Kateryn Parr | Secret Lives of the Six Wives

Summary

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society Episode Summary: "Catherine Parr | Secret Lives of the Six Wives" Release Date: December 20, 2024

In this captivating episode of Betwixt The Sheets, host Kate Lister delves into the life of Catherine Parr, the sixth and final wife of King Henry VIII. Titled "Secret Lives of the Six Wives," this episode offers an in-depth exploration of Catherine Parr's unique position in Tudor history, her influence on the royal court, and her enduring legacy.

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1. Introduction to Catherine Parr

Kate Lister sets the stage by highlighting the tumultuous environment surrounding Henry VIII's marriages. She introduces Catherine Parr as a stark contrast to her predecessors, emphasizing her intelligence and resilience.

Kate Lister [02:56]: "Who were these women that entered the volatile world of the Tudor court? They're known for their individual fates. Divorced, beheaded, died. Divorced, beheaded, survived. But we're finding out who these six women really were and why there is so much more to them than just their husband."

2. Catherine Parr's Background and Marriage to Henry VIII

Dr. Nicola Tallis, a Tudor expert, provides a comprehensive background on Catherine Parr. Unlike previous wives, Catherine was twice widowed and brought a wealth of experience to her marriage with Henry.

Dr. Nicola Tallis [08:19]: "She was already twice widowed before marrying Henry, which made her a mature and stable choice for the aging king."

Lister questions the apparent hypocrisy in Henry VIII marrying a woman with prior marriages after executing his previous wives for perceived infidelities.

Kate Lister [09:27]: "Does this not seem like there's some hypocrisy in this?"

Tallis explains that Catherine's ability to fulfill multiple roles—stepmother, regent, and confidante—appealed to Henry's need for stability and companionship in his declining years.

3. Catherine Parr's Role as Queen and Step-Mother

Catherine Parr's relationship with Henry's children—Mary, Elizabeth, and Edward—is a focal point. Her nurturing role significantly influenced the future queens.

Dr. Nicola Tallis [21:42]: "She got on brilliantly with all of his children. Mary adored her, and Elizabeth and Edward were delighted to have her as a stepmother."

4. Personal Attributes and Influence

Catherine Parr is portrayed as a woman of elegance, intellectual prowess, and strategic acumen. Her passion for jewelry and scholarly pursuits set her apart from her predecessors.

Dr. Nicola Tallis [16:08]: "She wasted no time in putting her own stamp on her jewellery collection, commissioning diamond-laden pieces that reflected her royal status and personality."

Lister challenges the simplistic portrayal of Catherine as merely a subdued companion to Henry, revealing her vibrant and assertive nature.

Kate Lister [17:59]: "Catherine Parr seems a lot more sparky and plucky than I ever thought that she was."

5. Political Involvement and Regency

Catherine's role extended beyond the domestic sphere. In 1544, Henry VIII entrusted her with the governance of England during his military campaign in France, marking one of the few instances of female regency in Tudor England.

Dr. Nicola Tallis [28:04]: "Catherine becomes regent of her husband's realm while he is away, taking her responsibilities seriously and attending all council meetings."

This period showcased her capability to wield power effectively, setting a precedent for her stepchildren's future reigns.

6. Challenges and Plots at Court

Despite her successes, Catherine faced significant challenges, including resistance from conservative factions within the court. Bishop Stephen Gardiner, a staunch Catholic, viewed her suspected Protestant leanings as a threat.

Dr. Nicola Tallis [23:28]: "Gardiner used his influence to try and poison Henry's mind against her, alleging that Catherine was a heretic."

Catherine's adept handling of these accusations—appearing humble and submissive—allowed her to survive where others did not.

Kate Lister [25:07]: "She goes to Henry and says, 'I'm really sorry, you're right,' effectively diffusing the situation."

7. Henry VIII's Death and Catherine's Life Afterward

Upon Henry VIII's death in January 1547, Catherine Parr anticipated her role as regent for the young King Edward VI. However, Henry's will excluded her from governance, reflecting his preference for male leadership.

Dr. Nicola Tallis [31:52]: "Henry made it clear that there wasn't going to be any place for Catherine in the governance of the kingdom."

Shortly after Henry's death, Catherine entered a secret marriage with Thomas Seymour, which ultimately led to personal tragedy. Her marriage was marred by scandal, including inappropriate conduct with her stepdaughter Elizabeth (future Queen Elizabeth I). Her health deteriorated rapidly following the birth of her daughter, Mary, and Catherine died five days postpartum.

Dr. Nicola Tallis [36:53]: "She died five days after giving birth to her baby, marking a tragic end to a life filled with both influence and turmoil."

8. Legacy of Catherine Parr

Catherine Parr's legacy is profound, particularly in her influence on Elizabeth I and her role in demonstrating the potential for female leadership in a male-dominated society.

Dr. Nicola Tallis [37:51]: "We can credit her with having a tremendous influence on the upbringing and shaping of Elizabeth I, who became one of England's greatest monarchs."

Her efforts in promoting education, religion, and governance paved the way for future female leaders, cementing her place in history as a progressive and formidable queen.

Kate Lister [38:55]: "Catherine Parr was someone who bought a lot of glitz and glamour, and we should credit her for that."

9. Conclusion

Kate Lister wraps up the episode by reflecting on Catherine Parr's strength, intelligence, and enduring impact on English history. The episode underscores that Catherine Parr was more than just Henry VIII's last wife; she was a pivotal figure who navigated the complexities of the Tudor court with grace and authority.

Kate Lister [39:25]: "If you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review, and follow along wherever you get your podcasts."

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Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Nicola Tallis [03:02]: "She was a woman who had her own voice and wasn't afraid to use it."
• Dr. Nicola Tallis [16:08]: "She wasted no time in putting her own stamp on her jewellery collection..."
• Dr. Nicola Tallis [21:42]: "She got on brilliantly with all of his children."
• Dr. Nicola Tallis [28:04]: "Catherine becomes regent of her husband's realm..."
• Dr. Nicola Tallis [37:51]: "We can credit her with having a tremendous influence on the upbringing and shaping of Elizabeth I."

This episode not only chronicles Catherine Parr's life but also provides deeper insights into the dynamics of power, gender, and religion in Tudor England. Through engaging discussions and expert analysis, Kate Lister presents Catherine Parr as a multifaceted queen whose legacy continues to resonate through history.

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

Hi, I'm your host, Kate Lister. If you would like Betwixt the Sheets ad free and get early access, sign up to History Hit With a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every single week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.

[Eva Longoria]

Do you ever wonder where your favorite foods come from?

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

Like, what's the history behind bacon wrapped hot dogs?

[Eva Longoria]

Hi, I'm Eva Longoria.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

Hi, I'm Maite Gomez Rejon.

[Eva Longoria]

Our podcast Hungry for History is back.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

And this season we're taking an even.

[Eva Longoria]

Bigger bite out of the most delicious food and its history, saying that the.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

Most popular cocktail is the Margarita, followed by the mojito from Cuba and the pina colada from Puerto Rico.

[Eva Longoria]

Listen to Hungry for history on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

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[Kate Lister]

Hello my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. I am back once again with Betwixt the Sheets and you are back once again with your listening ears on. Hurrah. But before we can go any further, I have to tell you this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adultery things in an adultery way, covering a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. We call that the fair dues warning because once we've said it to you, if you continue listening and you happen to get offended, well, tough. That's kind of on you because fair dues, we did tell you being a Tudor queen was very difficult. I mean you got jewels and nice things, but wow, it was strict. And if you were one of Henry VIII's wives. Well, then the rules just meant doing exactly what he said, bending to every whim and desire, no matter how harebrained or deranged. But as history tells us, that didn't always go to. The women in Henry VIII's life were smart.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

She was a woman who had her own voice and wasn't afraid to use it.

[Kate Lister]

Powerful.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

She wanted to send Henry the dead king's body as like a war trophy.

[Kate Lister]

And rebellious.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

She was a definite seductress who knew exactly how to play Henry.

[Kate Lister]

But they could also be naive.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

She is well aware that there is someone trying to get to the bottom of her previous life and she slips.

[Kate Lister]

Up and downright unlucky.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

I think that there was no way that her life was ever going to be saved.

[Kate Lister]

Who were these women that entered the volatile world of the Tudor court? They're known for their individual fates. Divorced, beheaded, died. Divorced, beheaded, survived. But we're finding out who these six women really were and why there is so much more to them than just their husband. A fat, ginger serial killer with an oversized codpiece and a penchant for jousting. Join me in this miniseries as we explore the secret lives of the six wives. What do you look for? A man?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Oh, money, of course.

[Kate Lister]

You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.

[Eva Longoria]

I make perfect copies of whatever my.

[Kate Lister]

Boss needs by just turning a knob.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

And pushing the button.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Goodness, what beautiful d. Goodness has nothing.

[Kate Lister]

To do with it, dearie. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. I can't quite believe it, but we are here, the finale of our limited series, the sixth and fifth final woman who's etched in the history books for being Henry VIII's last wife, Catherine Parr. He was only 55 when he died, you know. How many more could he have squeezed in if he'd clocked up another decade or two? But Catherine Parr was the final one. After all of the chaos and the tragedy of the women that came before her, there seems a very regal calm about Katherine Parr. Dare I say it, a dignified end to a story which, thanks to the bloated tyrant, she married a man, by the way, who married so many women that three of them were called. Catherine had many indignant moments along the way, to put it mildly. Despite her having two prior marriages to Henry, Catherine Parr fit right in as the Queen of England. How did she use her power to become an influential leader? And stepmother to Mary, Elizabeth and Edward. And as the last woman standing when it comes to playing the Henry games, what became of her after he died? In this final episode of Secret Lives with the Six Wives, I am joined by, of course, author and impeccable Tudor expert Dr. Nicola Tallis to help us get to know Catherine number three a little bit better. Without further ado. Let's do it. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, it's Nicola Tallis. How are you doing?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

I'm absolutely brilliant, thank you, Kate. It's so nice to be back again.

[Kate Lister]

For our final instalment. And we've got to the end to the final one. The one who. Well, who outlived him. If he'd have kept going, God knows how many wives you would have actually had.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah, I know. I often think that myself. I wonder if Katherine thought that, too.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, but Katherine Parr, not to be confused with Katherine Howard, who we looked at in the last episode. So to paint the picture of where we've got up to, Catherine Howard lost her head in quite dramatic circumstances. And it all came out that she hadn't been a virgin when she married Henry. And she'd been. Well, they said she'd been carrying on with other people. Today, we would have said that it was a child abuse, but. Okay. And there was some. Well, there was an admission that she'd been fraternizing, I suppose you'd say, with cul pepper. Even if it wasn't actually sex, it was meeting and flirting and trysts and sneakiness that you shouldn't be doing when you're the queen. So she loses her head. And by all accounts, Henry was gutted about it. He was really upset. If only there was some other way that he could not have ordered his wife's head to be cut off.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

I know, I know, right? I mean, he is absolutely devastated at the loss of his fifth wife. And, I mean, he could have perhaps been forgiven for thinking that marriage wasn't for him. At this point, a lot of other.

[Kate Lister]

People must have been. A lot of other people around him must have been thinking, look, you've had a really good go at this, bud. You've had five cracks of the whip now, maybe this just isn't for you.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Well, yeah, quite right. But again, Henry's still fixated on this idea of having another child. It's still ongoing.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, okay. So despite what other people must have been thinking, he decides I need another wife. I'm just imagining his advisors around him is like, shit, shit, not this again. Okay, so How. How does Catherine Parr even get dragged into this? Who is she? Where is she from? Was there any suggestion that she would ever have been queen?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

No, absolutely not. And she's quite an unusual choice of bride for Henry in lots of respects, because by the time she comes to his notice, which is in 1543, she has been widowed twice herself. So she's already got her own experiences of marriage. And she was the daughter of Thomas Parr and his wife, Maud Green, who. Maud Green had actually been a lady in the household of Henry's first wife, Catherine of Aragon. And in fact, Catherine Parr had probably been named for Catherine of Aragon as well. So there's this kind of strange link there too. And, yeah, Catherine is widowed twice. Her second husband dies in March 1543, and it seems that within a very short space of time, Catherine is at court, she's at Henry's court here, she catches his eye and before long he is determined to make her his wife.

[Kate Lister]

Does this not seem like there's some hypocrisy in this? He's just cut his last wife's head off for not being a virgin when they got married and now he's really interested in a woman that's been married twice?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah, I know it seems like a really strange thing to do, but I think that with Katherine Parr, she was more mature than his last wife, Katherine Howard. Catherine Parr is in her 30s at this point and she's proved herself to be a good wife to her first two husbands. She hasn't had any children. However, she does play the role of stepmother to her second husband's children from his first marriage. And I think that there was something in that that quite appealed to Henry. Let's not forget he's got three children of his own, Mary, Elizabeth and Edward, who have all been left without mothers. So I think that whole idea of having a positive female role model to look after his children as well would also quite have appealed to him. But it's clear as well that he was quite, quite physically attracted to Catherine as well. So this precedent that Catherine set of being a wife and being a wife successfully without cheating on our husbands, effectively, I think, was something that quite appealed to Henry.

[Kate Lister]

It's weird though, isn't it? Because if he's still hell bent on getting a male heir, that he would go for a woman that was in her 30s today, very young, I'd have said. But by the standards of the day, if that's really what he's interested in, then could have gone younger and Also, somebody that's been married but has never had children, like her fertility must be in question. It seems like an odd choice for him.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah, it does in that respect. I think her second husband, he was older than Catherine, so perhaps they may not have necessarily expected to have children together, who knows? But there's this view with Catherine Parr that Henry might have viewed her more as a nursemaid because of the fact that he's not in great health. But actually, that isn't true at all. We know that Catherine was busy doing things to try and make herself sexually attractive to Henry, so she clearly expected that to be an important part of their relationship. Like she buys these special lozenges to make her breath sweet and she buys perfume and she tries to ensure that everything about her is enticing. So clearly she is expecting to have a physical relationship with Henry.

[Kate Lister]

And how old is Henry at this point? And what state is his health in?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

I mean, his health is in a terrible state.

[Kate Lister]

He's in the bin, isn't it?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah, exactly, he is. I mean, his eyesight is failing as well, which is no reflection on Catherine, I should add. And he is still suffering from this ulcerated leg. He's huge at this point. He's put on so much weight and he can barely walk, which makes 10 times worse. So he's definitely no fine physical specimen. And he's in his 50s by contrast to Catherine, who is in her 30s. So he is definitely not particularly physically attractive by now.

[Kate Lister]

And how much time has passed between Catherine Howard losing her head and Henry finding Catherine Parr and setting this marriage up?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

It's over a year, which is almost.

[Kate Lister]

Quite restrained by Henry's standards, isn't it?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

No, it really is, actually. He's done quite well to leave it this far, and I think it's because after Katherine Howard died, there was no really obvious candidate to fulfill this role. And it's only when Catherine Parr herself becomes available following the death of her second husband that perhaps Henry starts looking at her in that way. But she also, by this point, was in love with somebody else. We have to have to mention that.

[Kate Lister]

Who was she in love with?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

She was in love with a gentleman called Thomas Seymour, who was the brother of wife number three, Jane Seymour. So she was quite attracted to him. He was younger, more like her in age, and she seemed to have been very, very fond of him. And that feeling seems to have been reciprocated in turn. And then Henry just steps in the way and makes it clear that he expects Catherine to marry him.

[Kate Lister]

Instead, I'm just wondering, how does she get away with this? But Catherine Howard didn't, because that Catherine Howard fancied Culpepper.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah, I know, but I think at this point nothing had actually happened with.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, she was smart enough just to let it go then.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah. Like, Henry makes it clear that he quite fancies Catherine. And, yeah, she's smart enough to know. She later says, oh, I did really want to marry Thomas, but God basically told me that I had to marry Henry and that I was destined for greater things. So I think she also maybe realized Henry's health isn't that great. He's older. Yeah. That maybe this marriage won't last for too long.

[Kate Lister]

All right, so what was Catherine Parr like? Do we have records of her? Was she. Because they're all so strikingly different, all of these women, it's kind of hard to even get a handle on what Henry's type was. Was she devoutly religious? Was she fiery? Was she docile? Was she into arts and Crafts? What was she like?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Oh, Catherine is totally fabulous. There's so much to like and admire about her. She was someone who really, really cared about her appearance. I mentioned those things, about what she did to make herself attractive. But she really, really loved clothes. She really, really loved jewels and finery. And she was also very scholarly. So she'd been very, very well educated and she had a great interest in books. She also just loved everything about the trappings of queenship. And she seemed to be interested in everything. She loved music as well, she loved poetry. She had a lot in common with Henry in that respect, in terms of their scholarly interests, I suppose, and intellectually, she was quite a good match for him, I would say.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, that's interesting. Okay. And what about her jewellery? Because I know that's your specialist area of research. What kind of bling was Catherine rocking?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

I'm so glad you asked, Kate, because it's really nice to talk about it. Yeah, she loved bling, particularly diamonds. She really loved diamonds and.

[Kate Lister]

Well done.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah, quite right. And she wasted no time in putting her own stamp on her jewellery collection, and she was busy ordering things that really reflected her personality, I would say. So. We know that she commissioned this very special crown brooch that we can see in portraits of her that was made largely of diamonds and that really reflected her interest in royalty and being part of the royal family. And she also ordered a brooch that contained images of herself and Henry. And she had a number of diamond rings as well, and beautifully lavish pendants, things that she really loved to show off. And something that I also think is quite interesting and reflective of Catherine's personality is that she spared no expense in covering all of her everyday items in jewels as well. So even the bindings of her books had jewels on them. I mean, it's almost like she thought, well, I've got all this money. What am I gonna do with it? Oh, yeah, I'll just add a few diamonds to my book cover.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, I love that.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

So she's quite extravagant in her own way, then.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

She's so extravagant. Like, in her first year of being Queen, she orders 117 pairs of shoes.

[Kate Lister]

Holy hell. Wow. Well done.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

She has this reputation as being sort of like the nurse maid queen of, like, of her pushing a very frail Henry around and kind of being like this rather subdued companion who, after looking at Henry's dating past, is just gonna. Well, do what most of us would do, which is just shut up. But she seems to have had quite a lot of character and quite a lot of pizazz about her.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah, she definitely did. I mean, this was a woman who. Yes, Henry wouldn't have been her first choice of husband, but once she is his wife and she's put into that role, she really excels at it. She's got character. She is not afraid to make her voice heard in what's very much a man's world at this time. So she has got this kind of quiet confidence about her and this real sense of knowing who she is and wanting to show people who she is. I mean, even her toilet is covered in crimson velvet.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, I like her. I like her. This is somebody who's gonna absolutely make the most of this Quite. Quite bizarre situation, actually, I would have said, is that she suddenly the fucking queen. Like, how has this happened? And married to a lunatic as well. So we may as well. Yeah. Put velvet on the toilet seats. Do we know. Do we know how they met? How or when they met? Or was it just one of these? Like, she was at court and he fancied her stories.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah. We don't know exactly how she met. There was some suggestion that perhaps Catherine had been part of the household of Henry's eldest daughter, Mary, but that is disputed. We don't know if that was the case. She was just somebody who does seem to have been at court on occasion and someone who just caught his eye.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. It's interesting to sort of wonder what he was looking for at that point, because he was constantly in pain. He'd been heartbroken. He's been king For a long time. He's. He's not doing very well. He's fucked things up with. Well, I won't say fucked things up, but he's split from Rome. Fucked things up. Depending on your perspective, I guess you sort of get the sense that maybe he was just looking for a bit of peace and quiet. Or maybe I've got that wrong.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Well, I feel like he was not necessarily looking for a bit of peace and quiet. I think that he was looking for a wife who was mature as Catherine was considered to be, who could provide a bit of stability for his children and be a good role model to them, which Catherine definitely was. And, yeah, who could offer him a bit of companionship, but who he was also attracted to. I think, like, we do have to remember that he clearly was physically attracted to Catherine. They did share a bed and Henry was still hopeful that they would have children, which obviously they don't. But I think Catherine really ticks a lot of boxes for Henry at this point in his life. And he did see her as someone who wasn't going to screw him over, who would just provide him with everything that he needed in his later years.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Nicola and Catherine after this short break.

[Eva Longoria]

Do you ever wonder where your favorite foods come from?

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

Like, what's the history behind bacon wrapped hot dogs?

[Eva Longoria]

Hi, I'm Eva Longoria.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

Hi, I'm Maite Gomez Rejon.

[Eva Longoria]

Our podcast Hungry for History is back.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

And this season we're taking an even.

[Eva Longoria]

Bigger bite out of the most delicious food and its history, seeing that the.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

Most popular cocktail is the margherita, followed by the mojito from Cuba and the pina colada from Puerto Rico.

[Eva Longoria]

Listen to Hungry for history on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kate Lister]

Did she get on with his kids? That's another crucial piece to this game. It seems to be how you treat his children.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah, yeah, she got on brilliantly with all of his children. They all adored her. Mary, the eldest, there was only four years between her and Catherine. So the dynamic of that relationship is a bit different. It's more like friends, but with Edward and Elizabeth, who are still young children. So Elizabeth is just about to reach her 10th birthday at the time that Catherine marries Henry, and Edward's four years younger. So these are two children who are very much in need of a mother and Catherine was delighted to provide that and fill that role for them and she really did care for them and they adored her in turn.

[Kate Lister]

And she was a published author as well, wasn't she? Yeah, yes.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

The first Queen of England to publish, well, not just one book, but two books under her own name and another one anonymously. So, yeah, she was incredibly clever. She was. There was a lot to admire about her. She wasn't afraid to put her thoughts on paper. And these are all religious works, the works that she. The books that she published. But, yeah, she's definitely really, really intelligent and extraordinary. And these books are bestsellers, so there's clearly a demand for them. And Catherine was obviously very proud of them because she ordered copies of these books to give as presents to her family and her friends. So she was obviously somebody who was not only hugely intelligent in her own right, but wanted people, other people, to see that and benefit from that as well.

[Kate Lister]

She was very popular, but not popular with everyone, because there were some plots against her, weren't there?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yes, yes. In 1546, so the last year of Henry's life, these plots to remove Catherine come to light. And these are really under the auspices of Stephen Gardner, who was Henry VIII's Bishop of Winchester. And he was fearful of Catherine, really, because Gardiner was very much a Catholic religious conservative, and there were rumors swirling that Catherine was basically a secret Protestant. So even though Henry has removed himself and England from.

[Kate Lister]

Just about to say what he's.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah, I know. So it's quite confusing. But even though Henry has removed England and himself from papal authority in Rome and established himself as head of the Church of England, he is still very much a Catholic at heart. It's only the authority of the Pope that he objects to, rather than the religious beliefs themselves. So Henry's Catholic at heart, and there are people at court, like Gardiner, who are also Catholic. But it's feared that Catherine has got religious leanings which are far too radical than those that Henry believes in, that they're more in keeping with the Protestant movement that's been taking hold in Europe. And that's a dangerous thing to be in England at this time. And Gardiner really uses this knowledge of Catherine's supposed religious beliefs to try and poison Henry's mind against her. And he's saying, well, look, your wife, she's arguing with you about theology here. These conversations that you're having about your religious views, these scholarly debates. Catherine's actually arguing she's actually a heretic and she's dangerous. You should get rid of her. And in fact, to begin with, Henry sort of goes along with this. He believes that this is the case because he believes that in some respects, Catherine's become too big for her boots. They are having these conversations about theology. And he is worried that Catherine has got heretical views, so he issues this warrant for her arrest. So very, very radical. And fortunately for Catherine, Gardiner supposedly drops this warrant. And it's picked up by one of Catherine's ladies, who rushes to her and says, my goodness, your majesty, look what I found. And Catherine realizes, being of course, very aware of the fates of Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard before her, albeit for different reasons, but realizes that her life is under threat at this point and is determined not to go the same way. And so she goes to Henry and she basically says to him, I'm really sorry, of course, you're right. Of course I don't have beliefs that are at odds with yours. What do I know? I'm just a silly woman. Like, of course I'm more than happy to go along with what you think and what you believe, which is a smart move in the circumstances. Really smart move. And she succeeds where Katherine Howard fails. She sees her husband face to face, and that's all it takes. Henry believes what Catherine tells him and he refuses to send her to the Tower. And she's okay. She's let off and they become friends again.

[Kate Lister]

That's a fucking close call, though.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Very close call. Yeah. Very close call.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. And what happened to the guy that was trying to get her ousted?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Well, Henry makes it clear that he's not too happy with him by any means, because Gardner arrives to confront Catherine with a replaced warrant, by this time having realized he's lost the first one. And Catherine is with Henry at this time. And Henry flies into a rage and basically says, like, this is ridiculous. You've tried to remove my wife from me. She's done nothing wrong. And Catherine is spared. Gardiner is very much in disgrace at this point. There's no other action taken against him, but it's made clear to him that he's not to point his wrath in Catherine's direction any longer.

[Kate Lister]

That's a narrow escape there, Catherine. So Henry's getting. He's getting older and older and weak and sicker and sicker, and he's not in the best of health. Was she not ruling in his absence, but was she kind of stepping into. Was she involved in the sort of the politics and the role of the country, or did she just sort of keep it back to just being a queen?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Well, she is given an opportunity to take part in the politics of the country. When in 1544, Henry decides to invade France, he wants one final step, stab in his life at Military glory. And as he's done before with Catherine of Aragon, he now entrusts the government of the realm to his wife, Catherine Parr.

[Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

And so Catherine becomes regent, following the footsteps again, Catherine of Aragon. She becomes regent of her husband's realm whilst he is away. And this is a time that Catherine seemed to really excel, and she really shone in this role, and she really took her responsibilities as regent seriously. She doesn't have to face the same kinds of things as Catherine of Aragon. So there's no war with Scotland and there's none of that. But we do see her. She attends all of Henry's council meetings, which can't have been particularly interesting, I wouldn't think.

[Kate Lister]

No, no, well done. Well done.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

She has all of her royal stepchildren around her as well, so that they all get the opportunity to see a woman wielding power, which is, I think, something that's quite important in the case of girls. And she signs all of her letters Catherine the Queen Regent. So it's something that clearly matters a great deal to her and that she takes great pride in.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. And that sounds like she had a pretty big influence on Elizabeth and Mary, who would be queens in their own right.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah, definitely. I think let's not forget that at this point, there hadn't really been any precedent for female rule before at all. And I think that this was a really important and strong example for both Mary and Elizabeth of how a woman could assert her authority when given the opportunity and do it really, really well. So, yeah, I think that both Mary and Elizabeth do learn some really important early lessons from their stepmother.

[Kate Lister]

So she outlives Henry, and we should talk a bit about Henry's death. And so, like, what happens and where she is in all of this.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah. So Henry dies in January 1547.

[Kate Lister]

And was it a sudden death or was it sort of like, yeah, we've seen this.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah, it was something that had been building up, really, for months. I mean, I think nobody wanted to tell Henry that he was gonna die. No, that's not something that you do until right at the end, in any case. But people had witnessed a decline in his health. They had seen it coming. And Catherine wasn't with him at the time that he died. She hadn't seen him since the previous month, and she had been pretty much kept separate from him. She largely at the behest of Henry's advisors, who'd been trying to set the wheels in motion for what was going to happen next. And we know that Catherine was hoping, perhaps even expecting that she would become regent after Henry's death because his son Edward is nine at this point, so it's quite clear. Nine year old boy can't rule on his own. And having done so well in her earlier role as queen regent, I think it was only natural for Catherine to expect that she might be given a leading role. But there were other people in the realm that had different ideas, and those included Henry himself. And because he ultimately believed that it was always preferable to have a man in charge rather than a woman.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

And he makes his will on 30 December 1546. And in this he makes it clear that there isn't going to be any place for Catherine in the governance of the kingdom.

[Kate Lister]

Brilliant.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

He does leave her very generously provided for, though. He gives her lots of money and she's allowed to keep and use all of her jewels for the rest of her life.

[Kate Lister]

So not bad. Yeah.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

So some nice perks to it, but yeah, when Henry breathes his last, Catherine isn't there.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Nicola and Catherine after this short break.

[Eva Longoria]

Do you ever wonder where your favorite foods come from?

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

Like, what's the history behind bacon wrapped hot dogs?

[Eva Longoria]

Hi, I'm Eva Longoria.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

Hi, I'm Maite Gomez Rejon.

[Eva Longoria]

Our podcast Hungry for History is back.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

And this season we're taking an even.

[Eva Longoria]

Bigger bite out of the most delicious food and its history, saying that the.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

Most popular cocktail is the margarita, followed by the mojito from Cuba and the pina colada from Puerto Rico.

[Eva Longoria]

Listen to Hungry for history on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kate Lister]

Was the pandemic a natural disaster or.

[Dr. Nicola Tallis]

Was it the biggest cover up of our time?

[Kate Lister]

And what happens when the scientists and the science are at odds? Who should you Trust?

[Eva Longoria]

Thank youk.

[Kate Lister]

Dr. Fauci is available now. Watch the trailer and visit tydfmovie.com for. And so what happens to her afterwards then? She's. I mean, you know, she's kind of. She won.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yes, I know.

[Kate Lister]

You shouldn't look at it like that. Well, like that. But given his past dating record, like, yeah, she's. She's outlived him. She's a widow for the third time. Only now she's considerably better off.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah, exactly that. And in some respects it seems like Catherine also thought that she'd won because it's probably only weeks after Henry's death that she remarries. And.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

She does it secretly though, because officially she's supposed to be in mourning. For Henry viii, that's risky. It's very risky. But she goes back to her former flame, Thomas Seymour, who she's always really had a soft spot for, and they begin. To begin with, it's an affair. He's snuck in and out of her house. And within a very, very short space of time, they do marry secretly. It's still so secret. In fact, no one knows exactly when this happened, but it is shortly after Henry's death. And I think it's almost like at this point, Catherine thought, well, I've been married three times. The last time, I didn't really want to marry, but God told me that I should do my duty. Now I'm gonna marry someone who I actually want to marry, and I'm gonna marry for love and good honour.

[Kate Lister]

Okay? Okay. See, I don't think I would have got married at that point. I would have just been like, no, no, I'm done now. Men haven't been particularly useful to me. But she did fancy him for a long time, didn't she?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah. I think there's no denying the fact that lust comes into this a lot. She really, really fancies Thomas Seymour, and I think who can begrudge her that little bit of happiness? On a personal note, at this point.

[Kate Lister]

Wasn'T this the same Thomas Seymour that tried it on with Elizabeth? Yes, though.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yes.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, Scallywag.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

See, so Catherine does end up getting her heart broken because Elizabeth came to live with Catherine After Henry VIII's death. And then Thomas comes along, too, and he begins, as we would term it today, abusing Elizabeth. And to begin with, Catherine tries to turn a blind eye to what's going on. And then, bizarrely, she joins in and. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Oh. Oh, dear.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

We're told that she tickles Elizabeth in bed along with her husband one morning. And on another occasion, she holds Elizabeth down whilst Thomas cuts her gown. It's not great from Catherine's perspective. And then the real crunch point comes when on one occasion, Catherine stumbles across Thomas and Elizabeth, when Elizabeth is sat on Thomas's knee and she's got her arms about his neck. And it's at that point that Catherine, who's pretty upset by this point, but realizes that things can't continue and that Elizabeth's gonna have to go, yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, dear. Oh, that's not good, is it? How old was Elizabeth when that was happening?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Elizabeth's 14, Elizabeth's 14, and Catherine's 36. So, yeah, it's. And to make matters worse, Catherine was by now pregnant with her first child. So it's not good.

[Kate Lister]

And what happens to Catherine after this? I don't even know how her story ends.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Yeah. So Elizabeth is banished from the household. Catherine and Thomas seem to patch up their marriage and they move. They leave London. They go to Thomas's country estate of Sudeley Castle in the Cotswolds, and it's there that Catherine gives birth to her first child, a baby girl who's named Mary after her eldest stepdaughter. And to begin with, it looks as though Catherine will recover, but very sadly, it didn't take long for her health to deteriorate and. Yeah, and she fell into this state of delirium and she died five days after giving birth to the baby.

[Kate Lister]

And did the baby survive?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Probably not. The baby probably survived until she was about 2 years old and from that point on she disappears from the record. So it's almost certain that she died young.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, that's a rather sad end. But what do you think is Catherine Parr's legacy? Like, we think of her as the one who survived, the one who kind of won. But is her legacy bigger than that, do you think?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Definitely, I think so. I think that we can credit her with having had a tremendous influence on the upbringing and the shaping of one of our very first queen regnants, Elizabeth I probably also Mary, but Elizabeth is the one who really does it quite successfully. And I think that a lot of this comes from Catherine and those early lessons and that care and nurture that Catherine had shown her. I think Catherine is the one who really sets the precedent for showing that a woman can wield power and do it successfully.

[Kate Lister]

Absolutely. Oh, I've loved talking to you about all of these queens and Catherine Parr seems a lot more sparky and plucky than I ever thought that she was.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

She definitely was. She. She was someone who bought a lot of glitz and glamour, I think, and we should credit her for that.

[Kate Lister]

And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

They can come along and follow me on my social media platforms, which are X Instagram threads and TikTok, and they can check out my website, nicoletalis.com youm.

[Kate Lister]

Have been marvellous and I've thoroughly enjoyed this series. Thank you so much for coming to talk to us about the six wives of Henry vii.

[Unnamed Female Speaker]

Thank you for having me, Kate.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for listening. And a big, huge final thank you to Nicola for joining me. The whole way through this miniseries. Couldn't have done it without you. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email [e-mail] with the Christmas period coming up, we will be dusting off our episode on the Real Charles Dickens with none other than Miriam Margulies, and we will be looking forward to a new year of more filthy and fascinating histories with you fabulous people. This podcast was edited and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets the History of Sex Scandal in Society, A podcast by History hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

[Eva Longoria]

Do you ever wonder where your favorite foods come from?

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

Like, what's the history behind bacon wrapped hot dogs?

[Eva Longoria]

Hi, I'm Eva Longoria.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

Hi, I'm Maite Gomez Rejon.

[Eva Longoria]

Our podcast Hungry for History is back.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

And this season we're taking an even.

[Eva Longoria]

Bigger bite out of the most delicious food and its history, seeing that the.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

Most popular cocktail is the margarita, followed by the Mojito from Cuba and the pina colada from Puerto Rico.

[Eva Longoria]

Listen to Hungry for history on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.