Royal Sex: Catherine the Great

Summary

Royal Sex: Catherine the Great

Podcast: Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Host: Kate Lister
Guest: Virginia Rounding, Author of Catherine the Great: Love, Sex and Power
Release Date: July 18, 2025

Introduction

In this captivating episode of Betwixt The Sheets, host Kate Lister delves deep into the tumultuous and passionate life of Catherine the Great, the longest-reigning empress of Russia. Joined by historian Virginia Rounding, the discussion uncovers the intertwining of Catherine's personal relationships with her political prowess, challenging long-standing myths and shedding light on the enigmatic empress.

Early Life and Marriage to Peter

Catherine the Great, originally named Sophie von Anhalt-Zerbst, was born into the lesser nobility in a small principality that later became part of Germany. At the tender age of 14, she was sent to Russia to marry Peter, the heir to the Russian throne. This arranged marriage was heavily influenced by her mother, Joanna, who had familial connections to Empress Elizabeth of Russia.

Quote:
"Catherine was quite determined that [her conversion to Orthodoxy] wasn't going to stand in her way." – Virginia Rounding [09:20]

Despite the grandeur of their wedding, Catherine and Peter's marriage remained unconsummated for seven years due to their youthful inexperience and uncertainty about their roles.

Struggles in Marriage and the Quest for an Heir

The prolonged lack of intimacy in Catherine and Peter's marriage led to immense pressure from Empress Elizabeth to produce an heir. Peter's reluctance and Catherine's growing desire for personal fulfillment created a tense household dynamic.

Quote:
"After about seven years of desperation, the woman who was in charge of their household finally told Elizabeth... that they don't have sex." – Virginia Rounding [16:52]

Eventually, with the intervention of a young widow employed by Elizabeth, Peter learned to consummate the marriage, leading to the birth of their son, Paul. However, uncertainties lingered about the paternity of Paul, as Catherine had also fallen deeply in love with Sergei Saltykov during this period.

Peter's Brief and Ineffectual Reign

Upon Empress Elizabeth's death in 1761, Peter ascended to the throne but proved to be an ineffective ruler. His inability to navigate the complex political landscape of Russia led to disastrous decisions, including capitulating in the Seven Years' War and dismissing the Orthodox Church's authority.

Quote:
"He [Peter] had no idea what to do or didn't occur to him as supposed to do anything." – Kate Lister [15:06]

Peter's short reign destabilized the Russian court, setting the stage for Catherine's eventual takeover.

Catherine's Coup and Ascension to Power

Recognizing Peter's inadequacies, Catherine, with the support of British Ambassador Sir Charles Hanbury Williams and influential courtiers, orchestrated a bloodless coup. Utilizing her relationships with key figures, including her lover Grigori Arlolf and his brothers in the Guards regiments, Catherine secured her position as Empress.

Quote:
"It's a proper coup. This is petyr, just go over there for a bit, and I'll consolidate more and more power." – Kate Lister [32:20]

Peter's attempt to reclaim power was swiftly quelled, leading to his arrest and subsequent death under mysterious circumstances, officially attributed to a severe hemorrhoid attack.

Catherine's Reign: Policies and Achievements

As Empress, Catherine the Great implemented numerous enlightened reforms. She modernized the Russian legal system, promoted education (especially for girls), and expanded Russian territories, often incorporating loyal subjects from diverse regions.

Quote:
"She was civilizing in a way that subsequent generations might find more difficult, post colonialism and all that kind of thing." – Virginia Rounding [39:13]

Catherine also fostered a cultural renaissance, becoming a patron of the arts and a friend to Enlightenment philosophers like Voltaire and Diderot.

Personal Life and Relationships

Catherine's personal life was as dynamic as her political career. She maintained relationships with several younger men, balancing genuine affection with political strategy. Her most notable relationships include:

• Sergei Saltykov: An early love who may have fathered her son, Paul.
• Stanisław Poniatowski: An educated and elegant courtier who bore her a daughter.
• Grigori Arlov: A devout and ambitious lover who played a pivotal role in her coup.
• Alexander Lanskoy: A beloved young man whose untimely death deeply affected Catherine.

These relationships were often intertwined with her political ambitions, as lovers could serve as valuable allies or, conversely, sources of vulnerability.

Quote:
"She was absolutely devoted to a young man called Alexander Lanskoy... He died young of diphtheria, and she was completely devastated." – Virginia Rounding [46:45]

Catherine's ability to maintain power while indulging in personal relationships underscores her prowess as both a ruler and a woman navigating the complexities of court life.

Debunking Myths: Catherine's Death

A persistent myth claims that Catherine the Great died while engaged in an act of bestiality with a horse. However, Virginia Rounding clarifies that Catherine died of a natural stroke, with no horses involved.

Quote:
"She died of a stroke. There were no horses involved." – Virginia Rounding [47:51]

This rumor likely stems from misogynistic attempts to discredit her formidable reputation, emphasizing the challenges powerful women faced in historical narratives.

Legacy and Final Insights

Catherine the Great's legacy is multifaceted. While often remembered for her numerous affairs, her contributions to Russian statecraft, cultural development, and legal reforms were monumental. Virginia Rounding emphasizes Catherine's self-perception as a servant of Russia and her commitment to Enlightenment ideals.

Quote:
"I think her own epitaph, the fact that she saw herself as a servant of Russia... She was a great civilizing influence." – Virginia Rounding [50:01]

Catherine's blend of personal passion and political acumen makes her a compelling figure in history, challenging simplistic interpretations of her life and reign.

Conclusion

This episode of Betwixt The Sheets offers a nuanced portrayal of Catherine the Great, highlighting her as both a passionate individual and a shrewd leader. By debunking myths and exploring the depth of her relationships and policies, Kate Lister and Virginia Rounding present a comprehensive and engaging narrative of one of history's most intriguing empresses.

Notable Quotes

• "Catherine was quite determined that [her conversion to Orthodoxy] wasn't going to stand in her way." – Virginia Rounding [09:20]
• "After about seven years of desperation, the woman who was in charge of their household finally told Elizabeth... that they don't have sex." – Virginia Rounding [16:52]
• "He [Peter] had no idea what to do or didn't occur to him as supposed to do anything." – Kate Lister [15:06]
• "It's a proper coup. This is petyr, just go over there for a bit, and I'll consolidate more and more power." – Kate Lister [32:20]
• "She was civilizing in a way that subsequent generations might find more difficult, post colonialism and all that kind of thing." – Virginia Rounding [39:13]
• "She was absolutely devoted to a young man called Alexander Lanskoy... He died young of diphtheria, and she was completely devastated." – Virginia Rounding [46:45]
• "She died of a stroke. There were no horses involved." – Virginia Rounding [47:51]
• "I think her own epitaph, the fact that she saw herself as a servant of Russia... She was a great civilizing influence." – Virginia Rounding [50:01]

Further Listening

Tune in to upcoming episodes of Betwixt The Sheets as Kate Lister explores other legendary figures such as Queen Victoria, Marie Antoinette, Cleopatra, and Elizabeth I, unraveling the intertwining of their personal lives with historical impact.

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

Hello everyone, it's me, your host, Kate Lister. I'm just jumping in before the episode to ask you for a little favor. If you are enjoying betwixt, and I hope that you are, we'd love it if you could vote for us for the Listeners Choice Awards at the British Podcast Awards. If you follow the link in the show notes, it should take you to the place you need to go and it would mean the world to us. We were shortlisted last year and the one before that and the one before that. We were so close and it just made us want it even more. I think we can do it this year. Right on with the show.

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[Kate Lister]

Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are you. I am me. And this is Betwixt the sheets. And in case you're new around here, in case you've wandered in. Betwixt the sheets. That sounds like some kind of nice home decorating program. No, you would be wrong. It is not. This is a show about historical smut. And therefore I have to tell you this is an adult podcast book of by adults to other adults about adultery things. And an adult away covering a range adult subjects. You should be an adult too. Do you feel safer? I feel safer. Fair dues. You were warned. Let's do it. It's 1894 and Balaszewski, a Polish author, is hunched over the final pages of his new text. A biograph, Catherine II of Russia. And the final chapter is titled Private Life Favoritism. The segment begins, there is a whole legend in regard to the love affairs of Catherine. We shall try to replace it by a few pages of history. He wrote that quite a while ago now and 100 years after Catherine the Great had died. But it was as true then and it is true now, that her lustful ways will not be contained to a few pages of history. In fact, Catherine's legendary love life has all but eclipsed her skills as a politician and a state leader. Honestly, it's all anyone can talk about. This was a woman who enjoyed a string of younger lovers well into her 60s.

[Virginia Rounding]

Go on, Catherine.

[Kate Lister]

And you'd hardly bat an eyelid. An emperor doing such things. But an empress? Well, we can't have that now, can we?

[Virginia Rounding]

What do you look for in a man?

[Kate Lister]

Oh, money, of course.

[Virginia Rounding]

You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my.

[Kate Lister]

Boss needs by just turning a knob.

[Virginia Rounding]

And pushing the button. Now.

[Kate Lister]

Era.

[Virginia Rounding]

Now. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

[Kate Lister]

Goodness. What beautiful dime. Goodness has nothing to do with it, dearie. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, History of Sex, Scandal and society with me, Kate Lister. Catherine the Great is the longest reigning empress of Russia, clocking up an impressive 34 years and four months where she held court over Russia and its annexed lands. And if you've dabbled in history at all, I imagine you've heard a thing or two about this woman, most notably her fatal equestrian pursuit. But how much of that is really true? Well, today I am joined by Virginia Rounding, who is gonna help us get to know this remarkable woman and the rumors that surround her a little bit better. Saddle up betwixt us. We're heading off to St. Petersburg. Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Virginia Rounding. How are you doing?

[Virginia Rounding]

I'm doing very well, thank you, Kate. Nice to be here.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, it's fabulous to have you here. You are? Well, you're the author of Lots and Lots of Books. But the one that we're focusing in on today is Catherine the Great. Love, Sex and Power. So, as a starter question, can I ask you, do you remember when you first heard about Catherine the Great and what was it that made you want to write this book?

[Virginia Rounding]

I guess I first heard about her when I was studying Russian language and literature years ago. Of course, she features not necessarily herself, but she's obviously influenced authors. So she turns up as a sort of recollection of various old people in War and Peace and that kind of thing. So I was aware of her existence. And actually I didn't think. It wasn't originally my idea to write a book on her. I'd written one on French courtesans and was looking around for someone to do a biography on. And it was suggested by my agent that I ought to try Catherine. And actually I thought, well, she has been done before quite a lot. But there was a suggestion that it was time for another woman to take a look at her. Isabelle de Madriagrad has written a very scholarly work on Catherine. In many ways it can't be surpassed. But it was thought it was time for now that the attitude towards women and women rulers and women having lovers is quite different, that Catherine needed to be reassessed by maybe a more sympathetic eye in terms of her personal life. So then I got into her and found her absolutely fascinating.

[Kate Lister]

So that already suggests that one thing that accompanies Catherine the Great is a whole lot of rumor and a whole lot of stigma and a whole lot of judgment. Would you say that that's fair?

[Virginia Rounding]

Absolutely. And a lot of it comes from the very fact she was a successful woman ruler, didn't appear to need a man to help her to rule, and didn't conform to the ways that an 18th century woman was expected to be.

[Kate Lister]

I love her already.

[Virginia Rounding]

Whereas if she'd been a man and it would have been no problem to have a string of lovers and that kind of thing, it was what they did.

[Kate Lister]

That would have just been a slow Tuesday, wouldn't it? But no, it can't be a woman.

[Virginia Rounding]

Think of Louis XIV and 15th. That's what they did. So.

[Kate Lister]

So let's take it right back to Catherine's origin story, because I'm not sure I know this much about it. Where did she come from? Was she destined for greatness from the beginning?

[Virginia Rounding]

No, not at all. She was one of the many young women born into a small principality, what we'd now term as Germany. Then it was a whole collection of different little courts and she was One of those young women born into the very lesser nobility in sort of Prussia and the areas that subsequently became Germany. So it would have been expected her only route in life was marriage to somebody. And, yes, her family would be looking around for somebody, probably another sort of prince minor, count sort of thing. Certainly wasn't expected. She would end up running an empire that came about sort of in an unexpected sort of way, through personal family connections and then later through her taking control herself.

[Kate Lister]

What was her real name? Her name can't have been Catherine the Great. I mean, that's obnoxious.

[Virginia Rounding]

Her name was Sophie. It was changed to Ekaterina when she became Russian Orthodox, when she'd already moved to Russia as the prospective fiance of. Of the heir to the throne, Peter.

[Kate Lister]

And what was her family name? So it was Katarina.

[Virginia Rounding]

Well, she was sort of Sophie von Anhalt Sebst, which is where she came from.

[Kate Lister]

Okay. What was the family like? Were they on the make? Were they a good family? Did she have a nice childhood?

[Virginia Rounding]

She had a very reserved, slightly elderly father who was serious Lutheran. She was born in Stettin, a small town, and he became the governor of Zebst, where they moved and had a small castle to live in. And he was very upright, concerned about doing the right thing. He had a much younger wife, Joanna, who was rather flighty in certain respects. And it was partly through Joanna that the whole trip to Russia came about, because the Empress Elizabeth, who was the empress of Russia at the time, had in her youth been engaged to be married to an elder brother of Joanna, but he died quite young of smallpox. But Elizabeth retained this romantic notion throughout her life. It would have been wonderful. So they had this family connection that Joanna played on. And so Catherine. Well, I call her Catherine for ease. But Sophie at the time was one of those girls that Elizabeth would have heard about when she was looking around for someone to marry and, of course, produce future sons to marry her heir, Peter, her nephew that she'd chosen herself. He was the grandson of Peter the Great. And so Sophie and her mother were invited to Russia to see if she was going to be a suitable person for Peter to be betrothed to.

[Kate Lister]

That's a lot of pressure.

[Virginia Rounding]

Absolutely, absolutely. It's a very common thing. In later years, when Catherine was the empress herself, she did just the same kind of things for her son Paul. She got her envoys around Europe to look for likely girl and would invite them with her mother to be tested out.

[Kate Lister]

How old would she have been?

[Virginia Rounding]

She was about 13, 14 when this letter arrived. Yeah, she was 14 when she arrived, but clearly ambitious right from the outset she was determined to make a go of it.

[Kate Lister]

How old was Peter? Let's talk a little bit about him. Who was he?

[Virginia Rounding]

He was just a bit older than Catherine. They had met as children briefly through family visits. He was an orphan. His mother and father had both died when he was fairly young and he was a direct descendant of Peter the Great. But it obviously never occurred to him as a child that he might be called upon to take on this mantle. He rather liked the smaller life of a court in Holstein, where he thought he'd be a duke there when he grew up. So it was a bit of a shock to him to have to go off to Russia. And of course, when Sophie first arrived, he was delighted just to have some company.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, bless.

[Virginia Rounding]

As he was lonely, he hoped she'd be something of an ally against the Russian court. But it turned out she was sort of on the wrong side as far as he was concerned.

[Kate Lister]

Why do you think they picked. I say they. I'm going to assume it wasn't Peter at the age of 14 who was making the final decision. Why do you think they picked Sophie, Catherine to do this?

[Virginia Rounding]

I think partly it was a sentimental reason because Elizabeth had this connection to the family through her dead fiance. So Elizabeth was a very romantic with a small ass, sentimental woman throughout her life. So that would be part of it. It would be. Was she healthy? Was she a sort of good stock? Would she be able to produce as. Would she be biddable? Would she be prepared to fit in, do as she was told? I think nothing much more complicated than that, really.

[Kate Lister]

No, probably not. So obviously she is of good stock and she is healthy and they do get married. What kind of event was it? Was it a big celebration?

[Virginia Rounding]

It was, yes. I mean, there were several celebrations that took place once she'd been sort of approved. She had to convert to Orthodoxy from Lutheranism, which could have been a big stumbling block. Her father didn't like the idea, but Catherine was quite determined that it wasn't going to stand in her way. So she studied really hard, she learned the church Slavonic that she had to say everything in when she was received. So the first big ceremony was her admission into the Orthodox Church with lots of pomp. And then there was a betrothal and then the actual wedding about nine months later. Yeah, was huge. Processions, carriages, lots of wearing of heavy crowns, meals, a whole panoply of things. People everywhere being dressed. Absolutely exhausting. At the end of it, she's conducted to the marital chamber. And so is Peter. They're both divested and dressed in sort of nightwear. She is put into bed and then wonders what happens because Peter has disappeared at this point.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, no.

[Virginia Rounding]

And so they're sitting in the bed thinking, well, my mother told me various things were going to happen to me now what is it and where is he? And eventually one of her servants came in and said, oh, Peter's having his supper. He'll be along in a bit. He arrived, climbed into bed, said, oh, wouldn't the servants think it funny if they could see us in bed together? And lay down and went to sleep. So.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, dear. Okay.

[Virginia Rounding]

Maybe he had no idea what to do or didn't occur to him as supposed to do anything. And Catherine turned over and went to sleep as well. Oh, did anyone.

[Kate Lister]

This sounds like Marie Antoinette and her husband Louis. Just nobody had told them. What did somebody tell them what to do in the end?

[Virginia Rounding]

Not for about seven years.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, my God. Oh, wow.

[Virginia Rounding]

I mean, similar to Marie Antoinette. Yeah. Indeed they didn't. Elizabeth was very concerned. She wanted Catherine to produce as soon as she could. Obviously that's what she was there for. And she kept bullying the various people in charge of Catherine's household because they lived in a separate wing of the various palaces they were in. Make them make sure they embed together, don't let anybody distract them, keep them together. And she got concerned. Maybe Catherine was riding a horse too much because she was a very good horsewoman and fond. Maybe that was stopping her conceiving strange idea. But anyway. But no one seemed to have told Peter what to do.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, dear.

[Virginia Rounding]

He enjoyed particularly playing with toy soldiers. I mean, he has been portrayed throughout history and largely because of Catherine's memoirs, as a complete duff. But actually he wasn't. He was a cultured young man. He loved music. He was very attached to his Lutheran upbringing. He found the whole Russian court system very hard to deal with, but he wasn't an idiot.

[Kate Lister]

And they're so young.

[Virginia Rounding]

Yeah, absolutely. Very young. And the longer it went on, this sort of not knowing what to do maritally but being pressed into something, the harder it became in a way, for us to see that. But yes, at one point he really got into playing with toy soldiers after they'd gone to bed together and she would join in because it made him happy. So they kept all this stuff under the bed and. And would get it out and play with it, and I quickly hide it when anyone came in. It is sweet, but it didn't lead to an heir no.

[Kate Lister]

Playing with toy soldiers does not tend to lead to an heir. Oh, dear. So did they have any children then, or was this an uncontromated marriage?

[Virginia Rounding]

No. Eventually they did. After about seven years of desperation, the woman who was in charge of their household finally told Elizabeth. Actually, the reason they haven't had a child is they don't have sex. Ah, right. They don't know what to do. So at this point, Elizabeth decided they had to actually do something. So she managed to employ a young widow at the court to go and teach Peter what to do. He rather got into it, actually, once she did.

[Kate Lister]

Wait a minute.

[Virginia Rounding]

What?

[Kate Lister]

What did she do? What did she do?

[Virginia Rounding]

Well, she obviously explained what you had to do in bed, and she was an experience. So he just lay there and thought, oh, right, this is very nice.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Virginia Rounding]

Meanwhile, Catherine had had her own sexual awakening because she'd actually fallen in love with a courtier called Sergei Saltykov, who was quite an experienced philanderer, probably. I think he's.

[Kate Lister]

How old was she?

[Virginia Rounding]

Oh, by now she was about 20. This went on for a long time, this unconstummated bit. But, yeah, in her sort of late teens, early 20s, she met Xiage. She fell quite madly in love, passionately, because it was the first time she'd actually experienced proper physical love.

[Kate Lister]

And he was a bit of a wrong un, was he?

[Virginia Rounding]

He was ready to take advantage of a situation.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Virginia Rounding]

He could see she was there. He obviously thought she was beautiful, he liked her. But also, he was probably also being encouraged by people in the entourage to do this because they were getting to a point of thinking, we've got to present Elizabeth with an heir. She won't inquire too closely how it turned up. Oh, so when she did, actually, she had two miscarriages before she had a successful pregnancy. That must have been very hard to. No support from anybody. When she finally delivered a son, Paul. It could have been the son of either of them, because Peter had managed to consummate marriage with her by then, after his lessons from the beautiful young widow. So no one is absolutely sure whether the man who subsequently became Paul I. Was Peter's son, which he believed himself to be, or Sergey's.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Virginia after this short break.

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[Kate Lister]

Is Peter emperor by this point? Is this the empress is running around having affairs, or is it?

[Virginia Rounding]

No, he's still. This is still. While Elizabeth is the empress. So they're a grand duke, grand duchess. Peter is starting to get interested in other women.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, is he? Okay, so it's like a whole world has opened up to him now.

[Virginia Rounding]

Yeah, yeah. He never went in for a great many of them, but he fell in love with a woman called Elizabeth Vransova, who was also at the court, though I think that started fairly soon after Paul was born.

[Kate Lister]

Was it a happy marriage? It's difficult to say, isn't it, when they're arranged like this and it's all about political alliances and especially looking back at this distance. But did they get on? Were they happy together to begin with?

[Virginia Rounding]

They did to some extent because it was them against the power structures, the older people. So they had the young court, as it was called, the Grand Duke and the Grand Duchess, the two of them and all their entourage. So in the sense of their having that separate establishment and constantly feeling under threat from Elizabeth and all the power play going on. They were allies, at least to begin with, and they sort of got on. Peter had hoped Catherine would be more of an ally than she turned out to be, because she was determined she wasn't going to suffer from his inadequacies. So she could see pretty fairly early on that he wasn't going to be a brilliant occupier of the throne himself without a lot of propping up. So she didn't mind the idea of propping him up, but she wasn't going to let him wreck the whole enterprise. So she was building up her own power circle, her own circle of influence. She's smart, isn't she? She's very smart. She's smarter than him, which he's aware of, so that doesn't help.

[Kate Lister]

So she's not supposed to have ended up being the Empress of Russia, then?

[Virginia Rounding]

Absolutely not, no.

[Kate Lister]

How did this happen, then?

[Virginia Rounding]

Well, sort of gradually, when the British played their part, in the sense that.

[Kate Lister]

Of course we did. Sorry about that, everyone.

[Virginia Rounding]

She became very close to the British ambassador, Sir Charles Hanbury Williams, who in a way, was her political mentor.

[Kate Lister]

Is he nice? Do we like him or is he a boo character?

[Virginia Rounding]

We like him on the whole. We like him, yeah. He became very influential after the birth of Paul. I mean, for one thing. I mean, several things came into play. Clearly, after the birth of her son, Catherine had a very hard time. She had probably postnatal depression, which is that he was depressed. Yeah. Oh, wow. It was increased by the fact she was left on her own, pretty much. The child was taken away and raised by Elizabeth.

[Kate Lister]

Oh.

[Virginia Rounding]

Because she saw him as a future emperor right from the moment he was born. So I'm liking a little less and.

[Kate Lister]

Less in this story.

[Virginia Rounding]

Yeah. She's not an easy character by any means. Catherine learnt quite a lot from her, but even so. And so her son was taken away. She was left feeling ill, depressed, and she spent some time, a few months, more or less, holed up in her apartments, thinking, I'm not going to come out until I feel all right. She read a lot, she thought a lot. And her husband, having succeeded in getting this child, he wasn't very interested in her after that. He was off playing on his own doing.

[Kate Lister]

Playing with his tin soldiers, with other.

[Virginia Rounding]

Women and playing with real soldiers as well. He liked doing drill and that kind of stuff. Oh, did, yeah, right. Wearing uniform. So he was off doing other stuff. Even Sergei Saltykov wasn't being very attentive. He'd also sort of disappeared. So Catherine was left to her own devices. She did a lot of self education at that point and realized if she was going to make her way in this strange world of Russia, she. She had to do it on her own. And at that point, she began to be befriended by Sir Charles, the British ambassador, who taught her a lot about statecraft and how to prepare. Together they talked about her being Empress.

[Kate Lister]

Really?

[Virginia Rounding]

Yeah. And initially it was thought of, well, that they knew it would be a very unstable time once Elizabeth died, because Peter the Great had changed how the rules of succession worked. It was up to the existing Tsar to choose the new one. So they knew it was going to be possibly unstable. Elizabeth had designated Peter as her heir, but there were all kinds of machinations going on and if he turned out to be completely inadequate, anything could happen. So initially, Catherine, with Sir Charles help, envisaged him taking over, but her being a very important supporter in the background and pulling in various strings of influence and so on, as it became clear that that might not happen, they began to think, well, perhaps you could be the Empress. So it really began in those years and gradually she built up all sorts of influences in different circles. And this took place over several years. I mean, we're talking more than a decade, because it's a long game, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. It was in 1761 that Elizabeth finally died, by which time the young Paul was 8 years old or so.

[Kate Lister]

So did Peter ever get a crack at this or was he just.

[Virginia Rounding]

Yeah, he got about six months. So as soon as Elizabeth died, it all actually appeared to be quite automatic. He did become the Tsar. He just took over. He then had a disastrous six months because he had no. Unlike Catherine, he got very little political instinct. He knew what he wanted, but he couldn't let things happen diplomatically. He had to do it straight away. So, for instance, he always hated the Orthodox Church. He decided they were not going to be like that anymore. The priests would have to shave their beards off and they'd all have to do what he said.

[Kate Lister]

Peter.

[Virginia Rounding]

They just weren't going to do that. It was in the middle of, well, towards the end of the Seven Years War with Prussia. He capitulated. He was very fond of Prussia and of Frederick the Great. So he gave away vast tracts of Russian territory and told the army to stop fighting. Well, that didn't go down very well either, as you can imagine. So he kind of messed things up pretty fast in that six months. But the further complication, by going fairly speedily through this period, we've missed out one lover who was of Catherine's. Who was? Stanislav Poniatowski, a young Polish man, friend of Sir Charles Hanbury Williams, who also played a part in her education by helping her become more cultured in a way. He was a very elegant, educated young man.

[Kate Lister]

Artistic type.

[Virginia Rounding]

Yeah. He expanded her experience in various ways. And they. And they were. And they also had a child, a daughter. It's all completely hidden, though. Eventually Peter found out about it. But it was managed by his lover, Elizabeth Vratsova, that they should have a foursome and all get along terribly well.

[Kate Lister]

And did they?

[Virginia Rounding]

They did for a bit, yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, wow.

[Virginia Rounding]

There was also fear that he might suddenly turn and one didn't want him to know too much. And eventually Stanislas had to go back to Poland. But the complicating factor in 1761 when Elizabeth died, was that various of Catherine's supporters thought she might stage a coup immediately, but she couldn't because she was five months pregnant.

[Kate Lister]

Damn it. Well done, Catherine.

[Virginia Rounding]

Grigori Arlo. Yeah. So she was extraordinary. And she spent hours praying alongside Elizabeth's dead body wearing voluminous clothes, so nobody noticed anything. And she managed to have. A few months later, she had a son who was farmed out too. Amazing. Brilliant.

[Kate Lister]

She's there crying and weeping and wailing at the grave of this woman. She's very technically right.

[Virginia Rounding]

She's very. Yeah, exactly. While she's pregnant with.

[Kate Lister]

I love that. So Peter gets his go at being a tsar. He's not great at it at all.

[Virginia Rounding]

Absolutely.

[Kate Lister]

Does she stage a coup, like, once she's had the baby? She's had a bit of maternity leave. Now I'm ready for a coup.

[Virginia Rounding]

Yeah, pretty much. That's right. And the lover she now has, Grigori Arlov, has four brothers who are all in various Guards regiments. They're pivotal to this whole thing because they can bring the Guards regiments who are fundamental in St Petersburg, along with them.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, look at that.

[Virginia Rounding]

And then there are other circles of courtiers and people who know what's going on. And so an expectation is arising that there will be a coup. Another thing Catherine's done throughout her time is concentrate on good primary. That's where Peter was. Rubbish. So even this thing of mourning the late Empress Elizabeth, the people liked that she did it in the right way. Was he was having a party straight away, practically.

[Kate Lister]

So is Catherine's choice of lovers. Do you think this is politically motivated? I mean, it helps if you happen to be knocking off a guy whose brothers happen to be in key positions in the army.

[Virginia Rounding]

Yeah, I don't think it's. Well, I think it's very mixed. It's very hard to say, actually. She definitely. Well, the appealing thing is about Catherine, and she genuinely falls in love. Repeatedly.

[Kate Lister]

Yes.

[Virginia Rounding]

So the first thing is that she sees some young man and she's attracted, and then she falls for them. The political element is partly other people. The people in the background thinking, how can we help her stage a coup? She could do with support from the guards. Oh, look at these brothers. How about that? Oh, look, why don't we just arrange for him to be walking along some point when she's coming and suggest to him, bow nicely. So I think sometimes I can see it throughout the course of her relationships, there is manipulation from outside going on.

[Kate Lister]

So it's not like she's a mercenary. It's not like she's like, you know, giving out sexual favors to, you know, get army support. That's just a nice coincidence.

[Virginia Rounding]

I think to her, it can seem like that, or it could begin as, I like this man. Oh, well, it could be useful as well. So it's certainly there. But I don't think she wouldn't wake up one morning and think, no, I need someone in the army. Who am I going to get?

[Kate Lister]

Okay. Yeah.

[Virginia Rounding]

So this coup was planned, but then it had to be brought forward because one of her supporters was arrested and they feared he might speak under torture, probably. So she was actually in bed on her own, I believe, at one of the summer palaces, when one of the Olaf brothers arrives and says, get dressed. We've got to do it now.

[Kate Lister]

This is a proper coup. This is Petyr, just go over there for a bit, and I'll consolidate more and more power. And he's like a proxy ruler. This is like a stayed or planned. We're gonna get him out of the way.

[Virginia Rounding]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Wow.

[Virginia Rounding]

We just didn't quite know when. But, yes, when it was done, they were ready to go. So she's taken in a carriage into St. Petersburg. Her hair's done on the way. They meet the hairdresser, and he gets in the carriage and sorts her out on the way.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, I like that. Good touch.

[Virginia Rounding]

And then she arrives in the city. Guards regiments are lined up ready to greet her. So are the church dignitaries.

[Kate Lister]

This is organized.

[Virginia Rounding]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so she's blessed. And it's a largely bloodless coup.

[Kate Lister]

Did Peter know it had happened?

[Virginia Rounding]

Where's he? He is out at one of the other summer palaces with his lover and his entourage having fun. Messages come through. She's in St. Petersburg. Your wife. We think she might be staging a coup. Oh, sure she's not doing that.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, she'll be fine.

[Virginia Rounding]

Then they decide to go off to the palace she's supposed to be in and Peterhof and Montpleise heir to have a look for her. Allegedly. He goes into the house, looks under the bed, in the wardrobe, thinks perhaps she's playing some funny game. She's not there. And eventually it dawns on him, it's true. And he tries to rally support by some troops who are faithful to him, but it doesn't succeed. And they get into a galley and go off and try to dock at Kronstadt. And they're told, no, no, you can't come. I'm the Tsar.

[Kate Lister]

Never heard of you, mate.

[Virginia Rounding]

Yes, it's worse being arrested and brought along in ignominy and his sword removed. And there he is told to abdicate.

[Kate Lister]

Does she kill him? Does he lit or does he.

[Virginia Rounding]

No, he doesn't. Not immediately. And it's. She would never accept responsibility that she might have done or been involved. But initially he is taken off and held in a secure prison with guards, and he's told he can have his violin. He'd like to have his mistress, but that's not allowed. It's one of the Alof brothers who's been deputed to be in charge of him. There's some kind of brawl, he dies. And Katharine's informed about it. The official version is he died of a severe attack of hemorrhoids. I don't know how that would work.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Virginia Rounding]

But in fact, when he is displayed in death for his funeral, there's sort of scarf around his neck to cover up probable strangulation. So something happened, and the Arlov brother involved wrote a note to Catherine, which was discovered much after she died.

[Kate Lister]

Do you know, Virginia? I don't think it was haemorrhoids.

[Virginia Rounding]

You know, you might be right about that.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. Oh.

[Virginia Rounding]

But it never was determined and never has been the extent of Catherine's involvement. It's unlikely. I think, that she said, kill him.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Virginia Rounding]

She didn't say, don't kill him. And he would have been a danger. Not himself necessarily, but a focal point for opposition. So it was safer with him out of the way. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Virginia after this short break.

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[Kate Lister]

Why is she called Catherine the Great? I mean, I was just. I guess this depends on who you ask, because certainly Petyr wouldn't have called her Catherine the Great, but. So she's come to power. Peter has tragically died of hemorrhoids. It's awful.

[Virginia Rounding]

It sounds really sad. Yes.

[Kate Lister]

It seems like Russia was ready for this and wanted this. So was she. Was everything as good as they thought it was gonna be?

[Virginia Rounding]

In certain respects, it was certainly better.

[Kate Lister]

It was pretty bad though, wasn't it?

[Virginia Rounding]

It was pretty bad. It wasn't necessarily better for those at the very lowest end of society, which is most of them. It was better for courtiers. It was better for what we might call civil servants. It was better for, in certain respects, for the people with land. It was a more civilized era than what had gone before. And there's certain things didn't happen. She didn't like torture to be used in interrogations or in general. There was a lot less of it than before. There wasn't much capital punishment. It was a bit, but not a lot.

[Kate Lister]

That's good.

[Virginia Rounding]

Yeah. There was more education, especially for girls.

[Kate Lister]

Hurrah, Catherine. Well done. Okay, okay, this is sounding good.

[Virginia Rounding]

Yeah. There was tolerance of other religions, but that went hand in hand with acquiring more land and more subjects. But provided they were loyal to her and to the empire, they could largely live the way they wanted. So she didn't call herself Great. I mean, it was a title bestowed on her by history. And when she wrote her own sort of epitaph, fancifully, she just called herself Here lies Catherine ii, who did her best for Russia.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, that's quite modest.

[Virginia Rounding]

Yeah. Yeah, she was a strange mixture. Part of her was modest. She wanted to do a Good job. She did believe in the Enlightenment ideals of education, culture, art, categorization, learning things. She loved to educate herself and other people. She was horrified about the extent of the lack of knowledge in Russia. There are lovely stories of her when she first came to power. They're having a meeting of her various dignitaries and saying, well, I want a map. Of what territory? We have a map. We haven't got one of those. Well, go and get one.

[Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Virginia Rounding]

They had to go out to the Academy of Sciences and get a map. And one of her major works was to bring together, or attempt to bring together all the disparate laws and conventions and actually have a proper system of law. So these are the aspects in which she's great.

[Kate Lister]

Yes.

[Virginia Rounding]

She's civilizing in a way that subsequent generations might find more difficult, post colonialism and all that kind of thing. And she is a contested, difficult character. But the idea of expansion of Russian spheres of influence, of pushing back against Europe but being part of it. She's very competitive, but she hated to be condescended to, reasonably enough, by British ambassadors and so on.

[Kate Lister]

Did she ever get married again?

[Virginia Rounding]

It's possible that she married her great lover Patyomkin, secretly, but she never married officially in any way because, rather like our Elizabeth I, she didn't want to compromise her own power by ceding it.

[Kate Lister]

But she did fall in love. I mean, she's doing amazing things on the political stage. Slightly power grabby.

[Virginia Rounding]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kate Lister]

But she's also falling in love an awful lot.

[Virginia Rounding]

Yes. That's what's interesting, I think. It's this need for love. And it's not just sex, by any means.

[Kate Lister]

And who was. What did you say his name was? It began with P. There. You said the love of her life.

[Virginia Rounding]

Yeah. Patyomkin.

[Kate Lister]

Patyomkin. Who was he?

[Virginia Rounding]

He was another guards officer. He'd first appeared in her life at her accession when he was. He appeared and gave her his sword pommel. But that.

[Kate Lister]

That'll do it.

[Virginia Rounding]

Yeah. She didn't fall for him then, but I think maybe he imprinted his self on her mind. He was a str. Stormy character. He was very devout. One of the ways he got her interest was that when she tried to say, come to court and be with me. He's like, I'm in a monastery. I'm going to be a monk. And partly he knew how to play her. Part of it was sincere, I think, but he decided, okay, give up being a monk and he would go off and be Catherine's lover instead. But he was Unlike many of her younger, later lovers, he was also very ambitious and very clever. He did want to share her power, which she found very difficult. And they had a very stormy relationship. She fell madly in love with him, more than with any of her previous ones. By now she'd ended the relationship with Arlulf and she had had a rather insignificant, beautiful young man for 18 months. And she didn't know quite what she'd done that for, really. But Patyomkin was serious and deep, and they had huge rows. People used to hear lots of door slamming and that kind of thing must.

[Kate Lister]

Have been so difficult. Cause if you're the king or the emp, you're allowed to have mistresses. That's just part of the deal. But because of the patriarch and because women were restricted to the roles they had, the mistresses could never wield hard power. They couldn't go on to war councils and they couldn't pass laws. They had a softer power. But with Catherine the Great, these men, they could perhaps wield a much more hard power.

[Virginia Rounding]

Well, they certainly wanted to. I think that's very interesting. I think they were called upon to play the mistress role, and later the younger men actually did that. Patyomkin wasn't going to be a mistress. No, he really couldn't cope with that idea. But conversely, Catherine was quite clear, she was the empress. And when she said, okay, go now, I've got work to do, she tried to treat him like a royal mistress. And ultimately what they had to do was find a power base for him that would enable him to work closely with her, but not be in competition. So he became her envoy to far flung parts of the empire. He was involved in conquering territory.

[Kate Lister]

Did they stay together for the rest of her life?

[Virginia Rounding]

They were always together. In one sense, he was the closest person to her, but he was often at a great geographical distance, building up her empire for her elsewhere and being given titles, honours, himself. He took other women for sure. And what he tried to do to make her sexual life work, but still himself be in it, while not completely in it, was he sort of procured her first lot of lovers.

[Kate Lister]

Well, now, that's an interesting turn of events.

[Virginia Rounding]

So he kept the power, but also made sure she was happy. So certainly the first lover that she had after Zawadowski was someone he chose. And he was almost like their. In some kind of weird ways, like their son, because he's younger than both of them, but he fulfilled the role of Catherine's secretary and lover. But under Padyomkin's kind of command.

[Kate Lister]

So he's going to choose him. Kind of young, dumb, full of cum and stupid, Right?

[Virginia Rounding]

Not necessarily dumb, but well biddable.

[Kate Lister]

Like, that's what Madame Pompadour did when she didn't want to have sex with Louis anymore, wasn't she? She found young, kind of silly girls.

[Virginia Rounding]

Yeah, yeah. Ones she could feel in control of and not threatened by. So that was very much Patyomkin's idea.

[Kate Lister]

Interesting.

[Virginia Rounding]

But they had to be acceptable to Catherine, so they had to not be completely dumb. What they had to be was teachable. Because the other thing about her is she loved educating. So to have a young man, handsome, he could do things in bed, we don't know about that, that's kept quiet. We just have to imagine. But also, they had to be capable, but they also had to be prepared to learn to enjoy with her things like her art collection. Part of her day would be walking around her newly acquired artworks in the galleries she'd had designed and looking at them, or going through the cupboards and covers of little cameos, beautifully crafted little gems with pictures of gods and goddesses and classical mythology of them. And she'd love to pore over these in an afternoon alongside one of her young lovers.

[Kate Lister]

Does yours have erotic furniture? I've heard that, yes, she did.

[Virginia Rounding]

There was an exhibition at Sars Kirsy Law a few years ago where it was all collected. We don't know what she used them for erotically, but, yeah, she liked to have things, interesting things around her.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. And she's taken much younger lovers into her 60s, this lady.

[Virginia Rounding]

Oh, absolutely, yes. And one of them in particular, she was absolutely devoted to a young man called Alexander Lanskoy, who fulfilled all her desires in that he was young, very teachable, very adoring of her. And she thought every time, like a young girl, each new relationship, she thought, this is the world. This is going to last forever. She certainly thought it with Alexander Lanskoy. He died young of diphtheria, and she was completely devastated because normally after each relationship ended, there'd be one waiting in the wings and she'd move on. But she couldn't move on for six months after Lanskoi, she was just flattened. And Paul Patyomkin had to be summoned from wherever he was, conquering new bits of empire, to come and console her and look after her and get her through.

[Kate Lister]

She really did love them, didn't she?

[Virginia Rounding]

Yes, she did. Yeah. And some of the stories are very sad in that as she grew older, the young men would be in it for what they could get out of it. There'd be families pushing forward a young man, she would fall for them. And there was one called Rimsky Korsakoff, ancestor of the composer, who had an affair with one of her. Her maids with the Countess Bruce. And there's another who, towards the end of his relationship with Catherine, finally admitted he was actually going to marry one of her entourage. And at first she's devastated, and then she quickly says, well, all right, we need to go. But here's a palace for you to live in. Here's lots of money. Here are lots of serfs. So no wonder their families pushed them forward, because they came out of it pretty well. So she was unfailingly generous.

[Kate Lister]

I could honestly talk to you about someone all day, but I'm not allowed to. But one thing I've got to ask you. We have to. You must be so sick of this question by now. Can we talk about how Catherine died?

[Virginia Rounding]

Yes. She died of a stroke.

[Kate Lister]

There we go, everybody. She died of a stroke. That's what I was.

[Virginia Rounding]

There were no horses involved. There were horses, Dory. Oh, it's. It's terrible. It has. It's the kind of story that unfortunately, when you hear it once, you never forget, even though you know it's not the case.

[Kate Lister]

I think that, like, when you hear that, like, it's so ridiculous. She died having sex with a horse. That's the story?

[Virginia Rounding]

Yeah. The story is that the horse was held up in some kind of harness above her to make it possible that the harness collapsed. But somebody made it up.

[Kate Lister]

Do we know who made it up and how long that rumor's been going around for?

[Virginia Rounding]

Been going around since very soon after her death. I think it procures back to good old fashioned misogyny. It was, women can't live like this. How dare she get away with it? So they had to come up with some kind of story to discredit her. But it's very hard to forget.

[Kate Lister]

You don't get powerful women without some kind of nonsense being spoken about them somewhere.

[Virginia Rounding]

No, but actually, her death is very touching. Her actual death. By then, Pachomkin had died. So she was a bit of a shadow of her former self without him. He died five years before her. She had a young lover, but Zuborf, he took advantage of her. He was the only one who really did that. Had his own separate sort of court. And began to leak power away from her, at least within the court. But yes, she got up in the morning. She went off. She got up early as usual, made her own coffee so as not to disturb anybody. Went to the wc, wherever they had her little bathroom, and then was there a long time. And one of her maidservants thought, this is a bit odd. What's going on? Tried to open the door and she couldn't because she'd fallen and was wedged against the door. So they had to get help to get her out. So she'd had a stroke. Very sad.

[Kate Lister]

No horses involved?

[Virginia Rounding]

No horses. Purely natural causes. No horses. That's okay.

[Kate Lister]

As someone that studies this woman and someone that wanted to try and push through the myths, the obvious myths, like the horse that we get from. As a final question, then, what is it that you would like people to know about Catherine the Great?

[Virginia Rounding]

I think her own epitaph, the fact that she saw herself as a servant of Russia, the fact that she was a great civilizing influence. She was a friend of Voltaire, of Diderot, the French Enlightenment philosophers. She believed in doing her best. We might now see some of that as misguided. And yes, she had appetites, but that she was serious also really good company.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, I love that.

[Virginia Rounding]

With a little smile. People who spent time with her often loved it. Her courtiers, her close servants loved her. And there's a lovely portrait of her by Bara Vikowski where she's just wearing rather homely, grandmotherly clothes, a long coat where she walked around her gardens with her greyhounds. They're massive gardens, obviously. But so alongside the empress, the powerful woman, there's this very human figure who likes to have friends and who liked to work hard.

[Kate Lister]

Virginia, you have been wonderful to talk to. Thank you so much for coming to talk to us. You have been marvelous.

[Virginia Rounding]

My pleasure. Oh, thank you, Kate. It's been very nice to talk to you and always good to talk about Catherine.

[Kate Lister]

What a legend. Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to Virginia for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to, like, review and follow along whatever it is you get. Your podcasts, if you like us to explore a subject, or if you just fancy saying hello, then you can email [e-mail] we have got loads of Queenie and empressy sex this month, including Queen Victoria and Marie Antoinette. And watch out for an upcoming episode on Cleopatra and another one on Elizabeth the First. Oh, we do spoil you, don't we? This podcast was edited and produced by Sophie G. And the senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt Alexa Sheets, history of sex scandal in society. A Podcast by history hit.

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[Virginia Rounding]

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[Virginia Rounding]

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[Kate Lister]

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