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- [00:00]
Kate Lister
Hello everyone, it's me, your host, Kate Lister. I'm just jumping in before the episode to ask you for a little favor. If you are enjoying betwixt, and I hope that you are, we'd love it if you could vote for us for the Listeners Choice Awards at the British Podcast Awards. If you follow the link in the show notes, it should take you to the place you need to go and it would mean the world to us. We were shortlisted last year and the one before that and the one before that. We were so close and it just made us want it even more. I think we can do it this year. Right on with the show.
- [00:38]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [01:03]
Kristen Bell
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- [01:06]
Kate Lister
21/ Terms and Conditions apply.
- [01:08]
Unknown
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- [02:02]
Kristen Bell
Hi, I'm Kristen Bell and if you know my husband Dax, then you also know he loves shopping for a car. Selling a car, not so much. We're really doing this, huh? Thankfully, Carvana makes it easy. Answer a few questions, put in your VIN or license and done. We sold ours in minutes this morning and they'll come pick it up and pay us this afternoon.
- [02:21]
Unknown
Goodbye Truckee.
- [02:22]
Kristen Bell
Of course we kept the favorite.
- [02:26]
Unknown
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- [02:27]
Kristen Bell
Sell your car with Carvana today. Terms and conditions apply.
- [02:34]
Kate Lister
Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Cait Lister. You are you. I am me. And this is betwixt the sheets. But before we can go any further together, before I can let you wander off into this podcast all vulnerable and prone to attack, I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast book about other adults. About adulty things and adult Wake up, Arrange adult subjects used to be an adult too. And in particular, this episode does contain references to child abuse. Right, on with the show. It's the 9th of August, 1588, and England has been sparring for a fight for well over a year. Ships have been built and ports have been armed against the fleet of over 100 Spanish galleons that have been sent to overthrow our queen, the Elizabeth I. I think not. I think not. Now, at Tilbury, near the mouth of the River Thames, we await a possible attack. Armor clinks on tired bodies and men mutter to one another. But then a hush falls through the ranks. Comes a small procession. An earl holds the sword of state aloft. A page carries a helmet with white plumes on a gilded cushion and atop a huge white horse. There she. She is. It's Elizabeth I herself. She wears a white velvet gown. Her torso is corseted in steel, but her head is bare. She addresses the gathered troops and gives the legendary speech. I have come amongst you as you see it this time, not for my recreation and disport, but being resolved in the midst of heat and the battle to live or die amongst you all. To lay down my life for my God, I. And for my kingdom and for my people, my honor and my blood. Even in the dust, I know I have the body of a weak and feeble woman, but I have the heart and stomach of a king. Good stuff, isn't it? Elizabeth was a warrior, a fearless leader and a skilled politician. But her brand was all about virginity. And so we remember her as the Virgin Queen.
- [04:51]
Kristen Bell
What do you look for?
- [04:52]
Kate Lister
A man.
- [04:52]
Kristen Bell
Oh, money.
- [04:53]
Kate Lister
Of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob.
- [05:01]
Kristen Bell
And pushing the button.
- [05:09]
Kate Lister
Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.
- [05:11]
Kristen Bell
Goodness, what beautiful diamonds. Had nothing to do with it, dearie.
- [05:20]
Kate Lister
Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society. With me, Kate Lister. With Henry VIII as a dad and Anne Boleyn as a mum. Elizabeth I was off to a Slightly rocky start, but despite this, and after losing her mum to the executioner's sword when she was just two years old and being declared illegitimate by her father and being imprisoned and put under house arrest by her sister, Elizabeth became one of most famous and successful queens, ruling for a stonking 44 years. She is most definitely a complicated and complex character, but being a virgin was very much at the forefront of Elizabeth's branding. I mean, explorers were even naming lands after that. Thank you very much, Walter Raleigh. So what was all this virginity stuff about? Today we are being joined by none other than Anna Whitelock, professor of the history of monarchy at City St. George's University, University of London. Have you got your roughs on, everybody? Let's do this. Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Anna Whitelock. How are you doing?
- [06:33]
Kristen Bell
I am very well. Hello, how are you?
- [06:36]
Kate Lister
I'm so excited to be talking to you. This is one of my most favorite subjects, Elizabeth the first. Lizzie. Lizzie. But before we get to her, you are a professor of the history of monarchy. So you're a great person to ask the question, what is it about the Tudors that so fascinates us seemingly more than any other group of royals? And I'm as guilty of it as anyone else. Why?
- [07:03]
Kristen Bell
It's a really good question. I think it's partly because for the first time, in terms of historical sources, we have stuff about them as people as well as about all the various sort of politics and wars and events going on around them. We actually know about their sex lives, which of course is something that always captivates people. And they're the first time we sort of have monarchs becoming something like celebrities. The ubiquity of their image takes off. We think about, you know, the way in which images of like Henry viii, that big Holbein image where he has his legs standing akimbo with a very prominent codpiece. We have the Virgin Queen picture of Elizabeth, otherwise known as the Armada portrait, where she has a very strategically prominent bow at her groin, making a very deliberate and profound statement about her virginity as being a source of political power. And so I think it's something about they became the kind of pinups of monarchy in a way. We know something about the personal and the political, and I think it's that that really captivates people. And as you say, I mean, you can't move an inch without coming across a new film or book, or, dare I say it, podcast on the Tudors. And it never seems to that demand, never Seems to dry up.
- [08:22]
Kate Lister
I think sex does seem to go at the heart of what we think about this particular group of people. I don't know if they saw themselves like that, but, yeah, Henry with his big codpiece, Elizabeth with her. No, thank you. I'm not having sex with anybody. Oh, ho, ho, stuff. I wonder if they saw themselves like that as well, that they're a sexy brand.
- [08:40]
Kristen Bell
I mean, that's a certainly sexy way of putting it. I mean, in a slightly more unsexy way, I would say that actually monarchy is all about succession.
- [08:51]
Kate Lister
Yes.
- [08:52]
Kristen Bell
And of course, succession is ultimately about sex and producing the next generation, the heir. And hopefully monarch's having a spare too. So actually it is really important. And in the Tudor period, it becomes the stuff of politics. Because if we think about the Tudor period that, you know, first of all, Henry VIII marries his brothers, his dead brother's wife.
- [09:22]
Kate Lister
Weird.
- [09:23]
Kristen Bell
Yeah. He later then says, you know, the marriage wasn't consummated.
- [09:28]
Kate Lister
Also weird.
- [09:30]
Kristen Bell
Yeah. And then he, of course, has a relationship with Anne Boleyn. And then, you know, multiple w. Of course, we know, infamously, we then have a boy king who isn't of an age to produce an heir. We then have a succession crisis. We then have a woman, Mary, an unmarried woman, and women at the time were believed to be more sexually sort of voracious than men, actually. And so it really was the case that men, or women, rather, needed to be married to kind of protect their reputations. And so the absolute expectation was that Mary would marry. She had to, politically and sort of in terms of sort of sexual reputation and also to preserve the succession. But she has phantom pregnancies. She doesn't produce an heir. And then, of course, Elizabeth. And Elizabeth, her sex life becomes the stuff of politics, quite literally. First of all, whether she is menstruating, her menstrual cycle was the stuff of diplomatic correspondence, quite literally, because, of course, you have an unmarried queen when she became queen in 1558, she's a big marriage prospect, but only if she can essentially produce an heir, because otherwise, you know, her value is far less as a marriage partner. And so all the potential princes of Europe want to know if she is fertile, first of all. And so details about her menstrual cycle form the stuff of correspondence. But then, of course, is she chaste? And again, the issue of reputation, sexual reputation comes at stake. And of course, her enemies, who are Catholics, say her mother, who had the Anne Boleyn, who had the title, you know, the great whore, here's Elizabeth, she's the little whore. And the argument was, like mother, like daughter. Just as Anne Boleyn was accused of adultery, including with her brother, actually. So Elizabeth is promiscuous, not least with Robert Dudley, and so her reputation is sort of undermined. She's slandered by Catholics who want to suggest that actually she's sort of not chaste and therefore not a good marriage prospect. And so we have this whole kind of discussion across Europe, again, as, is the Queen a virgin? And so on. And then, of course, at what point does the Queen get to an age where she's actually postmenopausal, she's not gonna produce a child, and therefore, is she or is she not actually worth the marriage? And then at that point, you have the creation of this amazing image of a virgin queen, which was a triumph of spin, really, and was trying to make a virtue out of the fact that you had a post menopausal unmarried queen on the throne, which was a dead end in terms of the succession. And so hence you have all this stuff about, yeah, but she's married to the realm. It's an act of great self sacrifice to be a virgin, and trying to make that something of a political strength, when in fact, of course, it was in reality a great weakness.
- [12:31]
Kate Lister
So that whole Virgin Queen married to the country, I'm not interested in her husband, just the English. That wasn't part of her game plan from the very early ages. That was something that came in later in life.
- [12:43]
Kristen Bell
Yeah, I mean, it's a really interesting, you know, question because obviously, did Elizabeth intend to marry? The expectation was that she would marry, not least because she needed to produce an heir. Mary's marriage to Philip of Spain had proved ultimately to be unpopular, in that Mary went to war with France on her husband's behalf, although beyond that, and before that, actually, Philip was broadly welcomed as the male element in government. So it's not true to say, you know, the Spanish marriage was entirely unpopular, but I think by the end of Mary's reign, and given the fact that England had joined Philip's war with France, there was a sense of caution about who she was going to marry. And basically the various candidates, no one person secured the unanimous support of her council. So it was always, well, he's too young, he's too Protestant, he's too Catholic, he's too French, whatever. And then time went on. She was also, I think, infatuated with Robert Dudley. I mean, one of the great questions. And when I. When my book Bedfellows came out, I did a tour in the uk, but also in America. And it was amazing. So I went to some very prestigious places to give talks and after dinner, speeches, and they all wanted to know, did they or didn't they? And I guess I ended up, maybe because it was America, I ended up with a sort of Bill Clinton, Monica Lewinsky kind of, you know, defense of maybe, you know, sort of perhaps not full sexual relations, but perhaps something else, of course, we don't know is the bottom line, but certainly people paid much of their relationship both to slander the Queen, but also, I think it was an explanation in part as to why she didn't focus on any one candidate. And then it got too late. And then, yes, to answer your question directly, there was a sense, well, actually, let's make a virtue of the fact that she's really old and postmenopausal. And so it was at that point, not the beginning, as you suggest, that this construction of the Virgin Queen came in.
- [14:48]
Kate Lister
And that's interesting.
- [14:50]
Kristen Bell
Yeah, it really is, as a sort of sense of, you know, this is total political spin making a strength out of a profound weakness.
- [14:59]
Kate Lister
I wouldn't blame Elizabeth at all, though, just listening to that catalog of sexual disaster that surrounds this woman, from her mother losing her head to her father philandering to Mary's, just like, oh, that marriage happened, to everyone obsessing about her menstrually. I wouldn't blame her at all if it was just a decision of like, no, do you know what? Sod this. I don't want to have sex with anybody. This is too. I've seen what can happen here and it seems to be a bit of a disaster all round. Do you think there was any of that in it? Or do you think, like, she intended to get married? Or do you think at some point she just thought, nah, I'm all right, actually?
- [15:36]
Kristen Bell
Well, I think some of that did play a factor. I mean, it's really dangerous to kind of, you know, end up being kind of historical psychologists and try and project back.
- [15:45]
Kate Lister
And it's fun, though.
- [15:46]
Kristen Bell
It is fun. But actually, you know, notwithstanding that kind of warning, at the end of the day, you know, whether it be 500 years ago or not, these are people and her mother had met a very bloody end on charges of adultery. We know about how things have been with her dad, as you say. We also know about an account of Elizabeth having engaging in, or perhaps being abused, really, by his stepfather, Thomas Seymour. And there's various accounts of this in David Starkey's book. For example, Elizabeth's Apprenticeship years. It opens with this whole discussion of the sort of 12, 13 year old Elizabeth sort of playing these games with Thomas Seymour, with him kind of coming into her bedchamber, slapping her bottom essentially, and then Thomas Seymour, Catherine Parr, holding down Elizabeth as they sort of cut bits of her night clothes off.
- [16:45]
Kate Lister
It's not good.
- [16:47]
Kristen Bell
Yeah, I mean, really not good. So, you know, that also very possibly had a bit of an effect on her too. So I think there are reasons why she would have found male relationships quite difficult. And then of course, she was also navigating a very male political world as a woman. And although she wasn't the first queen, she was a unmarried queen and there never had been an unmarried queen before.
- [17:11]
Kate Lister
Let's talk a bit about Thomas Seymour. Cause this might help us get to the ultimate question that we're all interested in. Was she really a virgin? And now we're gonna get into the. Well, how do you define it? What counts?
- [17:21]
Kristen Bell
Da, da, da, da.
- [17:22]
Kate Lister
But let's talk about Thomas Seymour and what you think was going on there.
- [17:27]
Kristen Bell
Well, I mean, so Thomas Seymour was the husband of Catherine Parr, Henry's final wife, as it were. And there are accounts of Thomas Seymour wanting to marry Elizabeth and you know, in fact sort of asking her to marry him when she was sort of 13. And then as I say, there are these accounts that following Thomas Seymour's marriage to Catherine Parr, Henry VIII's widow, Elizabeth started living with Catherine. Thomas of course, moved in and joined them. And then Elizabeth would start to receive early morning visits from Thomas Seymour and descriptions talk about he would make as though he would come at her. So he would sort of come at her and she would shrink back. There's an account that the next day she got up early so that he wouldn't find her in bed. But he did arrive and she was there. She was still only dressed in her sort of night dressed and he had arrived in his nightgown. And accounts described him bare legged in his slippers. And then the account describes her, him striking her on the back or the buttocks familiarly. And another time he climbed into bed with her. I mean, this is, this is, by any other, you know, this is an.
- [18:44]
Kate Lister
Account of abuse really grooming, isn't it?
- [18:47]
Kristen Bell
It is, it's grooming. And Catherine Parr, Elizabeth's stepmother, on one occasion joined Seymour to together tickle Elizabeth in bed. So, yeah, I mean, it's very, very unseemly. And I think this can't have, you know, not had an impact on the sort of 1314 year old Elizabeth.
- [19:10]
Kate Lister
No, absolutely. Now it's a really unsettling episode in this young girl's life and would absolutely have had an effect. It kind of comes out and it creates like a little mini scandal, doesn't it? I mean, it's handled and she moved past it, but it's there.
- [19:25]
Kristen Bell
Exactly. It's in her hinterland. She's only 13, 14. It's just after her father's death. So, yeah, I think it's really formative. And then of course, she lives through the period of her sister, her half sister, becoming queen following her brother's premature death. She for a time was in the Tower, of course, during the reign of her half sister Mary. So she then has a number of years of real stress and risk and danger. I mean, she was the kind of figurehead of opposition during the reign of her sister Mary and then comes to the throne and, you know, she was attractive, precocious as a young child, accomplished, successful. She could dance, she could play music, she could write, she was smart, she was intelligent, she was attractive, she was crazy smart.
- [20:19]
Kate Lister
Like she could do a Sudoku in seconds. She could speak loads of languages, she was interested in sciences. And she was a hottie as well.
- [20:27]
Kristen Bell
Yeah, I mean, she really, really was. She was a 20 something, you know, becoming queen. And yes, Mary, I had been queen before and I'm always keen to make that point. You know, she was the first crown Queen of England. But Elizabeth then stepped into Mary's shoes as an unmarried queen. Mary, of course, married a year into her reign, Elizabeth doesn't. And Elizabeth, you know, then proceeds to reign for very many decades. And also the challenge for a female monarch, which I really sort of thought a lot about when I was working on Mary and then becomes the sort of great challenge for Elizabeth is, you know, male monarchs, they have to provide an heir. We all know that that's the job. You know, it's about succession, it's about providing an heir and a spare. Ideally, what a female monarch has to do is actually not only provide an air, but they have to produce an air. In other words, their body actually has to be doing the producing. So their body is at stake and involved in the very real stuff of politics and succession in a way that male monarchs aren't. And so the level of the degree of scrutiny on, you know, first Mary and Mary had undertaken this sort of humiliating process of, you know, thinking she was pregnant, withdrawing into a chamber, everybody going, hurrah, hurrah, there's a baby. And then going, oh, there's Not. And then actually it was all a false alarm because she had a, you know, a phantom pregnancy. Awful. Elizabeth then comes to the throne. She is susceptible to kind of migraines, she's susceptible to digestive problems. It seems that she has pretty irregular periods. All of these things are written about and she has to navigate that. And yes, she has clearly an attachment to Robert Dudley, who of course is married, then whose wife is found dead in suspicious circumstances. Which in a sense, if it wasn't a no go option before that, he certainly was then. And I think it was a kind of remarkably sort of full of sexual conspiracy, you know, the court of Elizabeth is the queen, isn't she? Who's she gonna marry, isn't she? And all that was at risk, which was a great deal, was of course, her chaste reputation because, as you know, it was so important, the power of an unmarried woman especially, obviously a queen only existed as long as they had a reputation for chastity. If that was undermined in a way that, of course it wasn't for a man. Because if you're a king who sleeps around, that's a sign of virility, political power. Hence Henry's very prominent COD piece. Henry viii. Absolutely fine. Have as many mistresses as you like. Very, very different rules for a woman. Which makes, you know, being a queen regnant even harder.
- [23:21]
Kate Lister
I'll be back with Anna after this short break. Listen up. You can get the new iPhone 16e.
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Kate Lister
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Kristen Bell
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Kate Lister
Give you this deal. And hey, stop messing with the mic.
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Unknown
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Kristen Bell
This is a great deal.
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Kate Lister
Exactly. So it doesn't need all that.
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Kristen Bell
Fine. Head to your nearest Boost Mobile store right now. Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store for full offer details.
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Unknown
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Kate Lister
The McDonald's Snack Wrap is back.
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Kristen Bell
You brought it back. Ranch snack wrap.
- [24:10]
Kate Lister
Spicy snack wrap.
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Kristen Bell
You broke the Internet for a snack?
- [24:15]
Kate Lister
Snack wrap is back.
- [24:19]
Ryan Seacrest
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Kristen Bell
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Kate Lister
21/ Terms and Conditions apply.
- [24:49]
Kristen Bell
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- [24:58]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [25:00]
Kristen Bell
It was just moments ago. We do same day pickup. Here's your check for that great offer. It is the future. It's. It's the present and just the convenience of Carvana. Sorry to blow your mind. It's all good.
- [25:12]
Unknown
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- [25:13]
Kate Lister
Sell your car the convenient way to Carvana. Pick up. Times may vary and fees may apply. We've gotta talk about Robert. Rob, Bob, Bobby. Yeah, a lot has been made about him. Who was he and what is your take on what this relationship was between them?
- [25:43]
Kristen Bell
I mean, it is one of the great. Did they, didn't they, of history. He was undoubtedly a favorite of Elizabeth. He of course was the Earl of Leicester. His father was the Duke of Northumberland who had sought to prevent Mary I coming to the throne. So he was very much sort of involved with that. Robert Dudley had sort of emerged at the beginning of Elizabeth's reign as one of her closest male companions. He was appointed to the role of Master of the Horse, which if you remember The Queen Victoria, Mr. Brown film with Billy Connolly. Yes, he was her Master of the Horse. So basically it's a very, it's a close position of sort of male intimacy with a female monarch. So this is somebody who's helping the Queen on and off, the horses accompanying them. So it's a really, it's a close relationship, one of the closest you can have as a queen regnant to a male courtier. So they had that relationship. He became the Earl of Leicester, he became a significant landowner in the West Midlands and he was. Became one of her sort of leading statesmen. And he was attractive and glamorous in a way that her other kind of leading men were not, like William Cecil, who was just, you know, a very good, an admin person, as it were. But it was clear that Elizabeth and him had a very flirtatious relationship. They were clearly sort of attracted to each other. When his wife, the Earl of Leicester's wife, Amy Robsart, died and she was found dead at the bottom of a flight of stairs just two years after Elizabeth's succession, it all looked a little bit convenient. And of course, suddenly he was you know, technically free to marry. But immediately rumors kind of suggested that actually you know, there was foul play at stake. And so really, do you think she.
- [27:35]
Kate Lister
Was bumped off or do you think she just fell down the stairs?
- [27:38]
Kristen Bell
I think it's very hard to know. I mean, I don't think there's persuasive evidence to say that she was murdered.
- [27:46]
Kate Lister
It doesn't seem like a good plan. Like it didn't pan out. If the plan was we'll shove her down the stairs so we can get married, that just. Well, no, you won't now, because now it just looks like she's been murdered.
- [27:54]
Kristen Bell
Well, exactly. Well, ex. Exactly. I mean, it was always a long shot, the prospect of him marrying Elizabeth because. Well, because in a way, you generally. Marriages, of course, at the time, are ways of brokering foreign alliances.
- [28:08]
Kate Lister
Yes.
- [28:09]
Kristen Bell
So, you know, the big alliance that in a way shored up the Tudor dynasty and underwrote the Tudor dynasty right to the point of the Spanish Armada was the Spanish alliance. And the Spanish alliance had been established when Henry VII had married his elder son, Prince Arthur, to Catherine of Aragon, who then, of course, was married to Henry viii. So foreign alliances are generally what are achieved through marriages. And marrying an English nobleman wouldn't have secured a foreign alliance and therefore sort of foreign recognition, but also would very likely have just created a faction, a court. But that's not to say that lots and lots of people perhaps thought he was vying for the Queen's hand. And this was certainly what ambassadors were talking about. And it seems, too, that Dudley, you know, Dudley wanted to marry Elizabeth, but really his efforts got nowhere. And although Elizabeth, when she got very sick with smallpox, did agree to Robert Dudley, if she died being protector of the realm, actually there was a great deal of relief when she recovered. And gradually he's kind of moved out a little bit from the kind of immediate sphere around her. So certainly a male favourite certainly had apartments next to hers. Certainly he had an influence that was unmatched. Certainly there was a kind of flirtation, but ultimately the stakes were too high for there to be anything meaningful between them, and certainly not really a prospect of marriage being in any way realistic.
- [29:48]
Kate Lister
Given the fact that everything that this woman does, thinks, says and every aspect of her body is under intense scrutiny, is there any chance, in your opinion, that she could have snuck out from her bed and done the deed with Robert Dudley and then snuck back in again? Or would somebody somewhere have noticed and said something?
- [30:06]
Kristen Bell
I mean, it is possible Elizabeth would have bedfellows, as was the title of my book, which were literally people who. Women who would sleep either next to the Queen in the same bed, or at the kind of bottom of the bed or the side of the bed, on a truckle bed, a small pullout bed. And they were there to tend to the fire, to help her dress, but they were also there for propriety, basically to be able to attest to the fact that there was no shenanigans going on. Well, of course, you know, we all know what close female friendship.
- [30:41]
Kate Lister
Yeah, I mean, you'd want your best friend to have you back there, wouldn't you? Just go, look, I'll just go and make a sandwich in the kitchen.
- [30:47]
Kristen Bell
Well, I mean, there is. I mean, Although her governess, you know, cat Ashley, was very proper and she was there at the time of the goings on with Thomas Seymour and made Elizabeth very aware that this really did. This was really problematic for her reputation. Elizabeth was also surrounded by women closer in age to her. And as you say, I mean, one of the things that I've always been really keen to sort of reintroduce into the narrative of the reign of queens, both Mary and Elizabeth, is the role of female intimacy as political intimacy. So historians talk a lot, and this was the work of the sort of infamous historian, David Starkey, who talked about political intimacy under Henry viii. And he would say things like, you know, the people that the King went jousting with or played tennis with, who hung out within his privy chamber, you know, they were his mates and they were people that he really trusted, and they are as important, if not more important, than the Privy councillors who would sit around the council table all day. But then the argument used to go, yeah, but when you have a female monarch, well, you can't have relationships of political intimacy because all the private apartments are filled with women and not men anymore. Well, then women can't be political intimates, because women aren't political players. And I think, you know, actually, in truth, women were really important. They had access to so much information. You know, they were bribed by foreign diplomats because they had that access and information and they saw what went on and they could defend and protect the Queen accordingly. So, yes, I mean, it's possible that she had allies among her women who would allow her to do what she wanted and have some kind of dalliance with Robert Dudley. I think that is possible, if that's what Elizabeth had wanted. I mean, the reality is we'll never know.
- [32:37]
Kate Lister
No.
- [32:38]
Kristen Bell
And that's what's so endlessly fascinating about it, and it continues to captivate people. It's kind of quite remarkable.
- [32:45]
Kate Lister
Maybe it wasn't sexual. Maybe they couldn't get married, but it sort of doesn't mean that they weren't in a relationship and didn't love each other. We sort of have this obsession with, well, if you're not having sex, it's not official somehow, but they seem to have had a very strong bond between them.
- [33:00]
Kristen Bell
Yeah, I think that's very true. And I think also, I mean, you could argue that because it was a kind of forbidden relationship in terms of any full sexually intimate relationship, that that made it more attractive, that there was something that was kind of exciting about it. Elizabeth was a woman who had a huge amount of men wanting to give her advice. She had so many men around her at court that I, you know, in so many ways we can't get in the head of somebody 500 years ago, but in some ways we kind of can. I mean, we can imagine that this is a young woman who is both, you know, absolutely the center of power, but is also being maneuvered in all kinds of directions. And who she could trust, who she could have fun with must have been also part of the stuff of politics. And so I think we have to see the relationship as a key part of her reign as it was, you know, in terms of her trusting and being attracted to Robert, whatever form that attraction took.
- [34:05]
Kate Lister
So we've got at this point quite a young Elizabeth. She's very beautiful, she's super smart, she's Queen of England. I mean that, wow, if you want a wife, that she's a very, very tempting option. She must have had suitors flinging themselves at her. Robert Dudley just sat there having a bit of a sulk to himself. He's a no go. But who was vying for her hand in marriage. And was there ever any serious contenders?
- [34:31]
Kristen Bell
There was. I mean, there was, as you say, I mean, she was a huge prospect. I mean, basically there was a whole cast of characters. Because the bottom line is, as you say, she's the Queen of England, she's a big deal. Perhaps the first and perhaps most surprising, perhaps not suitor for her was Philip of Spain.
- [34:49]
Kate Lister
Oh, him again.
- [34:51]
Kristen Bell
Yeah, I know. Just to keep it in the family. He was of course, her brother in law or ex brother in law. He had been married to Mary. And so when Mary died, first of all, Philip, I think probably with his fingers behind his back. Cause he really didn't, you know, hoping that she'd say no, but because he wanted to preserve the alliance with England and potentially hope that he would persuade Elizabeth from moving back into a Protestant Direction. He offered to marry Elizabeth. So he's ex sister in law. So Philip of Spain was one candidate. There was also Eric of Sweden, Eric XIV of Sweden. Sweden was a Protestant country, so that kind of made sense. He negotiated for her hand for the first few years of his reign, but then she wrote to him and sort of said that she actually didn't reciprocate his feelings. She rejected his advances. So it was kind of quite a personal rejection in a way. And in the end, Eric kind of eventually married one of his mistresses. He actually began to appear to be quite insane and eventually was dethroned by his brother. So he probably wouldn't have been a good. Yeah, exactly.
- [35:56]
Kate Lister
Good call, good call, Elizabeth.
- [35:58]
Kristen Bell
Then there was the Archduke Charles of Austria. Religion was an issue there because Elizabeth was Protestant and Charles of Austria Catholic. So although Elizabeth kept him kind of dangling for a while, ultimately she rejected his advances. And then I guess the other one sort of later on in the reign, which was beginning to be at the time when really she was past her best in the sense of being past her childbearing years, was Francois, the Duke of Anjou. The French heir to the throne. Could have been very good, you know, an alliance of England and France. It doesn't seem like many people would have wanted her to marry a foreigner. Some of her. Elizabeth's advisors believed it was likely to lead to some kind of religious discontent. There had been a big Protestant massacre. This is Bartholomew's Day massacre in France. So there was sort of anxiety about that. They did become close. He came over and he actually courted her in person.
- [36:53]
Kate Lister
Oh.
- [36:54]
Kristen Bell
And she perhaps rather unoriginally but rather offensively, called him her frog.
- [36:59]
Kate Lister
Nice, Elizabeth. Well done. Okay. Yeah.
- [37:01]
Kristen Bell
There was actually a 22 year age gap, so there was a bit of a Dahlia. People did for a while think he would. She would marry him. And it was actually at that point that suddenly people started talking about, oh, no, let's celebrate virginity. That's actually the most important thing here. And it was a kind of intervention going, come on, Elizabeth, why in hell would you be marrying this guy? You're not gonna have any children. It's a dead end for the country. And that's when we begin to see, yes. The kind of styling of virginity and the image of the Virgin Queen coming to the fore.
- [37:30]
Kate Lister
Wasn't Anjou. Wasn't he the one that. There was lots of rumours about his sexuality?
- [37:35]
Kristen Bell
Absolutely.
- [37:36]
Kate Lister
So was that just a smear campaign?
- [37:38]
Kristen Bell
Well, there was always. Yeah, I mean, that was part of it. I mean, there was a lot of opposition to the prospect of this marriage to a French guy, to someone who was 22 years. You know, there was an age gap of 22 years younger that it was ultimately would have put England in a very vulnerable position to France. So, yeah, I think everything was kind of thrown at him in terms of slander and smear to try and dissuade the Queen. In the end, of course, she didn't go ahead with the marriage, so she wasn't short of suitors. She kept her Parliament and her council, who were constantly begging her to marry, basically on hold for most of her reign, refusing to engage with the question and, in fact, stop, you know, preventing them or trying to prevent them from raising it with her. And she had all these various suitors that she sort of dallied with for a while, but ultimately dropped them and ended up unmarried.
- [38:26]
Kate Lister
At any point did she make a big announcement of, like, right, I'm not getting married, that's it, stop nagging me. Or did the question just stop being raised? Eventually, yeah, I mean, I think the.
- [38:35]
Kristen Bell
Question stopped being raised and she really leant into this idea of the Virgin Queen. And one of the things, I mean, I mentioned before, there was this amazing Armada portrait, which, of course was a portrait to celebrate the Spanish armada defeat of 1588, but actually, so much of it is a statement of Elizabeth, or attempting to sort of celebrate Elizabeth's power, a time when, sure, the Spanish Armada had been defeated, but actually England and Elizabeth were pretty weak. I mean, England had a queen who was, what, in her kind of 50s, on the throne? She was unmarried. It was a political dead end. And so this really kind of ambitious refashioning and aligning of the body politic. In other words, the realm, England, that had proved impenetrable and its coastline had not being penetrated by the Spanish Armada. A parallel was drawn with that and the Queen's body, quite literally, that the queen too had. Her body was also impermeable and had been also unpenetrated. And that together, you know, there was this kind of sense of virginity being a sign of ultimate strength and unity of the Queen and her realm. And that's why you have this. This Armada portrait, not just, you know, celebrating the defeat of the Spanish Armada as it does, but actually in the background is the defeat of the Spanish Armada. And in the foreground is this massive image of Elizabeth, in many ways comparable to that Holbein, big legs, akimbo, prominent codpiece image of Henry viii. But actually the most profound statement is the bow at her groin. And whereas female bodies and sexualized sort of depictions of queens bodies was absolutely not done here, it was quite deliber because it was like, look, she's a virgin. Just like England's impenetrable boundaries and borders and that this alignment was drawn. And it was at that point that she really was celebrated as a virgin queen. And of course there was also this mask of youth whereby images that showed the queen aging were outlawed. And in fact this kind of face pattern was inserted into portraits, which we think her portraits were. I mean, essentially her ladies sat for portraits wearing her clothes, but a face pattern was inserted not to, so that she didn't show that she was aging and that by the end of her reign, then we have this image of a, of a virgin, ageless queen, the white face, et cetera, et cetera, which ultimately was a massive cover up, because what she really was underneath was actually quite weak, postmenopausal, unmarried, and the realm was going nowhere. There was no heir. And she also refused to name an heir. So it really was trying to make a virtue out of a position of profound weakness.
- [41:28]
Kate Lister
It was a big part of her brand, wasn't it? The virgin thing? It was like Joan of Arc, I guess, is like virginity becomes this strength.
- [41:36]
Kristen Bell
Yeah, absolutely. And what's really interesting is of course you're dead longer than you're alive. And the James I succeeds Elizabeth. And just a few years into his reign, so sort of three years after Elizabeth had died, Elizabeth's body that had been buried with her grandparents, Henry VII and Elizabeth of York. So the founders of the Chile dynasty, Elizabeth had, at her request, had been buried with them in Westminster Abbey in the Henry VII chapel. So she was in a vault with, with her grandparents. And it was the kind of ultimate top spot because you wanted to be with the founders of the dynasty. James, who of course was establishing the Stuart dynasty when he came to England as king of England and Scotland in 1603, he decided that he wanted that spot for when he died. And he also wanted to kind of undermine Elizabeth's reputation. So what he did was he ordered that her body be dug up and moved.
- [42:40]
Kate Lister
James.
- [42:40]
Kristen Bell
And it was, it was crazy. Yeah. And it was moved to the far aisle of the chapel where Mary I had been buried. And her coffin was pretty much sort of just dumped there. And there was no kind of monument, no tomb. He put Elizabeth's body on top and he then did build a monument and he kind of acknowledged Elizabeth there and did a sort of statement of her achievements. But he also wrote in Latin, partners both in throne and grave. Here rest we two sisters in the. In the hope of one resurrection. So in other words, what he did is actually create a kind of mausoleum of barren Tudor queens. And as if to underscore the point, he moves his mother's body. Would you believe Mary Queen of Scots, who, of course, who was executed by Elizabeth I, buried at Peterborough Cathedral. He moves her body down the A1, as it were, and she is then buried on the other side of the aisle in Westminster Abbey in a line of fertile women. So in other words, women who have kind of passed on the dynasty, done their deed and so her position is reinstated. So in fact, it's sort of like he exposes the reality of Elizabeth's virginity that, you know, you can dress it up as you like, but you know, just like Mary, I was barren, didn't have any children, so too Elizabeth was. And those two women are kind of shunned on the side aisle and his mother is in a line of fertile women on the other aisle, which I think is pretty scandalous, pretty amazing and a bit of royal tomb raiding there.
- [44:17]
Kate Lister
Elizabeth would have been absolutely fuming, wouldn't she? I'll be back with Anna after this short break.
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Kristen Bell
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- [46:16]
Kate Lister
So the million dollar question then that I've got to ask you, and I know you're gonna say, we just don't know. Was she actually a virgin? Did she go to her grave having never experienced sexual contact?
- [46:27]
Kristen Bell
Well, of course, we don't know. And she also didn't want her body opened up in death. She didn't want her body to be, as was the practice opened up, the organs taken out, filled with preservatives. And some people say, well, actually, was that because she had some kind of physical impediment that meant that she didn't want to be discovered? That she perhaps was the reason why she didn't want to marry and didn't want to have children? Or did she not want there to be evidence of, in fact, that she wasn't a virgin? We don't know. I mean, we just. We don't know. I mean, if I had to bet on it, I would say she was a virgin, but I've got nothing to base that on other than the stakes were pretty high for her if she had got pregnant or been discovered to have lost her virginity outside of marriage. So. But that's not to say she didn't decide to risk it.
- [47:20]
Kate Lister
I think we can say with some confidence that she had not lovers, as in physical lovers, but people that she loved romantically.
- [47:27]
Kristen Bell
Yeah, I think that's fair to say. And I think, you know, she was a woman, of course, who lived right through to her 60s. So, I mean, you know, she'd lived pretty long and full life. So for her not to have had sex at any point perhaps would have been pretty remarkable, but perhaps proved to be the case. We ultimately won't know.
- [47:52]
Kate Lister
We won't, will we? Anna, I have got a quiz for you. I've written one. Oh, my God. I've written one. Don't worry. This is insanely easy. What I have done here is I have trawled the deepest, darkest corners of the Internet, Reddit forums and history facts, Facebook pages, to find as many claims about the Tudors as I can. And I found 10. And you can just say true or false.
- [48:16]
Kristen Bell
Okay, okay.
- [48:18]
Kate Lister
All right, so look, I've got my flashcards and everything. So number one, Elizabeth, I was actually a man.
- [48:24]
Kristen Bell
I mean, false, but interesting. And there was all kinds of stories about that. And do you know what that is? A question that I got asked a lot when I was in America on tour. Really? Yeah, absolutely. There was this whole idea that she'd been swapped.
- [48:38]
Kate Lister
That's it. Yeah.
- [48:38]
Kristen Bell
As a sort of child. And that she'd grown up, in fact, as a man and that's why she didn't marry. And it was all a disguise. So it sounds bonkers, but it's a story that has got a long history. It was this whole mid 19th century kind of grave that was found in the mid 19th century. And this whole thing about the Bisley boy legend, that's probably what you came across.
- [49:01]
Kate Lister
Yeah, that's the one.
- [49:02]
Kristen Bell
So, yeah, really fascinating, but no evidence to say it was true, but I love the idea of it.
- [49:09]
Kate Lister
It was fashionable for rich Tudors to paint their teeth black because Elizabeth had black teeth.
- [49:14]
Kristen Bell
Not that I know of.
- [49:15]
Kate Lister
Yep. Did she actually have black teeth? Is that true? Is that her teeth rotted away?
- [49:19]
Kristen Bell
She did, like, sweet things. Kind of sweet things. Custards and all of that. So she did have bad teeth.
- [49:24]
Kate Lister
Okay. Mary Boleyn, Anne Boleyn's sister, was shagging the king of France before she was shagging Henry viii.
- [49:29]
Kristen Bell
Very possibly.
- [49:31]
Kate Lister
Possibly, yeah. Marmalade was invented for Mary Queen of Scots.
- [49:35]
Kristen Bell
Oh, I don't know.
- [49:36]
Kate Lister
I don't think that one is true. Most of what I saw about that one was people going, no, that's not true.
- [49:41]
Kristen Bell
Yeah, Anne of Cleves was ugly Flanders mare. That's what Henry VIII was alleged to have said about her. So, yes, that's the argument. And annulled because they never had sex.
- [49:52]
Kate Lister
Elizabeth I had a bath once a year whether she needed it or not.
- [49:56]
Kristen Bell
Well, that is also said. And certainly people bathe very irregularly and certainly not like we do. So that is probably close to being true. People believe that actually almost wearing cottons was the thing that would absorb the bad odours and stuff. So you didn't need to wash like we do. So very possibly true. Or at least something like that.
- [50:17]
Kate Lister
Certainly not a shower a day kind of a girl.
- [50:20]
Kristen Bell
No, no, no, no.
- [50:21]
Kate Lister
Henry VIII wrote green sleeves for Anne Boleyn.
- [50:24]
Kristen Bell
Yeah. Henry VIII was a great musician and composer, and, yeah, Greensleeves is linked to him. I mean, there's no evidence that he, in fact wrote it, but certainly it was. It's long been attributed to him and Anne Boleyn. So whether he played it for whether he wrote it, it's very associated with him. So we haven't landed the evidence that you know, his composition, but certainly very much in Alive in Legend. And popular culture that it was one of his compositions.
- [50:57]
Kate Lister
Henry VIII had syphilis.
- [50:58]
Kristen Bell
Yeah. I mean, he had all kinds of things. I mean, he had gout. Oozing legs. Yes. I think probably syphilis too.
- [51:05]
Kate Lister
Throw that one in there. You'd be surprised if he didn't. Oh, this is a good one. Anne Boleyn had six fingers on one hand. Is that true?
- [51:11]
Kristen Bell
I have not seen evidence of Bob. No. I think this is all part of the kind of folklore about her. So I haven't seen evidence. I think we're sort of slightly in the idea of myth territory.
- [51:25]
Kate Lister
And finally, this is a very strange one. There was a spy who worked for Elizabeth I with the code name 007.
- [51:31]
Kristen Bell
Oh, now she did. People did have spy names and so very possibly people had different initials. And I think her kind of astrologer Advisor, John Dee, had 007. So that's bonkers. Yes, that is very possible. Yeah, it's great, isn't it?
- [51:49]
Kate Lister
That's incredible. And Those were the 10 weirdest claims about the shooters that I could find on the Internet. Thank you very much.
- [51:56]
Kristen Bell
Great questions. They're hard to disprove one way or the other because they're just kind of powerful things take on their own life just by being repeated lots and lots of times. And actually trying to find the evidence to prove or disprove is quite difficult. But that doesn't stop them being out there as part of the legend.
- [52:12]
Kate Lister
No. Anna, you have been wonderful to talk to. Thank you so much. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?
- [52:20]
Kristen Bell
So I have a website I'm on X and I also pop up on various podcasts and television programs and do various bits of commentary on the monarchy. And my latest book is called the Sun Rising, James the First and the dawn of a Global Britain. And a bit of a kind of global adventure story about the emergence of Britain around the world.
- [52:42]
Kate Lister
Thank you so much for coming to talk to me. I've thoroughly enjoyed myself.
- [52:46]
Kristen Bell
Pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
- [52:48]
Kate Lister
Foreign thank you for listening and thank you to Anna for joining us. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and follow along whatever it is that you get. Your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us@betwixtory hit.com. we have got a whole load more Queen sex coming your way this month featuring none other than Queen Victoria, Marie Antoinette, Anthony and Catherine the great. Just what did those fabulous ladies get up to? Betwixt the Sheets this podcast was edited by Tom Delaghi and produced by Sophie G. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again. Betwixt the Sheets the History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound. Ben hadn't had a decent night's sleep in a month, so during one of his restless nights, he booked a package trip abroad on Expedia. When he arrived at his beachside hotel, he discovered a miraculous bed slung between two trees and fell into their best sleep of his life. You were made to be rechargeable. We were made to package flights and hotels and hammocks for less. Expedia Made to travel.
- [54:09]
Kristen Bell
Not all meals are created equal.
- [54:12]
Kate Lister
For instance, breakfast has the spicy egg McMuffin for a limited time, and lunch does it.
- [54:19]
Kristen Bell
McDonald's breakfast is perfect.