Nell Gwyn: Celebrity Mistress of King Charles II

Summary

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society Episode: Nell Gwyn: Celebrity Mistress of King Charles II Release Date: April 15, 2025

Hosts:

• Kate Lister: Sex historian and host of Betwixt the Sheets.
• Dr. David Taylor: Associate Professor of English at Oxford University.

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Introduction to Nell Gwyn and Restoration Theatre

[02:43] Kate Lister:
Kate opens the episode with enthusiasm, highlighting the significance of Nell Gwyn in Restoration Theatre and her unique position as one of King Charles II’s most famous mistresses. She sets the stage for a deep dive into Nell’s journey from humble beginnings to royal notoriety.

[05:03] Kate Lister:
Kate emphasizes Nell Gwyn’s charismatic and talented nature, stating, “Nell Gwyn, or Mama as I like to call her, was charismatic, hilarious, super smart and talented as hell.” She poses critical questions about Nell's social ascent and her pioneering role in comedy acting.

Nell Gwyn’s Early Life and Rise to Fame

[07:04] Dr. David Taylor:
Dr. Taylor provides historical context, explaining that Nell Gwyn became a prominent figure during the reign of King Charles II, who reigned from 1660 to 1685. He notes the tumultuous period of the English Civil War and the Restoration of the monarchy in 1660, which set the backdrop for Nell’s rise.

[09:08] Kate Lister:
Kate describes Nell as the quintessential rags-to-riches story, highlighting her working-class origins and the social obstacles she overcame to gain prominence.

[12:02] Dr. David Taylor:
Dr. Taylor delves into Nell’s murky early life, admitting, “The information we have is not necessarily especially reliable, and it's also conflicting.” He discusses various accounts of her birthplace and upbringing, including the possibility that she was raised in a brothel, serving liquor to guests.

Pioneering Restoration Actress

[16:49] Dr. David Taylor:
Dr. Taylor explains that Nell was among the first women to perform on the English stage, a significant shift from previous practices where female roles were played by men. He states, “Nell was among that group” of pioneering actresses following the reopening of theatres after the Restoration.

[17:43] Dr. David Taylor:
He highlights the dual perception of actresses at the time—admired as novelties and celebrated performers by some, yet reviled and equated with prostitution by others. An example includes Rebecca Marshall’s confrontation with a heckler, leading to her assault with excrement, illustrating the hostility actresses faced.

[19:19] Kate Lister:
Kate reinforces this duality by comparing historical attitudes toward actresses with modern perceptions of sex workers, noting the “dual side of revulsion and also attraction.”

Nell Gwyn’s Relationship with King Charles II

[24:43] Kate Lister:
Kate inquires about Nell’s transition from a struggling actress to the King’s mistress, questioning how she secured such a prominent position.

[25:10] Dr. David Taylor:
Dr. Taylor explains that Nell began her career selling oranges to theatre audiences before securing acting roles by her early teens. By 1665, she was acting on stage and gained significant attention following the Great Plague and subsequent reopening of theatres in 1666.

[26:03] Kate Lister:
Kate connects Nell’s breakthrough to her success in Restoration comedies, particularly her role in John Dryden’s Secret Love for Her, which showcased her wit and independence.

[31:51] Dr. David Taylor:
Dr. Taylor outlines Nell’s official recognition as the King’s mistress by 1669, including her acknowledgment and provision by the King. He notes that Nell was strategically promoted by political figures like the Duke of Buckingham to counterbalance other influential mistresses.

[34:06] Kate Lister:
Kate explores the stability Nell enjoyed as the King’s mistress, questioning whether mistresses could maintain their status post the King’s reign.

[34:51] Dr. David Taylor:
Dr. Taylor provides reassurance, stating that Nell was well-provisioned with pensions and property, which continued under King James II. This financial security helped her maintain her status even after Charles II’s death in 1685.

Nell Gwyn’s Social and Political Environment

[37:10] Dr. David Taylor:
Dr. Taylor discusses the complex political landscape, including King Charles II’s secret treaty with Louis XIV and the religious tensions of the time. He elaborates on how Nell, being Protestant and English, was more politically palatable compared to other mistresses like the French Catholic Duchess of Portsmouth.

[39:45] Kate Lister:
Kate admires Nell’s ability to navigate the competitive and often toxic environment among the King’s mistresses, citing her interactions with Barbara Villiers as evidence of her diplomatic prowess.

[40:02] Dr. David Taylor:
Dr. Taylor concurs, noting that Nell was less politically ambitious than other mistresses, which likely contributed to her sustained favor with the King. He contrasts her with other more politically active mistresses who wielded significant influence.

Nell Gwyn’s Legacy and Impact

[45:26] Kate Lister:
Kate questions the glorification of Nell’s story, acknowledging the hardships and abuses she endured while recognizing the power and agency she exhibited.

[45:50] Dr. David Taylor:
Dr. Taylor emphasizes Nell’s seizing of opportunities: “She seized every opportunity given to her.” He lauds her as a pioneer in theatre and comedy, arguing that she significantly influenced the representation of women in Restoration comedy.

[46:52] Kate Lister:
Kate adds that Nell could be considered one of the first female comedians, highlighting her role in shaping comedic roles for women.

[47:22] Kate Lister:
Kate reflects on Nel’s ability to maintain her status and legacy, despite the societal constraints and personal challenges she faced.

Conclusion and Final Reflections

[47:57] Kate Lister:
Kate wraps up the discussion by summarizing Nell’s achievements and encouraging listeners to explore further through the upcoming documentary series on History Hit.

[45:56] Kate Lister:
In her final thoughts, Kate underscores Nell’s enduring legacy as both a royal mistress and a trailblazing actress, celebrating her as a multifaceted figure who navigated and influenced the social and political spheres of her time.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. David Taylor [09:44]:
  “She was such a personality. This is a woman who really embodies the kind of rags to riches story that we all love.”

• Kate Lister [15:48]:
  “It's a really effective psychological tactic. That is you take the thing that people are trying to shame you for and you absolutely inhabit it and use it against them.”

• Dr. David Taylor [45:55]:
  “I think what you can say about Nell is that she seized every opportunity given to her.”

Key Takeaways:

1. Pioneering Actress:
   Nell Gwyn was among the first women to perform on the English stage, breaking significant gender barriers in Restoration Theatre.

2. Rags to Riches:
   From potentially being born in a brothel to becoming a celebrated actress and royal mistress, Nell’s ascent is a testament to her charisma and opportunism.

3. Relationship with Charles II:
   Nell maintained a long-term relationship with King Charles II, securing financial stability and social status through her position as his mistress.

4. Social and Political Navigation:
   Nell adeptly navigated the intricate social and political landscape of the Restoration period, maintaining favor without the overt political ambition of some of her contemporaries.

5. Legacy as a Pioneer:
   Beyond her role as a royal mistress, Nell Gwyn is celebrated for her contributions to theatre and comedy, influencing the portrayal of women in the performing arts.

6. Enduring Recognition:
   Despite societal prejudices and personal challenges, Nell secured a lasting legacy through her talents, relationships, and philanthropic efforts.

Conclusion:

Nell Gwyn's life exemplifies the complexities of female agency and resilience in a patriarchal and class-stratified society. Her contributions to theatre and her influential role as King Charles II’s mistress highlight her as a multifaceted figure who leveraged her talents and relationships to navigate and shape her social environment. Dr. David Taylor’s insights underscore Nell’s pivotal role in both the cultural and political spheres of her time, cementing her legacy as a pioneering and enduring historical figure.

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

Hi, I'm your host Kate Lister. If you would like Betwixt the Sheets ad free and get early access, Sign up to History Hit With a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every single week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.

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This podcast is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics presenting on Swift Horses starring Daisy Edgar Jones, Jacob Elordi, Will Poulter, Diego Calva and Sasha Calle. Muriel and her husband Lee are beginning a bright new life in California when he returns from the Korean War. But their newfound stability is upended by the arrival of Lee's charismatic brother Julius, a wayward gambler with a secret past. A dangerous love triangle quickly forms when Julius takes off in search of the young card sheet he's fallen for. Mary Muriel's longing for something more propels her into a secret life of her own, gambling on racehorses and exploring a love she never dreamed possible on Swift horses. Opens April 25th. Only in theaters. Get tickets now at onswifthorses.com this podcast is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if your info is found. It also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal to help keep you safe for a limited time. Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked, all for [e-mail] safety that's aura.com safety to sign up and protect your loved ones. That's aura.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.

[Holly Fry]

Our Skin Tells a Story Join me, Holly Fry, and a slate of incredible guests as we are all inspired by their journeys with psoriasis. Along with these uplifting and candid personal histories, we take a step back into the bizarre and occasionally poisonous history of our skin and how we take care of it. Whether you're looking for inspiration on your own skincare journey or are curious about the sometimes strange history of how we treat our skin, you'll find genuine, empathetic, transformative conversations here on Our Skin. Listen to our skin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kate Lister]

Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister and you are listening to Betwixter Sheets and I'm so glad that you are because if you weren't. What is this? It's just a mad northern woman talking to herself. So thank God you are here. But before we can go any further, I do have to tell you this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adultery way, covering range of adult subjects and used to be an adult too. I think we all know the drill by now, don't we? Right, on with the show. Good evening, Betwixters. I'm shouting at you because it's very noisy in here. Come and take a seat. Here we are, it's the mid 1660s and we are in for a rollicking evening of Restoration Theatre. It's good to get some culture in before the great fire and the plague arrives. But this isn't the respectful high class event that we think about when we say we're going to the theater today. Tonight we are seeing history being made with women playing women's roles on stage for the very first time. What an absolutely mad idea. My God, they'll be writing stuff next. But not only that, there is one performer in particular who has caught everybody's attention and that is a very, very, very young Nell Gwynn. Or as Samuel Pepys called her, pretty young witty Nell. And she's also managed to catch the eye of the new flamboyant King Charles ii. Do you want to know more about this remarkable woman and the ultimate rags to riches story? Well, so do I. So let's get on with it. What do you look for? A man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

[Dr. David Taylor]

Goodness.

[Kate Lister]

What beautiful Dan. Goodness has nothing to do with it, dearie. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. Nell Gwyn, or Mama as I like to call her, was charismatic, hilarious, super smart and talented as hell. Her story is so compelling because she came from absolutely nothing and went on to become the favorite mistress of a king. But how did this self proclaimed Protestant hall climb the social ladder at a time when social mobility was almost impossible for everybody, but especially for women? What made her a pioneer of comedy acting? And how did the public react to her being such a visible mistress? To their king. Well, joining Me today is Dr. David Taylor, Associate professor of English at Oxford University, and he is going to take us back to the rough and ready world of Restoration Theatre, where Nell rose to fame. Hello, and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only David Taylor. How are you doing?

[Dr. David Taylor]

I'm very, very well indeed. Very excited to be having this chat with you.

[Kate Lister]

Do you know something? This is a long time coming. This episode is so overdue. We've been doing this podcast now for two years and we haven't done a special on Nell Gwyn. Isn't that's just ridiculous, isn't it?

[Dr. David Taylor]

It is, but she's worth waiting for.

[Kate Lister]

She is worth waiting for and you're worth waiting for. And by way of apology to all the Nell fans, we do also have a documentary on Nell that's coming out at the same time that you and I are both in. So we've gone full force, absolutely for this, because we love Nell, we really do. There will be people listening to this after that amazing introduction that I've given to Nell. People going, who? So let's start with a real page one beginner question. Who was Nell Gwyn?

[Dr. David Taylor]

So Nell Gwyn was perhaps the most famous mistress of King Charles II. King Charles II reigned from 1660 through to 1685. And the key thing to know about King Charles II is that he's a son of King Charles I, the beheaded King Charles I. So he was only 18 when he learned that his father had been executed for treason in 1649.

[Kate Lister]

Yikes.

[Dr. David Taylor]

Britain, of course, goes through a period of civil war in the 1640s. And then in the 1650s, we have an English republic in which ultimately, Oliver Cromwell is more or less the leader, the King in all but name. But once Cromwell dies in 1658, his son succeeds him. There's a bit of a power vacuum. And ultimately that leads, to many people's surprise, to the restoration of the monarchy in 1660. Back comes Charles Charles II onto the throne and he's a man of many mistresses.

[Kate Lister]

He has a big appetite, that lad, doesn't he?

[Dr. David Taylor]

Oh, he has a very big appetite. And Nell is his most famous mist. What's interesting about Nell, in comparison to really pretty much all of his other major mistresses, is that she is working class and she begins her career as an actress on the stage. Now, the stage is also important because the Puritans had closed down the theatres, the public theatres, in 1662, and they remained shut until the king returned in 1660. So the theatres were reopened just as England got its monarchy back. So Nell was one of the very first actresses. Because the really key thing is that this new theatre, the theatre after 1660 for the first time features women performers. I mean, as many people will know, in Shakespeare's theatre In the early 17th century, all the female parts are played by adolescent boys. All that changes in 1660. You get this pioneering group of first actresses and Nell is among that group.

[Kate Lister]

So she is the ultimate. She's working class girl made good. We'll get into this. Of like what she actually had to do to achieve those kind of social obstacles is insane. But there's a lot of mythology that surrounds it and it's kind of mad that she still got that reputation today. People, even if they're not history buffs or they're not theatre buffs, they might still have heard the name of a mistress of King Charles from the 17th century. Like, what is it about this woman? Like, he had loads of mistresses and several of them were actresses. Why Nell? Why is she endured?

[Dr. David Taylor]

That's such a great question. Yeah. I mean, Charles has multiple mistresses. Ultimately he has at least 14 illegitimate children. We know of 14 illegitimate children by seven different women. But he had more mistresses than that. And he almost certainly had more illegitimate children than that number.

[Kate Lister]

And he was married.

[Dr. David Taylor]

And he was married. Exactly. And he was to, you know, his poor long suffering wife, Catherine de Braganza. And it's interesting, I mean, if you go to Drury Lane Theatre in London, right? Opposite Drury Lane theatre is a pub called Nell of Drury. Right. She's part of the topography of London's theatreland. I think she's endured because she was such a personality. This is a woman who really embodies the kind of rags to riches story that we all love. And she's also a woman who had no time for the formalities, for the niceties of royal courts. Okay. She was known to be very funny, she was known to swear a lot and she was known to be always informal. The Bishop of Salisbury called her the wildest creature ever to be seen at court.

[Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Dr. David Taylor]

So I think that has a lot to do with it. And I think, I mean, I think that has a lot to do with her during appeal. I think it also has a lot to do with why she appealed to Charles so much. She was such a breath of fresh air for many of the other mistresses he had, lots of whom were from either the aristocracy or certainly from the higher classes. He did have other actresses as mistresses. Moll Davis is the other name in particular to mention, but Nell. Nell was known on stage for her witty parts. The Restoration diarist Samuel Pepys refers to her early on as pretty witty Nell. And I think it's that sense of wit that she has on stage. The fact that she's not going to take anything from anyone, she's not going to take any rubbish from the men around her. I think it's that that also really appeals to Charles, and I think that's really key also to her enduring popularity.

[Kate Lister]

What do we know about her very early life? Because, as I'm sure that you will explain and we'll talk about is Nell was also master of her own PR and her own spin. I think that she was very much aware of the reputation that she had and she cultivated it. But what do we know about where she was born, for example? Do we have any information about that?

[Dr. David Taylor]

The information we have is not necessarily especially reliable, and it's also conflicting. We have some accounts that suggest that she was born in Hereford, others that suggest she was born in Oxford or in London. We can't even be sure of the year of her birth. It's either 1650 or 1651.

[Kate Lister]

Right, okay.

[Dr. David Taylor]

She tells Samuel Pepys, who I've already mentioned, the diarist. She tells her, or at least he reports, that she's told her that she was brought up in a bawdy house to fill strong water for the guests. That is, she was brought up in a brothel to serve liquor to those who had come to the brothel. Okay, so she has a very strange and slightly obscure and almost certainly, you know, semi kind of criminal upbringing. We know, for instance, that her sister Rose was imprisoned for theft in the early 1660s.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Dr. David Taylor]

Her mother was certainly an alcoholic. And we don't know much about her father. Some reports have it that he died in debtors prison in Oxford. Others suggest that he may have worked for Christchurch, a college and cathedral in Oxford, or that he may have fought for the Royalist armed forces in the Civil wars. But we have all of this slight different and contradictory information. So her upbringing to some extent is shrouded in obscurity, which is perhaps not surprising for someone who from a class where there would be few written records. Okay. Why would anyone be noticing someone so seemingly insignificant? It does seem to be the case that she never learned to read or write, that she was illiterate, that she was. On. The letters we have, they seem to have been written by other people and then simply signed by her as E. G. Elena Gwyn, which makes her career in this Theater. All the more remarkable. How on earth did she learn her lines?

[Kate Lister]

Today, if you have a very working class background, if you manage to scale the upper echelons of society or you get a job in being an actor, and it's amazing, there is a certain amount of kudos around it of like that you've got this working class grit and, you know, determination. And we look at people with a background like that, with a sort of like a. Yeah, like they've really been there. Not that there aren't severe social obstacles still for people to born in working class environments, but in the 17th century, how would somebody with Nell's background have been looked upon? Would they have also thought, yeah, true grit, determination, or would it have been a very different attitude?

[Dr. David Taylor]

Very different, yeah. The extent of the prejudice would be extreme, really extreme. That absolutely dogged her throughout her career, as it dogged all of the actresses who are seen as working and working class women.

[Kate Lister]

Right, Yeah.

[Dr. David Taylor]

I mean, one satire of court life describes Nell as having been raised from the dunghill.

[Kate Lister]

See, that's not nice, is it?

[Dr. David Taylor]

It's not nice. It's not nice. Another one of Charles's mistresses, Barbara Villiers.

[Kate Lister]

She was a cow. She was like, wow.

[Dr. David Taylor]

Exactly. And she referred to Nell as that pitiful strolling actress. What's interesting is she's never really accepted at court. She really, really isn't.

[Kate Lister]

No.

[Dr. David Taylor]

And I mean, I think she leans into that in some ways. I think perhaps she has no choice but to lean into. That goes back to what I said before about her mischievousness, her perceived wildness, the fact she didn't go in for the kind of formalities and niceties of court. But absolutely she is looked down upon. She's looked upon by many as dirt.

[Kate Lister]

It's a really effective psychological tactic. That is you take the thing that people are trying to shame you for and you absolutely inhabit it and use it against them. And she's very bolshy about where she's come from. But it must have been difficult for her to grow up with that and moving in those circles to have people saying that she came from a dunghill and.

[Dr. David Taylor]

Absolutely. It's also interesting that Charles ennobles a number of his mistresses. I just mentioned Barbara Villiers, she was made Duchess of Cleveland or another one of Charles's perhaps most influential mistress, Louise de Querouaille, she was ennobled too, as a duchess. So Duchess of Portsmouth, whereas Nell was never given a title. She was never given a title. I think that's also very telling. And she had to Work very hard, from what we know, to secure titles and recognition for the two sons that she had with the king who were eventually given. Her elder son was eventually made an earl, but she had to work very hard on that. I think it's really, again, very telling that she was never given a title. She never gained that kind of recognition.

[Kate Lister]

Probably not helped by the fact as well that she was an actress. Like today we meet famous actors and actresses and you might well faint and pass out. It's almost like a God has walked into the room. You're like, oh, my God, he's a famous person. That's not how actresses were viewed when they first took to the stage, was it?

[Dr. David Taylor]

Not at all. So they were very new. This is something not seen before.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, whose idea was that? Who? I mean, you know, hurrah. But who said it was okay for actresses to go on the stage?

[Dr. David Taylor]

That's a great question. One story has it that Charles comes, you know, back, he's restored, he's on the throne in 1660, he's irrepressibly horny, and therefore he wants to see women on stage.

[Kate Lister]

It's losing its nobility, as you're talking.

[Dr. David Taylor]

I'm sure it's part of that. But the simple fact was that lots of other European countries had long permitted women to perform on the public stage. Women had performed at court, so not professional actresses, earlier in the 17th century at the courts of James and of Charles I. So England is a bit late to the party here. And it seems just to start happening at the very late in 1660, as these theatres reopen. And I think one reason it's happening is simply that they're trying to remake theatre on the hoof.

[Kate Lister]

That makes sense.

[Dr. David Taylor]

They've not got much to work with. People haven't been writing plays for a generation. People haven't been acting in London for a long time. So it just feels like an opportunity for something new to happen. And so we get these women performing on stage. The first recorded example is December 1660, where an actress plays Desdemona in Othello. It's not until 1662 that there's a kind of royal proclamation that actually mentions that actresses are allowed to perform on stage by that time. They've been doing so for a very, very long time. So they're these pioneering women. But to go back to your question of how they were seen, they were seen, on the one hand as novelties. They were entrancing. There was something completely new. And the number of actresses who became mistresses of fairly notable men that bears that out. But at the same time, these compelling presences publicly, almost celebrities, I think you could call them some of the first celebrities in England. They were also reviled. So to give you one example, one of the first actresses, Rebecca Marshall, mid performance in 1667, she stops on stage because a man in the audience is calling out, calling the actresses rude names, probably words like whore. Oh, and she calls him out. She stops the performance and she calls him out.

[Kate Lister]

Go on, lass. Right.

[Dr. David Taylor]

And chastises him for insulting her and her fellow actresses in this way. That same man hires ruffians to assault Rebecca Marshall in the street. And these ruffians rub excrement into her hair and onto her face.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. David Taylor]

So that's how vicious things could get for these actresses.

[Kate Lister]

That is wild. Wow.

[Dr. David Taylor]

That's how much prejudice and discrimination they faced because they were seen, Kate. They were seen as little better than prostitutes. This misogynistic logic was that there's no real difference between paying to watch a woman perform before you're on a stage in a public theater and paying to have a woman perform for you in a private room. That was the logic.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with David and Nell after the short break.

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This podcast is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics, presenting on Swift Horses, starring Daisy Edgar Jones, Jacob Elordi, Will Poulter, Diego Calva and Sasha Calle. Muriel and her husband Lee are beginning a bright new life in California when he returns from the Korean War. But their newfound stability is upended by the arrival of Lee's charismatic brother, Julius, a wayward gambler with a secret past. A dangerous love triangle quickly forms when Julius takes off in search of the young card cheat he's fallen for. Muriel's longing for something more propels her into a secret life of her own, gambling on racehorses and exploring a love she never dreamed possible. On Swift horses. Opens April 25th. Only in theaters. Get tickets now at onswifthorses.com Our Skin Tells a story.

[Holly Fry]

Join me, Holly Fry, and a slate of incredible guests as we are all inspired by their journeys with psoriasis. Along with these uplifting and candid personal histories, we take a step back into the bizarre and occasionally poisonous history of our skin and how we take care of it. Whether you're looking for inspiration on your own skincare journey or are curious about these sometimes strange history of how we treat our skin, you'll find genuine, empathetic, transformative conversations here on Our Skin. Listen to Our skin on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kate Lister]

So it's really complex, isn't it? On one hand you've got this like, they are admired. People are really excited to go and see him. Samuel Pepys certainly lost his shit about it, didn't he? He was ridiculous in that way that only Samuel Pepys can. When he goes to see the actresses, people are dead excited. But also there is this kind of like, ugh, these are just nasty women. These are cheap women.

[Dr. David Taylor]

That's absolutely right. That sometimes we tend to see attraction, repulsion as opposites. But in lots of ways they come, I think, in the way that people, and I say people, rich, affluent, powerful men are responding to these actresses. And Pepys is one example of, you know, affluent men who go backstage who feel it's their rights, their entitlement to go backstage, into the dressing rooms, to go and watch these actresses dress and undress, essentially. So there's a kind of erotic peel to be able to just wander backstage. So there's no privacy for these women. Even when they're off stage, they're still performing. Okay? They've got no choice but to perform.

[Kate Lister]

This is really the history of sex work. This is how sex workers are still to this very day are caught in this very complex that at one hand they're eroticized and people are fascinated by them, but also attracting a lot of hate and scorn. And it's. God, you'd need a psychologist to try and pick that one apart. But you're absolutely right. It's this dual side of revulsion and also attraction.

[Dr. David Taylor]

Absolutely. And I mean, some of the satires, some of the attacks directed at Nell are utterly vile. I mean, they are. They're staggering by any standards, including today's standards. I mean, I could read you one if you'll let me.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, do it.

[Dr. David Taylor]

This is a short four line kind of epigram that was circulating certainly at court as lots of these kind of scurrilous satires were circulating in manuscript. And it becomes later known as on Nelly's picture and it reads, she was so exquisite a whore that in the belly of her mother, she turned her cunt right before her father fucked them both together. So in other words, what this is saying is, shit. She was a whore before she was unborn, and she was such a whore before she was unborn. This unborn child turned her own vagina so that her father, when he was having sex with her mother, was also having sex with the unborn Nell. That's how vicious, that's how misogynistic Things were. I mean, that's what Nell was facing and facing on a daily basis.

[Kate Lister]

I feel like I need to go and sniff some Dettol or something.

[Dr. David Taylor]

That was horrendous, isn't it?

[Kate Lister]

Like when you said it's really bad, I thought like, oh, yeah, go on then. Restoration guys bring it at me. But that's horrendous.

[Dr. David Taylor]

They could be so vile and so vicious and these things, these little poems circulated as kind of forms of scandal and gossip and hand to hand. And Nell must have known about things like this. She would have absolutely. Wouldn't surprise me if people had said these things to her face, quite frankly.

[Kate Lister]

When does she get her first gig on the stage then? How does Nell go from possibly being born in a brothel? We're not sure, but obscure, very working class origins, to being one of the first actresses on the stage? How does she even get the gig?

[Dr. David Taylor]

Yeah, again, from what we know. What we do know is that she started her kind of career in the theatre, not on stage, but off it. She started as an orange seller. So selling oranges? Yes, to the audience. I mean, orange sellers themselves had a. Had a reputation for being also sex workers.

[Kate Lister]

I've heard that, yeah. How old is she?

[Dr. David Taylor]

She's probably 12 or 13, depending on she's born. She's very, very young. Okay. By 1665, when she's 14 or 15, she's acting on stage, probably only in small parts. It's in 1665 that she is noticed by someone like Pepys. Then the theatres are shut for a period during the Great Plague. The plague hits London in 1665, lasts into 1666, wipes out a quarter, perhaps as much as a third of London's population. And throughout this time, the theatres are closed. When the theatres reopen again late in 1666, Nell suddenly becomes a star. And she's a star in comedies, particularly comic plays are what she's best at. That's her forte, isn't it? That's exactly. It's her forte. So at that stage people start to write plays for her.

[Kate Lister]

Well, that's when you know you've made it, I think, isn't it?

[Dr. David Taylor]

Exactly. That's when you know you've made it. So that John Dryden, who will eventually become Poet Laureate, almost certainly writes perhaps Nell's biggest hit, a play called Secret Love for Her. And in that Nell plays this character Florimel, who is pursued by this libertine man called Celadon, a man who just isn't remotely interested in monogamy. And this is a particular character type in Restoration comedy. You see it again and again and again. These libertine men, all they want to do is pursue their own promiscuous appetites. Women almost always being the collateral cost. What's wonderful about the character of Florimel, the part that not only Nell Gwynne played, but was almost certainly written for her. What's wonderful about that part is that. Is that she doesn't take any nonsense at all. And she's more than a match for Celadon to the extent that Celadon, quite frankly, doesn't quite know whether he's coming or going towards the end of the play. In the final act of the play, she comes on stage dressed in man's clothes.

[Kate Lister]

Shocking.

[Dr. David Taylor]

And she then proceeds, more or less, to impersonate the form of libertine masculinity that Celadon himself performs. And she encounters Celadon. And Celadon has two women on either army. She outmans Celadon effectively and wins these two women off him, to his amazement.

[Kate Lister]

See, that's funny. That is funny.

[Dr. David Taylor]

Before eventually revealing herself. And the play concludes with Florimel and Celadon kind of getting together, agreeing to be a couple, but also, interestingly, not a kind of conventional couple. They say they won't use man and wife. They won't use those terms. They don't like those terms. Those terms will make a. A relationship goes stale and they're dull. So this is the kind of part that Nell was playing. Parts that were feisty, parts that showed a kind of independence. Parts are basically in which a woman is not prepared to take any shit from a man, more or less. And Dryden, having had a success with Nell in Secret Love, wrote another play then, An Evening's Love Again, with Nell playing the same kind of woman again opposite an actor called Charles Hart, who was, we also think was probably her lover, a much older man who also perhaps helped to train Nell as an actress. But Charles Hart and Nell became this incredible double act, a kind of box office hit of a double act, with Hart playing these rakish men and Nell playing these independent, clever, witty women who would better those rakish men.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. So we think that this Charles Hart person may have been her first lover. We just have to remind ourselves she's probably only about 14 at this point. It's just such a mess, isn't it? But the other thing is, I'm not defending this, guys, but just to give a bit of context to this, Nell is in an insanely precarious situation. Isn't she? Financially?

[Dr. David Taylor]

Exactly. She is. And it's becoming a mistress for someone like Nell and for many of her fellow actresses was a means of security, a means of gaining security. Security financially. Security in lots of ways, lifestyle ways. Security also from attacks of the kind that I described earlier of someone simply throwing excrement in your face in the street, or the kind of poems or.

[Kate Lister]

Just regular assaults that imagine these women would have been thought of as easy game.

[Dr. David Taylor]

It provides a real level of security, a level of security and of prosperity that these women could not possibly otherwise have dreamt of. And these men did look after their mistresses. Nell was given a house to live in. She was given, by the mid-1670s, a very, very generous pension. That's pension. Not in the sense that we'd use it now, but an annual allowance. An annual allowance by the court of 4,000. And then it was increased to £5,000. That's a huge sum of money. Okay, so she lives in a house given to her by the king in Pall Mall, a new house. She lives very lavishly. And she's able to host these incredible soirees. Now, that is something that somewhat of Nell's upbringing. An alcoholic mother, perhaps, a father imprisoned for debt, a sister who'd been imprisoned for theft, never seems to have learned to read or write. It's not something that somewhat of Nell's upbringing could have hoped for in her wantivist dreams. So it gives her an unbelievable kind of security and prosperity.

[Kate Lister]

I've often thought about this. Was there any other means or career or anything open to a woman from Nell's kind of background that would mean that she could have eventually ended up where she did, and I can't possibly being an actress. But even then you'd still need a man there to kind of protect. Would they ever have married her? Is a mistress as good as Nell could have got? Would they ever have married her?

[Dr. David Taylor]

A mistress is as good as Nell could have got. Yeah, absolutely. A mistress is as good as Nell could have got. The history of the actress. Once you get into the 18th century, you do get occasions where aristocrats marry actresses.

[Kate Lister]

Sometimes they do, don't they?

[Dr. David Taylor]

They do, exactly. But not at this stage. Absolutely not at this stage. I mean, Charles isn't going to marry Nell. He won't even give Nell a title, as I said before. So mistress is really as much as Nell could have hoped for. And the word mistress has a slightly different meaning for us today than it would there. That to be a mistress of the King is to be someone who is acknowledged and recognized, who has a kind of deal. It is a big deal and it comes with money, it comes with recognition, it comes with property. And indeed, Nell gained more and more property as her life with the King went on. It meant her children became part of a kind of aristocracy, ultimately, her eldest son being a noble, as I said. So it's a kind of official position in the way that we might find peculiar to think about. It's something recognized.

[Kate Lister]

Do we know when she met Charlie Boye? Him thirsting after actresses on the stage. When did Nell and Charles meet?

[Dr. David Taylor]

Really good question. So we can't be certain. It must be by 1669, probably not much time before that. I mean, she has a second lover after Charles Hart, Charles Sackville, the lord Buckhurst in 1667. But by 1669, she's definitely with Charles. It seems to be that the Duke of Buckingham, one of Charles's chief ministers, probably pushed Nell forward as a mistress. Again, these things were kind of organized and probably pushed Nell forward as a mistress for the King, precisely to try and weaken the influence of other mistresses, probably in particular Barbara Villiers. So Nell gets pushed forward as mistress. She's certainly the King's mistress by 1669, because she's pregnant. She's pregnant with the King's child, a son who will be called Charles.

[Kate Lister]

That's the aim, really. If you're the mistress, get up the duff and get up the duff fast, Right?

[Dr. David Taylor]

Absolutely.

[Kate Lister]

Because then there's a baby and he has to care for the baby, acknowledge the baby.

[Dr. David Taylor]

Well, I mean, he doesn't have to, does he?

[Kate Lister]

Actually, you hope he does.

[Dr. David Taylor]

He does in some cases, with his illegitimate children, it takes him longer to recognise them, but generally by this point. So their first son is born in 1670 and is recognised. In fact, Nell's former lover, Lord Buckhurst, is one of the godparents, along with the Duke of Buckingham, who almost certainly helped her arrange Nell's arrival as a royal mistress. So it means a lot for her to be pregnant. Also shows Charles virility.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, because his wife never had any. He's just raising this army of illegitimate children. And his poor wife never actually gets pregnant, does she?

[Dr. David Taylor]

She gets pregnant. She gets pregnant three times between 1666 and 1669. So just before Nell becomes mistress, all of those miscarry even worse. And she's been married to the King, you know, by the time Nell comes on the scene for getting on for a decade. So by that point, I think most people have accepted that she's never going to be able to give the king a legitimate heir. But obviously Charles's virility is therefore called into question. But when Charles is impregnating his mistresses, then his virility cannot be questioned.

[Kate Lister]

Do we know what Charles and Nell's relationship was like? Did they get along? Was it happy times?

[Dr. David Taylor]

I think it must have been happy times, because otherwise once she was the King's mistress in 1669. She stayed one of his mistresses all the way through to his death in 1685. And at least one story has it that one of the last things that Charles said on his deathbed to his brother James, Duke of York, his heir, who had gone to become King James ii, one of the last things he said to his brother was take care of poor Nell. So I'd like to think that's true. I'd like to think that he's thinking that's true about Nell, and that's borne out in the sense that James ii, when he does become king, actually continues Nell's pensions, they're not stopped, they're continued. So he does look after Nell.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with David and Nell after this.

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This podcast is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics presenting on Swift Horses starring Daisy Edgar Jones, Jacob Elordi, Will Poulter, Diego Calva and Sasha Calle. Muriel and her husband Lee are beginning a bright new life in California when he returns from the Korean War, but their newfound stability is upended by the arrival of Lee's charismatic brother, Julius, a wayward gambler with a secret past. A dangerous love triangle quickly forms when Julius takes off in search of the young card cheat he's fallen for. Muriel's longing for something more propels her into a secret life of her own, gambling on racehorses and exploring a love she never dreamed possible on Swift horses. Opens April 25th. Only in theaters. Get tickets now at onswifthorses.com Our Skin.

[Holly Fry]

Tells a Story Join me, Holly Fry, and a slate of incredible guests as we are all inspired by their journeys with psoriasis. Along with these uplifting and candid personal histories, we take a step back into the bizarre and occasionally poisonous history of our skin and how we take care of it. Whether you're looking for inspiration on your own skincare journey or are curious about the sometimes strange history of how we treat our skin, you'll find genuine, empathetic, transformative conversations here on Our Skin. Listen to Our skin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kate Lister]

The funny thing about the Situation. You gotta try and, like, imagine it. I just can't. Like, what would it have been like to exist in this environment? It's not like Charles had one mistress and just one mistress alone. He had a whole fleet of them. And they would hang out together and, like, play cards together and move in the same circles as one another and, like, literally be in competition to try and, like, I don't know what, shag the king, see him that night. It's such a weird setup.

[Dr. David Taylor]

It's such a weird setup. Made even more weird by the fact you've got these key political players in Charles's court who are trying to make sure that one mistress is. Is more prominent than the other because the mistresses were seen to be influencing the king. That was one of the major criticisms of Charles ii, was that ultimately he was being swayed by his mistresses. The Earl of Rochester, John Wilmot, a famous poet.

[Kate Lister]

That's scallywag.

[Dr. David Taylor]

Well, exactly. So he. I mean, exactly. Talk about men who can't keep it in their pants. He writes a satire about the king, which actually, rather hilariously, he inadvertently gives to the king and is banished from court because of it. He gives a copy to the king, but in it, Rochester says of the king, nor are his high desires above his strength. His scepter and his prick are of a length, and she. She may sway the one who plays with the other. The mistresses can sway the king. Okay, that's also a major concern publicly about the king's role is, well, these women who are so important to his life, exactly what influence are they having? I mean, it's especially the case. Nell actually comes off relatively well in this respect because she's English and she's Protestant. And this is a time of real religious tensions. Whereas the king's most powerful mistress, the Duchess of Portsmouth, is French and Catholic. Which is why, famously, one of the famous scenes of Nell's life is when her coach is accosted by a mob, probably during a period of history that we call the exclusion crisis, where there was real fears of a kind of the country turning Catholic and an attempt to exclude James, Duke of York, the King's brother and heir, from the throne because he was Catholic. This mob surrounds the coach of Nell Gwyn. And she leans out and she says, don't worry, I'm the Protestant whore. The idea being that I'm not the Duchess of Portsmouth. I'm not French, I'm not Catholic. Which also shows how kind of mischievously Nell would lean into the kind of aspects of the reputation that we've discussed, but she's always competing with all these other mistresses. We know of one occasion where Barbara Villiers, Duchess of Cleveland, insults her, is rude to her in some way, and Nell claps her on the shoulder and turns her around and says, clearly, women of the same trade can't get along. And it's a brilliant way of taking down Barbara Villiers several pegs by saying, look, we're no different. Why do you think you're in any way better than me? I love Nell.

[Kate Lister]

I love her so much. I've also read, and I'm not sure if this is true, but one of the reasons that she was so popular, because she had a great PR team, people loved her. But one of the reasons might have been because she wasn't that politically ambitious. I don't know how true that is.

[Dr. David Taylor]

I think that's true. Certainly there's a truth to it in that, compared to some of the other mistresses, she wasn't really acting politically in the way that someone like Louise de Kerouay, the Duchess of Portsmouth, was certainly working politically, or Barbara Villiers, Duchess of Cleveland. She was also clearly, in some ways, trying to influence Charles, or other people were trying to influence Charles through her. That doesn't seem much to have been the case with Nell. And so I think she probably would have been reassuring. Yeah, in those terms, that she wasn't someone who had a kind of particular political agenda in play.

[Kate Lister]

You can sort of understand. I mean, it would never, ever, ever happen today. But you can see how somebody who wasn't elected and has no political background rising to become the advisor to somebody who, you know, the rightful heir, somebody who exerts that much power and they absolutely shouldn't. They're just really there because they're their. Their best friend. They can be very unpopular.

[Dr. David Taylor]

Exactly. And this is a king also, I should add, who has a troubled relationship with Parliament. His father had a terrible relationship with Parliament.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, he's got to be very careful, doesn't he?

[Dr. David Taylor]

And the son has a terrible relationship with Parliament, too. His biggest problem is his lack of money. He's a very poor king, you know, he looks across the English Channel to the likes of his cousin, Louis xiv. Staggeringly wealthy, and he can only dream of that kind of wealth and power. And in fact, then Charles is being subsidised by Louis XIV.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. Didn't know that.

[Dr. David Taylor]

There's a secret treaty in 1670 that Charles signs, and in return for a lot of money, over £200,000 a year, that's a huge sum of money at the time.

[Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Dr. David Taylor]

Charles says that he will convert the country to Catholicism and announce his own Catholicism. Now, of course, Charles never does that. I mean, Charles converts to Catholicism on his deathbed. Had that secret treaty been known, you would have had another civil war. There's no way that Charles could possibly have survived that. So it's a time where there's still huge political and religious tensions. All of this, of course, the fact that Charles is so poor makes it still more remarkable that he's giving Nell four or five grand a year.

[Kate Lister]

I know. Just stop shagging all these very expensive women then, you absolute maniac. They seem to have a good relationship. They seem to be on top, bantering terms. And they have a few children together. And as you said, he does legitimize them. Well played, Nell. The real issue that is gonna face any mistress or any side piece in history ever is when he dies, because that is not good news for a mistress. And in most of these examples, they're not very popular because of the influence that they wield. And then as soon as the king is dead, they are out on their ear. That happens a lot. How does Nell play this?

[Dr. David Taylor]

We can't say for sure how Nell plays it, but you're right that it must have been a very scary moment. A very scary moment.

[Kate Lister]

Madame du Barry out on her ear as soon as the king's on his deathbed. Gone.

[Dr. David Taylor]

Right. But as I said, luckily she's amassed quite a lot of property by the time Charles dies. And she keeps that. She has a pension that Charles heir James, keeps giving to her.

[Kate Lister]

And she's legitimized her children as well, and.

[Dr. David Taylor]

Exactly. She's legitimized her children, and particularly her eldest child, Charles, who is his Earl of Burford. Okay. And who has a kind of relatively successful army career. So she's managed to kind of embed herself. And also, she's got a number of security mechanisms. Now, it's true that all of those, I suppose, the pension, the property, all of those could have been taken away. Away from her, but they're not taken away from her. But of course, the other. The sad thing is that she doesn't outlive Charles very much. She outlives Charles by only two years.

[Kate Lister]

Do we know what happened? I've never been able to get much detail on this. She only made it to 37. Yeah.

[Dr. David Taylor]

The accounts we have say that she died of an apoplexy. Some of the words. She died of something like a stroke at 37. Yes. Now, almost certainly that was related to sexually transmitted disease.

[Kate Lister]

Ah, there we go. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. David Taylor]

So we know, for instance, that Charles II had syphilis or some other sexually transmitted disease by the mid-1670s and that he was passing it to his other mistresses. It seems very likely that Nell also suffered from syphilis. The chances are that the stroke that she died from was an effect of her syphilis in some sense. So ultimately, the kind of the life that she's had and had and had to lead has a serious and an ultimately fatal impact on her health.

[Kate Lister]

Her will still exists, doesn't it?

[Dr. David Taylor]

It does still exist. One of the things it shows, actually, is that her reputation for charity was absolutely deserved. She gives money to various charities, to the poor, for instance. She spent very lavishly. But she also clearly did keep thinking about those who lived the life that she had expected to lead herself. When she was born, she left money.

[Kate Lister]

To get people out of debtors prison, didn't she? And things like that.

[Dr. David Taylor]

Exactly.

[Kate Lister]

And for people in poor houses and like the real destitute people.

[Dr. David Taylor]

Exactly. And again, I wonder whether that bears out the fact that her father had indeed died in a debtors prison. I mean, these debtors prisons were, you know, so that you've, in this period and long after you could be arrested for debt and kept there until your creditors were satisfied. And the conditions of these debtors jails were appalling, utterly appalling places that were utterly unsanitary, in which disease spread very, very fast.

[Kate Lister]

So as a final question then, for this. I just love Nell. I just love her so much. What do you think Nell's legacy is? Because it's very easy to look at her story and think, actually, why are we glamorizing this? She was a working class child, she was clearly abused. There's a lot of nastiness to this story. When you actually look at it. I actually see a lot of power and agency in it. But what do you think this woman's legacy is?

[Dr. David Taylor]

I think there is power and agency in it. I think you've got to think about what choices she had.

[Kate Lister]

Yes.

[Dr. David Taylor]

I think what you can say about Nell is that she seized every opportunity given to her. Yes, she is this working class, illiterate woman and yet she makes a wonderful career for herself in the theatre and then she manages to become one of the King's favorite mistresses.

[Kate Lister]

And stay there.

[Dr. David Taylor]

And stay there. Exactly. And stay there and keep being appreciated and gain recognition for her children. So that she's a woman who's a brilliant, brilliant opportunist. She's also a pioneer. She's absolutely a pioneer that at the time these first actresses such as Nell would have been considered obviously whores. But they were pioneers. They worked incredibly hard. Having to learn multiple roles, having to perform in incredibly hostile environments to make sure they got paid every week to get a name for themselves. So she's a pioneer. Absolutely a pioneer.

[Kate Lister]

Would you say as well that she thought she's one of the first women in comedy, one of the first female comedians?

[Dr. David Taylor]

Absolutely. Pepys says that of her. I think it's her role in Secret Dryden's Secret Love, which I mentioned earlier, that it's the greatest comic performance the world has ever seen. Of course we remember her as one of the king's mistresses, but we must also remember her as an unbelievable pro. At a point when it was really hard to be a pro, then she was absolutely a pioneering comedian. I think you could even argue that the kind of comic part that she became famous for changed comedy and changed the way that women are represented in comedies. I think you could absolutely argue that too.

[Kate Lister]

David, you have been fabulous to talk to. Thank you so much.

[Dr. David Taylor]

My pleasure.

[Kate Lister]

If people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

[Dr. David Taylor]

What I would encourage people to do is to go to a website called r18collive.org. I'm one of a group of scholars who are working on this period of theatre and that's a place to go to find out more about it and especially the wonderful plays by women of this period that we don't. We've completely forgotten about.

[Kate Lister]

Amazing. Thank you so much for coming to talk to us. I've thoroughly enjoyed myself.

[Dr. David Taylor]

Pleasure. Thank you.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for listening and thank you so much to David for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like review and follow along whatever it is that you get your podcasts and as I mentioned in the interview, be sure to check out the two part documentary on history hit TV called Sex and Scandal. Royal Favorites. Episode one looks at George Villiers who is favorite to King James I. And episode two, which David is on, is all about our favorite mama, Nell Gwyn. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to email us to say hello below, then you can do [e-mail] Coming up, we have got the third episode in our miniseries on history's worst footboys and it's Casanova's time to be stepping into the spotlight and we'll be learning what happens on a medieval Wedding Night. This podcast was edited by Tom delaghi and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets the History of Sex Scandal in Society, A podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

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This podcast is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics. Presenting on Swift Horses Starring Daisy Edgar Jones, Jacob Elordi, Will Poulter, Diego Calva and Sasha Calle. Muriel and her husband, Lee are beginning a bright new life in California when he returns from the Korean War, but their newfound stability is upended by the arrival of Lee's charismatic brother, Julius, a wayward gambler with a secret past. A dangerous love triangle quickly forms when Julius takes off in search of the young card sheet he's fallen for. Muriel's longing for something more propels her into a secret life of her own, gambling on racehorses and exploring a love she never dreamed possible on Swift horses. Opens April 25th. Only in theaters. Get tickets now at onswifthorses.com Our Skin.

[Holly Fry]

Tells a Story Join me, Holly Fry, and a slate of incredible guests as we are all inspired by their journeys with psoriasis. Along with these uplifting and candid personal histories, we take a step back into the bizarre and occasionally poisonous history of our skin and how we take care of it. Whether you're looking for inspiration on your own skincare journey or are curious about the sometimes strange history of how we treat our skin, you'll find genuine, empathetic Transformers transformative conversations here on Our Skin. Listen to Our skin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.