Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Episode Summary: "Queer Georgians"
Host: Kate Lister
Guest: Dr. Anthony Delaney
Air Date: September 12, 2025
Episode Overview
In this engaging episode, sex historian Kate Lister and historian Dr. Anthony Delaney (author of "Queer Georgians") pull back the bedsheets on the vibrant and complex experiences of queer people in Georgian Britain. They debunk misconceptions, dissect the language and categories around gender and sexuality of the time, and focus on the fascinating, often misunderstood, story of the Chevalier d’Eon—a French diplomat, soldier, and spy. The discussion challenges present-day projections onto the past and explores the fluid, sometimes perilous ways gender and sexuality played out in the long 18th century.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Language and Labels: Can We Call Them "Queer Georgians"?
[13:26]–[15:41]
- The word "queer," while anachronistic, is used as a practical tool for communicating history effectively; people then didn’t use today’s terminology, but modern historians need such words for clarity.
- Dr. Delaney: “We cannot hold queer histories to a different barrier of proof than we do all the other histories. …We have to communicate the past effectively to a large audience.” (14:00)
- The 18th-century understanding of gender and sexuality was less binary but not necessarily more tolerant.
2. The "Third Sex" and Fluidity in Georgian Britain
[15:41]–[17:58]
- Georgians recognized men, women, and “something else in between”—evidenced by society noting figures like John Lord Hervey.
- Dr. Delaney: “They knew… there was something else in between. …they knew that it wasn't binary.” (15:41)
- However, non-conformity was still harshly punished in men (up to execution for sex between men), while women’s same-sex relationships were less likely to face legal sanction due to misogyny and lack of perceived threat to power.
3. Gender, Power, and the Sexual Double Standard
[17:58]–[21:39]
- Female same-sex relationships could fly under the radar, partly due to societal perceptions and misogyny, as well as the non-threatening position of women.
- For men, same-sex relationships were criminalized, partly due to fears of consolidated power among male elites and societal anxieties about penetration and masculinity.
- Dr. Lister: “I think also it's about penises... it's fear of power… but also it's a misogyny because that's the threat that the gay man poses to the heterosexual man…” (20:16)
4. Mollies, Macaronis, Cock Queens—The Subcultures of Queer Men
[21:39]–[26:55]
- Dr. Delaney explains terms:
- Mollies: Working-class men having sex with other men; not to be confused with the elite macaronis, who were heterosexual.
- Cock Queens: Men (of various classes) living domestically with other men; more effeminate and domestically associated than mollies.
- The Cock Queen, often overlooked, helped shape modern conceptions of domesticity.
- Dr. Delaney: "Queer men, same-sex attracted men, I think, have given us the formulation of how we understand home today. … It was a set of cock queens who did that in the 18th century." (24:14)
5. Reassessing the Chevalier d’Eon—Fact vs. Myth
[29:32]–[53:53]
- Chevalier d’Eon: Born Charles d’Eon de Beaumont (1728), lawyer, diplomat, spy, soldier—an enigmatic figure at the intersection of gender and espionage.
- Popular Myth: The Chevalier was a proto-trans icon, living openly as a woman—often cited as "the earliest recorded trans person."
- Archive-based Reality:
- D’Eon only began appearing in female dress late in life, under duress and royal command, not by personal choice.
- Early rumors about their gender were weaponized during career disputes and calculated smear campaigns by French authorities.
- For many years, lived and presented as a man; only in their 50s was compelled by the French King to dress as a woman to discredit and control them.
- Used both male and female pronouns about themselves; memoirs are a mix of fact and invention.
- Dr. Delaney: "I will be switching pronouns because he referred to himself with female pronouns 55% of the time and male pronouns 45% of the time. I just follow his lead." (31:38)
- D’Eon’s story is less about a "triumphant trans history" and more about a survivor perpetually negotiating imposed identities.
- Dr. Delaney: “She tells us in her own words that she became a girl against my wishes… the gowns that were given to her by Marie Antoinette and the jewelry became … ‘golden chains of my new slavery.’” (51:32)
6. Historical Anxieties and Our Own Projections
[53:53]–[55:51]
- The story of the Chevalier d’Eon illustrates how society has always sought to nail down (and shame) people who don’t fit binaries—a process alive today.
- Dr. Delaney: “…so often are …left short in our history and we're desperate for our history that when we see something, we grasp onto it and we make it make sense to us without having done the primary source material research which, you know, we know as historians, again, it's human nature. We want to be defiant and we want to be triumphant and we want to find ourselves in the past.” (53:43)
- Final reflection: "I am what I am.” Chevalier d’Eon’s words, advocating for respecting diversity without demanding binary answers.
7. Other Notable Figures: Mary Jones, "My Queero"
[56:17]–[58:12]
- Dr. Delaney’s favorite subject is Mary Jones, a Black trans woman and sex worker in 1836 New York.
- Jones was repeatedly arrested but never stopped living as herself, even in the face of violence and ridicule.
- Dr. Delaney: “She gets back up every single time. And that sometimes is all it takes to make history, persevere… she is my queero, my queer hero.” (57:41)
Notable Quotes
- Dr. Delaney [13:59]: “As historians, we constantly use anachronistic terms. …We cannot hold queer histories to a different barrier of proof than we do all the other histories.”
- Kate Lister [20:16]: “Money, power, penises, it's all the same.”
- Dr. Delaney [24:14]: “Queer men…have given us the formulation of how we understand home today. …It was a set of cock queens who did that in the 18th century.”
- Kate Lister [41:25]: “That's a smear campaign, basically, and it's one of the oldest tricks in the book…”
- Dr. Delaney [53:43]: “We so often are…left short in our history and we're desperate for our history that when we see something, we grasp onto it…”
- Chevalier d’Eon (via Dr. Delaney) [55:14]: “I am what I am. I declare that the intention of the Lord Creator in creating this multiplicity and diversity of men and women on this earth has been to render them all equal in the eyes of God and his law.”
Timestamps of Key Segments
| Timestamp | Content | |-------------|--------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:00–06:10 | Introduction; framing the Chevalier d’Eon fencing story | | 11:22–13:26 | Why write about "Queer Georgians"? | | 13:26–15:41 | Debate on terminology: queer/anachronism and categories | | 15:41–17:58 | 18th-century ideas of gender: the "third sex" | | 21:39–26:55 | Subcultural types: Mollies, Cock Queens, Macaronis | | 29:32–53:53 | The real story of the Chevalier d’Eon | | 56:17–58:12 | Dr. Delaney’s favorite: Mary Jones, Black trans sex worker |
Tone & Style
The episode is witty, scholarly, at times irreverent, and unafraid to challenge cherished "heroes" with nuance and primary research. Kate and Anthony banter with warmth and enthusiasm, making complex history accessible and deeply human.
Conclusion
This episode of Betwixt The Sheets acts as a corrective to oversimplified retellings of queer history and asks listeners to embrace the contradictions and messiness of the past. It’s an invitation to see historical figures as they were—complicated, constrained, creative, and, above all, deeply human.
Additional Resource:
Find Dr. Anthony Delaney on the "After Dark" podcast and his book "Queer Georgians: A Hidden History of Lover, Lawbreakers and Homemakers".
This summary covers all the key conversational content and provides clear signposts for those interested in specific figures or themes in the Georgian queer world.