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- [00:00]
Kate Lister
Hi, I'm your host, Kate Lister. If you would like Betwixt the Sheets ad free and get early access, sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every single week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe. Hello my lovely betwixters, it's me, Cait Lister. You are listening to Betwixter Sheets. But because we care about you and we don't want you to get shocked and offended and have your sensibilities rattled, I have to tell you that this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. And now we've got that little lot out of the way. Bring on the smut. Walking down the narrow streets of Soho in the days following the Great War is is an eye opening experience in these tough post war years which ended on Armistice Day, November 11, 1918. This central part of London with its labyrinth of bars and clubs has become the epicentre of hedonism where a dark underworld of shady characters are soundtracked by an exploding jazz scene fueled by a roaring drugs trade. At the heart of it are the so called dope girls, women who entertained and supplied in equal measure. It's as murky as it is fascinating and I can't wait to explore. What do you look for? A man?
- [01:40]
Dan Snow
Oh, money, of course.
- [01:41]
Kate Lister
You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the button. Era now. Era now. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.
- [01:59]
Dan Snow
Goodness.
- [01:59]
Kate Lister
What beautiful dam. Goodness has nothing to do with it, dear. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. The years after the First World War were a tough time for most people here in the uk and as history shows us, when things go low, people get high and will do anything that they can to kick up their heels and forget their troubles, regardless of of how legal it may or may not have been. And so it was in 1920s London, specifically in Soho, where the sex industry met a nightlife of jazz music and drugs, all of which thrived in spite of hard times. It was epitomized as all that was decadent and dangerous. So, inspired by the new BBC show Dope Girls, which is set in this world, I have joined history hit's very own Dan Snow to find out more about 1920s Soho and the fascinating people at the heart of it. And by the time you're listening to this, Dope Girls will be out. So check it out on the iplayer if you can. How did a post war mindset influence the hedonism of the 1920s? How did the press react to so much scandal? And who were some of the major players involved? And how successful was the government in cracking down on it? Answer? Not very. But without further ado, let's find out more.
- [03:31]
Dan Snow
Hi, Kate, good to see you here in the heart of swingy Soho.
- [03:33]
Kate Lister
Thank you very much for asking me here.
- [03:35]
Dan Snow
We're all watching Dope Girls and what I like about this, it's got two great passions of mine. One is I used to go out in Soho all the time. It felt like an exciting place to go out when I was younger. And two, I'm fascinated by that post war generation, how wild it was. It was like the 60s, before the 60s, wasn't it? And we'd just forgotten about that.
- [03:51]
Kate Lister
It has been called the first sexual revolution. You know, scholars of that period get very angry when people try and say it was the 1960s and they go, no, no, I think you'll find it was the 1920s and for good reason as well.
- [04:03]
Dan Snow
And then the 1890s, lads join the.
- [04:04]
Kate Lister
Channel and then the 18th century get involved and then we go all the way back until we're just amoebas in a pond somewhere.
- [04:10]
Dan Snow
Can we start with Soho? Because there's something about Soho I remember being. The streets are narrow. It feels like, if not medieval, but sort of Georgian London. There's not many cars on the streets. There's street life there, isn't there? Even though it's in the heart of some extremely expensive real estate now.
- [04:25]
Kate Lister
There is, and there always has been. It's got a really, really long history to Soho. And even though it's been extensively gentrified since the 1980s, it still has that slightly risque, slightly naughty feel about it. But in its earliest, earliest days, it wasn't naughty at all. It was quite a posh area. It was where aristocrats lived and they're the ones that sort of built all of the big houses. And the word Soho comes from an old hunting cry where you'd go, soho, because it was once upon a time, obviously it wasn't in central London, it was just sort of on the outskirts.
- [04:58]
Dan Snow
So, okay, so it was a greenfield.
- [05:00]
Kate Lister
So it was greenfield kind of an area. And then it starts to be developed and it becomes the playground of aristocrats and rich People. But eventually, sort of about the 18th century, they start to move out.
- [05:11]
Dan Snow
Oh, they keep going west?
- [05:12]
Kate Lister
Yeah, they keep going west and it starts to become that kind of shabby, boho chic. The properties are a little bit cheaper to buy, so people of a less high quality start moving into the area. And the thing that really does for it is it starts becoming a theatre district. And the theatre has long been associated with all kinds of naughtiness. And where there's theatres, there's drinking dens. Where there's drinking dens, there will be drunk people. And where there's drunk people, there will be brothels as well. So it just all kind of grew up in this area and then the area became notorious for it, and then it starts to sort of feed on itself, as this is the destination, this is where you go.
- [05:48]
Dan Snow
So in the 1920s, you've got this generation who've survived what they think is the greatest war in history. They're traumatised by it. They've lost their mates, they've lost family members, and they're still very young. They're coming back from the trenches like 21, 22 years old. So they want to go out and party and live life and I suppose, to a certain extent, sort of drown their sorrow.
- [06:07]
Kate Lister
They do. It's kind of difficult, I think, for us to try and imagine what they went through and what life must have been like, not just Post World War I, but post Spanish flu as well. And like the trauma of the war. And you've got a generation that's just sort of like, okay, so, well, now what do we do? The entire world is different. Everything's different. And in particular, women's roles are different. Because one thing that the war did, that had never happened before, is it allowed women to go into the workplace. Cause obviously the men had to go and fight in the trenches. So the home, London and everywhere back home became largely dominated by women. They were the ones driving the buses, they were the ones running the services in the shops. They were going out to work. And then the war is over. The men come back and the women are like, we just go back home now then, do we? And that was always a really difficult thing and it was never going to happen. So you've got a new generation of women who have seen what it's like to earn your own money, to have a career, to go out and do the things that you want to do. And they're not going to go back into the kitchen willingly.
- [07:06]
Dan Snow
Did they enjoy not just more personal autonomy, economic autonomy, but also sexual autonomy. Is that something that went alongside that?
- [07:12]
Kate Lister
Definitely the 1920s and in fact, the First World War is notorious for it, because there's nothing that will change your mind faster on sexual morality than impending death. I think bombs falling from the sky makes everyone go, oh, maybe, maybe I'm not quite so uptight about this. So things are changing and they were changing before that. You've got the first kind of reliable contraception coming through. People are talking about it in ways that have never been spoken about it before. Sex is much more mainstream, but everyone in the ward did things differently, people having sex differently, it changed attitudes. And as you said, the sort of. The overwhelming feeling when they came out the other side of it is, well, let's party.
- [07:50]
Dan Snow
Reliable contraception is ish.
- [07:53]
Kate Lister
It's reliable ish contraception. So they were using cervical caps at that point. You could have gone down to Marie Stopes clinic and got yourself fitted for a cervical cap. Which is. They weren't nice and they weren't 100% effective, but there were contraceptive clinics that you could go to if you're a married woman.
- [08:10]
Dan Snow
Surprising that it involved really invasive, unpleasant things put in women rather than just men.
- [08:14]
Kate Lister
Of course it did. I mean, you could get condoms. You could, but they had a reputation as being slightly seedy, something that you'd only use for promiscuous sex. And the birth control advocates were very, very keen on trying to be like, well, this isn't about promiscuous sex, this is about married life and controlling the population. Condoms had a reputation for. This is just for shits and giggles.
- [08:35]
Dan Snow
The kind of thing the French used.
- [08:37]
Kate Lister
The French used it, yes. Except they called them English raincoats.
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Dan Snow
Oh, really?
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Kate Lister
Yeah, yeah.
- [08:41]
Dan Snow
And didn't. Weren't they called French something on this side?
- [08:43]
Kate Lister
French letters.
- [08:44]
Dan Snow
French letters, yeah.
- [08:45]
Kate Lister
Apparently Britain made really, really good condoms at this period. We exported them all around the world.
- [08:50]
Dan Snow
So proud. So take me back to. So, in the 1920s, what can I expect? I walk down the street.
- [08:54]
Kate Lister
You can expect fun if you know where to look for it. I suspect if you walk down and you had no idea where you were going or what you were doing, it would not be immediately obvious. Apart from the theaters, this is very relatable to my life because drinking culture and pubs were really, really strictly controlled during the First World War and after it, with the Defence of the Realms Act. They were the ones that said pubs can only open for two hours in the day and then for four hours at night. You and I are both probably old enough to Remember when there were drinking.
- [09:24]
Dan Snow
Restrictions still, on Sunday afternoon they closed pubs. You had to leave the pub.
- [09:28]
Kate Lister
Exactly. And that was because of the Defence of the Realm Act. So it stayed in place all that time. But there were really strict rules around where you could drink, who could have a license, because basically they didn't want the soldiers being pissed up during the war. Ammunitions workers or munitions workers, you know, it wasn't so much that they desperately cared about the health of the populace. So what springs up around that is a lot of speakeasies, a lot of drinking dens, places where if you know someone who knows somebody, they can take you there. So there's that culture, and if you know where to go, then you can have a really good time. Brothels are always as discreet as they can be because they're dodging the police. They don't want to attract attention to themselves. So they were mostly in residential spaces above shops and somebody's working out of a flat. And then, of course, there'd be women on the street. If you knew who you were looking for, it's there, but you need to know what you're looking for.
- [10:22]
Dan Snow
And Soho was. You don't think of it in those terms anymore. Maybe naively, but Soho definitely. When I was growing up, starting it, it was sex, work and adult stores. That was a big part of Soho's mystique.
- [10:34]
Kate Lister
Yeah. And it has been since the 18th century, really. When you start to get sex workers moving into the area, then the area becomes notorious for it. Then you get things like Harris's list of Covent Garden ladies, which is giving out the addresses of where women work, and some of them are in what we'd now call Soho. So it become an area that's known for it. And then as you get into the 20th century, you've got theaters opening up which are on the racier side of things, like the Windmill Theater. So it's a couple of decades after the 20s, but the first theatre to allow women nude on stage as long as they were stood completely still and pretending to be statues. But you've got sort of like strip clubs start moving in after that. So it's definitely an area that's had that reputation for a good few hundred years.
- [11:15]
Dan Snow
And you got the heady sound of jazz.
- [11:17]
Kate Lister
Yeah, jazz came over with the Americans in the First World War when they were stationed here. They exported a lot of American culture. I mean, it must have arrived like an absolute bullet to the brain. If you're. Imagine like, you know, you're a housewife in 1920s London, and you've just listened to big band music and all of a sudden jazz has arrived. And it's fun and it's fast and it's naughty, and people are really worried about it. Like, you know, like, oh, don't be listening to that. It's terrible.
- [11:44]
Dan Snow
And Nazis hated jazz. Well, yeah, except when they're in private and they all listen to it, I'm sure. But like. Yeah, in public. Yeah, I hated it. So disease.
- [11:52]
Kate Lister
Well, and they did in its earliest, when it starts to get exported, and even in America, people thought of it like that. It's this moral degenerate. And of course, because it's associated with black culture, there's a racism that goes with it of like, oh, my God, these black people coming over and infecting our decent white girls. That narrative runs through it the whole time, but it absolutely electrified the entire world.
- [12:14]
Dan Snow
And so it becomes a center of jazz clubs.
- [12:16]
Kate Lister
Yeah, it does. Yeah. Jazz. And you would go and dance. We don't really go and dance anymore. I mean, I know you can go to a club and dance, but, like, dancing at this point in history was a really, really big thing. And if not everyone was going dancing in underground jazz dens, you'd go to your local village hall and have a dance. You'd go. That's the thing that you did for fun.
- [12:35]
Dan Snow
It's where you met your partner. Right, you met at a dance.
- [12:37]
Kate Lister
Yeah. It was like the social that you'd go to. But along with jazz, the style of dancing starts to change. You get the flappers coming through with the Charleston, the hemlines are going up, the dances getting a bit more raucous. It must have felt really dangerous and exciting that particular period.
- [12:53]
Dan Snow
And again, just come back to that first point. This is a generation of men and women who've, especially the elite, the officer class, suffered disproportionate high casualties. So the people with money, the people with aristocratic connection, they'd have known reams of people that weren't there anymore. So they must just thought, we're lucky to be alive. Let's just party.
- [13:08]
Kate Lister
Let's just do it. Yeah. Sod it. The Roaring Twenties. I think everyone was aware that they'd come through something absolutely horrific and that the world was different. I think it was a lot of anxiety as well, though. You know, a sort of a sense of what happens now? What do we do now? And there was this moral panic around young girls and around jazz clubs and around drink and drugs and about how society is crumbling and decaying all around us. And Soho was an epicenter for that.
- [13:35]
Dan Snow
Let's talk about drugs, because, again, you associate that with a later cultural and sexual revolution. But so people are taking drugs.
- [13:41]
Kate Lister
They've always taken drugs. People have always.
- [13:44]
Dan Snow
What are you saying?
- [13:46]
Kate Lister
As long as there have been drugs, there have been people that take them. But things start to change in the 1920s because the law starts to get involved and you get this creation of this image of the drug fiend, the drug addict. Up until that point, it was well known that people could abuse drugs. Like in the 18th century, Thomas de Quincey writes Confessions Of An English Opium Eater. But there was a sort of a sense of almost like, oh, you silly goose, getting all messed up with that. It wasn't this idea that a dope fiend was an actual thing. Like there wasn't this understanding of addiction that we have today. But that starts to change in the 1920s, and one of the reasons for that is because the government has to crack down on drugs because their soldiers are getting stoned. That's what they're worried about, is it's not so much that they are desperately concerned about the welfare of their citizens, it's that they can't afford to have soldiers off their face on opium or unbridled cocaine use. There was also lots of reports coming into the police about how young men had been fed cocaine by nefarious sex workers in Soho and they just couldn't remember anything afterwards. And this kind of narrative. Yeah, of course, of course.
- [14:55]
Dan Snow
That's what you tell the wife when you get home.
- [14:57]
Kate Lister
Exactly. So the first drug laws start to be passed under the Defence of the Realm act, which was basically that stop taking drugs was sort of the big one, and the police could start to raid places, they could start to confiscate it. And then you get this weird legal landscape because doctors could still prescribe it for pretty much anything. Toothache, headache, flatulence, opioids.
- [15:20]
Dan Snow
Yeah, okay. And cocaine as well.
- [15:22]
Kate Lister
Cocaine as well, yeah. Cocaine becomes really, really big and it's, you know, when they first start using it, it was this sort of medical miracle drug of it's going to fix everything because it peps you up and it makes, you know, things seem a bit more exciting. And so it's touted as this medical panacea. And then eventually people start to realize, oh, hang on a minute, it's not quite as good as we thought it was, but it's still prescribed for loads of stuff. I'll be back with Dan after this short break.
- [16:18]
Dan Snow
Does opium cure flatulence? Asking For a friend, there were medicines.
- [16:23]
Kate Lister
Containing opium that were marketed to do that. I am not a medical person, but I think it would probably take everyone into the room to the point where they didn't care.
- [16:32]
Dan Snow
So would that help if you all take opium? It would cure my, say, or my friend's function?
- [16:37]
Kate Lister
Yes, exactly, because no one would care anymore. But you get opium dens cropping up all over the place and they're in this kind of weird legal limbo of, well, can we arrest them, can we not? Is it medicinal, is it not? This thing comes into force where if you're poor and you're caught with drugs, you'll be arrested. If you're rich, then you have a medical issue.
- [16:54]
Dan Snow
Drugs wise, opium, some cocaine and cannabis.
- [16:58]
Kate Lister
Cannabis was around, but it wasn't as prominent. You don't get the first tightening of UK laws around cannabis until it's like 1928. And then that becomes this sort of marijuana menace idea that comes in a little bit later. So it was in the mix, but it wasn't as much cause for concern.
- [17:16]
Dan Snow
It's always a good sign if they're tightening up laws. You know that in the years preceding it, there's something going on.
- [17:21]
Kate Lister
Yes. Somebody has been doing something that they shouldn't have been doing.
- [17:23]
Dan Snow
That's always the red flag for a historian. Were there any famous bars and clubs?
- [17:27]
Kate Lister
Oh, yeah. If you were in 1920, Soho, you would want to go to the 43 Club, which was run by the queen of nightclub life, Kate Merrick, who was born in Dublin. So she's an Irish woman and she marries a doctor, she's separated from him and she ends up in London with eight kids that she has to support at the age of 43, which is not a great situation to be in. And she sees an advertisement that somebody needs some help running, I guess like a tea party or a tea dance or something. So she gives that a go and then she thinks, sod this, and she decides that she's Gonna open the 43 Club on Gerrard street in Soho. But that wasn't an easy thing to do because of the Defense against the Realm act, saying we can only sell alcohol for two hours a day and until 8pm so Kate goes, sod that, and she just did it anyway. She did it without a license. She did it without a venue license. She just opened it. She spent loads of money building this club and then it became the go to place. Like Tallulah Bankhead went there, Evelyn Waugh went there. The bright young things, beautiful set. And it was Raided repeatedly, like, constantly. Just bam, bam, bam. And she went to jail several times. And she becomes this, like, celebrity in her own right and the public can't get enough of her because every time she's in the dock, she's there, like, draped in furs and diamonds and just coming up with things like, well, if you win a nightclub, this is what you have to expect. It's like people just adored her and the worse she got, the more they loved her for it. I think one of the worst things that she bribed police officers in the end to tell her when there was gonna be a raid. And she got caught doing that and sent to jail again. But, yeah, she became London's nightclub queen and made a ton of money doing it. Sent all of her kids to private schools, but just was repeatedly arrested, raided, and then her health suffered. I think she was like 59 when she finally died, but she was legendary for it.
- [19:23]
Dan Snow
Tell me about the real life dope girls.
- [19:25]
Kate Lister
The real life dope girls. It was probably a case that the media spoke about them and made them into more of a thing than they actually were, but it was symptomatic of a panic of drug abuse, basically, of drug addiction. And you have to remember the 1920s, no one's really spoken about addiction and drugs in this level of a prominent way before now. We're so used to people talking about drugs and addiction, it can still shock us, but it doesn't have that novelty that every single paper will be running stories for months and months and months and months. The dope girls did that. They became symptomatic of post war crisis. And really what it is is it's young women coming to London to try and make their name and getting caught up in drugs and wanting to take loads and loads of drugs. And they were centered around Soho. Some of them were working in some of the nightclubs, some of them were dancing. Soho also attracted the aristocrats. So you get some people from quite wealthy backgrounds. Drugs are absolutely everywhere. And you do start to get stories emerging in the press of overdoses, of deaths occurring. And then every single time that happens, it blows up again of like, dope scared, dope girl, fiend, degenerate. And you can imagine, like, everybody you know who isn't in Soho and off their face, just little housewives and their husbands just sat reading the papers going, oh, God, absolutely terrible. And they're kind of like living vicariously through that. So they were definitely there. And it was. How can you say it in any more succinct way? It was young women who were off their faces in the 1920s. The flapper age, the fast set jazz, it girls before it girls, it girls before it girls. And they really were. They could dominate newspaper columns. People were fascinated by them. One of the first it girls to be known more for her addiction than anything else was Brenda Dean Paul. And she started out as an actress. She kept trying to act all throughout her life, but she was basically more famous for being an addict than anything else. Cause the police would keep arresting her and then it would be in the press and then she'd get taken to court and then it would be in the press and she fed on it. She published an autobiography which was just basically how much drugs she. Do you remember like the press were at its worst when Amy Winehouse was clearly very ill and they were obsessed with that and just everyday running stories about her. That was exactly what was happening with Brenda Dean. But in the 1920s, so recognisable, so recognizable, so recognizable. That same level of obsession and oh my God, what's she doing to herself? It's absolutely terrible. That same obsession about this excessive life that she's living. But also the papers can't stop writing about it and we can't stop reading about it.
- [22:00]
Dan Snow
And presumably they're all young glamour associated with Richmond Path. You can see why. It's a great story.
- [22:04]
Kate Lister
Yeah, you can. It's got everything in it. And Brenda Dean Paul was. She was very beautiful as well. She had that real chiseled look and she never lost a look, she was always beautiful. So you have super glamorous. She comes from not quite an aristocratic background, but her mother was a composer, I think, so quite a well known background. And then there's this young woman who's been attracted to booze and jazz and drugs and men and isn't it terrible? Yeah, that was her story.
- [22:30]
Dan Snow
Sounds terrible.
- [22:32]
Kate Lister
She had a great time. One of the first stories of the dope girls to really capture the press's attention and horrify the nation was of a young actress called Billy Carlton who died in 1918 just as the war is drawing to a close. She was only 22 years old and Billy was quite a successful actress. She was sort of the darling of. She was really popular. The press were already writing stories about her. She dies of a suspected cocaine overdose, Body's found and then the inquest for that it comes out about the lifestyle that she had been living and the people around her had been living and how much of it is true and how much of it was press Hysteria. But by the time they were done telling the story that there'd been cocaine fueled orgies and absolutely awash with drugs. And there was a link made with the Chinese immigrant community in London. Just one guy who was married to the woman who might have given Billy the drugs. And that was enough to create this image of the Chinese immigrant opium den. Always a man preying on young, innocent white women, which was how Billy was portrayed. Being seduced, being force fed these drugs and then meeting a terrible, terrible end. And it becomes this image that the media absolutely runs with of these Chinese opium dens drawing in innocent white girls. And that was all linked to the Billy Carlton case.
- [24:00]
Dan Snow
So it's a story about celebrity, but also drugs, race and migration as well.
- [24:04]
Kate Lister
It's fascinating. Yeah. And you get the Fu Manchu novels that were written by Sax Roemer were based in part on what was happening in Soho. Presenting Chinese men as these sort of evil degenerates who are preying on unsuspecting young women. It became a real thing. It was completely mad.
- [24:24]
Dan Snow
Just sounds like a classic moral panic in a way, doesn't it? So nice. White women from young women from good families disappearing into that London into a den of iniquity where they're preyed upon by foreigners experimenting with new drugs. I mean, it just feels like it's got all the elements that now are very recognizable.
- [24:41]
Kate Lister
It does. And it was for the first time. So this is all very new. The novelty of it keeps it going for years and years. And of course, unchecked racism kept it going as well. The threat of Chinese opium was known as the Yellow Peril in the press at the time. And yes, it was a story that they ran and ran with. It was a moral panic.
- [25:02]
Dan Snow
Yeah, it's just a classic moral panic.
- [25:03]
Kate Lister
It is. And they had characters in and around Soho that they used to fuel that. So one of the most notorious characters in the drug trade was a guy known as Brilliant Chang. He'd come from Canton originally. I think he was born in like 1885 or something like that. He comes to Britain and originally starts working in restaurants. He owns restaurants. And quite quickly realizes that you can make a lot more money selling drugs instead of food. So he starts selling drugs, cocaine, predominantly to his customers. Some accounts say that he would only sell to pretty white women. How accurate that is, I'm not entirely sure. But he becomes this enfant terrible in the British press of like, every time he gets mentioned, it gets worse and worse. There's some dispute about how involved in drugs he actually was. And how much the British press. Cause by the time the British press were done, they were calling him Britain's dope king. And it's like he might have been Britain's dope king or he might have been dealing out of his restaurant, but he became the focal point for the British press. He became everything that they hated. And he had a very colorful love life. Women loved him, it would seem. He was very charming. And he was implicated in a few deaths from overdoses, but nothing was proven.
- [26:24]
Dan Snow
It sounds like sometimes these people enjoyed the press tension, almost leaned into it.
- [26:29]
Kate Lister
It does. Bit for someone like Brilliant Chung, the press intrusion. So he gets put on trial because he's implicated in a case involving a woman called Violet where she's caught with drugs. And the police say that he's the one that gave them to her. He's found not guilty of it. But the press focus on him makes it almost impossible for him to live his life in London. It certainly makes it very difficult for him to deal any drugs in London because now everybody knows who he is, everyone knows his restaurant. He's got this awful reputation. And eventually he is arrested for drug possession on slightly, not jump jumps charges. But it's almost like the police went, oh my God, there's some cocaine. Quick, arrest him. And then he gets put in and then he gets deported and we don't know what happens to him, really. Yeah. And he was the supposed dope king of Soho.
- [27:12]
Dan Snow
Does the government act.
- [27:14]
Kate Lister
The government acts eventually. So they're using this Defense against the Realm act, which covers an awful lot. It was basically brought in so the government can go, if anything might be upsetting the war effort, we can do something about it. But eventually that gets crystallized into the Dangerous Drugs act of 1920, which then makes possession of cocaine and opium illegal. But also you are still allowed it for medical use. So it's a slightly gray, weird area. And the British way was that was slang for the fact that your doctor just could just prescribe anything to you. So that was still how most people could get hold of it quite easily.
- [27:51]
Dan Snow
And do you see? Is there an attempt to clean up Soho?
- [27:54]
Kate Lister
There's always attempts to clean up Soho. There's always attempt. And it becomes like Soho becomes this repository of everything that's wrong in the country. Everything's been projected onto it. So there's constant efforts to shut down the nightclubs. The MPs, politicians are always trying to say, we're going to clean up this menace. But of course, people really like going to the nightclubs. So it was always going to be an uphill struggle for them. But, yeah, there's always attempts to clean it up and they usually fail.
- [28:23]
Dan Snow
One of the amazing things about the modern day is that now people talk with nostalgia about nightclubs. They're closing because everyone's just sitting at home on their devices and all the politicians like, we should be out dancing and drinking like we were when I was young.
- [28:34]
Kate Lister
Yeah. The MPs from the 1920s would have loved that. If only they'd known. They just had to give people iPads. That was all that had to happen and they could have fixed it all.
- [28:42]
Dan Snow
So Soho survives. The government cannot shut it down. It remains exciting and seedy and fun all the way through to the late 20th century.
- [28:49]
Kate Lister
It does. But the thing that does for it eventually, because if you walk around Soho today, it become immediately obvious there aren't any opium density or illegal nightclubs or the flappers have long since moved out and it's quite gentrified. The thing that did for it in the end wasn't the repeated police crackdowns or it wasn't them trying to change the laws or bring in drugs. It was money. It became the trendy area to be. So people start buying up the property. This is what happens. You see this replicated all over the place. An area becomes, like, super cool because it's kind of edgy, it's kind of like, cool. And, you know, this is where the naughty stuff happens. So then it becomes a popular area to buy in and then people start buying it. You see that in Notting Hill, that's happened there as well. That used to be quite a sort of edgy, like, urban area. And then until the yummy mummies moved in. So what happened in Soho is it gets gentrified and then because there's more money in the area, more people are living there, it's easier to pass laws about, you know, residential committees and people saying, well, you can't have that and you can't have that. And Soho was forced to clean up its act. It hasn't completely clean. It's still got that.
- [29:58]
Dan Snow
Thank goodness it's got a twinkle its eye.
- [30:00]
Kate Lister
Yeah.
- [30:01]
Dan Snow
And I guess the population collapsed from 19th century to the mid 20th. Like 17,000 people used to live there. It got down to 3,000 people living there. Are people moving in again or is it all cool artistic studios?
- [30:13]
Kate Lister
I don't think. I mean, I think you can still buy property if you wanted to, but it would set you back a lot. This is a long time since you could just afford some dives above an opium den for a bag of raspberries and a shilling.
- [30:26]
Dan Snow
Kate, you're thinking about the big move south. I see you as a Soho.
- [30:29]
Kate Lister
I would love to live in Soho but you'd need so much money to do it. But I think now it's mostly businesses. I don't think it is mostly residential Soho anymore.
- [30:39]
Dan Snow
Well, thanks Kate. You give me all the context I need now to enjoy my binge watch. Gonna check out Dope Girls on BBC iPlay.
- [30:51]
Kate Lister
Thank you for listening and thanks so much to Dan for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't go take in heroin. But you can like review and subscribe wherever it is that you get your podcasts and that will give you just as much of a high. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us@betwixtoryhit.com Coming up, we've got episodes on the history of fat phobia and the second part of our Dope Girl special. This podcast was edited by Tom Delaghi and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long, none of whom are Dope girls. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets, the History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.