Sex Work in the American Revolution

Summary

Betwixt the Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society

Episode: Sex Work in the American Revolution

Host: Dr. Kate Lister
Guest: Professor John McCurdy, Eastern Michigan University
Date: April 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and eye-opening episode, sex historian Dr. Kate Lister welcomes Professor John McCurdy to explore the oft-hidden world of sex work and sexuality during the American Revolutionary War. Together, they unravel the social, political, and economic forces that shaped sexual labor, attitudes towards queerness, and the lived realities of women and marginalized groups in an era of upheaval. With trademark humor and candor, Lister and McCurdy shine a light on stories rarely found in standard history textbooks.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: The American War of Independence

• Historical Context ([05:57]-[08:32]):

  • John explains the British-American tensions post-Seven Years War, the imposition of unpopular taxes and laws (Stamp Act, Quartering Act, etc.), and the eventual spark of war at Lexington and Concord.

    "There’s a sense again, that the American colonies had pretty much been on their own ... Parliament has never legislated us before and now Parliament is stepping in to do this." — John McCurdy [07:23]

• State of the Armies ([09:54]-[10:36]):

  • British had a professional, well-funded force; Americans cobbled together an ad hoc military, inspired by leaders like George Washington.

• Civil Conflict ([11:01]-[11:33]):

  • Not all Americans wanted independence—strong loyalist factions and many who just wanted to avoid trouble.

2. Sex and Soldiers: The Ubiquity of Sex Work in War

• Soldier Demographics & Temptations ([12:57]-[13:36]):

  • Soldiers were mostly young, single men from humble backgrounds, surrounded by boredom, alcohol, and opportunities for mischief.

    "Being away from home is an opportunity to get into trouble. And we know this is true again on both sides, and it’s pretty common in most wars." — John McCurdy [13:02]

• Official Attitudes vs. Reality ([14:02]-[15:05]):

  • Military leaders preached morality but turned a blind eye unless sexual escapades disrupted order.

    "They really look the other way. The officers really look the other way. Unless the sex causes a problem…" — John McCurdy [14:42]

• Consequences: Venereal Disease ([15:13]-[18:14]):

  • Syphilis and gonorrhea were rampant; treatments were primitive and often punitive ("scrubbing with disinfectant").
  • British records reveal hospitalizations: e.g., 115 severe cases in the Continental Army at a given time.

3. Camp Followers: Roles and Realities

• Who Were the Camp Followers? ([19:18]-[20:14], [23:44]-[24:19]):

  • Included wives, girlfriends, laundresses, and sex workers.
  • American authorities (e.g., Washington) tried to ban women from camps but had to relent due to their essential labor.

    "The army does... The British army at least will set aside so many rations per company for the women. So they are being fed, they are being housed." — John McCurdy [24:04]

• Economic Motivation ([24:19]-[25:14]):

  • Sex workers preferred British clients due to reliable pay; American soldiers often couldn’t pay.

    "If you're a woman who's a sex worker, you want to target British soldiers because the British soldiers are being regularly paid ... American soldiers are notoriously not paid." — John McCurdy [25:11]

• Infamous Cases ([24:34]-[25:10]):

  • Polly Robinson and Marcy, drummed out of the American camp for suspected prostitution.

4. The Jackson Whites: Systemized Sex Work

• The Contract for Sex Workers ([25:43]-[28:11]):

  • Captain Jackson was paid £7,000 to bring 3,500 women (mostly from Liverpool, later the Caribbean) to New York for British troops.
  • Women—black and white—were housed in a stockade and later expelled post-war, forming a mixed community north of the city.

    "He fills 20 transports or 20 ships full of women, sends them across the ocean... when the British withdraw ... they find themselves driven out of the city..." — John McCurdy [27:23]

• Fate of the Women Post-War ([28:32]-[29:04]):

  • Expelled and marginalized; the term "Jackson whites" lingered as a reference to their descendants.

5. Enslaved People, Sex, and War

• Sexual Exploitation of Enslaved Women ([29:04]-[30:52]):

  • Enslaved women were frequently victims of sexual exploitation, both as forced labor and sexual labor.

    "In terms of enslaved women, they're being prostituted without being prostitutes..." — John McCurdy [29:25]

• Promised Freedom for Enslaved Recruits ([30:58]-[31:45]):

  • British offered freedom to enslaved men who joined them; some 3,000 African Americans evacuated to Nova Scotia after the war.

6. The 'Holy Ground': New York’s Red-Light District

• Prostitution Hotspots ([32:09]-[33:44]):
  • New York’s “Holy Ground” emerged as a center for sex work, located near St. Paul’s Chapel and the city's main thoroughfares.
  • Sailors, soldiers, and college students were prime clients.

7. Queerness and Male Sexuality in the Revolution

• Attitudes and Notable Case ([33:44]-[38:39]):

  • Male-male sexual encounters happened, especially in all-male spaces like armies.
  • The case of Chaplain Robert Newberg, accused of same-sex liaisons and subjected to a lengthy court martial.

    "If they were to make that argument, you possibly are looking at the death penalty for both of these men." — John McCurdy [36:23]

  • Subtler punishments were employed; ultimately, Newberg lost pay but kept his position.

• British vs. American Attitudes ([41:21]-[42:01], [45:21]-[46:23]):

  • British were much more preoccupied with prosecuting homosexuality; in American contexts, records show more of a “live and let live” approach.

8. Post-War Sexual Morality and Literary Reflections

• Aftermath and Changing Mores ([42:51]-[44:52]):
  • Post-war America saw a cultural shift toward conservatism—warnings against promiscuity proliferated, notably in “seduction novels” like Charlotte Temple.

    "There's also sort of a cultural shift that as the United States is becoming a nation ... it needs to have a moral code." — John McCurdy [42:51]

• Lasting Legacy ([45:21]-[46:23]):
  • Conflict forced Americans to talk about sex differently, but postwar emphasis was on “resetting” moral standards and nation-building.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Boredom & Vice:

  "Most of these soldiers will get up to no good, right? They drink. Drink is very easily accessible on the British side... there's lots of alcohol around. So young men getting drunk, being bored, get up to no good." — John McCurdy [13:36]

• On Venereal Disease Treatments:

  "By the First World War, the treatment... would be taken to a specialist hospital... and then basically they'd have their genitals scrubbed with disinfectant." — Kate Lister [15:48]

• On Contracting Sex Workers:

  “He signs a contract at £7,000, and he agrees to deliver some 3,500 women to New York… one of the transports doesn't make it... he sends a ship to the Caribbean to find black women.” — John McCurdy [25:43]

• On Enslaved Women:

  "They're being prostituted without being prostitutes. Right. So they're not receiving money for any of their work, sexual or otherwise." — John McCurdy [29:25]

• On British vs. American Queerness:

  "The obsession with men, having sex with men, it seems to be, I don't want to say uniquely British, but is a very British concern." — John McCurdy [45:21]

• On Postwar Sexual Conservatism:

  “Once you give up yourself to one man, what’s to stop you from giving yourself up to other men? Next thing you know, the woman has a child, and ultimately the books end with the woman dying.” — John McCurdy [44:30]

• On the Contradictions of War & Sex:

  "If you think you’re going to get blown up, yeah, I’ll have a blowjob, thank you very much." — Kate Lister [42:51]

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Introduction to the War & Societal Structure – [05:06]-[12:38]
• Sexuality and Misbehavior in Army Life – [12:38]-[15:48]
• Venereal Disease and Punishment – [15:48]-[18:14]
• Camp Followers and Sex Work – [18:14]-[25:14]
• The Jackson Whites/Sex Worker Transportation Scheme – [25:43]-[29:04]
• Sexual Exploitation of Enslaved Women – [29:04]-[30:52]
• British Offers to Enslaved Men – [30:58]-[31:45]
• New York's Holy Ground and Urban Prostitution – [32:09]-[33:44]
• Queerness, Court Martial, and Robert Newberg's Story – [33:44]-[39:08]
• Shifts in Sexual Morality after the War – [42:51]-[44:52]

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Final Reflections

This episode offers a candid, often shocking look at sex, power, and commerce in wartime America. With stories ranging from government-contracted sex workers to the fate of enslaved women and the muted narrative of queerness in the colonies, Kate Lister and John McCurdy peel back the layers of myth to expose the raw human desires and challenges that shaped the Revolutionary era.

For listeners, it’s both a reminder of how much has changed—and how much has stubbornly stayed the same.
"You’ll laugh, you’ll wince, and you’ll ask yourself how much has actually changed." — Kate Lister [02:07]

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Recommended further reading:

• Vicious and Immoral: Homosexuality, the American Revolution, and the Trials of Robert Newberg by John McCurdy

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For questions, episode suggestions, or to say hello, contact: [e-mail]

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Transcript

[Kate Lister]

Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods, or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to history hit where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries plus new releases every week covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe.

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[Kate Lister]

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[John McCurdy]

Liberty.

[Kate Lister]

Liberty.

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[John McCurdy]

I sold my car in Carvana last night.

[Kate Lister]

Well, that's cool.

[John McCurdy]

No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong.

[Kate Lister]

So what's the problem?

[John McCurdy]

That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes as smoothly. I'm waiting for the catch.

[Kate Lister]

Maybe there's no catch.

[John McCurdy]

That's exactly what a catch would want me to think.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. You need to relax.

[John McCurdy]

I need to knock on wood.

[Dish Network Advertiser]

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[John McCurdy]

I think it's laminate. Okay. Yeah, that's good. That's close enough.

[Kate Lister]

Car selling without a catch.

[Strayer University Advertiser]

Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up.

[Kate Lister]

These may apply. Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. How are you? It's so nice to see you again. Welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the podcast where we get smutty and naughty, but we all pretend that we're learning things at the same time, so it's fine. But before we can do any of that, I Do have to tell you, this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adult things and an adultery way of covering a range of subjects. Used to be an adult too, right? Proceed at your own caution. It's 1776 and I've snuck into a British army camp just outside of New York. The Revolutionary War is raging and it seems like these Americans don't really want to be ruled by a king. Huh, that's me. Just pausing here to let you fill in your own punchline. But here amongst the British camps, as well as the men packed in tents, there are a few women here, too. These are the camp followers. Some are the partners and wives of soldiers. Some are here to do laundry. Some are here to wash socks. And some are here to sell sex. Sex work is a common and often under talked about feature of war. Except for me. I talk about it a lot. And there was a lot of it in the War of Independence, let me tell you. And we shall be expl. Exploring that and finding out more. Let's do it. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. Sex and war go together like. Well, war and killing people, really. It's an incredibly common pairing throughout history. Wherever you find war, you're gonna find sex. I imagine that there's something about impending doom that will make you rethink your position on casual sex. That would do it. But how was sex and sexuality a feature of the American War of Independence? How did American and British attitudes to queerness differ at the time? And why? Why was the New York red light district called the Holy Ground? Well, today we're joined by the marvelous John McCurdy, professor at Eastern Michigan University, who is a specialist in sexuality during America's War of Independence. And he is gonna help us find out more. And whilst I'm here, I wanted to let you know one more time about the two Betwixt the Sheets live shows that are happening in May. There's one in Edinburgh. I think that we're running out of tickets for that one, so you'll have to be quick. And another one in London, and they're getting a bit thin on the ground too. But tickets are available at Thane.co.uk, search for betwixt the Sheets and we will see you there. Right, without further ado, let's crack on. Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Professor John McCurdy. How are you doing?

[John McCurdy]

I'm wonderful, thank you for asking.

[Kate Lister]

How's everything stateside? Oh,

[John McCurdy]

a little complicated, but we're carrying on the best we can.

[Kate Lister]

I ask that because you. Well, one of your areas of specialism is the American War of Independence and that's what we're here to talk about today. Just give us the nod, John, and we can probably send the King over to take back control, like if you.

[John McCurdy]

Well, I think we have, I think we kind of have the King thing covered. So currently. But

[Kate Lister]

for anybody that is listening. Well, you know, we have so many listeners in America, so they will certainly know what the War of Independence was, but it's not something that's widely covered on the British curriculum. So could you, before we get into the smutty naughtiness of it all, could you just give us a bit of an understanding of the War of Independence, what that was?

[John McCurdy]

Sure, sure. Yeah. So, you know, just to give you a really brief sort of overview. So historians say there's really sort of two ways of thinking about it. One, it's a long term separation, one it's short term effects. So on the one hand, the colonies were never really a New England. They were a plantation economy. They had much more racial and religious diversity than England. There was no real central government, there wasn't a very powerful army. There's already changes going on going back to the 17th century, but specifically there's a series of events that we know will precipitate what we call the American Revolution. And this comes at the end of the Seven Years War as Britain has racked up a great deal of debt from fighting France in the war and also has realized that the American colonies are doing their own thing outside of the constraints of the empire. And so there's an attempt to sort of bring everybody back in line with laws like the Stamp act, the Quartering act, the Sugar act, the Currency act, which the Americans hate because they see this as an infringement on their rights and also say, well, Parliament has never legislated us before and now Parliament is stepping in to do this. So this will begin in 1765, this sort of what we might call misunderstanding or certainly change in parliamentary law. And it takes about 10 years from that to progress to a full scale war.

[Kate Lister]

So this is Britain attempting to run the American colonies as if it's part of Britain, but it's definitely not. It's. It's American and they're trying to like levy taxation and things like that as well. And that's what's making people a little bit testy.

[John McCurdy]

Yes, yes. So there's a, there's Frustration and control. And then a sense again, the sense that the American colonies had. Had pretty much been on their own. What Edmund Burke called salutary neglect, that the colonies did their best when they were sort of left alone.

[Kate Lister]

Okay. And no taxation without representation.

[John McCurdy]

No taxation without the representation. Yeah, exactly. So the Americans would say, parliament is taxing us, but we don't have any seats. Parliament.

[Kate Lister]

I mean, it's fair play. I have to say that. I can see that they had a point there. So how do things come to a head? Because, like, it doesn't start with a war, does it? But it gets pretty bloody.

[John McCurdy]

It gets pretty bloody. So again, they're about 10 years of. Of back and forth before shots are fired at two small towns in Massachusetts, Lexington and Concord. The British have sent large army to Boston and they're trying to round up weapons and ammunition on the countryside. And this knowingly leads to a confrontation and an exchange of bullets. It takes about a year and a half, four or less. Maybe about a year from those shots. Those shots are in April of 1775 to the Continental Congress in Philadelphia declaring independence. Of course, 250 years ago this year, on July 4th. Then this begins a very bloody war which lasts for eight years.

[Kate Lister]

So we were trying to take your weapons. Why were we trying to do that? We just didn't want things getting out of control.

[John McCurdy]

There was a sense that if these colonists have weapons, they're going to start using them against British soldiers, which they do. So it's not a. It's not really a, you know, crazy idea to go take those weapons.

[Kate Lister]

Okay. All right. So things are like they're getting. They're getting aggressive and they get. And then these shots are fired. The war itself, because it's not just the British and the Americans, is it? France gets involved in this, too.

[John McCurdy]

Right, right. So it starts off pretty localized, and there's a significant British defeat at what we call the Battle of Saratoga in upstate New York. And at that point, it looks like the British aren't nearly as strong as everybody thought they were. They're not going to be able to put down this revolt easily. And at that point, France comes in and says, we will formally recognize the United States and provide you with money, weapons, army, navy. And then this translates the war for independence into a global war.

[Kate Lister]

Why did they do that?

[John McCurdy]

Well, the French were looking to, I think, take Britain down a peg. So Britain had become so, you know. Exactly. A long standing dispute, certainly. But also this, that Britain was so successful in the Seven Years War. Right. It had success, successes not just in North America and in Europe, but Africa, India, the Caribbean, France and Spain as well. We're also sort of thinking Britain could lose a few colonies and not really

[Kate Lister]

suffer, and it would be okay.

[John McCurdy]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

But when you think about it, like, you know, the Britain at this point, it's. It's. Well, never since its military was pretty well structured, and they've been doing it for a long time, and they. They know how to fight wars and they know how to train soldiers. How is America doing at this point? Did they have their own army?

[John McCurdy]

I mean, not really. So this is one of the challenges, right? So the British have a professional army. They have trained soldiers. They have the bank of England so they can pay soldiers. And the Americans have none of this. So they have to put together an army on the fly. They're relying on the States to draft men or to encourage men to volunteer through bounties or payments.

[Kate Lister]

That is impressive. That is like, to not have an army and to go, right, we're gonna take you on.

[John McCurdy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kate Lister]

That's impressive.

[John McCurdy]

Right? Yeah. Well. And, you know. And luckily, the Americans have George Washington because there's really not a lot of other military expertise to lead this army. So a lot of the officers have not been in a war before. On the American side, was it.

[Kate Lister]

Popular is the right word. But were the American people. Were they behind this cause or were there. Were there people there going, hang on a minute, Let's. I want to remain British. Let's not go. Let's not start a fight?

[John McCurdy]

Both. There's probably a lot of popular support. There's also. We think there might be a very strong well of loyalism. Maybe one in five Americans were still loyal to the King throughout this. And then there were a lot of people who I'd say, would say didn't care or would change their positions back and forth. This is one of the problems the British run into when the British army goes through the south, the southern colonies. Initially, there's a great deal of support for the British, but then the soldiers start demanding quarters and supplies and recruits, and suddenly they're not quite so well loved anymore.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. Okay, so this is. It's not a civil war, but it's certainly like it's happening on American land. And it sounds like it's kind of like it's happening in people's towns and cities. This isn't something that's far away. It's right there. It's immediate.

[John McCurdy]

Yeah, yeah. Spreads across the continent in many ways. So all the major American cities, which are all Pretty small by our standards, or even by British standards at this point, are occupied or see fighting in the war, almost every colony will have troops marching through it. So it's a great deal of participation. There's a great deal of pain felt across the board.

[Kate Lister]

And how bloody was this conflict? I mean, all conflict is particularly nasty. But, like, what are we talking about here? Sort of the losses and the casualties.

[John McCurdy]

Historians have looked at this and said, in terms of participation in death rates relative to the population in the colonies at the time, this is equivalent to what the United States suffers in the Civil War, which is our bloodiest conflict. Conflict, or maybe even what the US suffers in World War II. So it touches everyone's life in one way or another.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, now, one thing that I have learned from doing this podcast, speaking to lots of historians, is wherever there is war and soldiers, there is sex as well. The two seem to go hand in hand, foot and glove, et cetera, et cetera. Is that the case here as well, or did everybody behave themselves?

[John McCurdy]

Well, that's never true. Right? People never behave themselves.

[Kate Lister]

Never, never ever happens.

[John McCurdy]

I mean, we're talking about soldiers. So on both sides, whether we're talking about the Continental or American army or the British army, these are going to be mostly young, single men. Most come from humble backgrounds. They don't bring a lot of money with them. They have little education or family connections. And, you know, being away from home is an opportunity to get into trouble. And we know this is true again on both sides, and it's pretty common in most wars. I mean, one of the issues that soldiers run into, again, on both sides is going to be boredom. So if you're not in battle, what do you do?

[Kate Lister]

Well, what do you do?

[John McCurdy]

Yeah. And most of these soldiers will get up to no good, right? They drink. Drink is very easily accessible on the British side. Drink is part of the rations, daily rations for the Americans. They have to acquire it other ways. But there's lots of alcohol around. So young men getting drunk, being bored, get up to no good. They get into fights with each other. They get into fights with civilians. There's quite a bit of problem caused by these armies.

[Kate Lister]

And that gets the heart of a sort of a conflict that seems to surround most wars throughout history is that social attitudes to sex and promiscuity have long been, no, you shouldn't do that. Please behave yourself. Don't do that. But also, there seems to be an awareness on the part of the leaders and the generals and the people actually organizing the war is that sex is Actually, quite an important part of this. I can't remember which British general it was in World War I that said, basically, if they don't fuck, they won't fight. Which, very crudely putting it, but it's this idea of like, we're supposed to outwardly condemn this, but also we understand there is an intrinsic value to letting these young men have sex and enjoy themselves.

[John McCurdy]

Right. And I. And I think this is a struggle in the 18th century, as we see later. Right. So on the one hand, the army is bringing in chaplains, there's morality lessons. They're telling the men, you know, reserve yourself, save yourself. Remember what will happen when you go home. At the same time, they really look the other way. The officers really look the other way. Unless the sex causes a problem. Unless at least sometimes it does. Sometimes.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, it does sometimes. And it seems. And throughout history, it's caused a huge problem for the army in terms of disease, mostly.

[John McCurdy]

Right. So this would be the biggest issue that both sides have is men having sex. Fine, you're not going to be able to stop it, but they're going to contract venereal disease. I mean, primarily it's going to be gonorrhea and syphilis are the common ones at this point in the 18th century, and those are. There's no cure for them right. Until the 20th century. So you might give the men mercury would be your best bet on something to do. But yeah, and the concern is, of course, that if they become sick with venereal disease, this is going to take them out of the fight. That's the biggest issue, is this could be. Makes them casualties of war in many ways.

[Kate Lister]

I'm not sure how they were dealing with it in the 18th century, but certainly by the First World War, the treatment, because they didn't have any antibiotics, tended to be that they would be taken to a specialist hospital or makeshift lock hospital. And then basically they'd have their genitals scrubbed with disinfectant and genitals and they would have, like, water and disinfectant put into the urethra until their bladder filled out. And then they would pass that again. They'd do that several times. Yeah. So really nasty. But also it would keep. Yeah, Sorry, everyone who's listening to this. Sorry. But also it was kind of designed to be punitive as well. It was like to try and discourage. This is the First World War. But if it's anything like that, I mean, it could take a soldier out for a couple of weeks at least.

[John McCurdy]

Yeah. No, there's A. There's a story, I think in my research, the most interesting story I came across was that it's a British soldier, and this is right before the war begins, the revolution begins. But his name is Thomas Madison. He's a private, and he has a woman that he was bringing into the barracks in New York. And everybody agrees this is not his wife. And in fact, they get into this conversation of, well, we know he's not bringing this woman into the barracks for lascivious, you know, reasons. And they say, well, how do we know this? And they said, well, he's lost his private parts to venereal disease.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, dear. Do they expand anything more on what that means?

[John McCurdy]

No, that's, that's the quote. Had lost his private parts to venereal disease. So I don't, I don't know exactly. They don't detail more than that, but I mean, they do, they do chase the woman out of the barracks, which then causes this man to desert.

[Kate Lister]

In your research, have you found sort of like the data on levels of venereal disease in the, in the wars of Independence? Like, what are we. Obviously it's all very hush hush, and I don't know if this is something that people actually wrote about, but what kind of numbers are we talking about here?

[John McCurdy]

I mean, it seems from what I've been able to find, again, you're right, we don't have good numbers. It's reported sort of irregularly. But among the American army, they'll talk about 20 men show up at Fredericksburg, New York in October of 1778, have venereal disease, 42 cases a couple months later. So, I mean, they report different places. I think the best information I found was there's a general return of the sick and wounded in the military hospitals from February of 1780. And this is the Continental army, and they report 115 patients who have venereal disease for whom it's so severe that they're hospitalized. So we want to add to that all the ones who are not hospitalized yet are probably carrying it around.

[Kate Lister]

The ones that go, I'm fine. No, I don't need to go to the hospital and have that done to me.

[John McCurdy]

I'm fine, thank you.

[Kate Lister]

So, I mean, it sounds like this is a big problem and it usually is in any kind of war situation. What measures were being taken to try and curtail this? Were any measures being taken?

[John McCurdy]

I mean, I think again, officially there's sort of a morality lesson. Right. And this would be similar to World War I, right, that just shout at

[Kate Lister]

Them and try and get them to stop it.

[John McCurdy]

Exactly. And I'm sure that works to an extent, but it is not highly effective. There's really no cure. And then even worse to. To tell you an even more horrifying story is there's a story that goes around in the 18th century that if you have a venereal disease, a way to cure yourself is to have sex with a virgin.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, no.

[John McCurdy]

Yeah. So this becomes. This becomes right there. There are several cases of men forcing themselves on. On young women, in theory, to cure themselves of venereal disease.

[Kate Lister]

Did they target sex workers? The. The authorities of, like, your. George Washington's and your. And your generals? Because that is normally something that comes up in warfare is that there's this idea of, like, look, we'd love to try and stop the men doing it, but they really like it. So we're going to try and stop the women having sex with them at all.

[John McCurdy]

So the army will always have camp followers. Right. Whether the army is stationed in a city, in barracks, or is moving from place to place and, you know, making makeshift tent cities, you always have women coming after. So some are coming as wives, girlfriends, because many of the soldiers are married with wives and children who just sleep with them in the barracks or in the tents.

[Kate Lister]

Were they supposed to do that? Were they supposed to be there, like, officially?

[John McCurdy]

It's always one of these things that sort of, you know, it's a. I guess there's two sides to it. On the one hand, the army doesn't like it. So in the. On the American side, George Washington really hates at the beginning of the war, and he tries to stop this. Yeah. And he eventually has to concede that, one, the women aren't going to go away. And then two, he realizes what the British had realized, you know, many years before, which is these women provide valuable service to the army because they'll do the work. They'll do the work that men don't want to do. They'll wash, they'll clean, they'll do the laundry.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[John McCurdy]

And even you don't have to pay them either.

[Kate Lister]

So it's not just sex, then. They're providing domestic labor for the troops.

[John McCurdy]

Right. And there's also a sense that, of course, if the men are going to be more happier to move along if they have their girlfriends and wives coming with them. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

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[Kate Lister]

I told her I've got dinner covered.

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[Kate Lister]

So if they don't get paid, what do they get? What's in it? Like, if I'm a woman in 18th century America, what. Why would I want to become a camp follower if there's no money in this for me? Why would I want to follow someone around to say, I can wash your socks and we'll have sex occasionally?

[John McCurdy]

Well, of course, if you're married, you know, you.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, yeah, I forgot you said that. Yes.

[John McCurdy]

You're sort of attached. And the army does. The British army at least will set aside so many rations per company for the women. So they are being fed, they are being housed. I mean, other women, I think, are going for adventure. And it's the same reason men join the war. Right. Adventure. See something other than your hometown. Maybe you'll meet someone, maybe you won't.

[Kate Lister]

Do we have any records of these women? Like names or anything like that? These people tend to be those that kind of just disappear from the records. But I'd love to know if you knew of any notorious camp followers.

[John McCurdy]

There's a woman named Polly Robinson who is drummed out of the corps. And this is drummed by the Continental army, by the American army in 1778. Polly Robinson, she's drummed out along with a woman named Marcy, because there's a suspicion that these women are engaging in prostitution. It's rare to have sort of professional prostitutes following the army, at least on the American side. Right. So if you're a woman who's a sex worker, you want to target British soldiers because the British soldiers are being regularly paid and so they have cash. American soldiers are notoriously not paid during the revolution. So.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[John McCurdy]

If you're doing sex for money, that's. That's not a very good point.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, that would be a terrible business strategy, wouldn't it? So they. They're going to head over to the, to the British camps. I wonder how that went down after the war. Because, you know, there are cases of when wars like in France after the Second World War, when women that had sex workers who'd been sleeping with German officers, they were publicly. They had their heads shaved and were really shamed. Have you found any records like that? Or when everything had calmed down and America got independence. Did they just go, well, don't do it again, but we're fine?

[John McCurdy]

Yeah. No, the, the most interesting story I found, and this is gonna. I might be jumping ahead a bit here, but there's A story of a man named Captain Jackson. He signs a con. He's a British officer. He signs a contract with the British Expeditionary Force to supply the British soldiers in New York City with women. With sex workers? No. He takes a contract at £7,000, and he agrees to deliver some 3,500 women to New York. The story is he fills 20 transports or 20 ships full of women, sends them across the ocean, and most of these are women coming out of Liverpool and British cities. But one of the transports doesn't make it. It gets caught in the. You know, not all ships make it across the Atlantic, and 50 women lose their lives. Captain Jackson doesn't want to lose this money. And so he sends a ship to the Caribbean, to the West Indies, to find black women, to bring them to New York to work as prostitutes. And so the story is that these women set up in a place called the Meadows, which is now in New York City in Tribeca. They set up a stockade. These women are placed in huts with a barricade, a stockade around it, primarily for these British soldiers to come and use. They even acquire a name. They're known as the Jackson Whites or the Jackson Blacks, depending on which race of woman you desired. And then to your question, to your point, what happens at the end of the war? Cause this happens sometimes. The British occupy New York City from 1776 until they finally withdraw at the end of the war in 1783. So I'm not sure exactly when they arrive, but when the British withdraw at the end of 1783, there are these women left. And the British have no intention to helping them transition to peacetime or find other work or certainly they're not gonna help them go home. So these women find themselves driven out of the city because, of course, the New Yorkers don't want them there. And so they're driven out of the city along with other maybe British deserters. They're driven mostly north of the city. And as the story goes, that both black and white will leave the city and go up into the Ramapo Mountains, which is north of New York, up into New Jersey and Southern New State, and they become a population. Apparently, Jackson whites is a term that as late as the 20th century, is a reference to this mixed race group of people who are driven out of the city. Who are these, you know, descendants of these prostitutes, these sex workers from revolutionary New York.

[Kate Lister]

John. Oh, my God. That's the most insane story. Ah, right. So the British paid a guy to supply their army with women.

[John McCurdy]

Right?

[Kate Lister]

Did they know that they were being supplied, these women, like, taken from Liverpool or wherever. Did they have any idea what was going to happen to them?

[John McCurdy]

Well, you know, many times in this. In this time period, many times you would be either enticed onto a ship or forced onto a ship. Right. I mean, being shanghaied is, you know, or being Barbados, as they would call it. Right. You're just being sort of captured. So I don't know how much agency. I assume very little women have. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

And then they're driven out of New York and form a collective somewhere in the mountains and their offspring and their kids. Oh, my heads, John, that's the most mad story you mentioned there.

[John McCurdy]

I thought you'd like that.

[Kate Lister]

Well, that's just wild. You mentioned the enslaved people. So I suppose we should talk about how. I mean, you know, none of this sounds like there's much agency at all, but that can only be compounded when we're talking about enslaved people. How did they factor into this kind of world?

[John McCurdy]

Right. So, I mean, it's. It's one of these things. If we're talking about African Americans, we know that there is certain African Americans who will engage in sex work, which makes sense because if you're a free African American woman, you're going to be at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale. Right. Women in general don't have a lot of other employment opportunities. So this is one way of making money. In terms of enslaved women, they're being prostituted without being prostitutes. Right. So they're not receiving money for any of their work, sexual or otherwise. And slavery is really based upon this idea of exploitation, physical exploitation, as well as labor exploitation. And so we. We have stories of that. You know, young men will help themselves to the bodies of enslaved women as a practice. Right. And this. This becomes more notorious in the 19th century as the Civil War approaches. And of course, the enslavers or the masters will be helping themselves with the bodies of the women because this produces offspring who can either be employed on the plantation or sold. I mean, in terms of beyond that, I mean, we do know you do have a few stories of sort of interracial sex that it's. It becomes very taboo in the early 19th century in the United States for obvious reasons, which, of course, when something becomes really taboo, it becomes, you know, really desirable, and everybody, you know, starts fantasizing about it. So there's neurotica that emerges at this point. And we know that in places like at least New Orleans, there's what's called the fancy trade. So light Skinned black women would fetch a higher price as prostitutes in New Orleans.

[Kate Lister]

Didn't the British also offer to pay enslaved people to come and fight for our side?

[John McCurdy]

Oh, yeah, no. And I'm not sure what the payment is, but there are various times the governor of Virginia and then later one of the generals in the British army will offer proclamations saying, if you're enslaved and you come to fight for the British army, we will guarantee your freedom.

[Kate Lister]

I bet we didn't know.

[John McCurdy]

Well, no, I mean, this one doesn't sound like us. Well, this is one of the. We know when the British evacuate New York City again, the last place they evacuate in what becomes the United States, I think it's about 3,000 African Americans will go with them, many of whom were runaway enslaved people from the south or from other places, and they will be taken to Nova Scotia where they're settled there. And of course, Nova Scotia's lovely, but also cold and hard to farm. And of course, it's out of this colony that the colony of Sierra Leone has formed.

[Kate Lister]

Was there any kind of proclamation for the women, for enslaved women, that we will come and fight for us? I don't think that there will have been.

[John McCurdy]

Yeah, that's a really good question. Which means. I have no answer that. Yeah, no, I mean, they're interested in men because they want them as soldiers, but I don't know what the guarantee is for women. I assume these black soldiers or black veterans are bringing wives and children with them. It would be surprising if they didn't.

[Kate Lister]

New York seems to have been a particular hotspot for sexual labor and sexual exploitation. You touched on it there. Is that the case? I mean, they. What do they call it, the Holy Ground in New York? Was it?

[John McCurdy]

Yeah, yeah. So New York, apparently, by the middle of the 18th century, has a reputation for prostitution and sex work. We seem to find evidence in Boston, Philadelphia. I mean, any major city that would have a seaport has sailors, is going to have. And later soldiers is going to have interest. But, yeah, no New York. We have records of reports at dockside at the Battery, some women even working on ships, going on ships, looking for work. But, yeah, probably the most notorious is a place called the Holy Ground, which, if you know New York City today, it would be the area around St. Paul's Chapel and it's called the Holy Ground because Trinity Church, which is the oldest Anglican or now Episcopal church in the city, owns great swaths of Manhattan. In fact, it still does. It's the richest congregation in the United States, I believe, because it still owns so much property in Manhattan. But this was an area that was. It's sort of interesting because at the time it's. The city's filled in. So at the time it was on a main walkway to go from the east river to the Hudson River. So a number of sailors and others are going to walk down these streets past this area. It's also in the immediate vicinity of King's College, which at the time was in this neighborhood. Not too far from where City hall is now. Of course, later it moves up to Morningside Heights and gets renamed Columbia University. So you have both sailors, soldiers and college students. So those are.

[Kate Lister]

That'll do it.

[John McCurdy]

Yep, yep, those are your customers that'll do it.

[Kate Lister]

Should we talk gay John? Should we talk about the gays? Because the other thing that happens is that obviously there's gonna be lots of women who are displaced and disenfranchised and selling sex. Being forced to sell sex is very lucrative. But the other thing that happens is when you get all boys together is you do get instances of same sex relations cropping up. And in fact, this is the subject of one of your books, Vicious and Immoral Homosexuality in the American Revolution.

[John McCurdy]

Yeah, there probably aren't professional male sex workers in the days of the American Revolution the way there would be women, professional female sex workers. But we do know we have different reports. So, yeah, I wrote this book and I looked at Robert Newberg, who's a chaplain or was a chaplain in the British army in the 18th Regiment. And he arrives in Philadelphia in 1773 to join his unit again as the religious leader, as the chaplain. But when he arrives, rumors are following him that he had had sex with a male servant back in Ireland. He was Irish. Shocking. And so he writes. So this rumor gets around and spreads throughout his regiment and all the enlisted men and officers. And nobody will then talk to him. They won't go to him for spiritual advice. And he becomes very angry about this. And so he demands justice. So he demands a court martial to clear his name.

[Kate Lister]

Is he putting on court martial? Like what?

[John McCurdy]

Oh, it's quite a case. I mean, this is how I got a whole book out of this, you know, this seemingly simple case because it's, you know, the story arrives with him that he's had been having sex with a man or possibly men. But the concern becomes he seems to fit a model, right? So he has flamboyant clothes, he's very argumentative, he's very elite and a fete. He's not sort of a traditional manly man of the army. So there's reputation going on here. He demands a court martial and he gets one. And so to your larger point, or getting back to the point, during the court martial, the army is really interested in this issue of the relationship he had with the soldier in the unit, an enlisted man, a man named Private Nicholas Gaffney. And Gaffney had run into some legal trouble. And Newberg, as the chaplain in the unit, said, well, I'll help you. I'll do the best I can to get you some legal advice. But this required Private Gaffney to go to Chaplain Newburgh's quarters late at night. Right. And there were reports that he was in his dressing gown as opposed to being in his proper uniform. And so this leads to the speculation that there's been seduction going on. And the army never comes out and says these two have had sex. Because if they were to make that argument, you possibly are looking at the death penalty for both of these men.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, of course.

[John McCurdy]

But instead the army is, gets into this sort of idea of it's been, he's. This man has been seduced. This young man is being manipulated to, to attack the army, to take down the, the British Empire, to take down the King. And the piece here that's interesting is it does build upon sort of speculation at the time. So servant could be a euphemism for sex worker in this time. And we do know again, I have never found stories of this in the American context, but there's many stories in the European context of young soldiers would sell their bodies to older officers for money. It's a whip, like women. It's a way of making a quick buck.

[Kate Lister]

So what happens then? So he takes what the army, he has the whole army court martialed because they think he might be gay. He goes on trial and what do they find?

[John McCurdy]

Yeah, it's a long trial. It takes place in New York in 1774, so not that long before the shots are fired at Lexington and Concord. It's a long, complicated trial because by the time it gets to this court martial, there are several other cases are all converging into this one. And so it's really interesting because the army has to says, we're not going to prosecute this guy for sodomy. That's too complicated. And they don't have proof. So instead they get into all these insinuations, inferences. This is where they talk about his character, his clothing, how he relates to other men. And ultimately they sort of split the deal. I split the difference. Right. The army orders him to receive no pay for six months. Reverend Newberg gets to receive no pay for six months, which is pretty gruesome, but, you know, an officer can't be disciplined sort of more harshly than that. The worst thing you can do to an officer is take his commission away, which they don't do.

[Kate Lister]

So he kind of won, but kind of didn't. Like, did he lose the case completely?

[John McCurdy]

He doesn't lose the case completely. The court is clear. They say, well, there's been all this speculation about what may or may not happened. We are gonna take no position on that. That's not been proven. But they do find that he's been disresp. Disrespectful to his commanding officer and to other officers.

[Kate Lister]

This sounds like a fabulous use of army time and resources, Right? What happens to him afterwards? Does he just vanish in the records? Where does he go?

[John McCurdy]

No, he transfers to another unit and he fights in or, you know, is a chaplain in the. In the British army in the 15th Regiment for another couple years. Ends up in the Caribbean, administering to troops down there. And I think it's in 1779 when he retires. So back in the day, if you were an officer in the British army and you retired, you would get half pay for life, which I really would like to have a retirement plan like that. So he retires, he goes back to Ireland, lives out a long life, dies in the 1820s.

[Kate Lister]

Do you think he was gay? Do you think he was a gay man?

[John McCurdy]

I researched this guy for several years. I could never find incidents of marriage or children. You know, he kind of disappears from the record after this court case, but he fits a profile.

[Kate Lister]

This is the number one rule in PR relations is don't start a court case or do an interview if you know you're guilty. That's. Just don't do that. That have. Like. That's what happened to Oscar Wilde, wasn't it? He tried to take a guy to. To court for saying that he was gay. Like, all of his mates were going, oscar, but, like, you definitely are.

[John McCurdy]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with John after this short break.

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[Kate Lister]

So we've got court cases of people going, look, I'm definitely not gay. And them going, well, you kind of are a bit. But, like, was there a wider recognition of homosexuality within the soldiery?

[John McCurdy]

So it's interesting. So as Newberg's case is advancing. Right. He has to. In order to get the court martial, this has to be approved by the commanding officer, Thomas Gage in New York. And Gage and several other officers will write about this and say, I really wish this wouldn't go to trial. This is just gonna stir up a lot of bad feelings. It can't be proven one way or the other. It's gonna. To your point, it's gonna waste everybody's time. And so I think that's, in many ways the Army's official position, and probably, you know, in many ways still is. If this isn't disrupting the core, we're gonna let it go.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[John McCurdy]

You know, again, Robert Newberg could have had plenty of sex with plenty of soldiers, and nobody would have cared.

[Kate Lister]

Nobody would have cared. Robert, you silly sausage. So it's kind of like things that happen in wartime. It's, it's. It's a strange environment. Like, all bets are off. And I can completely understand, like, if you, you know, like, the world feels very scary right now. And for most of us, luckily, but not for everyone, is you don't have the fighting in your front yard. You're not immediately confronted with it. And it feels frightening enough. But I can completely understand how in the middle of a war zone, your attitudes around sexual mores might change quite substantially, actually, if you think you're going to get blown up. Yeah, I'll have a blowjob, thank you very much. But it's sort of like what happens once it's gone. Like, once. Once the war's over and all these people sort of have to, like, go back to their normal lives. It's this kind of, like, crazy hedonistic period, for obvious reasons. And then suddenly everyone's got to go back and behave themselves again.

[John McCurdy]

Right. And that's. I mean, historians have written about this and they say, you know, the lead up to the American Revolution in the colonies is there's a great deal of print culture and erotic print culture. And this is very interesting. Right. And most. This is imported from England. Obviously, it's not really printed here. But after the war, after the Revolution, there is a conservative turn in the United States. And partly this is political. So they write the US Constitution, which gives a lot more power to the federal government, takes power away from states, and gives the federal government power to do things like tax the Americans so they can pay off their debts from the war. But there's also sort of a cultural shift that as the United States is becoming a nation to take its place among other world nations, it needs to have a moral code. And you want to impress upon your children that they need to be good Republican citizens. So don't drink, don't have sex outside of marriage. Right. You need to be moral to create this much better nation. And so it's interesting, the first novels that are popular in the United States are seduction novels. So they really. Yeah, they're mostly ripping off Richardson's Clarissa and Pamela.

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[John McCurdy]

But it's Charlotte Temple and the Coquette are two books written and become bestsellers in the 1790s. And they both tell stories of young women who have been seduced. Right. They're good, innocent, Christian young women. They meet a very dashing man. In one case, she meets a British officer who's arrived for the American Revolution and ultimately will give up her virtue. And then all hell breaks loose. Right. So once you give up yourself to one man, what's to stop you from giving yourself up to other men? Next thing you know, the woman has a child, and ultimately the books end with the woman dying.

[Kate Lister]

Of course it does. Of course it does.

[John McCurdy]

I mean, the only real question is, does. Does the child die too, or does the child live? That's the real question in these seduction novels. But these are read widely and are really seen as a way of impressing upon young people to preserve themselves and keep themselves virtuous and chaste before they marry.

[Kate Lister]

So as a final question then, and thank you so much, you've absolutely blown my tiny mind with all of this one. And I don't think you would want us to send the king over now to take back control after some of the things you've told me. We're awful. No, you better off off by yourself. But what did you think on a sort of a more micro level of the sexual behavior that's. That occurred, that was spoken about that. Because one thing about war is it does force people to talk about sex in new ways. Do you think that that had a lasting legacy for the American identity in the American psyche?

[John McCurdy]

I know that's a hard question because, I mean, in working and looking at homosexuality in this era, I was sort of interested that. That the obsession with men, having sex with men, it seems to be, I don't want to say uniquely British, but is a very British concern. And we know there are moral panics going on in London and across England in the 18th century, which will continue well to the 19th century in the colonies in what becomes the United States. There's really not much interest in pursuing these charges. And it's really kind of a live and let live look the other way. We don't really want the government investigating attitude in the 19th century. Of course, this changes in the 20th century. Right. And so I don't know. I do think. I don't know if that's a lasting effect of the war and how that happens, but I mean, the war, I think, does have this devastating effect upon the nation. And there is this deep interest in moving on and creating something new in separating who the American people are from who they were.

[Kate Lister]

John, you have been horrifying, frankly, to talk to, but fascinating. If people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

[John McCurdy]

So I'm a professor at Eastern Michigan University. So if anyone's ever in Ypsilanti, Michigan, which I can't imagine why anybody would ever be, other than my students, of course. But you can find my book on Amazon. My book is Vicious and Homosexuality, the American Revolution and the Trials of Robert Newberg.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you so much. You've been a treat.

[John McCurdy]

Well, thank you for having me. This has been lots of fun. You're delightful.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to John for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is you get your podcasts coming up, we've got episodes on Sappho, the OG of lesbian history, and another taking you inside the brothels of imperial Russia. And if you wanted us to explore a subject or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email [e-mail] this podcast was edited by Tim Arstell and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Freddy Chick. Join me again betwixt the sheets. The history of sex, scandal and society. A podcast by history Hit this podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

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