The Murder That Shocked Hollywood

Summary

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society

Episode: The Murder That Shocked Hollywood

Date: March 13, 2026
Host: Dr. Kate Lister
Guest: William Mann (historian and author)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the infamous Black Dahlia murder of Elizabeth Short—a story that captured Hollywood and the world’s imagination in 1947 and has since become mythologized. Host Dr. Kate Lister is joined by historian William Mann to separate fact from urban legend, humanize Elizabeth Short, and analyze the cultural aftermath of her death in post-war America. The discussion covers the realities of Short’s life, debunks persistent rumors, dissects media sensationalism, and considers the wider context of gender, social change, and Hollywood’s shifting landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Stage: Hollywood, 1947

• The episode opens with a vivid description of post-war Hollywood: neon lights, sailors on leave, and young dreamers flocking to the city (02:22).
• Hollywood is painted as both a land of opportunity and a breeding ground for sensational stories, sleaze, and moral panic.

Who Was Elizabeth Short?

• Elizabeth Short was only 22 when she was killed (06:49).
• Born in suburban Boston, she faced hardship: chronic illness as a child, and abandonment by her father at age six, fueling a desire for adventure and escape (07:00).
• She moved around the U.S., eventually landing in California—driven, as William Mann says, by “wanderlust to see the world” (06:54).

Busting Myths: The Real Elizabeth Short

• Common Misconceptions:
  • Persistent (and erroneous) beliefs include her working as an actress, porn star, call girl, or being involved with gangsters (05:11, 05:37).
  • “She was never called [‘the Black Dahlia’] in life... it was given to her by the press after her death,” clarifies Mann (05:37).
• Reality:
  • She was “a young woman with curiosity and drive who was just living her life” (05:37).
  • No evidence supports claims of sex work, film roles, or criminal involvement (21:39, 14:01).

Post-War Gender Dynamics & Social Change

• Short’s life exemplified the tensions of post-war America: women who played key roles during WWII being urged to return to domesticity (04:10, 09:02).
• Mann contextualizes how single women became objects of suspicion: “people are uncomfortable by how many single women are now moving into cities and, you know, what are they up to? It must be up to no good” (09:02).
• The double standard is unpacked: “When a woman does it [lives on her wits], she’s seen as somehow devious... but young men have been doing that for decades” (13:00).

Elizabeth’s Hollywood Experience

• Short arrived in California at a boyfriend’s invitation and soon drifted among friends, couch surfing—a common experience for restless, young, post-war Americans (08:23, 15:17).
• She never actually secured an acting job; letters home claiming bit parts were written “so her mother wouldn’t worry” and misreported by the press after her death (21:40).
• Resourcefulness: She formed platonic relationships—even persuading a wealthy club owner to let her live rent-free by saying she was a virgin (22:14–23:10).

The Murder: Sequence of Events & Impact

• Chronology:
  • After a month in San Diego, Elizabeth was last seen at the Biltmore Hotel in Los Angeles, then vanished (23:54).
  • Her body was discovered a week later, in a vacant lot—cleaned, drained of blood, bisected, mutilated, and posed provocatively (25:27–25:33).
• The nature of the crime:
  • Required surgical skill, time, and intent to shock (“the only one that was damaged was the intestine, but everything else... intact. So the killer knew what they were doing.” – 26:52, 27:35).
• The killer was never found; the case remains open even now (36:15).

Media Frenzy & Public Reaction

• The press shaped public perception, spread myths, and hindered the investigation:
  • “[The press] all kept space on their front page every day for Dahlia News, and when there wasn’t any... they made it up.” (29:43)
  • “Dalia case is selling more papers than Pearl Harbor.” (30:40)
• The victim was demonized—articles even asked, “Is the dahlia to blame?” two months after her death (14:36).
• Sensational coverage cemented the murder as archetypal noir—fueling enduring tropes of innocence lost in Hollywood (39:48).

Investigation: Suspects & The Unsolved Case

• Multiple suspects, from wealthy ex-boyfriends to her female roommates, were investigated and cleared (30:51–31:30).
• Forensics at the time were thorough but produced no breakthrough; no blood was found at likely sites (33:41).
• A possible suspect: a former boyfriend with army surgical training (38:07).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “All the things that I thought I knew about this case were, in fact, not true.”
  — William Mann (04:48)

• “When a woman [lives on her wits], she’s seen as somehow devious... but young men have been doing that for decades.”
  — William Mann (13:00)

• “It was a direct confrontation with society. The body was put there to terrify, to shock and offend.”
  — William Mann (25:33)

• “Her mother would say, ‘You can’t do that, you have asthma.’”
  — William Mann on Elizabeth’s compassion and love for stray dogs (41:44)

• “Elizabeth gets forgotten. Elizabeth Short gets forgotten, but the Black Dahlia remains.”
  — William Mann (40:52)

• On why the story endures:
  “Hollywood is a place where dreams come true, but it’s also a place where dreams are shattered. And so Elizabeth’s story becomes perfect for that...”
  — William Mann (39:48)

• On how Elizabeth would want to be remembered:
  “She was an explorer and an adventurer and a curiosity seeker... I think that’s what defines her most.”
  — William Mann (42:20–43:23)

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Key Segment Timestamps

• Elizabeth Short’s Background & Myths: 04:10–09:55
• Gender Politics & Living on Her Wits: 09:55–15:04
• Hollywood in Transition: 19:42–21:35
• Events Leading to The Murder: 22:02–25:27
• Details of the Crime (graphic content): 25:27–27:48
• Press & Public Reaction: 28:13–30:40
• Investigation & Suspects: 30:51–38:00
• Why the Case Endures/Mythology: 39:31–41:30
• Elizabeth’s Real Legacy: 41:30–43:23

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Conclusion

Dr. Kate Lister and William Mann provide a nuanced portrait of Elizabeth Short, challenging tabloid fantasies and restoring dignity to a misunderstood victim. The Black Dahlia murder is shown to be less about noir myth and more a tragedy shaped by social anxieties, sexism, and relentless media exploitation. The episode ends by honoring Short’s spirit for adventure and kindness, asking listeners to remember the person behind the legend.

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For further reading:
William Mann’s book: Black Dahlia: Murder, Monsters, and Madness at Mid-Century Hollywood
Find William at williamjmann.com or Instagram: @therealmrmann

Next episode teasers: The golden age of Hollywood sex symbols, plus ancient Rome’s island of depravity.

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This summary omits ads, intro, and outro sections for clarity and focus on content.

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to history hit where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries plus new releases every week covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe.

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[Kate Lister]

Car selling made easy on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister, and you are listening to Betwixt the Sheets. Hello. Thank you for dropping by once again, but I do actually I'm being serious this time. I know I mess about with the fair dudes warning, but I am actually a bit serious about this one. Because today we're talking about murder. And a pretty freaking nasty murder. I mean, they're all nasty, but this one was particularly bad. So this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adultery, things in adultery, covering range, adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. And if you don't want to listen to today's episode, we won't take any offense whatsoever. Just scroll on and we'll catch you next time. We are strolling down Hollywood Boulevard at the start of 1947. The neon lights are flashing and sailors are on leave falling in and out of bars that are full of young people, many of whom have been lured here with the promise of stardom. Amongst them is a young woman, Elizabeth Short, who will become famous.

[William Mann]

But.

[Kate Lister]

But for very tragic reasons. In the middle of Hollywood's golden age, the moralists are panicking about the sleaze and the sensation being projected in the movies. And Elizabeth's tragic murder would come to encapsulate all of those dark fears. They will name her the Black Dahlia. And this is her story. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. Post war America was a fascinating time. The soldiers have returned home, and while women's roles were redefined during the war effort, they were sort of expected to go back into the kitchen once it was all done. But not everybody wanted to do that. And one of the many women who didn't was Elizabeth Short, who became known as the Black Dahlia after her brutal murder. Not only was her murder incredibly shocking, but it went on to fuel the booming tabloid culture, becoming entertainment. To make sense of all this and to bring some humanity back to Elizabeth is the fantastic William Mann, historian and author of books including Tinseltown Murder, Morphine and Madness at the dawn of Hollywood. All right, without further ado, let's do it. Well, hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only William Mann. How are you doing?

[William Mann]

I'm doing very well. Thank you for inviting me onto your marvelous show.

[Kate Lister]

Well, thank you so much for coming along. I'm thrilled that you're here. But we do have quite a dark one to talk about today. The infamous Black Dahlia. Dahlia. Dahlia Murder in Hollywood. What do you go for? Dahlia. Dahlia.

[William Mann]

Dahlia is usually the way I say it, but I've heard it all kinds of ways.

[Kate Lister]

Now we'll get onto exactly what happened here, but this is a murder that evidently fascinates you as much as it fascinates other people, because you are the author of the Black Murder. Monsters and Madness in Mid century Hollywood. So can I ask you, when did you first hear about this crime?

[William Mann]

Oh, I've known about the crime for a long time, and like most people, I had certain misconceptions about it. I just, you know, in the culture we seem to think we know that there is this murder and we know about this victim. And it really wasn't until I started researching the book that I realized all the things that I thought I knew about this case were in fact, not true. And that's what drew me into wanting to do a book about it.

[Kate Lister]

All right, I'll tell you what I know. I probably also know the same misconceptions that a lot of people do. So Elizabeth Short was murdered in Hollywood, a very brutal murder. She was found mutilated, cut in half. She was an aspiring actress. Sometimes you hear that she was into early porn films. Sometimes you hear that she was a call girl. There was never anyone found responsible for the murder of this crime.

[William Mann]

Well, you've got a few things correct there. I mean, she was found bisected, and no killer was ever found. But in fact, those images of her, the Black Dahlia moniker that was given to her post death. I mean, this was. This was given to her by the press after she was dead. She was never called that in life really has led to all sorts of untruths, mythologies, that, as you say, people assume that she was a sex worker and that, yeah, she was making porn films and she was maybe involved with gangsters and all of that. And none of that turns out to be the case. She was a young woman with curiosity and drive who was just living her life.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. When I was about 18, I read James Elmore's book on the Black Dahlia.

[William Mann]

Yes, yes, excellent novel. James Elroy is the master of Los Angeles noir. And, you know, it's a great book, but it has literally nothing to do with the case. I mean.

[Kate Lister]

Right, that's where most of my information has come from then.

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[William Mann]

Exactly. Yeah. Literally nothing. The only thing they use is her name and the nickname.

[Kate Lister]

Right, okay, so can you put us straight then? Can you tell us who was Elizabeth Short? What happened to her?

[William Mann]

Yes, she was a young woman. She was 22 when she was killed.

[Kate Lister]

22.

[William Mann]

22. Only 22. And that's important to remember because, you know, we sometimes forget that she was that young and she's couch surfing, you know, among friends, as many 22 year olds do, take a gap year. Anyways, she was a young woman of curiosity and drive and she had a wanderlust to see the world. She was born in a small suburb of Boston in New England, and where the winters were very cold. She suffered from asthma and she'd been. She had an operation for pleurisy, so she used to go to Florida for the winters. Her mother would send her down there so she could get out of the cold. And that really gave her a sense of wanting to see the world. And, you know, she had been abandoned by her father. I mean, there's no better word to say. Her father had abandoned the entire family when Elizabeth was only 6. And in her mind, he was out there seeing the world. He was this glamorous figure. Her mother had certain certainly different impressions of the father who left her with five girls. But Elizabeth thought, oh, he must be living the life. So she's always had this sense of wanting to get out there and be like him and find the world. And so she finally does 22.

[Kate Lister]

I try and think what I was doing at 22, it's so young and you're. Your brain hasn't even finished developing yet. So she's right. Is she on her own when she goes to California? How does she even end up? Because that to me sounds quite dangerous even today.

[William Mann]

Yeah, she was on her own. She did go out at the invitation of a young man that she had dated for a while. He was in the army and he was stationed in Long Beach. So he sent her a letter and maybe the bus fare and he said, come out and join me. So she did. Of course, she tells her that's very

[Kate Lister]

22 year old, isn't it?

[William Mann]

Very 22 year old.

[Kate Lister]

That's very 22 year old.

[William Mann]

Yes, exactly. And even more so she decides, well, since I'm going across country, I might as well stop in Indianapolis. Then I'm going to stop in Chicago and see what the world is like there. And then she finally does get out to Long beach to meet this young man. She's somebody who was defying the post war expectations of women.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, she sounds it.

[William Mann]

Yeah. Because, you know, during the war, women saved the economy by going into the offices and the factories and because all the men were off fighting overseas. And then the men come home in 1945 and the women are expected to go back home and put on their aprons and you have more babies. And Elizabeth, even though she's, you know, she's not quite ready to get married or anything like that, she's not the type of person who's sitting there waiting for Mr. Right to come along. And she doesn't want her mother's life. She doesn't want her mother had to work all the time to support the family. And so Elizabeth goes off and this is a period of time where the role of women in society is being challenged. You know, people are uncomfortable by how many single women are now moving into cities and, you know, what are they up to? It must be up to no good. And that follows Elizabeth Short even past her death.

[Kate Lister]

What was she doing in the war? Do we have record of what she would do? How old would she have been? Still very young teenager.

[William Mann]

Yes, she was still a teenager. Her sister, however, was in the service and was one of the ones who was working on decrypting Nazi codes. So she actually had. Her sister had actually been a war hero, but Elizabeth was a little too young and she did have a fiance who was in the war. He was a flyer. He flew with the Flying Tigers, which was a battalion that was kind of an independent maverick battalion that President Roosevelt supported because they were defending mainland China. So he was a bit of a war hero and she admired that. He, of course, dies in an accident, a flying accident. And that's maybe also part of the reason why Elizabeth decides to. Well, I think it's time for me to go see the world.

[Kate Lister]

And this was a time when people were doing that. I mean, this is the kind. This is like the long lead into the 1960s and not even that, the 50s where the beatniks generation appears, then we've got free love. But it's rooted in post war culture of people. And you can understand after being through something like that that the attitude might be, maybe we can do this differently.

[William Mann]

Yes, yes. And, you know, people expected after the war that, you know, there was gonna be a new sense of tranquility and security, but that didn' because immediately the arms race begins, the nuclear arms race. Now we have worry about atomic bombs. And then the fact that there were so many social changes as well. So many African American soldiers came back, sailors as well, and expected to have the same kind of benefits and reception that their white comrades had received, and they didn't. And so there was racial unrest in the country. Housing covenants were being challenged by African Americans moving into white neighborhoods. This was the rise of the queer movement. So we began to see more people being visible in their sexual nonconformity. And of course, all of these women who are saying, I'm going to. I'm going to delay marriage. I'm going to go out and have my world. Yeah. And so the country's in a, you know, in a conflict with itself.

[Kate Lister]

So she is kind of moving around America a bit, doing. Seeing some sites. I'm curious, how is she paying for this? Because it doesn't sound like she came from money.

[William Mann]

Yeah. You know, she did not.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[William Mann]

And she did rely on the kindness of strangers, you know, and one of the things I write in the book is that that quality of hers, you know, to meet someone, to flash her eyes, get a hamburger bought for her in both men and women, she would, you know, she would befriend and then they would take care of her. And. And that's. That has worked against her in. In the myth that grew up about her that she was somehow shiftless and a user, that she wasn't, you know, you know, she wasn't honest with people. Yeah, but young men have been doing that same thing for decades. Right.

[Kate Lister]

Since.

[William Mann]

Since centuries, you know, taken off seeing the world, getting by on their wits and their charm, you know, telling Tall tales to. To get what they wanted. But when a woman does it, she's seen as somehow devious or up to no good. And. And that's one of the things I try in the book to say, hey, look, listen, this is. This is a young woman, 22 years old, who's, you know, staying with friends, going out and seeing the world. And yeah, sometimes she pulls a few, you know, sad eyes to get a dinner bought for her, but I actually find that kind of admirable. I mean, at least. At least charming, you know, that she was able to get by on her wits.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, she's hustling. You leave her alone like she's all right. Buy her a few hamburgers at dinner. That's not the end of the world, is it?

[William Mann]

That's right. That's right.

[Kate Lister]

But is this partly where the kind of the myth comes from? Because I've heard all kinds of things about this. This woman. I've heard that she was a showgirl, that she was a gangster's mole, that she was selling sex, that she was into porn. All. All of these stories about her.

[William Mann]

Yeah, it does. I mean, having this story after she dies and the investigation shows what she had been doing, who she'd been with, where she'd been living this kind of peripate life lifestyle, people began to pass judgment, you know, well, she couldn't have been a good girl if she was doing that, that she, you know, and implication is that she's somehow responsible for her fate. Yeah, she deserved it. You know, there's even a newspaper article about two months after her death where the. The. The question is asked in a headline, is the dahlia to blame?

[Kate Lister]

Oh, my God.

[William Mann]

And the answer is kind of inconclusive because a lot of people are saying, like, well, yeah, she shouldn't have been out there. She was teasing too many men, you know, so, you know, and that's a story that we still see today. You know, women are blamed for their assaults, that they somehow must have been complicit in this. So Elizabeth Short, you know, she should be treated as anyone else, as any man who is also exploring the world.

[Kate Lister]

So she arrives in California. She's kind of, do you want to say homeless at this point? Like, how is she? Like, she's kind of getting by on her looks and her wits and, you know, but like, where's she staying?

[William Mann]

Well, in the beginning, she stays with her boyfriend until she decides, I've forgotten about him. Yes, yes. And then she, you know, he's in Long beach, and Long beach isn't ex isn't very exciting. So she says she wants to go to Hollywood. She runs into an old girlfriend in Hollywood, so they decide to move, to move in together, and the boyfriend is goodbye. And that's how it goes with her for the next three or four months. She finds girlfriends who let her stay there. She at one point finds another boyfriend, a gentleman sponsor, though there was no sex involved. He was certainly taking care of her. So she moves in with him. So, yeah, it's all of that. She's couch surfing is what I say.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, she is. It sounds very much like what they were doing in the 60s, you know, hitchhiking on your way to San Francisco. And, you know, I just met up with a group of cats and, and we're heading off to do this, that, and the other. And yes, that's what she's doing. But it's in the 40s, right?

[William Mann]

Exactly. And, and it's a time where the, you know, during these first years after the war, the economy is, is not very strong. And so there's a lot of people out of work, a lot of GIs out of work, returning GIs. And so she, she moves with a crowd of people who are all kind of just restless and not, you know, grounded in any one particular place. And she moves through that world.

[Kate Lister]

That must have been quite difficult for you to track. As a historian, did you keep, like, losing her in the records as she's moving around?

[William Mann]

Yes, I, I, you know, you're right. It was very difficult. And there's only a couple of times where I'm absolutely not certain where she was, but for the most part, I can pretty much pinpoint her from day to day.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with William after this short break.

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[Kate Lister]

So she's in Hollywood now. My image of Hollywood in the 1940s is very much colored by the films from Hollywood in the 1940s. That's what I think it's like. I don't imagine that I'm right on that point. So what was Hollywood like at this point in history when she arrives?

[William Mann]

Well, it's an industry in transition because we're seeing the rise of television and we're seeing the attempt by the government to break up the trusts that movie studios had. They owned all the theaters. So the government was saying, this is a trust. We need Monopoly. We need to break this up. So there was a lot of kind of transition about how is this industry going to continue. But it's also a period of time where the movies are shaking off some of the puritanical vestiges of the Production Code. And the Production Code was established in 1934 and dictated what could be shown on screen. And so the movies are starting to become a little more edgy, a little more adult. And I think that reflects the population too. So the population in Hollywood is now younger than it was and less settled. I'm talking actors, I'm talking just hangers on. I'm talking directors, all, everybody. There's a new generation moving in. It's A place in flux. And also, you know, it's a period of growth. This is when the freeways begin to be built around Los Angeles, which means the whole city is just in transition, in change.

[Kate Lister]

I bet it was quite exciting, too, you know, like, I'm going to Hollywood. I'm moving to Hollywood.

[William Mann]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. That was still there. And, you know, Elizabeth did become friends with some women who were bit players in the pictures and, you know, and they shared with her how exciting it was. And, you know, why don't you come and join us there? And Elizabeth said, no, I'm good. I can continue just the way I'm doing.

[Kate Lister]

Did she do any acting at all? Is that a complete myth?

[William Mann]

That's a complete myth.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. Okay.

[William Mann]

You know, it started because she would write back to her mother, who she adored, and she'd write back to her mother in New England and say, oh, I've gotten a job, you know, playing a bit part because she didn't want her mother to worry. And then that, of course, gets reported in the press later, and then they assume she. She did. But there's no record of her ever working for any of the screen actors or the screen extra guilds. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Do we know leading up to the murder who she was associating with, like, where she was staying? I'm just trying to get a sense of, like, the events leading up to this.

[William Mann]

For a time, she was living with a wealthy man by the name of Mark Hanson. He owned the Florentine Gardens, a nightclub. He owned several theaters, independent theaters.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, Elizabeth, well done.

[William Mann]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And. And she told him, you know, she becomes very good friends with another woman who's living in the compound where he lives. And she says, you know, the woman warns her, look, Mark is going to make a passage at some point, and if you don't want that, you know, you just got to be ready. And so Elizabeth says, I'm going to tell him I'm a virgin. And she does. And that makes him stand back. Oh, okay. I won't go there. And Elizabeth gets to live there rent free, hassle free. And until, of course, Mark gets tired of waiting and kicks her out. Because eventually he expects all the women who stay there to put out for him. But Elizabeth at least gets away with that.

[Kate Lister]

See, that's. That's a very sassy, very confident, slightly risky.

[William Mann]

Yes.

[Kate Lister]

Perhaps a little bit reckless young woman there.

[William Mann]

Yeah, absolutely. All those adjectives. Risky, reckless, crafty, Young.

[Kate Lister]

She's just young. Stupid. When you're young, aren't you? You look back at some of the stuff I used to do, I'm like, oh, my God.

[William Mann]

Oh, exactly, exactly. Yeah. But that's the thing is we have to keep remembering she's 21 and 22

[Kate Lister]

years old, really young, so it's horrible what happens to her. But could you just explain a little bit? Not to be too gratuitous, but I think the father was. Such a shocking murder is what has made it last in the public imagination. So can you just take us through, like, when she was last seen and what happens to her?

[William Mann]

Sure. So she goes to San Diego at a certain point. We're not really sure why she went to San Diego, but she. She's there for about a month and then comes back. She comes back on. I think it's January 8th. And the last time she's seen is when a companion drops her off at the Biltmore Hotel. And she's seen there in the lobby making some phone calls, kind of walking around, apparently hoping to either meet someone or someone come by to pick her up because she has no place to stay that night. And the doorman finally sees her walk out into the night, and that's the last confirmed sighting of her until a week later when her. When her body is found in a vacant lot. And it's. It's, as you say, I mean, the. The murder was so grisly and gruesome that. That. That alone has ensured that this case would stay in the public mind. She was. She was. She was bisected. Her. She was drained of all her blood. She was mutilated in various ways, given a Glasgow smile, you know, with the. The knife cutting from her mouth up towards her ears. So she's, you know, it's. It's a horrible death. The one mercy that I think is that it was clear from the autopsy that she had not been sexually assaulted. So that's a small mercy. And also that the. The actual cause of death had been a blow to her head. So we can hope that she didn't experience any further pain from that.

[Kate Lister]

She was discovered naked as well and quite clearly posed in a very public place.

[William Mann]

Yes, absolutely. The body had been scrubbed clean, so there was no fingerprints, nothing, no blood. And it almost looked like a mannequin, two pieces of mannequin when police arrived. And, yes, you're right, it was posed. Whoever had done this wasn't trying to hide the fact that they had done it. If they had, they would have just dumped the body in the river or something like that. They posed this body in a very provocative way. In a vacant lot that was surrounded by new trapped homes that were being built for returning gis. So it was all of these young families with children. And so it was a direct confrontation with society. The body was put there to terrify, to shock and offend.

[Kate Lister]

How do you say this? Right. It's sounding horribly callous and brutal. I don't want it to, but it probably will. But whoever did this, this sounds like it took a lot of work and a lot of effort. This isn't just you hit someone on the back of the head and then you run away or you try and disperse the body to actually go through the process of. As you said, there was no blood in the body, so where's that gone? To cut somebody in half? I've never done that. But I understand that it's not an easy thing to do to carry the body, to transport it, to take it to a high risk area where you can risk being seen, and then to pose it.

[William Mann]

Yes. Yeah, it took some time. Detectives, you know, estimated took several hours at least to, to do all of this. Yeah. And. And whoever did it had some surgical knowledge, had some working knowledge of anatomy because none of the internal organs were damaged by the bisection, which is pretty amazing. The only, the only one that was damaged was the intestine, but everything else, the stomach, the liver, the kidney, all of those were intact. So the killer knew what they were doing. They also knew what vertebrae in the spinal cord was the easiest to slice through. So.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, yeah, graphic.

[William Mann]

Graphic. But in the sense that this, this killer had some surgical experience, which is one of the, the qualifications that investigators looked for. We have to have somebody who has some surgical experience.

[Kate Lister]

Did anyone report Elizabeth missing?

[William Mann]

No, that's. That is. It's very sad. It's very sad. I think it's partly because she, she had gone to San Diego, so her friends in Los Angeles weren't quite sure when she was coming back. And it took a while for the, for the police to identify the body. And then when they finally did, of course, then the people who knew her came forward.

[Kate Lister]

And what's the police reaction to this? I mean, was it immediately a huge scandal and a huge story? I suppose the press is something slightly different to the police. Actually. We'll start with the police. What did the police think about this?

[William Mann]

The police were stunned as anybody else, because even these very experienced homicide detectives had never seen anything like this. And they felt pretty strongly that they'd find somebody pretty quickly because this was so like nothing else that they felt that somehow someone must know about this. Someone must have seen this, and they thought they'd find somebody. Of course, they don't. And then, of course, when they don't, then the press, as you mentioned, the press has its own reaction and just begins putting in every single possibility, every crazy theory, as now people start coming forward and confessing, even though they had nothing to do with the case. So, yeah, it becomes a circus pretty quickly.

[Kate Lister]

It doesn't help, does it? The. The. The press. I mean, there are. There are sort of rules and restrictions. Ish. Today a little bit. But in the 1940s, this is very much the. Well, the press had been around for a while, but this is kind of the heyday of the scandal press, and they did not help. Or maybe they did. You tell me what. How did the press interference with this crime play out?

[William Mann]

I think the police were hoping that they would help because they were keeping the story on the front page every day. And so they were. They were thinking more leads might come in. But what happened is Los Angeles at the time, like most cities at the time, had four or five dailies all, you know, highly competitive with each other. So everybody was trying to jump on the other. It was all about selling newspapers. They all kept space on their front page every day for Dahlia News, and when there wasn't any Dahlia News, they made it up. And so, yeah, ultimately, I think the press was a hindrance because it diverted the police's resources because they had to go and talk to all of these crazy confessors when they should have been doing other things, you know, but, you know, as Jimmy Richardson, the editor of the Los Angeles examiner, said, you know, the Dalia case is selling more papers than Pearl harbor. So, you know, they were making money here.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, dear. That's not good. That's not good at all. Did they ever come close to finding anybody? Were there suspects? Was there anyone in the frame for this?

[William Mann]

Oh, yes, they had quite a few suspects, including the wealthy man that Elizabeth lived with for a while.

[Kate Lister]

We had forgotten about him.

[William Mann]

Yeah, yeah, he was a suspect. And her various boyfriends, you know, briefly were suspects. Then they began thinking that she may have been a lesbian. And so her roommate must have been a jealous because she was friends with some other woman. So they had all of these theories that just basically came out of nowhere. And. But they were investigated both by the police and also in the press, because these reporters are out there trying to dig up their own. Their own material.

[Kate Lister]

Were any of them viable, or did they all get ruled out pretty quick?

[William Mann]

Yeah, some of Them seemed more viable because especially the last person had seen Elizabeth alive, who had dropped her off at Biltmore. So he was investigated. There was a manhunt for him, and then he was exonerated. But, yeah, some of them seemed like very good leads at the time. I talked to the family of the original detectives and. And they both said to me that there was the constant believe that the answer was right around the corner because they kept getting these leads that seemed to be legitimate and viable, and then they pursue it, and they turn out to lead nowhere. So this happened in January. By March and April, they're starting to run out of leads.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with William after this short break.

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[Hank]

Hey, Sal.

[Carvana Customer]

Hank. What's going on? We haven't worked a case in years.

[Hank]

I just bought my car at Carvana and it was so easy. Too easy.

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Think something's up?

[Hank]

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[Carvana Customer]

It sounds like Carvana just makes it easy to buy your car, Hank.

[Hank]

Yeah, you're right. Case closed.

[Kate Lister]

Buy your car today. On car. Delivery fees may apply. I feel the same way that the police do in the early beginning. It's like, how could. How could you not have solved that? How could you not have figured out that out? It was so extraordinary. Surely there must be somebody somewhere running around Hollywood covered in blood and howling at the moon. That must. Yes, you would think, where is this person?

[William Mann]

Yeah. What? You would think. And because, you know, the work, the grisly work of bisecting the body and draining the blood would leave some trace somewhere. And, you know, people. People said, well, it must have been done in a bathtub. You know, so all of the motels that had bathtubs were searched. You know, hotels, motels, apartment buildings, trailer parks. They were all searched. And there was no. No sign of blood. And to give the LAPD their due, at least on this is they had the most state of the art scientific lab in the country. And the police scientist was very good at detecting blood, even the slightest speck of blood, and found nothing. And when he would find blood, it would turn out that had nothing to do with Elizabeth Short.

[Kate Lister]

Didn't somebody write in letters claiming to be from the killer?

[William Mann]

Yes, indeed, there was a Package of Elizabeth's belongings. So basically, what she had been carrying in her purse when she was killed,

[Kate Lister]

that really was the killer?

[William Mann]

Yes, yes. Well, people have assumed it was the killer, and I think it's a likelihood that it was the killer. But the police never officially confirmed that because all it said was, here are belongings from Elizabeth Short. Now, it could have been somebody who found her purse. It could have been somebody who knew about the killing, you know, so we don't know. But the killer. It seems likely that the killer was the one to do that because of the. It fits with the grandiose display of the body in the vacant lot. And now here it is again. Now I'm sending you her materials. It was her address book and her birth certificate and, you know, some photographs of her mother. So it's heartbreaking, but those were. Those were vital pieces of evidence for the.

[Kate Lister]

For the detectives to use, and they sent them in. Was it to the police or to the press?

[William Mann]

They sent it to the press, actually. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Wow. Wow. And that led nowhere?

[William Mann]

No, it helped flesh out her life and her movements because we. You know, there's so many names in the address book, and we. When they chase them down and. And then I did that as well as my book, as I did deeper dives onto all of the people that were in. In her address book. And it's. You know, it gives us a more complete picture of her, her last four or five months.

[Kate Lister]

But no, nothing. No.

[William Mann]

But nothing for the killer? No.

[Kate Lister]

God, that's so frustrating, isn't it? That's it. So they find her belongings, and I'm guessing after a while, the story just starts to fade from the prep. Starts to fade?

[William Mann]

That's right.

[Kate Lister]

Did it ever get closed? Like, did the police ever close the case?

[William Mann]

No. In fact, a couple years later, there's a new attempt to find the killer, and it completely goes off the rails. And so the district Attorney's office has to step in and they reinvestigate the case. Those records are available to us, very comprehensive records from the District Attorney. But the records of the Los Angeles Police Department are still held under lock and key because it's technically still an open case, which is bizarre. 80 years later, everybody suspects witnesses, everybody is dead. The families are dead. But it's still technically an open case. So perhaps there's something in those files that would tell us something.

[Kate Lister]

Was there any other crimes like this that would fit a pattern that we found with the advantage of, you know, online research and things like that? Now that you can join up police Investigations, Anything like that?

[William Mann]

Yeah, I mean, it's, there had been a case in about 10 years earlier, 12 years earlier in San Diego of a similar mutilation case, but it had nothing that was specifically linked to the Dalia case. And I've talked to a number of detectives who looked at all these cases and they said there's really nothing, the signature is different in these cases. You know, there's nothing we can compare to the Black Dahlia case. I do, you know, in the book, I do speculate on who might have done this, and there, there is some kind of circumstantial evidence about that. But until we get records from the lepd, if and when that ever happens, we, we're not ever going to be able to confidently, confidently say that.

[Kate Lister]

Who do you think may have done it? Of all the, the people in the, in the frame for this. Yeah. Bearing in mind it's circumstantial.

[William Mann]

It's circumstantial. Yeah. Well, given, you know, given the few things we know about the killer, that they had some kind of surgical experience to be able to do this, and they had this sort of rage and resentment at the world. We know that because of the display of the body and the severity of the killing. There's only one person that fits both of those in Elizabeth's life. And he was a suspect early on. He had been a boyfriend and apparently Elizabeth had broken up with him so she could move back in with the wealthy guy, which probably didn't leave him very happy. But he had also been in the, in the army and had surgical training. He worked, he was in Okinawa and, you know, saw some fierce fighting and saw a lot of blood and bodies being pulled apart. And he was, you know, he was in the operating room on there. So he has the qualities, you know, he was discharged with a 50 psychiatric disability. The, the psychiatrist said he has a lot of rage and, you know, could potentially dangerous. So he is, he is a possibility. But of course, I, I, I, when I set out to write this book, I wanted to write about Elizabeth. I was more interested in finding the victim than finding the killer. So, you know, I don't claim to have solved it. I think that's kind of hubristic at this point, but, but I do think that he's a very possible candidate.

[Kate Lister]

Why do you think that this story has been mythologized the way that it has? Because unfortunately, murders are ten a penny young people going to Hollywood, losing their way, coming into danger and being hurt. That's not a new story. Why this one?

[William Mann]

I think it's because, first of all, it's because of the name the Black Dahlia that the press puts on Elizabeth Short. And so that's very, you know, sexy and mysterious. It fits right into the film noir, which. The first film noirs come out the year of Elizabeth's murder. And you can see shadows of her story in so many of those films, and sometimes, obviously, sometimes more implicitly. And so it kind of seeps into the public consciousness. In many ways, Hollywood is a place where dreams come true, but it's also a place where dreams are shattered. And so Elizabeth's story becomes perfect for that part of the mythology of Hollywood. You know, see what happens when innocent young girls go to Hollywood. They can be destroyed by the. You know, even though Elizabeth wasn't there to become a movie star or anything, but she fits that narrative, and it becomes almost a trope in telling Hollywood stories. And I think that's why this story just endures, because she becomes part of the cultural understanding of Hollywood and of Los Angeles. You know, she gets forgotten. Elizabeth Short gets forgotten, but the Black Dahlia remains. A few years after the killing, the Black Dahlia has now become just this nebulous, scary phantom. And some people actually mistake the killer for the Black Dahlia. So they, well, watch out. The Black Dahlia will get you, too, you know, so, you know, the young woman has been completely lost and been subsumed into this fictional mythological character.

[Kate Lister]

So as a final question, then, as somebody that has researched Elizabeth's life, her short life, how do you think she would want to be remembered? Because no one wants to be remembered as a murder victim, do they? That's awful.

[William Mann]

Yeah, I think. I think it's important to, you know, listen to her friends and her family who described her after the death. I saw letters from her sister who remembered her as being very kind. She had a soft spot for stray dogs. She would always adopt stray dogs, bring them into the house. Her mother would say, you can't do that. You had asthma. You know, she was very kind to a little girl in the neighborhood who had been sexually assaulted. And the town wasn't sure how to treat this little girl. And Elizabeth went over there and said, come on, let's go to the movies. And that meant so much, the little girl, that she wrote about it years later. So she was very kind, and she was very compassionate, but she also had adventure. She wanted to have an adventure in her life. There's a letter she wrote to her fiance, who I mentioned was the air flyer in the war in the Army Air Force with the Flying Tigers. And he wrote her a letter describing all his exploits in the air and how exciting it was to zip around in this airplane. And Elizabeth replies to him and she says, I'd like to fly, too. And when I read that line, I said, that's not just about her wishing she could be a pilot. You know, she wanted to. She wanted that experience of seeing the world and exploring the world on her own and on her own terms. So I think that's how she'd want to be remembered, that she was an explorer and an adventurer and a curiosity seeker. I just, I think that's what defines her most.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. Oh, William, thank you so much. You've been marvelous to talk to and you've really helped give life and flesh out this often forgotten person in the history of Hollywood. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

[William Mann]

I have a website, williamjman.com and on Instagram, I'm thereal Mr. Man.

[Kate Lister]

Fabulous. And give us the title of the book again.

[William Mann]

Black Dahlia. Murder, Monsters and Madness at Mid Century Hollywood.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you so much. You've been fantastic.

[William Mann]

Thank you.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to William for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to, like, review and follow along whatever it is you get. Your podcasts. Coming up, we're gonna be hearing about the golden age of Hollywood's first sex symbols, as well as taking you back to ancient Rome to Tiberius's island of depravity. And if you'd like us to explore a subject or if you wanted to say hello, then you can email [e-mail] this podcast was edited by Hannah Feodorov and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Freddie Chick. Join me again Betwixt the sheets. The history of sex scandal in society, A podcast by History Hit foreign.

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[William Mann]

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