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- [00:00]
Kate Lister
Hi, I'm your host, Kate Lister. If you would like betwixt the sheets ad free and get early access, sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every single week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.
- [00:27]
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- [00:57]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [01:22]
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- [01:28]
Serron Jones
It's 1998 and Petty Thief Daniel Blanchard is about to carry out the heist of a lifetime, stealing a crown jewel, the last remaining Cece Star. But what happens when ambition becomes obsession? Because what Daniel doesn't know is that no star stays lucky forever. I'm Serron Jones and this is is a most audacious heist. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:00]
Kate Lister
Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. I am me, you are you. And this is Betwixt the Sheets. But before we can go any further on our little adventures together, I do have to let you know that this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. And if you are of a sensitive disposition, well, just sod off now. We don't need you around here crying and whinging and just and causing a scene. Right, on with the show. Out here on the Mongolian Steppe in the 12th century, life is transient tribes. Look for pastures new with their livestock, moving in sync with the seasons. And you know what? It's absolutely brilliant. Bloody exhausting. Can we not just settle and put down some roots? I'm sick of living out of my suitcase, constantly dragging it along the Mongolian plains. But this one family that I've been bunking with seem to absolutely love it. In fact, they all do. So who on earth am I to judge? Not only that, but their son, Timujin seems like quite an ambitious fellow, and he's talking about one day uniting the tribes of Mongolia to create one of the most powerful empires in history. Don't kids say the craziest things? But what will become of this boy who will one day be called Bob?
- [03:19]
Marie Favreau
Bob.
- [03:19]
Kate Lister
Bob. Genghis Khan? Well, I'm ready to find out if you are. Let's do it.
- [03:32]
Ryan Reynolds
What do you look for?
- [03:32]
Monday.com Ad
A man.
- [03:33]
Serron Jones
Oh, money.
- [03:34]
Marie Favreau
Of course.
- [03:35]
Kate Lister
You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.
- [03:37]
Marie Favreau
I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the button.
- [03:49]
Kate Lister
Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.
- [03:52]
Serron Jones
Goodness.
- [03:53]
Kate Lister
What beautiful d. Goodness has nothing to do with it.
- [03:55]
Marie Favreau
During.
- [04:00]
Kate Lister
Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Cait Lister. He's spoken of as one of the really big monsters in history. Even his name, Genghis Khan, which isn't actually his birth name, it's a stage name, means universal leader. So he wasn't shy, but who was the man behind the reputation? Was he really the all conquering, sexually violent man that we've been led to believe he was? Did Genghis Khan have a softer side? And what was 12th century Mongolia really like? Well, joining me today to find out is historian Marie Fevere, to take us back to this world and help me find out. So without further ado, let's crack on. Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Marie Favreau. How are you doing?
- [04:53]
Marie Favreau
I'm doing very well, thank you.
- [04:56]
Kate Lister
I'm so excited to have you here because we have never, ever spoken about Genghis Khan on this podcast, which seems a spectacular oversight. And you are the author of. I'll give it the full title, the how the Mongols Changed the World. So, as a starter question, what made you want to write a book about the mongol empire? And, Mr. Khan, thank you for your question.
- [05:22]
Marie Favreau
Well, actually, it goes back to when I was a student in history in Paris. I start learning about big empires. You know, I learned about the Ottoman emp, the Abbasid Empire, the Roman Empire. Obviously. And then suddenly I heard about some Mongol empire and it was all new for me. And when I start looking for books for information, well, it was 20 years ago, right? But actually I found nothing. I mean, everybody said, oh, we have nothing. This was a nomadic empire. Maybe there was not so many like written sources. We don't have enough information. And it's an obscure empire. So it triggered my interest very honestly. And so like, okay, I'm going to find some information. So I start traveling all around Central Asia basically and Russia to find information. And I'm still traveling and living in Central Asia, but I found a lot on this Mongol empire.
- [06:18]
Kate Lister
So who were the Mongols then? Who was the Mongol Empire? Because I think most of my knowledge of Genghis Khan is informed by Bill and Ted's excellent adventure, which is not very helpful here. So who were they?
- [06:32]
Marie Favreau
Okay, yes, sure. Well, then look, the first time we see the name Mongol in the sources, historical sources, is around the 12th century. Actually, we see it very rarely before, but it's really in the 12th century that we see this name appearing as name of a kind of new nomadic people, very active in what is Mongolia today. So basically the eastern Eurasia. Right. So it's north, north of China and east of Central Asia in this area. Very cold, lot of steppes, nomadic people living there, herders. So we see this name appearing, Mongols. And we see also that apparently there were a lot of interestingly state experience there. Old state experience, like empires existed before the 12th century, not with the name Mongols. It was associated with other names like Turks, like Uyghur maybe. You know, some of our listeners have heard of those names. Turks come from eastern Mongolia. They come from the east of. Yeah, and they build empires there. So when Mongols appearing around the 12th century, they were before strong experience of state organization, strong armies, conquest, trade. Also a lot of diplomacy with China and with Central Asia. So it sounds new to us Westerners. But if you think about the 12th century, this area and the world already had a lot of experience. And that's where Genghis Khan is born.
- [08:07]
Kate Lister
So the Mongols, they are. They're nomadic, they value horse riding. I'm sorry, this is going to sound really ignorant of me now, but did they build towns and cities or were they just always on the move?
- [08:21]
Marie Favreau
That's a very important question. So actually it's both. They are on the move. They move with seasons. You know, it makes sense. Weather is bad here, you move there. Right. And also you are big herds. So the animals, they move with you and they need good Grass. They need new water, fresh water. So you need to move them. So the movies make sense. But what is interesting is they also built cities. They built monuments. They are interested in permanent structures. They don't live in those structures. They don't live in those cities. They make other people live in them, but they don't stay in them themselves. They finance. They are happy to pass through them. Sometimes they organize like ceremonies, like rituals in cities, but they don't live in them. So we historians and archaeologists in Mongolia, when we work in Mongolia today, we find the traces of these old archaeological remains. Like old cities, you know. But we also know that these people were nomads and never wanted to try to settle down in cities. They never wanted to be closing to four walls. They still continue their life as herders. They like. They love and value the freedom of the life in the steppe. And they are also clever because, you know, in this area, winter is super cold and summer is super hot. So it makes sense to move, you know, just to sort of escape the difficulties of weather.
- [09:46]
Kate Lister
So was there one huge Mongol tribe or multiple, smaller. I'm just trying to get a sense of how the empire worked. Was there like select groups that fought one another, or did they get along or how was it set up?
- [10:01]
Marie Favreau
We know in 12th century there were a lot of fights among smaller groups. We can call them tribes. Some people like to say people. There are a lot of names, but they also have their own names. Mongol is just one among other names that we see at that time. There's another name that is famous, which is Tatar. Tatar name is famous too. But, you know, they were Kongira people. So all these people, they have names, they shape groups or tribes, if you prefer. And they have alliance, they have fights. It's a very lively area, politically speaking. They don't fight all the time. They also trade among themselves. They have some differences, but they understand each other. Like they have some common rules. Hospitality, for instance, is important. The fact that you're a herder, the fact that you live with the seasons is common to all those people. They also have some ritual, like religious rituals. They believe in the spirit, spirits of the land and the spirit of nature. Lakes, river, mountains, they all. They have all this in common, you see. But you know, it's. There's no unity. And Genghis Khan is going to change that because he's going to build up the unity of the tribes, the unity of the. Of the nomads in the steppe. And that's something really new. And it's going to Take him a lot of time. Probably more than 20 years.
- [11:23]
Kate Lister
All right, so let's talk about. You said Genghis and I say Genghis. Which one is it? Because I don't want to get it wrong.
- [11:29]
Marie Favreau
Well, look, I would say Genghis is correct, but if we want to say Genghis is fine too. Yeah, but Genghis. Genghis Khan. And Genghis Khan, you know, is a title. It's not his first name, actually. He has a name, isn't it? Yeah, his name is Temujin. Temujin. It means something like blacksmith, and it's his real name. And Genghis Khan is a stage name. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So we can call him Telegen. Ooh.
- [11:57]
Kate Lister
I wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of him, though, because he does have a reputation as quite a fearsome historical character, doesn't he? And he's sort of one of those iconic historical characters that we think we know things about, but we almost certainly don't. And he has a reputation for wildness and savagery. And am I right in thinking that George R.R. martin based the Dothraki off what he thought the Mongol hordes were? So I've got a bit of, like, that's in there as well. Can you clear some of this up for us and tell us, first of all, where did Genghis Khan come from? What is his origin story? Because if he wasn't born Genghis Khan, he was born blacksmith.
- [12:40]
Marie Favreau
He was born blacksmith, yeah. But you see, blacksmith in this world at that time, it's. It's already an elite title. It means you can work with meta. It means you're coming from an maybe ironsmith family. It means you're coming from a good family. It's not anyone can be, you know, pretend being a blacksmith and blacksmith. Metal means, you know, iron, it meaning weapons, it means wealth, it means being strong, all this. So his father is not like a king, he's more a local chieftain, we think. But he might have had a famous grandfather. We're not sure of that, but we think maybe his grandfather was a very, very powerful man. So he's not coming from anywhere in the step, he's coming from aristocracy. Like, he's already, like, from warrior family, and he's somebody when he's born. But then his father died when he was young and the family lost control of the tribe, and the Mongol just basically left his mother when he was around 10 years old. He was really alone with his mother and brothers and sisters, and he had really a Harsh time. This has been describing the sources, trying to fight for, you know, to survive in the steppe and being, you know, has been abandoned by his own people. So the idea is to show he's coming from this aristocracy, but at the same time he's a self made man also, you know, he had to fight to reach the throne and to build up what would become this special character, just Genghis Khan. And this title, Genghis Khan basically is completely a non title because at that time in the steppe or even in medieval worlds, you know, titles are reused, you know, Caesar, you know, I don't know, a lot of title are like circulates. This title is for us historians, as we can see, looking at sources is completely new. He invented his own title. So I like this character is someone who's like, he has his hereditary, he has his tradition empire before him, the great Turks and all, but at the same time he has to build up something new. And so the combination of both is very interesting, very dynamic.
- [14:53]
Kate Lister
So he's born and it seems like there's a sort of a warrior lineage. He's born from a good family, then they lose control and they're kind of cast out when he's a young boy. Is that right?
- [15:07]
Marie Favreau
Exactly, yeah.
- [15:08]
Kate Lister
How did you get to be the chieftain, the king, the ruler in these cultures? Is it an inherited right or is it I'm the strongest, so I win?
- [15:17]
Marie Favreau
I know it's very interesting. There are different elements, so. Or okay, you need to be well born. That's clear, it's there. But you have to fight, you have to show you're available to your people. Yeah. So the idea is like you cannot be a kid, you cannot be a very old man. Neither. You have to be in between because you have to be able, physically able, like to go on the battlefield or to negotiate in terms of diplomacy, or to also make children at descendancy. So you have to be really in the full power, like physically and mentally. That's also there. So being well born is not enough. It's a good thing, but it's not enough. And also when we say being well born, it's important to understand it's not only through your father line, but through your mother line as well. The mother is very important. And also the generation, the pedigree through the mother line is absolutely there. So you have to show you have both and then you have to show you're able on the battlefield. Because the difference with Western Europe is it's not only about the eldest son in a family. So if you have a brother or even a cousin or nephew who is super able but then you have to fight with this person because it's not necessary. The eldest son, it can be any son, any son. Clever, physically powerful and also able probably to create some diplomacy and to be well accepted and appreciated by others. This is also super important. If you act like too harshly to your people, they're going to leave you at some point and no matter this freedom to leave.
- [16:58]
Ryan Reynolds
Right?
- [16:58]
Marie Favreau
Yeah.
- [16:59]
Kate Lister
Wow. So this sounds like quite a harsh childhood. I don't know, I wasn't expecting Genghis Khan to have had a comfortable, well adjusted childhood. But this sounds like it's quite, it's quite brutal. It was and it sounds like there were some points where he might not have survived. So what happens from this little boy that's been cast out? How does he become the warrior?
- [17:23]
Marie Favreau
There are different stacks. One, his father before he died, married his son Temujin to two young girl, I mean young. She was one year older than his son. So they were at that time around 9 and 10 years old. It means, it doesn't mean the marriage really happened but they were pro max to one another, you understand? And this girl Berthe, she's going to be, she's going to really support her fiance and then husband and her family is kind of a rich family. So she's going to bring some wealth to Chingis to Temujin and Taimuchin is going to use the wealth. So this wealth at that time is actually. It's like a pelt, it's a fur, it's a black, black skin, black fur. It means millions at that time.
- [18:10]
Kate Lister
Wow.
- [18:11]
Marie Favreau
So it's not, it's not cash but it's like cash, right. It's this black sabot fur. It's a fur coat if you want. And this fur coat, his wife's going to give it to him, he's going to use it and it's going to buy his first very important ally by giving this coat to him. And this king, local king, called on Khan, he has a number of name sources, was like the local ruler, local king in the steppe from Keri people. So another type of people, Christian nomadic people. And he was very powerful. He was a good friend of Temujin's father. And Temujin promised, said look, I give you this fur, this fur quote that means be my ally. We have to fight together and can you fight with me? Can you help me? And since that time they start to sort of work together and that's the first step I would say. But it's interesting because you look at the first step, it's not a military step. It's a diplomacy, diplomatical step. Why so? And also, it's how Genghis use whatever is in his hands. So he got his marriage, he got the fur coat, then he got the first strong ally. Then he will move on always and always renegotiate his position, never get killed. He's like, okay, I have this now. I want more. And I will build up on what I have and renegotiate his relationship to his neighbors, to his allies, enemies. And that's where you see the character taking shape.
- [19:39]
Kate Lister
So he's got a fur coat, which by all accounts was a very impressive fur coat. When does he take the name Genghis and what does it mean?
- [19:49]
Marie Favreau
Well, we think the name was taken around at the end of the 12th century, maybe. I mean, there's a key date which is 1206. Okay, it's interesting, 1206. It's the date where we know is already known as Genghis Khan. And he has made already his work. Like he unified many tribes in Mongolia. But he's not young. He is already something like 40. He has already a long experience. And that's where you can see that it's going to develop a second career. And he's going to go out of Mongolia with his troops, go to China and Central Asia. We can talk about this later. But then 1206, we know this name, become famous, and he sort of say, this is my title. And we think this title means something like maybe world or universal leader. I mean, Han is a king, he's an emperor, so he's a leader. Genghis is more complex to interpret. It might mean the sea. Like, at that time, there's this idea that around the world there's an ocean which sort of goes all around the world. So Genghis might mean the name of this ocean, like the ocean around the world, which would mean actually the king of the world. Right. So that is an interpretation, but we are not sure. But that's certainly part of his maybe ambition not to be king of the whole world. Because what is the whole world for these people of that time? What do they know about the world? But certainly to be the king among his people and the king of the nomads, that's also something you can see dearly for people at that time. The most important in the world are nomadic people. And that's where, you know, Genghis kind of wants to build up. You know, his name and also to sort of create a dynasty, push his family to be like the leader, the leader family of the nomads in the whole scat.
- [21:48]
Kate Lister
Am I right in thinking that his first wife Bharti was kidnapped and that you have to go and rescue her?
- [21:55]
Marie Favreau
Absolutely. So kidnapping women, something that happened in the Stepata time, we see it also first with Changi's mother. Changi's mother, or she had been kidnapped by Changi's father. She was promised to someone else and she has been kidnapped. So we know that it happened. But the thing is, marriage at that time is very much kind of a political alliance. So if you want to sort of develop your power, if you want to grow, politically speaking, also your wife is super important and especially your first wife. So that's why on the one hand, for Genghis, Bertie was very important. She gave him his fair coat. As you know, she was loyal to him because they were compromised to each other in their youth and she made tasteful to him. But then the people of his mother, who lost his mother because she was kidnapped from them, the merkids people, they decided to get their revenge and they capture his wife because of this, you know, his father and mother story. So this whole revenge thing is interesting. But most importantly, I would say is Genghis really had a long, long fight to get her back. The idea is not, okay, well, I lost my wife and then I can have other wives. It's no, I want her back. And that was also one of key aspect of his alliance with the Buddha gave the fur coat to okay, I want my wife back. So there are different stories in sources. There were some fight, some battles, but also negotiations behind it. And she came back to him. And they will always remain in all the forces, as we can see, a couple life. They will always remain the couple. They will have four sons together. And the four sons they have together are going to be like founders of new dynasties in all Central Asia, in Northern China, in Mongolia. So this is a real beginning of the story of the families, the story of a couple. So you cannot study Genghispan without studying Bertin, his first wife. They are really so together since the beginning. And although, of course, you know, sources, historical sources, official sources, you know, it's not always the truth, but it means that for the people of the time, it was important at least to portray them as a couple and to show how she was so important to her, a power couple. Yeah.
- [24:27]
Kate Lister
I'll be back with Marie after this short break.
- [24:45]
Genghis Khan
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- [25:16]
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- [26:17]
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- [26:57]
Kate Lister
He fell out with his brothers, didn't he? There was a lot of fighting and going to war with his brothers.
- [27:03]
Marie Favreau
Yep. Well, it said in his sources that he killed his half brother. Was the eldest actually in the family, Right? For fighting over fish?
- [27:13]
Kate Lister
Of course.
- [27:14]
Marie Favreau
Yeah. The idea is really to make people understand they have a harsh life. They have to share the foods. And when you share the food, you share the food according to the hierarchy of the family. And there's a fight because Genghis and his and his eldest brother, they don't have the Same mother. So Genghis is not the eldest in a way. So he has to show, okay, there's no negotiation. I'm the leader. So that's. I think that's behind the story. So we don't know if he really killed his half brother. But it's what it means behind is like, there's no negotiation about who's the leader.
- [27:52]
Kate Lister
It's about respect.
- [27:53]
Marie Favreau
Exactly. Yeah, it's all about respect. And also spoiled. I mean, it's also when you get a victory, when you share, you share, but you share according to people's rank. That's also the other thing. So everybody got a share, but according to birth rank or, you know, social rank, that's also behind the score.
- [28:13]
Kate Lister
Now, Genghis Khan is known for a lot of things. He's got a reputation for extreme violence and, like, bloodthirsty going into battle. You wouldn't want to mess with him. How fair is that? Would you have said that he was more violent and aggressive than other people? Or is that well deserved?
- [28:32]
Marie Favreau
Yeah, that's very important question and also hard to answer. Well, I would say it's not totally fair in the sense that. Why we would have been more, you know, bloodthirsty than others in history. Even Alexander the Great or, I don't know, any. Any tax or we want to pick up, you know, from. From the past. He's clearly not after blood. When you look at his action, his career, even. Everything we know from sources is his idea is certainly to build up an empire. So he's a kind of harsh ruler in that sense. But he looks for diplomacy. He looks for negotiation. He looks also for. And sometimes he made mistakes. And he acknowledged he made mistakes. And interesting. His mother, for instance, or his wife would be presented in. Sources are telling him, you know, you made mistakes. You either the mother saying you killed your half brother. This is horrible. How can you do that? You have to be all together. We are one family. Or his wife also advising him to do this and that. And you can see that he listened to that. He's not someone who is sort of crazy and, you know, just going for finance.
- [29:42]
Kate Lister
It's not the part of a wild person.
- [29:44]
Marie Favreau
Exactly. So now the very like negative part of Jagestan also is from later time because during colonial period, also in the west and one more time in the west and in Russia and China, the idea that nomads could have been, at some point, you know, the rulers of the world or would even their own countries, was not that well appreciated. And they looked into sources to find anything negative about him. But the truth is, yeah, I mean, there have been war, there's been violence. That is absolutely uncertain, but it's not worse than another. And even we know that he said, you, I want new subjects. I don't want dead people. So, you know, if you conquer a city, you need to, okay, make prisoners if you want. But what I want is tax taxpayers. It's not slaves who are dying, you know, because this makes no sense. So this is more rational than, you know, the portrait, the popular portraits that has been built, movies and stuff like that.
- [30:43]
Kate Lister
I can't imagine that you would be able to successfully build an empire without subjugating and being quite cruel and being quite a brutal leader, because they all were. But he wasn't mad, which is kind of how he's often portrayed as this wild, savage, completely crazy person. He wasn't that at all.
- [31:03]
Marie Favreau
No, absolutely not. And he's also super interesting because he can really move from, as you said, like battlefield to diplomacy, negotiation. You know, he can. He had different faces. Right. And I think also it's interesting to look at what are the goals? You know, he's not after. The idea is not, I want this to educate the world. He never said, oh, we have no tracing forces where he said he wanted to be the leader of the world. What he wants is certainly to be developed a nomad, but that's different. Right. And also we have to remind that imagine draft, 13th century. What is more precious at that time than men and women, than people. People are the most precious things. So what Genghis is after is to enroll more people. He wants to integrate people. So. And to do that, of course, you can just. And make prisoners. But you also have to convince people, because Genghis and nomadic leaders are not stupid. They know that, you know, if you force people, I'm still going to last. And they always think about the future. And this is really clear, you know, that's really the nomadic mind.
- [32:11]
Kate Lister
A lot of people might be quite surprised to hear about Genghis wife, Bertie. Not that he was married. I don't think that'll surprise anyone. But the idea that there was at one point, one wife. Because if there's something else that Genghis is known for, it's for being an absolute sex rampaging dirtbag, can't keep it in his pants, having it away with absolutely everything. He has that reputation of sexual aggression and sexual assault is attached to him as well. So can I ask you, how far is that warranted? Did he have more than one Wife. And where does that reputation come from?
- [32:48]
Marie Favreau
Yeah, this is so interesting. Okay, so yes, he had more than one wife. So in this nomadic world, there's no restriction on number of marriages. So you can have as many wives as you can afford. Because of course, you have to be fair to them and, you know, uniquely share with them. So only leaders have several wives. Like you can see later on in the Muslim world. That's one thing. Other interesting thing is, of course, that is no religious restriction restriction. Like in, you know, Christian, Christian world, there's religious restriction. You know, it doesn't mean that people have sexual restriction, doesn't mean that socially they can have only one. So in this Mongol world, you can have. Socially you can have more, even more than four, which is like the number and the Islamic world. Right. But only the first one or the primary one can really provide the hair. The son that are going to be fully legit to get the throne, they are coming from the couple. So the couple is super important official. You see the couple everywhere in miniatures that, you know, there's a lot of images depicting the couple being left in love on the throne. And it's true, they officially show themselves as a couple. So, like if you are an ambassador, you come to Genghis to present, you know, a gift. You're coming from far away country, you will see him and you will see his wife, his first wife, together on the same throne. They have a throne with two, you know, two seats. So that's this idea of, you know, some sort of equal standing between the wife. So that's one aspect. Of course, at the same time, they are otherwise. And these are. The wives are to be important as well, politically speaking. But they are under the authority of the first wife. So Bert is the first wife. Normally she controls the other wives. That's how it works super hard imagine. Yeah, okay. But last thing is concerning, like sexual, like assault and stuff like that. So this is coming from later narratives reporting this himself. We have absolutely no description in any sources about raping a woman or just even saying it's good to do it or sort of letting his armies having. Enjoying women like freely. It's never there.
- [35:03]
Kate Lister
No evidence of that.
- [35:05]
Marie Favreau
Not evidence of that at all. For him, that's.
- [35:07]
Kate Lister
That's amazing.
- [35:08]
Marie Favreau
But imagine for medieval period, just the fact that he can have as many women as he wants in terms of wives, right. Or concubines already is like. It means he's crazy sexually. Right. It means there's a limit. Which actually is not true. There are limits, but you know, it was seen as such then also of course in natan sources, especially with one of his son. We have description of rape during Mongol conquest in different places. And it's clear that unfortunately like you know, conquest armies, they, you know, led by men and they, they were. Yeah, it's sure there was some sexual violence. Certainly, of course you cannot deny this, but it's not something that is supported by Genghis or, you know, saying that he's good, he's good to act like this. Obviously not. And then finally, of course I have to say as a historian, I'd love to know more about real sexual life or of the time or even love he might have or not for his wife and the love she might have or not for him. In sources it said that they had a feeling for unfavor. I mean it looks like so and at least they really worked together as a couple in the same direction for a period of time. But I have to add that we know when Genghis died, we don't know when to that and she was the first baby. So it means that at some point she became less important or she disappeared. We don't know how she disappeared. We don't know what happened to her at the end.
- [36:40]
Kate Lister
Someone asked the other wives.
- [36:41]
Marie Favreau
Exactly. So I think, yeah, there's a lot of mysteries but you have to keep in mind that you know, whether maybe something happened to her at some point.
- [36:55]
Kate Lister
I'll be back with Marie after this short break.
- [37:14]
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- [38:25]
Kate Lister
In 2003 there was a study, wasn't there, of Asian men and they found that 8% of all men in Asia descended from one gene source. And it was speculated that that was Genghis Khan, which I suppose hasn't helped his reputation as a top shagger. What can you tell me about that piece of research?
- [38:49]
Marie Favreau
Well, that's very questionable and plus number of reasons, although it's interesting. First of all I have to say I have to tell that we don't have Jesus body. We don't know where Jesus has been buried.
- [39:01]
Kate Lister
We don't know.
- [39:02]
Marie Favreau
No, it's a sickness that was kept until today. There are expectations and interpretation and ideas. Maybe it's in Mongolia and Burhan Khaldun. Some other people say I have other ideas. But in any case we don't have David's DNA. That's the first thing I want to say. So anything else? Yes, so it's. But it's true now that we work more and more on DNA that there's a connection between many people in Central Asia, from Mongolia to Hungary let's say and they have some common origins somewhere. So people guess because it was so easy and they say ah, it comes from Genghisan spirit and from him himself, you know. Yeah, maybe, but no way we can prove it at that point. So we need more studies. Also I heard from colleagues we're working on DNA that we don't have enough studies on European, you know, also regions. But it might have been the same like not that they are all coming from Genghis at all, but that they might have some common origin at some points. So we need to work more on that. But I think what is key to understanding pure historian is that being from Genghis world for a very long time, until at least until the 18th century, the best thing that could happen to you because it's the best pedigree, it means you're coming from the elite of elite. So people would anyway claim that they were coming from Genghis. It would have been the best. If you want to be a ruler, if you want to be a lawyer, if you want to be stuck respected in all Central Asia. And they were dynasties coming from genghis until the 18th century in many places. So it's funny because until late 18th century it was really a blessing to say or to prove to dukes and Jinghu's family and then colonial period, modern time, it's like a shame. And now Today we are more balanced.
- [41:03]
Kate Lister
So final question then. How did Genghis die?
- [41:07]
Marie Favreau
What took him out that's so important that we still guess he died not long. Okay, probably 60 something, which at that time means, you know, long career and so on. We know he died in 1227. We know he died probably during summer, probably August. And at that moment his armies were in what is now Western China, Central Western China Tangut Kingdom of that time Tango bailout against the Mongols So Mongols were fat chicken and fighting at all. We know he probably he was as being injured at some point or maybe was sick. Some of the sources say maybe he was sick. So some people say, ah, the plague, but we don't know. There were plenty of terrible disease at that time. So one of them either injured, either drink price, either sick, but he was not young. So it's kind of normal. But interesting thing is they hide. At that time they decided to hide the fact that he died because first of all they wanted to continue their conquest. And it's hard. Nico did. The other reason is he had no idea about succession. It was not clear who would really be the successor. And he had also at that time, three sons. One was dead already. But then there were discussion about that. And last, they wanted to. There was some taboo around the body. They wanted nobody to approach his body, to touch his bones, his flesh. He was like almost becoming a God. So they sort of found us a secret place where he had been buried and protected. And it's still today, you know, super protected. And he thought, no, we get. But we're not sure. And I think it's. I think maybe among all the leaders of the world, he's the one alone who shares so much mystery how he died and where he has been, you know, buried. That's why his DNA remains also. Big question mark.
- [43:04]
Kate Lister
Don't know. Marie, you have been fascinating to talk to. Thank you so much for coming to tell us about this very misunderstood but still quite violent man. If people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?
- [43:17]
Marie Favreau
I think they can find my book on the Horde. They can also find me online. I work in an institute and I live in Kyrgyzstan, Bishkek, so I live in Central Asia. It was really the core of Genghis Khan's empire where I live now and I conduct my research there. And they can also find some documentaries I've been part of on Smithsonian Channel. Genghis Khan's Mongoya. I've been part of this documentary.
- [43:40]
Kate Lister
That's fantastic. Oh, thank you so much. You have been wonderful to talk to.
- [43:45]
Marie Favreau
Thank you so much, Kate. It was such a pleasure for me.
- [43:53]
Kate Lister
Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to Marie for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hi, then you can email us@betwixtistoryhit.com Coming up, we've got episodes on the sex lives of the Spartans and a special collaboration with the Cautionary Tales podcast all coming your way. This podcast was edited and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets the History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.
- [44:37]
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It's 1998, and Petty Thief Daniel Blanchard is about to carry out the heist of a lifetime, stealing a crown jewel, the last remaining CC Star. But what happens when ambition becomes obsession? Because what Daniel doesn't know is that no star stays lucky forever. I'm Serron Jones, and this is a most audacious heist. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.