← Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Shag, Marry, Kill: Roman Emperor Edition
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- [00:00]
A
Hello everyone, it's me, your host, Kate Lister. I'm just jumping in before the episode to ask you for a little favor. If you are enjoying betwixt, and I hope that you are, we'd love it if you could vote for us for the Listeners Choice Awards at the British Podcast Awards. If you follow the link in the show notes, it should take you to the place you need to go and it would mean the world to us. We were shortlisted last year and the one before that and the one before that. We were so close and it just made us want it even more. I think we can do it this year. Right on with the show.
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Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. This is betwixt the sheets. I am me and you are you. But before we can go any further together, I do have to give you the fair dues warning, because if you keep listening and you get upset, well, fair do's. That one was on you. And here it is. This is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adultery way, covering a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. Oh, I think we've all had enough of that by now. Let's get on with it. Welcome to the streets of ancient Rome, where I am going full millennial TV presenter and plucking three emperors and letting today's guest decide whether they would shag, marry or kill them. I know, I know, it's savage and it devalues humanity, but oddly enough, that is something the Roman world in the early 2000s had very much in common. Plus, you have to admit, it's quite satisfying to take the power away from these bloodthirsty egomaniac emperors for once, albeit a good couple of thousand years later than we'd like. It's gonna be quite the job convincing them all to come back to the studio with me, though, so bear with me and I will see you there. What are you, a funny man?
- [03:51]
F
Oh, money. Of course, you're supposed to rise when.
- [03:54]
A
An adult speaks to you.
- [03:55]
F
I mean, perfect copies of whatever my.
- [03:57]
A
Boss needs by just turning a knob.
- [04:00]
F
And pushing the button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness.
- [04:10]
A
What beautiful diamond goodness had nothing to do with it, deari. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, History of Sex Scare Scandal in Society with me, cad Lister. Roman emperors probably didn't have to face that much criticism and rejection. Well, I mean, they. They did, but not to their faces. I think that's probably fair to say, because if you were gonna do that, you would end up on the pointy end of a sharp sword pretty damn quickly. Luckily, we are thousands of years hence and so we can ridicule and reject them all we want. Hurrah. And joining us today to assess whether she would shag, marry or avoid three Roman emperors we have chosen is the amazingly fun and fantastic historian and author Emma Southern. But before we head back to the Roman world once more, I do have to ask you if you would possibly just give us a cheeky vote for the British Podcast Awards Listeners Choice Award. I know we've asked you a gabillion times, but think of it. This way, the sooner you vote, the sooner we'll win it, and then the sooner we might never have to ask you this again. All right, Goblets and togas at the ready betwixt us. Let's do this. Well, hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Emma Southern. How are you doing?
- [05:25]
F
I'm very well, thank you. I'm delighted to be back, as always.
- [05:29]
A
Well, thank you very much for coming back. And because you have very kindly come back, we've decided that we're going to play a game this time around. We're going to play shag, Marry, kill in ancient Rome. I have had to have this sort of explained to me a little bit because I wasn't familiar with the original tv. I was aware of it, but I don't think I ever watched the show. Did you watch the show?
- [05:51]
F
It was Snog Marry A Void.
- [05:53]
A
That's the very thing. In case there are other people out there like me going, I'm not quite sure what's happening here. Could you explain what that program was, please?
- [06:01]
F
So Snog Marian Void was one of those kind of horrifying millennial TV shows where a TV presenter would grab women who they considered to be either wearing too much makeup or to be not natural enough.
- [06:16]
A
It's sounding Roman already. That sounds quite Roman.
- [06:19]
F
So too much makeup or like coloured hair, piercings, that kind of thing, like anything. And then they would put them in a computer called POD and then get members of the public to rate whether they would snog, marry or avoid them. And then they would give them a makeover which was like, fully early 2000s. Like, they'd make their hair brown or blonde and then put on more, quote unquote, natural makeup and a peplum. And then. And then they would put them back in there. And then the members of the public, by members of the public, I mean, men they grabbed off of the street of, like, Bristol or whatever would then say, oh, yeah, yeah, I'd shag her.
- [06:56]
A
This is peak millennial awful shaming tv, isn't it? All of those ones that were just about making people feel awful and about judging them 10 years younger. That was another one. Get some woman and make a stand in the street and get everybody to guess how old she is. Brilliant. Well done, everyone.
- [07:11]
F
Yeah, so it was exactly that. It was absolutely fixated on the idea of natural beauty, which involved, like, just the right amount of makeup, just the right amount of hair extensions in natural colours, and anything outside of, like, fairly defined lines were considered to be avoidable.
- [07:28]
A
Whenever I watch those kind of programs, I'm always like, you've taken someone that's clearly into goth makeup and heavy piercings and dreadlocks and all the rest of it. And what they've done is they've not tried to like tone that look down a little bit, but still lean into it. They go a complete, complete 180. And try and make her look like a member of the Walton family or something.
- [07:46]
F
Yeah, yeah, they absolutely would. And then they put them in like a nice floral dress and then men would say, yeah, I take her home to my mum.
- [07:54]
A
In another hundred years, people will study that, they'll study us. But we are here to talk about the ancient Romans. As per usual, they liked a natural beauty look as well. And they were also very judgmental around women.
- [08:07]
F
They were very judgmental. But we're gonna judge men, so.
- [08:09]
A
Yeah, we're gonna judge men, we're gonna judge Roman. Well, actually, Emma is. I'm gon to give her some Roman emperors and then she's going to decide if she wants to Shagmari or kill them. We thought that we'd up the ante a little bit. From what you've told me before, most of them should be killed, actually. So I'm not sure how well that this is actually going to go.
- [08:27]
F
Yeah, it's a struggle to imagine that any of them should have been allowed out. And even the ones that are kind of quote unquote good tend to be really annoying. So you still wouldn't want them around. I don't think I will say that my tastes, because we were having to go 90% on personality, although one of them is purely looks based. The ones that I think most people think are good are the ones that I would least like to hang out with.
- [08:52]
A
Okay. Okay. Interesting.
- [08:55]
F
Yeah.
- [08:55]
A
Before we get into it, it's fair to say that the Romans were pretty judgmental group of people, would you agree? Did they play their own version?
- [09:02]
F
I feel like they probably did, yes. Except they would do it in verse, probably. They would compose a poem about it and everyone would think it was wonderful.
- [09:11]
A
Okay, so first up. So I've run around the streets of ancient Rome and I found this guy Commodus, and I'm bringing him to you to say shag, marry, kill. First of all, who was Commodus? And let's talk about his pro points.
- [09:28]
F
Do you mean Commodus or Caracalla? Because I have very different feelings about those two.
- [09:32]
A
I mean the one from Gladiator.
- [09:34]
F
Well, Commodus is in Gladiator 1. And Caracella is in Gladiator 2, so that doesn't matter where it does. Oh no. Gladiator 1, Joaquin F. Yes, Joaquin Phoenix. Caraquela's the one I fancy.
- [09:46]
A
What do you find attractive about Cara Keller? Who on earth was he?
- [09:50]
F
So Carakela is the son of Septimius Severus and Julia Domna. So he has a Syrian mother and a Libyan father. Really? His major pro point is that he's hot as hell.
- [10:04]
A
Really? How do we know this?
- [10:06]
F
So all of his statues are of him. And he's got curly hair and a curly beard and the grumpiest face you ever saw. And he just looks very brooding, smouldering. He smoulders?
- [10:18]
A
Yes, he smoulders. He's a smoulderer. Right.
- [10:20]
F
And he's almost kind of looking down and away with a little kind of pouty lips. He's very handsome. Hang on, hang on.
- [10:27]
A
My producer has just sent me. Not a porch.
- [10:29]
F
He sent your picture.
- [10:30]
A
Oh, yes, right. That is a smoulder, isn't it? That's very pouty.
- [10:36]
F
I think I've said this before, but I was deeply upset by what they did to my boy in Gladiator 2, where they made him kind of tiny and incredibly pale and syphilitic and with a pet monkey when he is very large. And he's Libyan. Syrian. So he is definitely dark. He's beardy and he's smouldery like. He's very handsome.
- [10:57]
A
How do you know he's big?
- [10:58]
F
Partly because he looks big in his pictures and secondly because the main thing that he liked was being with the army. So he spends a lot of time on the front lines. He has no time for Rome particularly, has no interest in politics. He loves two things, one of which is his mum and the other one is running around on the front lines of the army with his male friends.
- [11:22]
A
Okay, okay. So was he an emperor?
- [11:25]
F
He's an emperor, yes. He's co emperor with his brother for a while and then kind of downpoint, he does kill his brother. We were doing so brutally. The problem with Caracalla, I would say if you put him in a pod and we're like, would you like to shag, marry or avoid this man? Very handsome. If you spoke to him for probably more than two minutes. Very poor personality.
- [11:48]
A
Oh dear. Apart from the murder stuff, why'd you say that?
- [11:51]
F
He also had his wife killed.
- [11:54]
A
Oh, oh.
- [11:55]
F
Which wasn't great.
- [11:56]
A
Was there grounds for this? Had she been like kicking kittens to death or anything.
- [12:00]
F
No, but he just didn't. I have an entirely unprovable, unproven. And suppose headcanon theory that he was gay.
- [12:09]
A
Well, when you said he loved his mum, I was.
- [12:11]
F
He loves his mum. Ooh.
- [12:13]
A
Okay.
- [12:13]
F
And the only thing that he likes doing is being intense with men on the front lines of things.
- [12:20]
A
He's very good looking. He's got a good moustache and a beard. Yep, he's smouldering. He regularly talks to his mum and he likes being intense with men.
- [12:29]
F
Wherever he travels, he takes his mum with him. And he got rid of his wife, largely, it seems, because he didn't really like having a wife. He, like, accuses her randomly of treason and then has her executed. So, like, personality wise, if you were to try and shag him, he would probably have you killed.
- [12:47]
A
That's a drawback, isn't it?
- [12:48]
F
It is a drawback, which is a shame. But he is, by some significant margin, the hottest of the emperors.
- [12:56]
A
Was he renowned as being hot at the time?
- [12:59]
F
You know what? They actually never really talk about how hot emperors are because it's only ever men writing about them.
- [13:05]
A
So this is literally you looking at the statues.
- [13:08]
F
Yeah, it is. It's incredibly subjective and it is entirely me. You know, he does some minor terrorizing of people.
- [13:18]
A
Is it bad within the scale of other.
- [13:21]
F
Compared to, like, a Commodus who tries to, like, rename Rome after himself, that's pretty bad. Or like a Nero or a Caligula. He's not that bad.
- [13:30]
A
Not that bad. The bar's low, but not bad.
- [13:32]
F
I mean, the bar's not great. He's quite popular. Elagabalus, who is not the next emperor, but the emperor after that, manages to come to power because his grandmother convinces everybody that he was Caracalla's illegitimate son. And everyone was like, we quite liked him. Okay, so he's not unpopular, I think largely because he doesn't spend a lot of time in Rome. He also likes a snazzy little cloak. His Caracalla is not his name. Caracalla is his, like, nickname that he gets because he goes to Britain on campaign and he discovers that Britons wear this snazzy little cropped cloak with a hood. Oh, it just kind of covers the shoulders and, like, comes down to the elbow and it's got a little hood.
- [14:15]
A
Cheeky.
- [14:16]
F
And he is so taken with it that he just takes to wearing it all the time.
- [14:20]
A
This is a lovely, lovely gay. Was he Italian? No, he wasn't Italian.
- [14:24]
F
No, he's not. Born in Rome. He's born in Gaul, actually.
- [14:26]
A
But he is a lovely French gay man.
- [14:28]
F
He's Roman. Yeah, well, Syrian on his mother's side, Libyan on his father's side. Roman ruler who is stabbed to death on the Persian border. In the end, how long does Caracalla last?
- [14:40]
A
Because none of them lasted very long.
- [14:42]
F
Oh, no, he gets like 20 years, maybe 15. Quite a long time.
- [14:45]
A
Okay, so very good looking.
- [14:47]
F
Largely because of his mum, who's great, like she holds everything together.
- [14:52]
A
Yeah, Loves his mum.
- [14:54]
F
Loves his mum.
- [14:55]
A
Snappy dresser.
- [14:56]
F
Yeah.
- [14:57]
A
And managed to hang on to power for quite a long time.
- [15:00]
F
Yeah. On the downside, does not seem to be interested in women at all. And when he did interact with women, he did tend to murder them.
- [15:07]
A
It is quite a drawback, that.
- [15:09]
F
It is a drawback.
- [15:10]
A
You have to take that into consideration.
- [15:12]
F
And I think if you tried to put him in a pod, he would murder you.
- [15:15]
A
Right. Damn it. Okay, all right. Okay, so we're gonna come back to him. I'm gonna ask you at the end because I've got three, and then we can sort them out. Okay, so, Cara Keller, he can go over here. Another option I have for you here is this rather fabulous specimen going by the name of Otho.
- [15:30]
F
Otho is emperor for a very short period of time.
- [15:34]
A
Not one of the most famous ones. Even when I saw the name, I was like, who? Who the hell's that?
- [15:39]
F
I am an Otho fangirl.
- [15:41]
A
Tell us who he is.
- [15:42]
F
Emperor for three months.
- [15:44]
A
Ah.
- [15:45]
F
In the years of four years.
- [15:48]
A
That's like work experience.
- [15:49]
F
Emperoring, kind of. Yeah. He's like an intern. But I think he is also not enormously. The reputation that he has is one of being a bit of a party boy until he becomes emperor. So he is mostly famous before he becomes emperor because he is friends with the Emperor Nero. And Nero persuades him to marry a woman called Poppaea because Nero wants to have an affair with her, but he can't hang out with her because he's already married. So you can't just have like a random single woman hanging around at his dinner parties. That would look suspicious. So he persuades Otho to marry Poppaea so that he can then bring her to the dinner parties, basically, and then Nero can go off and shag her.
- [16:34]
A
Hang on, I've got a picture here I've just been sent. Oh, hello. Right. Oh, he's gone full cock out in this statue.
- [16:43]
F
Oh, yes. Yeah, that's a statement. There are some very rude ones of Otho from the Middle Ages. So that one's a polite one.
- [16:53]
A
Why are they having rude statues of him? Did he have a reputation as being a rude emperor?
- [16:59]
F
He has a reputation as being a bit of a luxurious emperor. Or before he is emperor, he's luxurious. So he has this kind of stain of being friends with Nero. He has a stain of marrying Poppaea, who he then fell in love with Poppaea and so basically tried to stop Nero from having sex with her. So Nero exiled his wife, married Poppaea and sent Otho to be governor of Lusitania of Portugal.
- [17:23]
A
But Otho was married to Pompeia.
- [17:25]
F
Yes. Nero forcibly divorces them, marries Poppaea himself and then sends Otho away. Basically, then Nero is overthrown and Otho, who never really got over the stealing of his wife, joins in, supports the first claimant to the throne, Galba. And then when it turns out that Galba is a prick and just very poor at being emperor, he overthrows Galba. And he overthrows Galba with effectively a great personality.
- [17:52]
A
Wow. Okay, so tell me about his personality.
- [17:56]
F
So he is notorious for arriving in Rome and just being a friend to everybody. Like, he will do favours for people. He is just charming. At parties, depending on whether the source is friendly to him or not, they will either say that he tried to ingratiate himself or they'll be like, what a great lad. Like, he just turned up and was a delight to everybody. And he overthrows galba with about 17 soldiers because they all hate him so much that nobody will support him and then becomes emperor. And everyone is like, yeah, we seem fine with this. And then his three months as emperor are mostly spent in a civil war because there is another person who is trying to invade Rome. But he is just quite nice. He's just good at being an emperor.
- [18:41]
A
Why did he only last three months, then?
- [18:43]
F
So this is my absolute. Once you get to the end of this sentence is going to sound deranged, but this is my favourite thing about him. The whole period he's in this civil war. Vitellius in Germany had risen up against Galba and then continues against Otho. He just doesn't back down. And they fight three battles, which Otho wins two and then loses one. After the third one, he says, you know what? I don't want to be emperor enough to waste any more lives on this. I think that civil war is repellent. If this is going to be a real war and these battles are going to continue, then I refuse to be the cause of any more Roman lives. Lost. And he killed himself.
- [19:27]
A
Oh, I didn't see that come in.
- [19:29]
F
Yep.
- [19:30]
A
Do we know that he did this and he wasn't just bumped off and then, you know.
- [19:35]
F
No, he did. We have quite a lot of details. So Suetonius's father fought for Otho, so he has like first hand account of it. All of the sources say this and even the ones that are quite hostile to him and who are like, he was really luxurious and he spent too much money. But you know what, his death was great. And he kind of redeemed himself in death because he just says, I don't want this enough. I don't want any more people dying for me.
- [19:57]
A
Okay, a slightly selfless Roman emperor, then that's got to be unusual.
- [20:03]
F
And there's this one other point in his very brief reign where there's kind of a miscommunication amongst the soldiers and they invade a dinner party that he's having with some senators and no one's really sure why they're there. And he doesn't know if they're there to overthrow him or if they're there to kill the senators. And everyone is very afraid and he manages to just completely defuse the situation. He just stands up and is like, moves all the senators to safety so they know he's not trying to kill them. Talks to the troops and is like, thank you so much for coming to protect me, but everything is fine. And you know, because you've helped me out, I'm going to give you a reward. Everybody go home. And everybody just goes home. And like nobody dies and nobody's injured. And it is. Had they come to kill him were kind of unclear. They were either coming to kill him or coming to make him fight somewhere else. But it's kind of unclear what they actually wanted. But he just looks at all these armed men who have just literally 20 minutes ago killed another emperor and is like, yeah. And just deals with it.
- [21:06]
A
I'll be back with Emma after this short break.
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- [23:48]
F
All right.
- [23:49]
A
Okay, so you're talking me around. Otho. Positives. Very good looking, not shy of getting his out, if the statues are to be believed. Seems to have what we would now consider to be quite a strong moral compass. He doesn't want people to die. He doesn't want people to kill people needlessly to the point where he actually does himself in. He seems like quite loyal to Pompeia in the fact that it pissed him off. So you've got some loyalty there.
- [24:14]
F
Well, he loves her. And then he is like, yeah, I would like to stay married to her. And Nero's like, but he never tries to overthrow Nero. I think of him as like a prince Hal from the Henry V. Shakespeare plays, whereby he's a playboy when he is a single man and he has no responsibilities. There's all these stories about him having, like, pipes that pump perfume into his dining room. Which is considered to be disgusting. But as soon as he's given any responsibility, he, like, really rises to the occasion and becomes, like, a good guy.
- [24:42]
A
Oh, well, let's talk downsides then. Because you can't be emperor of Rome and not have one or two downsides. He hung out with Nero. That's.
- [24:50]
F
He spends a lot of time with Nero and he does have all of these stories from his youth of him being a bit of a prick. So apparently when he was a teenager, he used to run around Rome and find homeless people and beat them up for fun. Not great.
- [25:03]
A
That's not great. It's quite difficult to defend that.
- [25:07]
F
Otho, it is difficult to defend that one. And he does marry Poppaea so that Nero can have an affair with her.
- [25:14]
A
Also not great.
- [25:15]
F
Yeah. And he seems to have a nice time in Nero's court, which is honestly not a brilliant thing to say about someone. Like, Nero's court is kind of a nightmare.
- [25:22]
A
Like, any association with this man at all is enough to damage. It's really, really not great. But any association at all can damage him. Was it kind of like that with the Nero thing of just, like, you knew him, you hung out with him. That's a bad thing.
- [25:36]
F
And you were close friends with him and you did things, you know, you obviously helped him out with some of the things that he was doing. And he was doing weird shit, like they were doing deeply weird sex in there. That's not ideal. And a lot of people. The reason that people are kind of wary of him is this idea that he might, if he had lasted longer, like, tipped over into Caligula, kind of spending, like, just spunking all of the empire's money on building himself, like, fancy boats and.
- [26:05]
A
Okay, okay.
- [26:06]
F
But he didn't last long enough to find out.
- [26:08]
A
It's not sounding great for, you know, somebody to. So, okay, so quite reckless with money then?
- [26:14]
F
Possibly. Although he governs Lusitania very well and doesn't do anything bad there at all. So for 10 years, was he good.
- [26:23]
A
In battle or did he lose quite a lot of stuff.
- [26:26]
F
He's not amazing in battle, but he has good commanders.
- [26:30]
A
All right, so quite a mixed bag here.
- [26:33]
F
Yeah.
- [26:33]
A
On to our third choice. It's none other than Marcus Aurelius.
- [26:38]
F
Yes. So Marcus Aurelius, when that thing was going round about, like, the Roman Empire and men always think about the Roman Empire, I would say he was like the second person that came up in the tiktoks where you said, really? Who do you think about, like, when you're talking About. Because his meditations are so popular with a certain type of man.
- [27:01]
A
Oh, right. Okay. Tell us who Marcus Aurelius is, and then you can tell us what his meditations were. Meditating.
- [27:08]
F
So Marx. Aurelius is the last of the five good emperors in the second century. He is the last one of the emperors who were chosen because they were good guys who seemed capable of running an empire. And he oversees some really big wars in Germany and some fairly big persecutions of Christians. But he is mostly remembered now because he wrote. They're actually his private diaries, but they were published in the Middle Ages and are now sold as, like, a foundational text of Stoicism. They're basically like affirmations that he writes to himself.
- [27:45]
A
Like, that's a flex, isn't it? Like, if your private diary that was never supposed to be published actually became the foundation for a philosophical movement. If they found my private diaries, it's just the ramblings of a lunatic. It's just, I ate too much ice cream. I'm angry at my neighbors. I wanted do this. I want more chocolate. It's nothing sensible in there.
- [28:05]
F
Well, here's ones like, when I wake up in the morning, I will not be bothered anymore by people who annoy me. I will not be annoyed by people asking me questions. I will stop worrying about the things I cannot change, and I will only worry about me. And they read like, there's a really great. Danny Lavery has a version of them where they're basically written like New Year's resolutions. Like, this year, I'm not going to let the haters get me down just because they're jealous of me. Oh.
- [28:33]
A
So, yeah, it is like, affirmations. Okay.
- [28:35]
F
Yeah, hang on.
- [28:36]
A
We have a picture of him. Thank you very much, producer Stu.
- [28:39]
F
He's got a good beard.
- [28:40]
A
Who are we dealing with here? Oh, that is a good beard. Yes, he has. I don't know how accurate these statues ever were, but he certainly has quite a thoughtful, wistful look on his face there.
- [28:50]
F
Yes, and that is very much his vibe. Like, he basically got really into philosophy as a teenager. Like, into Stoic philosophy, specifically.
- [28:58]
A
Hit me with it. What is Stoic philosophy?
- [29:01]
F
The worst philosophy, as far as I'm concerned. Stoic philosophy basically argues that rationality is the peak of morality, that a man should aim to be rational at all times, a rational thought, and therefore should use rationality to control one's emotions and should separate oneself from the things that one can't control and not be emotionally affected by it. You should say that. Is happening over there, and I am centred and pure. And it has a lot of ideas about freedom as well, whereby freedom is not being in the control of anyone or anything. And that is the ideal form for a man. So you should be able to tamp down all of your wants and desires and every decision you make should be made on a rational, logical level. You can see why it's very popular with a certain type of man.
- [29:59]
A
It's this idea that emotions are girly and men are logical and sensible because we don't count anger as an emotion.
- [30:07]
F
Yeah.
- [30:09]
A
Did he apply this successfully in his own life, Marcus Aurelius? Did he manage to be chill and calm and unemotional throughout his entire life?
- [30:16]
F
No. I'll tell you my favorite thing about him, and one of my favorite things to tell men who really like him about is the letters that he wrote to another teacher of his in which he repeatedly talks about how in love with him he is, and is like, dear Fronto, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you. And Fronto is like, like, dear Marcus, thank you so much for your lesson. Me and my wife have been having a lovely hunt. I'm not even really exaggerating. They literally are like, dear Fronto, if anyone asks me who I love, I will say, you, you are the love of my life. Nothing you can say will ever make me love you less. And then Fronto's replies literally are like, I hope you're resting.
- [30:54]
A
Thanks for dropping by.
- [30:55]
F
Yeah. This is kind of before he's the Emperor, but when he's still the heir to the emperor, so he can't say, like, like, back off. But he still. He is very much like a normal human being, so he has a lot of big feelings.
- [31:08]
A
Well, I mean, there's an argument to be made that if you need to fill your diary every single day with, I will not lose my shit today, that you might be losing your shit on a regular basis.
- [31:16]
F
And that's what the Meditations are. They are basically like, it would be a lot better if I wasn't irritated by all the people that irritate me.
- [31:22]
A
I do identify with that quite strongly, though. Like, I can get on board with someone writing that. That in their diary. I'm gonna really try not to lose my shit with people today.
- [31:31]
F
And he goes through these phases of being very, like, performative, I suppose, with his. Like, he sleeps on the floor for a while and his mum has to persuade him to stop being a bit of a dick. About it. And it's like you were the heir to the emperor. Could you get in a bed?
- [31:44]
A
Why was he doing that?
- [31:46]
F
Because a philosopher was supposed to be frugal and like, having too many things meant that you were beholden to too many things and therefore you were not free. He didn't stop having any things. He was just choosing to sleep in his bed for a while.
- [32:00]
A
Was he gay, do you think? I know, I know. Don't write us letters. We can't speculate about these things. But we can, we can, we can actually, because it's good fun.
- [32:08]
F
Well, he has loads of children with his wife.
- [32:11]
A
Bisexual king, perhaps, I think.
- [32:13]
F
A bisexual king. He seems to like his wife. All of the kind of writers generally like him because he murders almost nobody except Germans. He murders loads of Germans. That's not like you can go to Rome and you can see Marcus Aurelius column, which is just in the middle of a random square. And what that is is just pictures of Marcus Aurelius murdering germans for about 30 foot.
- [32:38]
A
See, that's not very chill, Marcus Aurelius.
- [32:41]
F
It's extremely unchill. But I'm sure he did it rationally.
- [32:43]
A
Yes, for rational and sensible reasons.
- [32:45]
F
Yeah. Empire building reasons.
- [32:47]
A
Was he a good emperor?
- [32:50]
F
He's a good emperor if you're a senator, yes. Like depending on what you think a good emperor is. He's not a very fun emperor.
- [32:57]
A
Well, the Stoics were just very sensible, weren't they? That was their gig.
- [33:01]
F
I have a feeling that his idea of a good time was to invite people over to talk about Stoic philosophy and the grammar.
- [33:09]
A
I've met so many of those when I was a student hanging out in halls. Some twat with a guitar who's gonna invite everyone over to start talking about Nietzsche or something.
- [33:19]
F
Yeah, he's read a lot. He's read his Epictetus, he's read his Seneca. He's got a lot of philosopher friends and he just really would like to talk to you about rationality and providence.
- [33:29]
A
Pluses then. Pluses. He's very thoughtful, quite obviously. He must be quite clever to be coming up with this stuff.
- [33:36]
F
He's dedicated to his one thing that he's really into and he probably won't kill you.
- [33:42]
A
That is a plus in this particular period. Loved his wife, would you say?
- [33:47]
F
Yeah, seems to have got on with her fine. He doesn't seem to have had a huge amount of like, interest in her. But then she stays where a woman is supposed to be, so that's fine. Downsides? He does Fuck up the good thing that the Romans had going on for that century. Because he does make his son emperor. And that's how we get Commodus, who is a nightmare man.
- [34:06]
A
Right, okay.
- [34:07]
F
Which is very unrational. If he had been properly rational, then he would have said, you know what? Like the past five emperors we've had, they were chosen in young adulthood or adulthood because they had demonstrated that they had the qualities required to be a good emperor. And when previously we have allowed people who were just born into the monarchy to be emperor, they went terribly wrong. So maybe I should pick somebody who had demonstrated that they have the qualities, and instead he was like, my horrible son.
- [34:39]
A
Yeah.
- [34:40]
F
He's demonstrated nothing but poor judgment for the past 20 years of his life. So I've decided that's the guy.
- [34:45]
A
That's the one. I'm gonna leave all of this vast power to this guy.
- [34:49]
F
So his forward planning was not brilliant, but it's introspection. Tip top.
- [34:54]
A
Introspection, willing to work on himself. And he does seem to have got his curly hair routine down, if the statues are anything to be believed.
- [35:02]
F
And a thoughtful little face.
- [35:06]
A
I'll be back with Emma after this short break.
- [35:21]
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- [36:30]
A
All right, so that was Marcus Aurelius. So I think that it is time that I'm gonna force you to choose here. So we have got Cara Keller. Otho, Marcus Aurelius. Shag, marry, kill and justify your choice.
- [36:48]
F
I mean, they're tough ones. I'm gonna shag Caracalla because I think it would be worth it to die.
- [36:53]
A
Even though he'd kill me if he.
- [36:54]
F
Had shagged him once. He would definitely kill me. But he's so hot.
- [36:57]
A
Okay. Yep. Okay. He's the good looking guy.
- [36:59]
F
The other option is Otho, who you know would probably have some weird stuff to show you. But wouldn't he like, he would have some things you'd never even heard of.
- [37:10]
A
Yeah. So we're gonna shag Caracalla despite the threat to life.
- [37:14]
F
And I think it would be worth it. Yeah.
- [37:16]
A
All right. Okay. Yeah, I can respect that choice. All right.
- [37:19]
F
And he's the only one that when I see him in a museum, I'm always like, my boy. My handsome, handsome boy. He's my handsome, handsome boy. I can't defend anything else about him.
- [37:30]
A
But you don't have to. You're just having a throw down for a night and then he's going to kill you afterwards, so. Exactly. You don't need to defend yourself.
- [37:36]
F
I'll go out on a high. Yeah. Otho, I think I would marry.
- [37:39]
A
Oh, I wasn't what I thought you were going to say there.
- [37:42]
F
Go on one. I don't think he'd ever get bored in bed.
- [37:45]
A
No. No.
- [37:46]
F
God knows what he learned in that court. But he stayed there for a long time.
- [37:49]
A
Tricks up his toga, that lad.
- [37:50]
F
Exactly. And I think he has got a self sacrificing heir to him that I appreciate. And he's very rich and he likes giving presents and I like all those things.
- [38:01]
A
Nice. And he's only going to last three months and then he can be a wealthy widow.
- [38:05]
F
Exactly. And you know, they say that he governed Lusitania like perfectly and was a great accountant. And I really hate doing my taxes, so I reckon he can do that.
- [38:14]
A
Yes. Okay. Yes, I respect this choice. Well, that by default then means that Marcus Aurelius is getting bunked on the edge.
- [38:20]
F
Unfortunately. I would rather die than hang out with Marcus Aurelius. Lest he started talking to me about stoicism or writing me letters about grammar.
- [38:28]
A
That he's dull.
- [38:29]
F
He looks so boring. He looks like he would start crying at any given moment and then feel bad about it and then cry more. I feel like he anytime poetic type. Yeah, the worst.
- [38:43]
A
Does this mean that nice guys finish last though? Because he's not as flash as the others.
- [38:48]
F
I mean, a bit. Yeah, probably. I mean he's pretty flash. Like he's just a bit.
- [38:52]
A
He's just dull. He's Just gonna ramble on about stoicism and it's just gonna be like hanging out with a men's right podcaster.
- [38:58]
F
Yeah, basically, like, he's gonna start talking to me about emotional control and God, fuck him.
- [39:05]
A
No, no, absolutely. Yeah. Out.
- [39:07]
F
And he doesn't look like he was great in bed. He doesn't look like he was great to hang out with. He's not gonna go to any parties. The books he reads for.
- [39:16]
A
I don't want to sleep on the floor either.
- [39:18]
F
I don't want to sleep on the floor. He's not ever going to go to a horror film with me. He's going to tell me that he thinks it's morally impure or base or something to.
- [39:27]
A
No.
- [39:28]
F
I have no patience for stoicism at all. I just consider it to be irritating in every possible way.
- [39:34]
A
I think this sounds like a very rational decision. So I actually think that Marcus Aurelius would respect this choice.
- [39:40]
F
I think he would, I think if I could talk him into it and then explain to him that it was outside of his control and therefore he shouldn't be bothered by it. Only worry about the things you can control.
- [39:48]
A
You can't be upset because that's an irrational emotion. So detach yourself from it. And now we're gonna put you in a bag and throw you off this cliff.
- [39:55]
F
Yeah, I'm just gonna pop you in a guillotine. It's fine.
- [39:58]
A
Done. Emma, thank you so much for playing Shag, Marry, Kill. I think that you've made some strong choices here.
- [40:07]
F
Thank you. I think they're idiosyncratic and only partially defensible, but I'm fine with that.
- [40:13]
A
If people wanna know more about you and your work, where can they find you? You might get letters after this one.
- [40:18]
F
Oh, I might? People are going to write to me about stoicism, Please. If you want to, I suppose you can go to emmasothen.com or you can find me at historyssexy, where I do my own podcast.
- [40:29]
A
Fabulous. Thank you so much for joining us. You've been marvelous.
- [40:33]
F
Thank you so much.
- [40:39]
A
Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to Emma for joining me. And if you'd like us to explore a subject, or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us@betwixtistoryhit.com Coming up, we have got more in our little mini series on history's worst ever fuckboys coming your way. And we'll be starting with Charles ii. So starting strong. This podcast was edited by Tim Arstel and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets History of Sex Scandal in Society A podcast by History hit.
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