How To Fake Virginity

Summary

---

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society

Episode Title: How To Fake Virginity
Host: Dr. Kate Lister
Guest: Dr. Julia Martins (Living History)
Release Date: October 24, 2025

---

Overview

In this engaging and irreverent episode, Dr. Kate Lister and sex historian Dr. Julia Martins dive deep into the enigmatic—and often absurd—history of virginity, with a focus on the social, medical, and cultural mechanisms devised to test and fake virginity throughout the ages. Ranging from medieval nostril examinations to leeches and pig’s blood on wedding sheets, the conversation is both eye-opening and darkly humorous. The hosts shed light on patriarchal anxieties, the complexities of gender and sex, and the perennial invention and reinvention of the “proof” of chastity—all with their signature wit and clarity.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Elusive Concept of Virginity

• Definition Fluidity: Julia emphasizes how “virginity” is slippery and entirely socially constructed.
  • Quote: “Even virginity, which we're talking about today, it can be an elusive concept. It seems straightforward when you think about it at first, but in reality, what is virginity? It’s not as easy as you might expect.” (06:37 – Dr. Julia Martins)
• Cultural Context: What counts? Penetrative sex? Masturbation? Anal sex? Oral sex? The answer depends on time and place.
• St. Augustine Anecdote: Trying to verify a woman’s virginity could, according to Augustine, “destroy” it—illustrating the paradox.

Why Is Female Virginity So Heavily Policed?

• Patriarchy in Practice: The obsession stems from inheritance, legitimacy, and ultimately, property and power.
  • Quote: “You can't win. You absolutely cannot win. I mean, when you strip it all back. It's about control, really.” (10:29 – Kate Lister)
• Double Standards: Men’s virginity rarely scrutinized; women’s is imposed upon for familial and societal control.

Medical Myths and Virginity Testing

• The Hymen Myth:
  • The “hymen” as a sign of virginity is a relatively late fabrication—not commonly cited before the 15th century.
  • Not all people have a hymen; it’s not a reliable indicator.
  • Quote: “There's this idea that the hymen is almost like a Tupperware lid that goes over a pot... and then it’s just—it's just nonsense.” (15:51 – Kate Lister)
• Testing Methods:
  • Medieval/early modern ‘tests’ included the two-finger tightness test, urine clarity (“sparkling like Prosecco!”), nipple color, nostril width, and neck girth.
  • Quote: “Your urine as a virgin was supposed to be really clear. Sometimes it's described as white or even sparkling... I imagine it like, kind of, I don't know, like Prosecco vibes, I guess.” (37:02 – Dr. Julia Martins)
  • Little to no scientific basis; often more about control than accuracy.

How Women Faked Virginity

• Social Pressure:
  • High stakes for brides to ‘perform’ virginity, leading to a cottage industry of methods and recipes.
• Wife vs. Sex Worker:
  • Brides might only need a one-off performance; sex workers needed sustainable, less harmful tactics.
    • Sex Worker’s Technique: The famous “Fanny Hill” sponge soaked in blood, clever sleight of hand, and dramatic acting.
      • Quote: “There is a story called the London Jilt... For there is nothing more advantageous to a woman that drives this trade... than to appear to be a novice in it.” (33:17 – Dr. Julia Martins)
• Common Fake Methods:
  • Insertion of berry juice (safer), pig’s blood, animal bladders, or even leeches to cause bleeding.
    • Leech Example: “If you had a leech inside of you, which would cause a wound, essentially... you would bleed. So... you are bleeding for your husband. So I think, honestly, it should count.” (23:26 – Dr. Julia Martins)
  • Use of drying and astringent herbs (plantain, comfrey, alum) to falsely create “tightness.”
  • The infamous “bloody sheets” tradition, though not as universal as commonly believed.

Cultural and Pornographic Obsession with ‘Defloration’

• Virginity & Disease:
  • 18th century obsession, partly from the belief that only virgins were “safe” against syphilis.
• Imperialist Parallels:
  • The language of “virgin land” echoes in imperial conquest and sexual dominance.
    • Quote: “...there are parallels to be made with imperialism as well, because there's this idea of men going into virgin land territory and making their mark.” (31:17 – Dr. Julia Martins)
• Male Ego:
  • The expectation that men “prove” their prowess through “defloration.”

Lasting Impact and Modern Echoes

• Persistence of Myths:
  • Hymen repair surgeries, virginity pledges, and ongoing “tests” reflect how old beliefs persist in new forms.
  • Quote: “The idea of virginity is still with us and it's still very powerful today, and it's still a nonsense. So the idea that you can test for it... is still faulty science, and it still happens to this day.” (41:24 – Kate Lister)
• Gender Double Standard Endures:
  • Societal value for men in “experience” vs. women in “purity.”
  • False beliefs about vaginal “tightness” and promiscuity.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Absurdity of Tests:
  • “They're just gonna open their legs and then like music by Enya would play or something... Or it's just, it's like there's a best before date stamped on it.” (16:56 – Kate Lister)
• On Agency and Performance:
  • “It's as easy to make [virginity] as a pudding—that you just created it, you just made it, you just faked it.” (34:04 – Kate Lister quoting Charlotte Hazer)
• On Control:
  • “But all of it was used to so powerfully control people.” (39:39 – Kate Lister)
• On Survivor Wit:
  • “I admire the creativity, but... a nasty game to play all the same. But I guess don’t hate the player, hate the game.” (40:49 – Kate Lister)
• Dr. Julia's Hope for the Future:
  • “I wish—I hope—we're going towards a place where it doesn't matter and it's not a part of your identity. It doesn't define you or your worth, ideally.” (42:30 – Dr. Julia Martins)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:00–04:50 – Introduction: The absurdity of virginity and purity standards
• 05:17–06:37 – Julia’s path to body/sex history scholarship
• 07:02–09:14 – What is virginity? The impossible definitions and early Christian takes
• 10:29–10:36 – Patriarchy, inheritance, and the drive for control
• 12:21–13:37 – Myths about the hymen and “proof” of virginity
• 15:09–16:07 – The contemporary persistence of hymen myths (“Tupperware lid” analogy)
• 16:34–17:29 – Ridiculousness of virginity tests (tightness, two-finger test)
• 20:26–21:59 – Stakes for brides and sex workers, performance of purity
• 22:09–23:29 – Medieval recipes: berry juice, leeches, and herbs for faking virginity
• 25:13–27:20 – Della Porta and the commodification/censorship of “restoring virginity”
• 27:44–28:39 – The bloody sheets custom: fact vs. myth
• 29:07–30:35 – 18th-century deflowering obsession, venereal disease panic
• 32:24–33:17 – Sex worker trickery and the performative aspect of “virginity”
• 37:02–38:23 – Bizarre non-genital virginity ‘tests’ (urine, nipples, nostrils)
• 39:36–40:49 – The ultimate power play: control by any means
• 41:24–43:22 – Modern vestiges: surgery, “virginity bands,” hypocrisy persists
• 45:07–46:38 – Disproving the “eternal” myth of virginity

---

Resources & Where to Find Guest

• Dr. Julia Martins – Living History:
  • YouTube Channel
  • Blog, Instagram, and other social platforms under @LivingHistoryDrJuliaMartins

---

Closing Thoughts

With humor and candor, this episode exposes the ludicrous and sometimes harrowing history of virginity as a social construct. Whether with pig’s blood, leeches, or “sparkly” urine, the real trick has always been navigating the double standards and controls placed on women’s bodies—an issue that remains all too relevant today. As Lister sums up: “Don’t hate the player, hate the game.”

---

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

Hi, I'm your host Kate Lister. If you would like betwixt the Sheets ad free and get early access, sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every single week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.

[Growtherapy/Instacart Advertiser]

If you're navigating anxiety, depression, relationship challenges, postpartum struggles, or something else, you deserve care that meets you where you are. Growtherapy is designed to help you find a therapist who fits your needs and supports the way you want to feel. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the US offering both virtual and in person sessions. You can search by insurance provider, specialty treatment methods and more to find a therapist who works for you. Whatever challenges you're facing, Growth Therapy is here to help. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com acast today to get started. That's growththerapy.com acast growtherapy.com acast availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

What do you think makes the perfect snack?

[Kate Lister]

Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Could you be more specific?

[Kate Lister]

When it's cravinient. Okay, like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at a.m. p.m. Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just.

[Growtherapy/Instacart Advertiser]

A second at AM pm.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

I'm seeing a pattern here.

[Kate Lister]

Well yeah, we're talking about what I.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Crave, which is anything from AM pm.

[Kate Lister]

What more could you want? Stop by AM PM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's cravenience AM PM too much. Good stuff. Hello my lovely betwixters. It's me, Cadalista.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

You're you?

[Kate Lister]

I am me. And this is betwixt the sheets. So I think you know what's coming your way. That's right, it is the fair Dues warning. This is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about dirty things in an adultery way. Covering range adult subjects. You should be an adult too. We do that. So everyone just feels a little bit safer, a little bit more prepared for what might be about to go into their lug holes. Right. On with the show. So you're thinking about getting married, are you? And this woman that you have in mind, well, what are we to make of her? Does she dress properly in public? Is her dress not a little bit short? Is her top not a little Bit low. Is she a little bit too friendly? A little bit too flirty? And are her nostrils not a little bit too big? I think they might be. And you should be careful because she might not be pure. Oh. If there's one thing big nostrils will signify, it's that a woman has loose morals, apparently. I wonder, when she lies in bed next year, will she snuggle up or will she be repelled across the room by some invisible force like the unchaste woman she is? Honestly, that happens to me all the time. You should probably check her purity, her chastity, her virginity. But how are you gonna do that? What are the tests that you could use? And more importantly for this episode, how do you go about faking it in the first place? Right, on with the show. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, history of sex scandal in society with me, Kaylister. Virginity has, for some reason or another, been so important throughout most of history. But what is it really? I mean, what do you lose? The idea you lose something? Where? Oh, the thing's gone. Where's it gone? I can't get it back now. It's all bollocks. It's just a social media construct. But it has been very important throughout most of our history and is still important around the world to this very day, unfortunately. So there have always been ways to fake it. And today I'm joined by Dr. Julia Martins from Living History to find out more about the early modern people and how they would fake their virginity, whether for their wedding night or to please a paying customer. Bloomers off betwixters. Let's do it. Well, hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Julia Martins. How are you doing?

[Dr. Julia Martins]

I'm great, thank you, Kate. How are you? I'm so excited to be here with you.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, well, I'm thrilled that you are here. In fact, I'm surprised that we haven't had you on earlier, quite frankly, because you are a historian of. Well, primarily of the body in early modern history. Would that be right?

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yeah, I'm interested in all things to do with gender and sex and medicine. So I've been listening to the podcast for a long time and. And it's been so incredible, so I'm so excited to be a part of it.

[Kate Lister]

What brought you to this area of study? It's a fascinating area and we're going to get on with. And we're going to be talking specifically about virginity and the body today. But how did you end up studying the body in the modern period.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

I was interested in translation at first. So for my masters, at first I was doing this program in France and Italy and seeing how medical recipes were translated from one language to another and what changed in the. Of translation. So recipes for remedies, abortion formulas, all kinds of things. And then from there I started noticing that even more than alchemical recipes, the recipes that I was really interested in were to do with the body, the female body, reproduction and all of that. So I gradually started gravitating towards how those recipes were translated and how they were censored or corrected, quote unquote, and how sort of the knowledge about the body was reshaped as it was translated and spread. So I came, yeah, through book history and translation.

[Kate Lister]

It's fascinating because you wouldn't think that the idea of the body would change all that much because bodies have remained pretty constant. It's the same for me, being a sex historian. It's like the idea, like what goes in where and who does what to who's kind of constant. But it's amazing how much actually changes.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yeah. And the way how we understand body parts and functions and sex and all things is so culturally constructed, that is constantly changing. Even virginity, which we're talking about today, it can be an elusive concept. It seems straightforward when you think about it at first, but in reality, what is virginity? What even is it in terms of definition? It's not as easy as you might expect. Right.

[Kate Lister]

That was going to be my first question, actually. That was my first. I've written it down here. And like, Julia, what is virginity? Which, again, it's so deceptive, that question. When I taught sex history to students, I used to love throwing that one at them of like, what's virginity? And everyone would be dead confident and they'd start, I know what it is. And then we'd sort of pick it apart. Then in the end you're like, I don't know what it is actually. What do you define it as?

[Dr. Julia Martins]

I think it really depends on the. The source material you're working with, the primary sources and how they understand virginity. Because for some of these Italian texts about virginity, you can kind of lose to yourself. So you can, quote, unquote, corrupt yourself.

[Kate Lister]

How do you do that?

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Pleasuring yourself? Right. So that is something that can happen, but that can vary a lot, a lot through time. And I actually came across a passage by St. Augustine. And so he's writing in the 5th century CE, so a long time ago. And he's writing about theology and about virginity, which, as we Know, has been very important in Christianity. And he actually wrote that a midwife could destroy a girl's virginity while trying to ascertain it. So it's a very. It's tricky, right, because by trying to see whether someone was still a virgin, you could kind of corrupt them, quote unquote in the process. Right, so, yeah, so what counts, right, like homosexual sex, does that count? Sex with yourself, does that count? Or with objects and props and things. And what about anal sex and all things to do, you know, with other practices, oral sex? You know, it does depend.

[Kate Lister]

I mean, I suppose traditionally we think of it as penis and vagina sex, don't we?

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yeah, true. It tends to get very patriarchal very quickly, I think. But even then, how do you ascertain it? How do you make sure someone is or isn't a virgin? I think that's the tricky question. Right?

[Kate Lister]

And it's very gendered, very binary gender thing, because we don't seem to care that much about men's virginity. Or maybe I'm wrong in that. Has there been a point in your research where men's virginity has been as important as women's?

[Dr. Julia Martins]

No, not nearly, no. I mean, not really. I mean, I think that in the medieval period there are some religious men who become known as being virgins and all of that, but I don't think it's ever to the same level. It's never to the same extent of scrutiny that women have gone. Have gone through in history. And I think it's mostly to do with having children. Right. And the legitimacy of heirs and inheritance and property. So I think very quickly it becomes about property and passing on your family wealth, inheritance to the right people, quote unquote. And not so much about moral ideas. I think it's more practical concerns in a way. What do you think?

[Kate Lister]

Oh, I mean, that's the question, isn't it? Anthropologists have been raring about this one for a while, is what is the obsession with virginity? And not just virginity, by extension, women's sexual behavior? Why is it policed so much more heavily than men's who just seem to get a free pass? And then it's like, help yourself. And then we get in this really weird situation where men are expected to have lots of sex, but women are expected not to have sex. And then we get mad at the women for having sex with the men who are supposed to have lots of sex. I say, what on earth are we doing?

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yes. So catch 22. There's no way you can win, basically.

[Kate Lister]

You can't Win. You absolutely cannot win. I mean, when you strip it all back. It's about control, really.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

It is, yes.

[Kate Lister]

That's what's going on.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

It is about control. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

I think I do buy into the theory that you put forward there that it's about ensuring legitimate issue and about money, because money is ultimately power, isn't it? And this obsession with a woman being a virgin when she gets married is ultimately to ensure that the bun in the oven is her husband's.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yeah, definitely. Though, having said that, I came across a book. It's a 17th century French book that has been translated into English as the Mysteries of Conjugal Love Revealed, which great title, but there's a passage that says so very like, lenient towards women in a way. It says, might it not be allowable for a woman who has passed some years of her life in unlawful pleasures to secure her husband's good opinion on the wedding night by taking up some blood, which she treasured up before, and putting it into the privities, End of quote. So it's kind of, I don't know, there's some leeway there, right. Of, you know, well, maybe the woman is trying her best and the peace in the home and whatnot. I don't know. I thought it was surprisingly like understanding for a 17th century text to talk about the preservation of peace in the family.

[Kate Lister]

That's talking about faking of virginity then.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yes, yes.

[Kate Lister]

Okay. So we're into like a theological discussion about what is virginity anyway? Like, what is it supposed to be proving? And when you start to pull it apart, it's actually, it doesn't really mean anything. And you get into loads of small, small, weird small print with it about, well, fingering is okay, but like having sex isn't. And this kind of weird thing.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Definitely.

[Kate Lister]

But when we're talking about proving it, they have some very clear ideas. So what is it that they're trying to prove and how do you prove it?

[Dr. Julia Martins]

So I think throughout history there have been lots of different ways of kind of trying to test virginity, but it's never straightforward because even the hymen, this is something that I was really fascinated by when I started reading more about it. And Helen King is someone who, who I'm sure you've read her work. She's someone who writes a lot about that, about how the female body has been understood in different ways throughout time. And essentially the hymen isn't really talked about before the 15th century, right?

[Kate Lister]

Nope.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Though people do write about blood. So there's this idea that Virgins are going to bleed, and that's normal and expected. But there's not the idea that the bleeding comes from rupturing the hymen, which I found interesting, because then it's about. Well, it's about the friction and, you know, rough handling and all things unpleasant, things like that, but also ruptured vessels in that area. So there's this idea that you are going to bleed, and that's normal and expected, but it's not necessarily because your hymen is being ruptured until the 15th century. And even then, there's no consensus because some doctors don't even think there is a hymen. So it's kind of. Not everyone agrees. Not even the doctors agree with each other.

[Kate Lister]

What is a hymen? Just as a real starter question for this stuff, like, what exactly is that?

[Dr. Julia Martins]

So, again, I think it depends on who you're asking. And I think it can get very frustrating trying to define terms like that, because people have understood them in different ways. So hymen, the word itself means membrane, right? In Greek. But before there was the hymen, as, like, what we're talking about right now, the word hymen was used to talk about different membranes in the body. So you could have the eyes or the heart, all kinds of membranes, but not the one we're referring to. And this I learned from learning. Helen King. I thought it was really interesting how there were hymens, just not the one we're talking about right now. And, yeah, so theoretically, that's the idea that it's a membrane, but some people don't have it. Some people are born without. Some people have thick hymens or flexible hymens, all kinds of things. All bodies are different and unique. And so I think that's the thing that Renaissance doctors realized, was that if you do bleed on your wedding night and your hymen is ruptured, then, yes, you're a virgin. But if you don't bleed, it doesn't mean that you're not necessarily a virgin. Maybe. Maybe you were born without. Maybe you did something else that broke your hymen. You know, Nicholas Culpepper, who was a medical popularizer in the 17th century, he was writing all kinds of popular medical books, right? And he said that bad humors could essentially kind of break away your hymen. So, you know, maybe you're not to blame. Maybe you are a virgin. You're just not bleeding. But having said that, some people would be expecting the blood, so you might resort to kind of faking it.

[Kate Lister]

Because that's a tall order, isn't it? I mean, yeah, the hymen myths are still with us. Like, was it the World Health Organization that within the past few years has had to like put out notices about virginity tests around the world today to remind people that it's nonsense.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

It is, it is awful. It's a human rights violation really, like virginity testing. And, and having said that, if you Google like fake hymens, artificial hymens, you can get them. So it's, it's capitalism at its worst. Right. So I think that's the thing is, and in many cultures there are concerns with virginity testing and we know it's awful. And what are you even testing for? Because how reliable can that be? Like, are there any clinical uses for that? No, I doubt that. Right.

[Kate Lister]

No, there's this idea and this is the myth, this is the nonsense that the hymen is, is almost like a Tupperware lid that goes over a pot that's completely like intact until. Until the point of penetration. And then they'll be. That's just, it's just nonsense. It's just absolute cobblers that.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yeah. When you think about it for longer than five minutes, I think it all becomes very silly very quickly. And of course, I don't want to make light of because it causes real harm, this concern with virginity and hymens. But it all. It is a bit silly. Like I said, it's like a Tupperware lid and the names that hymens have had through this throughout the centuries, like seal or they give this idea of like lock and key and, or a lid or something that is closed. But yeah, because you hear a lot.

[Kate Lister]

About virginity tests all throughout history about women having their virginity checked. Like Joan of Arc had hers checked and like various regal people before they got married had it checked. And I always think, like, what exactly are they looking for when they do that? Because they're very sparse, the sources. It just says that, oh, they were found to be intact. I'm so.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Well, what.

[Kate Lister]

What were they looking for? They're just gonna open their legs and then like music by Enya would play or something. Or it's just, it's like there's a best before date stamped on it. Like, what is it that. And I have no idea. Do you know what it was that they were looking for?

[Dr. Julia Martins]

I think before the hymen became a thing, I think it was mostly tightness that people were looking for.

[Kate Lister]

Well, that's scientific. Brilliant.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Usually it was the kind of two finger test which sounds horrific. And it was horrific, of course. But it's this idea of, you know, how narrow, how tight is the passage.

[Kate Lister]

Brilliant.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yeah, it is. It is ridiculous. But that explains why so many of the ways of restoring or faking quote unquote virginity have to do with tightness in making things narrow for the men so that they feel that they are the first ones there.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Julia after this short break.

[Growtherapy/Instacart Advertiser]

A PSA from instacart It's Sunday, 5pm you had a non stop weekend. You're running on empty and so is your fridge. You're in the trenches of the Sunday scaries. You don't have it in you to go to the store, but this is your reminder. You don't have to. You can get everything you need delivered through Instacart so that you can get what you really need. More time to do whatever you want. Instacart for one less Sunday. Scary. We're here. If you're navigating anxiety, depression, relationship challenges, postpartum struggles, or something else, you deserve care that meets you where you are. Growtherapy is designed to help you find a therapist who fits your needs and supports the way you want to feel. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the US Offering both virtual and in person sessions. You can search by insurance provider, specialty treatment methods and more to find a therapist who works for you. Whatever challenges you're facing, Growth Therapy is here to help. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com acast today to get started. That's growtherapy.com acast growtherapy.com acast availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

[Don Wildman]

What started the Civil War? What ended the conflict in Vietnam? Who was Paul Revere? And did the Vikings ever reach America? I'm Don Wildman and on American History Hit My expert guests and I are journeying across the nation and through the years to uncover the stories that have made America. We'll visit the battlefields and debate through where the nation was formed, meet the characters who have altered it with their touch and count the votes that have changed the direction of our laws and leadership. Find American History Hit twice a week, every week, wherever you get your podcasts. American History Hit A podcast from History Hit.

[Kate Lister]

We've just covered a little bit, like why this was so important, but there's clearly an enormous amount of pressure on women to show up. Even if they were virgins. They must have been panicking that they would somehow not be able to be proven to be. So. So you do get people fake in it, don't you?

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think so, and I think it's to be expected. Yeah. The stakes are high and I think there are basically two groups of people who could fake it, potentially. You have wives or women getting married, girls getting married who are not virgins anymore, or who are virgins but are afraid that they won't perform their virginity the way that they're supposed to. So this is one group and they might resort to lots of different methods and recipes and things. And then you have the other group, especially in Italy and then later in Britain, and that's something I know you've written about quite a bit about sex workers and about how they would perform virginity for their clients. And so both these groups would kind of use these recipes and these formulas in different ways. Right. Because if you're a wife and you're going to essentially perform your virginity once, then you could perform, potentially use more theatrical methods or something that might cause a little bit of injury to your body because it's just going to be the once. Not justifying it, obviously, it's horrific, but it's something that you would do once. Whereas if you're a sex worker who would be doing something like that more often, then you want to be careful. Right. Of how you're going about it so that you're not injuring yourself, hopefully.

[Kate Lister]

Right, yeah.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

So I think those are kind of the two groups that would fake virginity, in a way.

[Kate Lister]

How would you do this and what do the sources tell us?

[Dr. Julia Martins]

So I think in the medieval period, in the trotula texts, which are very interesting, and if people haven't read them or taken a look, I really suggest Googling them. And Monica Green is a historian who has worked a lot with this and they're really fascinating texts about the female body. And so in these texts there are, I think, 10, nine recipes about how to fake it, essentially. Some of them are milder, using, like, berry juice. Doesn't sound great having berry juice inside you, but it's not. It doesn't sound as bad, I guess.

[Kate Lister]

It's not the worst I've heard. No. Okay.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

I mean, it could be worse. Right. And some of the other recipes are worse because one of the methods would be using leech. So, of course, we always come back to leeches in the history of medicine, don't we? It's like it's. You try to stay away from the leeches, but if you're interested in the history of medicine and sex, you'll eventually come back to the leeches. Leeches. But, yeah. So if you had a leech inside of you, which would cause a wound, essentially, eventually there would be a scab right over the wound, and then with friction afterwards, you would take the scab off, you would bleed. So there would be. You know, so it's just fake because it's not blood from rupturing the hymen, but it is your blood. You are bleeding for your husband. So I think, honestly, I think it should count.

[Kate Lister]

And you've put a leech up your hoo.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Ha.

[Kate Lister]

I mean, that's commitment, honestly.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yeah, it's horrific. Awful. And other formulas in these texts are about making things tight. Right? So, like, constrictive formulas using, like, plantain, like, all different kinds of herbs, comfrey roots, alum.

[Kate Lister]

Turns up a lot, doesn't it?

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yes, especially because it turns red as well.

[Kate Lister]

I didn't know that.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

So, yeah, there's lots of ways in the trotula. So medieval medicine, and then later in the Renaissance, and this is how I first came across this subject, was reading this Renaissance writer, Giambattista della Porta. So he was Italian, and he was writing about the wonders of nature, secrets of nature, magical things. And by natural magic, what he meant was marvelous things that kind of went against what you would expect in nature and ways of manipulating nature to create marvelous, wonderful effects. And one of the things that he found incredible was restoring virginity. So he listed lots of different formulas. So these formulas became available to everyone, essentially because the book was translated. It was written in Latin first, same as the trotula. So you would only have few people reading, essentially because not everyone read Latin. Right. But then as it starts getting translated, then it's available in Italian and in French, other languages. And then more and more people have access to this. And it was quite controversial because with more readers having access to this problematic material of faking virginity and potentially deceiving your husband, it becomes controversial very quickly. And he also had lots of other recipes about flying witches and things like that. So he faced the Inquisition twice, which.

[Kate Lister]

Holy fuck, I didn't think you were going to go there. Okay. Wow.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yeah, because he had this formula called the witch's ointment. It sounds like an aphrodisiac, but it had hallucinogenic properties as well. And so according to him, witches would use this to fly to their sabbaths and have orgies with the devil, all kinds of things.

[Kate Lister]

How was he writing about this, then? Because I can understand, like, he's gonna get in trouble for this kind of stuff. And he must have realized that this is quite. He can't have written in a book of going, hey, hey, women. If you want to fake it, here's how you do it. Because he had to go, like, how does he write about it? Does he write about it and go, this is an awful thing that you definitely shouldn't do. And then gives you all the information, like, how does he talk about it in his book?

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yeah, so in the first edition, I think he's not that careful. He doesn't really add too many caveats. He just says, like, the witch's formula. He says he learned it from a witch. So, you know, not great.

[Kate Lister]

Not a great start. Oh, come on.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

It sounds made up, really. But yeah, so he says that. And then very quickly, as he starts getting lots of criticism with the new editions, the recipes start being censored heavily. Recipes for abortion, for flying witches, for faking virginity, for making a man impotent. All kinds of things that shouldn't be mainstream, according to the church. And so in the following editions, translators censor heavily and they add passages like. So that evil people can't do evil things. We have omitted this passage. And the author himself does that later on with new additions, saying, like, no, this is not the good kind of knowledge that I want to share, so I'll just not say anything.

[Kate Lister]

Someone's backtracking.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Well, yeah. I mean, wouldn't you. After.

[Kate Lister]

Yes.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

I mean, after talking to the Inquisition people, I think I would reconsider what I was writing, honestly.

[Kate Lister]

All right, okay. So he's got his mad ideas.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yes.

[Kate Lister]

There's lots of stuff about bathing in alum and kind of strange, like, things to make it tight, things to fake blood. Like, sometimes you find descriptions of, like, giblets inside the vagina, so blood will be produced. That sounds like rather that than a leech, I think.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Though ideally neither. But yeah, you could have. But you could have, like, a fish bladder because that was kind of small enough, and you would fill it with blood. Pig's blood looks very similar to human blood, so pig's blood would be a good choice. And then you would have that inside you, and then with intercourse, it would explode, it would erupt, and then you would bleed out. It's all very unpleasant.

[Kate Lister]

It's all deeply unpleasant and almost completely useless. But I suppose it could be a good deceiving trick, because is it true that you would have to show blood on the sheets in order to prove Virginity, or is that something more like a historical myth? Have there been cultures and times that did that?

[Dr. Julia Martins]

I think it's not a myth, but it's not as widespread as we tend to believe. I think in some areas it lasted quite a long time. I think in Britain, because of the Reformation, this became associated with Catholicism and with Catholic practices. So it wasn't. Protestants frowned upon the sheets thing for a bit. But that doesn't mean that people weren't interested in seeing the blood and all of that. And I think afterwards, with the Restoration and the libertines and all of that, then it becomes all about seeing. About deflowering virgins and seeing the blood. It becomes kind of a cultural fever, really.

[Kate Lister]

Does they get like. By the time you get into the 18th century? I mean, I don't know what it was like in the early modern period, but Certainly in the 18th century you get this fascination with virginity, with deflowering young girls. I mean, I don't know if it's just because pornography is being more widely produced at this time, so we can accurately trace it, but they have a real thing. Yes, about deflowering young girls. And you've kind of got to look at that. Well, that's not really about protecting patriarchal inheritance. Right. Something else is going on here.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

I mean, I think from the medical side of things, I think it's got to do with venereal diseases and especially syphilis, because as syphilis starts to spread, the only kind of safe sex you could have for the men, I mean, not for the woman, but the only kind of safe sex that the men could have would be with a virgin. Right. Someone who probably doesn't have like gonorrhea or syphilis or anything like that. So that's bad enough. But there's also this idea that by having sex with a virgin, with someone who has not been corrupted, quote, unquote, by sex and potentially by disease, you could. The disease could go from your body to hers, so you could kind of heal yourself through that. Isn't that awful? And, I mean, there are some records in the Old Bailey rape cases in which several of the of the women or girls raped had been raped by men who had syphilis and they hadn't, in an attempt to kind of heal themselves, which is absolutely horrific. And. But it was a belief that people had. So I think the kind of defloration mania, if we can call it that, I think it had to do with that as well. I think it's pornography and chip print talking about all Things to do with sex work. It becomes very popular to read about that. And medical manuals, sex manuals become really popular because you can buy them cheaply anywhere. But I think the syphilis thing plays a part in it, sadly.

[Kate Lister]

Definitely does, doesn't it? And yeah, you're right, you do see that account of the virgin being seduced into sex work and then repeatedly losing her virginity, you see that crop up all times in Fanny Hill. It's in numerous erotica of the time. And there's descriptions there about, like, they use, like, a small knife to make a cut, or they use, like I said, like, pig's blood or something like that. I think a lot of this is about the male ego as well. I think a lot of it is about, like, look, look how mighty my penis is, that it can produce blood, that it can literally change somebody from being a virgin to now not being a virgin, that you ruined someone you've corrupted. It's that important.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

And I also think that there are parallels to be made with imperialism as well, because this is, you know, there's the idea of, like, virgin territory, virgin lands, conquering virgin areas, virgin women in the United States, Virginia. Right. Like after the Virgin Queen, after Elizabeth, of course. But there's this idea of men going into virgin land territory and making their mark. So I think. I don't think it's a coincidence that this happens at the same time as the British Empire is quickly violently spreading and, you know, becoming more powerful. So I think there are lots of layers of symbolism there, to be sure. But I think it is. You're right, it is about violence and dominance and power and male egos. And that's why I love reading the. The accounts in which the. The sex workers are essentially tricking men and laughing at them. I think they're brilliant because it's like the man wanting to be horrible. And then you have someone like Fanny Hill who. Who's just so clever, she has this. I think it's a little drawer right in her bedpost or something. And she has. She has pigs blood. She has a sponge or something.

[Kate Lister]

Yep, sponge soaked in blood. And it's just a quick sleight of hand.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yeah, it's brilliant.

[Kate Lister]

And obviously going, oh, ow. That hurts so much. You're so big.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Exactly. Oh, my God. Yeah. And that's the thing, because even going back to the medieval period with, like, signs of virginity, because we spoke about, like, anatomical things that may or may not be there or the way that the body can present itself, but there's like, behaving like a virgin, right? So there's the modest, like, glance downwards. You have lots of, lots of things that are not really to do with the body that much, but they are more about how do you behave like a virgin. So if you are a sex worker and you're performing virginity, besides the props and the blood and all of that, you would of course be like, oh my God, you know, can't remember who.

[Kate Lister]

Said it, but they said that what's the most flattering thing that you can say to a man in bed? And the answer was, ouch.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Oh my God, that's so sad. Oh, that is so depressing. There is a story called the London Jilt, which is a sex worker or the Politic whore. Great title again. And there's this character, Cornelia, and she says, for there is nothing more advantageous to a woman that drives this trade so prostitution than to appear to be a novice in it. And she keeps on going. Though she has been a whore these 10 years, yet she must still pretend to be young at it and seem as if she had scarce seen men before. For there are a great many fools. So basically it's part of your job to fool men and to pretend to be impressed and all of that. And I guess in that sense, I mean, when you think about sex work in other periods, including today, there is still a lot of that, right?

[Kate Lister]

Performance. There was a madam in the 18th century called Charlotte Hazer, wrote her memoirs and she said of virginity that it was as easy to make as a pudding, that you just created it, you just made it, you just faked it.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Well, she said she lost hers like hundreds of times, right?

[Kate Lister]

She did. She did. She said it was sold hundreds and hundreds of times over. I'll be back with Julia after this short break.

[Growtherapy/Instacart Advertiser]

If you're navigating anxiety, depression, relationship challenges, postpartum struggles, or something else, you deserve care that meets you where you are. Growtherapy is designed to help you find a therapist who fits your needs and supports the way you want to feel. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the US offering both virtual and in person sessions. You can search by insurance provider, specialty treatment methods and more to find a therapist who works for you. Whatever challenges you're facing, grow Therapy is here to help. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com acast today to get started. That's growtherapy.com acast growtherapy.com acast availability and coverage Vary by state and insurance plan.

[Don Wildman]

What started the Civil War? What ended the conflict in Vietnam? Who was Paul Revere? And did the Vikings ever reach America? I'm Don Wildman, and on American History Hit. My expert guests and I are journeying across the nation and through the years to uncover the stories that have made America. We'll visit the battlefields and debate floors where the nation was formed, meet the characters who have altered it with their touch and count the votes that have changed the direction of our laws and leadership. Find American History Hit twice a week, every week, wherever you get your podcasts. American History Hit A podcast from History Hit.

[Kate Lister]

You know, and it's kind of when you find these accounts of, like, women kind of playing the game backwards and sort of making fools of men, like, that's a kind of almost like a nice. Yeah, but sort of belaying that is just this awful system and idea of sexual purity and this idea that you had to, as you were saying, perform virginity because it wasn't just like looking at vulvas or checking for tightness. Like, there was weird tests that you could take as well when the modern period, like urine tests and things that they would look at.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yeah. Because you're urine as a virgin was supposed to be really clear. Sometimes it's described as white or even sparkling, which I find a bit puzzling to imagine, honestly. I imagine it like, kind of, I don't know, like Prosecco vibes, I guess. I don't know. It's very weird. I don't know. But I guess the idea behind it in terms of, like, the clarity of the urine, is that if you had had sex, if you had semen inside you, it wouldn't be clear because there would be traces of it.

[Kate Lister]

Science. There we go.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yeah. I mean, not very scientific, as we know, obviously, but none of it is. In the medieval period and early modern, it was all about the urine and urine tests for everything. Right. So. And some of them made more sense than others. Right. But there were also other silly things like the color of your nipples, the way they pointed, whether up or down, which. Okay, lovely. Also the. Your nostrils. What? There is this idea of a sympathy between the mouth and the nose and the vagina and the vulva and all of that. And that's why we have terms like the mouth of the womb, the neck of the womb, the cervix. We have the cervix, the neck cervix. Right. And then we have cervix. So there is this kind of association between the upper body and down There as well. Right. So there is this idea that if you had sex, your nostrils would be somewhat bigger afterwards.

[Kate Lister]

I suppose it depends where you put it.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

I mean. Yeah, yeah, but I mean, that was one of the signs that people would look for. And the same thing with your neck, it was supposed to get a bit wider. But then when you read accounts of. And this is written by doctors, it's not. It's not folklore, it's serious, quote, unquote, doctors. And they are writing about that. And I always wondered, okay, so let's assume that your nostrils and your neck change after sex. Fine. Like, where's the control? You have to check for them beforehand to measure before and then afterwards to see if there's a difference. Right. But if you're. If you're meeting her for the first time, how would you know? Like, what is a wide neck? It all becomes about policing women's bodies. Right? And control. And the more you read about it and you look into it, the more ridiculous it becomes. It's so silly. But it caused real harm to people. Right? There's real consequences.

[Kate Lister]

It did cause real harm. And particularly in, you know, rich people. Cause they're. The records that we have left is we know that there were times when husbands. Henry VIII doubted the virginity of some of his brides. And the reason that he gave for not thinking Anne of Cleese was a virgin was because the skin on her belly was saggy. I think that's what he said, wasn't it?

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yeah. He just wanted to get rid of her. Honestly, he would have said anything.

[Kate Lister]

But I actually think that that in itself is a really important point, is that he was just trying to get rid of her. Because all of this is just trying to control women. It's all just not. You're not walking like a virgin, you don't have nostrils like a virgin, you don't talk like a virgin, act like a virgin, your vulva doesn't look like a virgin. It's just like none of it really means anything. But all of it was used to so powerfully control people.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yeah, it's awful. And. And that's the thing, like when you read accounts of the madams or the sex workers who were able to sort of not thrive, but sort of survive in this system. Good for them. But it's still a horrible system. And the way that they did well sometimes was by exploring other sex workers. Right. When you had a sex worker who was becoming older, who became a madam, sometimes they had saved to open their own brothels. It's at the expense of other women. So even when they're getting sort of the attention over men, women are still victimized in the process. Right. There's the BBC show Harlots. Right. I think Charlotte Hayes is a character in it. And you see that. Right. Trying to survive in this patriarchal system that was very much built to keep women down. So it's. I admire the creativity, but.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, but a nasty game to play all the same. But I guess don't hate the player, hate the game.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yeah, true.

[Kate Lister]

It's interesting to talk about the concept of virginity in the past, in the early modern period, and it's very easy to laugh a lot of this stuff because you just want to sit them down and go, did you really think that virgin's urine sparkled like Prosecco? Can we just behave ourselves? But. But the idea of virginity is still with us and it's still very powerful today, and it's still a nonsense. So the idea that you can test for it, which is still done all over the world, is still faulty science, and it still happens to this day.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Even reconstruct it, because, I mean, with an infamous lover's knot or husband stitch, the idea that you could go back to your virginal state after giving birth, it's horrendous. But it's again, going back to that idea of. Of tightness and making it tight for the man to feel that he's the first one there and that nothing else has happened before him. So, yeah, it's very theatrical, but it's horrific.

[Kate Lister]

Well, the thing is very theatrical. I mean, you get, like, groups in America that have virginity pledges and they wear virginity bands around their arm to prove their virginity and, like, it's still with us. And you always, like, think, like, what do you count? Because wasn't it. It's a couple of years ago when it turned out that I think I want to say that it was Mormons, but I might have got it wrong, is that they'd worked out that if they had penetrative sex but didn't move, that that didn't count.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yeah, but I mean, that's the thing. Like, you can. Depending on how you define things, you can always find a technicality, a way of getting around things.

[Kate Lister]

As someone that studied the history of this, where do you see us going in terms of virginity in the future?

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Oh, that's a great question. I wish. I hope we're going towards a place where it doesn't matter and it's not a part of your identity. It doesn't define you or Your worth, ideally. And then if you want to think of yourself and your body in whichever terms you relate with or identify with, then that's great. But I think the idea of being labeled externally one way or another and having that assigned value to you, I think that's the problem. But having said that, I try to be optimistic about the future always. But it's tricky because we do see so many surgeries about hymenoplasties and like, design of vaginas and things like that.

[Kate Lister]

And they're all about the same thing, aren't they? They're all about neatness, tightness, Remove any external proof that you might be a woman and not a Barbie doll.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

And it's all the same thing and the same scrutiny.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Never applies to male bodies. Well, I don't want to say never. I'm sure there are men, but like, hardly ever. It's usually about female bodies. You don't see men worried about what they look like. Most of them, I don't think down there. I think they're all like, fin. I know, I'm generalizing. I'm sure some men do worry about it, but it's something that it's gendered.

[Kate Lister]

They worry about size. But then we're back to the same argument, aren't we, about how it has to be so big that it inflicts pain.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Yeah, but there's also the idea that has also gone on forever, that the more women a man has sex with, the more value, quote, unquote, he has. And for women it's the opposite. But if we are talking about, like heterosexual sex, the methods are not mething like, how's that possible? It doesn't make sense. But I think that's the patriarchal world we live in. And hopefully we are moving away from it.

[Kate Lister]

Or you get this nonsense narrative that I've heard sometimes in the manosphere that the more sex a woman has, the bigger her vagina gets. Until it's just this great big gaping, pulsating triffid trying to eat men. It doesn't make any sense. Like, this is completely.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

It doesn't make it. The men who say that have never seen a vagina, I don't think. Or the wonderful things vaginas are capable of. Honestly, I used to volunteer at the Vagina Museum, so I'm very much like. I find that so silly because vulvas and vaginas can. Are incredible. And it doesn't happen like that, that things just go all saggy and it's so silly.

[Kate Lister]

No. And the logic of it doesn't make sense, because if by their logic, if one woman gets with one man who stays with her entire life but has sex every day, then her vagina will stay tight. But if another woman has sex with different men every day, then somehow that has an impact. It's just bullshit. And it's the same stuff as getting women to piss in flasks to see if it's fizzy. It's just gibberish, for sure.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

But what I find interesting about reading different stories about this in different time periods is that you can see that even though women tend to not get the best outcomes in terms of how much power they have, there's never a consensus anyway. So even in periods where, because people sometimes talk about the importance of the hymen virginity and they talk as though it's always been a thing, it's always been important and it's not. It's not true. And then you have the ancients one talking about that, and it took a long time for the hymen to sort of become something that is important. And that's why I find so interesting, studying the history of sex and medicine and gender, you see how some things that are talked about as though things have always been this way, have actually been constructed fairly recently in time. And it's the same when people are talking about abortion being something that has always been unlawful. And that's just not true. We know that's not true. So I think that's. That's why it's important you go back and you see there are so many examples of how things were understood differently or the signs were others. Like when you talk about virginity and nostrils or the. The fizzy wee. It sounds ridiculous, but, you know, it was considered as serious as other signs that. That have aged less in a less ridiculous way, shall we say? So, yeah, so I like. I like to see that there's no consensus and you get widely, completely different accounts depending on who's writing the text. If it's satire, if it's a doctor, if it's pornographer, you know.

[Kate Lister]

Exactly. Juliet, you have been wonderful to talk to. I knew you would be. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

[Dr. Julia Martins]

So I have a YouTube channel called Living History by Dr. Julia Martins, and I have a blog with the same name. I have content in text format and video format for. Because I know some people prefer reading, some people prefer watching or listening. So, yeah, so people can follow me there and Instagram and all of that. But, yeah, I just wanted to say thank you so much for having me because I've been a long time fan of the podcast.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you so much. You've been an absolute treat. Great.

[Dr. Julia Martins]

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Kate. I really appreciate it.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to Julia for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't try any of it at home for goodness sake. But do like review and follow along whatever it is that get your podcasts. And if you would like us to explore a subject or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us@betwixtory hit.com this podcast was edited by Thomas Delagi and and produced by Sophie G. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again. Betwixt the Sheets History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit.