind of start seeing later, especially kind of like 18th century, 19th century physicians are now suddenly called doctor, whereas they were not previously.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

And so when all of this comes in, that's when we see women increasingly excluded and then like especially in kind of like the 19th century, 20th century, then it's going to be like more doctors, doctors, doctors, doctors, doctors. So particularly in the kind of post war period in the global north, it's much more going to be like, you go to hospital, you see a doctor, there isn't really going to be a midwife so much. And that can vary from place to place. So that's certainly more true for examp in the States than it is here. And you know, call the midwife is a great program for a reason, you.

[Kate Lister]

Know, and it's a great book, actually. I read the book of that before it came out and it was fascinating.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, brilliant stuff. So, you know, midwives certainly always existed along those lines. But you know, we just kind of have changed our ways of thinking about what birth is and you know who is an expert.

[Kate Lister]

Elena, thank you so much for coming and talking to me. It's been absolutely horrific.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Oh well, you know, I aim to horrify.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Eleanor for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email [e-mail] Coming up, we have the first in our new miniseries series exploring sex work throughout history and we are starting with Ancient Rome. This podcast was edited by Tom Delaghi and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again Betwixt sheets the history of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

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