History's Worst F*ckboys: Emperor Caligula

Summary

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Episode Summary: "History's Worst F*ckboys: Emperor Caligula"
Release Date: April 10, 2025
Host: Kate Lister
Guest: Alexander Meddings as Emperor Caligula

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Introduction

In this episode of Betwixt The Sheets, host Kate Lister delves into the infamous reign of Emperor Caligula, exploring whether his notorious reputation as a "fuckboy" is historically justified or a product of biased sources. Joined by Roman historian Alexander Meddings, Kate navigates through Caligula's ascent to power, his personal life, and the scandalous actions that have cemented his legacy in history.

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Caligula's Origin and Rise to Power

Caligula, originally named Gaius Julius Caesar, was Rome’s third emperor, reigning from 37 to 41 AD. He hailed from the Julio-Claudian dynasty, the same lineage as Augustus and Nero. His upbringing was tumultuous; as the third son of Germanicus and Agrippina the Elder, he was often mocked with the nickname "Caligula," meaning "little boots," given by the legions during his father's campaigns in Germany ([08:07] Caligula: “...that's how he gets his nickname, Caligula.”).

After the untimely death of his father Germanicus in 19 AD, likely orchestrated by Emperor Tiberius, Rome plunged into public mourning. This period saw extreme reactions, including "abandoning babies to die" and temporary truces with enemies out of sheer grief ([09:28] Kate Lister: “...abandoning babies to die and enemies going, look, all right, we feel quite sad about this too. That seems extreme.”).

Caligula was later adopted and raised by Tiberius on Capri, where he witnessed the ruthless nature of imperial politics. This environment forced him to suppress his true feelings and adapt to survive, fostering a hardened personality ([13:19] Caligula: “...when he has no family left apart from his grandmother, Caligula is summoned to Capri...”).

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Early Reign: Popularity and Initial Reforms

Upon Tiberius' death in 37 AD, Caligula was swiftly proclaimed emperor at the age of 25 and received a hero's welcome in Rome. His early reign was marked by popular reforms:

• Lowering Taxes: Caligula eased the financial burdens on citizens, gaining their favor.
• Public Accounts: He made government spending transparent to the populace.
• Revival of Arts: Reintroducing literature and hosting lavish games and spectacles ([17:19] Caligula: “...his reign starts really well... he rides through the streets of Rome in a chariot...”).

These actions initially painted him as a benevolent and charismatic leader, beloved by the masses.

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Caligula's Personal Life and Scandals

Despite his early successes, Caligula's personal life quickly overshadowed his political achievements. His relationships and sexual exploits became the focal point of historical accounts:

• Marriages: Caligula had four wives, often marrying and divorcing swiftly. His second wife, Livia Orestilla, was abducted from her wedding and divorced the next day when she refused to love him. Similarly, his subsequent marriages were marked by superficiality and manipulation ([35:37] Kate Lister: "Wow. So two for two, two for two.").

• Incestuous Relationships: While historical evidence suggests Caligula had a close bond with his sister Drusilla, accusations of incest with all his sisters are likely fabrications by later historians like Suetonius, aiming to tarnish his legacy ([24:24] Caligula: “...the incest accusation... I think we can be very confident of that.”).

• Sexual Exploits: Caligula was known for his uninhibited sexual behavior, engaging with both men and women. Notable incidents include publicly kissing actors and engaging in acts that defied Roman social norms ([49:36] Kate Lister: “What a lust shit.”).

• Public Humiliations: Caligula often used sexual humiliation as a tool against the Senate, such as forcing senators’ wives to sleep with him, thereby asserting his dominance and mocking their status ([29:09] Caligula: “...shag their wives in front of them.”).

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Conflict with the Senate and Assertion of Power

Caligula's relationship with the Senate was tumultuous and marked by contempt. He frequently mocked the Senate, including the infamous episode where he made his horse a senator, symbolizing his disdain for their competence ([28:27] Caligula: “...giving his horse the trappings of a consul...”).

His authoritarian rule extended beyond ridicule:

• Arbitrary Decisions: Caligula would make arbitrary decisions, such as closing the granaries, causing famine ([27:48] Caligula: “...arbitrarily closing the granaries.”).

• Public Executions: He ordered the execution of individuals who dared to criticize him, including punishing a drama composer over a minor joke ([27:48] Kate Lister: “That's petty to an extreme degree.”).

• Divine Status: Caligula demanded to be worshipped as a living god, further blurring the lines between imperial authority and divine right ([32:35] Caligula: “...the emperor especially because the emperor's a God.”).

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Downfall and Assassination

Caligula's reign, though initially promising, became increasingly despotic and erratic. His oppressive actions and blatant abuse of power led to widespread discontent among the elite and the Praetorian Guard.

• Conspiracies: Multiple assassination attempts were made against him, often led by disgruntled members of his own guard. His constant mockery and humiliation of the Praetorian Guard, especially Cassius Caerrea, fueled resentment ([43:25] Caligula: “That's the story we've got.”).

• Assassination: In January 41 AD, during a performance at a temporary theater near the Palatine Hill, Caligula was assassinated by Cassius Caerrea and fellow guardsmen. The gruesome details of his death—ranging from jaw mutilation to genital mutilation and even cannibalism, as recounted by sources like Suetonius—underscore the intense loathing he inspired ([45:55] Caligula: “It's massive overkill.”).

• Aftermath: Following his assassination, Caligula's wife was killed, and his young daughter was brutally murdered to eliminate any chance of succession. The Senate briefly considered restoring the Republic but ultimately endorsed Claudius, Caligula's uncle, as the next emperor ([47:36] Kate Lister: “...you can see how that is...”).

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Historical Interpretation and Legacy

Kate Lister and Alexander Meddings discuss the reliability of historical sources, particularly Suetonius, who wrote under Emperor Hadrian and had personal vendettas. They argue that many of the scandalous stories about Caligula may be exaggerated or fabricated to delegitimize his reign and the Julio-Claudian line.

• Suetonius' Bias: As a contemporary of earlier emperors, Suetonius may have had motivations to portray Caligula negatively to align with later imperial narratives ([25:04] Caligula: “...they would be the ones writing the history.”).

• Caligula's Reputation: While sexual excess undoubtedly played a significant role in shaping his legacy, the extent of his alleged atrocities remains debated among historians. It's posited that even without his scandalous personal life, his authoritarian and erratic rule might have led to his downfall ([48:42] Caligula: “...shagging anybody with a pulse...”).

• Comparison with Other Emperors: Interestingly, some of Caligula's actions are mirrored in other emperors like Augustus, suggesting that extreme behaviors were not uncommon as tools of political maneuvering ([50:40] Caligula: “...talking about trade deals.”).

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Conclusion

Emperor Caligula remains one of history's most notorious figures, often depicted as the epitome of lustful and despotic leadership. This episode of Betwixt The Sheets challenges listeners to scrutinize the sources of his infamy, emphasizing the blend of political necessity and personal excess that defined his short-lived but impactful reign. While his "fuckboy" persona is undoubtedly a significant aspect of his legacy, the complexities of his rule suggest a figure shaped as much by the political intrigues of Rome as by his personal desires.

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Notable Quotes:

• Caligula on His Nickname: “[...] that's how he gets his nickname, Caligula.” ([08:07])

• Kate on Public Mourning: “[...] abandoning babies to die and enemies going, look, all right, we feel quite sad about this too. That seems extreme.” ([09:28])

• Caligula on Senate: “...shag their wives in front of them.” ([29:09])

• Caligula on Horse as Senator: “...giving his horse the trappings of a consul...” ([28:27])

• Caligula on Assassination: “It's massive overkill.” ([46:17])

• Kate on Suetonius' Account: “Calm down, Suetonius.” ([47:27])

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Further Episodes Teased:

• My Most Favorite Royal Mistress, Nell Gwyn
• An Examination of What It Meant to Be Ugly Throughout History

For more information or to share your thoughts, email [e-mail].

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This episode was edited by Tom Delaghi, produced by Sophie G., and the senior producer was Charlotte Long. Music courtesy of Epidemic Sound.

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

Hi, I'm your host Kate Lister. If you would like betwixt the sheets ad free and get early access, sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every single week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.

[Alexander Meddings]

I don't know about you, but the number one thing I look forward to when I return from traveling is a good night's sleep in my own bed. That has never been more true than it is now that I have a Sleep Number Smart bed. I get so sore after traveling on planes, but after literally one night in my Sleep Number Smart bed, my body feels restored, rested and relaxed. The fact that my bed actually listens to my body and adjusts to my needs to keep me sleeping soundly all the way through the night is worth it alone. Not to mention, my husband and I never need to argue over firm because we can each dial in our own Sleep Number setting. Why choose a Sleep Number Smart bed? So you can choose your ideal comfort on either side. And now for a limited time, Sleep Number Smart beds start at $849. Price is higher in Alaska and Hawaii. Exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details.

[Thrive Market]

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[Holly Fry]

Our Skin Tells a Story. Join me, Holly Fry, and a slate of incredible guests as we are all inspired by their journeys with psoriasis. Along with these uplifting and candid personal histories, we take a step back into the bizarre and occasionally poisonous history of our skin and how we take care of it. Whether you're looking for inspiration on your own skincare journey or are curious about the sometimes strange history of how we treat our skin, you'll find genuine, empathetic, transformative conversations here on our skin. Listen to our skin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kate Lister]

Hello my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister and you are listening to Betwixt the sheets where we rip the knickers off history. But before we can listen any further, I do have to tell you this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things and an adultery way covering a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. I don't know why I have to keep telling you that. But isn't that what we're all here for in the first place? Right, on with the show.

[Alexander Meddings]

Foreign.

[Kate Lister]

Hello betwixters and welcome to Casa Caligula. It is 39 AD and the year is already hotting up. The imperial gardens up here on the Esquiline Hill offer a welcome break from the intense sun as well as the crowds and the smells of the city. Here there are fountains of clear cool water, hand painted birds and floral designs on marble. Thermal baths decorated with precious coloured stones. And sculptures. So many sculptures. There are certainly slaves here, but you won't hear them, those voices. They are the guests of the Emperor. I wonder who he has over today. There are stories, of course. Maybe you've heard the tales of debauchery going on within these tranquil walls. You wouldn't know it being here today, but with such lavish tastes, it isn't hard to believe that the Emperor Caligula is a bit, shall we say, gluttonous with his desires. I wonder if that spreads to his sex life. What do you look for? A man?

[Caligula]

Oh, money, of course.

[Kate Lister]

You're supposed to rise when an adult's speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing a button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, what a beautiful dime. Goodness has nothing to do with it, dearie. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. Last week we rifled through the little black book of Lord Byron to find out if he really was a historical fuckboy. This week we're entering the halls of real power. We're heading back a few millennia and we're gonna meet one of Rome's most debauched emperors, allegedly Caligula. Ruling the empire from 37 to 41 AD. Caligula is often mentioned as the emperor who made his horse a senator. His rule ended only when he was assassinated. But why was he so hated? Did he really get divorced after just one day of marriage? And did he really sleep with his sisters? Well, I am joined from Rome, no less, by Alexander Meddings. And he is going to help us find out. Sandals on. Let's do it. Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Alexander Meddings. How are you doing?

[Caligula]

I am great, thank you. Thanks for having me on.

[Kate Lister]

Well, thank you for coming on because this is part of our new miniseries on historical. To use the term, the kids use fuckboys. And as a specialist in Roman history, you must have come across a fair few of them.

[Caligula]

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's about finding out which of the Caesars weren't fuckboys. That's kind of the trick.

[Kate Lister]

I mean, have you been able to find that out? Have you got one that was just really well behaved, that was just looking around going, I don't know what's going on here?

[Caligula]

No, I mean, even the one ones that die within a few months still manage to fit a fair amount in. So.

[Kate Lister]

No, we are here to talk about one of the most notorious, I think Caligula. What a strange reputation he's got. Not a good one. And I'm really interested in the question. And we'll tease this one out. Was he what we could call a fuckboy? We have to define terms here, I suppose. Or was he just weird with what he liked to do and what's the difference between the two? But before we even get to that, I suppose we have to cover who was Caligula? Can you give us his origin story?

[Caligula]

Right, so Caligula was Rome's third emperor and he was part of a dynasty known as the Julio Claudians, which starts with Augustus in the last few decades of the first century bc and it ends with the all singing, all dancing Emperor nero in the 60s A.D. caligula's real name was actually Gaius Julius Caesar. He's the third son of Germanicus and Agrippina the Elder, who are Rome's celebrity couple. They're like the Brad and Angelina.

[Kate Lister]

They were really popular, weren't they?

[Caligula]

Yeah. I mean, think kind of Will and Kate, but with the persecution narrative and public sympathy of Harry and Meghan.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, framed very well. Okay. Yeah. Like it.

[Caligula]

So the first few years of his life are spent away on campaign with his father Germanicus, who, as his name suggests, is basically beating up the Germans with a dirty great Roman sword. While away in Germany, Caligula is adopted as a mascot by the legions. And the legions dress him up in a little kind of legionary outfit, complete with little boots, called Caligas, or Caligulas as the diminutive is. And that's how he gets his nickname, Caligula. That's it. Throughout his entire life, he's basically Called Bootykins or little cadet kid or something like that. That's got to really stick in the crawl.

[Kate Lister]

Did he like that?

[Caligula]

No, he hated it. No, no, no. Any contemporary accounts we have of him refer to him as Gaius. He wanted to be Gaius. But he's called Bootykins.

[Kate Lister]

You wouldn't like that. Would like a little nickname from when you were a tiny kid given to you. Oh, all right. He's starting to fall into focus now. Yeah, I'm starting to get a. Yeah, all right. So he would hate that. But he's an army brat, basically. He's growing up.

[Caligula]

He's an army brat. He's a cadet kid on the front lines. But that one anecdote we have is that's it as far as any happy childhood memories are concerned, because Germanicus goes and dies in 19 AD, he's poisoned by his enemies. Many say Tiberius, the emperor at the time, had a hand in things. And when Germanicus dies, Rome breaks out in the most extreme form of public mourning. Really, if we believe any of the sources, it's just completely insane. So people start ransacking temples in their grief, they throw out the household gods. We're told that many of Rome's enemies agree truces temporarily because they feel they've suffered a loss as well, which, again, is just completely insane.

[Kate Lister]

Wow, that is very extreme.

[Caligula]

And new fathers, fathers of newborn kids leave their babies exposed outside because they can't deal with the grief of raising them in a world without Germanicus.

[Kate Lister]

So, yeah, I'm getting a sense here of that. There's some issues with the sources. As a historian, when you're reading this, is there, like, a line in the sand, like, well, I'm prepared to believe that people were very sad, but, like, abandoning babies to die and enemies going, look, all right, we feel quite sad about this too. That seems extreme.

[Caligula]

It's so extreme. Yeah. It always gives me a giggle, though. I mean, you also have, like, Parthian kings who say, we will abstain from banqueting out of respect for him. Because that's, like, the best thing a Parthian king could do to show respect. Right.

[Kate Lister]

I suppose what we could perhaps take away from that is, even if those stories are not true, and they sound a little bit suspect to me, but they are testament to the esteem that this man was held in.

[Caligula]

Yeah. He was the prince that was promised. And his wife, Agrippina, uses his funeral to stir up the Romans against Tiberius, to accuse Tiberius of having had a hand in his assassination by poison.

[Kate Lister]

At the funeral.

[Caligula]

At the funeral.

[Kate Lister]

That is Some high level scheming on the part of Agrippina.

[Caligula]

It is. And it's also just really not a good idea against an emperor like Tiberius. And so what happens next is that all of Caligula's family, so his mother and his two elder brothers are arrested, exiled, sent away to faraway islands and starved to death.

[Kate Lister]

What is it with the islands in ancient Rome of people being constantly sent to these islands where they starve to death?

[Caligula]

I know. And these are really popular tourist islands now, like Ponza, Banditeri.

[Kate Lister]

That's awful.

[Caligula]

But you go there with this knowledge. You're like, you really didn't want to go to Ponza 2,000 years ago.

[Kate Lister]

No. All right, so Tiberius is. I've not heard good things about him. I've heard many, many bad things, including that he was a pederast, basically. I've heard the. The stories about his little fishes that he used to call the children.

[Caligula]

Indeed. Who are trained to swim between him while he's in bath on Capri and nibble at his genitalia. Yes. Yeah. It depends which sources you want to believe. And it depends how far you want to believe them. So there is this really thick invective tradition against Tiberius which has him as a sadomasochist, as a pervert. It says that the walls of his palace on Capri were adorned with the kind of pornography you see in Pompeii in the brothel, for example. It also says that he had a group called his tight bums. He had a group of boys he liked to call his tight bums for reasons that we probably don't need to go into. And he would get them to perform threesomes in front of him to stimulate his flagging libido in old age.

[Kate Lister]

I hadn't heard that one. Wow. Okay. It's like an evening round at Tiberius'that's. Not gonna be a good night for.

[Caligula]

Most people if you believe the traditions. But then there's another tradition that says that he's a bit of a kind of pub quizzer. He likes getting astrologers and scholars and having fierce intellectual debates. And he likes writing histories and books on grammar.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, as a historian, what do you think? I know that, like, we'll never ever know forever. But just what's your thoughts on it?

[Caligula]

I think like Freshers Week, you can do both. You can study by day and you can go wild at night.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, that is true, isn't it?

[Caligula]

Yes. I think most of the stories are probably ratcheted up to blacken his reputation because it was in the interest of his. Of his successors to do that, we will never really know unless we uncover some more sources.

[Kate Lister]

But this is Caligula's grandpa, is that right?

[Caligula]

It's his great uncle. And Caligula is. When he has no family left apart from his grandmother, Caligula is summoned to Capri and he's raised as an adolescent by Tiberius. So Caligula has to watch all of this stuff going on and he has to dissimulate, he has to pretend that he's totally cool with it all, because if he looks upset or angry or threatening, then he will be bumped off as well.

[Kate Lister]

That would mess you up, wouldn't it? Your whole family is being murdered around you and you have to go and live with the person who's probably doing it and pretend you're completely fine with all of this.

[Caligula]

Right. And this goes a long way, I think, to explaining why Caligula had issues, to put it mildly as an adult.

[Kate Lister]

To say that the least.

[Caligula]

He was also a bit of a fuckboy on Capri, though, Caligula.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, was he? Tell me, tell all.

[Caligula]

He does a bit of dissimulation, so he does a bit of pretending everything's fine and staying in line. But then we're also told by Suetonius that he loved going out late at night disguised in a wig and a long cloak, to engage in gluttony and adultery and to seek out dancing and singing performances. Ooh. And Tiberius lets him get away with this in the hope it might calm his vicious character. And I'm thinking if even 1% of the stories about Tiberius are true, then going out dancing and singing in a wig is kind of tame.

[Kate Lister]

That's very tame, isn't it? The idea that he's doing this to try and calm Caligula down, That's interesting as well, because it doesn't sound like, from the stories, that he would be somebody that would let anybody be uncom in their presence without sending them off to an island somewhere.

[Caligula]

Allegedly, he was told in a prophecy that he was rearing a viper who was going to be the viper for the Roman people. And so he's always a little bit wary about letting Caligula indulge too much in his vice.

[Kate Lister]

But broadly speaking, Tiberius. Boo Germanicus. Yay. How did people feel about the young Caligula, this alleged viper? Was he popular? I know he wasn't in power at this point. What was his PR team doing? Did he have good public relations?

[Caligula]

He did, and he comes to power quite quickly. So Tiberius dies on Capri Many say that Caligula had a hand in that. Not least because he managed to seduce the wife of the Praetorian Guard by promising her empire. Which is proper fuckboy behaviour.

[Kate Lister]

That is, isn't it? Oh, that is. I'll call you in the morning, I promise. Honestly, it'd be amazing. We'll work it all out. Lies, right?

[Caligula]

Nowadays it's like a dinner out and maybe a weekend break or something. Then it's, I give you the empire.

[Kate Lister]

I give you the. That would work. That's a line, isn't it, that. There's not many that wouldn't be seduced by that. All right, okay. So he's. That's interesting. He's already got that reputation. Possibly bumped him off. They all seem to meet pretty violent ends, all the emperors.

[Caligula]

They really do. They really do. Yeah. Very few of them die a natural death. Augustus died a natural death, but he's really the only one that comes to mind. Yeah, in ripe old age, too. In his 70s. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Right, so Tiberius and his little fishies, gone. Then what happens?

[Caligula]

So Caligula is proclaimed the emperor and the only other person potentially standing in his way is Tiberius. Grandson called Tiberius Gemellus. But Gemellus is a bit too young. Caligula returns to Rome and he is hailed as a hero. He's given a hero's welcome. He's very much seen at this point as the son of Germanicus. As Rome's golden boy. Suetonius tells us that 160,000 animals are slaughtered to celebrate his ascension to the throne.

[Kate Lister]

Odd choice there. Rome. That's.

[Caligula]

Terrible. Time to be an ox. Great time to be a Roman citizen.

[Kate Lister]

All the poor ox is going, yay. Looks like they want us to do what? What, What? What's happening? Oh, bless them. But they're not happy unless they're sacrificing something. I have learned that about the Romans.

[Caligula]

And it starts really well his reign. He lowers taxes, he publishes public accounts, he reintroduces literature that Tiberius had banned. He puts on lots of games and spectacles and he himself, as a populist, is a spectacle. So he rides through the streets of Rome in a chariot. He showers the people with gold, quite literally from the top of the Basilica Julia, in the Forum.

[Kate Lister]

That's clever, isn't it, that if you're going to win people over. How old was he when he was doing this?

[Caligula]

He is 25, I believe. When he comes to power, he's 25 and he's dead by 29. Spoiler alert.

[Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Caligula]

He doesn't last particularly long.

[Kate Lister]

What happened to the little, the little boy that could have been emperor? Dare I ask, was it an island?

[Caligula]

So it wasn't an island? Actually, no, it was quicker than an island. So Caligula falls sick late in the year 37, the same year he becomes emperor. And everybody thinks he's going to die. And so they start lining up a successor. And that successor is the little boy, Tiberius Gemellus. But Caligula recovers. And when he recovers, you could say that a monster emerges in place of a man. And so he has seen what people are willing to do. He has seen that the Senate have no loyalty to him and they were complicit in the murder of his family and his dynasty. And so he goes on a massive revenge spree. So Tiberius Gemellus is made to commit suicide.

[Kate Lister]

Oh no, he was only little, wasn't he?

[Caligula]

Don't think he was a teenager.

[Kate Lister]

I'm saying like oh. But honestly, as Caligula gets going, that, that really is the least of it, isn't it? I'll be back with Alexander and Caligula after this short break.

[Alexander Meddings]

I don't know about you, but the number one thing I look forward to when I return from traveling is a good night's sleep in my own bed. That has never been more true than it is now that I have a sleep number smart bed. I get so sore after traveling on planes. But after literally one night in my sleep number smart bed, my body feels restored, rested and relaxed. The fact that my bed actually listens to my body and adjusts to my needs to keep me sleeping soundly all the way through the night worth it alone. Not to mention, my husband and I never need to argue over firmness because we can each dial in our own sleep number setting. Why choose a sleep number smart bed? So you can choose your ideal comfort on either side. And now for a limited time, Sleep number smart beds start at $849. Price is higher in Alaska and Hawaii. Exclusively at a sleep number store near you. See store or asleepnumber.com for details.

[Thrive Market]

Worried about what ingredients are hiding in your groceries? Let us take the guesswork out. We're Thrive market the online grocery store with the highest quality standards. In industry we restrict 1000 plus ingredients so you can trust that you'll only find the best high quality organic and sustainable brands all free of the junk. With savings up to 30% off and fast carbon neutral shipping. You get top trusted groceries at your door and you can stop worrying about what your kids get their hands on. Start [e-mail] podcast for 30% off your first order and a free gift.

[Holly Fry]

Our Skin Tells a Story. Join me, Holly Fry, and a slate of incredible guests as we are all inspired by their journeys with psoriasis. Along with these uplifting and candid personal histories, we take a step back into the bizarre and occasionally poisonous history of our skin and how we take care of it. Whether you're looking for inspiration on your own skincare journey or are curious about the sometimes strange history of how we treat our skin, you'll find genuine, empathetic, transformative conversations here on our skin. Listen to our skin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kate Lister]

This illness that he had, there's been a lot of debate around that as to what happened, because as you were saying, he started really strong. Like, the people can't get enough of him. He's a rock star. He's doing everything right. And I suppose if Tiberius was away on Capri, having a young emperor back in Rome, being visible must have been a real big thing. But then this illness and he's out of action for a long time, isn't he?

[Caligula]

Yeah, it's a few months.

[Kate Lister]

What was it, do you think? I know we weren't there, but, like, what do you think?

[Caligula]

Do you recover from syphilis or do.

[Kate Lister]

You think it was syphilis? I have heard people say it might have been some kind of breakdown, because, as you were saying, a very different person emerges.

[Caligula]

He definitely suffers a breakdown upon the death of his favorite sister, Drusilla. And so even though earlier on I mentioned the fact that all of his family are dead, that's actually just the brothers, the male line, and his parents, he still has three surviving sisters. And the big thing about Caligula's debauch sex life is his incest with his sisters. Right? That's how writers get at him, because Caligula parades his sisters really quite publicly because they are the only legitimate succession if something happens to him. Coins are really interesting in this. I won't talk too much about coins because it can be a little dull, but the coins issued by Caligula contain our first ever portrait of a living female figure in the form of his mother.

[Kate Lister]

They do have this attitude of, like, men are amazing. Men Are there all women, too? Yeah, I guess there are, but men are amazing and they just. They can really easily just ignore women. It's a very odd attitude, even though they're all over the place. But Caligula's celebration of his sisters and him pushing them forward into. I'm not sure if he gave them titles, but it's quite a prominent public space that he's pushing them in. That must have rattled a few cages.

[Caligula]

Absolutely. And he does give them titles. He calls them Sorores Augustae. So the Sisters of Augustus. So that's a quasi religious title. He also gives his sisters and his grandmother the privileges of vestal virgins.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, hello.

[Caligula]

Which is no small feat.

[Kate Lister]

No. Are they virgins?

[Caligula]

No. I mean, Drusilla's married to a bloke who later on will launch a conspiracy against Caligula.

[Kate Lister]

Definitely not.

[Caligula]

Definitely not virgins. And if we believe the sources against Caligula, then he himself deflowered Drusilla when they were both kids.

[Kate Lister]

All right, so let's talk about this one, then. Is this another Roman historian giving it all, oh, they were so upset. All the babies died and Tiberius had a band of tight bums or whatever it was. Is this just more Roman and propaganda? What is our evidence that he did have an unusually close, suspiciously close relationship with his sisters.

[Caligula]

He clearly felt very attached to Drusilla. I think he was setting her up as empress, not to marry her, but she would have been the successor had something happened to him. And he clearly has a very close bond with her because when she dies, he does genuinely lose his mind. He forbids laughter in public. He forbids people with their family.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, we're going there. Wow. Okay.

[Caligula]

We're going there. Yeah. He goes completely batshit crazy for quite a long time and he never really recovers from that. But the incest accusation regarding his other sisters is, I think, entirely fabricated. I think we can be very confident of that.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, why'd you say that?

[Caligula]

If it were remotely true, one of his contemporary sources, of which a couple survive, would have mentioned it. I have no doubt. Seneca, for example, would have mentioned it.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. He didn't pull his punches, did he, Seneca? He would have mentioned that.

[Caligula]

I think so. Somebody would, but it only appears later.

[Kate Lister]

Okay. All right, so this is further down the line that people are writing this, but Drusilla, what is it? Is Drusilla younger, older?

[Caligula]

Like how so? She was younger by about four years.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, do we know why they were. Again, we don't have the sources, really, but why they would be so close? Were they on Capri together? Did they spend time together as children? We just don't know.

[Caligula]

They spent time together as children. They weren't on Capri together. It's really when Caligula gets back that he starts Elevating them to these positions of power. But the sources are just, like, outrageous. So the accusation is that Caligula habitually indulged in incest with all of his sisters and his wife at crowded banquets, and he made them take turns in lying beneath him while the wife lay above.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, okay, who's saying that? Who says that?

[Caligula]

Suetonius, our main source. He's a biographer from the first century A.D. more or less and second century. He's writing under the Emperor Hadrian. In fact, he's expelled from Hadrian's Court for possibly getting too close to Hadrian's wife. So he's also a bit of a shagger.

[Kate Lister]

Excellent.

[Caligula]

Yeah, I don't think there's any truth in that whatsoever. But the fivesome image at a crowded banquet really does stay with you.

[Kate Lister]

It really does, doesn't it? Imagine being, like, the butler or the person that has to clear up after that of just like. Oh, God. Other rumors I've heard about him, and they may have come from that film caligula from the 70s. Was it?

[Caligula]

Oh, the porno masquerading as a film.

[Kate Lister]

That's exactly that one. Was that Roddy McDowell? I can't remember.

[Caligula]

Malcolm McDowell. And Helen Mirren.

[Kate Lister]

And Helen Mirren, yes, she was in it. The story that he deflowered the virgin brides of his friends on the day of their wedding, is that recorded anywhere?

[Caligula]

He stole wives at weddings he wasn't so much into. Well, maybe they were also virgins at the time. I mean, that would have been the practice. So, yeah, we could go with that. But the focus is less on him deflowering them and more on him stealing the property of senators.

[Kate Lister]

Ah, there you go. There's that Roman logic again.

[Caligula]

There you go. Horrible. Romans being generally horrible.

[Kate Lister]

They really are quite brutal in the way they look at this. All right, so he's stealing property. And that's insulting, humiliating on purpose, right? Must be.

[Caligula]

Oh, he loves humiliating. The Senate and the people probably love him for that.

[Kate Lister]

Go on, give me some other. Caligula burns then when he's really on a roll here.

[Caligula]

So apparently he condemns the Roman people to hunger by arbitrarily closing the granaries. Again, that's in Sueton.

[Kate Lister]

Dumb. That's. Why would you do that?

[Caligula]

That's just what doesn't make much sense. He has a drama composer burnt to death in the middle of the arena because one of his lines contains a doubtful joke. And Caligula's kind of into literature.

[Kate Lister]

Right, okay. I mean, that's pedantic to an extreme degree.

[Caligula]

So pedantic. People would watch it, though.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, they would. They would. And I know academics as well who've spotted errors in works before and they would not be beyond doing something like that. The rage that it provokes. What about the story he made his horse a member of the Senate?

[Caligula]

Ah, okay, so that's for my money. That's an example of Caligula's quite wicked sense of humor. He's essentially saying to the Senate, you are all so useless, I might as well make my horse a senator or a consul.

[Kate Lister]

Or.

[Caligula]

He's basically just saying, I can do whatever I want, I actually have no need of you guys. And I'm going to give all my horse the trappings of a consul, including the stables, the purple blankets. So he gets purple blankets, which are the colour of royalty. He gets his own stables, gives him all of the trappings of a consulate, what one of the elite would expect. And I think this has just been misinterpreted as an example of Caligula's madness.

[Kate Lister]

I see. So it's not that he genuinely thought his horse could be a consul, this was him sticking two fingers up again at the Senate.

[Caligula]

Absolutely. I mean, it's an example of his madness. Right. But it's too easy to describe him as mad. It's far too easy. And I think a lot of what he does can be construed as basically him just holding a mirror up to the senators, showing them how servile and useless they are, and demonstrating that he has absolute power to do whatever he wants, whether it's make his horse a consul or shag their wives in front of them, which he also does.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, does he do that? Oh, dear. See, one of the other things I've learned about the Romans, though, is if they want to insult somebody or if they want to discredit them, their go to burn is that they are sexually debauched. You see that cropping up in the straight, like in political debates, there are people standing up and going, yeah, but you give head to slave girls when they're all their period, like in a political debate. You just going, what? Could this just be more of that? Of like, he's so wicked and evil that of course he was doing these things sexually that were horrendous?

[Caligula]

It's hard to know. I think there is enough weight of tradition there that it's entirely possible that the Senate suffered a lot of humiliation and sexual humiliation at his hands. I don't think it's just a case of just making up stuff out of nowhere. I don't think it would have washed.

[Kate Lister]

And you said that he has a vicious sense of humour. And we do have some evidence for that because we have the account of. Was it a group of Jewish people went to go and see him to try and book an appointment with him, Tell us that story.

[Caligula]

So this is the only source we have written by someone who met Caligula and it's by a Jew from Alexandria called Philo of Alexandria. Presumably he had another name, but we now know him as Philo of Alexandria. And essentially the Jews of the city are being persecuted. And so Philo and an embassy set out to go and meet Caligula and to go and petition him to protect their rights. And they're trying to tie him down when they arrive and he's busy just wandering around the imperial palace, kind of taking care of all matters interior decor and not actually receiving embassies like a good emperor should.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Caligula]

And then he essentially goes. He makes eye contact briefly with Philo and he goes, ah, your people are the ones who don't eat pork and who won't sacrifice to me, right? Huh? I'm a God. You should. And that's the meeting. Then he sends them away.

[Kate Lister]

I mean, it's funny now, you kind of look at it and you're like, that's so weird that he did that. But it does encapsulate something quite cruel and dismissive about him that these people have gone to see him to be like, please, please, could you stop us being murdered? And he's more interested in his interior design projects. And when he does see them, he just takes the piss out of their religion.

[Caligula]

I think he sees them as a threat. There's another story in which Caligula tried to install his statue of his godhead inside the temple of Jerusalem, but was just about talked down from doing it.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, okay.

[Caligula]

I think with the Jews in particular, he's trying to send a message because he sees him as a threat. He sees monotheism as a big threat to the Roman Empire, where you worship all gods and the emperor especially because the emperor's a God. Right.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Alexander and Caligula after this short break.

[Alexander Meddings]

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[Kate Lister]

We should talk about his wives because as well as allegedly seducing women left, right and centre members of the Senate and just generally humiliating people, he did get married.

[Caligula]

He did. He had four wives. The first is a woman called Junia Claudilla who dies on Capri in childbirth. We know nothing else about her.

[Kate Lister]

Was he sad about that? Did he lose his shit about that?

[Caligula]

We have no idea. Probably not, because that's roughly the same time as he's trying to hit on the wife of the Praetorian Prefect to get close to Tiberius and take it.

[Kate Lister]

So he's moved on.

[Caligula]

He moves on very quickly. Yeah, probably overnight.

[Kate Lister]

Fuck boy.

[Caligula]

I know the second Livia Orestilla is originally married to another guy, and Caligula is invited as a guest to their wedding. And at the wedding feast, he steals her away. He forces the guy, Calpurnius Pizo to divorce her and he steals her away. But then he realizes that she will never really come to love him because she loves Piso. And so he divorces her the next day. So that's a wild three days.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. So two for two, two for two.

[Caligula]

And then he goes through a period in which all of their names have to rhyme. So we have Lolina Paulina. Christ, same thing. He steals her from the wedding. They last about six months together. And then he divorces her because she is infertile, apparently. And his punishment for this is that she can never, ever associate with another man.

[Kate Lister]

Fuck. Boy behavior. Indeed. Right. I don't know why I was expecting decent husband behavior from this person. He was just. He just went home of an evening and they just cuddled up and watched the Roman equivalent of Netflix or like. I don't know why I presumed it wasn't going to be awful. Of course it's going to be awful. So who's the fourth, then? He's leaving this trail.

[Caligula]

The fourth is the one that sticks. So in a sense, he does kind of Netflix and chill a bit with the fourth one. Her name is Milonia. Kaizonia sounds a bit like Melania, not to invite comparisons, maybe more between him and. Anywho, they get married in about 39 to 40 AD. She's significantly older than him. She already has three children, which is strange and remarked upon.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Caligula]

And Juvenal, a satirist writing a few decades later, suggests that the reason Caligula was mad is because she was poisoning him. Nah. No, the dates don't fit.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Caligula]

But it's typical. Blame the woman. Right. It's typical of that whole stick.

[Kate Lister]

Is she the one that Helen Mirren played in the film Caligula? Yes. And she was. She was like a massive, massive goer. That was the story in the film. Is that any bearing in reality?

[Caligula]

Pretty much the one sentence we have on her from Suetonius says that she was devoted to luxury and sexual excess.

[Kate Lister]

There we go, then. Right, so maybe they're well matched.

[Caligula]

I think so.

[Kate Lister]

Maybe it was just a match made in. Well, hell, quite frankly. But they have a baby, don't they?

[Caligula]

They do. They have a young daughter. They have a young daughter together. And when she gives him a daughter, he views her as a goddess. He views this woman as the one he will stay with forever. I think he loves her. I think Caligula loves Kazonia, but he also does really weird stuff with her. Like he parades her in front of the soldiers dressed in a kind of military uniform. He parades her naked in front of his friends.

[Kate Lister]

It's given Kanye. Kanye with Bianca, parading her in front of people in a weird showy. I don't know why I've gone there. I shouldn't make that comparison. I don't know if you.

[Caligula]

No, no, no. It's a good one. I like that one.

[Kate Lister]

But he must be pretty into her and obsessed with her, like, to be doing that, like, showing her off, like that.

[Caligula]

He is. But he's got it wrong because he should really be parading her, especially naked in front of his friends if she a young and beautiful childbearing woman, but she's not. So again, this is an example of him just getting it wrong, of him not knowing what the socially acceptable norms are.

[Kate Lister]

It's just a really interesting example of what happens when you take somebody that already has a lot of issues and you just give them unfettered power and they're surrounded by people. He must have been surrounded by people that were just too terrified to say no to whatever hare brain scheme he'd come up with.

[Caligula]

Yeah, he definitely was. He had lots of. All the Senate are completely sycophantic. He manages to convince senators to run alongside his chariot for miles.

[Kate Lister]

Oh Jesus, that's so. It's so humiliated that like, come on guys.

[Caligula]

And they fight to become part of his priesthood. So they will, they will try and outbid each other and do whatever they can to become a priest to a living emperor who is celebrated as a God by this stage. So he has the sycophantic senators and then I think he probably kind of like the bully at school. I think he's got a group of mates around him who just laugh at all his jokes and they tell him that everything he touches turns to Gold Giving.

[Kate Lister]

J.D. vance. Yeah, yeah, I know that the other people he was surrounded by, it's just all sounding horribly familiar. Like when you're talking about this stuff of like people coming up with mad ideas in power and just being surrounded by people that go, yeah, that sounds great, let's definitely do that. That's just, wow.

[Caligula]

Nothing can go wrong.

[Kate Lister]

But I do know that the people you had to have surrounding you to retain any kind of power in Rome, if you were the emperor, was the Praetorian Guard. Because without that you're just one person shouting mad crap on your own, aren't you? Who were the Praetorian Guard and why did they stand by him for as long as they did?

[Caligula]

Because he's showering them with money.

[Kate Lister]

There you go.

[Caligula]

It's not in their interest to go and find somebody else. There isn't really anybody else. I mean, Caligula is descended by blood to Augustus, to the first emperor, to his mother through the matrilineal line. And so Caligula is the most legitimate emperor there is. This is also still the very, very early days of the imperial system of the principate, as it's called. And so it's not really clear how it's going to work, whether it's going to be a kind of blood succession or inherited from your father, but. But they're making it work at the moment by basically just getting into power and paying off the Praetorian Guard. And they're the only guard in Rome with swords. And so what they say, what you say with their protection goes.

[Kate Lister]

Are they like bodyguards? Is that who they are?

[Caligula]

Yeah, they are, they are. Caligula also has a separate guard called the German Guard, who are a bunch of really burly German blokes who, as we'll see later when Caligula is assassinated, end up fighting with the Praetorian Guard because it's the Praetorians who off him.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, oh, well, that didn't go as planned then, did it? The Praetorian Guards, they're the ones that would kind of be with him all the time, and if he said something like seize him, they would be the ones to like jump in. And they're basically the muscle, aren't they?

[Caligula]

They're the muscle. So when he's picking people up off the streets and having them executed, it's very unlikely he's doing any of that himself. He's just sitting there, cup of tea or the equivalent, some horrible garum fish sauce covered stuff, and he's just watching for his own entertainment.

[Kate Lister]

So how does that go wrong then? If he's paying him off, there must have been an attitude of like, look, we know he's not great, but he's the only one we've got, so we're going with him. Like, what went wrong and how did they bump him off?

[Caligula]

So it's not the first conspiracy against him. There is another one about a year or two earlier, led by Drusilla's ex husband. But Caligula puts it down really, really quickly and brutally. And he has his other two sisters exiled, where they will remain until Caligula's dead. So no one really dares rise up against him after that until the head of the Praetorian Guard, who is a guy called Cassius Caerrea, can't take it anymore. So Cassius is a big, muscular Jim bro, kind of, you know, big stocky build, praetorian, but he has a little bit of a high pitched voice that Caligula constantly takes the piss out of.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Caligula]

So Caligula's mocking him all the time for his effeminacy. And whenever Kaerea asks Caligula for the daily watchword, the secret code to give to all the other Praetorians Instead of saying something serious like Securitas or Jupiter, Caligula says things like Priapus, which is the God of fertility with a big raging hard on in all of his depictions. Or Venus, which is like. I don't know. The modern equivalent would be like cupcake or giggles.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, okay. So like military passwords that are just silly.

[Caligula]

Yeah. Which again, would probably be really funny if you're on his side. Today's password, sire. Giggles.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, God. Big buttons. Big willies. Oh, dear. Right, yeah. I can see how that would grate on you if you were a very serious Praetorian Guardsmen. Is that why they did it, then? Just because they couldn't stand the nicknames anymore?

[Caligula]

That's the story we've got. I mean, he had his supporters. People were like, oh, that'd be fantastic if you could actually take him out. That'd be great. Also do his family in the meantime. That'd be wonderful. And then we can restore the Republic. So the senators are very much on board, but they're also cowards and they don't want to get involved themselves. So what happens is we're in the year 41, in January, I believe, so a nice, cold January day in 41 A.D. caligula is just coming back from the Theat, which is a temporary theatre he's erected near the Palatine Hill, and he's had a great day at the theatre. He's been watching all of the senators scramble for seats at the beginning because he's removed their privileges. So they're just like fighting commoners, trying to get the best seats, and the commoners are fighting back. Just chaos.

[Kate Lister]

He really is a shit.

[Caligula]

He's such an asshole. He really is. But it's quite funny. I mean, it's like watching the House of Lords kind of like scramble around, you know what I mean?

[Kate Lister]

It really depends what viewpoint you've got here, doesn't it? Because I can see how that is. Yeah, that's a really vicious sense of humor. But that is quite funny.

[Caligula]

It's really grim.

[Kate Lister]

Unless it was happening to you, in which case.

[Caligula]

Unless it's happening to you. But it's a spectacle, and it's the senators who write the history. So the ones who are fighting for seats and are having to, like, you know, watch a performance with some guy's massive head in front of them, they can't see anything. They're the ones writing the history. The ones who found it really funny were illiterate for the most part. So Caligula's heading back to indulge in a massive lunch. And he's briefly pulled away while he's going down this corridor and he's told to go and watch a performance that some young aristocrats from Asia Minor are putting on, and if he could just go by and encourage them. And he says yes, which is really good of him because it's presumably some terrible amateur dramatics by a bunch of Greek Trustafarian kids. It's going to be terrible.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. Okay, that's odd that he would say yes to that, but.

[Caligula]

But he agrees to go and watch. And as he's making his way there, he bumps into Kaerea and Kaerea asks him for the day's password. Caligula probably just says something like dickhead or something else. And Kyrea just pulls his sword out and he slashes Caligula. He cuts his jaw off, or cuts his jaw almost in two and throws him to the ground. It's kind of weirdly comical, even at the end. So Caligula's there writhing around, going, I'm not dead, like Monty Python and the Holy Grail. And then Kyria's kind of stabbing him, and then the others join in and some other guards are stabbing him and senators are stabbing him. Then they cut his genitals off.

[Kate Lister]

That's overkill, isn't it? You didn't need to do that.

[Caligula]

It's massive overkill. And then they eat his flesh, apparently, according to one account.

[Kate Lister]

Too far, too far, too far. You could wound that back in a few notches and everything would have been a lot better. That, to me, sounds like another Roman, like, are you exaggerating that story? That sounds a bit like that. What's the point of that story? Why cut his genitals off? Why eat his flesh?

[Caligula]

Yeah, the flesh eating's wild, isn't it?

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. I mean, is that just like. He's definitely dead. We ate him.

[Caligula]

Yeah. The genitals bit. The flesh eating. I really don't know. I'm not sure I want to know. But, I mean, it shows the strength of ill will towards him, I suppose. The genital mutilation, I think, is partly about how he sexually humiliated a lot of people, a lot of senators, senators, wives. And so they're going to do it back to him. And it's also partly about ending the bloodline once and for all, so people can hold his cock and balls up and be like, that's it for the Julians. That's it, they're gone.

[Kate Lister]

It's a hell of an end for a fuckboy as well, isn't it, is to have your willy cut off and paraded around. What happened to his wife and his baby?

[Caligula]

Even worse. So his wife is hunted down in the palace and stabbed to death, and his baby daughter, who can't be more than one or two years old, is picked up and bashed against a wall. And Suetonius tries to justify this in his account of the death by saying that she had inherited her father's savagery because she would try and scratch the faces and bite the faces of those who held her. So Suetonius has never met a baby.

[Kate Lister]

Calm down, Suetonius. What they've done there is they've literally wiped out not only him, but any future chance of any succession from him whatsoever.

[Caligula]

Exactly. No more issue. That's the end of the line. The Senate briefly talk about restoring the Republic and they all head off very excitedly up one of Rome's seven hills to discuss how they're going to put plans in motion. Meanwhile, the Praetorians are running around the palace. They find Claudius, Caligula's uncle, hiding behind a curtain, and they go, he'll do. And they put him on a litter, bring him to their camp, and they say, he's ours now.

[Kate Lister]

This is the problem with every single one of these assassination attempts, is they've got nothing sensible lined up afterwards. Like, the Praetorian Guard need to have an emperor. He's the one who pays their bills. And it never, ever works. A few people go, should we have a republic? And then someone goes, we can just have this guy as the emperor again. They go, oh, all right, then. And then he's terrible too. Well, it's a hell of an ending for Caligula. And I started by saying, do you think that we could call him a historical fuckboy? How much of his sexual excess and debauchery do you think contributes to his legacy and even to his. His death? I mean, if he'd been completely chaste, do you think he would have still been awful?

[Caligula]

I think sexual excess plays a really big role in his life and that really characterises his reputation afterwards. I also think he did engage in an awful lot of fuckboy behaviour, and he just shags around an awful lot, both with women and with men. There's a consul called Valerius Catullus who proclaims quite publicly that he had buggered the Emperor and was quite exhausted by his sexual demands. So Caligula is active, he's passive, he's shagging anybody with a pulse, he falls in love with an actor called Monesta and goes and passionately kisses him on stage whenever he performs, which would have been so shocking for a Roman senator. It would be like, I don't know if I can say this, it would be like kind of King Charles getting up on stage at the Royal Variety Performance and French kissing a nipple tasseled stripper. That's kind of the level of. That's kind of the level when it comes to an emperor on, on stage.

[Kate Lister]

It would make a few headlines that, wouldn't it? It would definitely, yeah. And when it came to sex, like, his excess of it was like a deliberate performance and a deliberate fuck you to convention and again to the Senate of I'm not going to behave in any way that you deem decent and sensible. I'm just going to completely upturn everything, I think.

[Caligula]

So he's not unique among the emperors for being very sexually active and engaging in lots of sexual humiliation. I mean, also Augustus, funnily enough, according to Suetonius, behaves exactly like Caligula did. He invites senators to dinner, to banquets, and then he will publicly take away the woman that he is most attracted to, the wife he's most attracted to, have his way with her and then bring her back all disheveled, you know, cheeks, ears burning, and comment on her performance. Caligula is accused of doing the same thing, but for Augustus, apparently. Suetonius tells us he did it more for policy than for lust. It's politics.

[Kate Lister]

What a lust shit.

[Caligula]

I know, right? How is that politics?

[Kate Lister]

It's not policy.

[Caligula]

Talking about trade deals.

[Kate Lister]

Well, maybe we'd get more things done if we can tell.

[Caligula]

Advice, please. Oh, good God.

[Kate Lister]

Alexander, you have been wonderful to talk to. Thank you so much. If people want to know more, more about you and your work, where can they find you?

[Caligula]

Best place would be my website, which is alexandermeddings.com and I offer guided tours around Rome, mainly on the Appian Way. So come and join me. Love to show you around and thank you so much for having me on.

[Kate Lister]

It's been loads of fun. Thank you. Thanks for listening and thanks to Alexander for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget, forget to like, review and follow along whatever it is you get. Your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or perhaps you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us@betwixt historyhit.com Coming up, we have got episodes of my most favorite royal mistress, Nell Gwyn. We have more boys and an examination of what it meant to be ugly throughout History. This podcast was edited by Tom Delaghi and produced by Sophie G. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets the History of Sex Scandal in Society, A podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

[Alexander Meddings]

I don't know about you, but the number one thing I look forward to when I return from traveling is a good night's sleep in my own bed. That has never been more true than it is now that I have a Sleep Number Smart bed. I get so sore after traveling on planes, but after literally one night in my Sleep Number Smart bed, my body feels restored, rested and relaxed. The fact that my bed actually listens to my body and adjusts to my needs to keep me sleeping soundly all the way through the night is worth it alone. Not to mention, my husband and I never need to argue over firmness because we can each dial in our own Sleep Number setting. Why choose a Sleep Number Smart bed? So you can choose your ideal comfort on either side. And now for a limited time, Sleep Number Smart beds start at $849. Prices higher in Alaska and Hawaii. Exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you see store or sleepnumber.com for details.

[Gold Belly]

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