The Boleyn Who Betrayed Henry VIII

Summary

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Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society

Host: Kate Lister
Guest: Philippa Gregory
Episode: The Boleyn Who Betrayed Henry VIII
Date: October 10, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of "Betwixt the Sheets" dives into the life and legacy of Jane Boleyn, Lady Rochford—sister-in-law to Anne Boleyn and a central, if often overlooked, figure in the tumultuous Tudor court. With acclaimed novelist and historian Philippa Gregory, host Kate Lister explores why Victorian and modern interpretations have cast Jane as either "mad" or "bad," and asks if there’s more to her story. The conversation weaves together scandal, survival, politics, and the dangers of living—and trying to thrive—in the shadow of Henry VIII.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jane Boleyn: The Woman Behind the Stereotypes

• Victorian and Modern Stereotyping
  • Jane is remembered as "the infamous Lady Rochford," a reputation set in Victorian times and perpetuated in modern interpretations (05:56).
  • Philippa Gregory: “She’s literally been, you know, shoehorned into two really, really typical stereotypes about women, bad or mad. And I think that she’s much more nuanced, much more complicated, much more interesting than that. And that she’s an agent of her own life.” (06:24)
• Agency vs. Circumstance
  • Gregory challenges the idea that Jane was merely a victim or a villain, suggesting she was navigating treacherous political waters with intelligence and agency.

2. Early Life and Meteoric Rise

• Background
  • Daughter of Lord Morley, a Renaissance scholar uninterested in court politics; Jane is sent to be a maid in waiting to Catherine of Aragon (08:16).
  • Marriage to George Boleyn, Anne’s brother, is arranged but unremarkable—until Anne marries Henry VIII, catapulting Jane into the royal family.
• Sudden Ascendancy
  • Jane becomes top lady in waiting to consecutive queens: Jane Seymour, Anne of Cleves, and Catherine Howard. This rise is baffling given her close relation to the disgraced Boleyns (11:32-12:17).

3. Jane as Possible Spy for Cromwell

• Unlikely Promotion After Scandal
  • Unlike other Boleyns, Jane is not disgraced after Anne and George’s executions; instead, she is promoted (12:04-12:16).
• Cromwell’s Spy Network Theory
  • Gregory posits that the only possible explanation for Jane’s survival and favor is that Thomas Cromwell used her as a spy in the Queen’s chambers—a new angle on Jane’s role at court (12:38-14:30).
  • Philippa Gregory: “He’s in the middle of setting up a huge spy administration network...I think Jane is one of these.” (13:32)

4. Jane’s Role in Court Scandals

• The Anne Boleyn Affair
  • Victorian historians blame Jane for testifying against her husband and Anne; Gregory disputes there’s contemporary evidence for this (14:56-17:05).
• Anne of Cleves’ Divorce
  • Jane provides the key statement enabling Henry’s annulment from Anne of Cleves. Gregory suggests she did so on Cromwell’s behalf, possibly benefiting both her and Anne (17:08-17:40).

5. The Katherine Howard Disaster

• No Protector After Cromwell’s Fall
  • After Cromwell’s execution, Jane loses crucial support and becomes the de facto advisor to Catherine Howard—a role fraught with risk (18:07-20:17).
• Enabling an Illicit Affair
  • Jane facilitates Queen Catherine’s secret liaisons with Thomas Culpepper, possibly thinking she could benefit if the king died and Catherine became regent (20:17, 25:32).
• The Human Side of Catherine Howard
  • Kate Lister: “I feel endlessly sorry for Katherine Howard...you just want to sit down and go, sweetheart, come on. Now, I know he’s pretty, but you can’t do this.” (23:16)

6. How It All Fell Apart

• Discovery and Betrayal
  • Catherine’s teenage affairs are exposed, leading to blackmail and investigation. Jane is eventually implicated (29:31-31:53).
• Harsh Punishments and Legal Tyranny
  • Despite legal precedent, Henry executes both Catherine and Jane via an act of attainder, bypassing trial—redefining the monarchy as a tyranny where his word is law (35:21).
  • Philippa Gregory: “Henry doesn’t have to put her on trial because Cromwell has already recreated this legal fiction...which just means the King can say, I want this person dead, signed Henry, and that’s it.” (35:22)

7. Jane’s Final Play—Feigning Madness

• Attempt to Avoid Execution
  • Jane feigns insanity to invoke Tudor law, which forbade executing the insane. For a brief period, it seems to work, as she is cared for outside the Tower (36:44-37:43).
  • Philippa Gregory: “I believe she pretends to be mad...If she can be convincing in it...she would be going, I am going to get away with this. Clever, clever, clever woman.” (37:44)
• Henry Changes the Law
  • Henry changes the law to allow execution of the insane, ensuring Jane’s death (37:45-38:08).
  • Kate Lister: “Absolute shit. Changes the entire law in order to...kill her just to get her.” (37:57)

8. On the Scaffold: The End of Jane and Catherine

• Execution Details
  • Catherine Howard is executed first, delivering a brief apology; Jane follows, kneeling in the blood-stained straw (42:10-43:23).
  • Kate Lister: “I have huge respect for that because if that had been me, I’d have got up there and just said, he was an absolute dick. I hated him. He was terrible in bed. I’ll see you all. That would have been me on the way out.” (42:30)
• Comparisons to Other Victims of Henry’s Tyranny
  • Gregory recounts the horrifying execution of Margaret Pole, drawing parallels to Henry’s increasing brutality and lack of justice (43:48-45:21).

9. Rethinking Jane Boleyn’s Legacy

• Legacy and Historical Lessons
  • Gregory hopes to redefine Jane—as a woman of agency striving to survive, rather than a mad or bad stereotype (45:55).
  • Philippa Gregory: “Maybe she was playing the card she had in a way that is absolutely admirable. Maybe she was neither a bad person as the Victorians would have, or a mad person...Maybe her legacy to us is to say, when you see tyranny coming, stand against it, because sooner or later it will come against you or the things you love.” (46:54)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “She’s literally been shoehorned into two really, really typical stereotypes about women: bad or mad.”
  — Philippa Gregory (06:24)
• “Who’s done that? Where’s that come from? And I think the only person who could have done it would have been Henry VIII. And we know Henry VIII is not going to do that without some kind of extraordinary benefit.”
  — Philippa Gregory (12:17)
• “She says that the Queen Anne of Cleves says...the King lies beside her and sleeps all night. And in the morning he kisses her and says, good day, sweetheart. And she says, good day, my Lord.”
  — Philippa Gregory (17:10)
• “If she had pulled it off, if Katherine Howard had got pregnant by Thomas Culpepper ... she’s then the top woman of England forever.”
  — Philippa Gregory (26:46)
• “It’s not law, it’s vindictive rage...It’s narcissistic rage. I think you have to understand it in the context of a man whose vanity cannot tolerate the fact that somebody might prefer a man young enough to be a son.”
  — Philippa Gregory (34:16-35:21)
• “Henry doesn’t have to put her on trial ... the King can say, I want this person dead, signed Henry, and that’s it.”
  — Philippa Gregory (35:22)
• “I believe she pretends to be mad ... and Henry VIII changes the law, which now says you can execute a mad person.”
  — Philippa Gregory (37:44-37:53)
• “Maybe her legacy to us is to say, when you see tyranny coming, stand against it, because sooner or later it will come against you or the things you love.”
  — Philippa Gregory (46:54)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:34] — Introduction to Jane Boleyn’s story and reputation
• [08:16] — Jane’s early life and rise at court
• [12:17] — Theory: Jane as a spy for Cromwell
• [14:56] — Her role in Anne Boleyn’s downfall and the Anne of Cleves divorce
• [18:07] — Cromwell’s fall and Jane’s dangerous position with Catherine Howard
• [23:16] — The Katherine Howard–Thomas Culpepper affair, Jane as enabler
• [29:31] — The unravelling: how Jane and Catherine get caught
• [35:21] — Henry’s use of tyranny, execution by attainder
• [36:44] — Jane’s attempt to escape execution through feigned madness
• [42:10] — The executions of Catherine Howard and Jane Boleyn
• [45:55] — Gregory on rethinking Jane’s legacy

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Final Thoughts

An insightful, engaging episode that paints Jane Boleyn not simply as a villain or victim, but as a sharp, adaptive, and ultimately tragic figure at the heart of Henry VIII’s tyrannical court—a warning from history about the dangers of unchecked power and easy historical stereotypes.

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Transcript

[Kate Lister]

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[Kate Lister]

Hello my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. This is Betwixt the Sheets and you are you. And boy am I glad that you are here with me listening to Betwixt the Sheets. Otherwise, what is this really? But before we can keep going, I do have to let you know, probably for the umpteenth billionth time. But let's face it, if I didn't do it now, you'd think that it was weird. I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast book about other adults, about adult things in an adulty way, covering a range of subjects. And you should be an adult too. I'm an adult as well. Oh thank God Right, let's get on with it. Jane Boleyn is playing a dangerous game. Yes, Jane, not Anne. It's 1541, and on the other side of this heavy oak door, inside the Queen's royal bedchamber, no less. Catherine Howard. Yeah, that one is holding secret meetings with a man that she loves. And it's not Henry the 8th.

[Philippa Gregory]

8Th?

[Kate Lister]

I have some sympathy with her. I wouldn't love him either. She's in there with Thomas Culpepper. Oh, Catherine, Catherine, Catherine, Catherine. I know that you're married to a fat, miserable git, but you need to be smarter than this. And to make matters worse, Jane Boleyn is keeping guard. Jane, what are you playing at? This woman, sister in law to Anne Boleyn, has been on the sidelines of scandal at the Tudor court for years. But now she is thrust into the spotlight. And what will Henry do when he finds out? I think we all know the answer to that one. And really, Jane should have known as well. But let's hear more about this fascinating woman's life and her terrible decision making process.

[Philippa Gregory]

What are you, a funny man? Oh, money. Of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning it up and pushing the button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness.

[Kate Lister]

What beautiful diamond. Goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the the history of Sex scandal in Society with me, Kate Lister. Jane Boleyn played such a unique and important part in the court of Henry viii. She was married to George Boleyn. Georgie. So she was sister in law to Anne. And we all know their fate, don't we? Off with their heads. And maybe you know a little bit about Jane as well. But what was her role in Henry's court? How did she fit back in once her husband and her sister in law were murdered? And was she really a spy for Cromwell? Well, to find out more about this woman, I am joined by the one and the only, the utterly magnificent, Philippa Gregory, no less. Historian and author of previous works like the Other Boleyn Girl and normal women. 900 years of women Making History. Philippa previously came on the podcast to talk about the generation of women who thrived after the Black Death.

[Philippa Gregory]

So.

[Kate Lister]

So be sure to scroll back to listen to that one if you haven't heard it. But without further ado, let's meet Jane. And let's meet Philippa. Well, hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's Only Philippa Gregory, how are you doing?

[Philippa Gregory]

Very, very pleased to be back with you. Kitty. Nice to see you.

[Kate Lister]

It's so nice to see you. And obviously, I'm doubly excited. Cause not only do I get to talk to you again, but your latest book is on such a fascinating character, and I've been desperate for somebody to look in more detail at this woman, Jane Boleyn, the infamous Lady Rochford. What was it that made you want to tell her story?

[Philippa Gregory]

Well, partly because she is known as the infamous Lady Rochford. And she's one of the women who really exemplify how we like to bring stereotypes from our own time to characters of the past. So at the time, her time, the chroniclers hardly mentioned her. She was clearly executed for being an accessory to the adultery of the Queen of England, Catherine Howard. And she was clearly wife to George Boleyn, who was himself executed for adultery with the Queen of England, his sister, Anne Boleyn. But at the time, it's not that she flies under the radar. She's acknowledged, everybody knows she's there. But in a sense, there's so much going on that people don't really go into her life very much. They're not that interested in her. Jump forward hundreds of years to the Victorian historians, and they identify her with Victorian precision as a bad woman. And so she's a bad woman to the Victorians. And that's her reputation, which goes right the way up to the modern day, when we are much more inclined to a psychological explanation of female behavior. And we say she's crazy. She's literally been, you know, shoehorned into two really, really typical stereotypes about women, bad or mad. And I think that she's much more nuanced, much more complicated, much more interesting than that. And that she's an agent of her own life. And that's why the time is right now that, you know, while we're so much more interested in women's history, while we now believe that women can indeed run their own lives and can be trusted to do so, that we start looking, not her, but so many other historical women and say, what's really going on here? It can't be the cliche that we've been told.

[Kate Lister]

The first time I ever heard of her was when I was reading about the execution of Catherine Howard. And it was just, as you say, it was just a passing note that Lady Rochford was executed alongside. And I remember at the time thinking, what? Pardon? Go back. Who's this person? Like, how did this person manage to get executed alongside a queen. And then you find out that she was married to Anne Boleyn's brother, this person who was right there in the centre of this Tudor mess. Let's start right at the beginning. Where did she even come from? Where did Jane emerge from?

[Philippa Gregory]

Well, she has a pretty conventional childhood. She's the daughter of Lord Morley, who's a Tudor scholar, who's known to the Tudor court, but doesn't like to take part in the power broking and the power struggles of the Tudor court. He's a translator of Renaissance text. He's a really, really top flight scholar and his gifts to the royal court, every new year he gives them a translation of an Italian text which is part of the Renaissance library. So he's part of this sort of humanist, European, highly scholarly world. And he sends his daughter Jane, his oldest girl, to the court of Catherine of Aragon to become a maid in waiting. And she works there. And then he arranges a moderately good marriage for her to the oldest son of the Boleyn family, who are diplomats and courtiers and working at the Tudor court. So they're on the rise. They're not particularly interesting, but they're doing pretty good. You know, their lands are neighboring, so they're worth putting the young people together. And she has, as far as we know, an unremarkable marriage to him. It's not for love, but certainly they were of the same age, they're both reasonably attractive, they knew they would be married to somebody not for love, so there's no problem there. And then, of course, the most extraordinary thing happens that nobody could have predicted, which is that Anne Boleyn pulls off this social bombshell of marrying the King of England and all of a sudden our Jane is married into the royal family and she is sister in law to the King of England, to the Queen of England and the King of England. So George Boleyn immediately becomes top courtier. He becomes the diplomat of choice, descent of Fr though he's very young and very inexperienced and he is part of the circle of handsome young men that circulate the handsome young Prince Henry viii. And Jane becomes top lady in waiting to her sister in law. I mean, you can't compare it to anything. You can't imagine that the sort of leap into wealth and power and status that she experiences just because her sister in law makes it to the very, very top. And then of course, there is an equally catastrophic fall in the reverse direction when Anne and George are accused of adultery and incest and therefore treason. Plotting the King's death and they are beheaded. And you would expect Jane to fall like a stone. So all the Boleyns disappear from court. They retire. Neither of them, neither mother nor father do anything effectual at court anymore. They just go back to their country estates. So I would. Anyone of sense would. But amazingly, Jane Boleyn is promoted. She becomes lady in waiting, chief lady in waiting to the next queen, Jane Seymour. She is at her bed when Jane dies in childbirth. She is at christening behind, you know, carrying the baby at the christening. She couldn't be in a more important position. And then when Jane Seymour dies, she's chief lady in waiting to Anne of Cleves. And then when Anne of Cleves is divorced, she's chief lady in waiting to Catherine Howard.

[Kate Lister]

She's there the whole time.

[Philippa Gregory]

She's there the whole time. And one of the big questions for me writing this novel was, how do you, Jane, pull that off? Because that's not ordinary. There's no route that could explain coming back from that sort of early disgrace.

[Kate Lister]

No, when you put it like that, surely the court would shun you, and your best bet would be to go, do you know what? I'm just gonna retire quietly and tend a garden and keep my head down.

[Philippa Gregory]

But instead of that, there's actually an act of Parliament that improves her dowry. So she gets a fortune that she wouldn't have expected, and she gets promoted to be laid in waiting to all the subsequent queens.

[Kate Lister]

Something is afoot.

[Philippa Gregory]

Yeah, who's done that? Where's that come from? And I think the only person who could have done it would have been Henry viii. And we know Henry VIII is not going to do that without some kind of extraordinary benefit. There's never any suggestion that she's his lover. And that's the only reason Henry would give a woman.

[Kate Lister]

Yes.

[Philippa Gregory]

Yeah. So who else could do it? The only other person who could do it, technically do it, would be Thomas Cromwell, because he runs the administration. He runs a show. He can tell Parliament to pass a law. He can tell the Queen. This is to be your lady in waiting. He's top, top, top admin guy. So I go, why would Thomas Cromwell interest himself in this woman? And I am 90% certain that it is because he is setting up. He's in the middle of setting up a huge spy administration network in which all of the towns of England have somebody who reports to him. He's usually made them sheriff or mayor or promoted them as a justice of peace. Locally, most of the cities of Europe are reporting to him as part of a huge, not just political but also commercial diplomatic network. So he's running a big, big spy network. Before we are really aware of spy networks very much. He's trained. He spent a long time in Italy, where the Republic of Venice perfected spying as a tool of government. So he's very, very well informed in how this. Oh, hello. We have the names of three women who are spies in the Queen's chambers and they are Cromwell spies. He's recruited them and they work for him. And so I go, I think Jane is one of these. And we don't have any. I've got no documentary evidence for it, but all I have is in a sense, this missing patron who pulls her out of disgrace and puts her into the top office in the land. Someone with extraordinary amount of power and influence has done that. The only person I think, who could do it is Thomas Cromwell. And you can see why he would benefit from it.

[Kate Lister]

Just to go back to what happened with Anne Boleyn, it is nuts that you get married to some local guy who's on the make and then all of a sudden, oh, my God, now you're having dinner with the Queen. But in that scandal, was Jane implicated at all because she was married to George, who was accused of having sex with Anne? How was she factored into this? Did she just put up hands up and go, I don't know anything about anything?

[Philippa Gregory]

That's a really key question. And it's on that that her reputation becomes really destroyed. That at the time we know that there were two women who gave evidence against George and Anne and they probably reported inappropriate intimacy. So him going into her bedroom and chatting to her. You know, in my earlier novel, the Other Berlinga, I have him lounging about on her bed and knowing too much about her. I mean, in this novel they are very, very close, as they would be as people who are trying to survive in a very dangerous environment. So it's the Victorian historians who decide that one of the women who gave evidence against George was. Was his wife. George never says that. And we have a letter, the only letter we have which is reported, not. We don't have the original. She says she's going to speak to the King for George, for her husband, and we don't know if she even does. So I think at the time she kept her head down like her father did, like her mother did, like her really powerful uncle did. All of the Boleyns and the Howards just go absolutely quiet on this and let so called justice, let the show trial, roll its way through and get to the execution and hope to survive it themselves. So I think that's all she's doing then. But when it comes to the divorce of Anne of Cleves, when she is under, I believe, working for Thomas Cromwell, Thomas Cromwell has to get the divorce through because Henry VIII has decided he doesn't like Anne of Cleves. That's the one that he's resisted. Fat and ugly. So Thomas Cromwell's got to deliver this divorce at speed. He's really got to. And I think that he tells Jane what she is going to say in her witness statement. And her witness statement, it is her gives it her and two other women, but she's at the top of the witnesses. She says that the Queen Anne of Cleves says to her in the morning that the King lies beside her and sleeps all night. And in the morning he kisses her and says, good day, sweetheart. And she says, good day, my Lord.

[Kate Lister]

I didn't know it was Jane that said that.

[Philippa Gregory]

Jane. It's Jane who?

[Kate Lister]

Jane.

[Philippa Gregory]

Yeah, exactly. And you know, in my novel, I suggest that actually she's doing Anne of Cleves a favor because if not that, there's going to be an accusation and she's certainly earning her pay that she's already been given from Cromwell off her enormous beautiful house and her huge estates and her great position in life. She has to deliver material which proves that the King has not consummated his marriage and that it's okay to put Anne of Cles aside.

[Kate Lister]

So she really is right in the middle of all of this. And I know that we've got to be careful looking back this far, but your point is absolutely solid. Why wasn't this woman completely disgraced and cast to the outliers of society? She was married to a guy that was accused of bonking the Queen and then the Queen was her sister in law and then. But no, she's elevated. This person is now allowed to be lady in waiting to different queens.

[Philippa Gregory]

That's bizarre. It is really extraordinary. And I think she doesn't put a foot wrong until Thomas Cromwell himself is executed by Henry on his wedding day. I mean, nice timing.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, well done, Henry.

[Philippa Gregory]

Oh, he really is rather vile by now. So he executes his great friend, great supporter, the only man who could run his kingdom on his wedding day to Catherine Howard. Which means that not only does Henry have nobody to help him and steer him and to run the kingdom and to maintain the spy network and to answer the letters and to maintain the diplomatic relationships, to run the Reformation of the Church of England, which Cromwell was doing and Henry can't do. Nobody can do it. Not only is Henry absolutely deserted, it's like the whole civil service walked out. But Jane has lost her advisor and her spymaster. So she has to run Katherine Howard's life without any advice and any support, without any protection. And of course, when Katherine Howard falls insanely and completely in love with Thomas Culpepper, which I believe she did, and we've got evidence for that in a letter that she wrote to him, Jane is powerless to stop the relationship. And I think she thinks she's going to do something very, very clever and very, very interesting, which is allow it, support it. And then she. If the King dies and everybody thinks he's going to die, then Katherine Howard is Dowager Queen of England. And if she were to have a son by Thomas Culpepper, she's got a very good chance of being on the Regent's Council. And Jane Rochford, having been her advisor and duenna and supporter and complicit in this love affair, is made for life. You know, she's got such scandal on her that she's literally in clover forever.

[Kate Lister]

That's a risky game.

[Philippa Gregory]

She's behind the throne of the Queen Dowager.

[Kate Lister]

That's risky, though.

[Philippa Gregory]

It's incredibly risky.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Philippa and Jane after this short break.

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[Philippa Gregory]

Customize and save.

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[Kate Lister]

She does seem to be making at least what I know of her. Smart decisions all the way through. Like she's in the centre of these scandals. But she's playing it well. Like when the thing with Anne kicks off, she just goes to ground as everyone does, and then kind of reappears. And then with Anne of Cleave, she's suddenly there with all this information. It does seem really odd that she'd sud Then take up. Not take up, but, you know, fall in with this. How old was Katherine Howard? She's like 18.

[Philippa Gregory]

Yeah, she's even younger. She's probably about 16 when this.

[Kate Lister]

16. And I feel endlessly sorry for Katherine Howard. I've got a real soft spot for her. But also, you just want to sit down and go, sweetheart, come on. Now, I know he's pretty, but you can't do this. What on earth is she doing encouraging this and allowing this and not reporting it.

[Philippa Gregory]

I love your imaginary drama of you saying to Catherine Howard's sweetheart, sit down. Suppose, okay, I shall be Catherine Howard in this scenario. And I say to you, I don't care. I am married to a man old enough to be my grandfather, who is disgusting and he's impotent, but he keeps trying. I mean, it is abuse. It is assault. I cannot bear it. The only way I will get through this is if I can see once a day this man I love, and I'd rather die than not see him. She actually writes a letter and she says, it makes my heart to die to think that I will not see you today.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, Catherine.

[Philippa Gregory]

It's not a passing fancy as far as she's concerned, this is the love of her life and she would rather die than not see him. And tragically, she does give her life for it.

[Kate Lister]

Do you think he loved her? I mean, we've all done that, haven't we? When we were 17. Of, like. But I love him so much.

[Philippa Gregory]

I know he's a bit older. He certainly knows the risks he's running. I think he did love her because I think he really understood much more than she did. He was a friend of Henry. I mean, he was in the court. He was not a child. I think he's late 20s or early 30s. So he knows much more the risk they're running. And I think he is probably flattered. I think he probably really, really, really fancies her. And I think he's probably in love with her. Yeah. I can't see any reason for him to take these risks if it wasn't really compelling.

[Kate Lister]

I suppose when you say it like that, I can understand a situation that might have developed with Jane of, well, what are you gonna do? Are you gonna shop her in? Because then she probably will die. You're now implicated in this the second you know about it. So maybe what she was doing was trying to, like, help them and keep it under wraps somehow.

[Philippa Gregory]

Well, the facts are that she lets him into the Queen's rooms and she stays with. I think she's trying to kind of chaperone them and keep a lid on it. So Catherine says she wants to see him and that to this scaffold. Catherine says they didn't have sex.

[Kate Lister]

Do you believe her?

[Philippa Gregory]

There's some evidence that Jane turned her chair and wasn't watching them.

[Kate Lister]

That's kind of sweet.

[Philippa Gregory]

Jane says that she fell asleep, so she doesn't know quite what went on. And somebody listening outside the door, someone else altogether, says that she hears the Queen sigh and she thinks she. The word she uses, that she dies away, which is Tudor speak for orgasm.

[Kate Lister]

See, that's a lie. Isn't it, though, Jane? That I turned my chair around and I just fell asleep. It was so uninteresting, what was going on in the room. I just thought I'd have a little nap and I don't actually know what happened at the crucial moment.

[Philippa Gregory]

Yeah, well, that. That's how you say I was there. But I. But I won't give evidence against them.

[Kate Lister]

Smart. That's like the Tudor color. Like, I just don't remember. I just. I just. I was there. I just don't. My memory's gone completely.

[Philippa Gregory]

And I used to work in journalism, we used to say, yeah, it might have happened. I don't know. I was on a day off.

[Kate Lister]

Now I'm gonna say I was in the chair and I had a nap and I just. I just don't remember what happened around.

[Philippa Gregory]

And I was having a nap. So, I mean, what a mess, though. It is a terrific mess. But at the same time, this is a time of such danger and such high stakes. If she had pulled it off, if Katherine Howard had got pregnant by Thomas Culpepper, passed it off as the king's baby, been crowned queen, and then the king had died, she's then the top woman of England forever.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, she is, actually. Yeah, she is. Do you think she'd have done this if Cromwell was still around? I know that we're speculating highly, but what would have been his advice in this situation?

[Philippa Gregory]

I think his advice in this situation would have been get hold of Catherine Howard and tell her to wait till the king is dead and get, you know, Thomas Cromwell is not the sort of man to be melted to the core by a young girl saying she's in love with somebody and she doesn't care. Thomas Cromwell would make her care. I think Thomas Cromwell would be very much, you know, in psychology speak, correcting parent. He would be correcting parent role in that particular scenario. And if he couldn't control her, if he couldn't prevent it, I think he would have prevented it. Then I think he would have said to Henry, Culpepper is the danger here. Get rid. Send away to France on a diplomatic mission. I think probably he wouldn't have told Henry. I think he was thinking it through. If I was Cromwell, I would send Culpepper somewhere really awful, like, in their view, Constantinople on a diplomatic mission for five years and then see what happens when it comes. And then if she has another fancy, send him, you know. You know, there's lots of countries of Europe that you can send these young men to and they will learn that you can flirt with the queen, but you can't. You can't have assignations.

[Kate Lister]

No, you cannot. But none of that happens because the spy master has gone and the minister.

[Philippa Gregory]

Has been killed by the. I say, you know, narcissistic, if not psychopathic king.

[Kate Lister]

And I'm inclined to agree with you.

[Philippa Gregory]

You know, that's not the first death in this story.

[Kate Lister]

I mean, what's it take to execute your mate? To, like, have a falling out, like your best bud, and just be like, oh, yeah, off with his head and I'm gonna get married on the same.

[Philippa Gregory]

Day that's that is tapped Cromwell's letter to Henry from the Tower. And the last line of it is, he says, you know, I didn't do this. I did do this. I did this because I thought it was what you wanted. I did this because it was the right thing to do. And at the end of it, he says, I cry, mercy, mercy, mercy. And Henry VIII gets that and lets the execution go ahead.

[Kate Lister]

So how do they get busted then? How does this all come undone for Jane, who must have been there watching this, like, well aware of the stakes and what could.

[Philippa Gregory]

Yeah. What Jane doesn't know is that Catherine Howard has a past with. And we don't know how consensual the past is, but certainly she's been engaged in sex play when she was a girl at her grandmother's house. And one of the other maids in waiting in the room was present actually in the bed when this was going on. So there was a lot of larking about. It's a dormitory situation and the boys came in and two women, two girls were having sex play or sex with two of the boys. And okay, literally, this previous partner turns up and starts to blackmail Catherine. And another of the friends at the time tells her brother, who is scolding her, that she's done nothing worse than the Queen of England herself. And he, as a very, very, very passionate Protestant, reports this in order to further the Reformation, which they think, oh, no. So he reports it to. And ultimately the King hears of it really early on. It goes to the Archbishop of Canterbury, and he can't keep it to himself, of course, because then he's in danger. So he tells the King they can't bear to tell him in person. They leave a note at his place in church and he reads it and Henry says, it's a lie, it's gossip. I don't believe it for a moment. And so they all investigate it and everybody goes like, okay, it happened when she was a girl. We're not even clear that she was consenting. It was before she even met the King. She didn't know she was going to be Queen of England. She shouldn't.

[Kate Lister]

Fair.

[Philippa Gregory]

I would have said, like, you know, this isn't adultery. She wasn't married to the King at the time. This is, you know, unsuitable. And it's a pity, but we can nod it through, perhaps. And they question her, and they question all of her ladies, and at times her attention to Thomas Culpepper comes out and immediately they get hold of that. That's the End. And Jane denies right the way through till they come at her and say they've named you as helping them. Then she tells them what she knows, and they try and blame.

[Kate Lister]

If Cromwell had been around, none of this, none of this would have happened. The second that blackmailing person turned up, he would have been dealt with.

[Philippa Gregory]

Exactly. Or to put it in a more feminist way, if Jane Boleyn had had the authority that her service really demanded, she could have sold it. But because women don't get official positions in admin, they just get unofficial positions and do all the work. She doesn't have the power, though. She knows exactly what should happen next.

[Kate Lister]

Would she have realized that when she was implicated, that would mean her head? Because I've always thought that that seemed incredibly harsh. It's like, all right, she was there and she, you know, she knew them at the time, and she was apparently asleep in the chair. But I still think it's very harsh to say, well, now you have to.

[Philippa Gregory]

No, she would have thought, as anybody would have thought, that Henry terribly disappointed in the wife that he. I mean, he adored her. He had this real, real desire and love and passion for her. He called her his rose. The day before it all came out, it ordered a Thanksgiving service for her to be said in every church in England. I mean, it would.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, shit.

[Philippa Gregory]

It was really.

[Kate Lister]

That's not funny.

[Philippa Gregory]

On a level. It's really embarrassing. It really is awful. What you would have expected, what Jane would have expected, what anybody of any sense would have expected, is that he would have accused her of adultery. He would have banished her to a nunnery, and he would have divorced her, which he had already established he could do just by saying, I'm divorcing her. So that would be what you would do. And she would be horribly shamed, and all of her family would go undercover. But there's no question that Anne Boleyn was executed because she was accused of plotting against the king's life by allegedly telling her brother and others that he was impotent. As any comment on his life is treason. But nobody says Catherine Howard plotted against his life. Nobody says she was involved in incest or witchcraft. There's no reason for her to be executed at all. And initially it looks as if she's going to moved to a nunnery. All of her lovely jewels and lovely stuff is taken away. She has to stay there. But she has ladies in waiting. And she has, you know, depressing clothes in dark colors. She doesn't have a look.

[Kate Lister]

And she has her head.

[Philippa Gregory]

She's still alive and Jane is still with her. So, you know, you go like, oh, this is a disaster, but it's not life threatening. And then when Henry learns that she's been meeting Culpepper while on royal progress with him, so in the day, she's standing beside him and going like, you're so great. I'm so happy to be your wife. And in the night, she's sneaking out to, on some occasions, the privy and meeting Culpepper anywhere they can meet. Henry's just absolutely furious. And that's why he decides to execute it. It's not law, it's vindictive rage. And that's why he wants to execute Jane, because she was party to it, because she has, in a sense, seen that somebody preferred very much someone to him. It's literally. It's narcissistic rage. I think you have to understand it in the context of a man whose vanity cannot tolerate the fact that somebody might prefer a man young enough to be a son.

[Kate Lister]

Did she have a trial?

[Philippa Gregory]

No. That's among the really awful things about it, is that Henry doesn't have to put her on trial because Cromwell has already recreated this legal fiction called the Order of Attainder, which just means that the King can say, I want this person dead, signed Henry, and that's it. So there's, you know, Magna Carta, which precedes Henry, which guarantees the safety of subjects of the king, is out the window. This is genuinely political tyranny. And the novel is very, very clear that it's not the personal pursuit of these women, but it's the change of Henry from a kingship which sits amongst equals with lords around him, to a tyranny which is focused entirely on him, which makes it possible for him to kill women as not just a murderous husband, but as a tyrant. And to me, the link, of course, which we know between domestic abuse and tyranny, you know that domestic abuse is a tyranny. And in Henry viii, we see, and in, I imagine, other tyrants, we see it playing out completely. Wow.

[Kate Lister]

So poor Catherine doesn't get a trial, Jane doesn't get a trial. How does Jane deal with this? How does anybody deal with it?

[Philippa Gregory]

Well, Jane, still thinking, still clever, decides to invoke by her actions the Tudor law which says that mad people cannot be executed. The assumption is that God has already punished them enough. And so a mad person goes and lives with their family, or maybe goes and lives in a nunnery, or maybe is chucked out even on the streets, but they're not Executed. So she's got a root. If she can be convincing in it. And I believe she pretends to be mad. And she does such a good job of it and that she is released from the Tower of London into the care of Admiral and Lady Russell, who keep her at their beautiful house in the Strand and nurse her and take her to church. And she's visited by the King's personal physician to see if she is mad or not. And she convinces everybody that she is mad. At which point, if you were Jane, you would be going, I am going to get away with this.

[Kate Lister]

Scot free. Done.

[Philippa Gregory]

Clever, clever, clever woman. And Henry VIII changes the law, which now says you can execute a mad person.

[Kate Lister]

Absolute shit.

[Philippa Gregory]

Changes the entire law in order to.

[Kate Lister]

Kill her just to get her. Yeah, that's really personal. Then that's not just that. She kind of got swept away with this and, oh, we've killed her too. He really wanted to get rid of her.

[Philippa Gregory]

Really, really, really could not stand the thought that anybody could think that he was inferior in any way.

[Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Philippa Gregory]

Which is why I think he's a psychopath. I know he's a narcissist, but I actually think what we're talking here is something so extreme that he would rather people were killed than they thought badly of him.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Philippa and Jane after this short break.

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[Kate Lister]

I know that the laws and everything's different, but she hasn't really done anything wrong here. I think we could probably argue that Catherine hasn't done anything wrong either, but she definitely didn't do anything wrong.

[Philippa Gregory]

She hasn't done anything that deserves the death penalty. She's not done treason, she's not threatened the King, she's not acted against the King in any direct way. She's stood by while the Queen saw, that's all we know, another man. So that's an accessory to adultery. That's not a crime.

[Kate Lister]

No, that's not a crime.

[Philippa Gregory]

Even if it was a crime, she has the absolute grace, the pardon, from being seen as being mad.

[Kate Lister]

That must have been a moment when they came to get her for that and said, oh, we've changed the law now.

[Philippa Gregory]

I think in my novel that's when I have her realizing that it's not a question of surviving a difficult man. She's up against a state, a man who's become a tyrant and a state that has become tyrannical. And that's why the book is at one level very, very political, as well as a personal story about love and death and disaster and success. It also says that when you realise that you are in a tyrannical state, if you're not very, very aware, it's too late to save yourself. You should stop a tyrannical state the minute it starts.

[Kate Lister]

Very potent words for what we're going through right now. So Jane and Catherine look at me on first name terms with them. They are executed together, aren't they?

[Philippa Gregory]

They're executed sequentially. So sequentially Catherine goes on the scaffold first and she gives a very short apology. She doesn't admit adultery, but she gives a very short apology for offending the King.

[Kate Lister]

I have huge respect for that because if that had been me, I'd have got up there and just said, he was an absolute dick. I hated him. He was terrible in bed. I'll see you all. That would have been me on the way out. But she's got the good grace to even stand there and say sorry to the.

[Philippa Gregory]

She gets the block into her own cell to practice putting her head down. Oh, God, she's so young. She just wants to do everything right. And that's, you know, she's very, very, very ill educated. What she's brought up to do is to be graceful and pretty and Ornamental. And her last act is to, is to try and do it right. So she does that and then Jane, this woman who has survived five of Henry's six queens.

[Kate Lister]

She nearly made it.

[Philippa Gregory]

She nearly made it. Follows her to the block, gives a brief speech apologizing for anything that she might be thought to have done wrong, and puts. Kneels in the blood stained straw, puts her head down on the bloodstained block.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, it's grim.

[Philippa Gregory]

It's very grim.

[Kate Lister]

Do we know? Because I know that sometimes these executions don't go very well. Was it at least quick?

[Philippa Gregory]

This is at least quick, yeah. There's a previous execution of a woman of 78 who Henry beheads for no reason without a trial. And that goes really bad.

[Kate Lister]

The more I hear about him, like I think I've made my mind up about how horrible he is and it just gets worse.

[Philippa Gregory]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

So she's 78 and what happens with that?

[Philippa Gregory]

I mean, again, it's. She has a very, very, very talented son who Henry admires very much when they're on the same side of the religious question. But the son stays faithful to the Roman Catholic Church and Henry decides to set up a rival church in England which ultimately becomes our Protestant church and the Church of England. But at the time it's literally because that way Henry can get the prophets, the enormous wealth of the church, and also get rid of his wife, Catherine of Aragon. And Reginald Pole writes a book which makes it absolutely clear that this is what Henry has done. And Henry is so furious with him that after a lot of coming and going, which I won't trouble you with, he arrests most of his family and beheads most of his family really, to revenge himself on this criticism. And Margaret Pole, Reginald's mother, is the matriarch of the family and he arrests her and they interrogate her for days, night and day. And they say she never incriminates herself, she never says anything that they can hold against her. So they just hold her in the tower until Henry wants to kind of tidy up the tower before he goes away on a royal progress with Catherine to the north of England. And he orders her beheading, I think they tell her in the evening she's going to be beheaded tomorrow morning. So she has no time to prepare and they don't have a competent headman, so he chases her around the scaffold, beheading her.

[Kate Lister]

Oh. Oh dear. Then at least it was quick for Jane and Catherine unjust.

[Philippa Gregory]

It was quick for Jane, it was quick for Catherine and it was quick for Anne as well.

[Kate Lister]

God Almighty.

[Philippa Gregory]

I know.

[Kate Lister]

After writing this novel and deep diving into this woman and assessing her, what do you think her legacy is? Because if we had a strap line for this show, it might be the Victorians messed it up because they seem to get. They seem to get into everything and twist things. But what do you think her legacy is? Is she the evil Lady Rochford?

[Philippa Gregory]

Part of the joy of writing this book is to offer a different view of her. To say, maybe she was a spy for Thomas Cromwell. Maybe she was a woman who had a very clear sense of her own ambition and her own abilities. Maybe she was playing the card she had in a way that is absolutely admirable. Maybe she was neither a bad person as the Victorians would have, or a mad person, as subsequent historians have suggested. Maybe she's the woman in the most recent biography, which is a very, very good biography by historian Julia Fox. You know, maybe she's someone trying to survive in this very, very, very dangerous world and she is one of the many people that Henry killed for no good reason. So maybe her legacy to us is to say, when you see tyranny coming, stand against it, because sooner or later it will come against you or the things you love.

[Kate Lister]

Philippa, you have been marvelous to talk to and very prophetic words to end on. If people know more about you and your book, and frankly, they should, where can they find you?

[Philippa Gregory]

Well, I've got a website and I do podcasts. I've got a podcast series called Normal Women, which is about the normal women of history from 1060.

[Kate Lister]

I loved your book Normal Women.

[Philippa Gregory]

Brilliant. And the novels you can buy anywhere you get your books. And also it's an audiobook. It's a really, really lovely audio edition read by actress Gemma Whelan.

[Kate Lister]

Fabulous. Thank you so much for giving us your time. You have been fascinating.

[Philippa Gregory]

It's been a pleasure. Always a pleasure.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Philippa for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along whatever it is you get. Your podcasts. Coming up, we've got an episode taking you inside the brothels of the Wild west and another one on the wife swapping magician of the Tudor court. And if you would like us to explore a subject, or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email [e-mail] this podcast was edited by Tim Arstall and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again, betwixt the sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by History hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

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