The Medici vs. Tudor Rivalry

Summary

---

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society

Episode: The Medici vs. Tudor Rivalry
Host: Dr. Kate Lister
Guest: Estelle Paranque, historian & author
Date: February 20, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Kate Lister welcomes historian Estelle Paranque to delve into the intertwined lives, letters, and political gamesmanship of two of the most powerful women of the 16th century: Elizabeth I of England and Catherine de Medici of France. Despite wildly different paths to power and personal philosophies, the two monarchs navigated hostile courts and patriarchal structures with wit, ambition, and, occasionally, pointed correspondence. The episode explores the nuances of their rivalry and rapport, their contrasting roles as “the Virgin and the Widow,” and the political and personal stakes underpinning their infamous exchanges—including their attitudes toward motherhood, sexuality, and the ever-meddlesome Mary, Queen of Scots.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Unlikely Monarchs

• Both Elizabeth I and Catherine de Medici were never expected to rule in their own right but rose to unprecedented power.
  • “Elizabeth was not meant to be queen. I mean, she was in line. But, you know, she should not have ruled, really.” —Estelle Paranque [05:39]
  • Catherine’s journey: orphan → princess → queen consort (overshadowed by Diane de Poitiers) → queen regent.

2. Their Personalities & Paths to Power

• Both mastered survival in a man’s world but through starkly different means:
  • Elizabeth: The “Virgin Queen,” fiercely independent, leveraged marriage negotiations to maintain autonomy.
  • Catherine: The “Queen Mother” and political widow, wielded her role as mother to kings as leverage.
• On the Virgin vs Widow dynamic:
  • “It’s really the virgin versus the widow. It’s really the virgin versus the mother.” —Estelle Paranque [12:48]

3. Attitudes Towards Motherhood & Sex

• The two queens’ views on sex, power, and motherhood were radically different:
  • Catherine saw motherhood as the source of female influence and power: “Power comes through motherhood."
  • Elizabeth countered, emphasizing her own inherent authority: “I’m the daughter of a king. My power comes from me. I don’t need [children].” —Estelle Paranque relaying Elizabeth's vibe [13:12]
  • Notable quote: “My body, my choice. We’re in the 1500s. That’s insane. That’s amazing.” —Estelle Paranque on Elizabeth’s stand to Parliament [09:04]
• Both cite the social and personal pressures women endure regarding marriage and motherhood.

4. Catherine’s Infamous Marriage

• Catherine’s marriage to Henry II was fraught, with the king’s devotion to his older mistress, Diane de Poitiers.
  • Bizarre sexual arrangements involved all three:
    • “She prepares Henry and he finishes in Catherine. That...so hurtful, so humiliating.” —Estelle Paranque [21:10]
  • Kate interjects: “She’s just a semen sucker, that’s what she is.” [21:36]
  • Both hosts reflect on the lack of consent and the use of Catherine’s body as a mere dynastic tool.

5. Diplomatic “Pen Pals”: Letters & Gamesmanship

• Their correspondence began formally, but quickly turned strategic—every written word had layers.
  • “You can almost imagine, like, Elizabeth reading some of the letters and say, ‘Yeah, right, as if I wanted to be you.’” —Estelle Paranque [04:45]
• Catherine persistently pushed marriage between Elizabeth and her sons, tying power to motherhood.
  • Elizabeth strung along proposals for decades, using them for political leverage:
    • “Can you imagine making a man believe that you’re gonna marry him for over ten years? ...She gets the best of both worlds.” —Estelle Paranque [29:51]

6. The ‘Queen’s War’: Politics, Betrayals & Lessons Learned

• Religious civil wars in France drew Elizabeth in; Catherine out-maneuvered her by flipping Protestant allies.
  • “Elizabeth never makes the same mistake twice. She’ll never ever again underestimate Catherine.” —Estelle Paranque [26:34]
• Result: mutual respect but also deep caution and rivalry.

7. Interventions with Mary, Queen of Scots

• Common enemy: Both queens actively sought to thwart Mary’s ambitions due to her connections (Guises, Spanish court) and potential claim to thrones.
  • “What they were fearing... was an alliance between Philip II’s son and Mary Queen of Scots in Scotland. That’s not good for France. That’s not good for England.” —Estelle Paranque [37:03]
• Letters between Catherine and Elizabeth were discreet when discussing Mary, avoiding overt insults for diplomatic safety.
  • “They do not say [bad things] that way, but they do imply that she’s not very smart.” —Estelle Paranque [40:54]
• Both underestimated Mary's cleverness: “She is incredibly smart.” [41:28]

8. End of the Rivalry: Mary’s Execution

• Elizabeth’s execution of Mary, Queen of Scots, was a turning point—Catherine was furious, diplomatic ties broke.
  • “When Mary Stuart is executed, Catherine de Medici is shocked and she thinks that Elizabeth went too far.” —Estelle Paranque [42:18]
  • The execution destabilized France's internal politics and royal authority, giving the ultra-Catholic Guises more power.
• Secret alliance: Henry III of France (Catherine’s son) developed a private, strategic relationship with Elizabeth against mutual enemies.

9. Elizabeth’s Mythic Virginity

• Estelle (supported by evidence) doubts that Elizabeth remained chaste, especially where Robert Dudley is concerned.
  • “Every single royal physician of Elizabeth I had a patron... Robert Dudley.” —Estelle Paranque [47:52]
  • On the truth of Elizabeth’s virginity: “No, I mean, I hope not. I hope not, I hope not.” [47:17]
  • Kate: “At least she got a finger blast. Something, something.” [48:37]

10. Would They Have Gotten Along?

• Despite rivalry, Estelle believes they’d have enjoyed each other’s company:
  • “I think they would have gotten [on]. They had very similar sense of humor, similar wit, and they were both intelligent women.” —Estelle Paranque [48:58]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Female Judgement:
  “Women are very judgy. They’re hella judgy about other women and other women’s choices, and particularly other women’s choices under the patriarchy, when they’re rather constrained.” —Kate Lister [10:27]

• On Political Intrigue:
  “Every decision has a consequence. It’s diplomacy, isn’t it? That’s why I’d be terrible at diplomacy. I’d be awful.” —Kate Lister [28:13]

• On Catherine’s Marital Advice:
  “That’s actually a letter, an exchange letters... power comes through motherhood. It is true for Catherine.” —Estelle Paranque [13:09]
  “But Elizabeth replied, I’m the daughter of a king. My power comes from me. I don’t need [that].” [13:12]

• On Stringing Along French Suitors:
  “She does it because as long as there are marriage negotiations... It means peace. It means that she’s got something they want.” —Estelle Paranque [29:51]

• On the End of the Friendship:
  “After that, they are definitely no more [correspondence]. ...The diplomatic relations [have] completely broken off between the two.” —Estelle Paranque [42:44]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Elizabeth & Catherine’s Unexpected Ascensions: 05:39–06:26
• Motherhood vs. Virginity & Letters: 12:48–13:18
• Catherine’s Marital Ordeals: 19:16–22:09
• First Letters & Start of Political Rivalry: 22:29–25:17
• Religious Wars & Betrayal: 25:17–26:34
• French Marriage Negotiations: 27:46–30:12
• Elizabeth’s Strategic Hold-out: 29:51–30:29
• Mary, Queen of Scots as Frenemy: 36:24–41:27
• Mary’s Execution Fallout: 42:18–43:52
• Elizabeth’s “Virginity” and Dudley: 47:17–48:37
• Would They Have Been Friends?: 48:58–49:16

---

Tone & Atmosphere

Richly conversational and irreverent, Kate and Estelle balance scholarly analysis with wry humor and modern analogies. The tone is playful (“semen sucker” and jokes about finger-banging), while insights are grounded in research and lively critique of patriarchal history. The banter makes serious historical themes accessible and engaging without sacrificing nuance.

---

Summary

This episode of Betwixt the Sheets is a dynamic, spirited dive into the rivalry, rapport, and political maneuvering between Elizabeth I and Catherine de Medici. Through their letters, policies, and shared adversaries, the queens exhibit both mutual respect and continual one-upmanship, using every tool at their disposal—motherhood, marriage markets, and even their alleged sexual purity or experience. The episode is packed with revealing anecdotes, sharp feminist commentary, and juicy historical asides, making it a must-listen for anyone fascinated by women’s power and diplomacy in early modern Europe.

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

We interrupt this program to bring you an important Wayfair message. Wayfair's got style tips for every home. This is Styles MacKenzie helping you make those rooms sing. Today's style Tip when it comes to

[Estelle Parrank]

making a statement, treat bold patterns like neutrals.

[Kate Lister]

Go wild like an untamed animal. Print area rug under a rustic farmhouse table. From wayfair.com fierce this has been your Wayfair style tip to keep those interiors superior.

[Estelle Parrank]

Wayfair Every style, every Home. When the flu is keeping you up at night, don't try to tough it out. Knock out your flu symptoms with NYQUIL Intense Flu.

[Kate Lister]

You got this.

[Estelle Parrank]

It provides powerful relief of your flu

[Kate Lister]

symptoms so you can sleep well through the night.

[Estelle Parrank]

Nyquil Intense Flu.

[Kate Lister]

The nighttime Sniffling, aching, aching fever. Best sleep with a flu medicine.

[Estelle Parrank]

Use as directed.

[Kate Lister]

Keep out of reach of children. From how the humble potato changed the course of history. Two fish fingers, Hemingway and masculinity. To 5000 years of facelifts on leg, we look at the lives, events and ideas that have shaped our world.

[Estelle Parrank]

I'm Peter Frankenbern.

[Kate Lister]

I'm AFWA Hirsch. And while there are other shows that talk about history, what's so unique about Legacy is that we're looking at the impact of those histories on our everyday life today, whether through our identities or the ideas that we're raised with. Our podcast is called Legacy, out every Tuesday and Thursday. Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. This is Betwixt the Sheets. We are a naughty, spicy historical podcast. And because of all of that, I have to tell you, even though I'm sure you know, I'm absolutely sure that you all know this by now. But this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adult things in an adult away coming around subjects. And you should be an adult, too. Are we all adults? Yes, I think we are all adults. Although if any kids have snuck in, be off with you. Go away. We don't want you around here. Right. For the rest of you, let's crack on. 16th century Europe was a wild time for many, well, frankly, ridiculous reasons. I mean, it was just a bonkers place to be. And yet, at one time, there were two women holding the most powerful seats in Europe. And that is pretty remarkable when you think about it. These two women were, of course, Elizabeth I, Lizzie, as I like to call her, and Catherine de Medici or Cath. Yes, pedants. I see you. Kathy wasn't really technically a queen. I know. We know. But boy, did she wield some serious Power. And how did these two women see each other? Was this rivalry or respect? And how did the rest of Europe see them? Well, we are going to head back to the 16th century to find out more. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. What makes the lives of Elizabeth I and Catherine de Medici all the more fascinating is that neither of them expected to rule. They kind of just ended up in positions of enormous power and influence. But how do their lives really compare? What did they want from one another? How did they handle various political crises, I. E. Mary, Queen of Scots? Hmm. Well, joining me today is the author and historian and friend of the show, the always fabulous Estelle Parrank. And she is going to help us get to know these two women a little bit better. And whilst I'm here, I wanted to let you know about the two Betwixt the Sheets live shows that are happening in May, one in Edinburgh and one in London. And tickets are available now [e-mail] just search for Betwixt the Sheets and I'd love to see you there in May. Scepters at the ready, everybody. Let's do this. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Estelle Prank. How are you doing?

[Estelle Parrank]

I'm very good, Kate. How are you?

[Kate Lister]

I'm so pleased that you're back. That's how I am. We always have so much fun. But I think that you've set the bar very, very high with your Habsburg one and your weirdest menage a trois in history one. Like, how are we gonna make this? Because this seems like quite a serious subject, this one. The relationship between Elizabeth I and Catherine de Medici. Like the weirdest pen pal relationship.

[Estelle Parrank]

I think there is lots to unpack as well about these two women, how much they have in common. They're relationship towards sex as well. Like, it's so different. You have the virgin, you have the widow mother, you know, it's, it's, they're so different. And at the same time, we know that Catherine had a menage trois. You know, we, we know that she had to put up with a raw mistress, you know, like Diane de Poitier. And I think that sometimes when she wrote letters to Elizabeth, she was kind of funny in the things she was saying. You know, you could almost imagine, like, Elizabeth reading some of the letters and say, yeah, right, as if I wanted to be you.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, God. Weird letters to get. Absolutely. But like, let's take it back before we even get to the weird letters. They were mates, Right. They were like. Like what? Pen pals? Like when you're at school, you get a pen pal in France and if you're in France, maybe you get one in England. Is that what happened?

[Estelle Parrank]

I mean, that's a funny way of saying this. I mean, yes. I mean, I think that what we have to understand that we have Elizabeth I, Tudor queen, who ruled on her own for 44 years, so from 1515 to 1603. And you have Catherine de Medici, whose life is also so unpredictable. A bit like Elizabeth, because let's remember, Elizabeth was not meant to be queen. I mean, she was in line. But, you know, she should not have ruled, really. Edward VI should have ruled. He should have had heirs. You know, she. She would just have been a Tudor princess in the background.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Estelle Parrank]

And he would not even be talking about her. Right. Do you see what I mean?

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. Both of them, it was. It wasn't a sure thing that they were going to be queen and definitely not with Catherine de Medici, she sort of enter stage left.

[Estelle Parrank]

Yeah. So you have the bastard with Elizabeth also. And then you have the orphan with Catherine Domenici. And I think what's so interesting is that with Catherine de Medici, obviously the orphan, then she becomes princess of France. Then she becomes heir parent to the throne with her husband Henry. Then she becomes Queen Concert. But it's not her time to shine. She's still very much overshadowed by her biggest rival, Jeanne de Poitier. Then he died. And then she becomes queen mother to Francis ii. But even then, you know, so there's Francis II and Mary Sturge, another interesting relationship here. And she's in the background, she's trying. She becomes an advisor, she's in the privy council, but she's still not, you know, holding to power. And 1560, therefore Francis II, then we have a son who's nine year old who becomes King Charles IX. And she's like, now it's my time. And so you have a queen regent in all but name. Like what she had to do to get to that position is quite interesting as well, how she had to manipulate and play with men and their ambitions and everything. But then she's ruling with him and to the point that even when he's of age, you know, at 12 years old, he's of age, he's crown and everything. And then he's saying, basically saying, mom is still ruling for me. And it's when he got into. Is like, you know, almost 20. And he's like, well, actually, Mom, I Would like to rule as well, and. And she's making a bit of space for him. And that's where you have the relationship with Elizabeth, like, starting. So you have on the English throne a virgin. They, you know, ruling on her own, someone. You want her to get married. You know, like, there's this fascination with Elizabeth I because she didn't marry. And Catherine doesn't get it. She doesn't get it. It's so funny. In her letters, she's literally writing to Elizabeth and she's like, I'm paraphrasing here. Obviously, she didn't see it that way, but in her letters, she's like, what are you doing, mate? You're women. Women are supposed to be mothers. What are you doing? Why. Why aren't you having kids? Because, you know, like, women, you know, when we talk about how women are pressured, you know, in their 30s, in their 40s, you know, I think at whatever age, if we don't have kids, you know, I. I have kids, but even when I, you know, when early 30s, people were like, tik, tok, tik, tok, tik tok. Personal. That's why it's a personal choice, isn't it? It's. It's.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, off.

[Estelle Parrank]

Exactly.

[Kate Lister]

All the way off. And then when you get there, off some more. Sorry. It's a personal. Sorry. That went somewhere quite personal there. Apologize, listeners. I'm very sorry.

[Estelle Parrank]

Well, Kate, you're right. I think you're like, yeah, I am right. That pressure has always been here. And Elizabeth is the first woman. She said, you off. Yeah, for this. I love her for being, like, so much in charge, not only of a body, of a life. And she says it. I mean, for crying out loud, you have a queen who says to Parliament, who are like 200 men. And she said, my body, my choice. We're in 1500s. That's insane. That's amazing. You know, we haven't anything. Exactly. You know what I think is interesting is that we think that the pressure comes from men. And I disagree.

[Kate Lister]

I. I mean, yes, yes, it might be.

[Estelle Parrank]

It might be, but I disagree. It's really from other women judging each other. You're a woman who doesn't have kids. You're judged. You're women who ask kids, how are you raising your kids? How many kids do you have? How many. What are you doing? Are you having a career as well? Do you want. What do you want a karaoke baby? And so it's so interesting that these. We have so much to learn from these women. These two women Like Catherine Medici, Elizabeth. But for Catherine, she is pressuring Elizabeth. Even in the letter, she's writing like, there's no greater pleasure than mother. Right. To a son obviously gay, because obviously to a daughter would be a disaster. That's awful. But, yeah, I was reading that letter and I was like, oh, Catherine, if that's your biggest pleasure, honestly, maybe you need another one.

[Kate Lister]

It's. It's like, it's. Women are very judgy. They're hella judgy about other women and other women's choices, and particularly other women's choices under the patriarchy, when they're rather constrained. But it, as is always the case, it's like, is this a thread you really want to pick out? Because Catherine de Medici, she is not the poster girl for a happy marriage. She's not the poster girl for like, oh, wouldn't you like some of this? Elizabeth wouldn't. Isn't this just like the best. The best setup? Get yourself one of these.

[Estelle Parrank]

I mean, first you're right. And you know, like, you touch a very interesting point, because Elizabeth, she doesn't say it directly in letters to Catherine, but she said it to the French ambassador and she says it many times and it's a dig at Catherine. She said, I do not want to be with someone because I'm queen. I want to be loved for the woman I am. And that's very modern, isn't it? And it's a dig at Catherine. I honestly don't know. I mean, in a way, it's. It's in the French ambassador's report, so she must have read them. Right. But here it's like a punch in your face saying, like what you've just said. You're not really the poster girl for a very happy marriage. I don't really want to be. To end up with a man who's then, you know, putting his role mistress in the forefront of everything. I don't want to be cheated on. I don't want to be humiliated. There would have been a massive difference, though, because Elizabeth of the regnant Queen is not a queen. Consent. Right. I don't know how much she would have allowed any husband to go down that road. Right. You know, Catherine had no choice. Absolutely no. No agency.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Estelle Parrank]

Elizabeth had a bit more. But, you know, there's another thing that I think we don't talk enough about is the fact that giving birth, you can die. And Catherine had 10 pregnancies. I don't know how she managed 10 pregnancies. Yeah. Or nine. And she had twins but, like, it's still a lot. And it's like, what on earth were you doing?

[Kate Lister]

I think that I've probably allowed us to get a little bit ahead of ourselves. We should probably take a couple of steps back for anyone who's listening who didn't catch the Catherine de Medici episode that we did, because there'll be people listening to this going, what, what, what's happened? What's happened? Give us a quick lowdown of Catherine de Medici' marriage and the. The glaring issues with it, and then perhaps they'll understand why it's particularly odd that she's writing to Elizabeth going, God, you should get one of these. This is ace.

[Estelle Parrank]

Yeah. And. And also, you know, it's really the virgin versus the widow. It's really the virgin versus the mother. And that's actually. There's a beautiful. That. That's actually a letter, an exchange letters. So you have Catherine saying, you know, the most beautiful thing is to become a mother there. And she basically says that power comes through motherhood. It is true for Catherine.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, that is true. She's the mum to a king. That is true.

[Estelle Parrank]

But Elizabeth replied, I'm the daughter of a king. My power comes from me. I don't need.

[Kate Lister]

Boom.

[Estelle Parrank]

You see what I. Again, like, it's, it's. And I think that's such an interesting relationship because you have two women who are so different, but so similar in terms of their personalities. It's. Again, it's so funny. In the French ambassador's report, he says that he wished that the two women had met because he's sure that they would have become friends. You know, he. And he knew them personally. You know, he met them personally, like in. In life, in real life, you know. You know, I was going to make a joke, not online, obviously, in 16, you know, writing letters like, what. What kind of image you have of a person, it's so different. I think it shows you how the importance of the words and the words create images, representations of people, and then you create your own, you know, idea of someone through the letters. But here, this man who spent time with Elizabeth, seven years in England, and then who spent lots of time at the French court with Catherine, he said that he really thought that these two women would have been friends. My understanding of those two through the letters and through their words, I do agree with what he is saying. I can see how at the same time, there's a very different type of, like, the similarities is in their boldness, is the fact that they're very powerful, is the fact that they kind of shake the patriarchy, but in different ways. Elizabeth, through being alone, being, you know, maybe we can talk about, was she a virgin? I mean, how ridiculous is that idea? No, I think we need to talk about a little bit. People don't get it. You know, I used to teach in higher education like I taught for 15 years, and students have a very hard time understanding that the Virgin Queen, the myth and the, the propaganda around the Virgin Queen is 1580s. It's not before. And that's because, you know, marriage negotiations are not going to happen anymore. So she steps into that. But before that it was, you know, you don't want to look at someone that you can't touch or like that you can't have relationship with. Otherwise, what's the point? Marriage. Right. And, and so, and we can talk as well about a lot of rumors. I mean, in the French. The French ambassadors for me are much more neutral in the way they represent things, Especially Bertrand Salignac de la Motte Fenelon, because he was someone who spent a lot of time with Elizabeth and he was really reporting, like, everything he was seeing and what he saw and the rumors he heard was that Robert Dudley, you know, Earl of Leicester, was leaving the property at 4am in the morning. Oh, come on. Exactly. Do you play chess in the 4am do you play card? Do you.

[Kate Lister]

There's no man's ever come out of my room at 4am for completely wholesome reasons. Apart from Santa, perhaps.

[Estelle Parrank]

I'm sure he left summer gifts.

[Kate Lister]

I'm sure he did. I'm sure he did. I'll be back with Estelle after this short break. Betwixt us. I have seen the figures and I know what you like. I'm sure that many of you have already been watching season four of Bridgerton, the period drama from Netflix. And if you are, then you should also be listening to their companion show, Bridgerton, the Official Podcast. In each episode, beloved television presenter Alison Hammond from the Great British Bake off welcomes cast members and creative voices from the show onto her couch. Alison asks all of our burning questions, dishing the dirty about the spicy romances and the sumptuous scandalous world of Bridgerton's new series. For instance, what did the cast members really think about that staircase scene? To listen, search for Bridgerton, the Official Podcast in your podcast app. Watch video episodes on Netflix. Bridgerton, the Official Podcast At Charmin, we

[Estelle Parrank]

heard you shouldn't talk about going to

[Kate Lister]

the bathroom in public, so we decided to sing about it.

[Estelle Parrank]

Light a candle, pour some wine, grab A roll. The soft kind for a little me time.

[Kate Lister]

Shaman Ultra Soft Smooth tear wavy edges

[Estelle Parrank]

for my rear, so let the softness caress your soul. Just relax.

[Kate Lister]

You're on a roll.

[Estelle Parrank]

Letter rip.

[Kate Lister]

Charmin Ultra Soft Smooth Hair. Charmin Ultra Soft Smooth hair has the same softness you love now with wavy edges that tear better than the leading one. Ply Brand. Enjoy the go with Charmin. Hi there. I'm Dan, host of Dan Snow's history podcast. I can imagine on these dark winter nights, all you want to do is curl up with a cup of tea and get lost in an amazing story.

[Estelle Parrank]

Well, I can help you with that.

[Kate Lister]

Twice a week, I tell you the most dramatic and extraordinary stories from history, with details I can guarantee you've never heard before. Feel the frostbite of that grisly failed American invasion of Canada in the dead of winter. Imagine every clash and blow at the Battle of Bosworth. Follow Eleanor of Aquitaine, one of the most powerful women in the medieval world, as she goes on crusade to the holy land. With 300 handmaidens in tow, she leads her own army.

[Estelle Parrank]

Everyone goes gaga for Eleanor.

[Kate Lister]

And trace the voyage of the first Vikings as they arrive on Iceland's lonely shores. For the best historical stories to get lost in, check out Dan Snook's history. Before we get to dropping the Dudley bomb, can we get a little bit of tea on Catherine de Medici? Because she. She married. What was his name?

[Estelle Parrank]

King Henry ii. Of course.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you.

[Estelle Parrank]

Yes.

[Kate Lister]

But he. His mistress, who was 20 years older than him, Diane de Poitier, was basically already there. She was, like, installed as this mistress and did not go gracefully. And it was a whole mess.

[Estelle Parrank]

It was a whole mess because she was the lover. She was everything. I mean, for. I mean, is it 10 years? It's almost. Yes, it's almost 10 years of marriage where there's nothing happening.

[Kate Lister]

He's not shagging his wife, is he? He's shagging Dian.

[Estelle Parrank]

Yeah. And it was. I mean, I can't remember if I told you that story in the other. In the other episode we did. So forgive me, I'm gonna repeat myself here, but I think it's one that is kind of shocking is so obviously there was a problem that, you know, she was not pregnant and she was starting wondering what was going on. And Jan accepted to help her because there were rumors of a potential divorce between. Or annulment. You know, there's no divorce, etc. It's an annulment. And she didn't really want to take the risk of Henry II finding Someone else who's more attractive, you know. You know, potentially fall in love with someone. So she really liked having Catherine Medici. I think she was in control of her, you know, much younger. The devil, you know, experienced or, you know, like, she. She was not a threat, you think? Right. I mean. I mean, I find it funny, but she. She agreed to help her. And what broke my heart is that when Catherine was basically asked to look at what was going on because why would it work with her? And when she looked. It's true. Like, it's historically accurate, she looked into a hole, like, to see what was going on when he was having sexual relations with Diane. And she said, he's not doing that to me. And here. It blew my mind. Like, what is he doing to you?

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, what is he doing?

[Estelle Parrank]

Is he like. Is he giving you a squeeze? What is he doing? That is like. So we get.

[Kate Lister]

We get so weird and we get this weird situation with Diane, then helps them to have sex, joins them in the bedroom.

[Estelle Parrank]

She prepares Henry and he finishes in Catherine. I mean, again, that I think so

[Kate Lister]

good for your ego, that, isn't it? That would just. Absolutely. You'd be on cloud nine with that.

[Estelle Parrank]

Yeah. So. So hurtful.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Estelle Parrank]

So humiliating. It's not a threesome where she's. I mean, there's no replacement part of it.

[Kate Lister]

No.

[Estelle Parrank]

You know, no, they're having pleasure and then when he's going to climax, she has to open her legs and he comes in. That's.

[Kate Lister]

She's just a semen sucker. That's what she is.

[Estelle Parrank]

Remind me of Handmaid still or something. Yes, it does.

[Kate Lister]

Yes. It's fucking weird is what it is, Estelle.

[Estelle Parrank]

It's horrible. It's. You're using someone else body and, you know, when we talk about consent here, where is the consent? Because you're consenting to. What are you consenting to? I mean, I think that's just a fine line here because, like, you want to have a dynasty, you want to have children.

[Kate Lister]

It's like you're a tissue just. Just being ejaculated into and thrown away.

[Estelle Parrank]

Oh, yes, exactly. And they did that a lot to.

[Kate Lister]

A lot.

[Estelle Parrank]

I mean, I was.

[Kate Lister]

Poor Catherine, come on.

[Estelle Parrank]

I think everything now is. Is making sense for, you know, anyone who's listening to us thinking, like, yeah, now we understand what. That when Kathleen is saying, like, she should get married to Elizabeth. Elizabeth. Although Elizabeth might not have known this type of details. Not the details that you would have read.

[Kate Lister]

When did they start writing to one another? Because you said they never actually met. And people said it's a great shame because they would have been really good buds. When did they even start writing? Whose idea was it?

[Estelle Parrank]

So basically you have Elizabeth becoming queen in 1558. Well, the 17th of November, Mary I died. Elizabeth is queen. Then the first letter comes from Henry ii. He's still alive. I think it's before the coronation of Elizabeth, War just after. So January, February 1559. And then there's Catherine, who said that she wanted to write a letter as well. You know, it's funny, it's a bit like I exist too. Yeah. Okay. So she sent a letter. I don't think Elizabeth even replied to her.

[Kate Lister]

She gets a lot of letters. She gets a lot of letters.

[Estelle Parrank]

Who the. Are you like, king? Like, I don't care about you.

[Kate Lister]

She left her on red as the kid, as the kids would say.

[Estelle Parrank]

The worst part, right? The worst thing that could have happened to you. Yeah. Well, to be fair, Catherine didn't really like it. Then when Francis II became king, there's still not an established, you know, correspondence between the two. It's really when basically it was when Charles IX is going to be conquered and then there's going to be what I call the Queen's war. So that it's very. I mean, it's not very short. You have the first religious civil war in France in 1562. And you have. So what is the French religious civil war is basically you have people in France who are becoming Protestants. They really are daring to the new reformed ideas. And you're gonna have battles between cities. So it's very strange because usually reformation comes from the top right. The king or the queen changes the religion. And for here it's like down to. They try to do down to bottom. It doesn't work because France is going to remain Catholic, but it means that you have more bloodshed in many ways. And the first religious civil war is you have the Huguenots, the French, we call them the Huguenots, but they're the French Protestants. All they're asking is for the right freedom to worship. But France is a very hard Catholic country. There's gonna be later on the Ultra Catholic League and it's with the Guises, Mary Stutt's family. And they're gonna lead all these little wars anyway. The Gizis are always involved when there's a problem. Always, you know, second half, 16th century. They're always. They're always one. And here, what's for me interesting is that the Huguenots, the leader of the Huguenots is Going to ask for Elizabeth for help, and she's going to make the big mistake to send men and money and they're going to arrive in the north of France to Le Havre. And also she's trying desperately to get back Calais. Right. She really wants Calle back.

[Kate Lister]

They're always losing Calais. The Tudor.

[Estelle Parrank]

Yeah, Mary straight Mary the first, sorry, lost Calais in 1557, 1558. So there's something that they really want back. And so what happens is that she gives money and men. So Elizabeth supports the Protestants in France and Catherine does something that Elizabeth didn't see coming. So they captured the English and the Protestants capture New Heaven, Le Havre. And Elizabeth say, we can exchange the cities. You give me back Calais, I'll give you back Le Havre. I remove my troops, and then you can do whatever you want with the Protestants. Catherine goes to the French leader, Protestant leader, the French Huguenot leader. And she says, what is it more important to be Protestant or to be French? We will forgive everything for you. We will give you freedom of worship in two or three cities, you know, three of main cities, Protestant cities. But you have to turn on the English. Oh, so what happened was you agreed, of course, Catherine send the force, the French forces, the raw forces to Le Havre. Elizabeth thinks that, you know, they can fight the. The Englishmen or with the French Protestants, but the French Protestant turn on them, it's a massacre.

[Kate Lister]

And after that, they were the best of friends. Like what?

[Estelle Parrank]

That's the thing Kate is like. So she lost. She lost that war. And it's going to be more complicated. Like, English ambassadors are going to be very badly treated. They're going to be ascent. It's not prison, but it is a prison. Catherine is playing mind games and she's really showing extreme intelligence. But now you do remember Elizabeth kind of like dismissed her, kind of underestimated her. Listen to that. Because I think it's so interesting to understand the relationship is the fact that then once Catherine won that queen's war, then Elizabeth never makes the same mistake twice. So she'll never ever again underestimate Catherine. She'll always be very cautious. She'll never send money back to the front parties and she'll never get involved in any religious civil wars. She's going to try to help sometimes, maybe sometimes with money, but definitely not with men. She's never going to try to be involved in the French religious civil wars. She's going to stop underestimating Catherine. Catherine makes then the mistake of underestimating Elizabeth. So then for Catherine, she sees Elizabeth as being someone very weak who played a game that she couldn't play. She's like, you know, babe, everything is forgiven. So, 1564. And then she's like, I have a son. You should marry him.

[Kate Lister]

It's so weird, though. Like, how do you go from, like, we're at war. And then Catherine does this sneaky, like, maneuver, and Elizabeth gets humiliated. And then you just. And they're like, oh, let's be pen pals. Like, that's. Unless Elizabeth was writing to her, going, you cow. Fuck off. I hate you. That's that, like, it's so. That it's such a weird pivot.

[Estelle Parrank]

I think it's what you do. You play with the. You know, you're in a world where every decision has a consequence.

[Kate Lister]

It's diplomacy, isn't it? That's why I'd be terrible at diplomacy. I'd be awful.

[Estelle Parrank]

Oh, me too. And you have to be so careful. It's about your country, it's about your people. It's about safety. And here, what Elizabeth saw is like, an opportunity. And think about it. The negotiations Catherine de Medici is going to push in. Elizabeth arms not one, not two, three sons. So we have 1564, 1565. The first kind of negotiation. It goes nowhere. She's playing with them. Then she renews that again in 1567, 68, saying, Are you sure you don't want to marry Charles? He's lovely. She's like, no. No, thank you. Then in 1771, she goes with her second son, Henry, and he's very handsome. And Elizabeth said that he's just like. He's. He's. He's gorgeous. And he was. But Henry was going to be. Henry III says publicly, I will never marry this public whore. Talking about Elizabeth. Oh.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, well, that's not very nice.

[Estelle Parrank]

That's not nice at all. And from 71, she then pushed the last one, Francis. Elizabeth made them believe until 1581, 82, 83, that she will do it. I mean, can you imagine, like, making a man believe that you're gonna marry him for over 10 years? Wow. Can we give her credit here? And she does it because as long as there are marriage negotiations. I mean, what does it mean? It means peace. It means that she's got something they want.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Estelle Parrank]

So she gets the best. The best of both worlds. She's not married, still in charge, but it's almost as if she has an alliance with France because they're trying to. To woo her. And that's where Catherine gets so pissed off. In the end. Because she's like, oh, my God. All these bloody years stringing us along like a fiddle in a.

[Kate Lister]

In a situationship. 3 times. I think not.

[Estelle Parrank]

Yeah. That is insane. And that's a relationship between the widow and the virgin. I've always said it. You know, I wrote a book on. On Elizabeth and Catherine, Bloodfine gold. And I just say that it's basically Catherine wooing the Virgin Queen. Right.

[Kate Lister]

What kind of things they write to each other about? Like, what's like a letter between Elizabeth I and Catherine de Medici? Like, what kind of stuff do they talk about? Apart from marry my son. He's great.

[Estelle Parrank]

Apart from that, what it is about marry my son. Because power is about motherhood. And then you have Elizabeth replying, power is about power.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, it makes a bit more sense now why she's pushing this marriage idea and that you should have babies.

[Estelle Parrank]

It's so funny because Catherine is like, so in 1560, what is it, 66, 67, you have Mary Stewart giving birth to her son.

[Kate Lister]

I've forgotten about her.

[Estelle Parrank]

And, yeah, I wish.

[Kate Lister]

We'll get to her. We'll get to her.

[Estelle Parrank]

I wish I could forget about her. Back on. I work on her. You have Catherine saying, you don't want your cousin to have an heir and you don't have anything. You know, she's playing also on this kind of jealousy and pitting against one of the two women. And Elizabeth's like, no, I'm very happy for Mary to do whatever she wants to do. But the thing is with Elizabeth that she never. She says, power comes from power. But she never says, no, no, no. Right. She says, maybe, yeah, maybe one day. And then she says, can Francis, your son, can he come, the Duke of Anjou, can you come and see me? Yeah. So in 1579, he goes to England. He goes twice. 1579, 1581. And they have time of their life. Honestly, you look at the records, I think, you know, people ask me, do you think she loved him? No, I don't think she loved him.

[Kate Lister]

Well, wasn't. Wasn't he the one that liked to Dr.

[Estelle Parrank]

In.

[Kate Lister]

In ladies dresses and have a dance?

[Estelle Parrank]

True. I think, like, also, like, you know, you do have a bit. Henry III was a bit effeminate, he liked pearls. But after that, it's really propaganda against the Valwa dynasty. So, like, saying that these men were not warriors, they were not strong enough. So obviously they're feminists, obviously they're homosexuals or this. But it's not true. And it might have been a bit, you know, effeminate in a way. You know, I think as soon as a man loves a theater, loves the arts, love portraits, and it's all the

[Kate Lister]

proof that we need, quite frankly.

[Estelle Parrank]

And what's so funny is that people are like, well, I think she loved him. I don't think she loved him. I think she got on with him really well. I think it was fun to be around. I think he made a laugh. We have lots of records of saying that they spent a lot of time together. And there's that story. I. I don't know if you heard about this one, but it's one of my favorite story by Elizabeth the First and the Duke of Anjou, Francis, is that, you know, they have this huge party. So they're partying, partying, partying. And Elizabeth gets drunk. I mean, honestly, there's no way she was not drunk. And she. In front of everyone, you know, there's still everyone at the party. And in front of everyone, she's like, I'll marry you, Francis, and to prove it to you, I'm giving you one of my rings. So she gives him a ring, and, you know, she said, I'll marry you. I will marry you. I. I'm declaring it in front of her. You know, can you imagine? Like, I'm declaring. He's so happy. He's so happy. Maybe less drunk as well. He's so happy, though. He's French. Maybe not. Anyway, and we move on. And then the next day, she's like, oh, yeah, that last night. I didn't mean that. You can keep the ring, but, you know, like, you know, can you see the hangover?

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Estelle Parrank]

And then he lost a plot, and he said, if you do not marry me, I will show what? Everyone. Everyone. The letters you wrote to me.

[Kate Lister]

Oh.

[Estelle Parrank]

And she looked and she's like, do not do this. You cannot do this. It's our private letters. We've never found these private letters, Kate. But I was like. When I was reading that source, I was like, I want to know what you told him.

[Kate Lister]

We all want to know now. Wow. What was the Tudor equivalent of an aubergine?

[Estelle Parrank]

Yeah, I mean, I. I mean. I mean, she must have been so blunt. And so, I don't know, like I said. And that's a story I love, because obviously he got very upset. He never. He never showed the letters in the end. But I think he was really hurt because he really, you know. You know, it's not usual that you. You do not see one another. You know, a dynastic alliance. You do not see one another. And he spent so much time there, and he went twice, and he really thought that, you know, that's really playing him. Oh, I think she was playing Catherine.

[Kate Lister]

I guess she probably was, wasn't she? I'll be back with Estelle after this short break. Your new home is now ready. Dr. Horton, America's builder has new homes

[Estelle Parrank]

that are ready today. With new construction communities throughout the Puget Sound and Central Washington areas and more coming.

[Kate Lister]

Dr. Horton has the right home for

[Estelle Parrank]

you at Dr. Horton. We're still building with more construction, more

[Kate Lister]

communities, and more homes available every day.

[Estelle Parrank]

Tap your screen now or visit drhorton.com to find your new home now ready. Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal housing opportunity builder. Are you looking for the perfect podcast to hunker down with during the longer, colder, darker nights? Well, look no further than the award

[Kate Lister]

winning After Dark myth, myths, misdeeds, and the paranormal with me, Maddie Pelling, and me, Anthony Delaney.

[Estelle Parrank]

We are historians and love all things gloomy and macabre, from Tudor executioners and ancient Egyptian death rituals to witch trials and folklore. Feel transported back in time on After Dark, out every Monday and Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts. And guess what? We're also now on YouTube. After Dark, a podcast from history hit.

[Kate Lister]

This is a good time to bring in Mary Queen of Scots, because something else both Elizabeth and Catherine de Medici could bond over is the fact that they. They quite clearly did not like Mary Queen of Scots. She was a massive pain in the ass to both of them.

[Estelle Parrank]

So that's interesting that you mentioned that, because again, it's a bit more complex. I mean, you're right. I mean, they did bond over, but in a different way. Now, let me explain to you. You remember when I told you about the Queen's War in 1562, 1563, 64. You know when you ask me, like, how do you become friends with someone who's betrayed you that way?

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. You find someone you hate more. Oh, look, perfect.

[Estelle Parrank]

What they were fearing was that before Mary Stewart was deciding to marry Henry Stewart, Lorne Darnley, her second husband, who's awful, she was actually on marriage negotiations with Philip II's son, Don Carlos. And when Catherine de Medici and Elizabeth I learned that they were like, we need to coordinate together to make sure that this marriage negotiation failed, because the last thing we want is an alliance between Philip II's son and Mary Queen of Scots in Scotland. That's not good for France. That's not good for England. So they sent envoys and that Catherine is Throwing, like, one of her daughters is not going to work, but she's throwing another daughter in the mix. So you should marry my daughter, you know, and not blocks, you know, she's using her own daughter, who's queen of Spain, to try to destroy all of this. So you have here really something incredible that's happening where they're doing all they can to prevent this alliance. And Mary Stuart really disrespected Catherine de Medici when she was in France, mostly because Mary Stuart. And something that most people don't know is that she was friends with Diane de Poitier, because Diane de Poitier was a friend of the Guise family.

[Kate Lister]

Diane de Poitiers, the queen's sex helper with her husband. That one. Yes.

[Estelle Parrank]

Yeah. The mistress. The royal mistress. So Mary Suite really loved Diane. And so obviously then if you are very close to Diane, you're going to be an enemy of Catherine. Do you see what I mean? Like, it's not gonna work. It's not gonna work.

[Kate Lister]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Estelle Parrank]

So. And obviously with Elizabeth, that was another problem. Mary sue did not recognize Elizabeth legitimacy on the English room. It's not that I'm trying to defend Mary. I'm not trying to defend Mary. I'm a team Elizabeth. But let's. From her point of view, if you're Catholic, you do not recognize Anne Boleyn's marriage, you know, to. And with this. Yeah. As simple as that. You can't recognize it, however, I said that. But it's funny that the French royal family did recognize it. They recognized Elizabeth on the throne. They accepted her on the. When Henry II sent a letter to Elizabeth, he is recognizing her as queen of England. So that's a bit weird that Mary is just like. I think it's because Mary was like, I should be on the throne. I should be on the throne.

[Kate Lister]

It's not the best attitude that. Is it, to, you know, to make friends when influenced. No.

[Estelle Parrank]

And so she really annoyed them with everything. And then she's going to, you know, everything she's going to do, then she's going to, you know, there's the. Obviously the murder of her husband, Lord Darnley, later on, and it's a hot mess.

[Kate Lister]

Isn't she married?

[Estelle Parrank]

Yeah, she feels that way. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Messy.

[Estelle Parrank]

And for Catherine, she's a ge. And as much as Catherine fears the geeses and she doesn't know really how to handle them, so she doesn't. But she. She doesn't really like them, but she envies their unity. They're so united. Like, it's it's incredible actually, but. So there's all these things going on, but you're right. So what's going to link Elizabeth and Catherine for a long time? It's not just the marriage proposal. It's the fact that the, that they don't like Mary Stewart and they want to kind of counter her influence.

[Kate Lister]

What does it sound like when they're slagging her off? I'd love to know, like, what kind of language are they using? Are they just. Do they just absolutely go for it, or is it much more couched and sort of diplomatic?

[Estelle Parrank]

It's much more careful. It's much more careful. Also, like, I don't think Catherine would have ever taken the risk to write anything bad about Mary.

[Kate Lister]

Much, much smarter than I am.

[Estelle Parrank]

You would have done the same kid, if your could have been in danger or if you could.

[Kate Lister]

No, I would first hint that I was allowed to. I'd be writing it down. Piece of paper. Absolute trollop. What a slag bag. I hate her. I'm queen. And that, that's why, that's why I'm not a queen. And I wouldn't have lasted very long because I'm, I'm not that I'm not smart enough to do it.

[Estelle Parrank]

It requires a lot. Yeah. I think it requires almost like a double life. Right. Where you, you must have, like, people that you can fight into and then, you know, you have to play that game. So they don't really slag her off, but it's very clear that they both do not. They, they do not say that way, but they do imply that she's not very smart, which is a very big mistake because Mary Stewart is very, very smart. She wants people to think she's not. But I'm working on her coded letters and she is incredibly smart.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, really?

[Estelle Parrank]

Interesting. Absolutely. So I think it's a bit funny that they have this idea that she's so a bit stupid and she. But, you know, I tend to think that Elizabeth must have thought more, that there was something more, because the end of the day, Mary managed to survive. And also, you have to look at how many men were so devoted to her. You don't, you know, just devoted for beauty. Come on. I do not believe that you have to inspire them as well as a leader. And I think she had that as well.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. Okay. So they united in this sort of like just. We're not really going to slag her off, but we're quite clearly a bit, a bit sneery about, oh, God, stupid woman. That kind of level of intrigue. But I'm just curious, like, what's this? How long did this pen pal relationship last for? Because it must have eventually got past 20 years.

[Estelle Parrank]

So we about. It started in 60. In 1560. 61. When Mary Stuart is executed, Catherine de Medici is shocked and she thinks that Elizabeth went too far.

[Kate Lister]

She just writes to her, just, what the f. Look, wtf?

[Estelle Parrank]

Yeah, like, wtf? What on earth have you done? Do you think you're better than any one of us? After that, they are definitely no more.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, that brought an end to it. Wow.

[Estelle Parrank]

It's someone who ends up at the English court and Elizabeth sent her back and she's saying something about, you know, how she no longer needs her. So, like, it's so condescending. And you can see that the diplomatic relations has completely broken off between the two. And it lasts between almost like almost 30 years. Almost 30 years. It ends in 1587. For sure.

[Kate Lister]

That would have been. I'm guessing here, but that, that would have been because Mary Queen of Scots was a queen and you don't execute a queen, no matter how much we don't like her.

[Estelle Parrank]

Also, it's not just that. It's the fact that by doing that, Elizabeth created even more problems for the French because the French king was saying. They were saying that the French king was not strong enough, so Henry III was not strong enough to deliver Mary. So the Guises had now so much power in France. So the execution of Mary Sturret is in 1587. 8 February 1587. The Guises then march on Paris and take Paris. The King and the Queen Mother have to flee.

[Kate Lister]

Shit.

[Estelle Parrank]

I think there's this kind of anger as well, of like, you make us look so shit. Women like, you know, there's also this, and I think it is the stroke as well of thinking that Elizabeth might think that she's better than everyone else. There's something else as well. Okay. There's something else going on. I'm going to tell you what it is.

[Kate Lister]

Tell me.

[Estelle Parrank]

It's the fact that not many people know that. And it was a massive surprise when I found out about this in my own research for my PhD. But Elizabeth had a secret relationship, friendship with Henry III of France. So the King of France, so Catherine de Medici's son, and he hid it from his mother because what he realized, he realized Elizabeth was telling Henry iii, your enemies and my enemies are the same. They are the Guises and Mary Stuart. They do not want just England's crown, they want France's Crown. They wanted three crowns. Scotland, England and France. And she's. And. And he finally realized that it was not about religion. He finally realized that the Guises would always start a new war. He tried so hard to find compromises between the Protestants and the Catholics. You know, all the edicts of pacification. He worked so hard on them. Catherine Medici as well, to be fair. And each time they were ruined by the Giziz, by the ultra Catholic. And that's not because they didn't like. It's because they could take power. You know, they really thought that they could take power and they wanted to eradicate Protestantism, that's another thing. But it's also because they wanted three crowns. So the goal was to free Mary, to put her on the English crown, to then overthrow Henry iii, to overthrow Catherine de Medici and take the French crown. And so by executing Mary, even Henry III didn't say anything, really. He said he was sorry for his former, you know, sister in law. And there was all this procession in Paris, feeling very sorry, very sad. He was mourning her, all of this, this. But in private, he was telling Elizabeth, I now see what you're saying. I know you're right. The Gizzies are after me. What am I gonna do? You know? And then she is advising him, and then he has to flee Paris and she's telling him to go back. And she said, like steps in the sunshine, you're king. Actually, their letters at the moment is incredible. And then he's not gonna listen to her and he's gonna order the assassination of Mary sut's cousins in December 1588. And Elizabeth was like, oh, my God, what have you done? She said, yes, I executed Mary Stuart, but you, what you've done is order the assassination. She said Mary sued, had a trial. The Guises didn't have a trial. She said, now it's the end of you. And she was right. He was going to be assassinated himself a few months later. So do you see? I mean, it's all the politics and Catherine de Medici in the. In the middle of it. I think she felt jealous that Henry iii, he was her favorite son and he was listening more to another woman than her. So she really resented Elizabeth for that.

[Kate Lister]

I see.

[Estelle Parrank]

And I think she resented that Elizabeth power came from her own power, that she was free to do what she wanted to do. But was she really free to do what she wanted to? I don't know. I think in a way, you know, you're always constrained with the patriarchy, with. With the card, you're giving frenemies. Yeah, frenemies.

[Kate Lister]

So as a final question then, and I've got to ask you this, otherwise the listeners will go, no, you have to go back and address that point. Elizabeth wasn't a virgin then, in your opinion?

[Estelle Parrank]

No. I mean, I hope not. I hope not, I hope not. I mean, come on alive without anything.

[Kate Lister]

As a Tudor expert, what's your thoughts?

[Estelle Parrank]

Okay. Do you want. Now, let's look at the facts and I'm going to give you a fact that has been overlooked. And I haven't worked on it. I just came across it. Okay. So again, it's not. It's not deep research, but I'm going to tell you something from my understanding. Every single raw physicians of Elizabeth the first had a patron. Do you know who's that patron?

[Kate Lister]

No, I don't know who that patron is. Who's that?

[Estelle Parrank]

Robert Dudley.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, so are you telling me that

[Estelle Parrank]

he was paying for me? He was paying them that to say. I don't have the proof of that, but I found it really weird that the role physicians of Elizabeth I were paid by Robert Dudley, the man who,

[Kate Lister]

if anyone was gonna puff a cherry.

[Estelle Parrank]

I don't. I don't think she was shagging everyone. Okay. Like, that's another thing. I don't think she was miss shagging. I think. I think there was something. I'm. I'm honestly, I'm pretty confident that something happened with Robert Ali more than once.

[Kate Lister]

Okay. Okay. We're just not sure what base.

[Estelle Parrank]

How do you explain the relationship otherwise? How do you, you know, just look at 1574 Kenny Wolf Castle. I can see it happening.

[Kate Lister]

At least. At least she got a finger. Blast. Something,

[Estelle Parrank]

something, something.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, so the final, final, final question then. I'll ask you. Do you think that these two women, Queen Elizabeth and Queen Catherine would have got along if they'd met? Or do you think it was a professional relationship?

[Estelle Parrank]

No, I think they would have got on. I think if they. If there had been no anything diplomatically at stake or, you know, I think they would have liked each other. I think they. They had very similar sense of humor, similar wit, and they were both intelligent women. I think they would have gotten.

[Kate Lister]

Estelle, you have been magnificent to talk to once again. You always are. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

[Estelle Parrank]

Mostly on Instagram. I post a lot on my YouTube channel as well. Elle History. I'm trying, but I do react to historical fiction, but I do react to lots of Tudor shows, and they are bad. Kate.

[Kate Lister]

But that's your definition of bad though, isn't it? If it's just pretty people shagging, then they're pretty good. I'll give you that for historical accuracy. A bit. A bit shonky.

[Estelle Parrank]

Chairs. There's a boob.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, thank you so much. You have been an absolute treat.

[Estelle Parrank]

Thank you for having me.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to Estelle for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along whatever it is you get. Your Podcasts Coming up. We've got an episode asking who was the witch Queen of Scotland? And the first in a new miniseries exploring sex and scandal in Hollywood's golden era. All coming your way. And if you'd like us to explore a subject or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email [e-mail] this podcast was edited by Hannah Feodorov and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Freddie Chick. Join me again betwixt the Sheets the History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

[Estelle Parrank]

Planning a wedding shouldn't feel overwhelming. The Knot brings everything together in one place. Vendors who get your vibe, a custom planning checklist, guest list tool, and a free wedding website that syncs with it all. So instead of juggling a dozen apps and spreadsheets, you can actually enjoy getting married.

[Kate Lister]

Get [e-mail] audio the Knot let's plan your wedding together.

[Estelle Parrank]

Hey, I'm Dr. Z and I'm a neurosurgeon. So that means long hours, early rounds, late nights, and everything in between. And through it all, I wear figs. They're comfortable when it counts and functional when I need them the most. So where do you wear your figs? On shift? On call? On the couch in the break room, listening to this podcast wherever it is. They fit right in. And now listeners of this podcast can get 15% off their first order. Just head to wherefigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wherefigs.com code FIGSRX.