← Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
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- [00:00]
Kate Lister
Hi, I'm your host, Kate Lister. If you would like Betwixt the Sheets ad free and get early access, sign up to History Hit With a History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every single week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.
- [00:27]
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- [00:55]
Kate Lister
Hello, my lovely betwixters. How the hell are you doing? It's me, Kate Lister. I am me. You are you. And this is Betwixt the Sheets. And I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. And if you can't tick every single one of those off your list, then you have no business being here at all. And for the rest of you, on with the show. What are you a corny man?
- [01:20]
Halle Lieberman
Oh, money. Of course you're supposed to rise when.
- [01:23]
Kate Lister
An adult's I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, my beautiful dime. Goodness has nothing to do with it, dear. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. That post Christmas period can be something of a slump, a little post festive malaise. Which is why it's great if you have some toys to play with. Even better if they're sex toys. To be honest, I don't know if Santa delivers sex toys down the chimney, but he brings joy, so why wouldn't he? For today's episode, we are revisiting an earlier conversation I had with the rather wonderful Halle Lieberman, author of Buzz, the stimulating history of the sex toy. To find out more about the long history of sex toys. Batteries at the ready, Betwixters. Let's do this. So thank you so much for joining me Betwixt the Sheets. I am absolutely buzzing. It's sex toy historian Halle Lieberman.
- [02:40]
Halle Lieberman
And thank you, Kate, so much for having me on your podcast. I'm a big fan of your book, of your work, so I'm very Excited.
- [02:48]
Kate Lister
To be here, Halle, I want to know your expertise. I mean, as long as there have been people, we've been carving dicks and sticking stuff places that we probably shouldn't have been putting them. But what's like the oldest sex toy that has been found?
- [03:02]
Halle Lieberman
Okay, so the oldest sex toy that has been found is like 30,000 years old. It's a stone phallus. There are debates found in like the whole Fels cave in Germany and their debates whether like these stone phalluses were dildos because there are no pictures of them, like shoving them in orifices. So some people think that they were ceremonial, but it could be a sex toy. So that's all it is.
- [03:29]
Kate Lister
Whenever they unearth what's clearly a dick, there then ensues a big conversation about just what is it? And you can't say it's a sex toy because we don't know. It could be a coat hook, it could be ceremonial is what they usually say. So like, what's the argument for this one at 28,000 years old is definitely a dildo. And what's the argument against.
- [03:50]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah, so I don't think people are saying it's definitely a dildo. It's more like, this is something it could be. And then the argument against will be like, oh, it could be a spear sharpener. That's the other thing. And it's like, why, why do we need to sharpen our spears on dick like objects? Like we don't do that today. Should. I would love that. But for me, like when I was researching it, it's like this kind of male fear of dildos and sex toys goes back so far. So even if we see something that's clearly a dick, sometimes other excuses are made for them or they're dismissed in some way.
- [04:31]
Kate Lister
So that's possibly the earliest sex toy that we've got. Let's jump it on thousands of years because we've got to talk about the vibrator in the room, don't we? That myth, you know the myth that I'm talking about. Hallie, take it away.
- [04:47]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah, so there's a myth that probably some of your listeners have heard of, which is that vibrators were used to treat hysteria in women in doctor's offices in the early 1900s. And so the idea was women went into doctor's office, they said, oh, I'm complaining of hysteria. And what was hysteria? It could be anything. It could be just general malaise, it could be anxiety. It was this catch all diagnosis. And so they complain and Doctors would say, hey, I've got a great treatment for you. Take off your britches, or whatever they were calling them then, and I'll put this vibrator on your clitoris. I will give you paroxysm, as the story goes, and you will be cured. And a paroxysm is orgasm. But the cure will only last for a short time. You have to keep coming back. And the reason that vibrators were used as part of the myth is men's hands were getting tired, male doctors hands were getting tired, giving hand jobs to women for hysteria. Now, this on its face, if it sounds absurd and untrue, and it is. But this myth has lasted forever, and it won't die. And there are lots of reasons for that.
- [06:04]
Kate Lister
And it's been the subject of two films as well, hasn't it?
- [06:08]
Halle Lieberman
It has one starring Maggie Gyllenhaal.
- [06:11]
Kate Lister
So it definitely seeped into popular consciousness. So how do you go about dismantling that? How did you prove that that didn't happen?
- [06:19]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah, well, it started a long time ago when I was in grad school, and the assignment was check the citations of a book you're using for your research. And I did it, and so did the whole class. And I was the only one whose results were like. At first I thought I was like, I'm misunderstanding this. I'm in grad school. None of these citations are adding up to what the book is saying. There's something I'm missing. And my professor said, that's, you're absolutely right. These don't add up. And then I actually went to the archives, Bakken Museum in Minnesota, and checked all their citations and found out none of them said this practice was happening. The problem wasn't that I found this out. The problem was getting anybody to believe me. No one wanted to publish it. They're like, oh, you're only a grad student, so you don't know what you're talking about. Like, I was trying to, like, get it peer reviewed and published. And they were like, no, no, you're assaulting any scholar in the field. And it's like, I don't care anything about the scholar. I just want the truth out there. And that made me cynical. It took me almost seven, eight years to get it published. And finally it was just like, I gave up and just threw it to a new journal. I was like, this journal just came out. They have nothing to lose. And it worked.
- [07:35]
Kate Lister
Thank God the earliest ones are stone. But just speaking of how people made sex toys, Halle, like, what were they making them of, presumably the stone model would have been replaced pretty quick. Like if you were in, I don't know, medieval, what would you make a dildo out of? A medieval period?
- [07:52]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah, I mean there were dildos made out of all sorts of things like leather, There were dildos made of ivory. Those were like the main things until like rubber came along. And when rubber came along in the mid-1800s. Well actually rubber was before then. That was when it was vulcanized. So there were these rubber dildos except that they would crack because they were like this bad material like before vulcanization and they couldn't be sanitized and they had a strong smell. And so that's what. There were a lot of rubber dildos.
- [08:30]
Kate Lister
I've seen like polished wooden ones, but these must have been quite pricey.
- [08:35]
Halle Lieberman
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention wood. Yes, dildos were something like for the upper classes. These were not something that, like right now anyone can afford a dildo. We can go to Amazon.com, we could all order dildos. One second. It would be like $5 cheap. But yeah, back then they were expensive, they were handmade. You know, we didn't have an assembly line making them. And so it was upper classes owning them. And just from my research, it looks like they were marketed to men to buy for their wives. The men who weren't intimidated by them. I mean, but they weren't that widespread. They weren't like what we would think of today in the 1950s. So sex toys were illegal in the US and sex toys started being illegal in the US in the 1870s with Comstock, who was this anti vice reformer. And one of the ways to get around these sex toy laws was to sell things as marital aids, which, which these laws stayed on the books for like 100 years. We still have anti sex toy laws in Alabama in the U.S. but there were two ways to get around it. One was to say it was for use in like a marriage relationship and it was for help with penetration during sex. So it was okay to sell a dildo that was a strap on penis that was designed as a marital aid for a man to wear during sex with his wife. And it would specifically say this. And this is even in the 60s, 60s and 70s during the so called sexual revolution. That's how dildos were sold. Even though women were obviously and men using them to masturbate. If you sold them that way you could get arrested even if you sold them this other way. I've looked at the records and there are complaints saying it's obscene.
- [10:23]
Kate Lister
When they were selling it like that. This is a marital aid that a husband can use. Was that like the way that herbal heiser sold as air fresheners? Like, everyone knows it's bollocks. Everyone knows what it's being used for, really? Or like, were they actually trying to sell it to men to strap on?
- [10:40]
Halle Lieberman
It was a little bit of both. Because when I talked to manufacturers, they said there were men who wrote in who were impotent. I mean, because this was before Viagra, this was before there were treatments. So it was a little bit of both. But I do think people knew there were jokes about marital aids. Like, I think people knew that also this was their way of getting around the laws. I mean, vibrators were sold as marital aids too, even though mostly used during masturbation. And there were some sex devices. This is during second wave feminism in the 1970s and 1960s. Or vibrators. There's one called the Prelude. And it was called that because it was considered a prelude to sex and it very clearly said it was penetrative. You're going to learn how to please yourself so that you can have sex with your husband better. And that was kind of the mentality and that was a way to get around the laws and the stigma.
- [11:35]
Kate Lister
Oh, my. I've never heard of that. So it was almost like this is a dress rehearsal dildo.
- [11:41]
Halle Lieberman
I love that term. Exactly. Yeah.
- [11:44]
Kate Lister
Just to take you back, because I think that we need to just go back to the Victorians, who invented them. Who invented the vibrator? Do we know who invented it?
- [11:54]
Halle Lieberman
So Granville. Who? Joseph Warrenville or Granville, who mentions in her work, was invented the electromechanical vibrator from that era. So he invented the plug in vibrator. But before then there were vibrators. There are hand crank vibrators One called the vd, super popular in England and us.
- [12:16]
Kate Lister
Wait a minute. The vibrator was called vd? Oh, that's a marketing error.
- [12:22]
Halle Lieberman
It is. Oh, no, it's like V E, D, E E. But the hand crank, it was like. So you crank, crank, crank, crank, crank. And then it would vibrate, but it was like. I mean, it would hurt your hand. It's like you might as well masturbate. And this kind of vibrator, actually a hand crank vibrator, came back on the market about 10 years ago as like earth friendly vibrator. Like one that didn't require batteries. It was like this eco vibrator.
- [12:52]
Kate Lister
An eco vibrator?
- [12:54]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah.
- [12:56]
Kate Lister
Okay, okay.
- [13:08]
Susannah Lipscomb
I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb. And on Not Just the Tudors from History Hit. We do admittedly cover quite a lot of Tudors, from the rise of Henry VII to the death of Henry viii, from Anne Boleyn to her daughter Elizabeth I. But we also do lots that's not Tudors. Murderers, mistresses, pirates and witches. Clues in the title, really. So follow Not Just the Tudors from History Hit wherever you get your podcast.
- [13:50]
Kate Lister
And Mr. Granville, when he invented this, you can't see any here, but what it looks like is. It looks like a lead weight on a piece of string that kind of. He called it percussing, didn't he? Like, it kind of taps the body. Yeah. Like, it's not what you think of when you think of a vibrator, and it's certainly not anything that you'd want near your genitals. So what was this supposed to be used for?
- [14:15]
Halle Lieberman
So there were, like, attachments that he discussed in his writings, but one of the earliest uses he mentioned was for impotence. So it was.
- [14:26]
Kate Lister
Oh, wow, okay.
- [14:27]
Halle Lieberman
Male impotence. And so it was for vibrating. The perennium was one of the earliest uses and sexual uses. And he actually said, don't use it on women initially, and he was worried about that. But, yeah, I mean, he tried it for all ailments. That's kind of like what vibratory massage was like, sciatica. You know, they were trying it for deafness at the time.
- [14:52]
Kate Lister
Deafness. Oh, my God.
- [14:54]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah. You can see old vibrator ads, and they have, like, attachments that, you know, go in your ear. So he kind of threw it out there as a doctor, basically saying, like, we're gonna try out these different treatments. Here's what I have tried out. Here's a tool that people can use. And doctors took it and ran with it. And even cancer. Like, they tried to treat cancer with it. I mean, we're talking about the 1800s. We don't have antibiotics. Medicine is so kind of archaic. I was just reading about leeches being used on the vagina last night. Anyway, so we have all sorts of bad treatments. And the vibrator was thought like, hey, like, this isn't gonna hurt people. They feel good. Let's try it for indigestion. And that actually works for. For that people do it for babies. But anyway, all these different things.
- [15:47]
Kate Lister
Whoa. No. So I go back, whoa, vibrators on babies for stomachache.
- [15:53]
Halle Lieberman
Well, okay, so they marketed vibrators to babies back. I mean, obviously. No, they didn't.
- [16:00]
Kate Lister
That's okay.
- [16:03]
Halle Lieberman
And can't purchase them. It was in the ads like it would have for all age groups. So this is ads. We're talking about 1910s around then. I mean, they were trying to sell this product. It wasn't entirely sexual. It was marketed as this kind of cure all. It's like CBD of today or snake oil of them. So they're trying to get the biggest market that they could. And it would be babies, it would be grandparents, it would be all ages.
- [16:31]
Kate Lister
And just to clarify, these weren't vibrators that you were supposed to use sexually. These were like actual massaging things that you were supposed to use. Nobody in their right mind was actually suggesting that you use it sexually on all ages?
- [16:44]
Halle Lieberman
No. So basically it was. And I'm just gonna. Because I have it here, I'm gonna hold it up. But this is a vibrator from the era. And it was basically like had this big heavy motor and lots of different attachments. And so a flat attachment might be what. Which is on here right now, which of course people can't see. But it's like this flat rubber disc. And they would say, you know, you could massage a baby with that, but you could also order in a catalog or some came with a phallic attachment which looked like a dildo or a rectal attachment. And Those were usually $150 or $2. They're more expensive than anything else. And that was for vaginal and uterine problems or for impotence or rectal problems. That was not marketed for kids. So.
- [17:36]
Kate Lister
So obviously no one can see the vibrator that you are holding up. But if I described that, I'd have to say it looks, you know, like the old fashioned whisks that you used to have with like the two attachments. Like if you don't have the metal prongs in it, it looks like that, but with like you said, a flat thing that kind of pats on the skin, like.
- [17:56]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah. And it's interesting that you mentioned that. Cause that same motor that was used for the vibrator was used for. For a bunch of different things, including vacuums, including blenders, which is similar. This motor was used for small appliances. Like, you know, they just try to sell for everything. Vibrator is one of a lot.
- [18:18]
Kate Lister
See, think of that next time you're whisking your eggs. That technology. When did they stop looking like a weird egg whisk? Because obviously the traditional shape, like the cock shape has been quite consistently popular, hasn't it? Like through and you know, like one of the Weirdest things that I found reference to just jumping around now. But when they find, like, 18th century dildos, they have plungers in them to, like, simulate cum. Like, well, surely one of the best things about a dildo is there's no cum. Who designed that?
- [18:50]
Halle Lieberman
Men, of course. Yeah. No, the plunger dildos are really interesting. And they'll say, like, you can put warm milk in them, and it's like, gross. No, I don't want more milk in my cooch.
- [19:05]
Kate Lister
Oh. Just the thought process there of, like, well, they must want the grand finale. Yeah, they can't possibly. They can't possibly want this. And, like, what were these women doing? What? They make their dildo come and then they go, oh, well, we better go to sleep now because it's all over.
- [19:20]
Halle Lieberman
What? I know.
- [19:23]
Kate Lister
Dildo's gone to sleep now.
- [19:25]
Halle Lieberman
It's pretty ridiculous. And that is like, kind of the story of dildo design is hyper realism. Like, the assumption when they're designed by men is that women want sex toys that look exactly like penises. I mean, some sex toys designers looked at their own dick and made a mold of it. But actually, one of my favorite sex toy designers did that. Who worked with the feminist movement later, Gosnell Duncan. He was paraplegic engineer who was designing a sex toy toy to allow himself to have sex with his wife because they got engaged before he got injured.
- [20:02]
Kate Lister
So stick a pin in that. We're coming back to that one. But when did they start being marketed penis shaped on mass market and not like an egg whisk.
- [20:11]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah. So I tried to find this. This was hard to find, but I believe the first one I have ever seen was the 1950s. That doesn't mean they didn't exist before then. And that was hard plastic. They would use the hard plastic outside. And I think it was in part because of battery technology. Because these were battery.
- [20:32]
Kate Lister
Of course. Yeah.
- [20:33]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah. But those actually. So I saw one from the 50s, but you really start to see those in the 60s. And again, even though they look like dicks, like, you know, abstract dicks. In ants from the 60s, you see women holding them up to their face going, ooh, personal massager. And it's like, what?
- [20:53]
Kate Lister
Has anyone in the history of sex toys used one of those neck massages to massage their neck?
- [20:59]
Halle Lieberman
You know, I would guess no. Or maybe like.
- [21:04]
Kate Lister
No, that never happened.
- [21:05]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah, never.
- [21:07]
Kate Lister
But tell me about this guy, the paraplegic guy who invented a sex toy. I had no idea.
- [21:12]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah. So his name, like I said, was Gosnell Duncan. He was Born in Grenada, he immigrated to the US and so he went to Brooklyn, met this woman. Well, he'd known her from his town, got engaged to her. But, yeah, he was in this accident, International Harvester Company in Chicago, where truck bed fell on him. He became paralyzed from the waist down. And he was devastated because he was a ladies man. He had four kids from four different women before this happened. And a skilled calypso dancer. This guy was amazing, but I know it was really sad, but he was like a very positive person. And so he did months and months of rehab. He got married in the rehab facility, like, to Angela, this woman he was in love with. But he said as he was rehabbing, no one mentioned sex. And this was in the 60s. No one. And they didn't see, you know, disabled people, sexual beings. And he's like, well, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna have sex? And there were some sex toys on the market. They sucked. He was like an inventor. So he went to this conference in 1971 in Indianapolis, a disabled conference. He said, would any of you buy a dildo or a, you know, device for handicapped people? Bunch of hands raised up. So he decided to design one. He actually ended up inventing the silicone dildo.
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Kate Lister
No way.
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Halle Lieberman
Yeah.
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Kate Lister
Oh, my God. What was his name again?
- [22:40]
Halle Lieberman
Gosnell Duncan.
- [22:42]
Kate Lister
All hail. Oh, my goodness. What an un. That's an unsung hero.
- [22:47]
Halle Lieberman
Oh, my God. Yes. And he was dark skinned and was annoyed that all the sex toys came in Caucasian. That was like flesh color, was Caucasian flesh. And if you wanted anything else, it was like holding this up, thinking, we're on video. But it was like just matte black color, not skin color. So he worked with George to design the silicone and to get different pigments that showed black and brown sticking colors. So he was a real revolutionary.
- [23:16]
Kate Lister
My God, that's incredible. And so when he pioneered the inclusive range of silicone dildos, was that not for his pleasure, presumably, but so he could pleasure a partner?
- [23:29]
Halle Lieberman
Yes.
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Kate Lister
What a legend.
- [23:31]
Halle Lieberman
Oh, yeah, he's absolutely a legend. This is like a great immigrant story. But, yeah, it was initially for Angela and for the disabled community, but he couldn't sell enough. He was making his basement in Brooklyn literally, like, making molds, like pouring them in there, curing them and selling them. And people would send him these letters. So he'd advertise and he would, you know, they'd say, this is my disability. And then he'd say, well, what are your penis measurements? And they would send him little pieces of strip string to measure the circumference. And he would make one to their specifications.
- [24:08]
Kate Lister
I don't know how that's managed to be really hot and kind of cute at the same time. That's just like, oh, right, well, he deserves a plaque or some kind of national day. Don't let anyone tell you immigration doesn't reap positive benefits. My God. Like, I talk about him a lot. But you mentioned there about dildos, sex toys, and the feminist movement. What did dildos like actually, when I said that out loud is you could be forgiven that the feminist movement might be about going, we don't need dildos. Like, you know, like any getting rid of the penis. You know, the more radical stuff. But so how does that fit together then?
- [24:47]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah. So in the 70s and 60s, most feminists weren't talking about sex toys. Okay, let's just be honest here. But when they started talking about sex toys, they were against them for the reasons you say. Like, they were physical embodiments. Yeah, physical embodiments of the patriarchy. So it was like, if you're, you know, fighting against the patriarchy a day and then, you know, masturbating with a giant dildo at night, you're a hypocrite. That was the view of a bunch of feminists. So there was that kind of thing, like, you can't do it in lesbians. There was a stereotype at the time time that all lesbians just really wanted penises. Like, they actually, like, lesbian sex wasn't satisfying and what they wanted were dicks. And so a lot of lesbians kind of internalized that view. And I didn't mean to make a pun or wasn't even a pun, but anyway. And they said, we won't use a dildo because for, you know, these political or philosophical reasons, especially because everyone assumes we like them and penetration is male. And so a lot of lesbians and feminists who wanted to use dildos did it on the down low and they were in the closet about it.
- [26:05]
Kate Lister
Surreptitious dildo use.
- [26:08]
Halle Lieberman
Absolutely. And so then with vibrators, basically, vibrators had a mixed reception as well. So Betty Dodson, this masturbation pioneer, so she was a second wave feminist pioneer, but she was, like, hated by a lot of other second wave wave feminist. So she was this artist who couldn't have an orgasm during sex with her husband. And she's like, what is this? What's going on? She ended up learning about the clitoris. She ended up learning about vibrators. Her lover was getting A haircut. And they used a vibrator on a scalp. Because they did back then in the 60s. I confirmed it with my father. He's like, it felt good.
- [26:49]
Kate Lister
Could you imagine today if you just got the haircut and the hairdresser just whipped out a rampant rabbit? I'll just finish off here.
- [26:58]
Halle Lieberman
Oh, my God. They would probably get arrested.
- [27:01]
Kate Lister
And rightly so.
- [27:03]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah, that's right. Like, if my hairdresser did that, I would be so terrified and probably call the police. So anyway, that's how she got introduced to it. She started using Hitachi magic. Well, the precursor to that. And she wanted to share this knowledge with other feminists. So she started these kind of groups where there were these liberating masturbation groups where she'd teach people about their genitals because a lot of women were insecure about their labia and still are. And the requirement was you had to get naked before you entered the group. And that was like, the worst part for most women. And then you get naked, and she'd basically say you were normal. And, you know, you look at your vagina and labia. And then she taught women how to masturbate. And a lot of people in these groups had their first orgasms. So she was the real push to bring vibrators in the feminist movement. That doesn't mean they were accepted. She was criticized so much for doing this.
- [28:03]
Kate Lister
And just to make. I mean, again, she can enter my sex pantheon hall of fame. But just to clarify, when you're talking about vibrators here, we're not necessarily talking about the fake dicks that vibrate. We're talking about, like, specific, specifically for the clit. They're called wands.
- [28:18]
Halle Lieberman
Yes.
- [28:19]
Kate Lister
Is that right? Like the Hitachi wand, or as I like to call it, that one.
- [28:24]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah, that's exactly what we're talking about. Things that were at the time sold as gifts for Mother's Day in the New York Times.
- [28:32]
Kate Lister
No.
- [28:33]
Halle Lieberman
Yes. And so we still have these two kind of uses in culture. We have Betty Dotson going, I've had a hundred orgasms from this, and you should, too. It's changed, changed my life. You don't need a man anymore. And then you have, oh, buy this for your mom, like, on May 8th. And so it was this weird. And we still kind of have that in our culture. But it was this weird kind of double life of the vibrator. And Hitachi wasn't admitting the uses. And she's like, hitachi should have sponsored me.
- [29:02]
Kate Lister
So these really were massaging devices to start with they really were. And Hitachi just kind of just went, no, no, no, no, for a long time.
- [29:12]
Halle Lieberman
Exactly. But they knew what was going on. So it was like a tacit acceptance. Like they didn't tell her to stop, but they never said until I think it was 2010 or something, 2015. Then they, you know, admitted they were for 2015. It was some. Yeah.
- [29:28]
Kate Lister
When they, they finally went, yeah, all right, we know what they're doing. That's wild.
- [29:34]
Halle Lieberman
It took a long ass time and yeah, so it's pretty crazy. But she introduced them and, you know, she made this larger philosophical argument which I mentioned briefly, which was like, you shouldn't have to depend on a man for an orgasm. That women are having these, like, financial relationships with men where they're trading financial security with sex, but they're not even having orgasms for men. So don't worry about it. You know, make your own money. Your sex isn't tied up to a man. Use a vibrator. Free yourself. And that was a very threatening message to men, even to other women, to gender roles and marital roles at the time.
- [30:19]
Kate Lister
Wow, we've come a long way then, haven't we? Because talking about sex and pleasure, I mean, I would have said that's a central part of the feminist conversation. Or maybe it's just the conversations that I'm having, but like making sure that you get yours. Yeah.
- [30:34]
Halle Lieberman
Third wave feminism has come a long way. Absolutely. So at the time, like Betty Friedan argued, like, a thousand vibrators can't make a difference in the status of women. And others were arguing, like, get rid of this orgasm politics. But now I think, you know, I mean, you see on Instagram people promoting vibrators, even though it's against policy to market openly market sex toys on Instagram or Facebook. But anyway, you see people posting things talking about the orgasm gap and how women deserve to have as many orgasms as men. And so, yeah, it's shifted, but I still think that women are reticent about demanding orgasms in a relationship. I still think there's a lot of public facing stuff that says that, but I still think they're in the bedroom itself. Some women are still uncomfortable about that. And by some women, I'm thinking of one of my friends in particular, who I won't name. I'm not old.
- [31:42]
Susannah Lipscomb
I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb. And on not just the Tudors from history hit. We do admittedly cover quite a lot of Tudors, from the rise of Henry VII to the death of Henry viii, from Anne Boleyn to her daughter Elizabeth I. But we also do lots that. That's not Tudors, murderers, mistresses, pirates and witches. Clues in the title, really. So follow not just the Tudors from history. Hit wherever you get your podcasts.
- [32:24]
Kate Lister
So I think that that is true. We're better. But I think we're still on this script of like when he has an orgasm. That's kind of it.
- [32:32]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah.
- [32:33]
Kate Lister
You know, and that's. No, no, no, no, no, no. You get yours. But just while we're speaking about men, sex toys for men. What's their history? Because you think sex toys, you tend to think sex toys for women. I mean, what sex toys are there for men and what are their history?
- [32:50]
Halle Lieberman
So, I mean, the biggest, like, is the artificial vagina or pocket pussy. Did you say of course?
- [32:57]
Kate Lister
Yes.
- [32:58]
Susannah Lipscomb
And you said.
- [32:58]
Halle Lieberman
I said of course, like very knowingly. That is very, very old. I mean, they're ones. I'm sure they're going back further than this, but I've seen like Japanese ones that are like 300 years old that are gorgeous actually. Fabric, I mean, I don't know if they worked well. I'm not saying they were great, like for use, but they looked pretty. And there were also sex dolls made of fabric and things like that. Yeah. So those have almost as long a history as dildos, but they've never been as written about as much. And I think again, they aren't as threatening. So they don't have that kind of cache. Whatever. But in the 50s and 60s, they were sold as marital aids as well. And they're like these vaginas that look like deflated pool toys. That's the best I can. Like the things people wear around their arms, little kids, armbands. Yep, yep. It looks like a deflated version of that in Caucasian, flesh colored. And it's sold as a way to, you know, have sex with your wife. So that's how that was sold in the US in the 60s. But what we have today, there's sex dolls. They're sex robots that are like so low tech. Like, they don't really work well. Like, everyone's afraid of sex robots. And then you look at a video and it's like the head can move, it can't walk, it can't do anything. Like the fear of sex robots outshines the actual reality. But I would say the biggest thing for men are the flashlights.
- [34:30]
Kate Lister
Wow. I mean, yeah, there's a whole big thing in there about sex robots, but like, you know, my phone won't even hold A charge for, like, what are we going to do with a sex robot, for God's sake? But speaking of that, like, what's the future of sex toys? Where's it gonna go? Like, you know, the design, I suppose, is it either goes in or it's something to stick something in. And variations on that. But like futuristic sex toys, what are we talking? What's coming our way?
- [34:58]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah, you know, as far as futuristic, I just spent like three days in a sex toy store actually for a story, and I was looking and what struck me is how old fashioned the technology is. Like, the case looks different. The rabbit vibrator may be in a different color or may be made of silicone, which was a big innovation in the 70s. But the actual, like, eccentric motor used to power it is the same that we've been using for 100 years. So in a way, the change. I mean, the biggest thing in sex toys is like the womanizer, the air, whatever they call it, the air suction vibrators. Do you know the womanizer?
- [35:45]
Kate Lister
I'm not familiar with this, but I'm gonna make some notes, so carry on.
- [35:48]
Halle Lieberman
Okay. Yeah. It's a clitoral stimulator. And so it creates like a suction on the clitoris. And it's almost like you're vacuuming. This is terrible way to describe it because it's not sexy, but it's almost like you're vacuuming your clitoris. But it nice.
- [36:07]
Kate Lister
I like to keep a clean shot.
- [36:09]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah, these are really popular. So that's like the new technology. But the future is, you know, possibly in things like sex robots. But people have been saying that's the future of sex toys forever, and they haven't come to fruition. One of the things that bothers me is sex robots and sex dolls are designed for men, just like in the very few male dolls. So even male dolls designed for gay men are hard to find. And then you see in these sex doll forums, the female users are like, oh, my God, this thing's too heavy. I can't move Ken. You know, I can't move Steve around. Like, he weighs 80 pounds, which is a lot. And so they can't move them around. And they're like, I can't get off on my sex doll because he's just got like a regular dick and there's no clitoral stimulation. So that again, designed and have some of the same issues that, like having sex with a human is. So there aren't any sex dolls designed for women yet. Sex doll technology is really expanding but women have been kind of left out of it. I mean, if it was just designed for women of a clitoral stimulator on the mouth, on the genitals, on the anus, who knows? It would just be like a giant clitoral stimulator with face or something.
- [37:30]
Kate Lister
Do you think that that's really telling that, like, sex dolls for men, they're like a massive success, and when they just made a sex doll for a woman that was just a man, it was shit?
- [37:41]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah, I think it says so much. And not only was it shit, there were all these articles, especially in the uk, was like, male sex dolls with bionic penises are taking over the world. It's like, no, they're not.
- [37:53]
Kate Lister
Like, Jesus, no, they're not. What about something like virtual reality? Is that. Because presumably as soon as they've got that tech, that porn will play a part in that.
- [38:04]
Halle Lieberman
Well, yeah. So porn is huge for VR right now. Huge industry. There's a lot of money.
- [38:10]
Kate Lister
It's already here. Okay.
- [38:12]
Halle Lieberman
And I've got a VR device. Actually, I don't look at porn on it because it's PlayStation. And so maybe I could. But anyway, I play Beat Saber, but that has become huge. And I've interviewed people who make porn for virtual reality and do sort of like Cam Girl, where, like, you hook up your sex device and this porn star is actually controlling it. And I said, well, have you tried, you know, doing camboys for. For women? And that hasn't caught on. They haven't really made an effort. And even, like, I mean, a big problem with VR porn is it's male gaze on steroids. So that's what it is. I know, like, of a few videos created for women, but mostly it's like the man's view of what's sexy. And here are all these women you can have sex with, and it's not designed for women. And I think there's a real missed opportunity because I think women could really get into VR porn.
- [39:06]
Kate Lister
God, yeah. I mean, like, you don't want just like the VR where it's just somebody just getting you off. You want something, like, to be placed into that scene in Pride and Prejudice where Colin Firth was coming out of the pool, and then suddenly the virtual reality takes over and suddenly. Yeah, you're doing him. That would sell, right? Oh, my God, have I given away too much of myself there?
- [39:26]
Halle Lieberman
No, that would be totally amazing. Like, yes, everyone would love. Or Bridgerton or. Yeah, I mean, it could be a big hit, but again, it's been ignored. And that's kind of like my pet peeve is, like, the leading edge of technology for sex products is, again, you know, being directed towards men. Even though, like, the great thing is that vibrators have been accepted on a level that they haven't been accepted since 1950, when we were pretending there was something else. Although still, you could advertise them more widely back then in the States, which is terrible. But, yeah, this leading edge. So there's good and bad. Also. The other thing is Teledildonics, the communicating via apps thanks to the Internet. Like, if you had a vibrator right now and I had this device, I could use my app and make it vibrate.
- [40:17]
Kate Lister
Oh, that's quite clever. Hilarious, but clever. I mean, you'd just be buzzing your friends, like, when they were trying to do a presentation at or something, wouldn't you? That's.
- [40:29]
Halle Lieberman
Yes, that is one of the downsides, because they can be hacked. So when this first came out, people were. No, yeah.
- [40:35]
Kate Lister
Oh, now there's an error. There's a glitch.
- [40:38]
Halle Lieberman
It's a real glitch. Like, you do not want someone hacking into your bot plug. Like, that is a nightmare.
- [40:43]
Kate Lister
No, you don't. Of all the things, my bank details just don't do that.
- [40:50]
Halle Lieberman
But I was just thinking, like, yeah, yeah, bank details will be preferable, but I mean, that could be a good, you know, way to destroy a world leader. Like, a Putin wore a bot plug and we hacked into it during, like, an important meeting. That would be great. But, yeah, so there's issues with that they're trying to fix or they have fixed. And then there's other ones that you and your partner are both wearing a device and you're both controlling it. And so that stuff's kind of cool.
- [41:22]
Kate Lister
That is kind of cool. Jo, I would love to stay here chatting with you, but I've got to kind of wrap things up. But the last question that I'd like to ask you is we've spoken a lot about the history of sex toys, and if anyone wants to know more, Halle's book Buzz, the History of Sex Toys. Have I got that right? Is that the title? Give me the full title. I don't want to get it wrong.
- [41:41]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah, it works. I think it's all right.
- [41:44]
Kate Lister
Yeah, I think it's right. Go and read that, because it's absolutely incredible. But we've looked at the history and we've spoken a bit about what's coming towards the future. But as someone who studies sex toys for a living, is what Is the future that you would like to see for sex toys and women? Like, if you were in charge, what would you roll out?
- [42:02]
Halle Lieberman
So if I were in charge, I think that I would roll out a. A sex doll for women like I described that had all the clitoral stimulators. That would be one of the things I would do. I would also have more research on women's sexuality at universities so that we can like and research on sex tech at universities. And there's some millions of dollars is spent on military tech and technologies of death, as I call them. If we spent even a fraction of that on technologies of sex, we could come up with something new. So I feel like that would be the greatest thing to me is if more research funds were put into this studying women's sexuality and women's sexual devices and men's as well.
- [42:50]
Kate Lister
And men's. But they've been the star of this one for a long time now. I think that. Yeah, that would be amazing, wouldn't it? More research, more money, more resources, and more learning around sexuality and pleasure and women's sexuality in particular.
- [43:03]
Halle Lieberman
Yeah.
- [43:03]
Kate Lister
Amazing. Oh, Halle, thank you so much for joining me today. You are an absolute treat.
- [43:09]
Halle Lieberman
Thank you. This was so much fun. Thank you so much for having me. Like, it was great. I love your book as well. Well, I have it, I read it, I cherish it.
- [43:19]
Kate Lister
Thank you. We should just get together and just talk dick somewhere over a cup of tea. But until then, thank you so much for joining me Betwixt the sheets. Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Hal for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and follow along whatever it is that you get. Your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us@betwixtistoryhit.com We've got episodes on everything from the history of the boob job to medieval sex myths, all coming your way. This podcast was edited by Stuart Beckwith and produced by Sophie G. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again. Betwixt the Sheets. The history of sex scandal in society. A podcast. The history hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.
- [44:17]
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