History of Red Lipstick

Summary

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society Episode Summary: History of Red Lipstick Release Date: January 14, 2025

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Introduction

In the "History of Red Lipstick" episode of Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society, host Kate Lister delves into the vibrant and multifaceted history of red lipstick. Joined by guest Rachel Felder, a journalist and author of Red Lipstick: An Ode to a Beauty Icon, the episode explores the cultural, political, and social significance of red lipstick across different eras. From its ancient origins to its role in political movements and Hollywood glamour, the discussion reveals how a simple cosmetic item embodies power, rebellion, and identity.

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Origins of Red Lipstick

Rachel Felder begins by tracing the roots of red lipstick back to approximately 3,500 BC in the Middle East, where early civilizations used substances like red ochre to adorn their lips. This rudimentary form of lipstick served not only aesthetic purposes but also as a social marker of class.

[08:39] Rachel Felder: "The beginning of reddening the lips goes back to about 3,500 BC in the Middle East."

Felder explains that in ancient Egypt, both civilians and royalty like Cleopatra utilized crushed beets, known as cochinel, to achieve a crimson hue, a pigment still prevalent in modern lipsticks.

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Evolution of Lipstick Manufacturing

The guest outlines the technological advancements in lipstick production, highlighting Guerlain's introduction of the first modern lipstick in 1884, packaged in a tin tube. The transformation continued with the invention of the bullet-shaped lipstick in the early 1900s, designed to mimic World War I bullets, and the push-up tube in 1924, which streamlined application and portability.

[08:39] Rachel Felder: "People would grind up red ochre and apply it to their lips."

[10:12] Rachel Felder: "The push-up tube was invented in 1924, making lipstick more accessible and user-friendly."

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Red Lipstick as a Symbol of Power and Rebellion

Rachel Felder discusses the dual nature of red lipstick as both a symbol of femininity and empowerment. The episode delves into how red lipstick became intertwined with feminist movements, particularly the suffragettes, who adopted it as a mark of female strength and autonomy.

[12:21] Rachel Felder: "Red lipstick is powerful, but it's feminine power. It's not just saying, 'Don't mess with me,' it's saying, 'I'm a woman. Don't mess with me.'"

Felder cites the strategic distribution of red lipstick by Elizabeth Arden during suffragette marches, positioning it as both a unifying symbol and a subtle act of defiance against societal norms.

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Red Lipstick in Hollywood and Pop Culture

The conversation shifts to the golden age of Hollywood, where red lipstick became synonymous with glamour and sexuality. Marilyn Monroe emerges as the quintessential red-lip icon, using the glossy red lip to communicate allure and confidence both on and off the screen.

[24:55] Rachel Felder: "There's no easier way to say I'm sexy than to wear a glossy red lip. Marilyn Monroe understood that better than anybody."

Felder contrasts the matte and glossy finishes of red lipstick, noting how different styles convey varying degrees of power and sexuality. The episode also touches on earlier Hollywood eras, explaining how even in black-and-white films, actresses used highly pigmented lip colors to ensure their lips stood out on screen.

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Lipstick During the World Wars

Rachel Felder highlights the critical role of red lipstick during World War II, where it served as a morale booster for women entering the workforce. Despite wartime rationing, red lipstick was one of the few cosmetics not restricted, as leaders like Winston Churchill recognized its importance in maintaining women's spirits.

[22:10] Rachel Felder: "Winston Churchill understood that and didn't ration red lipstick when many other things were rationed because he knew how important it was for the morale of women."

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Modern Perspectives and Future of Red Lipstick

The episode concludes with a discussion on the contemporary significance of red lipstick. Felder observes that in today's inclusive and diverse society, red lipstick continues to be a versatile form of self-expression. It remains a statement of confidence and style, embraced by various generations and even men, reflecting its enduring legacy.

[31:21] Rachel Felder: "I love seeing men in red lipstick. And I love seeing a younger generation of women feeling like red lipstick is an expression of power and style and savvy and success."

Felder offers practical advice for listeners hesitant to embrace red lipstick, suggesting starting with tinted balms or lip stains to gradually build confidence.

[32:55] Rachel Felder: "Buy some cheap ones and play and figure out the shade and the format and the texture that suits you the best."

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Notable Quotes

• Rachel Felder [08:39]: "The beginning of reddening the lips goes back to about 3,500 BC in the Middle East."
• Rachel Felder [12:21]: "Red lipstick is powerful, but it's feminine power. It's not just saying, 'Don't mess with me,' it's saying, 'I'm a woman. Don't mess with me.'"
• Rachel Felder [24:55]: "There's no easier way to say I'm sexy than to wear a glossy red lip. Marilyn Monroe understood that better than anybody."
• Rachel Felder [31:21]: "I love seeing men in red lipstick. And I love seeing a younger generation of women feeling like red lipstick is an expression of power and style and savvy and success."
• Rachel Felder [32:55]: "Buy some cheap ones and play and figure out the shade and the format and the texture that suits you the best."

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Conclusion

The "History of Red Lipstick" episode offers an insightful exploration into how a simple cosmetic item transcends mere beauty, embodying layers of cultural significance, political symbolism, and personal identity. Through the expert insights of Rachel Felder and the engaging narration of Kate Lister, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of red lipstick's enduring legacy and its place in the tapestry of societal evolution.

For more episodes exploring the intersections of history, sex, and scandal, subscribe to Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society on your preferred podcast platform.

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This summary was crafted based on the transcript of the episode and aims to capture the essence and key discussions without including advertisements or non-content segments.

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

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[Rachel Felder]

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[Kate Lister]

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[Rachel Felder]

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[Kate Lister]

Hello my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister.

[Rachel Felder]

Welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets.

[Kate Lister]

But before we can get going, I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast spoken by other adults about adult things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. And we need to tell you that because if you happen to keep listening and you get upset, well then that might be on us. But if we tell you, that one's on you.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right.

[Kate Lister]

On with the show. Welcome to the golden age of Hollywood, darling Betwixters. As we arrive on the red carpet with stars such as Rita Hayworth and oh look, there's Marilyn. Hi Marilyn. Or Miss Monroe to you. There's one thing that is impossible to ignore. The bold red lipstick. It's as iconic as any of the stars who wear it. And yes, I am including myself as a star because I love a red lip. But what are the origins of this standout look and what's its impact being throughout history? Well, pucker up because we are going to find out.

[Unnamed Guest]

What do you look for in a man? Oh, money. Of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness. What beautiful damn goodness has nothing to do with it, dearie.

[Rachel Felder]

Hello and welcome back To Betwixt the.

[Kate Lister]

Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society. With me, Kate Lister. I will make no secret of the fact that I am a huge, huge fan of red lipstick. I love it, and I join a lineage of women, and I'm certain, actually a lot of men, too, who've enhanced their look with a splash of red throughout the ages. Cleopatra, Queen Elizabeth I and Marilyn Monroe.

[Rachel Felder]

To name but three.

[Kate Lister]

What made red lip stand the test of time? What was it made from in its earliest uses? And what role did it have to play in the Second World War? Well, joining me today is Rachel Felder, journalist, author, and fellow fabulous wearer of red lipstick. And she's going to help us find out more about this makeup, essentially. And if cosmetic histories are your bag, then why not scroll back and listen to our episode on beauty culture in the Renaissance with none other than the fabulous Jill Burke. Lippy at the ready. Betwixtas, let's crack on.

[Rachel Felder]

Hello, and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Rachel Felder. How are you doing?

[Unnamed Guest]

I'm doing so well, and I get to talk about my most favorite subject in the world today, so I'm excited.

[Rachel Felder]

It's one of my favorite subjects, too. I am a red lipstick girly. I absolutely loved this stuff. And you are the author of let's give it its full title, Red Lipstick An Ode to a Beauty Icon. So the first question, what made you want to write this book?

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, I've been writing about beauty, including lipstick, for several decades, for a lot of outlets, but mostly the New York Times. And I've been wearing red lipstick personally since I was a teenager. And for me, it was a way to rebel, because in the era that I started to wear lipstick young teenage years, like many people, the look was that women had very narrow lips and they wore little bubblegum pink, pale, shiny lipstick. And I have these very full lips that. That never looked good on.

[Rachel Felder]

She does. I'm looking at them right now, everybody.

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, bless her.

[Rachel Felder]

Very full lips.

[Unnamed Guest]

Bless you. And I also was very, very, very into punk rock music, including female singers like Debbie Harry and Susie Sue. That led me to wearing bright lipstick as a type of rebellion. And for the first couple years, I wore fuchsia and orange, anything bright. And then I realized that the red somehow had the rebellious streak, but also was super fashionable and classic. It's like, somehow modern and classic. And as it became kind of a de facto trademark for me, I delved into, even before I started writing, the sociology of it and the semiotics of it. And it seems to me that to study red lipstick is to study cultural history.

[Rachel Felder]

Yes.

[Unnamed Guest]

And so that's the long version of how I got to writing the book.

[Rachel Felder]

I adore red lipstick for all the reasons that you've just said. Occasionally I try and go back to a nude or a pink or something, and there's just something in my brain that's like, nope, I want it to be red. I have this theory that even if you have nothing else on your face, if you put red lipstick on, you look better.

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, I think your theory is completely correct. And my testing of your theory is the dog run twice a day. Because I feel like, you know, good that I put on the lipstick in the lift without looking in a mirror. And people do think you're together. I mean, in my book, there are comments from several people, including Paloma Picasso, who admitted in when I interviewed her that she was quite shy, actually. And the lipstick, in part was. The red lipstick was something she wore so that people would think that she was confident when actually she kind of wasn't so confident.

[Rachel Felder]

Wow.

[Unnamed Guest]

I think for many people, it's both a sword and a shield.

[Rachel Felder]

Oh, I like that.

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, thank you. Maybe I should be a writer when I grow up.

[Rachel Felder]

Maybe you should give it a go.

[Unnamed Guest]

Indeed. But there is this thing of people assume that you're confident and kind of ballsy if you're wearing it. And I believe that's one of the reasons why many people, many women, would wear red lipstick to go into a meeting, that it makes them feel polished. But it's interesting you say that about putting on the red lip that you can't imagine not doing it, because I think the other element which connects into modern history is that many of us have a memory of a parent, a gran, an aunt that wore the red lipstick, perhaps to get dressed up, to go out, or perhaps just because in the era that they were in their prime, wearing red lipstick was a thing for me, it was my gran, she wore red lipstick every single day. And I sort of aspire to being a mix of her and Elizabeth TAYLOR in the 1950s when I put on my red lipstick.

[Rachel Felder]

Oh, wow. It has a really, really long history as well. I mean, cosmetics has an incredibly long history. As long as there have been people with faces, we've been putting stuff on them to try and look better. But what is some of the earliest evidence that you have found or been aware of of people putting red, specifically red, on their lips?

[Unnamed Guest]

I did a lot of research for the book. I spoke to historians and scientists and Cosmetics experts and many, many other types of people in addition. So the beginning of reddening the lips, we'll get to calling it lipstick in a second. But the beginning of reddening the lips goes back to about 3,500 BC in the middle East.

[Rachel Felder]

That's pretty far.

[Unnamed Guest]

It's pretty far. And people then would redden their lips, often with red ochre. So it was more of a sort of rusty red. And the color that was left on the lips, that is you would grind it up. And as time went on, the color of red your lips were became a delineator of class. Like, for example, in ancient Egypt, the civilians, so to speak, would use the products like red ochre to red in their lips. And Cleopatra would use a product that's still used today called cochinel, which is made of crushed beets. And it's truly in like quite a lot of lipsticks that you could buy in a department store today. And that red is much more crimson. But to fast forward to the word lipstick, there wasn't really lipstick in a modern way until the late 1800s. Guerlain in 1884 created a lipstick, really the first modern lipstick, called Nubliet Mepa, Do Not Forget Me. And it was in a little tin tube. But it wasn't until the early 1900s that the quote unquote bullet that we are so used to today was invented. And that was designed to resemble World War I bullets, actually. And then in 1924, the push up tube was invented. And that was sort of when lipstick became a thing, as opposed to a pot of a reddened product that you could dabble on in the privacy of your own home.

[Rachel Felder]

It's amazing when you look back at the history, how it comes to mean different things for different eras. So we know that Queen Elizabeth I, full face of makeup, like full glam, she was white ash and white lead with kohl eyelids and she had red lipstick on. And then you kind of move forward, you got the 18th century, those sky high wigs and loads of makeup again. And then the Victorians come in and they're very like, no, I think only whores wear makeup. Actually, we will do no makeup makeup. Somewhere along the line it gets an association with sexiness, with promiscuity. I mean, it's got lots of meanings, multiple meanings, but somewhere along the line it picked that one up that it's naughty.

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, it's naughty, which is one of the most fabulous things about it. But the thing about a red mouth is scientists have found that people pay more attention to you if your mouth is red. And quite a few scientists believe that there's a correlation between a reddened mouth and a engorged labia. And, you know, that's in the book, too. So that connection isn't really a stretch. The beginning of this deep connection, this blaring connection between sexuality and the red lip, I would say, was in the Egyptian era, when prostitutes, both female and male, would wear red lipstick as almost like an on sign to say they were ready for business and also to kind of suggest that they were good at blowjobs.

[Rachel Felder]

Nice. Nice.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rachel Felder]

Well, I mean, it was a long time before the Internet. Right. They. And leaving little papyruses up in the Egyptian equivalent of phone boxes. It does pick up that it's slutty and naughty. And it's interesting to see people rebelling against that or embracing that at certain points out history. And when it becomes in a bullet in the 20th century, now, it's starting to take on political overtones as well. You wrote about the suffragettes and their use of red lipstick.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. So the thing about red lipstick that's unique is it's powerful, but it's feminine power. It's not just saying, don't mess with me, I'm in control here. It's saying, I'm a woman. Don't mess with me. I'm in control here. And it's really unique in that way. I mean, if you think about. I'm gonna. We're gonna go back to the suffragettes in a second. But if you think about what you might wear, if you were the chief executive of a company and you want today, and you want it to seem commanding, you might wear a blazer. Well, that's a men's item that just says power. That's not linked to sex. You might have a fancy fountain pen. You might have a briefcase. You might wear loafers or brogues. All these things are men's things that women can adopt. The red lip is a female thing. So for the suffragette movement in America, in the uk, in France, it was the ultimate symbol of female power to wear red lipstick. Because, as I say, it's not just strength, it's female strength and feminist strength. And I say in the book, which to me is so genius, that Elizabeth Arden, she had a store on Fifth Avenue, and Fifth Avenue in New York City was a place that during the suffragette movement, there were marches quite regularly. And she saw this as a marketing tool because the red lip was pretty much a uniform of the women arguing for the right to Vote here. And so she had her staff stand on Fifth Avenue with boxes full of red lipstick and handed them out to the marchers. Yeah. So she used it as for marketing. And it's the kind of thing people would do today. You know, it was really ahead of its time.

[Rachel Felder]

I wonder why the suffragettes honed in on red lipstick. Because they had a very complex reputation in the wider world. Some people were obviously right on. Sisters, you go for it. But it was very easy to characterize them as deranged, hysterical women who shouldn't be given the vote. And certainly in Britain, there was a sort of a more conservative suffragettes who were like, no, no, no, we're gonna do peaceful protest. And I'm wondering, like, why they would have chosen red lipstick. Because that, I suppose, it ran the risk of feeding into that narrative of their bad women.

[Unnamed Guest]

I agree completely with what you're saying, but as I'm thinking of the uniform of that woman, the white dress, it's easy to fade into the background and also to give off the semiotic message that you're a traditional woman. Like, for example, might have worn all white or a bride. So maybe someone just said, well, we need something to brighten this up and have people notice us. And that's one of the things I love so much about red lip, is that it's so ubiquitous and egalitarian. It doesn't have to be expensive. You and I are both wearing red lipstick. Now. If we were wearing a drugstore brand or the poshest brand there is, no one would really know the difference.

[Rachel Felder]

That's true.

[Unnamed Guest]

And you can find red lipstick everywhere, and that's a big deal. It's, like, universal in that way. And it's truly global, too.

[Rachel Felder]

What were they making it from when the suffragettes were donning their red lipstick? I'm thinking, like, what is the wear power of it? Because if there's one downside to red lipstick, it's the fact that it comes off, ends up on coffee cups and on your sandwiches and possibly on penises, whatever it is that you've had in your mouth. And so try to find one that actually stays in place. That's the Holy grail.

[Kate Lister]

But what was early red lipstick like?

[Unnamed Guest]

I'm gonna get to that in a second. But I'm happy to talk about how you keep your lipstick on during a blowjob, if you would like.

[Rachel Felder]

I think we would. Yes. Everybody settled in? Get ready to take some notes.

[Unnamed Guest]

Excellent. You know, I have many fields of expertise, and one of them is how to keep the Lipstick on during a blowjob. So we'll get to that momentarily. Listeners, stay tuned. But to answer your question about what it would have been made of and the fading off, the technology, so to speak, behind lipstick evolved a lot in the last hundred or so years. And actually red lipstick in that era probably would have stayed on really, really, really quite well. They would have used coconnel cochinel like they still use today, and they would have used a high concentration of that pigment and there would be wax to sort of lubricate it. So like a medium, so to speak. And that could quite plausibly stay on super duper well, I mean, I have a few lipsticks from the 1950s and they're completely indelible.

[Rachel Felder]

Really?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. And it's about the lubricants, so to speak. Perhaps that's a nice segue into blowjobs, but the lubricants were a bit denser and the amount of pigment they used was higher. I mean, if you buy, I often wear cheap red lipstick from the drugstore, there's actually a brand, I buy it Superdrug in the uk, that it's super duper cheap. I've been using it since I was a teenager. I happen to love it. So one doesn't need to go expensive for lipstick. And often the cheaper ones use less beautiful emollient ingredients and more pigment, and thus they stay on longer. So I think the issue for the women of the 20s, 30s and 40s might well have been getting it off, not having it stay on.

[Rachel Felder]

Didn't know that. I assumed it would have just been like a kind of like all over their face kind of an affair. Oh, I'm very pleased to hear that.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yes. Although there's a couple of things I want to add. One is they wouldn't have had lip liner then. And lip liner is a very good way to have it, not smear, so to speak. The other thing is, you know, in my book, one of the things I loved writing about was how the lipstick and cosmetic industry became a way for women to be successful executives in eras that that was unacceptable or unheard of. Like Coco Chanel, for example. And I mean, you know, Coco Chanel was this mega executive selling and selling red lip in two ways. One on lipstick specifically. But also she wore red lipstick and was kind of this influencer of her time. But she couldn't vote for decades after she founded her company. Women in France couldn't vote until after World War II. The reason I mention that is that there was a magnificent woman, Hazel Bishop, and she created in the 50s a super duper long last lipstick. And that was what she touted about that lipstick, that she had studied chemistry in university. She planned to be a doctor, and here in the States, that's a second degree. And her family couldn't afford to send her to medical school. And so she used her chemistry background to create a ultra long wear red lip.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Rachel after this short break.

[Rachel Felder]

All right. Blowjobs. You've got to tell us about the blowjobs.

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh, yeah, blowjobs. So when my book came out, I went on kind of the red lipstick world tour and did talks in quite a few countries and cities. And at the end of a book talk, typically, you know, you open up the talk for questions and then people can come by afterwards to get their book autographed. And the two questions I got asked all the time were, how do I choose a red lipstick? Everybody says I should be wearing red lipstick. I'm intimidated, or what shade should I wear? And the other question was about blow jobs and red lipstick. So people want to know.

[Rachel Felder]

I guess they want to know.

[Unnamed Guest]

Indeed. So if you really want the most ultra long wear lipstick, you want to powder down your lips and you want a very neutral powder so you don't mess with the texture or color of the lipstick too much. Let that set blot, then use a lip liner all over your lip, let it sit for a second to kind of settle, and then use a long wear red lipstick. Personally, I tend to use matte in a tube. I'm not the biggest fan of the liquid lip. I think it's super hard to control. For me, there's this emotional value of the stick that kind of harks back to ancestors and movie stars that you miss when you use a liquid lipstick. But put on the lipstick. If you're using a tube lipstick, I would blot and put on a second coat. You'll never get that off your lips. You could give two blow jobs with that.

[Rachel Felder]

I've never ever taken that much care with a lover. I don't care if it ends up looking like a candy cane. Quite frankly, you should just be quietly grateful that I'm there at all.

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, I mean, there's that school of.

[Rachel Felder]

Thought too, but people wanna know. People need to know this information, Rachel, and I'm glad you're here.

[Unnamed Guest]

It's important information. What can I say? You know, it's funny that we're talking about it because for me, removing my lipstick, nobody sees me without my red lipstick. So if ever anyone does it is true nudity to me. I feel much more naked without lipstick than being actually naked.

[Rachel Felder]

We should talk about the world wars because I hadn't realized the role that lipstick plays in like, galvanizing women going out to work and for the war effort.

[Unnamed Guest]

But it did, it really did. There's many layers to that, that as I was working on the book, I knew some of them, but as I started to roll up my sleeves and do the research, I just found it increasingly more fascinating. So basically, part one, women had to work jobs that they had never traditionally worked at during World War II because the men were all fighting. So women had to work in factories and that was of course, a very patriotic thing to do. But for women that were accustomed to being home and wearing red lipstick and, you know, preparing a nice dinner for their man, to not wear the red lipstick was to not be themselves, to not look like themselves in the mirror. So again, red lipstick became an image of power, but female power. You know, in America we had on posters, Rosie the Riveter, but the women in the UK and America and elsewhere that went to go work in factories wearing the red lipstick was a sort of empowered defiance of, you're taking our men. Well, that doesn't matter. We're gonna work towards the war effort. We're gonna work, we're gonna keep busy. And then there's the element of without the red lipstick, they didn't look like themselves. So Winston Churchill for really understood that and didn't ration red lipstick when many other things were rationed because he knew how important it was for the morale of women.

[Rachel Felder]

Wow.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, it was big. Now part three is that Adolf Hitler famously hated red lipstick. So if your mouth was red, you were making a statement against Hitler in a unspoken but unavoidable way by reddening your mouth.

[Rachel Felder]

Is that because the Nazis and the Third Reich were all about domesticity and pushing women away from the workplace, basically, and that they should stay at home and raise beautiful blond haired babies.

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, my fields of expertise are red lipstick and blowjobs, not Nazism.

[Rachel Felder]

Well, yeah, don't add that into theirs either. You can do this without Nazis.

[Unnamed Guest]

I think, I think I'm gonna leave that off my cv, but I'm just connecting dots that there was an Aryan ideal that red lipstick just wasn't part of.

[Rachel Felder]

Yeah, that sounds about right to me. But we should talk about classic Hollywood and we've definitely got to talk about Marilyn, because if anyone is super associated with the red lip, it's got to be Marilyn Monroe.

[Unnamed Guest]

That's it. I mean, there's no easier way to say I'm sexy than to wear a glossy red lip. And Marilyn Monroe understood that better than anybody. And actually, I'm glad you mentioned her specifically, because a matte red lip often sends out a different signal than a glossy red lip. And, you know, there's something about the glossy finish that's moist, that kind of is one step closer to the bedroom. And I think a matte red lip, as actually you and I are both wearing this morning, says more about power than literal sexuality necessarily. That's why someone like a Alexandria or Ocasio Cortez wears a matte red lip so often. So Marilyn, it just became an inherent part of her look and her communication of sexuality. That kind of fluid looking, moist red lip.

[Rachel Felder]

She wears a really dark red when you actually look at it. Like, I like a really vibrant orangey red. But she's wearing. Actually, I read that she's not just wearing one color. She's wearing several colors altogether to get that effect.

[Unnamed Guest]

This is exactly right. She has a darker color in a part of her lips that accentuates them more. And you can do that with lipstick and lip liner, too. I mean, I know many people. I rock my wide lips. I'm proud of them now. But, you know, I know many people with wide lips that put the lip liner inside to minimize the look of the width of the lips. And I know many people with thinner lips that put the lip liner on the outside to make them seem bigger.

[Rachel Felder]

Marilyn was in full Technicolor by that point. But before then, in the era of black and white film, you couldn't have seen the red lipstick on the film. Were they still wearing red lips then? Was it still important to that glamour?

[Unnamed Guest]

So it was important because it was a symbol in that era of being a woman that was dressed basically. I mean, remember, the silent film era is the flapper era.

[Rachel Felder]

Yes.

[Unnamed Guest]

Is the era that literal lipstick in sticks is something that was out there and available. But because of the black and white technology at the time, the lip had to appear red, but they didn't actually use red. They used darker colors because it needed to really pop on the screen.

[Rachel Felder]

Yeah, I didn't know that. And the flappers were the ones who. They kind of had that little bud lip, didn't they?

[Kate Lister]

That kind of like.

[Rachel Felder]

It was thin at the sides and then this little, like, kiss. I didn't know what you'd call that. This little pout thing.

[Unnamed Guest]

Cupid's bow.

[Rachel Felder]

Thank you. Cupid's bow.

[Unnamed Guest]

You're welcome. That's what. Or rather, they accentuated the cupid's bow. So that's what it was. Yeah. I mean, look, there was something about the flapper's look that was extreme and accentuated and marginally cartoony, you know, dramatic. And by accentuating the shape of the mouth, that was something that was a part of that look.

[Rachel Felder]

Where did red lipstick go in the 60s? I'm just jumping forward. Cause I'm trying to think, what were we doing in the 60s? There was a real clean hippie aesthetic where it was like, no, man, I don't need any makeup. I'm just gonna run through the wheat fields. And then there was Twiggy and heavy eyes and very nude.

[Kate Lister]

Where was red lips in the 60s?

[Unnamed Guest]

Very early 60s, like 61, 62 were still on matte red lips. And then as the miniskirt came about and Twiggy and the big pronounced eyelashes and all that, the eyes became so prominent that the lips started to get very pale pink. And I should say that early 60s moment of red lip, the pale pink started to phase in at the very beginning of the 60s, too. Okay, so then we get to the hippies, which were the very late 60s, and their look was so natural that the red lip didn't really play into that. And the only real pronounced lips until the mid-70s were, if you think about, like, Biba girls.

[Rachel Felder]

Yes.

[Unnamed Guest]

And brilliant. Barbara Hulenike. They had a pronounced lip, but it wasn't so red. It was usually more like what we would call Chanel vamp color today. Like a sort of brownish. And that was a black lipstick, too, was part of that look. They had Biba, had a cosmetics line. But, yeah, it wasn't until the punks used red lipstick.

[Rachel Felder]

And that's why Vivien Westwood.

[Unnamed Guest]

Vivienne Westwood, exactly. And it became kind of a statement of rebellion. And then the next big lip moment, red lip moment that is, was mid-80s. Sort of think of Robert Palmer, Addicted to Love. Sade, Madonna in the very early days.

[Rachel Felder]

Power suits and red lip.

[Unnamed Guest]

Exactly. Right. That's when red lips became, again, a big thing.

[Rachel Felder]

Where do you think we are with red lips today? Because, like, you are speaking to us from glorious New York City. American politics has been rather divisive of late, I have noticed, even from this side of the pond. And women's rights is sort of at the center of that. And I've noticed this conversation spilling out onto social media and to in discussion forums. And there is emerging this very trad wife clean aesthetic that's being held up by some groups as being, this is the ideal woman. And I've seen makeup being spoken about as if, again, it's being associated with whores and sluts and falseness. And what's your take on where makeup is today for women and where we're gonna take it?

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, the great thing about today's world is that it's an inclusive world. And what you're talking about is one type of person in the States or anywhere. We live in a world of diverse voices that don't always click and have their own perspective. So I would argue that juxtaposed with the type of people you're mentioning, there are the people that say, it's a time for boldness and statement and freedom. And, you know, I love seeing men in red lipstick.

[Rachel Felder]

I like seeing men in red lipstick.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. And I love seeing Taylor Swift in red lipstick. And I love seeing a younger generation of women feeling like red lipstick is a expression of power and style and savvy and success and wanting to wear it. So I would say we live in a world that embraces all sorts of different perspectives, and red lipstick is a expression of one of those perspectives.

[Rachel Felder]

It's good that it's still a bit edgy, though, is it's still got that slight you about it.

[Unnamed Guest]

It's never going to be quiet. So it's something that's quiet. Is going to be, to many people, edgy. I mean, to me, the red lipstick, if it's beautifully applied and a classic shade, for me, it doesn't really feel so edgy anymore. For me, it feels more confident and polished and elegant. I would never not wear red lipstick to the opera, for example. It makes me feel dressed.

[Rachel Felder]

You know, I get a lot of emails about my lipstick from people that watch me doing various things. And a lot of them say, I really love your lipstick. What is it? And then it's always followed up with, I'm not confident enough to wear it. Which I always want to, like, just give them a big hug and be.

[Kate Lister]

Like, oh, what do you say to.

[Rachel Felder]

Somebody who they like red lipstick, they want to wear it, but they just don't. How do you, like, even start on your red lipstick journey? What would be your advice?

[Unnamed Guest]

I get asked this question all the time. This is like my number one question from people. And I would say there are many entry gateway drugs into red lipstick obsession. So you could get a red tinted lip balm, for example.

[Rachel Felder]

Ah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Or lip stains or lip stain or a gloss that has some red tint to it. And that would be much easier to wear. And also, you don't necessarily have to do an intense shade of red. You could do something that's a little more orangey with many complexions, that's really, really beautiful. Or you could do something that was just a little less pronounced, a little less pigmented. You know, the suggestion I give to people always is to go to a drugstore and put aside little money, doesn't cost a lot, and buy a few and just try them at home and try them walking around. Lipstick is really hard to buy in a store instantly, just like perfume. In the perfume world, there's a phrase, dry down, which is about how a perfume smells on you after it's been on your skin for a while, because it's different with everybody. And I would say lipstick is quite similar. You kind of need to wear it and see, and that doesn't take a lot of investment. Buy some cheapy ones and play and figure out the shade and the format and the texture that suits you the best.

[Rachel Felder]

Is there a shade that you think is a universally good shade of red? Because there are many shades of red. You've got dark red, deep red, light.

[Unnamed Guest]

Red, orangey red, yellow, red, blue, red, all sorts of red, brownish red, blue. Red tends to suit just about everybody. I always say that I have a wardrobe of red lipsticks, and to me, there are also these elements like mood and weather and cloudiness and humidity and context of where I'm wearing it. There's so many different elements, but if someone wanted to buy one red lipstick, I would suggest a blue red. But I'm not going to suggest a specific brand or texture because the ideal brand and texture to you might be different than the ideal one to me.

[Rachel Felder]

Rachel, you have been marvelous to talk to today. Thank you so much. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, you can go to Instagram. Rachelfelder. You can buy the red lipstick book Red An Ode to a Beauty icon, published by HarperCollins. You can Google me, and I write about this sort of subject a lot and find my articles if you Google me. Thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure.

[Rachel Felder]

It's been loads of fun. Thank you for coming on.

[Unnamed Guest]

Pleasure. Thank you so much.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to Rachel for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to, like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you want us to explore a subject or perhaps you wanted to send me samples, pools of red lipstick. Then you can email [e-mail] We've got episodes on everything from medieval lesbians and the origins of sexting, all coming your way. This podcast was edited by Tom Delaghi and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society. A podcast by History hit. This podcast contains music by Epidemic Sound.

[Unnamed Guest]

On.

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