Inside the Brothel of Pompeii

Summary

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Episode Summary: Inside the Brothel of Pompeii
Release Date: January 10, 2025
Host: Kate Lister
Guest: Sarah Levine Richardson, Author of The Brothel of Pompeii: Sex, Class, and Gender at the Margins of Roman Society

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Introduction to Pompeii and Its Brothel

In this engaging episode of Betwixt The Sheets, host Kate Lister delves into the fascinating world of ancient Pompeii, focusing specifically on the city's only known purpose-built brothel, the Lupinar (00:26 - 08:29). Pompeii, a small Roman town of approximately 25,000 inhabitants, offers a unique glimpse into everyday life, thanks to the preservation wrought by the catastrophic eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD.

Kate Lister sets the stage by expressing her excitement:
"We are off on an exciting adventure and I can't wait to stop by and find out what exactly goes on in this place." (01:34)

Pompeii: A Snapshot of Daily Life

Sarah Levine Richardson provides a comprehensive overview of Pompeii, emphasizing its importance as a well-preserved archaeological site. She explains how the volcanic ash encapsulated the city, preserving not just grand structures but also mundane details like taverns, bakeries, and, notably, the brothel (13:53).

Key Points:

• Pompeii’s Size: Compared to Rome’s population of around a million, Pompeii was a modest town, making its preservation invaluable for historical studies.
• Preserved Structures: The ash preserved detailed aspects of daily life, allowing historians to explore various facets of Roman society, including sex work.

The Unique Brothel: Lupinar

The brothel of Pompeii, Lupinar, is highlighted as a singular example of a purpose-built establishment dedicated solely to the sale of sex (08:29 - 10:08). Unlike other locations where prostitution might occur sporadically, the Lupinar was meticulously designed for this purpose, underscoring its uniqueness in the Roman world.

Sarah Levine Richardson remarks:
"But building a structure just so that you can sell sex, it's the only example agreed upon from the Roman world." (08:29)

Defining a Brothel in Ancient Rome

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around what constitutes a brothel in the context of ancient Rome. Sarah elucidates the criteria used by scholars, such as erotic frescoes, graffiti, and built-in cement beds (08:39 - 10:08). She distinguishes between:

• General Prostitution Venues: Locations like taverns and inns where sex is one of many services offered.
• Purpose-Built Brothels: Establishments where the primary and sole service is the sale of sex.

Quote:
"If you use that definition, you're getting a really high number for a population that we think is about 25,000 people." (09:09)

Economic Viability and Failure of the Brothel

Kate and Sarah discuss the economic challenges that likely led to the Lupinar’s failure as a sustainable business model. Despite the innovative approach to creating an experiential space for clients, the brothel couldn’t charge more than street prostitutes, making it financially unfeasible (10:08 - 13:02).

Sarah Levine Richardson:
"It's a failed economic experiment. Like, it didn't make sense. There's prostitution practiced everywhere in the city, and the idea of building a structure... it's like just not bringing in enough money." (07:20 - 08:10)

Graffiti Insights: Voices from the Walls

One of the most captivating aspects of the brothel is the graffiti left by patrons and possibly the sex workers themselves. Sarah introduces us to Mola, a notable female sex worker whose name means "grindstone," symbolizing her relentless nature (28:29 - 30:44).

Notable Graffiti Quotes:

• "Felicis has fucked here." (38:30)
• "Felix, you fuck well." (38:03)
• "Mr. Garlic Farter had a great fuck here." (39:13)

These inscriptions provide rare firsthand accounts of interactions within the brothel, shedding light on the experiences and social dynamics of both workers and clients.

Agency and Enslavement of Sex Workers

A critical discussion point is the concept of agency among the enslaved sex workers. Despite their lack of freedom, Sarah argues that expressions like Mola's graffiti indicate attempts to assert personal identity and pride in their work (31:07 - 33:24).

Sarah Levine Richardson:
"I do think that it's important to pay attention to the ways in which they're trying to work this situation for their benefit." (33:24)

She raises poignant questions about their daily lives, emotional labor, and the potential for building relationships within the constraints of their enslavement.

Gender and Sexuality in the Brothel

The brothel was not exclusively for male clients; there is evidence suggesting the presence of male sex workers and possibly female clients (40:25 - 43:15). However, Sarah remains cautious about overextending conclusions due to the limited nature of the evidence.

Kate Lister:
"But what is true is the brothel is the most popular tourist destination in Pompeii. Why do you think that is?" (20:50)

This segment explores the binary gender norms of Roman society and the stigma surrounding female sexuality, making it unlikely for women to frequent brothels despite potential evidence.

Operation and Management of the Brothel

While much remains unknown about the brothel’s operation, Sarah speculates based on Roman norms that it was likely managed by a madam or a pimp (44:00 - 45:12). The two-story structure suggests that the upstairs might have been reserved for management, ensuring control and oversight of the establishment below.

Sarah Levine Richardson:
"I think whoever's managing the structure is living upstairs because they can then keep an eye on what's going on." (44:25)

Daily Lives and Further Questions

In the concluding part of the episode, Kate and Sarah reflect on the broader implications and remaining mysteries surrounding the brothel. They ponder the lives of the sex workers outside their professional roles and the limited understanding of their personal experiences (46:32 - 49:46).

Sarah Levine Richardson:
"I want to know about their lives actually, outside of sex." (48:43)

She expresses a desire to uncover more about their routines, relationships, and personal identities beyond their roles within the brothel.

Conclusion and Reflections

The episode wraps up with Kate acknowledging the complexity and richness of the brothel's history, while Sarah emphasizes the importance of continuing to explore and question the evidence left behind by those who lived it (50:07 - 50:18).

Kate Lister:
"It's so tantalizing, isn't it? You've just got this space, but there's so many questions within it." (46:37)

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Further Resources

For listeners interested in delving deeper into Sarah Levine Richardson’s research, she can be found through her Academia.edu page and her faculty page at the University of Washington, Department of Classics.

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Produced by: Stuart Beckwith and edited by Tom Delaghi
Senior Producer: Charlotte Long
Music: Epidemic Sound
Listen to more episodes of Betwixt The Sheets at History Hit.

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

Hi, I'm your host, Kate Lister. If you would like Betwixt the Sheets ad free and get early access, sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every single week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.

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[Kate Lister]

Hello, my lovely betwixters, it's me, Kate Lister. You are listening to Betwixt the Sheets. You lucky, lucky thing. I'm the lucky one. I'm really glad that you're here. I'm really glad that we're just all here together. I have so much fun doing this. But before we can continue, before the fun can commence, I have to tell you the really unfun bit. Here we go. This is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adult things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. We have to tell you that. Because if anyone has just wandered in here completely naive to the fact that a podcast called Betwixt the Sheets might be a bit adulty. They have to be given the fair dues warning and now they can't get mad because fair dues we did tell you. Right, on with the show. What a lovely day it is here in Pompeii. Betwixt us. The year is 79 AD. No one's exactly sure which month it is, but there isn't a cloud in the sky. Well, apart from those puffs of ash that are starting to appear over Mount Vesuvius, it's kind of pretty, really. I'm sure that that's nothing to worry about. Anyway, we are strolling through the streets looking for the Lupinar, the Wolf Den. This is the first purpose built brothel of the entire era that we are aware of. There may have been others, they may have just been smashed down and lost to history, but this brothel is special because it's the only one that survives from the Roman world. We are off on an exciting adventure and I can't wait to stop by and find out what exactly goes on in this place. Who's on shift, what's the latest gossip, who were their regulars? How much did everything cost? What kind of lives were going on in here? I promise you, it's fascinating stuff and we really should crack on because that cloud above the mountain is starting to look a bit ominous.

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Oh, money, of course.

[Kate Lister]

You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Goodness.

[Kate Lister]

My beautiful damn goodness has nothing to do with it, dearie. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. Sex work was everywhere in the ancient world and they weren't subtle about it either. But what was rare is a purpose built brothel. Not a room that sex was being sold out of in somebody's basement or above a pub or in a bathhouse. An actual establishment that is only for selling sex in that is rare, unbelievably rare. And in Pompeii, that's exactly what we have. And because it's Pompeii, so much detail has been beautifully preserved underneath the volcanic ash. Details that can take us back vividly into this world and offer answers to questions such as who were the people working here? Where did they come from? And who were their customers? Today I'm joined by Sarah Levine Richardson, author of the Brothel of Pompeii. Sex, Class and Gender at the Margins of Roman Society. And she's gonna help me find out what went on inside these walls. I'm ready if you are. Let's crack on. Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Sarah Levin Richardson. How are you doing?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

I am doing great. I'm so excited to be here.

[Kate Lister]

We are talking about one of my favorite ever subjects, the brothel In Pompeii. I love it so much. And you are the author of. Hang on, let me get the title right. The Brothel of Pompeii. Sex, Class, and Gender at the Margins of Roman Society as an Origin Story. What made you want to write this book?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

I did not set out to write this book. It was kind of something that I stumbled into. So when I was in college and decided to study Greek and Roman antiquity, I went to Europe to see some of the Greek and Roman sites. And of course, you go to Pompeii, and back then it was a little bit less crowded than it is today. And so I was wandering around the site and I literally stumbled into the brothel, and there was no one else there. No.

[Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

And I thought to myself, what is this place? And I thought that was gonna be the end of the story, that it was just a tourist experience. And then I kept on having questions about the building and the people who worked there, and no one was asking those questions. And so in grad school, I worked on it a little bit, and I thought that was gonna be the end of it. And then after grad school, still no one else was asking these questions about the real people who did the work, who patronized these individuals. And so the book was kind of an accident, but I' happy it's there. And so that's the story of the book.

[Kate Lister]

I'm so happy it's there. I've just not long got back from Pompeii. Me and the dashing Dan Snow were doing some filming over there, and we were lucky enough to be shown the brothel really early, before the tourists got there. So, slightly dazed at 7 in the morning, looking at Cox on a wall of just like, okay, okay. But it was such an amazing experience to be there and be in that space. And, you know, I know that I'm a sex historian, so this is my whole bag, but I genuinely think it's one of the most important buildings in the whole of Pompeii, if not the whole of the ancient world. Do you think I'm overselling it?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

You're preaching to the choir. I mean, I am.

[Kate Lister]

So do everyone else. We think it's amazing, right?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Yes. Everyone should make a beeline there. And it's the most important structure. So the thing that I think is really ironic about this structure that of course I love and I wrote a book on it, is it's unique. Pompeians never do a brothel like this again. Romans never do it again. It's what I think is going on is It's a failed economic experiment. Like, it didn't make sense. There's prostitution practiced everywhere in the city. And I think the idea of building a structure where the one thing that they sell is sex and they can't charge higher prices than like the street prostitutes, it's like literally just not bringing enough money. And people are like, you know what? We already have prostitutes wandering the streets and in bars and taverns. Let's not invest the money in a structure that's not going to actually bring us more profit.

[Kate Lister]

We should say that from the outset, it's the only known purpose built brothel ever discovered.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Yes, exactly. And prostitution is everywhere. But building a structure just so that you can sell sex, it's the only example agreed upon from the Roman world.

[Kate Lister]

There are some spaces in Pompeii that people have arguments about and that they go, no, no, it was, it was, it was a brotherhood. How are we defining this? How do you define it?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

That's a great question. So there are two sets of criteria that scholars have used for trying to identify brothels, especially at Pompeii, because it's so well preserved. So one set of definitions is, does it have either erotic frescoes or erotic graffiti, or does it have these kind of built in cement beds? And if you use that criteria, there are 50 to 60 properties at Pompeii that have at least one of those criteria.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

If you use that definition, you're getting a really high number for a population that we think is about 25,000 people. Most of these are like taverns and inns. If you take a stricter definition of a brothel as a place where the primary source of income has to be the sale of sex. Right. So it's not a side hustle for your waitresses, it's the primary thing you're selling. And you have to be able to host more than one sex worker at a time, then you get just our one purpose built brothel. So that's where the debate is. You know, there's lots of places where sex is sold. Is it technically a brothel according to kind of modern definitions? No. But why are we interested in that definition? Like, what are the questions behind that that we're trying to ask? Are we trying to ask about how visible is it? In which case does it matter that there's only one purpose built? I don't think so. So I think we're moving away from strict definitions and into what are the questions that we want to answer by thinking about spaces where sex was sold.

[Kate Lister]

There's very strong arguments to be Made for this is a room where someone scratched a woman's prices into the wall. And it's on the side of a house. So they might have used that room to sell sex. And there's a tavern that may be somewhere out the back.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Yep.

[Kate Lister]

But the Lupinar is the only one purpose built. And I know perhaps I should move beyond the why, what is the definition of it? But for me that opens up a lot of debates around, well, what did what we call sex work look like in this space?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

And I like, I love what you said there. Maybe it failed as a business venture because there was so much sex everywhere. It's like, why would you go to this specialist building? Tell me a bit more about that. But why you think it was a failed business venture?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Well, I think, I mean, they didn't. No one sets out to have a failed business business venture. So I think they had a unique idea that possibly could have worked. Which is one of the things I think is going on in this structure is that the individuals who are performing sex. So we've got probably mostly enslaved sex workers of all genders, male and female. And they're not just providing sex because they're writing graffiti on the wall. With clients. There's like this experience that they can offer that extends beyond just you come and pay for sex and leave. You linger a bit, you think about what you want to write on the wall. You read what your best friend wrote on the wall like a week ago and you want to do something even better than that. We also have at least some of the items that were used by the people who worked out of this space. And some of the items are cups and bottles. So someone's probably drinking alcohol and we don't know who, but realistically it's probably that clients are being offered alcohol. And we have indications in the graffiti themselves of pro praising clients for the client's ability to have sex. You're so good at what you do, you fuck so well. And what I think is going on is that there's this idea that when you go to this purpose built structure, you're getting a whole experience. It's longer, it's got emotional aspects. You're really kind of forging a relationship with someone who's more like a boyfriend or girlfriend or at least that's the conceit, I think. So I think that's what they're aiming to offer. And where it doesn't work is from the few graffiti that have prices and not a lot do, but a few do. They're not actually able to charge more money than the prostitutes who are just on the streets. And so that's why I think it ultimately fails. I think this idea of providing this kind of more emotional connection is a good one, but I think it doesn't actually bring in more money. It may bring in more repeat clients, but there's no way to really. It's not easy to track that.

[Kate Lister]

No. I mean, there's brothel's still very, very much with us to this day. And there's a lot of research around, well, what sex work looks like today and I suppose be an interesting question of why do people still go to brothels to this day when most sex work is online, is what does that offer? That is not offered by just booking somebody through adult work. Like, what is the pull of going to an actual building? Are they still getting this, like holistic. That's a weird word to use, but like a holistic experience within that space.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Yeah, yeah. That's a really great observation. Absolutely.

[Kate Lister]

I don't know. That's fascinating. Do you know, I've jumped way, way, way ahead of myself because there'll be people listening to this going, wait, slow down, Kate. What's Pompeii? I've jumped straight in with. With brothels. Let's talk a bit about what Pompeii is and why it's so important.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

So Pompeii is a small town of about 25,000 individuals. That's our current guesstimate.

[Kate Lister]

Small town.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Small town. So Rome at this time, by the way, is about a million people. So there's a huge difference in terms of population there. Pompeii is 150 miles south of Rome, so that's about 250 kilometers. That may not sound very far antiquity. That would take a few days to get from Rome to Pompeii. It's on the coast, the west coast of Italy. And it's really important for Roman hist. A tragedy, actually, due to the eruption of the local volcano in the year 79. And it caused immense destruction. But the ash from the eruption actually covered over the site. And for the most part, people didn't rebuild. They kind of abandoned the site and it turned into agricultural fields. And what that meant is that when it started to be excavated in the 1700s, we had an entire cityscape preserve for us with every, like, you know, everything you can think of that a city needs. Right. So brothels and other places of prostitution, it's got bars, it's got places to repair your broken statues. It's Got places to do your laundry, baking your bread. So we have this entire cityscape that we can then ask questions about daily life. So that's why it's so important. And of course it's got lots of sexy stuff. So that's why I'm interested in it.

[Kate Lister]

So much sexy stuff. And it's quite eerie when you go because it's not like walking around a ruined castle or something where there's just sort of stumps of buildings. You're on a Roman street and you can see exactly what this would have looked like. I found it like the experience of it is, it's quite dislocating because it is like you've time traveled. It's like, wow, absolutely. How did you find it when you walk around it? Are you completely used to it now or do you still go, this is so weird?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

No, I still find it magical. But I have to say it really depends on. It's now become so full of tourists that that can really affect the experience. Right? If like you're trying to experience the brothel with a hundred strangers at a time and you're pushed in and out. But no, it's absolutely magical. And walking on the sidewalks or the pavements that Pompeians did, and then you know, the stepping stones in the middle of the street so that you can cross from one side to the other without getting your feet wet, it feels like you're really, really close to the people who live there.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Sarah after this short break.

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[Kate Lister]

And as you said, there's a lot of sex in Pompeii, which really shocked the Victorians when they were excavating it. It really disrupted their idea of this kind of noble classical Roman image. There are cocks everywhere in Pompeii.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

There are cocks everywhere. Yes.

[Kate Lister]

There's so many of them. It's ridiculous. When we were filming, we had to have a member of the crew to be on cock watch, which was just to make sure that a penis didn't come into view in the shot somewhere. Cause that we had to put it on later. Later on at night of just. Whoa, whoa, there's a dick. There's a dick. Slow down, everybody. To get rid of it. Why are there so many penises? I know that's not a fair question, but if you had to guess, why are there so many penises in Pompeii?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

So penises are signs of good luck. And it's interesting that it's only male genitalia. It's only penises.

[Kate Lister]

I was scouring for a vulva or a pair of boobs. Not to have had. Nope.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Not to be had. They are not into female genitalia. Nope. But phalluses and penises, they bring good luck. So they carve them in their houses. They carve them on their street corners. They carve them on the streets themselves. They make them into wind chimes. And they have dicks that have dicks that have dicks. And they're all flying and they're part human and they're part animal. It's something that brings luck. So it's something that we have to. I can't believe there's someone whose Job was literally, I have to watch out for dicks.

[Kate Lister]

Just going, whoa, whoa, whoa, there's a penis.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Stop.

[Kate Lister]

I heard tour guides while we were there. I was eavesdropping and they were saying the penises that are carved on the floor point the way to the local brothel.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Urban legend. Sorry to disappoint. So I know exactly what you're talking about. There's this one paving stone for the road, and it's made out of basalt, and so it's really a heavy stone, and there is a beautiful phallus carved into it. And it is just literal coincidence that it happens to point roughly in the same direction as the brothel. But if you were to do a tally of all of the penises all around Pompeii, they are pointing in all sorts of different directions.

[Kate Lister]

It's not true, is it? But what is true is the brothel is the most popular tourist destination in Pompeii. Why do you think that is?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

I think people are fascinated. I mean, we're preaching to the choir here. People are fascinated by sex. Right. I think there's. This structure is unique. You can still see the frescoes, the sexy frescoes. Right. The graffiti actually are really hard to see, and if you're a tourist, you probably don't even know that they're there. But I think this idea of having an experience that's a little bit scandalous, but ultimately, the frescoes in this structure are really vanilla and bland.

[Kate Lister]

I thought that. Yes, I thought that when. Oh, I'm so glad you said that. Sorry, go on.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

They're so vanilla, they're so boring. It's kind of disappointing. But I think that this particular structure allows tourists to have a little bit of a scandalous experience, but actually not think too deeply about sexual activity that may be a little out of their comfort zone. So, for example, in the imagery, all the images show male female couples engaged in genital to genital sex. There's no oral sex, there's no male male sex, there's no female female sex. There's no group sexual. By the way, we know that all of those things are taking place in this brothel because the graffiti tell us so. We also know that Pompeians know how to paint all of those types of sexual couplings because there's another structure closed to the public called the suburban baths. And it's got all those things that I just mentioned. And that is a different type of tourist experience. Right. That is something where you're like, oh, what am I supposed to make of this?

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, you're there with the Family of a nice day out with Pompeii. And there's depictions of blowjobs and ang.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Sex going on and cunnilingus just like right there. And you're like, okay, all right, next, kids.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, we should talk about this one. Another Pompeian myth. Because I heard them still saying this one. The frescoes in the brothel are a menu.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Another urban legend. Yeah, yeah, it's easy to think that. And I think a great thing about this podcast is we think about the stories, right? The stories that we can tell from antiquity, but also the stories we like to tell ourselves today. And I think this way, it's gotta be so hard to be a tour guide, right? Because you have what, like, one minute to sum up this structure that's actually really complicated to a group that has folks coming from, like, all over the world. And the tourist menu idea. So basically, this kind of story from tour guides is you go into the brothel maybe as an ancient client, maybe you're a seafarer, maybe you don't even speak Latin or Greek. Both languages are used there. So you have to look at the pictures on the wall, which I've already mentioned, super vanilla. And then you basically either grunt at one of them to indicate what you want, or you see one over a doorway and you're like, that's the thing I want. I'll go into that room. But we already know that there's a lot of activities, sexual activities that you can buy that are not represented. And there's not a one to one correspondence between the sexual frescoes and the rooms. So some of the sexual frescoes are actually at the back of the hallway where there's a latrine. So you're definitely not gonna go there and be like, I want that. Oh, oh, sorry, I just walked in on someone doing their business.

[Kate Lister]

It's about creating a fantasy. And in brothels today, there's still erotic images on the wall and pornography being played on a television. And it's all about creating an erotic space.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Yeah, yeah. And I think that the frescoes do create an erotic space, but in a different way than is easy to communicate to a tour group in 30 seconds. So one of the things that I think is really interesting about that set of frescoes is that there's only ever depicted the couple on the bed. And the reason I mention this is because in other examples of Roman erotic art, you can fill the surrounding space with enslaved people. And it signifies that the people on the bed are probably the slave owners. They're in this, like, rich house, and they're doing. They're doing, like, the luxury version of sex in the brothel. The frescoes have enough space where they could have included enslaved people along the edges. So there was a choice not to do that. And what I think that means is that the two people on the bed we actually know nothing about. There's no kind of visual indicators of what their status is. It could be two slaves, it could be two former slaves, it could be free people, it could be rich, they could be poor. And I think this is purposely done so that any guy who walks into the structure, whether he himself is a slave or he's like a pompeiiian bigwig, he can look at those frescoes and be like, that could be me in that fresco. So I think it is creating a kind of erotic atmosphere, just in a different way than tour guides can communicate in a quick fashion.

[Kate Lister]

I think that's fair. And you can't blame them, can you, for.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

No, absolutely not.

[Kate Lister]

Moving through there real quick and sort of telling people scandalous facts, even if they're not entirely true.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Right, right.

[Kate Lister]

What was the state of sex work in the Roman world anyway? Because when you said that, perhaps the idea of a brothel didn't catch on. That makes sense when you think that it was actually widely available everywhere. But what were the Roman attitudes to sex work?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Romans were very open to sex work, but it was very differently construed for those who purchase sex, so male clients and those who provided the sex. So for a guy who wants to buy sex, it's completely legal and it's completely socially acceptable. And the only kind of wrinkle there is if you end up spending your entire inheritance on prostitution. That is seen as something bad. Yeah, that's fair. Exactly.

[Kate Lister]

That's fair.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Leave some for your kids. So no stigma at all for men. Patronizing prostitutes of any gender and doing what they want there. For the people who provided sexual labor and who managed it, it wasn't illegal, but they didn't have as many legal rights. I mean, Roman society is so hierarchical, and one of the things that they do to keep people in their hierarchy is they have a set of legal barriers for people who practice sex work. So most of them were probably enslaved anyways and so didn't actually have legal rights to begin with. But if you were, like, a young widow with a family to raise and you had no source of income, a freeborn woman, you could enter prostitution. But there were. Right. And there were certain things that then you could not anymore do, so you couldn't marry up the social ladder anymore. There were restrictions on how much money you could inherit, and your access to the legal system was restricted. You couldn't bring a lawsuit on behalf of yourself or other people. And this is really interesting, right, because, like, prostitutes are subject to a lot of violence.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. And a lot of things.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Absolutely. So they're really, really vulnerable. They're the ones really need access to the legal system. And the legal system is like, no, if you become a prostitute, you give up the rights to access those. Yeah. You're on your own.

[Kate Lister]

Let's talk about who was working at this brothel. Cause for me, that's one of the most important things about it. Because to find actual voices in their own hand, in their own voice of women from Rome is so rare. It's incredibly rare. To find the voices of people who are enslaved, almost non existent. To find the voices of someone selling sex, a handful of them. And in this building, you have got the voices of enslaved women selling sex that can't exist anywhere else in the entire world.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Again, this is why Pompeii is such a gem. For those who study Roman history, we only have these attestations, these graffiti that were scratched into the wall because the eruption of Vesuvius preserved the wall plaster. Right. It may be in other places prostitutes also scratched messages on walls, but wall plaster falls off over time. And so we don't have that. So this is our one main source. And you're absolutely right. It's such a rich source for all of these types of individuals where we otherwise wouldn't get to hear their voices. So one of my favorite women from the brothel is a woman named mola. This is 100% a stage name. There is no person in the Roman world who would name their daughter Mola. It means grindstone, like the stone you use for grinding flour.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Yeah, that's her stage name, the grindstone. And in a certain one of the graffiti, she's called a factress. And the Latin word is fututrix. This is a super, super rare Latin word. This is one of three times in all of Latin that we get this word. And it's interesting because the ending, T, R, I, X, it means a woman who does whatever the verb is at the beginning. So this is a woman who fucks. And to me is such a great expression of a person who is demonstrating pride and agency in the sexual activity that she has to partake of. And if she is enslaved, right, then she actually doesn't have the ability to control much in her life, including saying yes or no to clients. And yet, nevertheless, and to be fair, we don't know if she wrote it. It could be someone else. It could be a client, it could be a pimp. But someone in that structure is wanting to highlight the fact that she is really good at what she does. Right. And her name Mola then kind of combines with that. And it seems like this was not a universal perception of this particular sex worker. So in that same room, there's also one of the graffiti that says, I fucked Moolah. So someone misspelled her name. I fucked Moolah here.

[Kate Lister]

Shit. Yeah.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

And moolah means a mule. So someone has taken this badass woman who's really good at her job and been like, yeah, Ms. Grindstone, you know what? I think you're a mule and I fucked you. So there's this really interesting dialogue going on the wall of female sexual agency and what we do with that. And maybe there's some disparate opinions among those who were in the struct.

[Kate Lister]

Let's talk about agency, because that. It can seem very counterintuitive because we're assuming that most of the people that worked there were enslaved. And we can talk about how we know that in a second. But not all of them, but the idea of agency within that space, it seems very counterintuitive when somebody was enslaved.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

What's your thoughts on that?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Yeah, no, it's a great question. And some scholars don't even want to use the word agency when discussing slavery because it's shit in it.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, it's slavery, right?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

No, it's. It's slavery. So we could use the word action if we wanted a different word. I think we should at least be attuned to ways in which enslaved people and sex workers are taking what is a really tough situation, really grim. A situation where even in the kind of best of scenarios where you're not a slave, you're. You're freeborn, if you're participating in prostitution, you probably don't have a lot of other choices at that moment. So ways of thinking through how these individuals are able in any way possible to exert any sort of control over their lives or over how they're represented. And if these statements in the brothel are written by sex workers themselves, and I think there's compelling evidence to suggest it's at least possible, if not likely, then we can see like one area where they're trying to craft their Persona. So even if they can't say no to a client, even if they don't otherwise have control or agency, I do think that it's important to pay attention to the ways in which they're trying to work this situation for their benefit. And the idea of emotional labor comes in here too because, you know, I mentioned that one of the common statements in the brothel is prostitutes praising clients for their prowess. I think prostitutes are doing this so that their clients will be like, oh, Mola really thinks I'm great in bed. You know, maybe I will slip her a tip next time. Or you know what? I'm, I'm really starting to fall for Mola. Maybe I will see if I can scrape enough money together to, to buy her freedom. That's like the best case scenario. So that's how I would kind of deal with agency.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Sarah after this short break.

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[Kate Lister]

I think as well. And this is something very controversial, but I'm gonna say it anyway. I think that when we're looking at something like sex work in Rome, you have to park all modern preconceptions about it, all modern attitudes. And yeah, these people were enslaved, but the Romans wouldn't have seen that as a bad thing. You can't find any voices of the people going, hang on a minute, maybe this is a bit shit. So they're taking this as, this is just what happens. And something that I've learned as I've been going along is that contained within the category of slave of an enslaved person, it is subject gradation. Now this sounds completely bonkers, but just go with me. You can have better and worse types of enslavement. Like if somebody is sentenced to be a slave in the mines, that's pretty much a death sentence.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Exactly.

[Kate Lister]

And apparently people were sentenced to work in bakeries as slaves as Slaves. That blew my mind because I thought it would be quite lovely to work in a bakery, but apparently that was an awful, hellish thing as well. So you do have certain types of enslavement that are thought of as better than the others. And I wonder where sex work fits into that. I wonder if you were given the option of being a slave in this space, which is shit anyway, what you would go for, would that be regarded as. Oh, it sounds mad to say it. One of the better categories of enslavement?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

I think it's better than working in a mine. Cause you're right, that's a death sentence. It's not. I would say, other than mines, it's one of the less good tasks you can have as a slave. So you're right, some enslaved people, especially those who work in the imperial household.

[Kate Lister]

And gladiators.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Yeah. Although gladiators are interesting because they can get famous, but they're still disparaged.

[Kate Lister]

But sex workers can get famous too. Who is it who wrote his book about famous prostitutes? It was one of the big Roman authors. So they can too.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

They can too. Most of the ones that we like know their names. They're no longer slaves, they're freed slaves or they're not citizens in some other way. And you're right that there are examples of kind of higher class call girls or maybe like girlfriends on the side. But that's. It's pretty rare. Even in the literature that's written by elite Roman men, they present sex work as something that. That is dangerous. There's a lot of kind of joking among Roman elite authors about beating up prostitutes. Yeah, I know, it's really grim. So I don't think it's a great task. And also something that you mentioned, we have to really throw away our preconceptions. When I started this project, especially when I met Mola through the graffiti, I was like, oh, my God, we have this righteous, awesome sex worker. She's like, proud of what she does. And as I worked on this project, and this was after the book, so after the book, I thought I would never come back to the brothel. And I can't quit it. I still have questions. And I thought more about Mola and I thought to myself, I wonder how old she was. And it was something I never had to address in the book because there's nothing in the brothel that speaks to the age of any of these people. But as I sat down and thought of it, I was like, you know what? But realistically, she's like 10 or 12.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, no, I know. Oh, Mola.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Oh, Romans. I know. This is why I say going to the brothel in the tour guide version covers up a lot of the nuance and the kind of darker aspects. Yeah, we have a lot of evidence that Romans are starting to prostitute enslaved people from a really young age. So that's more likely than like an 18 year old.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, it's absolutely grim however you look at it, isn't it? Probably the best thing we could say about it is it's better than working in the mines, which is an insanely low bar. But let's talk about some of the graffiti, because I've got in front of me my trusty book on Pompeii and graffiti here. And so some of the things that people are writing on the walls. Felicis has fucked here. Felix, you fuck well. Bravo, Paris. Good luck to those from Puttoli. Phoebus the perfumer had a great fuck here. You get. There's a theme, isn't there? Yep. Silen menis. You fuck well. I have fucked here. And Mr. Garlic Farts.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Mr. Garlic Farter.

[Kate Lister]

Tell me about Mr. Garlic Farts.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Oh, Mr. Garlic Farter. This is certainly also a made up name, but, you know, no parents would be like, oh, I'm gonna name my little bundle of joy the Garlic Farter. He's probably a client. So the graffito reads Mr. Garlic Farter. So the Latin is Scordo pordonicus. It's a totally made up name. We don't see it anywhere else. Fucks well here who he wished. So I'm guessing this is a nickname that this guy had and he's either okay with it and is writing this on the wall himself, or like maybe a friend is writing it. So Garlic is thought of as an aphrodisiac in antiquity. So I'm not sure how much in this nickname is entirely mockery and how much is maybe with this aphrodisiac, a little bit less mockery than usual. So that's a fun guy, Mr. Garlic Farter. And he. In the Latin, it's indicating that he is having sex with both men and women. So that's one of our pieces of evidence for male prostitutes in the structure. And there's other graffiti that are written by male prostitutes that make that more explicit.

[Kate Lister]

And somebody called Paris comes up quite a lot. And that seems to have been a male sex worker, which opens up the question, I'd be fascinated to know what you think about this one is were they servicing male clients or female clients? What are you thinking? Do you think there's any chance that Roman women was sneaking away to the brothel?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

There is a chance. There's a chance. And there's one scholar who thinks that there are female clients who interprets my favorite mola as a woman, as a female prostitute who services female clients.

[Kate Lister]

Ooh, okay.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

And there's another graffito in the structure that says, I was fucked here. And in the Latin, it's a feminine form, so I, a woman was fucked here. And the scholar says, why would a. A female prostitute need to write that on the wall? Like, obviously, female prostitutes are fucked in the structure. So he takes those two pieces of evidence together and says, maybe there are female clients either for female prostitutes or male prostitutes. I want to hold space for that, because it's really hard to know what to do with evidence that doesn't fit with what we know. And especially for the history of sex. Right. Sometimes we only have one piece of evidence, and then the question is, what do we do with that? So I want to hold space for that theory, but I'm also confronting Roman ideas more generally about female sexuality. And the norm is for women, you are allowed to have sex with your husband, like, end of story. And not to say that all sorts of things don't happen, because they do. We know from texts that if you're rich and especially if your husband has died, you can basically do what you want. People will talk about you behind your back, but you can do it. So I think that especially for purchasing sex at a brothel, I think there'd be such a societal stigma that I think it's unlikely to happen. I think it's more likely that maybe, like, a woman had, like, a boy toy or boyfriend. But I think going to the brothel is unlikely. But there are scholars who think that. And I do want to hold space for that possibility.

[Kate Lister]

It just seems unlikely with everything I know about. About Roman society, which admittedly is far from everything. But their ideas of gender were very, very binary, and women were very much confined to the domestic sphere, and reputations would be irrevocably damaged with the slightest hint of sexual impropriety. That's you off to go and live on an island somewhere for the rest of your life. Banished.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Exactly. Exactly Right. And the repercussions for women are. Right. Like, you could. You could lose your inheritance. And I do want to say, though, that there is graffiti elsewhere at Pompeii that speaks about female homoeroticism. There's this love poem written on a wall from one woman to another. So we do know that that's taking place, but I don't think that it's necessarily taking place in a brothel setting.

[Kate Lister]

No, I can't. I mean, I kind of hope it did in a weird way, but, yeah, I can't see that one happening either. I think it's more likely that the men or boys working there were servicing male clients.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

I think that's right, yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Is there anything on the walls or anything in the evidence that shows us how the brothel operated? Obviously people came there to have sex and then they paid the money. Yeah, obviously they did. But if it's like other brothels and certainly like the later brothels in Italy that we've got some evidence for, but not in the ancient. Not in ancient Rome is it would have been run by a madam, probably a woman. Is there any sense of who owned it, where they live? Was there someone taking money, payment there on site? Is there anything like that?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Gosh, that's such a great question. And the frustrating answer is that there is nothing that we can look at that tells us anything about that. And so when I was writing the book, I was like, what about the person who, you know, ran this structure? There is nothing there. I have a lot of, I have a lot of theories. Okay, so. So presumably there was someone there. Right. So if most of the people who work there are enslaved, you need someone.

[Kate Lister]

Kind of keeping an eye on things.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Keeping an eye on them. Right. And in Roman literature and law also, brothels are run by either a pimp or a madam. So it's very likely that that's the case. We don't have any physical evidence of that person. I personally think so. The brothel is a two story structure. The brothel proper, like the area where sex was sold, is on the ground floor. That's where tourists go. There is a second level that's completely separate. It's accessed by a separate staircase. It's set up for basically like you can rent small rooms. I myself, and there's no physical evidence to support this, but I myself think that whoever's managing the structure is living upstairs because they can then keep an eye on what's going on.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. I've got a number of sex worker friends and have studied sex work for a long time now. And I was fascinated by the information that I learned when I was in Pompeii. That there is, like you said to it earlier, there's a little latrine in the brothel and something that they found was razors and cleaning paraphernalia. And that for me made me go, oh, right. Because that's the one. Ask any full service sex worker today and they will tell you, just please be clean. I just saw that and I wondered, is that the same thing back in Pompeii, Were they asking clients to wash beforehand?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

Oh, that's a great question. As far as I know. I don't know if we have any testimonies to clients washing beforehand. I think we assume so. We found this little. We have a description, we don't have the object anymore. But this little shell shaped basin, that was for water. I myself assumed it was for the prostitute to wash after sex. And the razor was for facial hair. So there are other ways to depilate the rest of your body hair. So they're doing waxing, they're doing plucking, they're doing singeing, but it seems like they're using razors only for facial hair. So that's another piece of evidence that there are male prostitutes in the structure and that they are trying to keep themselves looking young and desirable.

[Kate Lister]

It's so tantalizing, isn't it? You've just got this space, but there's so many questions within it.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

It.

[Kate Lister]

Who were these people? How old were they? Were they happy? Were they, were they okay? Probably not like what was happening afterwards? Who ran it? Who were the clients? That's the other thing. Do we know who was apart from Mr. Garlic Fart. But I have heard it said that this is where the poor people would have come. This is where the impoverished people would have come. I'm not sure that's the case, you know, because impoverished people throughout history have just sold sex on the street. The brothel seems to be attempting to do something more experiential. What do you think who's visiting this establishment?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

So our best source of evidence is the graffiti. And most of the names that we have. There are names that are typical of enslaved men, do have the names, the kind of full official names of, I want to say two or three freeborn men. And one thing to think about is not everyone who goes into the structure is necessarily going to leave their, their name on the wall. So it may be that there's kind of a broader spectrum of people showing up, but for whatever reason, most of the names are coming from enslaved folks. And what I think is really interesting about this is if these are enslaved men who are coming to the structure to purchase sex, these same individuals, when they return to their. They're probably working in someone's house, right? They're probably enslaved in someone's house. They are the sexual objects of their enslaver. So at home, both male and female enslaved people are subject to, you know, non consensual sex whenever the enslaver wants. And then these individuals choose to use. If you're a household slave, your enslaver can give you a small allowance, and they're choosing to use that money to then go to the brothel and then to be the ones who perform masculinity in this very elite way with the male or female prostitutes who work there. So I think it's this opportunity for them to allow them to be experience like real men, real freeborn men, and these emotional, potentially also these emotional connections that can be forged.

[Kate Lister]

So, final question then. If I had a time machine, and if I could transport you back to the brothel, to the Lupinar, when it was in full flow and you're allowed in, no one's going to get upset with you for interrupting business. What do you want to find out? What is the one thing that I need to know the answer to this question?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

What a great question. I want to know what life is like for those sex workers when there are no clients there, when it's either like, I don't know what times of day people purchase sex, I don't know if it's like the morning hours, like, what is their morning routine, right? And like, are they friendly with each other? What are they doing to support themselves? That's a huge question that I have, and I don't think there's any way to answer that with the evidence we have. But they exist outside of the world of providing sex to clients. They exist as people with their own hopes and dreams. And for the ones who aren't enslaved, who are freeborn, are they going back at the end of the day to their families, right, to their daughter or their mother? I really wanna know about their lives actually, outside of sex.

[Kate Lister]

Sarah, you have been magnificent to talk to. And if people wanna know more about you and your research, I understand you're not on social media, which is very smart of you, but where can they find you? Do you have a website?

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

I do, I have a website at Academia. Edu for anyone who has access to that. And folks can also find my faculty page at the University of Washington, Department of Classics.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you so much for talking to me today. I've thoroughly enjoyed myself.

[Sarah Levine Richardson]

It's been a pleasure.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for listening, listener. Thank you so much to Sarah for joining me. And if you liked what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts and if you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hi, then you can email [e-mail] We've got episodes on everything from the history of red lipstick to medieval lesbians all marching your way. This podcast was edited by Tom Delaghi and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets the History of Sex Scandal in Society, A podcast by History hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

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