How Incestuous Were The Habsburgs?

Summary

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society Episode: How Incestuous Were The Habsburgs?
Host: Kate Lister
Guest: Estelle Perrank
Release Date: July 29, 2025

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society, host Kate Lister delves into the dark and tangled history of the Habsburg dynasty, exploring the extent of incestuous marriages within the family and their profound impact on European history. Joined by historian Estelle Perrank, the discussion uncovers the motivations behind the Habsburgs' relentless pursuit of power through intra-family unions and the resulting genetic and political consequences.

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Understanding the Habsburg Dynasty

Origins and Rise to Power
Estelle Perrank provides a comprehensive background on the Habsburg family, tracing their roots back to the noble families of what is now Switzerland. She explains how Rudolf I's election as King of Germany in the 1270s marked the beginning of the Habsburg ascendancy in European politics.

Estelle Perrank [08:04]: "Rudolph the First was the first of the Habsburgs, becoming the newly elected king of Germany."

Expansion and Influence
The Habsburgs strategically expanded their influence across Europe, becoming pivotal figures in the Holy Roman Empire and establishing themselves as one of the most powerful royal families in Europe.

Estelle Perrank [09:39]: "As a noble family, they expanded their territory and influence, becoming a dominant force in the Holy Roman Empire."

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Incestuous Marriages: The Quest for Power

Strategic Alliances Through Marriage
Kate and Estelle delve into the Habsburgs' practice of marrying within the family to consolidate power and secure their dynasty. This strategy was aimed at keeping wealth and influence centralized within the family, minimizing the dilution of power through external alliances.

Kate Lister [15:00]: "They always marry cousins, like. And we're going to go to all these royal families because I think they took the memo too far."

Extreme Inbreeding and Its Consequences
The discussion highlights how the Habsburgs' continuous inbreeding led to severe genetic defects, exemplified by Charles II. The couple's commitment to intra-family marriages over centuries culminated in pronounced physical and mental health issues.

Estelle Perrank [16:37]: "The genealogy of the Habsburgs is crazy. Look: niece and uncles, brother and sister, cousins—it's just all mixed up."

Kate Lister [17:14]: "How massive?"

Estelle Perrank [17:15]: "Huge. His protruding jaw... he can't chew properly because of it."

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Charles II: The Embodiment of Habsburg Decline

Physical and Mental Decline
Charles II of Spain stands as the tragic figure resulting from the Habsburgs' inbreeding practices. His severe physical deformities, including a protruding jaw and large tongue, alongside his inability to produce an heir, underscore the dynasty's downfall.

Kate Lister [23:03]: "It's very difficult. So he can't eat. He can't really communicate. I do feel quite sorry for him."

Historical Impact
Charles' inability to produce an heir led to a war of succession, fundamentally altering the balance of power in Europe. His reign marked the end of the Habsburg dominance, leading to shifts that would shape European politics for centuries.

Estelle Perrank [33:02]: "This is the son of Carlos. He didn't have any kids at all."

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Societal Attitudes Towards Incest in the 16th Century

Normalization of Inbreeding Among Nobility
The episode explores how incestuous marriages were not only normalized but also strategically employed by royal families to maintain power. Unlike today, where such practices are taboo, the Habsburgs viewed these unions as necessary for dynastic continuity.

Kate Lister [24:20]: "They equated physical unappealing with moral failing, reinforcing the stigma around Charles II's appearance and capabilities."

Modern Perspectives and Ethical Implications
Kate and Estelle reflect on the ethical dimensions of the Habsburgs' practices, drawing parallels to modern societal norms and the taboo surrounding incest. They argue that while historical context provides understanding, such practices are unequivocally condemned today.

Estelle Perrank [35:06]: "We're not talking here about brother and sister, first cousins or niece and uncle. Right. Like, niece and uncle is very linked as well."

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Legacy of the Habsburgs

Political and Cultural Impact
Despite their tragic end, the Habsburgs left an indelible mark on European politics and culture. Their reign saw significant territorial expansions, colonization efforts, and influencing major historical events like the discovery of the New World.

Estelle Perrank [40:10]: "Generational inbreeding can lead to birth defects, but also global colonization in some cases."

Continued Influence and Modern Descendants
The conversation touches on the remnants of the Habsburg lineage today, noting that while the dynasty's political power has waned, their legacy persists in modern European monarchies and historical narratives.

Estelle Perrank [37:30]: "The Spanish monarchy still exists and maintains a connection to the Habsburg legacy."

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Conclusions and Lessons Learned

Kate and Estelle conclude by reflecting on the broader lessons from the Habsburgs' history. They emphasize the dangers of unchecked power consolidation, the ethical implications of incestuous practices, and the lasting impact such actions can have on both individual lives and historical trajectories.

Kate Lister [38:30]: "But they took it too far. 150 years of inbreeding led to this."

Estelle Perrank [40:33]: "But they kept being a very European and even global country. Let's face it, we're talking again about global empires."

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Final Thoughts

Betwixt The Sheets offers a nuanced exploration of the Habsburg dynasty, blending historical analysis with candid discussions on the personal and societal ramifications of their incestuous practices. Through engaging dialogue and insightful commentary, Kate Lister and Estelle Perrank provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of one of Europe's most infamous royal families.

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Notable Quotes:

• Kate Lister [17:14]: "How massive?"
• Estelle Perrank [16:37]: "The genealogy of the Habsburgs is crazy. Look: niece and uncles, brother and sister, cousins—it’s just all mixed up."
• Kate Lister [24:35]: "Yes."
• Estelle Perrank [40:17]: "Spain is far better to have someone that can’t eat food or talk properly than risk an English prince coming over."

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Follow & Engage:
For more intriguing episodes on the interplay between history, sex, and scandal, subscribe to Betwixt The Sheets on your preferred podcast platform. Join the conversation and explore how historical narratives continue to shape our understanding of society today.

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

Hello everyone, it's me, your host, Kate Lister. I'm just jumping in before the episode to ask you for a little favor. If you are enjoying betwixt, and I hope that you are, we'd love it if you could vote for us for the Listeners Choice Awards at the British Podcast Awards. If you follow the link in the show notes, it should take you to the place you need to go and it would mean the world to us. We were shortlisted last year and the one before that and the one before that. We were so close and it just made us want it even more. I think we can do it this year. Right on with the show.

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[Kate Lister]

Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are listening to Betwixter sheets. And for those of you that don't know, for any newbies that have just wandered in, this is quite a naughty podcast. Well, we don't mean it to be naughty, but we are looking at the history of naughty things so we do stray into the occasionally rude. And frankly, that's why most of you are here anyway. But I do have to tell you, this is an adult podcast broken by adults to other adults about adulty things and adulty wake up and arranged subjects need to be an adult too. And I have to tell you that to cover our asses in case anyone keeps listening and happens to get offended. Have I covered everything? Are we all good to go? All right, let's do it. Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the fairest of them all? As you gaze upon yourself in the morning, you can't help but see the generational traits passed on by your parents and your grandparents. You have your father's eyes, your mother's smile, your grandparents hair. No, that. That can't be right. But spare a thought for Charles II of Spain, who was no looker. And the reason for that was because the legacy being passed on by his parents was not so much for from a family tree as a family shrub. I think that's fair to say. Charles was the poster boy for royal incest, not the most enviable of legacies, which is slightly ironic because he never had any legacy of his own. He was so inbred that he was infertile. He was so warped by generations of incest that he actually gained the nickname the Bewitched because people thought his protruding jaw and large tongue, amongst his other less desirable traits, were the result of a curse. What were the beliefs and attitudes around incest in the 16th century? Why did they keep doing it? And could anything have been done to help Charles? Stick around and we will find out more. What are you a funny man?

[Samantha]

Oh, money. Of course you're supposed to rise when.

[Kate Lister]

An adult speaks to.

[Samantha]

I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness.

[Kate Lister]

What beautiful d. Goodness has nothing to do with it.

[Samantha]

Deari.

[Kate Lister]

Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Cait Lister. The central question of today's episode is how incestuous were the Habsburgs? But another question you might be asking yourself is, well, who the hell were they? And that's a fair one too. And here to answer both those questions is historian Estelle Perrank who's going to help us get to know this long running royal dynasty a little bit better and find out why they couldn't stop marrying each other. But before we delve into that, I have to to ask you once more, just once more, if you would cast a vote for us at the listeners choice awards and you can do this in the link in our show notes, it really would help us out right now. That's on the way. More incest. Here we go. Hello and welcome to betwixt the sheets. It's only Estelle Parank. How are you doing?

[Samantha]

I'm very good and super excited to be with you today, Kate. It's so exciting.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, thank you so much. This is gonna be lots and lots of fun, this one. As well as absolutely horrifying.

[Samantha]

Yes.

[Kate Lister]

Because we're talking about the Habsburgs and I normally start by saying how did you get into this research? But I've got a note here saying that you're related to the Habsburgs. Is that right?

[Samantha]

Yes. Actually, it's a funny story. So I honestly not sure I should talk about this so much because like when are we gonna about when we talk about the iceberg, it's going to be crazy. But basically my dad loves genealogy. It's so funny because he didn't want me to become a historian really. And now he's, you know, he's retired and I think like he's becoming the new historian of the family. And he's done all the genealogy, you know, from outside of the family, the parents, and then from my mom's side and on my mum's side, we realized that we were actually descendants of the Habsburgs. But I promise you, we don't do what they did. Right. Like which we were going to discuss. Kate.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. We'll preface it by saying that very distantly related.

[Samantha]

Look at, look. But my chin is very small.

[Kate Lister]

She has a beautiful chin. Everybody. I can absolutely confirm.

[Samantha]

I've never had this compliment before. Kate, you're the best.

[Kate Lister]

So there'll be people listening to this. Kate, I don't understand what the issue is. Explain to us who the Habsburgs were and then maybe your reason for going, we don't do that anymore will become a little bit clearer for everyone.

[Samantha]

Yes. I think let's go back to the origins. Right. Who they were. So in the 13th century, or even before that, even the 10th century, they kind of a noble family that live in the lands where now it's Switzerland, obviously at the time it was not called Switzerland. They were a noble family. Like any other noble family, I would say. But as any noble families, you have ambitions and you always end up on a generation that is massively ambitious. And it's what happened around 1270s where you had Rudolph the First. So he's the first of the Habsburg. Really. You know, like what we know about the Habsburg and that night, I think is also so very interesting. Is became the newly elected king of Germany.

[Kate Lister]

An elected king.

[Samantha]

Exactly. And it's. I think it's such a surprise for so many people that they were elected kings in the medieval and early modern period. It's mostly true also for Poland and Lithuania, where they were like electing their kings. Actually a French prince, you know, in the, in 16th century became elected Polish king. But here it's what happened. But what happened? Obviously elected. Do you call it elected? Like, I mean, it's not an election like, you know, when the people have their choices.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, okay.

[Samantha]

Yeah. You know, like it's not the persons were like, oh, we like this guy. No, no, no. It's more or less, you know, like the noble families agreeing on someone. But at the same time it was a title that was a bit weird. It was contested by others. So he ended up going to war. But what's so interesting is that little by little and like any big, you know, family, any noble family or even royal family is going to expand his territory.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Samantha]

And we end up. So let's move forward. Like, you know, we're under 13th century and they grow, you know, they're just a more and more important family. And I think what people don't realize is these, we call it like this German territories. Right. And so there's Vienna, Switzerland, you know, so Vietnam, Austria. But Vienna becomes a very important, very important city. Especially, you know, when there's going to be like with the Ottoman empires, like, you know, fights and stuff. But all these terror stories are going to become more and more important. And then there's obviously the Holy Roman Empire and the Alps book played the cards well again. To become a Holy Roman Emperor, you have to be elected again, not by the people.

[Kate Lister]

Interesting. Yeah. Not by women and not by the commoners.

[Samantha]

Oh my God, who cares about them, Right? Who are they? So they rose to power. What's actually a bit sad is where we're going to get why we talked about my chin. Is that the evolution of their history or their story in many ways, you know, different stories, is that at some point they're going to make an alliance with Spain and that's that that branch that's going to become the biggest problem when you really look at it. When you really look at the genealogy of things. So one of them is going to. He's briefly called Philip the First, but he's Philip the Handsome. Honestly. I saw some portraits. I don't know.

[Kate Lister]

May or not handsome, maybe, but.

[Samantha]

Oh, come on, Kate, you know what people say. Maybe other time I'm like, ugly is ugly.

[Kate Lister]

Ugly.

[Samantha]

Handsome is a cat. Is a cat. Handsome is handsome. All right, like.

[Kate Lister]

But someone must have thought he was. Or was it ironic? Was it like an ironic name of.

[Samantha]

No, I think. I think maybe the others were. Maybe they were weird. Very ugly. Yes, Maybe that's what. Anyway, he was cool for the. The handsome. And he's going to marry Juana of Aragon and Castile, the daughter of Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabelle of Castile, the sister of Catherine of Aragon, first queen, you know, of Henry vii. And Joanna of Castile is going to be called Joanna the Mad. Her story is very complicated. And that's when the Alps book branch starts really like the Spanish one, you know, and it's with Charles. Charles Van is going to become Holy Roman Emperor. So he's going to, like, you know, be the descendant of all the Habsburg in Germany, but now he's also the king of Spain.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Samantha]

And it's very important here because here it becomes a real umpire. I want to insist on something. Spain in 16th century is the strongest power of Europe, okay? Of Europe, not of the world. You know, I know people think Europe is the world, but it is the most powerful country. More powerful. Way more powerful than France. Sorry for France, but. And way more powerful than England. I mean, England is just, you know, fighting to know who could be on the throne. Or you're a pretender. Are you this lost prince of England? You know, like, they're like, no one bloody cares. No one.

[Kate Lister]

Spain is where it's at.

[Samantha]

Yes. And, you know, they do the discovery of the New World, but then they are like two massive territories. You have all the German countries that we've discussed, you know, with Austria, Hungary, like all of these big territories, and now you have Spain, and Charles becomes both Holy Roman Emperor, you know, that is elected. But really, what is that, by the way?

[Kate Lister]

The Holy Roman Emperor. Because you've got kings and then you've got the Holy Roman. What is the Holy Roman Emperor?

[Samantha]

Basically, it's always come with the Crusades, and it comes with trying to have a land that defends Europe and that is Holly and that, you know, we always talk about. I'm laughing about it because I find it Funny, but please don't judge me for that. But you know, the fall of the Roman Empire.

[Kate Lister]

Yes.

[Samantha]

It comes from all over. It's like trying to resurrect, kind of.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, okay.

[Samantha]

But at the same time, it's way more complicated than that because you have so many territories, so many duchies, so many people with noble families who could claim territories. And that's why we have the Italian wars in the first half of the 16th century. It's so highly complicated because France has a claim, but Spain has a claim. You know, like, so many people have claims through their, you know, ancestors. And it's also because there was the collapse of the Roman Empire and trying somehow to revive it. And then with the Crusades, it became something that really was important for the people, but also to justify.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, did the Holy Roman Emperor hang out with the Pope? Was that sort of their job?

[Samantha]

That's where it's also interesting. It should have been. But also, you know, let's not forget that Charles V actually sacked Rome in 1527.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, this is complicated, isn't it?

[Samantha]

It always is when there's power and money, isn't it? You know, like, when you think about today's world, I love when people are like, it's so complicated now. I'm like, babe, like, I mean, when has it not been complicated, you know?

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Samantha]

Okay. It's been always kind of crazy.

[Kate Lister]

So we've got kings and we've got popes, and we've got this Holy Roman Emperor who's kind of running around without an empire. For now.

[Samantha]

Yeah. But for now, Charles. Charles V is both. He's the king of Spain, and he.

[Kate Lister]

Stood up for a second.

[Samantha]

He's so strong, Kate.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Samantha]

You know, that he create lots of PR for the English, you know, like, because he sacked Rome in 1527, he's in total control of the Pope. That's why the Pope don't give an annulment to Henry vii. That's why Henry VII is going to think about, you know, what sort of. I'm going to do what I want. And that's really all because. I'm sorry, I'm gonna blame Charles for this, but all because of Charles. All because of an Habsburg. Right.

[Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Samantha]

And then it becomes crazy. Let's go back to the chin and stuff, because I think people need to understand. It becomes crazy, Kate, when you really, really think about it, because Charles is gonna want to really secure his power, but not just for him. Like, you know, all these men that have a crazy idea. It's the same with Henry the 8th, Francis the 1st of France. Crazy idea about their legacy.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Samantha]

About their dynasty. And he has a son and he has a daughter. He's gonna make his daughter marry his brother.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, hang on, hang on. His daughter's gonna marry his brother. So that's uncle and niece marrying together.

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

That doesn't sound good.

[Samantha]

They always do this to the point where Ferdinand. So Ferdinand is the brother of Charles, and Charles, at his death, is gonna split his empire. He's gonna give the Holy Roman Empire to his. To his brother, Ferdinand.

[Kate Lister]

Ferdinand, yeah.

[Samantha]

And he's going to give his country, you know, Spain to his son, Philip II of Spain, you know, the. The husband of Mary the First of England. @ first.

[Kate Lister]

Yes. Yes.

[Samantha]

That's why it becomes very interesting is that Ferdinand is going to have three children. Two of them are actually going to marry one another. So brother and sister.

[Kate Lister]

No, just. We have to have some standards around here, people.

[Samantha]

There's no standards. Absolutely no standards.

[Kate Lister]

Brothers and sisters. Full brothers and sisters.

[Samantha]

Yeah. And he's going to marry his niece.

[Kate Lister]

Shit.

[Samantha]

It doesn't end there. That's what we're going to talk about. The chain.

[Kate Lister]

This has gone very Targaryen, hasn't it?

[Samantha]

This is completely Targaryen, though. The Targaryens are very good looking. And I don't know how. How that happened.

[Kate Lister]

That's a good point.

[Samantha]

That's a good.

[Kate Lister]

That. That's a good loophole we've picked up on there is they're too good looking to have been that inbred, quite frankly.

[Samantha]

Like, honestly, the genealogy. Honestly, I invite all the listeners here to go and Google the genealogy of the habsb type. Spain as well. You'll see how crazy. Like. So it's niece and uncles. It's brother and sister. Cousins. Yeah. That's the closest one. That's the craziest one.

[Kate Lister]

We'll allow a cousin to marry a cousin.

[Samantha]

In royal families, they always marry cousins, like. And we're going to go to this. We're going to go to every royal families. Because I think that right now there are the example where they took it too far. They. So they took this kind of, like.

[Kate Lister]

Got carried away with that.

[Samantha]

Yeah. You know, keeping the power within the family. They got the memo a bit too far, you know.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, they really went with that.

[Samantha]

And. And when you look, it's always niece, uncle, cousins. And we end up in the 17th century with Charles II, who has this massive, massive chin.

[Kate Lister]

How massive?

[Samantha]

Huge. It's like so prominent. To be fair. I say it's funny, but I feel bad for the guy, you know, like, he's not, it's not really his fault, like, you know, that his family did that. Right. Like, but to a point where a British envoy came to the court, Spanish court, and reported back. I think in a way to make fun, but also maybe, but you know, as a shock. He literally wrote Kate that the guy can't, you know, eat all food. Like he can't because his bottom Joe, like the row of Steve can't touch the top one. So he can't, he can't chew. You know, in a way, I want to say that's the least of his problem because he had lots and lots of illnesses, smallpox, measles. He literally caught everything. He's also like, we believe that he had depression. No doubt. I mean, if you can't chew, I mean, like, fair, I'd be depressed. And he couldn't have, he didn't have any children. He couldn't. I mean, I wasn't there. But you know, he was probably the one who had the problem. Right?

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Estelle after this short break.

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[Samantha]

Looking.

[Kate Lister]

At a picture of him. And I suppose we have to remember that whoever painted that was being paid a lot of money to make this look as good as it possibly could have looked.

[Samantha]

When you say that, it's even worse, Kate.

[Kate Lister]

They would have, like, been make this look as good as you possibly can. And it's still bad.

[Samantha]

He doesn't look good.

[Kate Lister]

It's a very oddly shaped head that.

[Samantha]

That fella has got and lots of his family, like, so his ancestors. Right. We call it the ABS book Joe. Right. It's like, it's. It's very prominent. It was never as bad as that. So he was like the worst. He became like the emblem of, like, inbreeding, absolute family where, you know, post boy, isn't he? He is. And it's kind of like, in a way, it's very sad because when you really look at his life, such poor health, mental health, you know, down the toilet as well. See, just like he almost had nothing going on for. I don't even. You know, Kate, you know, we make fun of kings and queen and stuff, and rightly so, because there are lots of powers and wealth and why not? But at the same time, let's not forget that there's a human being here.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Samantha]

Who must have suffered a great deal. Now, what I love as well is that on the top of research right now, and there's a lot of great historians, especially in Spain, researching Carlos II's reign, and they're trying to give, like, a bit more credit.

[Kate Lister]

Well, that's nice.

[Samantha]

Yeah. Because apparently there's also lots of propaganda, you know, like, trying to really make him as ridiculous as possible.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. Because a lot of the stuff that I've read about him doesn't, like it sounds really bad because I was just about to ask you, like, all right, he's got a big jar and he's not very well, but as a person, what was he like? And a lot of the stuff I've read is. I think I read that, like, he liked to sit in a bucket and spin round in circles.

[Samantha]

Yeah. I think all of these are, like, way of undermining completely his reign and importance. But I think that some researchers have actually described that actually he was not that useless. So it is true that he was extremely. Like, he was poorly and was ill, but he was not just that stupid. And I think It's. It all comes from lots of rumors and gossips around him and trying to make him as ridiculous as possible. Also, I think when you really think about it, because of the way he looked, it's very easy to make him a target. You know, we don't think about that. But, like, as you said, when you look at a portrait, it really. I mean, it's so bad to say that, but he looks awful. He really looks dreadful.

[Kate Lister]

Like, we're in real fuglyville stuff here. There's no saving it. You don't. I'm sorry, but that. That must have been, like, a really defining feature for this guy, though, because, like, there's no escaping it. We can be as polite as we want to be and, you know, like, let's be nice and let's not judge people. But, like, he looks weird and he can't chew.

[Samantha]

Try to talk that way. Okay. Try to put you. It. It's very hard to pronounce words. So even if you're not, like that mentally unstable and, you know, it would have been very hard for him to communicate.

[Kate Lister]

Very difficult. So he can't eat. He can't really communicate. I do feel quite sorry for him.

[Samantha]

I do. Like, honestly, I do. Because there's a part of, like, of pleasure when you chew. Like, you know, like, the textures. All of this is never real experience.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. Lots of soups.

[Samantha]

Yes. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

So that was my producer's joke. Sorry, Stu, I'm stealing. I'm stealing your jokes.

[Samantha]

I think it's a good one. But, you know, it's what the British envoy said. He was just gobbling things up, really.

[Kate Lister]

Like, today we still struggle with how people look. I'm being very nasty, and I shouldn't be, but, like, we still judge people a lot by what they look like. And we're kind of working on it, and we're trying not to do it. But back at this, when Charles II is walking around having his soup, because they had a much more spiritual understanding of physical appearance. So to them, they would have been. If somebody is physically unappealing, they would have equated that with a moral failing. Is. Would that be about right? I mean, he is. He is the king, so, you know, like, Shut up.

[Samantha]

He is the king. But there is judgment also. It's not just that. It's like what we discussed, like, very hard to communicate, very hard to be eloquent. Right. So then you start judging his mental ability. And what I mean by that is, like, his intelligence.

[Kate Lister]

Yes.

[Samantha]

And as I said, that's why, like, Some scholars in Spain. It's mostly in Spain that they're doing the work, trying to really re. Establish him as not this just bad king or just this mad king. And they're trying to. I mean, I'm not on top of the research, Kate, but like, I can see your eyes. Like, oh, my God. I want to know more about this. But it. I think they're trying to go beyond the gossips and the rumors and trying to look at what actually happened, what he did. Because, you know, his death is going to trigger the Spanish War of succession, where France is going to fight very hard. You know, also like France, like, you know, Louis XIV is married to an Habsburg married to reserve Spain. It's her brother Carlos. Like, so, like, it's very interesting to see how all royal houses. And that's where I think I wanted also to. To go to. Because we're talking here about the Habsburg with. When we end with Car. Carlos, who is like the one who can't have children anymore, the one who has the most massive draw, but also the one who is very ill. He is very ill. That's in the medical records. I don't think, like, there's anything that we can really pretend that didn't happen. Let's not forget. So these absolute. Took it too far.

[Kate Lister]

Did they work it out that that's what was causing these defects at the time? I mean, I know genealogies are way off.

[Samantha]

I wonder. Because I don't think they did. Because they did it for two centuries.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. They didn't figure that out, did they? No.

[Samantha]

150 years. So I don't think they. Because even Charles the first has quite this kind of prominent. Not as bad. No. You know, even Philip ii, when you look. Philip ii. Yeah, but you don't think you. I mean, you. Yeah, fine. It's, you know, it's okay. But it's when they kept doing, like, when you really look at their genealogy, usually you're supposed to have a set of four, eight grandparents. Like, you know, then you have 60, you know, it goes eight, 16. They don't have that. It's just all they share the same grandparents. They have like, same aunts. Like, it becomes crazy. Someone's niece is someone's wife and then someone's mother and the. The aunt of someone else that worship that she's actually also a cousin. It's why you end up with Carlos. Right? It's like, boom, you. Because you've done all of this. No, I want. I'm not trying to defend the Alps but am I. It looks like I'm going to. Others did that as, like, not as bad. But, you know, the royal families of Europe did marry one another. They were cousins sometimes, but it was never as such repetition. They're saying that as well. When you look at Victoria and, you know, there were some fears that. And I think at that point, because of what happened with the Habsburg and Carlos, they were kind of aware of being careful of not marrying too much, because all the royal families, you know, I love it when you're like, oh, the British royal family. But the British royal family is also Spanish, is also French, is also. You know, and same with the others, Right. Austrian family is also, like, British, you know, so they all marry one another because it's the elites. Right. It's how you keep a power.

[Kate Lister]

It's kind of like a small dating pool as well. If you say, look, we can only marry other royals, that you're not allowed to marry anyone who isn't a royal, then you've immediately limited it to. Right. Well, then it's just the family, then, isn't it? That's it. That's the only people. It's such a stupid plan.

[Samantha]

But that's where you. Sometimes. You do have noble families. Let's not forget, like, you know, are some big duchess. Like, you know, the Duchy of Aquitain, you know, with El of Aquitain being such a big prize for everyone, but also herself being related somehow to some of these men. So it. I think it's kind of. As I said, the AB took the memo too far.

[Kate Lister]

Like, they took it further than anyone else, really, that I've heard about, apart from maybe the Egyptian royal family, like brothers and sisters. That's. It's pretty intense, that, isn't it?

[Samantha]

It is pretty intense. It. It didn't happen all the. Obviously, like, they tried to avoid that, but, like, it. Nieces and uncle, you know, when. When everyone was shocked. I don't know, like, you. You watch Game of Thrones, right, Kate? Like, yeah, I'm not. Yeah. You know, when. Oh, my God, Daenerys is, you know, the aunt of Jon Snow. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. That's so. What do you mean? It's so bad?

[Kate Lister]

Like, it's not a slow Tuesday for the Habsburgs. That. That's just.

[Samantha]

That's just normal. Like, they should definitely marry and conquer the world. Like, what. What are you talking about?

[Kate Lister]

It would be weird if they didn't do it, quite frankly.

[Samantha]

And with the House of Dragon, I don't know if you watched that the prequel to Game of Thrones. But like, you have also, the queen is marrying her uncle as well to keep the Targaryen blood. Right. And when they don't, which is funny because, you know, when he didn't and married, like, the king, her father just married someone who was outside of the family. And then somehow her kids are weird. That makes no sense, does it? Like, her kids doesn't seem to be completely stable. I just thought, like, it's. It's funny how fiction can. Can change rules easily.

[Kate Lister]

I think so. It's amazing, though, when we were all watching Game of Thrones, when we first started that show, and we were like, oh, my God, this is awful. Like, brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, like Jamie and. And seriously, how awful. But then, like, really quickly, within a few episodes, we were all going, oh, it's a shame they're not getting together anymore. And, like, all, like, normal parameters have just gone out the window. Like, oh, no, John. So I think you should shag your auntie. It's so sad that you can't.

[Samantha]

It's just literally, you're like, oh, my God, no. Why are they related? And then you don't care. You're like, y.

[Kate Lister]

They don't care anymore. So I guess maybe. Maybe that's what was happening back in the day, is it was just. Meh. Whatever.

[Samantha]

Yeah. I think in the end, what was more important, Kate, for them was to retain the power. You have to understand here that we're talking about huge empire, that it meant that, you know, even though we call elected, it was by people that were going to elect the same family. So as long as they kept it together, then that's the best thing. Right. They felt. They felt extremely safe. And they felt as well like, that they. They were in control of the other royal houses. And in many ways they were, because obviously, you know, France and England were not doing that. They were not marrying one another just to keep, you know, power. And so it was a way for. For the Habsburg to never share. I think they feared that someone would say, oh, but, you know, I mean, imagine like, they married an English princess instead of her cousin or their sister or whatever, and then she has a male heir. That male could contest the uncle, and it would be English, and so then it would be England who becomes more powerful. So I think it's really about. There's an obsession with his dynasty about power.

[Kate Lister]

It's far better to have somebody that can't eat food or talk properly than risk an English prince coming over. I'll be Back with Estelle after this short break.

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[Samantha]

Carlos didn't have any kids at all?

[Kate Lister]

No.

[Samantha]

I mean, again, I wasn't there, but there are rumors that he couldn't get it up. And there's a rumor. Okay. Okay. Kate, you're gonna love this. You're gonna love this. I think he. There's a report that said he had only one testicle.

[Kate Lister]

This is the son of Carlos. Is it?

[Samantha]

Yeah, yeah. The one with the poster guy.

[Kate Lister]

The huge.

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

He didn't have testicles. He has a jaw so big that.

[Samantha]

He can't eat just one testicle instead of two.

[Kate Lister]

This isn't good, is it?

[Samantha]

To this point, I don't even know if he. I don't know. I wasn't there. Did he try? I don't know.

[Kate Lister]

I mean, I imagine that some effort would have been put into it. The amount of concern that these people have about preserving Dynasty. They're not gonna let him with his one testicle, get away with this. I assume somebody would have tried to help this lad do what he was supposed to do.

[Samantha]

Well, it failed.

[Kate Lister]

It failed. No children.

[Samantha]

Massive failure, but massive, you know? I said massive. So it's the end of his. There's a war of succession, but it doesn't. The absolute don't end there. But what ends, though, is this very strong inbreeding, you know? So, for example, I Always get the comment about Marie Antoinette being a Habsburg. Right.

[Kate Lister]

I was just about to ask you about her.

[Samantha]

Yeah, Maria Theresa. Right, her mother. But here we're talking about the 18th century. So, you know, like when Carlos dies in 1700, that's the end of all these crazy. Like the others, you know, there are some branches and that's probably where I come from. Guys, look at my little chin.

[Kate Lister]

She has a lovely chin. And she can talk properly as well. You've heard her for yourself. There's no. There's no incest going on here. My grandparents were cousins and whenever I say that on the show, my mum tells me to point out that it wasn't her family that did that. It was on my dad's side.

[Samantha]

Yes. Not from my family.

[Kate Lister]

Not. It wasn't my family that did that, thank you very much. But like, it still happens, doesn't it?

[Samantha]

But it was accepted. I mean, first cousin is hard, but I mean, it's. I think now it's really frowned upon. Like, you're like, you should know, but second cousin and stuff. Of course there are some that, you know, manage to do that, but I think somehow you don't even realize you're related, you know, because it's. It's cousins but from different branches.

[Kate Lister]

God, yeah. Sometimes they might not even realize properly how. How related they are.

[Samantha]

No, but. But it's not that. Then it's not that bad, is it? We're not talking here about, you know, brother and sister, first cousins or niece and uncle. Right. Like, niece and uncle is very linked as well.

[Kate Lister]

Weird, that one.

[Samantha]

So you know, Mario, Teresa and Marie Antoinette, they are Habsburg, but they are from the next. They're in the 1700. 1800, like, well, 1700. And it's later on and they no longer have. You know, some people love making fun of Marianne. Oh, but look at her chin a bit. But honestly, you're just being a proud here because that's not true. Like, I'm sorry. She's beautiful.

[Kate Lister]

Did she have a completely. Not. Did she have any health issues that you might have said with the result of inbreeding or she got away with it?

[Samantha]

Not that I'm aware of. No. Also, I don't think there's. As I said, I think it ends with Carlos, really. And then obviously the Habsburg think are gonna last longer in the 18th century, 19th century. And the real end is like for any. Not any, but lots of royal families. If you haven't had a revolution like in France, you know what, like, you know, The Industrial Revolution, 1850 and then the World War I is really when there's a shift of everything changing and where, you know, these families no longer have grounds for power.

[Kate Lister]

So is there still a Habsburg dynasty today? Is it just you just carrying on?

[Samantha]

I mean, if it was me, like, there's lots of castles that I want, Kate. I don't. I'm greedy.

[Kate Lister]

We'll find an army. We'll find an army, and we'll go and get your ancestral lands back immediately.

[Samantha]

You know what? It's so funny because on my dad's side, we actually related to the British royal family. And my dad was like, go there and ask them to have some rooms in Buckingham Palace. And I was like, I'm sure they would love to give me one room in Buckingham palace, just because I was related to Eleonor of Provence, you know, who was Queen of England in the medieval ages.

[Kate Lister]

So where are the Habsburgs today, then? Is there still a Habsburg dynasty? Are they still marrying? Are they still in control of anything?

[Samantha]

I wouldn't say so. But I think what we forget is that obviously, you know, with all the changes, it's the same with the French royal family. You know, there are some people that are, like, direct descendants of Louis xvi. And if we decided to restore the monarchy, I'm sure we could find someone. So now I'm wondering that maybe if they were trying to restore the Habsburg, obviously, and there's a Spanish royal family that is still survived. Right. So they're descendant of them as well.

[Kate Lister]

Yes. Yeah, that's true.

[Samantha]

But I guess there's a problem here, like, with the German countries and stuff. The world has changed so much, right? The territory, like, now they're countries, they're sovereign countries. And what land would be. So I would say that this, obviously, the Spanish monarchy is that. Yeah, like, yeah, that still exists and still in power. And maybe I should ask them for room in their palace. This.

[Kate Lister]

I'd support you. I think that that's a good idea. So what can we learn from the Habsburgs then? Because they have kind of gone down in history as just this, like, absolutely mad bunch of crazy people who kept marrying everybody at a family get together. Like, not a good idea. I was doing some research around inbreeding, and I'm going to be very careful what I say, because I don't want anyone to think this is a good idea. But, like, to really get genetic defects, it has to be multiple, like inbreeding at very close relations. So marrying your cousin or your second cousin, you're probably. Probably gonna be all right as long as those kids don't also marry there. Yeah, but they were too close. And so they've just become this.

[Samantha]

But they kept marrying also their cousins. Right. It's not just one generation. That was a problem. Again, they kept doing it, and they kept doing it for 150 years.

[Kate Lister]

150 years.

[Samantha]

Kate, I'm gonna say something that I think is going to scare you.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, Go on.

[Samantha]

I'm sorry. Please don't hate me. Think about it like you're saying that, you know, the absolute is like this crazy, you know, family, like inbreeding family. Right. At the same time, it's the most powerful one.

[Kate Lister]

God, that is scary.

[Samantha]

They are calling the shots. They are the ones like, they go to war. I mean, we always make fun, you know, of Spain and you know that the English and I love that, you know, that Elizabeth first won against Spain and Philip II at the same. He came back in 1593. There was constant wars. We're talking here about Spain conquered, you know, the Americas.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Samantha]

North America, but Central America, South America. All of this is the Habsburg. So for people who are completely just in, like. I mean, it worked for a long time. And what's very interesting also, I think, and I just want to say that because I do lots of women history. Women are very important in the Habsburg. They're also calling the shots. Some of them are governors, like in their own rights of some lands and stuff. So I think that's. In many ways it's weird, I think, because it's then their own family. There's lots of respect as well for women's role, you know, that you don't necessarily have with, you know, like, if you look at Henry VII and how much he respected his wives. Do you see what I mean? So I think that's interesting to see it that way as well.

[Kate Lister]

Generational inbreeding can lead to birth defects, but also global colonization in some cases.

[Samantha]

That's the lesson. Great. Not sure that's going to be a publishable episode.

[Kate Lister]

As a final question, have they left us any legacy beyond looking at them going, yeah, don't marry your uncle. That's a great idea. Like, in a sense of dynasty or country or military, have they left us anything?

[Samantha]

Spain.

[Kate Lister]

Spain.

[Samantha]

Yeah, they left us Spain.

[Kate Lister]

That's not bad, is it?

[Samantha]

The Habsburg are gonna. Obviously there's the massive fall with Carlos. So then, you know, the inbreeding is gonna stop kind of thing on that level. But they did continue. They kept being a very European country and even global country. Like, let's face it, we're talking again about, as you said, you know, global empires. Unfortunately, the Europeans did a lot of that and Spain is one of them.

[Kate Lister]

So no, it's all bad.

[Samantha]

It's all bad. Agree with you on that, Asda.

[Kate Lister]

You've been so much fun to talk to. I knew you would be. And if people want to know more about you and your work and if they want to send you their thoughts on this episode, where can they find you?

[Samantha]

They can find mostly on Instagram nowadays because I can't stand any other platforms at the minute.

[Kate Lister]

Speaking of dynasties.

[Samantha]

Yep, exactly. Otherwise, I work mostly on European monarchies, royalties, diplomatic relations, and I've published distinctively on Elizabeth the First and Berlin, but also with their relations with Europe, which I know so much about.

[Kate Lister]

Brilliant. Thank you so much for joining us. You've been an absolute hoot.

[Samantha]

Thank you, Kate.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you. Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to Estelle for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, you can email [e-mail] Coming up, we've got episodes on Cleopatra in our Royal Sex series and an episode about who Were the Vestal Virgins? All coming your way. This podcast was edited by Tondelaghi and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again. Betwixt the Sheets History of Sex, Scandal and Society, A podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

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