Sex Lives of Spartans

Summary

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society Episode: Sex Lives of Spartans Release Date: February 4, 2025

In this compelling episode of Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society, host Kate Lister delves deep into the enigmatic world of ancient Sparta, exploring the intricate intersections of military prowess, societal norms, and sexual dynamics. Joined by esteemed historian Professor Helen King, the episode unpacks the myths and realities surrounding Spartan culture, challenging modern perceptions shaped by popular media like the film 300.

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1. Introduction to Spartan Society

[01:59 - 05:18]

Kate Lister opens the episode by questioning the accuracy of the modern image of Spartans as depicted in 300. She challenges listeners to consider whether the film's portrayal of Spartans—emphasizing their muscular physiques and relentless militarism—aligns with historical reality. To navigate this inquiry, Kate introduces Professor Helen King, a renowned expert on ancient Greece.

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2. Historical Background of Spartans

[05:18 - 07:48]

Professor King provides a foundational overview of Sparta, situating it within the broader context of Greek city-states. She explains that Sparta was one of classical Greece’s prominent city-states, often juxtaposed against its rival, Athens. While Athens was celebrated for its cultural and intellectual achievements, Sparta earned its reputation through its formidable military strength. Professor King notes, “The Spartans are just one of the Greek city states. They're one of the big famous ones from classical Greece...” ([05:24]).

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3. Spartan Culture and Artistic Evidence

[07:20 - 10:05]

Contrary to the belief that Spartans were devoid of cultural pursuits, Professor King highlights archaeological findings that reveal a more nuanced picture. She mentions artifacts like beautifully decorated mirror handles and references to Spartan poets, such as Alckman, known for songs performed by young maidens. “So dancing there, you see Spartans did dancing. They weren't that Spartan,” Professor King remarks ([09:03]).

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4. Perceptions and Propaganda: Athens vs. Sparta

[10:19 - 12:09]

The conversation shifts to how Athenians portrayed Spartans, often painting them as austere and militaristic. Professor King explains that much of what is known about Sparta comes from Athenian sources, which may carry inherent biases. “It's the Athenians trying to create an other against which they can set themselves,” she explains ([10:19]). This propaganda served to elevate Athenian culture by contrasting it with the supposedly harsh Spartan lifestyle.

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5. Spartan Government Structure

[14:03 - 15:34]

Exploring the complexities of Spartan governance, Professor King reveals that Sparta's political system was a hybrid of monarchy, oligarchy, and democracy. The city-state was ruled by two kings from separate royal families, ensuring a balance of power. Additionally, the Spartiate elite governed through a system that eschewed elections in favor of random selection for magistrate positions. “There's a real mess actually, Kate. It's a mixture of the three types of constitution in the ancient world,” Professor King explains ([14:03]).

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6. Military Training and the Agoge

[16:15 - 17:58]

A cornerstone of Spartan society was the Agoge, the rigorous education and training program that began at age seven. Professor King discusses the harsh realities of this system, where young boys were stripped from their families to undergo intensive military training. "They were taught to steal and the idea was that they could sort of live in the wild because they could find food somewhere," she notes ([21:48]). Despite the brutality, some scholars suggest that training might have been less severe than traditional accounts portray, with boys possibly returning home in the evenings.

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7. Decline of the Spartan Dominance

[12:24 - 17:58]

The episode examines the factors leading to Sparta's decline, particularly the pivotal Battle of Leuctra in 371 BC, where Sparta suffered a significant defeat to Thebes. Professor King highlights the dwindling number of Spartiates—from about 8,000 in the late 5th century BC to merely 1,000 by the mid-4th century BC—as a critical factor. This decline raises questions about societal changes, property qualifications, and possible internal weaknesses within Sparta’s elite class ([12:24]).

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8. Spartan Women: Power and Perception

[25:50 - 34:47]

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to exploring the roles and perceptions of Spartan women. Unlike their Athenian counterparts, Spartan women were reputed to have more freedom and influence, largely due to the men’s constant involvement in military affairs. Professor King references Plutarch’s accounts, noting phrases attributed to Spartan women such as, “Come home with your shield or on it” ([33:31]).

Moreover, Spartan women were involved in physical training and were depicted as fit and robust, contributing to the ideal of producing strong offspring. The discussion touches on practices like the Lacedaemonian leap—a supposed Spartan method of abortion—and the societal acceptance of same-sex relationships within military contexts. “Bearing pain without actually showing pain. That's what Spartans are known for,” Professor King emphasizes ([37:39]).

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9. Same-Sex Relationships and Pederasty in Sparta

[26:09 - 32:24]

The episode delves into the nature of same-sex relationships among Spartans, paralleling practices in Athens where pederasty was institutionalized as an educational and mentorship system. Professor King discusses how Spartans, influenced by similar cultural norms, engaged in relationships between older men and younger boys, which were considered a part of their military and social training. Although these relationships were socially accepted, modern perceptions categorize them differently, reflecting the complexities of interpreting ancient practices through contemporary lenses ([26:09]).

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10. Myths vs. Reality: Infanticide and Spartan Practices

[17:58 - 20:04]

Addressing the controversial topic of infanticide, Professor King scrutinizes the claim that Spartans routinely exposed unwanted infants on hillsides. While such practices were common across various Greek city-states as a form of eugenics, archaeological evidence specifically supporting widespread Spartan infanticide is lacking. She points out inconsistencies in archaeological findings, suggesting that while the practice may have existed, it might not have been as prevalent or brutal as legendary accounts suggest ([19:03]).

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11. Cultural Achievements: Poetry and Dance

[33:31 - 43:17]

Despite their martial reputation, Spartans engaged in cultural activities such as poetry and dance. The episode highlights references to Spartan poets and the existence of dance as a means of demonstrating physical prowess and societal values. Displays of athleticism and performance were integral to Spartan women’s roles, reinforcing the connection between physical strength and societal expectations. “So Spartan women are thigh flashers,” notes Professor King, alluding to their portrayal in art and historical accounts ([41:35]).

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12. Legacy and Modern Depictions

[43:29 - 49:48]

Concluding the episode, Kate and Professor King reflect on the enduring legacy of Spartan imagery in modern media, particularly in 300. They discuss how the film amplifies certain aspects of Spartan culture while neglecting others, creating a simplified and often exaggerated portrayal. Professor King muses on the possibility of reimagining Spartans in contemporary narratives, suggesting that a more balanced depiction could offer a richer understanding of their society. “They probably didn't look quite like that, would they?” Kate observes, highlighting the disparity between historical evidence and cinematic representation ([44:37]).

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Key Takeaways and Notable Quotes

• Spartan Dual Kingship: “There are two kings. ... They are related, but, yeah, that was a long time ago.” ([15:34])

• Military Obsession: “They devoted their entire lives to it.” ([11:25])

• Perception of Spartan Women: “We are the only women who give birth to men.” ([33:31])

• Endurance and Stoicism: “Bearing pain without actually showing pain. That's what Spartans are known for.” ([37:39])

• Cultural Contributions: “So dancing there, you see Spartans did dancing. They weren't that Spartan.” ([09:03])

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Conclusion

Through an engaging dialogue, Kate Lister and Professor Helen King unravel the complexities of Spartan society, dispelling myths and shedding light on lesser-known facets of their culture. This episode invites listeners to reconsider preconceived notions of Sparta, recognizing it as a society with rich cultural practices and intricate social structures beyond its legendary military discipline. Whether you're a history enthusiast or simply curious about the intersections of sex, scandal, and society, this episode offers a thought-provoking exploration of the Sex Lives of Spartans.

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For More Information:

• Professor Helen King: Author of Immaculate Forms and blogger at Mistaking Histories
• Subscribe to History Hit: Access hundreds of original documentaries and ad-free podcasts at historyhit.com/subscribe

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

Hi, I'm your host Kate Lister. If you would like Betwixt the Sheets ad free and get early access, sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every single week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.

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[Kate Lister]

Hello my lovely betwixters. How the hell are you doing? Well, I'm fine, thank you very much for asking. And we are both here together to listen to betwixt the Sheets. But I do have to let you know this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way covering a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. And we have to tell you that even though quite frankly you should have worked out by now that this is a podcast of an adult nature. But if you hadn't, well, that fair Do's warning was for you. Right, on with the show. I don't know how your morning is playing out, but I am back in ancient Greece, seeing how the next generation of Spartan fighters training is coming along. It's pretty brutal. It's certainly more brutal than a Zumba class, that's for sure. There's a whole lot of pain and endurance going on and some of them are as young as seven. I mean, come on lads, take a day off. And it's not just the fellas either. Spartan women are pretty hench too, you know. But what was all this excessive military training in aid of anyway? With all this sweat and machismo, how did Spartan society take to same sex relationships? Well, stick around and we will find out.

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[Professor Helen King]

You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.

[Kate Lister]

I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the button.

[Professor Helen King]

Now.

[Kate Lister]

Era. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

[Professor Helen King]

Goodness. What a beautiful Dan. Goodness has nothing to do with it, dearie.

[Kate Lister]

Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. Let's address the elephant in the room right away. We've all seen the film 300 and all of those rippling biceps and abs and frankly, if that's all you know about Spartan culture, you may not want to keep listening, you may want to hold on to that fantasy. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. But was any of that based on what really happened to Spartans in ancient Greece? Did they really look that good? Did their elite views of what the human body is capable of influence their views on sex and sexuality? And did the Spartan woman invent the miniskirt? Joining me today is a friend of the show and an absolute master of all things ancient and Greek, Professor Helen King. And she is going to help us get to know the Spartans a little bit better. Shields and spears at the ready, guys. Let's do this. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, it's only Helen King. How are you doing?

[Professor Helen King]

I'm doing great, thanks, Kate.

[Kate Lister]

Well, thank you so much for coming back because we are going to talk about. This is a fascinating subject. The Spartans, possibly of all the Greeks, of all the Greek culture, they have got that reputation. Do I want to say sexy? I might say sexy. Kind of like warrior like. And maybe I'm just thinking of 300.

[Professor Helen King]

We're all thinking of 300. We've never recovered from seeing 300 is.

[Kate Lister]

This a reputation that is well deserved? Were they a particularly sexy race? I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm getting well ahead of myself. We should first of all start with before we get to 300 and were they sexy? Who were they? Who were the Spartans?

[Professor Helen King]

Okay, well, that's a great question. So the Spartans are just one of the Greek city states. They're one of the big famous ones from classical Greece, the sort of 5th century to 4th century period. And they're the big rivals of Athens. So it's always Athens versus Sparta. But then Athens and Sparta unite together with other Greek city states against Persia. Who's like the really big enemy? As if you've seen 300. Of course, the Persian king is the guy with all the piercings, which are not very historical, but they're quite fun. So it's sort of Athens versus Sparta, the big enemies, but then sometimes they'll unite against Persia as the even bigger enemy.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Professor Helen King]

That sort of summarize it. So they're basically like any other. They're like any other Greek city state. You know, they have their own territory, they defend it, they have their own army. They will sometimes unite with other city states against another one because they're always in flux. You know, Greek history is all about different city states overcoming each other. The thing about Sparta is we actually haven't got a lot of archaeological evidence for it. Rather less than for some other parts of Greece.

[Kate Lister]

I was going to ask, does it still exist today? Can you still.

[Professor Helen King]

Yeah, it does. It does still exist today. But it's not like Athens where you go and you've got the Parthenon on the Acropolis, you've got all the big stuff. Modern Sparta is quite low key and that's one of the problems because in Athens they're always digging things up to build a new underground station system or something. So they keep finding stuff, archaeological stuff. Sparta has not been excavated to the same extent, therefore we don't know as much about it in terms of its material culture, its artifacts, its art and so on.

[Kate Lister]

And when were they knocking around the Spartans? When was their heyday?

[Professor Helen King]

The heyday seems to be anything from the 7th century BC up to the 5th century. So we know a lot more about them in the fifth century because that's when Athens and Sparta went to war. So they start to talk about each other more, or at least Athens talks about Sparta. The other problem with Sparta is we haven't got much in the way of texts from Sparta. They don't write their history. We've Only got what Athens says about it.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, and they were always fighting each other. That's a tricky one.

[Professor Helen King]

Bit of a bias issue there, I think. But what the Spartans appear to have had was an ancestral lawgiver, a guy called Lycurgus, who was supposed to be responsible for giving them all their customs and laws and everything sometime in the distant, distant past. We don't know anything about him, except we do have a Life of Lycurgus by the Roman writer Plutarch, who was writing in the Roman Empire. So centuries ahead.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Professor Helen King]

And quite where he got his information from remains a mystery. So there's a sort of a myth of this lawgiver who sets up the whole system in Sparta. We don't know how much of that has got any historical accuracy or indeed when a lot of it was constructed as a story. So there's a really big source problem, which we'll keep coming up against.

[Kate Lister]

I suppose when you've got a source problem, it creates a vacuum into which you can put any old thing that sounds interesting and flashy. They have a reputation that when you say something Spartan today, we mean, like, there's no frills, it's basic. But a bit more than that, like, it's rough and brutal, like, oh, it's Spartan. Where did that reputation come from and is that deserved?

[Professor Helen King]

We're back to the source problem. So because we really don't have much in the way of Spartan artwork, we tend to think, oh, yeah, they didn't really like culture, they liked simplicity and sort of raw stuff. But actually there are a few artifacts from ancient Sparta that survive, like some really beautiful mirror handles, because ancient mirrors were sort of burnished metal and decorated handles and they were gorgeous. And you think, well, that doesn't look like Sparta. And then things like poetry and theater, which we associate mostly with Athens, we do have names for a couple of Spartan poets. It's just that we don't have the evidence. The only poet we have evidence for is a guy called Alckman, and he's most famous for songs which maidens would sing, young girls would sing as they sort of learnt to dance and sort of generally show off their gorgeousness. So dancing there, you see Spartans did dancing. They weren't that Spartan.

[Kate Lister]

No, they don't seem to have been that Spartan.

[Professor Helen King]

So who.

[Kate Lister]

Who's saying that, then? Is that an Athens thing? Is that. Yeah, them defining themselves against the Spartans, like, we're all luxurious and beautiful and kind of sexy and they're just kind of, you know, living in mud Huts.

[Professor Helen King]

Yeah, exactly. It's the Athenians trying to create an other against which they can set themselves. We're what a system should be like. We are proper civilization. They are just sort of raw, basic mud huts, you know, crude. And of course, the other thing there is that the Athenian view of Sparta, which again we have inherited, is that they're all about the army.

[Kate Lister]

Yes.

[Professor Helen King]

The simplicity is all about military strength and not faffing about with things like poetry and theater because you've got to get on with being a soldier.

[Kate Lister]

How true is that then? Because if anyone knew about fighting the Spartans, it would be the Athenians. So even though they're biased, they might have a bit of a insider knowledge of that one then. And they do have that reputation as being a bunch of badasses who you wouldn't want to come up against in a fight.

[Professor Helen King]

Yeah. And I think that's absolutely right. So I think that the Athenians were in awe of how good the Spartans were at war and therefore had to find some sort of theory as to why they were so good at it. Yeah. Answer being they devoted their entire lives to it.

[Kate Lister]

That's why they kicked our asses. Not just because we're not very good.

[Professor Helen King]

Exactly. They were just, you know, they've been training since the age of seven, allegedly.

[Kate Lister]

Does anyone else tell us anything about this military side of Spartans or is it just Athenian writers?

[Professor Helen King]

It's the Romans too, later on. The Romans were also very hooked on Sparta as a concept of a sort of totally military society. And it's interesting, there's a sort of odd flirtation with the idea of the military society. It's like it's a really good thing, really good at it, but it's not what we really want to be. That's not what being a proper human being should be about. We should have art and culture and theater. It's a very difficult relationship there. They want to be like them, but they don't want to do the things that they do to get there.

[Kate Lister]

It's a very unfair. The question I'm about to ask you, but how much of this do you think is true? Do you think that the Spartans really were this military army obsessed group of people or do you think that that is largely propaganda?

[Professor Helen King]

I think they probably were. I know all we have from the ancient world is from other people talking about Spartans, but nevertheless, when you think about what we do know. Ish, you know, it's always an ish here. There's a consistent story here. And they were very good at fighting.

[Kate Lister]

Yes.

[Professor Helen King]

Something went badly wrong in the 4th century and they lost a major battle to another city state, Thebes, in 371 BC, at the Battle of Leuctra. That was the big no for Sparta. They'd been doing really well till then and they then lost. So another thing which people in the ancient world, and indeed modern scholars are quite interested in, was why did it suddenly go wrong? And again, that's hard to answer. Is it just the Thebans got better at fighting or that the Spartans somehow lost it? And one of the things about this is the Spartans had a sort of class of people called the Spartiates, who were like the hardcore citizen Spartans, and there were not that many of them. By the time that we get to the battle of Lutra in 371, there were only around 1,000 apparently of sort of hardcore Spartans who'd had the full military training from childhood. Whereas before, sort of end of the 5th century, 490s, we are told there are around 8,000 of them. What was going on there now? They had to have some sort of property qualification. Was it that they just hadn't got enough property to qualify as a spartiate? Were the sort of criteria too narrow so not enough people qualified, or was actually some sort of decline thing going on? So, very hard to know. But something went a bit wrong by 371.

[Kate Lister]

So what was the sort of the power structure in Sparta then? I'd assume that there was just one person, probably a king who was in charge and everyone else was a minion.

[Professor Helen King]

It's a real mess actually, Kate. It's a mixture of the three types of constitution in the ancient world. Monarchy, oligarchy, democracy. So monarchy, yes, there's a king, but actually there are two. Oh, there are two royal families. I know two royal families. So their concepts of whose family and who isn't really matter, which is funny in a society that's trying to play down the family, but there it really does matter. So two kings. Then there's the sort of oligarchy element. So the Spartiates, the ruling elite, the full citizens, if you like. And they don't believe in elections, they do things by lot, they just pick a name at random for the magistrates, the ephors who also run it. And then there's the democracy element, which is the sort of equality of all the Spartiates, none is more equal than another. And also things like the public messes, the eating together in your barracks, sort of all chaps together, all equal. So there's a mixture. Monarchy Aristocracy. Well, oligarchy, really, and democracy, isn't it? It is a mess, yes.

[Kate Lister]

And did the two kings, were they related? Were they like brothers?

[Professor Helen King]

Allegedly. It's always allegedly. The reason why there were two was that an earlier king, like a long, long time ago, had had two sons and couldn't decide which one was the heir, so he made them both. So they're sort of. They are related, but, yeah, that was a long time ago.

[Kate Lister]

That sounds insanely complicated. No wonder they were so angry all the time. When you think about sort of how they're perceived in general culture and certainly within films, there's this idea that. And you can tell me how true this is, that at the age of, like, I don't know, 10 days, something, the little boys were taken away from the mum and they were just thrown into this military service and then they were just basically kicked by big men until they were better at fighting. And all the women, if they cared at all, were just like, get on with it, you bunch of jessies. But when you actually think about it, that isn't actually a sound basis for a system of government. You can't have a system where every single man is dragged away from home.

[Professor Helen King]

I mean.

[Kate Lister]

Well, maybe you could, but does that just mean the women were in charge? Was every single man, all of them gone off doing military stuff?

[Professor Helen King]

Well, that's what the Athenians would have us believe the whole thing rests on. These guys are so busy doing the fighting and the training that they let women run things in a way they don't in other Greek city states.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Professor Helen King]

And that clearly for the Athenians, that is a bad thing, because Athenians think women. Women don't have the vote, Women have the place, you know, Whereas the stories that Athenians tell about Spartan women have them as really badass women who are running the show because their men are too busy doing the fighting.

[Kate Lister]

It's probably.

[Professor Helen King]

None of that's probably true. They also had a group called the Helots. And the Helots were like serfs, somewhere between serfs and slaves.

[Kate Lister]

I was gonna ask, where are the slaves in all of this? Are they being trained in the military as well?

[Professor Helen King]

Nope, absolutely not. So they're getting on with the everyday stuff and actually keeping the place going. So we don't know who they are. The Helots, they might be another racial group that was subjugated by the Spartans, but they're basically not proper Spartans and they do the work. And there's another lot who are sort of traders and people from other cities who happen to live in Sparta. And they're also involved in running the economy and so on. So there's actually rather more going on to it than the Spartiates themselves. But allegedly all the Spartiates are equal and they're all fighting together. And as you say, they start young. The story has them going to learn to fight from the age of seven and basically being torn away from their mothers and sent into barracks. Some scholars would say, yeah, but they probably went home in the evenings, which isn't quite the same.

[Kate Lister]

They left that out.

[Professor Helen King]

So it's hard to know whether, you know, just how totally single minded this focus on military training was. Because of the nature of the sources. There's also an earlier stage, which is found in lots of Greek cities, that if they were not looking fit and healthy as babies, they could be thrown off the rock. Yeah, the throwing off the rock story. Now this trouble with that is that the rock in question, there is no evidence of vast numbers of small bones at the bottom. Oh, oh, no evidence that. No, it is good. It is good, but it's not good for the sources. So no evidence that the place is full of evidence of bones. So actually maybe they didn't throw them off. But then Athens too, you know, had a ceremony where shortly after birth, the father has to lift the child up from the earth to show that he's prepared to rear this baby, that it doesn't look iffy to him. So they're all quite into this. So this sort of, I don't know, eugenics, birth control after the event or something. This is actually a Greek thing rather than a Spartan thing.

[Kate Lister]

I've certainly. It's one of the first things I ever read about the Spartans as a small child and it really upset me. I'm just like. I'd never heard anything quite like it was that they just left babies out on the hillside if they just didn't like the look of them. But, like, when you actually think about that, that's a bit of a mad practice if it's just any baby that you're like, because babies are very precious commodities, especially if you're in the military. So I've always wondered just how true that was or if that was part of that Spartan mythology of, like, we're so hardcore, we're just gonna kill babies.

[Professor Helen King]

Yeah. Or it's the Athenians saying that the plants are so hardcore, but then the Athenians are doing it too. Exposure of infants all over the Greek world, if you don't think they're going to make it, is sort of normal. On the other hand, we also have evidence from things like Athenian vase painting of people with quite obvious bodily issues who were nevertheless alive. You know, they hadn't been thrown off a rock or thrown out onto the hillside or something. So there were people with disabilities in antiquity.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. And there was a character in the 300 film, wasn't there, who had a disability, had a hunchback. Not that that has to be historically accurate, but I'm just. Just as we're on the conversation, you.

[Professor Helen King]

Are getting us towards 300, aren't you? Slowly but steadily.

[Kate Lister]

I can't help it. They're just so pretty. They have such nice legs.

[Professor Helen King]

So.

[Kate Lister]

So the kind of idea that, like, every single man was out training all day long and just being beaten up. It's somewhat true, but probably if you went to Sparta, there would be, like lots of men there. Maybe it was like a certain class of Spartans that were doing it. The other thing they have a reputation for is that it was brutal, this training. It was. I think I read somewhere, like, when I was a kid that they would drink blood and vinegar.

[Professor Helen King]

Okay, I haven't met that one, but.

[Kate Lister]

No, it was probably like in the Ladybird Book of Greek History or something. Mad. But I do remember reading going, ew.

[Professor Helen King]

It's the sort of story you tell about Spartans, isn't it, really?

[Kate Lister]

Yes.

[Professor Helen King]

So the absolute classic one about the brutality has to be the story of the young, young boy in training as he's been sent off to do his military training. And one of the things they were taught to do was to steal things, which is an interesting form of education. We don't tend to get that today. They were taught to steal and the idea was that they could sort of live in the wild because they could find food somewhere, you know, sort of survival skills. And this young boy, for some reason, has got a fox. Don't ask. I mean, I don't know why you put a fox up your. Well, up your jumper. Basically, he's got a fox under his clothing and they're saying, have you got something there? And he's like, no, absolutely not. Nothing to see here. I'm fine. And meanwhile, the fox is busy biting him to death. And this is praised because the boy never cries out.

[Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Professor Helen King]

Yes. So sticking your fox up your jumper and letting it eat you, you just don't react. And that's the typical Spartan sort of thing.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. Part of their training as well was that they had to kill a slave. Is that true or is that my Lady Bird Book of Greek History?

[Professor Helen King]

It's there's. There is evidence. This is group, the Helots, the sort of serf type slaves that are the subjugated group. In Sparta, there was supposed to be an annual helot cull where the Spartiates go out and just kill a few.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. Okay.

[Professor Helen King]

But again, you. It's not a terribly wise move, is it? Bearing in mind that they're doing all the work.

[Kate Lister]

They're expensive. Yeah. You need them. Somebody need them. Oh, right. Okay, so they're sent away and how long are they training for? From the age of seven until.

[Professor Helen King]

Until they drop dead. Really? I'm not sure they get a retirement. Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure they get a retirement age. Once the Spartiate, always the Spartiate. Really? The Spartiates are supposed to all eat together in a sort of public mess, right? So it's like a barracks sort of army system. They go through a special education system called the Agoge, which is supposed to be playing down the importance of family and playing up the importance of estate. Yeah, yeah, it is. Really it is. But again, that's what the Athenians are telling us. We don't know if it was actually a lot more fun if you were in it. I don't know.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Helen after this short break.

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[Kate Lister]

Let's talk about gayness then. Because that's. They weren't allowed to get married, were they, the men? Until quite late on I'm gonna say 30, but I might have just imagined that. So all these boys in together in their barracks, what was their attitude to same sex relationships?

[Professor Helen King]

Well, now again, pencil, you believe?

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Professor Helen King]

So there is, there's evidence in terms of what other people say about them. Whenever I say there's evidence, it's not from Sparta, it's from someone else. Talking about Spartans. Right? So there's evidence that they had sex with the older men and the younger boys. Because of course that's also what happens in Athens. Yeah, in Athens there is an institutionalized piderasty, basically where an older man and a younger boy have a relationship and it's a sort of educational relationship where the older man teaches the young boy stuff about life, life, the universe and everything, acts as a mentor, a guide and also maybe has sex with them. Although whether that's actually anal or whether it's between the thighs is another one of those tricky ones, you know, how do you tell from a vase painting where everything actually is, you know, and it's not shameful.

[Kate Lister]

I mean today there would be pitchforks and you know, there'd be an absolute outcry about this and rightly so. But I'm just trying to get an understanding of this Wasn't like it was an open secret or people were ashamed of it. This was completely normal.

[Professor Helen King]

Completely normal. Yes, exactly. So, so in Athens, the point was that the young boy would eventually grow up and it's when usually when he gets facial hair that's he's considered like he's going to be a man now. And then you stop the relationship. I know, I know. Then you stop the relationship and then he will go on to have relationships with women and eventually to marry and then he will also Find a young boy who will be his sort of protege. So it's that sort of system, and that's Athens. So if Athens is saying, well, Sparta does this. Yeah, Athens does it too. It has been argued by modern scholars that what's going on with the Spartan system is some sort of idea that the sperm of the older man is somehow making the younger boy big and strong.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, my God.

[Professor Helen King]

Sorry. Sorry, Kate.

[Kate Lister]

That's. That's a man thought that one up. That's all right. Go on, explain. Explain to me the logic of that one then. There's always a logic, no matter how mad.

[Professor Helen King]

Well, you know, if this going back to the ancient Greek medical things which I've talked about with you before. So the idea that semen is the superior fluid of the human body, you start with menstrual blood, which is a bit weird, and then that gets cooked in the body by your internal heat to make breast milk when you're feeding a baby. But if you're a man, you can heat it even more because men's bodies are hot and it becomes semen. So it becomes this superior fluid. And if you pass it on to someone else, that's got to be somehow good for them.

[Kate Lister]

Right. Okay. Honest. My God. Right. So this is what they're doing. It's all completely normal. Can I ask, where are women featuring in this? All boys Together. My Seaman's Magic World.

[Professor Helen King]

Okay, well, now, so we've said already, women are powerful in Sparta, according to the Athenians. And that is supposed to be according to the Athenians. One reason why Sparta is a bad thing.

[Kate Lister]

Terrible.

[Professor Helen King]

You know, all these men busy fighting, and the women have too much power. When the men and the women get together. Marriage, this gets a bit tricky. So we've also got sources that say that there's a special marriage ritual where the bride shaves her head, dresses as a man, right? And then her husband comes in to see her in the dark. Which, you know, could be interpreted to mean he's sort of more used to boys than he is girls. Oh, no, I'm sorry. No, I'm sorry. Oh.

[Kate Lister]

Could you even imagine having that conversation with your fiance? You want me to do what?

[Professor Helen King]

I think not. I think not. So there was an idea. A Spartan marriage is somehow not like normal marriage. Athenian marriage, you know, man, woman, negotiations between the two families. But even there, in Athenian marriage, the classic image on Var's painting is of the man clutching the wrist of the wife as he sort of leads her away like they're not holding hands. He's Grabbing her by the wrist and pulling. So there's a sort of violence thing going on there. But then there's other things with the wife. So there's also stories that men would sneak out to impregnate their wives, sneak out from the barracks, get home secretly in the dark, you know, nip in, have a quickie and then sneak back again. And the thing that we're told by Athenians here about why they do that is because if you don't have too much sex, your semen. Here we go again. Is stronger. Because it's stronger, it'll make better babies. So sneaking out to see the wife for a quickie, not very often, is going to lead to better babies. So, again, we're onto eugenics. We're onto how to make really strong soldiers.

[Kate Lister]

Interesting. So they would be married and he'd still be in the army?

[Professor Helen King]

Yes, absolutely. You're not going to get out of it for marriage.

[Kate Lister]

Military wives, then.

[Professor Helen King]

Military wives. Today we have military wives choirs. Interestingly, Spartan women do a certain amount of song and dance as far as we can see. Yeah. So there's definitely some dancing going on.

[Kate Lister]

Okay. So I'm trying to wonder what it would be like. So if the men are all, you know, my semen is magical and special. Would you like some? Is there any evidence, I ask in vain hope, that the women were having sex with one another? Is there any lesbian evidence at all?

[Professor Helen King]

There are little suggestions lurking in the sources that women were also, because they were all around together, the men were there. So what's a girl going to do? There are sources that claim that it's both sexes who are doing this. Ooh.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, that's interesting, because the evidence of women having sex with each other is pretty rare in the ancient world.

[Professor Helen King]

It is. And it tends to be allegations rather than evidence, but yeah. Oh, and then there's the group marriage. Mustn't forget the group marriage.

[Kate Lister]

Group marriage.

[Professor Helen King]

Group marriage. There's been a suggestion that you should call it group marriage. I'm not sure it's really groups, but men could go out and get another woman pregnant other than their wife if the husband gave permission. So you say you as a bloke, say, really like the look of your wife, you know, Any chance. And the husband would be able to say, yeah, sure, go for it. You seem like a nice guy.

[Kate Lister]

Why? Why?

[Professor Helen King]

Why?

[Kate Lister]

Why? Why?

[Professor Helen King]

Well, it's reducing the family. I think that's what the sources from the Athenians and the Romans are trying to tell us that this society doesn't really do Family in the way that everybody else does. So it's like, whoa, marriage. Yeah, they have it, but it's not like our marriage. Kind of weird. It's kind of weird. It's all kind of weird. And you could also, if you, if you couldn't get your wife pregnant, you could sort of pick a man and say, you look like you could do the job, you know, you look like you've got the magic semen. Would you like to come in and just do it for my wife? And that was fine. So I think this is again saying that they don't do the family properly.

[Kate Lister]

Okay. I'm leaning towards Athenian propaganda, but I mean I could, I could be horribly wrong with that one. But let's talk about Spartan women in general because they seem to have fascinated the rest of Greece and the Ancient. Well, the Romans certainly had a thing about them. They're kind of fetishized at the same time as being like, oh my God, this is awful. Like they're doing stuff and talking out loud. It's terrible. What is going on there? How are they perceived? Because you do get the sense that they were pretty hot.

[Professor Helen King]

Well, so one of the great sources here is from the Roman Empire, Plutarch sayings of Spartan women. He collected things Spartan women say. Now if you bear in mind that Spartan attitude to words is quite interesting. So you talked about Spartan meaning basic primitive, whatever, laconic. And the area around Sparta is Laconia. So this is the same thing. Laconic is Spartan. Laconic means that you just don't use very many words. You say something in a really short, pithy way.

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[Professor Helen King]

So the words of Spartan women or the alleged words have been preserved and they're things like come home with your shield or on it.

[Kate Lister]

Yes.

[Professor Helen King]

We are the only women who give birth to men.

[Kate Lister]

That's a good sound bite.

[Professor Helen King]

It's not bad, is it? So this is the sort of thing, sound bites. Laconic sound bites are really a speciality here. So that's the sort of thing Spartan women are supposed to say. They uphold the status quo. They don't resist it. They're actually even more into the military culture than the men are.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, yeah.

[Professor Helen King]

Which is saying something. So, yeah, they're very inter military. They're also supposedly have lots of knowledge about bodies. This is one of those again, really interesting claims. You will love this. Abortion.

[Kate Lister]

Right, right.

[Professor Helen King]

Basic method of contraception in the ancient world. After the event. Event abortion. So there's this very famous play by Aristophanes Lysistrata in which the women sort of go on strike because the men are just failing to bring a war to an end. And there's a character in that called Lampetou, which is a Spartan name. And Lampetou says she can touch her buttocks with her feet when she jumps.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Professor Helen King]

Don't try this at home, listeners. Well, I don't know, maybe you will, but it sounds challenging to me. So this is actually about doing a dance that she's showing she's really fit. Spartan women are fit to be hyper fit. Yeah. So she's saying, we are really strong women. It's not just we're the women who give birth to men. We do that because we are really strong. Good thigh muscles. That's what Spartan women have. So she's just saying that in a dancing context. Look, I can do this thing. I'm really good at it. But then there's also a medical text, Hippocratic medical text, which talks about a slave girl who became pregnant. And she was employed as an entertainer. So we don't know whether that means a sex worker probably. And because she was pregnant, she knew she wouldn't be able to do her job. So she went to her employer, who I assume is a slave owner, and said, look, I got pregnant the last time I did this. And the mistress of this enslaved woman goes to a family member who happens to be a Hippocratic doctor and says, what do I do? And the doctor says, tell her to jump up and down with her heels touching her buttocks. So the girl. I know, I know. So the girl does it and something plops out.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, no. Oh, right.

[Professor Helen King]

Oh, she's only supposed to have been pregnant for six days. There is absolutely no way. Right, yeah, yeah, Whatever. Plops out is supposed to look like the inside of an egg. Goodness knows what the Hippocratic doctor who witnesses this is supposed to be seeing. But people then link that with Lampito in the play jumping up and down and say, ah. This maneuver for abortion is called the Lacedaemonian leap. And Laconia area, where Sparta is Lacedaemonian. Another word for Spartan, the Lacedaemonian leap. So if you Google Lacedaemonian leap, you will find people saying, oh, Hippocrates describes the Lacedaemonian leap. Well, he doesn't. He talks about one girl jumping up and down. But then people have subsequently linked that to the play and said, oh, yeah, it's a Spartan woman who does it. So Spartan women are really good at this. They could control their fertility.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. Do we have any evidence? Not that they're doing this leapy thing that sounds bonkers, but that the Spartan women were more aware of medicine and better awareness of their body than anyone else.

[Professor Helen King]

Well, again, if we go back to that Plutarch sayings of Spartan women collection, there's one in there about a young girl who's a virgin, loses her virginity and decides to bring on an abortion and does it so quietly, no one realizes she's doing it. So it's like that boy with the fox up the jumper.

[Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Professor Helen King]

It's that. Bearing pain without actually showing pain. That's what Spartans are known for.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Helen after this short break.

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[Kate Lister]

Is it true that Spartan women were buried as warriors if they died during childbirth? Or have I mixed that up with someone else?

[Professor Helen King]

No, you've got it. Because there's this basic parallel between women who die in childbirth and men who die in war as equivalent. And that again, is a Greek thing. To actually bury them like that is another matter. Who knows? But the idea of those are the two ways that a man and a woman defend their country. Women produce babies, more soldiers, men die in battle. So it isn't really a Spartan thing. It's actually what all Greeks do. It's just that the Spartans are used to sort of big it up. So remember, it's not just people who think Sparta is really weird who are trying to defend Athens as the proper civilized place. There are also people who live in Athens and think Athens is a bit rubbish. And we could do a lot better if people like Sparta. So there's always people who are Athenians who go and stay in Sparta, have friends in Sparta, hang Out in Sparta. Live in Sparta because they think it's better. So the opposition between the two is quite interestingly connected.

[Kate Lister]

And Spartan women were said to be able to exercise, weren't they? That they. They would have their keep fit regimes as well. Possibly in the Nip.

[Professor Helen King]

In the nip, indeed. So again, one of the few things we have from Sparta in terms of artifacts is this beautiful little statuette of a young girl who could be dancing, could be running, hard to know. Her legs are sort of like she's on the move and she's got a really short skirt on and one breast bare. And this thing about the short skirt. Lots and lots of sources talk about the Spartans as women exercised wearing this short thing. They were known as thigh flashers, which is rather wonderful. Spartan women are thigh flashers.

[Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Professor Helen King]

They wear the short skirt and sometimes, yeah, they will exercise completely in the nude. And the trouble with that is it's such an image. It's a good excuse to show naked women. Right. You know, that's. There's an awful lot of those. So that means we have fairly modern works of art. Like there's one by Degas showing Spartan girls exercising and he's got them in the nude because it's a great excuse to show naked girls.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Professor Helen King]

So who knows where the truth is there. But again, the purpose of the exercising is not because they want to be sports women or because they just want to do it because it's fun. The purpose of the exercise, according to our ancient sources, is always to have better babies, stronger babies.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Professor Helen King]

It's all about the military.

[Kate Lister]

Again, build that pelvic floor.

[Professor Helen King]

Build that pelvic floor. Yes.

[Kate Lister]

Is it significant, is it significant then that Helen of Troy was actually Helen of Sparta? She was Spartan, the face that launched a thousand ships.

[Professor Helen King]

Yeah. It's quite a shock to the system, isn't it? Because you're brought up on this idea of Spartan as primitive and basic and, you know, ugly, horrible. And then you find out that the most beautiful woman in the world was actually from Sparta. Wow. Those exercise regimes are clearly doing them good.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, they must have done. Right? I mean, is that. I mean, Sparta sounds like it was known for beautiful women, or at least women that were, you know, they exercised, they took care of their bodies and they were depicted as such as. Well, yes.

[Professor Helen King]

And think back to the fact we actually have mirrors from ancient Sparta. You know, they cared what they looked like, they looked at themselves. It's the more vain maybe than we think.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Professor Helen King]

It's fascinating. Spartan women are doing pretty well Here.

[Kate Lister]

They are, aren't they? And Helen was the most beautiful woman in the world. And she was from Spartan. She didn't get kidnapped, did she? She went quite willingly.

[Professor Helen King]

She did indeed. So she wasn't a faithful woman.

[Kate Lister]

No, no. And a Spartan woman should have been a bit more faithful than that. Really.

[Professor Helen King]

Should have been staying back home and having those babies, really.

[Kate Lister]

Let's think about 300 now. Cause I've been. I've been circling that one for a while that depicts our very modern understanding of what Sparta's like. And I thought it was really interesting that it went full into that military stoic. The ripped bodies and all the rest of it. It's still with us, this idea of the Spartans. Do you think it's ever gonna change? Are we ever gonna accept a Spartan that is less than a military genius?

[Professor Helen King]

Wouldn't it be fun to make a film about a Spartan who really didn't like fighting, who was completely ridiculous? Yeah, Completely rubbish. Or hiding foxes up his jumper and.

[Kate Lister]

Just really didn't want to be outside? Hated the rain. It's shit.

[Professor Helen King]

Hated it. Hated it. Wrote poetry in his spare time. I think it would be great. But 300. Okay. The six packs, the oiled bodies, they.

[Kate Lister]

Wouldn'T have looked quite like that, would they?

[Professor Helen King]

Probably not. I don't think anyone.

[Kate Lister]

Nobody actually looks like that.

[Professor Helen King]

But it's a great movie. Not least because it's really very aware of all those sayings of Spartan women. You know, we have. With your shield or on it. And also there's a point, the famous point where King Leonidas chucks these Persian envoy down the well.

[Kate Lister]

Yes.

[Professor Helen King]

And says, this is Sparta. Wonderful moment. And before he does it, what does he do? He looks at his wife, Gorgo, and she gives him a short. A little bit of a nod, a little bit of an eyebrow. Yep, do it. It's the woman supporting the male ideal. The woman who's actually the power of Sparta. I think that's really fun. There really was a scene in which in history where Persian envoy turns up and the Spartans kill the messenger. I mean, you never kill the messenger, right?

[Kate Lister]

No, that's. Never.

[Professor Helen King]

Never. So diplomacy.

[Kate Lister]

So as a final question then, if I could time travel you back to ancient Sparta in its heyday, where would you want to go? What would you want to find out? You can come back again, but you've only got like a few hours.

[Professor Helen King]

It's very hard, isn't it? So I think I'd be really quite interested in seeing what it's like in. In the court. So the Fact, they have two kings, two royal families at the same time. And I would want to be hanging out in the court, probably not as one of the rulers, but I quite fancy being a waiting, a waiting girl, you know, just, you know, behind the scenes seeing what's going on there, observing. Because I really want to know how those two royal families function. Because ideally they've got two kings at a time. One is in charge of war and the other one's in charge of keeping things going at home while they're out during the war. How does that work? You know, what if one of them isn't much good at the job they're supposed to have? But it's fascinating. And can I tell you the story of Alcibiades?

[Kate Lister]

Please.

[Professor Helen King]

Okay, so Alcibiades, incredibly famous Athenian general who is supposedly had a fling with the wife of one of the Spartan kings. I would love to know what's going on there. She's supposed to have said, this is Queen Timaea, wife of King AGIs. She's supposed to have said, oh, the kid's definitely Alcibiades kid. What does she think that. So is this suggesting knowledge of contraception or just that she didn't actually have sex with her husband very much or what? Because Alcibiades, Athenian general, gets into trouble in Athens for allegedly some ritual act. Might be he profaned the Eleusinian mysteries. There's a whole story there might be that he was responsible for the mutilation of the Herms, which is where these square cut statues with a sort of head were found at crossroads and things in ancient Athens. And they all had an erection, a large erection.

[Kate Lister]

I see.

[Professor Helen King]

So it's like a garden gnome. Think garden gnome, but with a very big hard on. I'm sorry, Kate, I just. I knew, I knew this would go with you. So, okay. And so one morning the Athenians wake up and all the erections have been knocked off.

[Kate Lister]

No.

[Professor Helen King]

Yes. No penises. So who did that? And because Alcibiades was a bit of a lad and because some people didn't like him because he was actually also a wizzy general and a sort of sex on legs type character, they reckoned it was him. Now he'd already left, he'd left with the fleet to as part of the war against Sparta that was going on at that time, this end of the 5th century and they sent a ship to say, come back home. We need you to stand trial for possibly knocking.

[Kate Lister]

Knocking their willies off.

[Professor Helen King]

Nerms. Exactly. And obviously he's not an idiot. He said, well, blow that. And he went to Sparta and said, hello, I'm Alcibiades, the leading general of Athens. Would you like me to be your military advisor? Because I know a thing or three. Smart move. And so he did. So while he was there, he's supposed to have had a fling with the queen.

[Kate Lister]

He sounds like a right chancellor, doesn't he?

[Professor Helen King]

Yeah, he was. And then when he fell out with Sparta, he went to Persia, the ancestral enemy of the whole of Greece, and said, hello, I know a thing about the Spartans and the Athenians. Could I be your military advisor? And they went, yeah, that'll be nice.

[Kate Lister]

Scallywag.

[Professor Helen King]

Yeah. I need to know what's going on, particularly with this thing with the king. What was going on there? Do you really have a relationship with the queen? Was it his baby?

[Kate Lister]

Did he really knock the willies off all the gnomes?

[Professor Helen King]

Did he really knock the willies off the gnomes? Exactly. I really need to know now.

[Kate Lister]

I need to know too. Oh, Helen, you have been wonderful to talk to you. You always are. If people want to know more about you and your research, where can they find you?

[Professor Helen King]

Well, the most recent book is Immaculate Forms, which is coming up in the US on 28 January. Having been out in the UK since September, I have a blog called Mistaking Histories. All one word and just, yeah, Google me. I'm all over, I'm afraid.

[Kate Lister]

It's absolutely fabulous that you are. Thank you so much. Will you come back and talk to us again?

[Professor Helen King]

I certainly will, Kate. It's always a real, real pleasure.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Helen for joining us. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to, like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you like us to explore a subject, or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email [e-mail] We've got episodes on Quack Doctors with the Cautionary Tales podcast and Valentine's Day in Ancient Rome all coming your way. This podcast was edited by Nick Thomas and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again. Betwixt the Sheets, the History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by history hit. This podcast can music by Epidemic sound.

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