How to Get Cancelled as a Medieval Mistress

Summary

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society

Episode: How to Get Cancelled as a Medieval Mistress

Date: May 15, 2026
Host: Dr. Kate Lister
Guest: Dr. Eleanor Janega

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Main Theme and Purpose

This raucous, irreverent episode explores the life, rise, scandal, and notoriety of Alice Perrers (also spelled “Perez”), famous medieval royal mistress to King Edward III. Dr. Kate Lister is joined by the ever-witty medievalist Dr. Eleanor Janega for a romp through Alice's audacious power grabs, how she embodied both the archetype and pitfalls of the “girl boss" centuries ahead of her time, and the uniquely “cancelled” fate that led to an actual law named against her. The story also casts light on gender, power, and class dynamics in late medieval England, revealing how sex and scandal shaped society.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Who Was Alice Perrers?

• Background:
  • Born c. 1340s, likely from a moneyed, non-aristocratic background ("middling sort") during the Black Death—a time tough to simply survive.
  • Married a wealthy jeweler first; thus, was widowed, had her own money, and was considered highly threatening and independent for a woman at the time.
  • Quote: “There’s nothing more threatening in the medieval period than a widow. Because girly has money. She’s out of the control of a man.” (Eleanor, 08:25)

2. Entry Into Court and Royal Favour

• After her husband's death, Alice became a damsel in the retinue of Queen Philippa, Edward III's wife.
• The Queen's retinue was a mark of status and functioned both as a service job and as a display of conspicuous consumption: “The more damsels you have, the more obviously wealthy you are.” (Eleanor, 17:38)
• Alice likely caught Edward’s eye through a combination of beauty and access, at age 18 to his 55.
• On the King’s attention to Alice: “She was hot. She was hot. You don’t come to the eye of the King of England if you don’t have looks.” (Eleanor, 08:55)

3. Scandalous Wealth & Influence

• Post-Queen Philippa's death (1369), Edward III began openly spoiling Alice with extravagant gifts—over 56 manors, castles, townhouses, and priceless jewelry.
• Alice became, at her peak, the wealthiest woman in England.
• Funding Wars: She was even so wealthy that crusaders sought loans from her to fund campaigns, highlighting her outsized clout.
• Opulence: “She’s got about £20,000… in our money, that’s millions and millions of pounds.” (Eleanor, 29:07)
• On public scandal: “Just imagine turning up at court, all these people grieving for Philippa, and this bitch shows up… in her jewelry.” (Kate, 28:37)

4. Dangerous Ambition: Public Prominence

• Unprecedentedly, Alice was paraded as ‘Lady of the Sun’ in a public Smithfield tournament in 1372—a role usually reserved for the Queen or royal daughters-in-law, snubbing many higher-born women, including the King's own daughters.
• “The balls of this woman.” (Kate, 31:55)
• Alice understood her precarious position and secretly married Sir William de Windsor in 1375 as insurance for her future—a rare power play, but also a sign she knew her enemies were legion.

5. Downfall and Legal Infamy

• When Edward III’s health failed, public and courtly resentment against Alice boiled over. Enemies moved in, and the new King, Richard II, was a minor, so Parliament cracked down on perceived corruption.
• Her most lasting notoriety? A law banning women from practicing in law courts—explicitly naming and targeting Alice herself:
  • “Because a complaint was made… that some women have pursued… disputes in the king’s courts… the king forbids any woman to do it. And especially Alice Perrers.” (Kate reads the law, 45:24)
• On being so infamous she makes the law: “It’s 100% the No Alice club.” (Eleanor, 46:03)
• Banished in June 1376, allowed back briefly, and then banned again after Edward's death in 1377.

6. Attempts at a Comeback

• Alice’s secret marriage to Windsor became a legal loophole: as his wife, prosecutions against “her” lands technically should have involved her husband, thanks to “coverture” laws.
• “You shouldn’t have prosecuted her as an independent woman… this should have been something you did to me… You cease to be a person legally.” (Eleanor, 51:11)
• Parliament tangled over whether her confiscated properties should revert to the Crown or Windsor, finally relenting on several technicalities.

7. Endgame and Legacy

• After Windsor’s death (1384), Alice, ever the fighter, attempted to regain lands from his family, with mixed success.
• Died winter 1400, in her 60s—an impressive feat.
• Much of what’s known of Alice comes from court records, as chroniclers ignored her for fear of tarnishing the royal family.
• On Alice’s tenacity: “She keeps coming back for more.” (Kate, 54:54)
• On historical ironies: “That man never jacked off a geriatric king a day in his life… Alice worked for this!” (Eleanor, 53:48)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Alice’s Scandalous Ambition:
  “You don’t come to the eye of the King of England if you don’t have looks. Let’s be so for real.” (Eleanor, 09:05)

• On Widowed Women as Threat:
  “There’s nothing more threatening… than a widow. Girly has money, she’s out of control of a man.” (Eleanor, 08:25)

• Public Ridicule:
  “The balls of this woman.” (Kate, 31:55)

• The Law Against Alice
  “The king forbids any woman to do it. And especially Alice Perrers.” (law read by Kate, 45:24)

• Alice’s Ultimate Fate:
  “You live by the sword, you die by the sword.” (Eleanor, 49:49)

• On Historical Record:
  “This is highly embarrassing that the royal treasury got handed over to a teenager while the King wandered around… not really sure what’s going on.” (Kate, 55:28)

• How Alice Compares to Other Royal Mistresses:
  “She hit some of the highest highs, but her lows are pretty… I mean, she survives, right? A lot of them don’t. She’s got to be top five.” (Eleanor, 56:39)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [06:42] – Who was Alice Perrers? Her background, class, and rise.
• [09:17] – Meeting Edward III; royal mistresses in historical context.
• [14:48] – “Courtly love,” royal marriage, and mistress culture.
• [22:54] – Alice inherits after Queen Philippa’s death; begins public rise.
• [24:22] – Enumeration of Alice’s real estate and fortune.
• [28:11] – Jewelry, riches, and funding crusades—Alice’s power.
• [31:11] – Smithfield tournament and public prominence.
• [33:00] – Alice’s secret marriage: a backup plan in a hostile court.
• [35:33] – Edward’s decline; rumors of Alice fleecing a vulnerable king.
• [40:32] – Legal scandals, property disputes with the church.
• [43:55] – The famous law: women (especially Alice) banned from law courts.
• [47:55] – Alice’s banishments, returns, courtroom comebacks.
• [51:11] – Coverture and the legal loophole of marriage.
• [53:33] – Death of Windsor; Alice’s battle for her rights posthumously.
• [56:08] – Ranking history’s royal mistresses; Alice’s legacy.

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Tone & Style

• The conversation is brash, tongue-in-cheek, feminist, and full of dark humor about power, money, royalty, and patriarchy.
• Both host and guest are irreverent and celebratory of Alice’s “bad bitch” reputation, while providing serious historical insight.
• Many pop culture references and contemporary comparisons (e.g., “girl boss,” “Me Too-ing the king,” comparing Alice to Anna Nicole Smith and Camilla Parker Bowles).

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Summary & Legacy

This episode paints Alice Perrers as a cunning, ambitious survivor who wielded power in a male-dominated world—delighting, scandalizing, and ultimately terrifying the establishment to the point of being banned by name from law. Her outsized appetite for wealth, her political maneuvers, and frequent comebacks make her a rare anti-heroine of the medieval era, whose legacy still elicits awe and debate today.

Top Takeaway:
Alice Perrers didn’t just get “cancelled”—she got legislated out of public life, but continued to fight for her place and possessions until the end, and deserves a place among the all-time royal ‘bad girls’.

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Find more on Eleanor Janega at the ‘Gone Medieval’ podcast.
Stay tuned next week for an episode on Renaissance scandal!

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

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[Kate Lister]

Hello my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. Welcome back once again. Thank God you're here. Where have you been? We've been on tenterhooks just waiting for you to arrive. But you're here now and that's the main thing. But before we can go any further together, I do have to tell you this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things. An adulty way covering radio stations. You've been an old time on with the show. Foreign. Do you know that you've committed a social faux pas? Because sometimes it's not particularly obvious that you've done it. Is it? Did you hold someone's eye contact for a little bit too long? Did you take the last piece of pudding at a party? Did you get smashed on a work night out and send your boss pictures of your tits? Or. Have you ever had a law? Have you ever had a law that is written specifically about you? A law that names you? No. Well, then you have not been committing nearly enough social faux pas. Welcome to the world of Alice Perez. Hello, and welcome back to Betrix Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lester. They say never meet your heroes, but I would have loved to have met Alice Perez. At one point, she was the wealthiest and the most influential woman in medieval Britain. And Alice got that money primarily by being a huge pain in the ass to everybody except the King, who was obsessed with her. But she really was a bit of a pain in the ass to him as well. And to find out more about this icon, I am joined by the Queen herself, Elena Jarnegger. I mean, who else is going to be able to tell us about Alice, really? All right, we got our coin purses at the ready. Well, let's do this. Well, hello and welcome back to betwixt the sheets. It's the Queen herself. It's Eleanor Yarniger. How are you doing?

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

I'm better for seeing your face, baby girl. We are so back. We are so.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you so much. I hear that you've got a bit of a cold.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

I do. So listen, if you said to yourself, wow, Eleanor's voice sounds even sexier than usual, then that's a weird king.

[Kate Lister]

It's mucus. That's what it is. That's sex appeal.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

It's mucus. You know, one way of looking at it is that we're lubricated. I don't know, but we're. Listen. But nothing can stop me from gossiping, okay? Not sleet, not snow, not sinus infection.

[Kate Lister]

No, no. Stuff you full of flu meds and let's go for it. And we are talking about. Oh, she's so much fun to gossip about. I do love this woman. This is part of our how to get cancelled. And we thought that we would do a royal mistress and a medieval royal mistress who got cancelled quite spectacularly, the one, the only Alice Perez. Oh, God.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

One of the best to ever do it, to be honest. To be honest. Like, we love her.

[Kate Lister]

Was legendary. Honestly, we shouldn't, but we do.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Yeah, we do. You know, I just really respect any woman who can kind of like get the motion moving to this extent in the 14th century. Like, let's go, baby girl. Like, you know, the word girl boss gets thrown around too often these days. But here's one. But here's one. Okay. All right.

[Kate Lister]

She's. So. I don't know what she. She's the ultimate antihero because, you know, you're not supposed to really like her. Like, you can look objectively at what she's done and been like, well, I wouldn't like it if someone did that to me. But I'm quite glad that you did it to a king.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Fundamentally, I think that people do not make kings lives difficult enough. Good point.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

This is, you know, I'm team Ordinary People, you know, as a general rule of thumb. And what is Alice? Ordinary People. So, you know, frankly, how often do we get to see an ordinary person make a king's life hell? Right, right.

[Kate Lister]

Okay. So there'll be people listening. There'll be loads of people listening, actually, who've never even heard the name Alice Perez before. She's not like a huge historical name. So give us in a nutshell, who was she? Who was Alice?

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Well, we don't really know what her deal is until she kind of enters the historical record. We think she's born sometime in the 1340s, which is a really difficult time to get born. Right. Because you're just kind of like, wow, born right in there with the Black Death, huh? Great. Good job.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, of course.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Yeah. So it's like this is the fact that she made it through at all. She's already a scrapper. She's already a survivor.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, she is.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

It's interesting to us because the name Alice Perris, it's like, at first we thought this might have been her maiden name, but. But now we actually think that that is the last name of her first husband. Okay, so she got. Yeah, yeah. Because she got married to a jeweler, which is a pretty good. That's a pretty good marriage. Right. So, you know, we're usually talking about kings and queens and often peasants in the Middle Ages, but there is this whole group of people, you know, the middling sort. Right. Like people who are living these lives in the cities. They have trades. She's from that kind of class, so fairly moneyed, but ordinary. Right, okay.

[Kate Lister]

She's not an aristocrat. No.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

I mean, because we thought maybe at first that she was like the daughter of a knight and she was from Hertfordshire because there is a Paris family there, but it turns out. Nope. Nope. Just marrying in, baby. Marrying in. Okay.

[Kate Lister]

No.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

So she's a hottie with some money. All right, we know that, like, it's. And she's on the loose because her first husband has died. Right? And like, what's a girl to do? There's nothing more threatening in the medieval period than a widow. Because girly has money. She's out of the control of a man. And in Alice's case, we have to understand that she is probably. She's a hot girl.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. I mean, she must have been.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

She's making moves like, you don't. I'm sorry, but you cannot come to the eye of the King of England if you don't have looks like, let's be so for real.

[Kate Lister]

Right, right, exactly. Nobody. What was it Joan Rivers said? No man's ever put his hand up a woman's blouse looking for a library card.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Exactly. She's so real for that.

[Kate Lister]

She's surreal.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

But okay, look, one way or another, she comes to the attention of King Edward III. Okay? And he is the king from about 1327 to 1377. And his deal is that he is the guy who starts making the claim to the French throne that kicks off the Hundred Years War.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, right. Okay. Had we not been fucking about in France until then, then?

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

No, not really. Because the thing is, there's these super tight movements back and forth with France. I mean, English kings often control quite a lot of it. You know, like Normandy is where they come from. Right. Bloody hell. They owned Aquitaine for a while. There were all these lands, so they usually have considerable power over there. But the other deal is that Edward III's mother is another one of my favorite girl bosses. Queen Isabella of France, the she wolf. Who again, you're not supposed to like.

[Kate Lister]

I remember her.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

So listen, Edward III fundamentally comes from a line of women who are like, I don't know, I feel like you can just start shaggin a boyfriend and have him help you take over the throne of England. Right? So as far as Edward is concerned, this is a traditional relationship. And look, England in the 14th century, okay? We're starting off this war with France. The claim to fame is via Isabelle, Right. Because she was a French princess. And also, it's just been messy down there. There was the tour of Nestle Affair. Basically all of the French princesses were having affairs, and so they all got disinherited. There's. There's nowhere, Right. It's a crisis down there. But hear we got Edward on the throne. Yeah, It's. Oh, girl, like whole other kettle of fish. England, we gotta understand, is England at the time, right? We're not talking about Scotland. I am not talking about Northern Ireland. We're talking about England itself. Now, Edward also comes to the throne, as I just kind of mentioned, because. So his mom had staged a civil war against his father, Edward ii. Edward ii, one of our notable twink kings.

[Kate Lister]

That's him. Yes. The one. We've spoken about him before. The one allegedly, red hot poker up the bottom. But probably that didn't happen.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Probably that didn't happen. Probably he just died. So, yeah, like, the red hot poker up the bomb thing, great story. We can all agree, but probably this is just people hating on Isabella, like, for daring to girlboss too close to the sun and depose her husband with the help of her boyfriend, Right? But one way or another, we get Edward III on throne, he comes to the power, and he's like, mom, love all this. Love the work, but I am going to execute your boyfriend, okay? And you are gonna have to go into retirement. And by retirement, I mean, like, here's Castle Rising in Norfolk.

[Kate Lister]

So Freudian.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

I know, right? It's like we're really. But we're set up for a situation. Let's just say the monarchs of England have been playing it a little fast and loose with the concept of monogamy and marriage. Right. Like, as far as they're concerned.

[Kate Lister]

So I've been doing, like, some research into royal mistresses of lakes. I've been doing, like, a talk about them and, like, trying to find examples of kings who were pretty sure did stay faithful. There's, like, maybe three. Three. And one of them was King George, who went insane.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

That'll help. Right? Like, ladies, if you want to keep your man, just drive him mildly insane.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, just being gravely mentally ill helps. Weirdly, William the Conqueror was another one. Well, at least he didn't have any acknowledged illegitimate children.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Yeah, an actual love match there, which is. Which is quite interesting. So, I mean, but that's the thing. Whenever you get a love match, everyone is like, oh, my God, they liked each other. That's crazy, right? Because, like, it never happens. It never happens to these people, right? So one way or another, we've got this situation in England where everyone understands that, listen, affairs are going to happen. You don't get married because you're in love with people. You get married to make political alliances, right? And now one of the traditional ways that you would do that, very specifically, is you're always trying to marry in with France. But look, things are a little hot in that area, so we're not doing it. And Anyway, enter Alice, right?

[Kate Lister]

Who's Edward married to, first of all,

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Queen Philippa, which is a great name. So, okay. Yeah, yeah. And by all accounts, she is actually a pretty good queen. People really tend to like her. And they are one of these couples, Edward and Philippa, where they got married really early, kind of 12 and 13, and, like, really early, really young. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And I do hasten to point out, at this point, this point, when you get married, when you're, like, 12 and 13, these kids aren't having sex or anything. They usually marry you in a church, then they keep a real close eye on you, and then you usually start shagging when you're around 16 or so. There are exceptions to this. For example, Eleanor Castile quite famously got knocked up at 14. And then they, like, separate them. They were like, you're not supposed to be shagging. Like, she could die. You understand that? She could die. Right. So you marry him off. And, you know, they get on well enough. They get on well enough. But, like, also, listen, again, we're in a court culture that is promoting lovers. We could say that it's a court that loves to love.

[Kate Lister]

Courtly love's a big thing, innit? About this time, it sort of rolls in from France and everyone goes, ooh, troubadours. They're smashing.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Oh, absolutely. And, like, you know, fundamentally, Eleanor of Aquitaine is the one that paid for a lot of that. So there is this direct link.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Like, she. She's the one who was like, hey, troubadours. You like that. She's, like, coming off her stack in order to pay for them. So, like, it's. You know, she's saying that people should actually have a bit of fun, right? Like, if you have to get married because it's your job, you should be allowed to do things for fun, Right? And fair play. Fair play, right? So here's Philippa and Edward. They're doing a good enough job, but Edward, he has been playing away from home the entire time. We know that he has other mistresses in these years, but he always kind of like, comes back to Phil, because, of course, he's like, you don't. You don't leave your wife because you have a mistress.

[Kate Lister]

That's not the deal. That's not the deal is you have your mistresses that you enjoy, but you very much stay focused on the wife. She's numero uno. And that is the lesson that all royal mistresses need to learn if they want to be good at it and succeed, is that you have to respect the queen 100%.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Because a lot of the time, they're very happy to let you take this man off their hands. They're like, I've got other things to do. I'm raising a million children. And also, again, I do not love him. This is my job. Right.

[Kate Lister]

That's. If you want to have sex with him, then that's fine. I can sit over here in my castle wearing a crown and not have sex with him and be perfectly happy. Thank you.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Exactly. And they can go ahead and they can take lovers themselves. You know, like, these things happen all the time. And the big draw from which all of these kind of lovers are pulled in general on the part of men, if you are looking around for a girlfriend, you look to the retinue of your wife, right? There are going to be.

[Kate Lister]

It's a bit weird, I have to say.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Listen, who else are they gonna be?

[Kate Lister]

They're not going down public.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Like, they can't be like, who's at the inn this evening? That's not. That's not how it works, Right?

[Kate Lister]

Like, can you not, like, send out, like. Like, oh, like, I don't know what. The medieval equivalent of a date. Dating via tapestry. Tapestry dating apps, where, like, you're swiping left and right or something.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

It is sending out because you're like. I don't know, like, the hot girls in your area are just gonna be, you know, the damicella, you know, that work for your wife. Because all they do is hang out in castles all day. You know, they don't have an opportunity to meet people.

[Kate Lister]

People.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

And one way or another, Alice gets into the retinue of Queen Philippa, and she is a. She's what we call Domicella. We call him a damsel now, right? And dummy Sella. These are the girls that are always hanging out with the queen, Right?

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

This is a job. And you kind of do favors for the queen. You entertain the queen. But also, it's this really interesting rule because it is essentially kind of like a form of conspicuous consumption, right? Like, the more damsels you have in your retinue, the more obviously wealthy you are. And damsels will do all kinds of weird things, like at varying queens, coronations, sometimes you'll have, like, two of them standing behind the queen and then two sitting underneath the table next to her.

[Kate Lister]

That's a weird gig.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

And you're like, I got so many hotties in my retinue, some of them just sit under the table. That's.

[Kate Lister]

I keep spares under the table.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Yeah. Just like I got. I got every hot girl in, you know, a 50 mile radius is here right now. And they work for me, right? So it's. It's how you kind of show your power is by having all these beautiful women who are well attired around you.

[Kate Lister]

Is it like being a professional friend? Is that the gig of like, it's like ladies in waiting, damsels. Yeah. Okay.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Yeah, yeah. Because it's like, again, and if Edward can't go down pub, Philippa can't go down pub, right? Like, she's. There's. There's no one for her to hang out with otherwise. And this is how you make friends. And then if you've got things like you need stuff done. Listen, if Philippa was having an affair, she's going to need someone to pass notes for her. This is who gets that done. If you have kind of state affairs that you need dealt with that you don't want your husband involved in, you send your damsels out. Things of this nature. So they're, they're incredibly important women. But yeah, a lot, A lot of their job is just to kind of like be pretty and hang out. That is true.

[Kate Lister]

Well, hang on a second here. Because, like, see, I. I could do that. I could sit under a table next to a queen. But like, hang on, Alice is. She's widowed. She was the wife of a jeweler, which is a good gig if you can marry a Jew. It's good, but it's good for like your middle classes. That's like a solid gig. Like, we're talking about being besties with the queen here. Like, this is. How did she pull that off?

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Well, I think that basically we have to understand that she is quite hot and, and she's got money, right? So she's, she's clear.

[Kate Lister]

Have you seen my face?

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

And fundamentally. So if you can come to the attention of the court, and you might come to the attention of the court, if you're from a wealthy background, lending money. That's a really big one. That's a really big one. The court is funny because they're like, hello, I'm the king, I have lots of money. And it's like, oh, do you? Because you also owe a lot of money to varying people. So like a big way that they come into contact with ordinary people is through money lending. And if you get a certain amount of money, you can make the hop into the nobility. If you can just kind of get around the court, it is possible, right? We know, we know that it's possible. And indeed, Maybe she is, you know, the daughter of the lesser nobility. And so once her husband has kicked it, she can kind of, like, work some connections. And we kind of don't know exactly how she gets in to Philippa's retinue. Right. And. Because there are some schools of thought that say, well, she got into the retinue, and then the affair begins. But then there are other schools of thought that say he saw her one day, said, awooga, and then, like, put her into the retinue.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, that happens. Lots of, like, that happened. That's how Anne Boleyn ended up in Catherine of Aragon's little flock. That happens loads, doesn't it? That was a move of Charles II as well, was find someone you fancy and then make them hang out with his wife.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Exactly. And so, listen, let's be so for real. He's, like, 55, and she's about 18.

[Kate Lister]

See, we wouldn't put up with that today, would we? We would be me tooing the king, quite frankly.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

As we say in Shakatoye, problematic. Okay. Like, it is. It's. We got an age gap. All right? Like that.

[Kate Lister]

That is an age. Yes.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

I'm sure she was very mature for her age.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

She's about to be. Okay. And listen, also, fundamentally, we are seeing her come on the scene around the end of Philippa's life. She is incredibly ill. She's incredibly ill. We don't know exactly what's going on with her. Might have been dropsy. Many such cases. Might have been. She's got a bad case of the gout, which, again, many such cases. And it's really. Yeah, it's really immobilizing if you've got it badly. Some people say that she's broken her collarbone. Look, it's. It's bad, Right? And so she.

[Kate Lister]

It could be anything, couldn't it?

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

And, like, leave this woman alone. Frankly, do not. Do not be pointing your privy parts at this woman. She needs rest and to, like, you know, get ready to meet the Lord, which is. Which is what queens are kind of trained to do. Right. So it's in this particular case that we see Alice enter the record. How'd she get there? We don't know.

[Kate Lister]

Right?

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

We don't know. There are many, many roads. Yeah. I mean, being hot one way or another, right?

[Kate Lister]

She was hot. She was hot. Yeah.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

But then we rip to Philippa, 1369. Nice. We lose her. And after her death, Edward is like, well, my wife's dead, so I don't really feel a reason to act like I'm not shagging this incredibly hot young lady because why would I not flaunt this, right? And you know, fair play. And he begins to just shoot. Shower my girl with presents. Now, again, this is something his family does, okay? Arguably, the reason that his dad gets kicked off the throne is not because of all the boyfriends, like, Isabella was. Marries him while he has a boyfriend. Everybody liked that boyfriend. That boyfriend dies. He gets a new boyfriend and starts showering said boyfriend with gifts. And it's like, you can't take. Yeah. Like, you can't just, like, take lands off of the other nobles to give to your boyfriend. And that's when everyone gets really bent out of shape, right? Same thing with Isabella. Isabella gets rid of Edward ii. And everyone is like, okay, great. Because I didn't like how all my lands were getting stolen. And she's like, I am good. I'm gonna lightly steal some of your lands and give them to my boyfriend, Roger Mortimer. And then everyone's like, come on. Like, what is going on? And then, then we got Edward iii. And he's like, have you met my girlfriend?

[Kate Lister]

She's a cheese expensive is Alice Perez. She's high maintenance in a way that I couldn't even begin to fathom. This woman.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Listen. I mean, again, one of the best to ever do it. The stuff of every working class girl's dreams. Let me tell you this. 56. That's five. Six manors. She's got, like, castles. She's got townhouses. She's got them in over 25 counties.

[Kate Lister]

Well played, Alice.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

15 of these are kind of like direct presents from the king. And so I'm like, Where'd the other 10 come from? She's like, I don't bought it. Got bored

[Kate Lister]

some. More houses than anyone could ever possibly live in. You could live in a different house each each week for a year.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

How many counties do you really need to live in if you're Alice?

[Kate Lister]

There's no upper limit.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Like, I mean, I guess this is the thing. It's just like, how on tour are we exactly? I'm tired just thinking about it. Like, come on, I can barely get down gym.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Eleanor and Alice after this short break.

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[Eleanor Jarnegger]

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[Kate Lister]

Well, that's cool.

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[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Pick up.

[Kate Lister]

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[Kate Lister]

So real estate is rolling in. What else does Alice like?

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Well, by all accounts, jewels. This is one of her big things. And like she's so real for this. Okay, she is given some of Philippa's jewels. And it that may have been some that were left by Philippa to the other damsels.

[Kate Lister]

Alice Scallywerk. You just imagine just turning up at the court. All these people grieving for Philippa.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

This bitch shows up just in her jewelry.

[Kate Lister]

It's like, well, I'm off to one of my many townhouses.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Like, listen, oh, there's my tiara. Right. Like, I don't know, I mean, like, quite the scandal, right? Because especially if you're up jumped, like, it wouldn't be the first time we. We've had like an up jump mistress. They're. They're ten a penny. But being able to amass this kind of fortune is quite something.

[Kate Lister]

I mean, she really does amass a fortune.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Oh, yeah, she's got up about like £20,000. And that's like in our money. That's millions. That's like millions and millions of pounds.

[Kate Lister]

Is it right, that, like, people would come to her to ask for funding to go on crusades so she has enough money to fund wars.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Yeah. So it's like the Northern Crusade is happening right now. And this is kind of like the push to Christianize the people in the Baltics. So they're trying to make Estonia Christian, for example. And so that's the Teutonic Knights. They need a lot of money because they have to set up castles. And she's like, yeah, absolutely. Because, like, my girl's the wealthiest woman in England at this point in time. She is kind of like giving to religious causes. But this is also, I think, really interesting because here's these guys being like, oh, wow, we're such Christians. We've really got to Christianize the Estonians. Oh, babe, like, please give us money. And it's like the mistress, the unmarried mistress of the king. And you're just like, yeah, sure, any port in a storm, right?

[Kate Lister]

Wow. Well, Alice sounds delightful. I can't imagine anybody objecting to this.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Well, I mean, listen, my girl has got her feet under the table so firmly. She's got three kids with Edward.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, does she? Okay, well played. Well played.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

So. So it's like, what? Like, what are you going to do? Like, they're. And they would hardly be the first Fitzes around the shop, right? We've got a ton of those. Right. So one of her big, like, triumphs, big public triumphs, comes to us in 1372. And there's a big tournament in Smithfield here in London, which is where we have our tournaments. And we have Alice presented as the lady of the Sun. Bring back tournaments. Bring back tournaments. Well, I haven't. I've not seen anyone presented as the lady of the sun recently. I want to see a headdress. I want to see the girlies out here. And Alice gets, you know, brought out big gold headdress. You know, the works. And this is kind of like a weird gray area, right? Because like ordinarily, obviously, while you are having a big tournament, we should have the queen, right?

[Kate Lister]

It's a queen gig.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

And if you don't have a queen, then what you want is the wife of the heir to the throne.

[Kate Lister]

Oh.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Because it like, listen, we all. You've got a hot girlfriend, we can all see that. Is she an actual functionary at the court? Like these are people with jobs, right? Like, like this is what they do. And we do have like a daughter in law that could have taken the. We've got Joan of Kent, right? So it's like probably Joan of Kent should have been up there. Or like it is not as though Edward does not have several daughters who

[Kate Lister]

probably must have been seething.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

And you know what, they've got to be probably like older than Alice. Like, let's be so for real, the

[Kate Lister]

balls of this woman.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

And like she kind of understands that people don't really like her. And so she was like, okay, look, I've got, I got a lot of money, I've got these kids, but also my boyfriend is very much older than me and everyone does seem to hate me for things like, you know, insisting on being the lady of the sun at the tournament. What I am going to do is I'm going to get myself a backup plan. I love her so much. So she goes and she gets herself a secretly married to. It's 1375, she marries sir William de Windsor and he's kind of like the deputy of Ireland at this point. Because she's looking over at Edward, Edward, he's on his way out. Like it's going downhill.

[Kate Lister]

I see, I see the thinking. But like she's got so much money as well. Like you don't need a man, Alice. Why that move? She could just go, I've got 56 manor houses and you know, more money than anyone else.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Well, I mean, listen, again, this family, they giveth and they taketh away, baby. So it's like, yeah, well you've got your paramour on the throne, that's absolutely fine. But when the kids come in, they could just be like, yeah, ha ha, that's good.

[Kate Lister]

See that, that tells me that she knew that his family absolutely loathed her. And the second they came into power, she would be out with a very harsh kick.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Yeah. Because if you, if you feel completely stable in where you are, if you think, oh well, this is absolutely fine, everybody loves me. I've had like three kids with the King, you're not going to need to be making plays like this because everything would be fine. But she's been pushing the boat out. There should be no reason why you have any official business going on at tournaments. You should be sitting in the back looking pretty and smiling. Right? That's. That's the thing. And fundamentally, she ends up marrying Sir William because she needs the support at court because everybody hates her. Right. And Windsor does too. Right. Like, he is in kind of a shaky position financially, so he needs money, which Alice has. Right. And she needs someone at court who's actually going to be like, yeah, she's with me. You can't kick her out right now. Like, you can't. I see. The King is dead. You can't go take her manor houses. I'm a guy with an army.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, okay, I'm with you, I'm with you. But I kind of. Is there any record of what the King said when his. His most favorite mistress that he showered money, all of his money upon, just fucks off, marries someone else?

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Well, no, because she's keeping it a secret.

[Kate Lister]

She's not.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Listen, she's not selling Edward. Like, why. Why would it be any of his business who she's marrying?

[Kate Lister]

I have a life outside of you.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Honestly, like, what's a. What's a girl to do, right? So.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, yeah, but the other thing is what it's like, so she's married this guy, but we do need to. And you touched on it there. Like, Edward is getting poorly. And when you say, like, poorly, it's not just physically poorly. Like, his mental state seems to be deteriorating as well. And I don't know if this is just Alice slander, but there are things in the records that she would pull stunts of, like, demanding that he buys her a load of jewels. And then when he does, and when they arrive, she'd go up to him again and go, where are all the jewels? They did. They never showed up. So she's sort of manipulating. It's not funny. Stuff it like that. She's.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

I actually think it's very funny to rip off kings. But, you know, like, so bad.

[Kate Lister]

It's so bad, Alice.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

It's just. It's elder abuse is what this is. Listen, it is elder abuse, but on the other hand, are royals people.

[Kate Lister]

I don't know. Silly twat. So I don't. I don't know if that's true, but I know that there are records of her doing that, that he's getting progressively more and more sick and she's just off and married some other guy and isn't telling him and is now fleecing him for everything that she possibly can because she knows he's about to shuffle loose this mortal coil.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

And, like, listen, people, it's not just, you know, the. The profligacy. It's not just, like, the obvious scheming. Fundamentally, one of the things that's going to happen when you are a royal mistress is you are going to be compared to the queen, whose place you've theoretically taken, right? And so the smart ones stay under the radar. They stay out of the way. Like, they take the money and everything, but they just. Yeah, right. And Philippa was really popular. You know, she's seen as kind of the consummate queen. You know, she had been a really, really good regent. She had been very good at managing the royal finances. And again, this is, like, very, very crucial at this point in time because of how bad this family is with finances, right? So one of the big things that the English people want to see is that you're not dicking them around financially right now. Like, that you're not. That you're not just spending money on castles and jewels and going hunting, right? And Philippa really understood that. You know, she plays a blinder during the beginning of the Hundred Years War, right? She's. She's really steady. She is in communication with all the varying houses of Europe. And also, my woman had a uterus like a clown car. Okay? 12 children.

[Kate Lister]

She's died of exhaustion.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

I mean, like, I'd die just to get out of it. Like, no, thank you. Like, it's 12. 12, okay.

[Kate Lister]

Holy moly.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Yeah. Yeah. And then, like, so everyone really sees what Philippa had managed to do. They're really aware of how she is this consummate queen, and she's really sacrificed herself for this relationship, for the realm. She's doing the right thing. Thing. And then there's Alice. And then there's Alice, and there's Alice who's like, hi, babes. I'm the lady of the Sun.

[Kate Lister]

You know, just turning up.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

We're just like, all, you know, like,

[Kate Lister]

a diamond necklace that says Philippa, Philippa1 on it.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Just, you know, like, I don't know. This girl had a strawberry ice vape in the 14th century. Somehow, we don't know how she got it right.

[Kate Lister]

It's just like, she's a menace.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Mm.

[Kate Lister]

All that work that Philippa put into being, you know, steadying the ship and getting people back on side and winning over the. The reputation that the royal family just Waste money. Enter Alice.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

And she's like, oh, you think. You thought that was wasted money? Let me show you how to waste money. Right?

[Kate Lister]

Let me show you.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

And here she is just, like, sitting on the lap of Edward, who doesn't know where he is, Right. She's also really using this position to, like, make moves, right? So it's like, okay, so he gives her 15 of her estates. Well, how's she get the other 10? Well, she's doing some light interference with the courts. Yeah, right. Like, she's 100% pulling strings behind the scenes so that anytime a court case is up against her or any of her friends, because, like, let's also be real, she seems like a really good time.

[Kate Lister]

She does seem like she's fun.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Some people really hate her. And some people are like, love all this. Like, I heard. I heard that we were getting manners and also drunk and like, you know, some people do. Do flock to that. Right? So she is making sure that, like, the money gets shared around. Like, she understands that she's going to have to make at least some connections, some friends. And, you know, at this point in time, it's generally assumed that, like, if you try to bring a court case against her. And to be clear, in the medieval period, court cases are just about property, Right. Like, you know, in theory, if someone murders someone, you end up going to court about it. Not that often, to be honest. Courts exist in order to prosecute land cases. And so if you're like, that was my land and she's taken over it, no court is going to define in

[Kate Lister]

your favor because she's untouchable, really.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

And this kind of, like, all comes to a head in 1374, and she ends up in a property dispute with the abbot of the Priory of St. Albans.

[Kate Lister]

What are you doing?

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

She's like, these monks and. And like, I think.

[Kate Lister]

I think they've had far too much land. I think, quite frankly, they should be giving some of it to me.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

And this is like one of these really, really storied monasteries as well. It's attached to the cathedral in St. Albans. This is like, you know, St. Alban is one of, like, our very first British saints. This is like one of these places that has been a center for religion in England since, like, year dot, since Veri Lamia, Right. When it was owned by the Romans.

[Kate Lister]

And she's trying to move in.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Yeah. And she's like, no, I think you'll find that's actually my land. Right. And it's like, baby, this is not. This is not Henry viii. Right? Like, you can't just take. You just can't take land from monks. But, you know, the abbot of St. Albans is like, well, I'm a really powerful monk. Let me just take this to court. She goes to court and sits there like this, presumably vaping the entire time. And she's just like, staring down the judges, like. And she wins, right? It's ridiculous. What the.

[Kate Lister]

She's just gonna move his little side pieces piece of ass into a monastery because she doesn't have enough places to live already. It's outrageous.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Listen, she doesn't have anything in Middlesex, babes. So, you know, like, I don't. I don't know.

[Kate Lister]

Right?

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

I know. Well, God bless her. But, like, listen, I don't know if this comes as any surprise, but, like, eventually this is all gonna come crashing to an end.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Eleanor and Alice after this short break.

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[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Hey, everyone. Check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date? Oh, no.

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[Kate Lister]

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[Kate Lister]

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[Eleanor Jarnegger]

I sold my car in Carvana last night.

[Kate Lister]

Well, that's cool.

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[Kate Lister]

You need to relax.

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I need a knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this table wood?

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[Kate Lister]

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[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Pick up.

[Kate Lister]

These may apply, But it does lead to one of the most amazing laws ever passed in the history of Parliament. That just absolutely creases me every single time I read it. So please do tell how Alice eventually gets taken down.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Okay, yeah. So we do have this situation where our next king to come onto the throne is one of our worst. Richard ii. And I'm just like. We're just saying something at this point in time, but he's like A kid, right? So we need, you know, groups of people around him at the time to kind of like make sure that we keep the ship on a steady keel. Sometimes his uncles are too involved. You know, we've got Alice running amok and then we have the establishment of what we call the good parliament, who comes in to be like, everybody needs to calm down and we're going to get things back in line, right? So they're like, we are going to be bringing some light charges of corruption against a few royals and Alice is one. So as a part of this, because Alice is so good at intimidating courts, they pass this law that says women are not allowed in law courts. You may not practice law, you may not like come in here. And so this is like one of the bad things that happens as a result of her. Because previous to this, of course, like, of course women could practice law. Like, like, of course there were like women lawyers. Like, of course that like, women are, are prosecuting things all the time. It just takes one bad bitch. Like this whole situation.

[Kate Lister]

Can I read it out loud that what was actually passed?

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Yes.

[Kate Lister]

It's so incredible, right? So this is what was passed because a complaint was made to the king that some women have pursued various business and disputes in the king's courts by way of maintenance, bribing and influencing the parties. Which thing displeases the king. The king forbids any woman to do it. And especially Alice Perris.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

It's so good. Oh, look, it's so funny.

[Kate Lister]

On penalty of whatever the said Perez can forfeit and being banished from the realm. They. The fact they put her name in it, right? No one can do this Alice. And she just stood there just like, what?

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Like it's like 100% like the no Alice club, right? Like, no Alice. No, no, no, Alice's. Absolutely not. And you know, they bring in this law and they're like, I swear to God, girl, if you come in here, we're going to take everything and you're going to get banished. She does get banished. She is, she is vanished, right? So like by June of 1376, she is told to like, get out of here and that you're not allowed to see the king anymore. And this is something that tends to happen when it. When you are a kind of annoying royal mistress and a king starts to get ill a lot, A lot of times that we're like, yeah, girl, you gotta go, right? Like, and that happens a lot. And like sometimes it's really sad. Like we have instances, for example, like where one of The Louis in France, like, had a real love affair with one of his mistresses who was kind of nice. And he's, like, on his deathbed, being like, may I see her? And the Queen is like, nope.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, that was Madame du Barry that happened there. I think that she was just. He was down a small pox or something, and she was just booted out. And he was really sad about it.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Yeah, exactly. And it's like, so we have this happen, like, over and over again. So they're like, sorry, but you're not coming anywhere near this man, especially while he's dying. Right? But then in October, she's allowed back. This is a. This is kind of let in like this. We have a bit of a flux situation. The Black Prince has just died down in France. We have John of Gaunt return to England, and he's like, look, a lot of things are being said in haste, right? Like, you know, and I think maybe, you know, people. People can come back. Let's see. Let's see which way the wind is blowing. A lot of people are dying.

[Kate Lister]

Maybe she'll behave herself this time.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

No. So officially, then, the banishment is back, right? And we suddenly are finding out that Alice is married to Windsor.

[Kate Lister]

Always had forgotten that bitch. She's married someone else.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

So this is. It's all to play for right now. Like, everyone is kind of like, oh, did this bitch get married? And she's like, I don't know. Could it be, like, how would you know? Because I'm banished, right? So it's 1377, and Edward dies, okay, on the 21st of June, a day that lives in all of our hearts, because we all just love the third so much, obviously. And the rumor is that, like, she went in there on his deathbed and was like, oh, honey, I love you so much. And then, like, is just, like, ripping the rings off his fingers.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Whether or not this is true, I don't believe that.

[Kate Lister]

But it does show you how people thought of her, though, that. That would be a rumor that could circulate at the time that people go, yo, that tracks.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

That tracks exactly. Exactly. Like, it's one of these things where, like, the fact that the rumor even exists tells us a lot. Like, whether or not this is true, we're not sure. But the stories, like, you know, people are not gonna be able to tell that story about me because people will be like, Eleanor. Right? Like, that would be. It wouldn't track. Right. But fundamentally, you can do it about Alice. Right? And so she then gets banished again, you know, which is. Which is fine and normal. She. She kind of thought this was going to come, right? And then she gets put on trial for attempting to pervert the course of justice, which, to be fair. Yeah, like, she's guilty, Right.

[Kate Lister]

She kind of had it coming. Yeah, she kind of had that coming. She did.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Yeah, she did. And then you had a good run,

[Kate Lister]

Alice, but, yeah, you had that.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

But fundamentally, you live by the sword, you die by the sword. Right. Like, you can kind of get away with this stuff for a while, but you have to make sure that you cultivate enough of a support group within the court that isn't gonna come back to bite you.

[Kate Lister]

That was her failing. That's where she fell down too close

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

to the Sun Girl. Right. And so as a result of this court case, her lands are confiscated. Right. And so that is gonna make it even more difficult for her to come back. Right. Because banishments have a really hard time of sticking if they is some kind of land, which in theory you ought to be managing. Right. You don't just own these lands. It is kind of like, in theory, something that you need to be doing, right? Yes. But then somehow Alice Paris returns, right. Like in 1378, Windsor is like, hey, everyone, by the way, we were married two years ago before the king died, and as a result, really fun piece of legislature here. You shouldn't have prosecuted her as an independent woman. Right. Like, this should have been something that you did to me. Because as a result of coverture, when a woman gets married, it should be the husband that's taken to court, not the wife, because you cease to be a person legally.

[Kate Lister]

Small print. Small print. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Did that work?

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Well, I mean, they are like, okay, I guess you're banished. Like, what? I don't know what, you're banished too, right? And then, like, basically we get to. In May 1379, the royal treasurer, Thomas Brantingham, comes up and he's like, hey, look, here are, like, these pearls that I've, like, confiscated from Alice. Someone counted them. Would you like to know how many pearls.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, God, I don't have any pearls. So I'm going to be impressed with how many pearls had Alice got?

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

21,868. Enough girl. Enough. Like, she has. I. I own some pearls. Right.

[Kate Lister]

Man, that's all lapels.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Yeah. And so they're like, yeah, okay, like, I guess we're giving these back to the outrageous. But actually, Windsor's played a blinder because in 1380, everyone says, well, yeah, I guess, actually kind of these lands Belong to him. Like, legally. Legally, right. Because you can get Alice on intimidating the court, but you can't get Windsor because he wasn't in there vaping and staring everyone in the eyes.

[Kate Lister]

And technically they were his lands. Because, you know, women.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Because women aren't people. Right?

[Kate Lister]

People. That's right.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

That's right. Yeah, yeah. Real ones know.

[Kate Lister]

God, she's a fighter, isn't she? Like, at any point I would. I would have packed my stuff up and gone. Do you know what? You're absolutely right. I've had a very good run at this, but I am now off. I will fuck. I will now fuck off somewhere else and just live in privileged obscurity. This. She keeps coming back for more.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

She does. But then, like, listen to me, it kind of all goes wrong at the end because Windsor dies in 1384. And so Alice, obviously, she's like, great, back to it. Like, I love, love to be a widow. Widow life, you know, etc. But Windsor had left all his lands in a trust to his nephew.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, no, he's a bad. It's like Anna Nicole Smith.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Yeah. Like, I think. I'm like, I actually, I'm like, that is shady because those weren't your lands, were they, honey? Like, she worked for this.

[Kate Lister]

Oh. Oh, the system gotta.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Oh, listen, that man never jacked off a geriatric king a day in his life. Yeah, she worked for working. Yeah. Good Lord. You know, the least she could get is 21 800.

[Kate Lister]

She should have had more monasteries. Oh, no, Alice. Oh, wasted by her own petard.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

But, like, she starts prosecuting these cases again. It's like she goes to the. No, Alice's club and she's like, how about now, G? Like, what about this? And, like, she does get some judgments overturned and she does get some of her lands back, but not, you know, like, you know, never, never all the way. And she makes it to till 1400. She dies in the winter of 1400, so that's a good innings. She gets like 16 years without her husband. How much?

[Kate Lister]

That. That. Well, we don't really know what.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

She's gone, probably. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

60s, okay.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Which is pretty good.

[Kate Lister]

I. I'm impressed with Alice, even if no one else is. And she got some of her lands back, but, I mean, my God, she had a hell of a time.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Like, look, we. And it's one of these things where we don't get to know that much about what happens afterwards because, like, no one wants to talk about this. Right? Like, the chroniclers aren't being like, oh, Edwila, like, even if you don't like Alice, if you're a chronicler, you're not gonna write all of this stuff down because it's kind of embarrassing to the royal family. So the way that history is recorded at this time is basically you pay someone to write nice things about your family and so they're just going to admit all of this stuff. As a result.

[Kate Lister]

This is highly embarrassing that basically the royal treasury got turned over to a teenager while the King was just wandering around in his nightshirt, not really sure

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

what's going on exactly. And so the major way that we know about her is through court cases, because obviously she keeps coming up in those and shout outs are her daughters. Her daughters keep trying to prosecute Windsor's nephew and being like, that's my mommy's lands from all the King Jack.

[Kate Lister]

And all of it went from. Well, yeah. Don't you tell me that's not. Not work. So let's listen. We all know that the greatest royal mistress of all time is Camilla. That is just.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

I mean, like, the best to ever do it. Yeah, yeah.

[Kate Lister]

The best to ever play the game because she got to be queen and precious few of them did, and when they did, it often didn't go well. Anne Boleyn. Right, so Camilla, I mean, there's still time, but as far as we know,

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

people take kind of a good view on that stuff now. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So it's like it goes Camilla, right? Camilla's sort of like number one at the top.

[Kate Lister]

Absolutely at the top. Where's. Where's Alice?

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

You know, she's kind of high. I think we gotta. I gotta say, like, top five. I gotta say top five. I mean, I think it's that she hit some of the highest highs, but her lows are pretty. I mean, she survives, right?

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. A lot of them don't do that.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

A lot of them don't survive. So, like, I think that she's gotta have to be top five, right?

[Kate Lister]

Like, I mean, she's gotta be one of the richest. She's gotta. I mean. Cause like, the king just literally handed over the royal treasury to this woman, including monasteries where saints are buried.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

So she had somewhere to, you know,

[Kate Lister]

for her chihuahua to live or whatever she was doing.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

And like, fundamentally, like, let's be so real. Like, is haydur not another word for fan, right? Like, why is parliament so obsessed with her? Why are you writing laws about me?

[Kate Lister]

She's. She's got to be the only mistress to have to be named in law as just like Especially Alice Perez.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

It's like I. I have nothing but respect for a woman who was annoying enough that, like, the courts start getting involved, right? Like, one of the. One of the best ever played the game. So, yeah, top five. I'm calling her top five.

[Kate Lister]

Top five.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Top five.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, I think. I think she. She's got to be. She's got to be one of the richest. So, yeah, she's up there. Oh, Eleanor, you. You are. You are my top one, quite frankly. And thank you so much for coming. Thank you. No, I don't think we. We treated this, the subject quite with the reverence that it just.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

I don't know. Look, it's what she would have wanted, right?

[Kate Lister]

Like, it's what she would have wanted.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Listen, if. If 626 years after my death, to grade A baddies were talking about me, I'd be. I'd be delighted, frankly. That's the legacy that I'm looking for. So.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, but if people. If people do want to talk about you, if they want to know more about you, where can they find you? Eleanor?

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Oh, come on over to Gone Medieval. You know, I don't get to say the words, jacking off as much much there as I would like to, but that's. That's why they let me out to come talk to Kate. They're like, let her get it out of her system. Are you fine? Thank you.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you so much. You've been marvelous.

[Eleanor Jarnegger]

You're the best. Thanks, Kate.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to Eleanor for joining us. How much fun is she? We love Eleanor. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to, like, review and follow along whatever it is you get. Your podcasts coming up, we are going to find out just how filthy Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo and Machiavelli would have been in the Renaissance period. And if you'd like us to explore a subject or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email [e-mail] this podcast was edited by Hannah Theodorov and produced by Sophie G. The senior producer was Freddie Chick. Join me again Betwixt the sheets. The history of Sex scandal in society. A podcast by history hit. This podcast contains media music from Epidemic Sound.

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[Eleanor Jarnegger]

Hey, everyone. Check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date? Oh, no.

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[Kate Lister]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

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[Kate Lister]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.

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