Sex Lives of Presidents

Summary

Betwixt The Sheets: “Sex Lives of Presidents” – Episode Summary

Podcast Title: Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Host: Kate Lister
Guest: Eleanor Herman, Author of Sex with Presidents
Release Date: November 5, 2024

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society, host Kate Lister delves into the intimate and often controversial sexual lives of U.S. Presidents. Joined by Eleanor Herman, an esteemed sex historian and author of Sex with Presidents, the discussion navigates through the tangled web of power, infidelity, and historical legacy associated with America’s most powerful men.

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Power and Sexuality: The Hubris Syndrome

Lister opens the conversation by posing a thought-provoking question about the correlation between political power and sexual infidelity:

Kate Lister [08:43]: "Why are presidents so reckless and entitled when it comes to sex, risking their careers and personal lives?"

Eleanor Herman introduces the concept of Hubris Syndrome, a psychological disorder recognized by the psychiatric community in 2009, characterized by excessive pride and the belief in one's invincibility, particularly prevalent among long-term holders of power.

Eleanor Herman [06:55]: "Hubris Disorder is triggered by wielding power over time and subsides once power is lost. It affects both men and women, but manifests differently."

Herman explains that while female leaders exhibit signs of hubris through domineering behavior, male leaders often display sexual recklessness, leading to scandals that can jeopardize their legacies and administrations.

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Historical Case Studies

George Washington: A Monogamous Myth?

Lister begins with George Washington, the first U.S. President, challenging the popular myth of his purity:

Eleanor Herman [09:32]: "The alleged affair between George Washington and Sally Fairfax is more of a 'nothing burger.' Washington wrote affectionate letters but never acted on his crush. He married Martha Custis and maintained a seemingly monogamous relationship."

Herman concludes that Washington was likely "very boring sexually," debunking rumors of infidelity and emphasizing his commitment to his marriage.

Thomas Jefferson: Troubled Legacy

Transitioning to Thomas Jefferson, Herman paints a starkly different picture:

Eleanor Herman [11:01]: "Jefferson, despite his brilliance, was not a decent human being. He fathered seven children with Sally Hemings, an enslaved woman, starting when she was just 16."

Lister probes the societal context:

Kate Lister [12:01]: "Was Jefferson’s relationship with Hemings scandalous at the time, given he was a slave owner?"

Herman explains that while such relationships were not uncommon among slave owners, Jefferson faced criticism in non-slaveholding regions. DNA evidence later substantiated Jefferson’s paternity of Hemings’ children, solidifying the historical account.

John F. Kennedy: The Archetype of Presidential Infidelity

No discussion on presidential sex lives would be complete without addressing JFK, whom Herman identifies as the worst offender:

Eleanor Herman [15:52]: "JFK epitomizes sexual depravity in power. His numerous affairs, including high-profile mistresses like Judith Campbell, were reckless and jeopardized national security."

Lister emphasizes the pathological nature of Kennedy’s behavior:

Kate Lister [24:29]: "JFK was sexually morally repugnant, using women as a conveyor belt without regard for their well-being."

Herman details the implications of JFK’s actions, highlighting security risks from his interactions with women who might have been spies, and the internal chaos it caused within the White House.

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LGBTQ+ Presidents: Breaking the Binary

Exploring beyond heterosexual infidelity, Lister introduces the topic of LGBTQ+ relationships among presidents:

Kate Lister [27:02]: "Has there ever been a gay president?"

Herman discusses James Buchanan, the only lifelong bachelor U.S. President, speculating on his relationship with William Rufus King:

Eleanor Herman [27:18]: "Buchanan and King were lifelong partners, often socialized as a couple, but definitive evidence of a romantic relationship remains speculative."

Regarding Abraham Lincoln, Herman debunks rumors of a homosexual relationship with Joshua Speed, attributing their close friendship to the era’s common sleeping arrangements rather than a romantic bond.

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Female Leaders and the Sexual Scandal Gap

Lister questions why female leaders seemingly lack similar sexual scandals:

Kate Lister [39:15]: "Why haven’t female leaders experienced the same sexual scandals?"

Herman attributes this disparity to societal double standards:

Eleanor Herman [39:28]: "Women in power face vastly different standards. A female Prime Minister with multiple partners wouldn’t be tolerated the way male counterparts have been."

She underscores that while men’s overweening sexuality in power positions attracts scandal, female leaders remain largely scandal-free, highlighting the persistent gender biases in societal expectations.

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Modern Implications: Will History Repeat?

As the episode concludes, Lister and Herman ponder the future of political scandals in the digital age:

Kate Lister [37:20]: "With the internet and tabloid journalism, will modern presidents learn from historical lessons, or will they continue their reckless behavior?"

Herman remains pessimistic:

Eleanor Herman [37:50]: "Hubris Syndrome is too ingrained. Modern scrutiny hasn’t significantly curbed the entitlement and recklessness of powerful men. Additionally, voter priorities have shifted, often overlooking personal scandals in favor of political interests."

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Concluding Insights

In wrapping up, Lister and Herman highlight rare instances of presidential fidelity and strong marital bonds, citing Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan as examples:

Eleanor Herman [39:58]: "Jimmy and Rosalind Carter had an 80-year marriage—one of the sweetest political partnerships. Similarly, the Reagans adored each other, with their strong bond not attracting scandal."

Herman emphasizes that such relationships, free from infidelity, stand out precisely because they defy the prevalent patterns among powerful men.

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Betwixt The Sheets provides a nuanced exploration of the intersection between power and sexuality in American presidential history. Through Eleanor Herman’s scholarly insights and Kate Lister’s engaging questioning, listeners gain a deeper understanding of how personal lives can both influence and reflect broader societal norms and political dynamics.

For those intrigued by this discussion, Eleanor Herman can be reached at eleanorherman.com for more information on her research and publications.

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Produced by Stuart Beckwith and edited by Tom Delaghi, this episode is part of the Betwixt The Sheets series by History Hit.

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

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[Eleanor Herman]

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[Kate Lister]

Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. I am here. You are here. Everybody's here. And also the lawyers are here, which is why I have to tell you this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult, too. And now, now you have to consider that your fair dues. Warning. You have been warned. We're gonna get spicy. Okay, if you're still here, on with the show. Hello, Betwixters. I've got my voice down because I'm currently hidden in the stationary cupboard in the White House. I only came in for a pen, honest. Peeping in through the slats of the door, I can make out, who is that? And would you look at that. They appear to have some female company that is not their wife. How utterly, utterly shocking. Well, I won't give away which president I'm spying on, but let's just say it's the 1950s and this guy is known for taking liberties. I'll leave you to make your own double entendres about positions of power. But seriously, what is it about Political power and sexual infidelity. Are the two linked and how? And although I really want to know the answers to those questions, I think we need to get out of here as quickly as we can to find out.

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I make perfect copies of whatever my.

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[Kate Lister]

E R, A.

[Eleanor Herman]

R, A.

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Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

[Eleanor Herman]

Goodness.

[Kate Lister]

What beautiful dance.

[Eleanor Herman]

Goodness has nothing to do with it, Dearing.

[Kate Lister]

Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. When they're not walking the corridors of power and making decisions that can and do change the lives of millions of people, American presidents have also been known to dabble in the occasional once in a while, oh so rare extramarital affairs. Mm. The lawyers told me to phrase that one very carefully. As we published this episode on November 5th, the day of the American election, all I can say to our American listeners is, good luck, guys. But instead of focusing on the present, we will look to the past, because it is always worth hearing about the presidents of the past and their sometimes shocking and less than wholesome sex lives. Not that anybody would do anything like that today. Well, joining me today is Eleanor Herman, author of Sex with Presidents, to help us find out more about the bedroom antics of these powerful people. Ballots at the ready betwixt us. Let's do it. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Elena Harmon. How are you doing?

[Eleanor Herman]

I am so delighted to be here again talking to you, Kate. I always have such a blast.

[Kate Lister]

I know. I love every single one of them. But this one feels particularly pertinent because this episode will be going out on November 5, which in the UK is remember, remember the 5th of November when Guy Fawkes tried to blow up parliament. But for you guys, that's the day of the election. Ba. Ba. Bomb.

[Eleanor Herman]

I can't wait for it to be over. You know, as an American, I am so exhausted. I feel like for the past decade or so, I've been in a really horrible dream, very complicated and long, and I just want to wake up.

[Kate Lister]

Doesn't it just feel like it's gone on forever and ever and ever? I mean it in. I look at this stuff and I think this is a gift for future historians. In 200 years, there'll be a different Kate and Ellen are sat here trying to work out what the hell happened.

[Eleanor Herman]

Well, hopefully they'll have more clarity than we Do. It's just a confusing, horrific mess in this country.

[Kate Lister]

Well, our lawyers have told us that we're not allowed to talk about the sex lives of living presidents or potential presidents. So if anyone wants to hear about the sex lives of shame. Oh, my God, could we ever. So if anyone wants to hear that, you're going to have to come back in, like, 10 years. That's what you'll have to do. But you have written a book called Sex with the Ins and Outs of Love and Lust in the White House. What made you want to write this fascinating book, Eleanor?

[Eleanor Herman]

Well, my first book was Sex with Kings, and I looked at the sex lives of, you know, European royals. The second book was Sex with the Court Queen. My third book was pretty much Sex in the Vatican. And then I did a lot of other books, and then this came out in 2020, sex with presidents. I figured I should turn my attention to US History and really did a deep dive. You know, I'm more expert on European history, and I was shocked to learn, you know, a lot about my own nation's history.

[Kate Lister]

Do you think that it's kind of. It's a weird one because most of us have sex. Most of us have sex, but there is something about power and sex that goes together. Do you think with all the research you've done around kings and queens and presidents, that something happens when you get given that much power when it comes to sex?

[Eleanor Herman]

Yes, it's true. There's actually a psychological disorder. It was really accepted as such by the psychiatric community in 2009 called Hubris Disorder.

[Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Eleanor Herman]

Unlike most mental illnesses which develop in early adulthood, this one is triggered by wielding power over a period of time. And when that individual loses power, the illness subsides.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, my God.

[Eleanor Herman]

And some of the characteristics of the disorder are recklessness, narcissism, believing that you're some kind of a messiah, that God has appointed you and you can do nothing wrong, not listening to the very good advice of your cabinet, feeling that you're a kind of God, only you can save the nation. The interesting thing about it is it affects women as well as men. I mean, if you look at Maggie Thatcher in her last year or two, she was whacking that handbag of hers on the cabinet table, threatening to fire everybody. It happened with Golda Meir. It happened with Indira Gandhi. With men, however, the sexual recklessness comes into play. I haven't found in my research that any national female leader was, say, a jfk, for instance.

[Kate Lister]

That makes sense to me because one of the questions I was going to ask you, as we're going through this, is why are they so stupid when it comes to sex? I know we haven't spoken about anyone in particular yet, but this will become a theme as we're going along. The recklessness of it and the entitlement of it and the fact that at any point, if this scandal got out, it could bring down a government. I've never understood why people risk that.

[Eleanor Herman]

They think that they can get away with anything. Their minds are not working. There's no logic there. They think even if it gets out, it won't really matter. Everyone loves them. They're this messianic figure. But they do risk everything. Their family, their legacy, their political career. It's really crazy.

[Kate Lister]

I was talking to my friend about this just the other day, and she just looked at me and she said, kate, there is nothing stupider on this planet than a horny man. And I thought, maybe that's true, but I'm glad that it actually has a name. Like, what was that? Hubris syndrome? So let's talk about one of the big American presidents. The first one, actually, I think George Washington. What do I know about George Washington? He was tall and he had false teeth. That's what I know about him.

[Eleanor Herman]

And he actually did not cut down a cherry tree or was it an apple tree? But anyway, this story about George Washington and his so called love affair is really a nothing burger. There's really no there there. And I'm surprised that this is actually a thing. The story is when he was a young man, late teens, early 20s, he was staying with his brother Lawrence at Mount Vernon, and they would often visit their neighbors, which was George Fairfax, who was a fabulously wealthy British gentleman, and his young and pretty wife, Sally. This couple would educate Washington on good manners and polite society, which I think indicates he must have been a bit of a hayseed. They would provide him with books to read. He developed quite a crush on the wife Sally, and nothing happened. And when he was 25, he married Martha Custis. And the two couples socialized till 1773 when the Fairfaxes returned to England. And he did write Sally a couple of letters saying that some of the happiest moments in his life had been spent in her company. And that's it.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, okay. That doesn't sound too scandalous. There. Doesn't sound. So there might not be too many skeletons in George's closet there.

[Eleanor Herman]

I don't think there's a one, really. I think he was probably very boring sexually.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Eleanor Herman]

All right.

[Kate Lister]

So George. Okay, let's move across to Thomas Jefferson.

[Eleanor Herman]

Right, so Thomas Jefferson, though he was a founding father of the United States and a brilliant man in several different respects, he was really not a decent human being, in my view. I was shocked to discover that. But he had an enslaved woman named Sally Hemings. He had gotten her pregnant when she was 16. She ended up having seven children with him. And when he was president in the first decade of the 1800s, his political opponents got a tabloid journalist to dig into this story. I mean, many people knew about it. You know, they would see his son who looked just like him.

[Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Eleanor Herman]

And so these stories got out there. But, you know, Jefferson was such a successful president in many ways, and he doubled the size of the country by organizing the Louisiana Purchase. And so in the next election, people, the voters just didn't really care that he had this relationship.

[Kate Lister]

Was it scandalous at the time? I mean, I know that he was the president and his political enemies will have been on the hunt for anything that they could get their teeth into. But a slave owner having a family with an enslaved woman, how scandalous would that have been at the time?

[Eleanor Herman]

Well, I think it was quite common. Quite common indeed. I think the difference with Jefferson is that he was president and there were certainly people who, who disapproved, especially up in the non slaveholding states in New England, for instance, they thought it was pretty disgusting.

[Kate Lister]

It's just awful. The thing that I can't get my head around that, I mean, it's just, you just keep going and it just gets worse and worse. But how could you enslave your own children? That blows my mind.

[Eleanor Herman]

I think he wanted them around him. He promised her. They were in France. He was the US ambassador. When she first became pregnant at 16, she had gone there with his to bring his daughter over. And he told her, you know, she knew that if she stayed in France, she would be free because France did not recognize slavery. And he said, if you come back with me, I'll, you know, provide for you and the child and I'll free all the children when they're 21. Well, she ended up having seven kids. Four of them survived infancy. And, you know, when they were 21, there was no freedom. Now he did not put them in the fields or in the very arduous tasks. He taught them how to be carpenters so they had skills, they could earn money. Some of them, you know, served in the, in the house. But, you know, at a certain point, they all just left without his permission. They just, they just left Two of them could pass as white, and they. They changed their names and disappeared.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. And what happened to Sally? What do we know about her? Sally Hemings? Was she ever freed? Did he ever free her?

[Eleanor Herman]

She was. There was a legal thing that they did where she was just sort of freed, and that's what happened to her. But, you know, he spent his last few years entertaining lavishly, and he did not have the money. And he knew as he was getting older that when he died, hundreds of his enslaved people were going to be put on the auction block and sold off, and families split up, and that's exactly what happened to them. Instead of, you know, trying to free them, which wasn't always easy at the time, legally, he just figured out, you know, they'd be sold, and then the money would go to his daughters, pay off his debts. Wow. For entertaining.

[Kate Lister]

And at the time, this seems like it was quite a scandal. It seems like it's quite an open secret. But it was one of those kind of. Did they, didn't they? What was really going on? Is it just a vicious rumor for a long, long time? But they did actually prove this with DNA evidence, didn't they, that this is what happened?

[Eleanor Herman]

Yeah. When DNA first came out in the 90s, there were tests done. You know, the thing about DNA is sometimes it just gives you a general idea of where the DNA came from. So people who did not want to believe our founding father had all these children with his enslaved woman said it could be his brother, you know, and according to the DNA, it could have been the brother. Except Thomas Jefferson kept a list every day of everything that went on in his household, on his plantation, who visited, how long they stayed. His brother lived some distance away, and, you know, over. Over a period of a couple decades, he visited a handful of times, not one of which would have been around the timeframe when Sally Hemings got pregnant. So I think it's really safe to say that Thomas Jefferson was the first. Virgil, I think.

[Kate Lister]

I think we can go on a limb and say that. I think I would agree with you there, Eleanor. Right, so he, Thomas Jefferson is a jerk, then. And that would be putting it very, very mildly. Is he the worst one that you found in your research? Was he the worst one that just made you go, oh, God, no, no, put it away. Keep it in your pants. You're horrible, man?

[Eleanor Herman]

The worst one was jfk.

[Kate Lister]

We have spoken about JFK before, and he didn't ever, ever stay faithful to his wife, Jackie. Like, not even a little bit did he.

[Eleanor Herman]

Not even on the honeymoon, Kate.

[Kate Lister]

Jesus Christ.

[Eleanor Herman]

They were at a. They went to Mexico for their honeymoon, and they were at a very lovely soiree at some wealthy person's house, and he disappeared into a guest room with a blonde while Jackie's standing there feeling like a complete idiot.

[Kate Lister]

Like, it is pathological. Like when in the episode that you came on and we spoke specifically about jfk, is that when you're laying it all out, I'm actually hearing it thinking, these aren't the actions of a well man. Like, this isn't normal behavior by any means. This is weird behavior.

[Eleanor Herman]

Well, you know, in the White House, just as in Buckingham palace, the male leader and the spouse each had separate bedroom suites. So there's the president's side of the residence and then the First Lady's. So when Jackie was away, which was frequently, she just needed to get away from him. JFK would bring women up. Do you think he took them to his own bed?

[Kate Lister]

Oh, no. Oh, I would hope that he did.

[Eleanor Herman]

He did not. He always took them to Jackie's bed where they would have sex on her bed. And then the staff. And this is the weirdest part, which I don't get. They wouldn't change the show. I don't know if they weren't. He didn't want them to. Or if he used so many pairs of sheets every day with these women that they just didn't have enough of a supply. So the staff would have to pick hairs and bobby pins off of the sheets, and they would often complain, why didn't he bed brunettes? Because then Jackie would just think, well, they're my hairs and my bobby pins. But he always seemed to take blondes. One night, Jackie found a pair of underpants under her pillow, and she fished it out and said to her husband, can you find the owner of these? These are not my size.

[Kate Lister]

Jesus. Wow. So Jackie knew. I mean, how could she not know what he was up to? But she was. She kind of did that thing that a lot of women married to powerful men have done down the years and sort of made their peace with the fact that, yeah, if he stands still long enough, he's gonna have a go at it.

[Eleanor Herman]

Yes. She became severely depressed. You know, she had been warned before the marriage by his friends who really liked her, saying, you know, this is not a good idea. He's never going to be faithful to you. I mean, not on day one. And she saw it as a challenge and thought, you know, wealthy and powerful men may have an affair.

[Kate Lister]

I'll change him.

[Eleanor Herman]

Yeah, she thought she would change him, or maybe he'd have an affair now and then. I think she had no idea how sick his sexual behavior was. But, you know, she got depressed. And back in the 60s, doctors were just prescribing pills, uppers, downers, all kinds, kinds of pills. And so she got addicted to pills because of her depression.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Eleanor after this short break.

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[Kate Lister]

Why didn't the press get Kennedy on this? Because like any journalist, they wouldn't have even need to research this. Very hard to have discovered. Hang on. The President is running around America like a dog with two penises here. Like why didn't that hit the press? Why wasn't that a scandal?

[Eleanor Herman]

I'll tell you why. It's a very fascinating story. Ever since the advent of newspapers Pamphlets, broadsheets. In the 1500s, the press had been very salacious, always seeking scandal because it sold them right. Printers and publishers made a lot of money from these stories, whether it's witches in New England in the 1600s or the sex lives of kings throughout all of those centuries. And then about 1900, journalists decided that they were going to be, you know, more respectable. Okay, The National Press Club was founded about that time. And they came to a kind of agreement that they would not report on these scandalous stories that gentlemen reporters did not report on gentlemen politicians, love affairs. And so they just clammed up. They didn't report on Woodrow Wilson's mistress around the time of the first World War. They didn't report on Warren Harding in the early 1920s. He was right there behind Kennedy, I would have to say, all of his women. Franklin Delano Roosevelt had several mistresses, everyone knew. And then of course, the worst was jfk. And reporters would come into a hotel suite, see some naked actress running around or lying on the bed, and they were not allowed to report it. Now what changed? This was a few events. The Vietnam War really shook journalism. And the reporters realized how they were being lied to. Teddy Kennedy goes careening off a bridge, swims to safety, and leaves the young woman he was with to drown. That really shook a lot of journalists who knew for years he was just a drunken mess, you know, waiting to harm someone, and they had never reported it. And then the final nail in the coffin of this hands off approach to president's sexual peccadillas was Watergate. And after that, journalists felt that presidents were not to be protected and respected, but to be investigated. So suddenly all of these stories came. This was only about a decade after the JFK scandals. And those people who were witnesses to his misbehavior or were his mistresses suddenly gave press interviews, wrote books. So that's how come we know so much about jfk.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. Yeah, he's got to be up there, hasn't he, with like the most. I don't even know what the word is, because it's not the fact that he had a lot of sex. People can have a lot of sex. It's just sexually, morally repugnant with what he was doing, cheating on his wife, taking advantage of people. Like you laid it out in the last episode that you came on, like really not even being nice to these women that he's having an affair with. Really, he's just using them like a conveyor belt, right.

[Eleanor Herman]

And he did not seem to be capable of Understanding how much he was harming his wife, one of his friends said, you know, you are really hurting, Jackie. And Kennedy said, no, I'm not. I give her everything she wants.

[Kate Lister]

There you go. Look at that. Look at that.

[Eleanor Herman]

So to get back at him, she would spend wildly, and at the last minute, as first lady, she would often refuse to go to events where people were lining up, looking forward to meet her, because she knew it drove him crazy. Wow.

[Kate Lister]

And of course, you've got issues of national security. If he's having at it with anything with a pulse is, you know, sweet. What do they call him? Honey trap? Spies.

[Eleanor Herman]

Well, there are two issues of that. One is there was a potential for spies. You know, back in World War II, he was having an affair with a Swedish woman who was thought to be a spy for Hitler.

[Kate Lister]

Brilliant. Well done.

[Eleanor Herman]

The Olympics. And she thought he was a man with a very kind heart. She wrote, hitler was a man with a kind heart.

[Kate Lister]

Jesus Christ.

[Eleanor Herman]

And so the FBI bugged their sexual encounters, and so he was transferred to the Pacific. But even when he was president, 20 years later, he had an affair with a woman who was thought to be an East German spy. And another woman called Judith Campbell, known as the Mafia mole. She was the mistress of the crime boss of Chicago, the fellow who had taken over from Al Capone. So he was just setting himself up for blackmail. Completely reckless. The other security issue is that these women would show up at the White House door and say, the President invited me. And the Secret Service knew he was not gonna wait, happily, for them to check these women out. I mean, there was no Internet. I mean, how were you even gonna check these women out at the door? So they would let them up. And they were very worried, because even if they didn't have a weapon on them after sex, Kennedy would. He'd have some cold dishes prepared in the little kitchen up in the residence, and there were butcher knives up there. And the Secret Service was very much afraid they'd find the President stabbed to death in the shower one day, and there was nothing they could do about it.

[Kate Lister]

There is nothing stupider on this planet than a horny man. And JFK just exemplified. So he is an absolute dirtbag for all his politics, and he was great, and he was fabulous, but he was still sexually a dirtbag. Let's talk gay presidents. Has there ever been a gay president, Eleanor?

[Eleanor Herman]

Yes, there was one. It's not widely known. His name was James Buchanan, and he was the president before Abraham Lincoln. He's best known for just muddling politics. So Badly that he helped bring on the civil war. Soon after he left.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, whoops.

[Eleanor Herman]

He was the only US President to remain a lifelong bachelor, but that didn't mean he led a celibate life. When he was a young man, he met William Rufus King, who was what we might call flamboyantly gay. And they developed a lifelong relationship and often lived together. King was a senator from Alabama. So over the course of their 23 years as a couple, they would often socialize in Washington, and they were known as Mr. And Mrs. Buchanan or Aunt Nancy and Ms. Fancy. So those were terms usually used to denote gay men. And when King went to France to serve as U.S. ambassador in the 1840s, Buchanan wrote to a friend that he was very lonely and that he'd gone a wooing to several gentlemen, but they had all turned him down. So William Rufus King became vice president and died in 1853. And then a few years later, Buchanan became president. And when Buchanan died, his nieces and nephews went through his papers and his desk, and they were so horrified by whatever it was they found there that they lit a big bonfire in the backyard. Immediately. No, no.

[Kate Lister]

As a sex historian, how often do we read that that a family found papers after they died and then was so horrified they had to burn it? And we're always going, no.

[Eleanor Herman]

Right, right. And it happened with Warren Harding. In the early 1920s when he died, his wife found, you know, these 50 page pornographic letters that he had written and women had written him. And it took her several days. There was a big bonfire in the. In the backyard of the White House. And she'd come in after 12 hours of burning these things with soot and ashes all over her face.

[Kate Lister]

12 hours?

[Eleanor Herman]

Yeah. This went on for several days, and there were still so many more that she took all of these boxes of, you know, some of them were official White House documents to her friend's house across town. And they spent several more days burning them, which led Congress to pass the official Records act that you cannot steal or damage or destroy any official records, because there's actually very few left from the Harding administration. She had burned them all just to make sure all the pornographic stuff was gone.

[Kate Lister]

So, Buchanan, for your money, and to be honest, I think I'm going to agree with you, he was a gay man. And it seems at the time it was well known. Now, there have been rumors, just whispery, sneaky rumors about Abraham Lincoln. Maybe he was a gay man. And what do you think of that?

[Eleanor Herman]

Well, let's just examine the story and how it came about when he was a young lawyer in Springfield, Illinois. He needed a couple of rooms to rent, and he met a young man named Joshua Speed. And they became roommates, and they slept in a single bed, which was very customary for the time. People didn't have their own space the way we do now. If you were a man traveling and booked a bed in an inn, you might find two or three other people in the bed, complete strangers. Now, that didn't mean you were having a gay orgy. It just meant that's what the sleeping arrangements were for the time. Kings and queens in Europe almost always had a member of the same sex, a lady in waiting or a gentleman of the bedchamber sleeping with them, if only for warmth. In the winter, it was usually so cold. So that's the story. They had a lifelong friendship. And then in 1999, a gay activist and historian named Larry Kramer claimed that he had dug up Speed's diary and all of these salacious letters about him and his sexual relationship with Lincoln. He never showed them. And he wrote a novel shortly afterward about this relationship. I think he was just doing this hoax to sell his novel. Now, if anyone found this material, that. That should be a nonfiction work which would sell millions of copies. So I think that it's just a hoax.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Eleanor after this short break. Thanks for listening to Betwixt the Sheets. To get all History hit podcasts ad free early access and bonus episodes, head over to historyhit.com subscribe or you can sign up on Apple Podcasts with just one click.

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[Kate Lister]

The evidence for Lincoln then seems to be that he had historians always people take the mick out of us for going. They were just close friends. But he did have a very close friendship with this guy. Yes, Speed. And they shared a bed. And it wasn't just for a night. It was for quite a while that they were doing that. But that's sort of the extent of the evidence for that, isn't it, really?

[Eleanor Herman]

Yeah, they were roommates and good friends. I just. I don't see it as being a gay relationship, especially, you know, and the rumors didn't really come out till this man said he found the diary that he never showed anybody. So.

[Kate Lister]

So there were no rumors at the time. It wasn't like with Buchanan, where it was Miss Nancy and Miss Fancy.

[Eleanor Herman]

Not at all.

[Kate Lister]

Nobody at the time. Right. Okay.

[Eleanor Herman]

Okay.

[Kate Lister]

Okay. That's mildly disappointing. I was really hoping there that you would say, yeah, he was definitely a fabulous gay man. Oh, do you know, the one that I was really upset about was fdr. I thought he did stay faithful to his wife. No.

[Eleanor Herman]

And, you know, I don't blame him, to tell you the truth. I mean, that wasn't a situation like with Harding or with jfk, where they were just sexually depraved. Fdr, he married. He was a wealthy socialite in New England and New York, and he married Eleanor Roosevelt, who was a distant cousin of his, because she was just very intelligent and very serious and not like the flighty debutantes. But soon after the wedding, they realized they were just very poorly suited to one another. He loved sex. She hated it. He liked feminine, frilly women. With each year, she seemed to be getting a bit more masculine in her appearance and tastes. He had a great sense of humor. She had absolutely no sense of humor. And so over time, he fell in love with Eleanor's social secretary, Lucy Mercer, and they had an affair. And what happened was Eleanor found out and said, I'm going to divorce you. And he was very happy to divorce El, despite all of the children they had by that time. But his mother wanted him to become president and said. And she controlled the purse strings in the family. She said, you know, I'm never going to give you another dime. You're going to ruin your political career. So it was a political marriage from that point out. Eleanor never had sex with him again, and he soon started having an affair with his secretary, Missy Lehand. And then Lucy comes back into his life after he becomes president. She was actually with him the day he died in 1945. And Eleanor was aware of it and had, you know, had her own relationships, but, you know, it was a long story. Well, she had a gay affair with a woman named. Named Hick, who was a reporter for a few years. She just became too busy, I think, as first lady to keep that going. And maybe she was afraid of scandal, but, you know, she supported Hicks until her death. She got diabetes, Hicks. She went blind. And Eleanor always took care of her and loved her. And then there were some rumors about some men, some dashing men, too.

[Kate Lister]

One of the ones I want to talk to you about is. We're kind of drawing it to where we are going to have to stop talking about people because they're still alive. But Lyndon B. Johnson. Lyndon B. Johnson. Now, one of the things I do know about, or at least I read it about him, apparently he had a huge penis and he called it jumbo and liked to show it to people.

[Eleanor Herman]

Yes. When he got really mad at people when he was in the Senate or the White House, he would take it out and wave it at them, I think, as a show. So weird. Very weird. But he was very. He was a big, tall man and a rugged Texan. He was crazy about his wife, Lady Bird, but he just couldn't help himself when it came to women. One day, Lady Bird as First lady, comes walking into the Oval Office and he's there having sex with one of his secretaries on the sofa. And Lady Bird knew all about this and forgave him because she loved him and knew he couldn't help himself. So she just said, excuse me, and walked out. And Johnson was livid and had a buzzer installed so that his staff could ring it and let him know to pull his pants up by the time Lady Bird walked into the Oval Office. So that pretty much settled that.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. Okay. Going forward for this, because I'm just thinking about powerful men, presidents, and the sex that they have. Do you think that they will learn their lessons from history? Mentioning no names in particular, but there are current sex scandals around presidents or former presidents that could threaten to take down an organization. And I'm just wondering now when we've got so much tabloid journalism and the Internet and everything is under scrutiny in a way it's never been before. Do you think it'll stop them?

[Eleanor Herman]

No, I don't. I think the hubris syndrome is too strong. It is a psychological disorder. It's like telling an addict, don't take that drug, or an alcoholic, hey, don't take this drink right in front of you. I also think, despite the scandals that have erupted in the past about a candidate's sexuality, ultimately I don't think we care. When I look at, say, the Thomas Jefferson election, you know, he'd had a relationship and several children with his enslaved woman, but he doubled the size of the country and he was very popular for, you know, the country was going very strong economically. They didn't care about his sex life. People vote for in their own interests nowadays. We don't even really squeak and squawk as much as we did. I just don't think we care. When you look at certain public officials and all these scandals, people just don't care anymore. I do think it would be interesting when you look at female leaders around the world. I have never uncovered a sexual scandal with any of these women while in office or even before as far as I can remember. I mean, Maggie Thatcher, Benazir Bhutto, Golda Meir, Indira Gandhi, Theresa May, they don't have this history. I don't think that the overweening sexuality that comes with a hubris disorder and power attacks them in the same way that it does men.

[Kate Lister]

And they would never be elected in the same way. Like if a woman ran for the Prime Minister in the UK and she had multiple ex partners and ex husbands and wasn't even sure how many children she'd actually had.

[Eleanor Herman]

Right.

[Kate Lister]

There's no way she would get elected. There's just no way.

[Eleanor Herman]

Right, yeah. Which is my last book. Off with her head. 3,000 years of demonizing Women in Power. The standards are just completely different for men and women.

[Kate Lister]

And as a final question, in all the research that you've done about president sex lives, not counting any who are living, was there any that were nice? Was there any that you looked into them and you went, oh, he just really loved his partner and he just. Yeah, and he was just happy to stay at home and there was no cheating. Was there anyone like that Jimmy Carter.

[Eleanor Herman]

Who this week is celebrating his 100th birthday. He married when he was what, 19 or 20? She was 18. Rosalind, she just died a year or two ago. They were together something like 80 years. That was probably the sweetest. The Reagan's too really adored each other. And you know, the thing about these happily married presidential couples is that you don't really think about their marriages because they're not on the front pages of the newspapers.

[Kate Lister]

Eleanor, you have been wonderful to talk to again. You always are. And if people want to know more about you and your research, where can they find you?

[Eleanor Herman]

I'[e-mail] look me up. I'd be happy to hear from you.

[Kate Lister]

And we will get you back on when your next book is published. That sounds fascinating.

[Eleanor Herman]

Thank you so much.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for coming on again. You are wonderful. Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Eleanor for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you could email us@betwixt historyhit.com We've got episodes on everything from the real Sylvia Plath to gladiators, sex life lives all coming your way. This podcast was edited by Tom Delaghi and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets the History of Sex Scandal in Society, A podcast by History hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

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[Eleanor Herman]

You're starting blah.

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[Kate Lister]

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