Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society

Episode: Shag, Marry, Kill: Roman Emperor Edition

Host: Kate Lister
Guest: Dr. Emma Southon (historian and author)
Date: August 29, 2025

Episode Overview

In this lively and irreverent episode, sex historian Kate Lister invites Roman historian Emma Southon to play the classic party game "Shag, Marry, Kill" — but with a twist: their subjects are three notorious Roman emperors. With expert wit, candor, and historical insight, the pair dissect the personalities, scandals, and mythologies surrounding Caracalla, Otho, and Marcus Aurelius. The conversation blends humor, modern sensibilities, and honest takes on ancient Roman gender dynamics, offering an affectionate debunking of both reality TV shaming and imperial reputations.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing the Game and Its Savage Origins

• Context: Kate frames "Shag, Marry, Kill" as a cheeky way to subvert the power of legendary emperors, poking fun at historic masculinity by subjecting them to superficial judgment (03:00–04:30).
• Millennial TV Parallel: They compare the game to "Snog, Marry, Avoid," a TV show obsessed with so-called "natural beauty" and public shaming of women, thereby highlighting the hypocrisy of similar judgment in both ancient and modern settings.

"It's sounding Roman already. That sounds quite Roman."
— Kate Lister (06:16)

2. Emma’s Criteria for Judging Emperors

• Emma’s Approach: She admits the exercise is mostly based on personality — with some emperors only making the cut for their looks (08:21–08:52).
• Roman Judginess: Both hosts underline that while Romans were extremely judgmental of women, now it's time to return the favor to male emperors (07:53–08:09).

3. The Candidates: A Deep Dive

a. Caracalla (09:02–12:46)

• Background: Son of Septimius Severus and Julia Domna, famous for his scowling, smouldering statues and military prowess.
• Attractiveness: Emma confesses Caracalla is "hot as hell" — purely her own take based on his statues.

  "He's a smoulderer. Right." – Kate (10:18) "He's the hottest of the emperors." – Emma (12:08)

• Personality Flaws: Notorious for fratricide, possible spousal murder, and general unpleasantness toward women.

  "If you were to try and shag him, he would probably have you killed." – Emma (12:29)

• Speculation: Emma humorously suggests Caracalla may have been gay, based on his intense relationships with men and devotion to his mother.
• Summary: Stunning looks, dangerous company for women, possible closet case, famous for wearing a British cloak (“the caracalla”), militaristic and brooding.

b. Otho (15:30–24:41)

• Background: Emperor for only three months, mainly remembered for his dramatic association with Nero.
• Reputation: He was a “party boy” who became surprisingly selfless when given responsibility. Otho married Poppaea for Nero, then fell in love with her himself.
• Personality: Noted for charm, generosity, and adeptness at making friends and defusing dangerous situations, notably a near-mutiny (20:02–21:05).
• Downfall: Gave up the throne to spare Rome civil war casualties and took his own life out of self-sacrifice.

  "I don't want to be emperor enough to waste any more lives on this... then he killed himself." – Emma (19:26)

• Negatives: Past association with Nero’s debauched court, youthful cruelty (beating up homeless people), and rumors of extravagance and recklessness.
• Positives: Capable governor in Lusitania, loyal, charismatic, and perhaps intriguing in the bedroom.

  "He has got a self-sacrificing air to him that I appreciate. And he's very rich and likes giving presents; I like all those things." – Emma (38:01)

c. Marcus Aurelius (26:33–34:45)

• Background: The famous Stoic philosopher-emperor, author of "Meditations", the last of the "Five Good Emperors."
• Personality: Known for introspection and thoughtful philosophy. Privately affirmed personal resolutions against irritation and emotional outburst.

  "His private diary that was never supposed to be published actually became the foundation for a philosophical movement..." – Kate (27:45) "If you need to fill your diary every single day with 'I will not lose my shit today,' you might be losing your shit on a regular basis." – Kate (31:07)

• Flaws: Not much fun, potentially boring, and made the disastrous decision to pass the throne to his unstable son, Commodus.
• Sexuality & Relationships: Expressed passionate love for his teacher Fronto in letters; had many children with his wife.

  "He looks like he would start crying at any given moment and then feel bad about it and then cry more." – Emma (38:29)

• Legacy: Admired by senators, not particularly bloodthirsty except against Germans (“murdered loads of Germans”), but uninspiring socially.

4. Verdict: Shag, Marry, Kill

(36:48–39:57)

Emma Southon’s Choices

• Shag: Caracalla

  "I'm gonna shag Caracalla because I think it would be worth it to die. He would definitely kill me. But he's so hot." – Emma (36:53)

• Marry: Otho

  "I think I would marry Otho. Go on, then. I don't think he'd ever get bored in bed...he stayed there for a long time. And he has got a self-sacrificing air to him that I appreciate." – Emma (37:41, 38:01)

• Kill: Marcus Aurelius

  "Unfortunately. I would rather die than hang out with Marcus Aurelius, lest he started talking to me about stoicism or writing me letters about grammar." – Emma (38:19)

Justifications

• Caracalla's looks override his deadly tendencies ("worth it to die").
• Otho is adventurous, generous, loyal, and a competent partner ("tricks up his toga").
• Marcus Aurelius is rejected for being overly introspective, “dull,” and likely to bore in marriage (“just gonna ramble on about stoicism...like hanging out with a men's rights podcaster”).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On ancient and modern judgment:
  "They were very judgmental. But we're gonna judge men, so..." – Emma (08:06)
• On Caracalla:
  "He's the only one that when I see him in a museum, I'm always like, my boy. My handsome, handsome boy." – Emma (37:18)
• On Marcus Aurelius:
  "He's just going to ramble on about stoicism and it's just gonna be like hanging out with a men's right podcaster." – Kate (38:51)
• On Otho’s end:
  "He just says, 'I don't want this enough. I don't want any more people dying for me.' And he killed himself." – Emma (19:26)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:44] – Game setup and millennial TV connection
• [09:10] – Introduction of Caracalla
• [15:30] – Introduction of Otho
• [26:33] – Introduction of Marcus Aurelius
• [36:48] – Emma must decide: Shag, Marry, Kill
• [39:05] – Final (brutal but rational) verdict on Marcus Aurelius

Episode Tone & Language

• Style: Irreverent, witty, historically detailed but conversational
• Attitude: Modern, playful, and subversive of traditional male-centric histories
• Language: Adult, candid, sometimes cheeky or darkly comic

Conclusion

Kate and Emma’s “Shag, Marry, Kill: Roman Emperor Edition” takes history’s most intimidating men and gives them the reality TV treatment, exposing the contradictions of power, masculinity, and reputation. The episode is equal parts scholarly and snarky, challenging both modern and ancient standards of judgment, and leaving listeners with the realization that "nice guys" (and Stoics) don’t always come out on top — at least not when there are hot murderers and self-sacrificing playboys in the mix.

Find more from Dr. Emma Southon at emmasouthon.com or her podcast "History is Sexy." For future episodes, Kate promises more tales from history’s “worst ever fuckboys,” starting with Charles II.