← Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
The Murderous Affairs of King James
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- [00:00]
Kate Lister
Hi, I'm your host Kate Lister. If you would like betwixt the sheets ad free and get early access, sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every single week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.
- [00:27]
Hannah Berner
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- [01:22]
Jane Marie
I have this nightmare that I never finished college or that someone's going to find out that I don't have the qualifications for this job and I'm fraud. Hi, I'm Jane Marie, host of the Dream, and that's a clip from my appearance on Mind if We Talk, a new podcast from Better Help that demystifies what therapy is really about and is here to remind us all that whatever we're going through, we're never alone. I recently sat down with host and licensed therapist Jesu Jo to talk about Imposter Syndrome, where I shared a bit more about my experience with feeling inadequate or not worthy of my job, motherhood, being a girlfriend, and of course because this is therapy, we offer solutions. I'm sure a lot of you can relate to those kinds of feelings. I can't wait for you to hear it, to listen to the rest of our conversation and hear other guests explore struggles we all face in life. Listen and subscribe to Mind if We Talk? Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:17]
Gareth Russell
My husband and I recently realized that neither of us were getting the sleep we deserved, so we sat down and talked about our ideal beds for him, so soft as feathers for me, firm as a plank this would be a huge issue if it weren't for the Sleep Number Smart Bed. Thankfully, with our new Sleep Number Smart Bed, we can each dial in our desired sleep number settings to our ideal comfort and finally get the sleep we deserve. Plus, the climate series feature makes sure our bed stays nice and cool through the warm summer months. Why choose a Sleep Number Smart Bed? So you can choose your ideal comfort on either side. And now it's the Sleep Number Everything Smart Bed sale. Every Smart Bed and base are on sale during our Memorial Day event. Up to 50% off limited time. Exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details.
- [03:10]
Kate Lister
Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are listening to Betwixt the Sheets. And we like to get mucky about history around here. And because we do, I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. And we have to keep telling you that in case you have A forgotten or B a newbie has wandered in completely unaware and is going to clutch their pearls and go running to their mum to tell tales. Right, on with the show. King James VI of Scotland was a very smart man with a very snazzy beard. It has to be said he was a prolific writer of everything from political theory to sonnets, and of course, his mad, mad ramblings on witchcraft, which was a best seller. He spoke French and Latin fluently, as well as English, which was his second language after Scots. But apparently, and as we will learn today, his sense of logic and reason could all be swept away by one beautiful man in a kilt. All joking aside, though, his love of a beautiful twink didn't half get him into some sticky situations. And not the fun kind. Right, kilts and ruffs at the ready. Let's do it.
- [04:32]
Jane Marie
What are you a funny man?
- [04:33]
Hannah Berner
Oh, money.
- [04:34]
Jane Marie
Of course you're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.
- [04:37]
Kate Lister
I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing a button. Now.
- [04:47]
Gareth Russell
ERA.
- [04:50]
Jane Marie
Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, my beautiful D. Goodness had nothing.
- [04:55]
Kate Lister
To do with it, dearie. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Caitla St. As we've explored before on this podcast, 16th and 17th century Scotland was a hell of a place. You got the execution of Mary Queen of Scots and King James, uniting the English and Scottish crowns and the witch trials were kicking off. But what is less well known about King James Rise to Power was a rather brutal murder carried out by the man said to be the most handsome man in all of Scotland and firm favourite of King James. Joining me today to take us into this world of sex, murder, intrigue and kilts is the fantastic and the utterly wonderful Gareth Russell, who has just published a biography of King James. So there really is nobody better to be telling us about this man and his favorites. Are you ready to do this? I'm ready to do this. Let's do it. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, it's only Gareth Russell. How are you doing?
- [06:05]
Jane Marie
Very well. I'm very happy to be back.
- [06:07]
Kate Lister
You must be riding high on the success of your book, which I have right here. Nobody can see it, but. But I can. And it is. This is a chunky beast.
- [06:15]
Jane Marie
She is a chunky queen.
- [06:17]
Kate Lister
She certainly is. Full title, Queen James, the Life and Loves of Britain's First King.
- [06:23]
Jane Marie
Yeah. Wow. Yeah, it was. I loved writing it and I've been. Yeah, I mean, it's been very, very lovely the way it's landed since it's come out. People seem to. I mean, I'm very grateful. And it was. It was one of those books, rare books, that when you were finished, you could have kept going. Usually at the end, you think, get this away from me. This is a. Consumed my life like an Aztec sacrifice. And instead, it's just. It was something that I was so interested in. I loved writing about him. And with James, there was so many things in his life he thought this could have been a book on its own. Remarkable.
- [06:59]
Kate Lister
What brought you to him? Do you know? Like what. Do you remember what point you thought, I need to write about James. Just for anyone listening, James who? James the first of England and Sixth of Scotland. That James?
- [07:12]
Jane Marie
Yeah, that James. So that. It was two things, sort of. The first was I'd written at the palace, which I've been on just to talk about here before, about Hampton Court. And it was. The premise was different chapter, different room, different person, different decade. But three of the chapters were set when James was in residence at Hampton Court. And I remember doing a lot of the reading around it for that book and thought, oh, there's so much here. But I can't really follow him or his wife after they leave Hampton Court. And I'd finished it and I was introduced by another friend to the novelist Elizabeth Freemantle, who, a lot of people will know, have written some brilliant books about Catherine Parr. That became the movie Firebrand. But she's also written some really excellent novels about the 17th century, including one about James's favorite, Robert Carr. And I was sort of saying, oh, you know, I loved writing about him. And it was in that conversation that she said, it's time for a biography that kind of looks at James through the prism of the men he loved in the way we get such rich books about Henry VIII and the six women he loved. And do you think. I think you're the one to do it. So that after she said that sort of solidified that desire to go back. So it was two things. It was really a comment from a friend and the previous book. So that's how I ended up stalking James for two years.
- [08:30]
Kate Lister
I think that we can say quite comfortably now that James was at least bisexual. This is one of the things that throughout the history of James has been. People sort of politely skirted round it, or they referred to his favorite, or they kind of. They just didn't talk about it at all. But we're now thankfully in a place where we can go, no, that was his boyfriend.
- [08:51]
Jane Marie
Yeah, I think there's. It's sort of an Occam's Rizzer kind of thing, which is that you have to contort intellectually, like into almost acrobatic levels of flexibility to explain some of the letters away. And there are others, particularly the more erotic ones or the more romantic ones, where it is absolutely impossible to reach any other conclusion. I mean, the best, and I use best again at a stretch counter explanation, is that the ones between him and the Duke of Buckingham were jokes, which I. Which is. Yeah, it's not great and it's just not very tenable as a theory.
- [09:28]
Kate Lister
If you accept that there's still a whole load of other favourites that he had. You can't say, like, they were all jokes.
- [09:35]
Jane Marie
Yeah, that's exactly it. And also, like, there's one where Buckingham talk about essentially James giving him a handjob. There's just no way to explain that because it's actually. Because it's not a. Kind of like if he was. Maybe I don't like rugby drinks today and someone made the joke, it would be an outright joke. He's kind of couched it in this way that you have to read it two times to realize what he's saying. It's not an out on out joke, but how he puts it is he writes a letter of thanks to James for how the motion of his hand the night before had proved what lay in his heart. And that by Buckingham took greater satisfaction from James Hand doing that than his own hand doing it. And he hopes he can reciprocate the favor. It's not ambiguous, but it's not funny in the way it's hilariously funny. No, it's not exactly. And I completely agree. I sort of say at the end of the book that when I talk a little about the terminology, if I had to put my money on a kind of Kinsey scale bet with James, I would say bisexual, with an overwhelming preference for his own gender, which can happen. And I think, you know, I think very obviously he was capable of performing sexually with his wife. I don't think he find. I don't think he found women repulsive. I just don't think the passions of his life were ever with women. I think no.
- [10:59]
Kate Lister
There were no mistresses, were there?
- [11:01]
Jane Marie
No, there's one really brief one. And I sort of say in the book, look, I think it's possible that something happened, sort of. This is around 1595, so not too long after what we're talking about today. Her name was Anne Murray and she was a lady in waiting to Anna of Denmark. Anna ends up hating her, which I think maybe suggests there was something. And the English ambassador was under the impression for about three weeks in the summer of 1595 that James might be sleeping with this woman. But what was quite interesting was when I was doing a Q and A about the book, Minnie Dinshel, who's written a book about the English Civil War recently, he was talking about it and he said, I don't try to force the reader's hand in what the conclusion is. I just think, for me, something might have happened. And interestingly, Minnie said when he read it and kind of read the evidence, he thought it looked like James kind of showing off too much, and he thought it was like it was protesting too much. It didn't convince him at all that he thought he was kind of. At this point, he's having a bit of tension with Anna in the marriage over how to raise their eldest son. That is a pretty convincing counter explanation to my conclusion, which is that, did James just use Anne Marie to annoy Anna? It's perfectly possible. He writes a poem about her that seems to, I think, imply a sexual relationship, which could be that protesting too much or it could be sincere. But apart from that, no, no one else.
- [12:24]
Kate Lister
And the main loves of his life that he writes about, speaks about is quite open, like, shockingly open, actually, about. They're all men.
- [12:33]
Jane Marie
They are. And Writing the book, I think one of the things I started with, that I was quite keen to avoid if I could, was I did not want this to be a book about James in which Scotland's a prologue. That can happen with biographies of James because he became king of England and Ireland in 1603. But he did spend over half his life only in Scotland, and luckily just over half the book ends up being about his Scottish life. But my concern was that there would be so much more firm evidence for the later English favorites like Robert Carr and George Villiers. And so what I was. I had sort of a set of criteria in my head, like what makes the cut of acceptable proof. And I was quite surprised to find that while there aren't the really long letters that you will see with Buckingham and Somerset later, you do see his first romantic letter written when he's about 21. You see the first speculation about his sexuality outright when he's 17, and you see a general acceptance in the court that he is sleeping with men when he's about 20, 21. It was interesting to have a good variety of sources about it, but what I tried to do was only accept either, obviously, sources from James himself or people within the household rather than the court extended, because that is where gossip, I think, becomes misleading.
- [13:59]
Kate Lister
We could do an entire episode on how gay was James, and I hope that you would come back to do that. But we are actually here to talk about a murder. Yes, a murder that. It is famous in historian circles, but I don't think it's reached sort of the general public in the way that. What was Mary Queen of Scots husband Darnley, when he got stabbed, or Rizzio or anything like this. So this is a murder of. Am I going to pronounce his name right? Mouret?
- [14:32]
Jane Marie
Murray. Yeah, yeah, I got that wrong.
- [14:33]
Kate Lister
Murray.
- [14:34]
Jane Marie
I knew.
- [14:34]
Kate Lister
I tried to give it a French lilt.
- [14:36]
Jane Marie
I did the audiobook for this a week before was like, oh, wit. I have to record myself pronouncing all of these names. And I was like, I did the.
- [14:45]
Kate Lister
Same thing to myself.
- [14:46]
Jane Marie
I mean, it's. I mean, there are some words that will not be appearing in future books. Say goodbye to the word remunerate, because after 17 takes, it's banished. But I was slightly. I got really concerned that I would have sort of like Northern Irish or like Ulster hubris and think, I've got this, we're close enough. So I spent about. I spent a few days making sure I got it. I wasn't pronouncing it how a Northern Irish person would, because they're similar, but sometimes they're different. So, yeah, it's Murray, but it's spelt M O R A Y Murray Murray.
- [15:21]
Kate Lister
Okay, who can you introduce the cast of characters? Tell us, set it up. It's a murder mystery. And who is he and how is he involved in James.
- [15:31]
Jane Marie
With James. So this is. It's like. I'll set up like a good Poirot mystery. There is. You'll start with.
- [15:36]
Kate Lister
I love a Poirot.
- [15:37]
Jane Marie
Oh, so do I. It's February. It's a cold February in 1592. And the young Earl of Murray, who he's about 27, all the main participants, Murray, Huntley and James, are ballpark the same age. They're between about 25, 26 and 29. And Murray is nicknamed, in Edinburgh, the Bonnie Earl of Murray. He's said to be sort of the best looking man in the Scottish aristocracy.
- [16:07]
Kate Lister
Ooh, hello.
- [16:07]
Jane Marie
And our other participant, the Earl of Huntly, is the second best looking man in the Scottish aristocracy. So it's. It's a battle of the beefcakes. So, 1592, particularly February 1592, Scotland is still in the long shadow of the North Berwick Witch Trials. They've not yet collapsed and Murray is on James's radar because James believes, and he's correct, that Murray has become far too friendly with the new Earl of Bothwell. James, cousin on the illegitimate side of things. And Bothwell is immensely powerful, very influential and very ambitious. And during the North Berwick Witch Trials, one of the things that emerged was that Bothwell was allegedly the mastermind behind the coven that had been plotting to kill the King. And it's that. That turns James.
- [17:04]
Kate Lister
Well, that's a plot twist.
- [17:05]
Jane Marie
Yeah. So that was one of the things that really surprised me working on the book, which is that initially when the North Berwick witch trial started, James thought they were nonsense and was not convinced of. Did he? Yeah. So he thought it was ludicrous. And his argument was perfectly logical, which was. But you've got this from torture. So of course they told you they were guilty because they wanted you to stop. And his Danish in laws have started their own witch hunt and they are saying, no, no, it's real. And the kirk, the Presbyterian Church in Scotland, particularly under the leadership of Andrew Melville, who succeeds John Knox, is convinced that the King is morally lackluster and that there are clearly satanic influen influences at play in Scottish politics. And James is doing nothing to stop them. And so Melville organizes a series, a sort of round robin sermons from the ministers of the church, including when the King goes to church to tell him that he's being lackluster in his duty. And James offers to question some of the suspects himself. And it's one of those fascinating mysteries in history which I think you sort of just have to accept. You can't explain the way I sort of said. And when I'm talking to people and they ask about it is the way I would. I think it's an acceptable comparison, is if you have a friend who believes in tarot card readings and a friend who doesn't, sometimes the friend who believes in it will be able to have told you about a very specific reading. And whether that's cold reading or whether you believe it's real is sort of irrelevant for the. For this purposes, but either is possible. And during James questioning of them, two of the main suspects, a woman called Agnes Sampson and a man called Richard Graham, both refused to retract their confession. And I think the psychology of false confessions is probably fascinating there. But James tells them that he doesn't really believe them. And Agnes, who I think. I mean, the torture inflicted on her before she gets to James had been really just absolutely horrific. And she insists that she is. And she whispers something in his ear that allegedly he'd said to his wife, Anna of Denmark, on their wedding night. And James is converted and is convinced it's real. But Richard Graham and Agnes both testify that their coven is being controlled by Lord Bothwell, who plots to kill the King and the Queen through necromancy and take the throne for himself. Because on his father's side, he is an illegitimate grandson of King James Van. And I think he's always been a bit ambitious, a bit pushy, and James II has never really liked or trusted him. And this confirms his worst fears. And it's sort of that environment of when in a conspiracy, circumstances become clues. So the fact that Bothwell's manservant Rinian is friends with the merchant who's confessed. Oh, that must be the link to.
- [20:01]
Kate Lister
All very paranoid, isn't it?
- [20:02]
Jane Marie
It is, really is. And. And that it has been a season of terrible weather. And I think, you know, try to remember. I try to remember when I was.
- [20:10]
Kate Lister
It's all the proof I need.
- [20:11]
Jane Marie
Yeah, absolutely. I was like, it's Satanic. I'm cold.
- [20:14]
Kate Lister
Right, Satanic. That's it. See, I always had the idea that James was properly gung ho about witches, that it was one of his stranger personality quirks, that this quite learned, educated man, for some reason just got a Real hard on for witches and started executing people. So it's interesting that you're saying that's not quite right. He had to be led down this road.
- [20:38]
Jane Marie
Yeah. And that, to me, made it more terrifying. It actually became slightly more frightening to think there was someone who had what we had, the skeptics charter of why these confessions can't be trusted and why you should be a little bit more careful and all the rest of it. And yet in the dark, in an atmosphere of fear, he was led to do things that were reprehensible and. And quite interestingly, I mean, I didn't know until I worked on the book that in 1616, he intervened and shut witch hunts down. So you see him later in his life, almost go full circle back to where he had been. But it takes a long time for maybe I. Maybe that's psychological as well. That element of if you've done it, you almost can't bring yourself to accept it was wrong because then you have to start to look at your sin, your culpability. So the Earl of Bothwell is detained at Edinburgh Castle, but he manages to overpower his guards, scale the walls and escape, and he goes on the run. And James is genuinely quite terrified that Bothwell will be using both magic and malice to stage a rebellion. And he becomes even more paranoid and isolated because several people closest to him start to try to talk him out of the witch hunt. So his wife, Queen Anna, his second cousins, he sort of treats him almost like a brother. Ludovic, the Duke of Lennox and his former love, Alexander Lindsay, all come to him and try to point out to him that they think this obsession with the witch hunts, but particularly with the Earl of Bothwell's role in it, has led him to make some unwise decisions. And James loses his mind. I mean, Alexander Lindsay had never been anything but loyal, had actually sort of sacrificed his own happiness to make James happy. Really good person, I think, from the sources that I could read, and I found their relationship very sweet. And it was sad that it ends with James. James had ended it just before the marriage, but he says, so you're betraying me too. At one point, he's screaming at Anna so intensely that she starts crying. He starts crying, really. James is a man by his own admission. He says later it consumed his life. And with Bothwell on the run, James initially suspects that Bothwell has crossed the border to England. And he writes to Elizabeth I and says if that vile man is in England under the terms of the treaty they'd signed in 1586 she is to extradite him back. And Elizabeth writes back and says, perfectly honestly, I will if he's here, but I can see no evidence at all that he is in England. I think he might still be in Scotland. And she was right. And there are these odd moments between James and Elizabeth where sort of like the trade unions of monarchy kick in and their personal gripes are dropped and they start g genuine advice to each other. And treason is usually where they do help one another. So James starts to wonder, if Bothwell is on the run, who's hiding him? And he is being moved from home to home off friendly aristocrats in the Lowlands.
- [23:41]
Kate Lister
Why are they friendly to him if he's a nasty witch that's run off and traitorous, why? Why would people help him?
- [23:48]
Jane Marie
I think part of its family ties, a lot of them have links to the Hepburns, his mother's family, and also that quite a few of them just aren't convinced this is real. They think the King, like, I mean, if even the Queen is starting to try to tell him, you've gone too far in this.
- [24:05]
Kate Lister
Calm down. Let's take a minute.
- [24:06]
Jane Marie
Yeah, have a peppermint tea, relax. We're good.
- [24:08]
Kate Lister
Yeah, we'll just some deep breaths here.
- [24:11]
Jane Marie
Yeah, yeah. But Jeems becomes convinced that one of the aristocrats hiding Bothwell is the Bonnie Earl of Moray.
- [24:19]
Kate Lister
Okay, why did he think that? What's his evidence? Is this just pointing at people now and just going, you're doing it, you're doing it too. Do you have any evidence of this?
- [24:27]
Jane Marie
Yeah, so that's a great question because I think what made to your earlier point about what makes it more frightening with these witch hunts is that actually there's always a kernel of truth. There's always. That's what makes it more frightening. And Murray had always been quite sympathetic to Bothwell and he had backed him up in minor quarrels at court and different positions in the Privy Council. Bothwell had served as Lord High Admiral before the witch hunt and Murray had been a big supporter of him. And they were friendly, genuinely friends as well. And Murray is one of the few aristocrats who at court is openly defending Bothwell. So James.
- [25:07]
Kate Lister
Well, that'll do it.
- [25:08]
Jane Marie
Yeah, that'll do it. So James and also, you know, Murray's sort of James and Murray had gone on quite well before James had jousted at Murray's wedding.
- [25:17]
Kate Lister
Is James any of these people boyfriend? Is there any sexual history? Is this an ex that like, you know, that you've just Got the power to go witch. You're a witch.
- [25:26]
Jane Marie
So the. No, the ex isn't killed. The ex is the killer in this. Oh, hello. Yeah, so, yeah, welcome to the double plot twist. So, right, continue. James is. James starts to really try to find a way to get the Earl of Murray knocked out of politics, or at least to admit that he has been hiding. Bothwell Murray has substantial lands in the northeast of Scotland, but they're not the largest set of lands. So the most dominant family in the north are Clan Gordon. And the head of Clan Gordon is the second best looking man in the aristocracy. George Gordon Sichtharlof Huntly. And before I started Queen James, I was under the impression that James had had a sort of unreciprocated crush on Lord Huntley.
- [26:13]
Kate Lister
Okay.
- [26:14]
Jane Marie
But two, three or four, actually, to be honest. But two core pieces of evidence from 1587 and 1588 changed my mind. And I do think that they were sleeping together in the autumn of 1587. So hot and hardy. Huntley, as he's known, is a very skilled warrior, very charismatic. You sort of get the impression of a bit of rough aristocratic, but yeah, yeah, sort of, you know, terrifying. I know the time. Yeah. There were times where I was looking at it and thought, well, I don't know what you could do in bed. But I have to assume it was impressive. So Huntley is the first relationship with James where there is a direct source from James to Huntly that is openly romantic. So Huntley, as I say, had a lot of land in the Highlands. So he splits his time between court and the estates and James writes a letter to him when he's 21, Huntley's 24, 25, and Huntley's just left for the Highlands. And James says, I may see, swear upon my soul to you that since the moment you have left my side, I have not had one second unthinking of you, except when I am asleep and scarcely even then.
- [27:24]
Kate Lister
Wow.
- [27:24]
Jane Marie
Which is so platonic.
- [27:27]
Kate Lister
Yeah, so just. Just good friends. Everybody just flatmates.
- [27:30]
Jane Marie
So. And the other, what was a really interesting source was someone who knew them well, didn't like Huntley. Huntley was Catholic, and they would have used the phrase lying in in a way that we would use sleeping with. So it technically has a different meaning. But this source is quite close to both of them. And he made a joke about, yes, Huntley's a Catholic, but I think he would rather be lying in a woman's chamber than lying in the King's. So the pun that he's saying is, I think he'd rather be sleeping with a woman, but his best interests are served by sleeping with the King. And I think it was a very.
- [28:07]
Kate Lister
Brief pay for pay.
- [28:08]
Jane Marie
Yeah, essentially. And it did pay. And I think now Hundley and James will remain friendly for the rest the of of their lives, I think, you know. And Huntley commits a bit of an oopsie. Who hasn't? In that? Just after James's treaty with Elizabeth, Huntley, who has never really forgiven Elizabeth for ordering the execution of a Scottish queen, sends letters to Philip II and says, FYI, apropos of nothing, I have deep water ports in my estate, so if you ever have for any reason a sort of large fleet that maybe wants to make landfall in the British Isles and go knocking in England, come with. And James is furious at this and says, you know what? If that had happened, the treaty would have collapsed, foreign policy would have imploded. Elizabeth would have had every justification to declare war on us for what we had done. And Huntley is detained at Edinburgh Castle and asks for permission to explain himself in person. James says no, and then eventually says yes. And when he arrives in the room, James falls on him, kissing him, to the astonishment of many, and then asks him to spend the night. And the next morning tells a thoroughly unimpressed Council of Scotland, I've changed my mind. He's innocent. He didn't do anything. Which is why I was like, I don't know what you can do in bed. But it's.
- [29:29]
Kate Lister
He did something.
- [29:30]
Jane Marie
It's armada defeating. So it's. So Huntley is someone who James. And this will play into the murder we're talking about. Huntley is allowed to get away with things that nobody else would. Even long after, I think the evidence I could find of a sexual relationship has fizzled out quite amicably.
- [29:50]
Kate Lister
Whatever he was doing, he did it well.
- [29:52]
Jane Marie
He did it very well. We're about three years out from this by the time things are coming to a boil. And Huntley has since married James second cousin, Henrietta Stewart. And Henrietta is an impressive figure in the way James wife Anna is impressive. She's French, brought up French. Although she's Stuart, she's very beautiful, very charming. She has that quality of glamour that I think is underestimated in history and in politics. It can do things to people. She's also extremely intelligent and she. When she first arrives in Scotland, I think she's a bit overwhelmed. Overawed as a teenager, anyone sort of moving to a new country would be. And she had Gone along with, you know, attending Presbyterian services to please the King. And eventually, a year or two after her marriage, she said, actually, I'm not. Not going to do that anymore. I'm a Catholic. And that's it. And she becomes a very as conscious of Huntly. Henrietta is a really effective voice for the dwindling number of Scottish Catholics. And Scotland at this time, I think, is effectively federalism through feudalism. The aristocracy still has an immense amount of influence in the countryside, and two of the families who've sworn loyalty traditionally to Clan Gordon are the Macintoshes and the Grants. And they have converted to Protestantism. And feeling quite alienated by the Catholicism being practiced by the Earl and Countess, they try to switch allegiance to another family in the north, which is the Earl of Murrays.
- [31:21]
Kate Lister
It's all very dramatic, isn't it?
- [31:23]
Jane Marie
It's all very. It's all very Westerosi. I enjoy it.
- [31:26]
Kate Lister
It's very Game of Thrones, isn't it?
- [31:28]
Jane Marie
It is. It's really exciting and unusual, I think, to see feudalism actually work that clearly. It really does. In Scotland, it does seem to function. And the only thing that makes it a little tricky from a historian's perspective is the bonds of loyal, like the subsidiary families and the core clan, are so intense that some of the subsidiary families change their name to the clan's name. So trying to. Sometimes you'll see, like a Captain Gordon who turns up in this, and you think, is that a relative or is that simply a very loyal tenant or follower? But the transfer of allegiance of the Grants and the Macintoshes to the Earl of Murray, who offers to kind of protect them and take them in, leads to a deterioration of relations between Huntley and Murray. And the families had never liked each other. Murray's always trying to make himself the most powerful family in the north of Scotland at the expense of the Gordons. And his mother is a member of Clan Campbell, who are the third most powerful family. So there are two very powerful Protestant families in the north and one extremely powerful Catholic family. They've been pushed sort of like tectonic plates. It's only a matter of time before there is an earthquake. And just as this is coming to fruition, this is when James starts to suspect that Murray is hiding Bothwell. And so James and Huntley reconnect over this, and Huntley offers to deal with the problem of Murray, and James wants both of them to come to court and to. First of all, they're forced to sign pledges of peace because there has been sort of attacks on each other's property. There's escalating tensions and violence in the Scottish Highlands. So James asks them both to sign a deed of peace and to come to court, where there. There will be a hearing about what has happened. Murray's going to answer questions about Bothwell. He's going to try to give satisfactory answers to Huntley about protecting two families that technically should be under the protection of.
- [33:28]
Kate Lister
Have they found Bothwell yet? At this point, no.
- [33:30]
Jane Marie
Bothwell is still. Bothwell's still on the. On the lam and he will. With very dramatic. He will come back with flair. But. But Murray goes south in preparation for this meeting, and before the meeting happens, he has sort of a few days to kill. And his mother, the Dowager Lady Dunne, lives in the south of Scotland, near Edinburgh. So he goes to visit her at her castle at Donny Bristol. And for whatever reason, and this is where it started to get really controversial. Huntly and his men surround, lose their temper over something, and they surround Donny, bristle and demand that Murray comes out and surrenders himself.
- [34:14]
Kate Lister
Right.
- [34:15]
Jane Marie
And Murray, well within his rights, it has to be said, says, no, yeah, absolutely not. Today's not the day I die. I'm visiting Mum and one of Huntley's followers, allegedly this Captain Gordon, decides to smoke him out. And they start setting fire to parts of the Donny Bristol estate. And eventually.
- [34:36]
Kate Lister
This doesn't sound sensible.
- [34:38]
Jane Marie
There are. Listen, I mean, there are questions, you know, is everyone wise in hindsight? Sure. But surely there was someone at the time who was like, maybe we don't burn it.
- [34:47]
Kate Lister
Like there's. Using new initiative.
- [34:49]
Jane Marie
Right?
- [34:50]
Kate Lister
And then. And then there's. We thought that we'd set fire to this guy's house when he's on his way to have a visit with the King.
- [34:57]
Jane Marie
Yeah. What could go wrong? I mean, I think it's one of the.
- [34:59]
Kate Lister
What could possibly go wrong with that plan?
- [35:01]
Jane Marie
I mean, listen, snowflakes, who hasn't said fire to your house once or twice?
- [35:06]
Kate Lister
I'll be back with Gareth and James after the. A short break.
- [35:21]
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Jane Marie
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- [36:34]
Gareth Russell
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- [38:32]
Jane Marie
So Murray decides that he he's going to make a run for partly because I don't think he wants his mom mom to end up medium rare. He manages to ride out at speed and actually breaks through the cordon of Huntley. Men around the house, around Donnie bristle, and they give chase and they catch up with him at the coast where he enters into combat with Huntley.
- [38:57]
Kate Lister
And directly with him.
- [38:59]
Jane Marie
Mano a mano. Yeah, mano a mano. And now.
- [39:01]
Kate Lister
Wow, look at that. You don't see that very often.
- [39:03]
Jane Marie
No, it's. I mean, it's proper. I mean, it is. It's kind of. Kind of angry. Chivalry on crack is how I would describe it.
- [39:10]
Kate Lister
It's normally like, I'll get these men to fight these men that you've got and we'll just sit here and. But like they're actually fighting one another.
- [39:17]
Jane Marie
Yeah. And what's interesting about this is that there is discussion later of did other people help Huntley do it? Which would have been an unfair advantage because Murray was essentially on his own at this stage. But then the flip side is if Huntley did it, Huntley killed him. So there's always this gray area of who. Who delivered the killer blow. And I think it was Huntly. And the reason for this is that Lord Murray exits with what I think might be my favorite parting line in history. So bear in mind he's the first, best looking and Huntley's the second. And he says to him, huntley, you've spoiled a face far fairer than your own.
- [40:00]
Kate Lister
Oh, nice. Oh, I like that. That's a bitch burn. That is, isn't it?
- [40:04]
Jane Marie
I'm dead, but I'm still hot is how he's going.
- [40:07]
Kate Lister
Still hotter.
- [40:08]
Jane Marie
Yeah, I'm a 10, you're a 9. See, on the flip side, babes, you.
- [40:13]
Kate Lister
Will never be better looking than me.
- [40:15]
Jane Marie
No, because. Because you. Like, I'm going out at my peak. I've had my glow up, so I've.
- [40:21]
Kate Lister
Left a beautiful corpse.
- [40:22]
Jane Marie
He. And yes, and I mean a flawless segue, because he does leave a beautiful corpse. And we know that because his mother had a painting off it made. And so. Ooh. Yes.
- [40:32]
Kate Lister
Ooh, that's. That's. Okay, Fair enough.
- [40:35]
Jane Marie
Lady Dune is obviously horrified at this. And one of the things she said as well, that has just fired up the suspicions about Bothwell is that Merrys has just named his youngest son Francis, which is the same name as Bothwell. So James is just convinced that he's godfather or something.
- [40:53]
Kate Lister
Hashtag science.
- [40:54]
Jane Marie
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Follow the science. And so Huntley retreats, flees back to Edinburgh, and I think has an idea that this is going to seriously blow up. Also because his. His men had fought with and killed the sheriff of the area who had been trying to guard with.
- [41:13]
Kate Lister
This wasn't the plan. Was this the plan? Was this what he was supposed to do? This doesn't sound like a sensible thing.
- [41:18]
Jane Marie
No. Hot and hardy. Huntley is a man with a temper and it can often get the better of him. And I think, to be honest, reading between the lines and sometimes on the lines, it was one of the things that made him most attractive to James and to a lot of people.
- [41:30]
Kate Lister
But he has a type.
- [41:31]
Jane Marie
He does. And look. But what's thrilling in the bedchamber might be a liability in the battlefield.
- [41:36]
Kate Lister
This is the thing. If you could take James to one side, you just have to say, look, James, you're welcome to have your boyfriends, but please stop basing military strategy and international peace treaties on the twinks that you like. Just stop doing it.
- [41:50]
Jane Marie
I know that he can bend a poker with his bare hands, but he's also set fire to your foreign policy, so you know, they can't mate.
- [41:58]
Kate Lister
James, just behave yourself.
- [42:00]
Jane Marie
You know, the way there's Jim's like a corridor between the council chamber and the bedchamber. Think of that as metaphorical as well as well as architectural. So Huntley goes back and really, you know, in any case, the murder of someone of Murray's prominence would have been a scandal. But what.
- [42:17]
Kate Lister
Yes, it would. Yeah.
- [42:18]
Jane Marie
But what makes it the scandal it becomes is the grief fueled rage of his mother, Lady June. So she retrieves the body, has it embalmed, painted, and she brings it in procession to Edinburgh, crying for justice, justice against Hundley for what he's done. She extracts the bullets with her bare hands and hands them out to family followers as memento morays.
- [42:45]
Kate Lister
Wow. They don't make him like that anymore.
- [42:46]
Jane Marie
No, I was like, when I was writing it, I thought, you know, however crazy you want to take this, I've got your back. I will write it in a way, whatever you want to do, Lady Dune, go ahead and you go bring the drama. So she, she has the Imban corpse displayed at St. Giles Kirk in Edinburgh. She is determined to force James's hand. And Edinburgh erupts with protests about this because they are, first of all, in Edinburgh. There tends to be a fairly vigorous dose of anti Highlander sentiment. And Huntley is, you know, King of the north, as he's called sometimes, which is again Game of Thronesy. There has been lingering resentment even within the court about what Huntley has been allowed to get away with since the time of the armada three years earlier. And Anna's suspicion that, you know, the fact that his wife Henrietta is allowed to continue defending Catholicism because she's related to the King. There's just a lot of people who have different reasons to dislike Huntley. By this point, the first pamphlets have started to appear in Edinburgh about the buggerer King and the fact that the young Queen is not yet pregnant. She will get pregnant the next year, it just hasn't. I mean, I sometimes wonder, actually, did James sort of hold off partly because she was so young? Because when she does conceive, it's fairly regular, but it's after this. But anyway, the first pamphlet's really implying that James can't have sex with women are starting. And because of his favourite's role in killing Murray, the rumor starts that Anna and Murray, the Queen and Lord Murray, had been having an affair. And that's the version of events that's immortalized in a very famous ballad in Scotland called the Bonny Earl Of Murder, which suggests that James was so jealous of her love for Murray that he sent Huntley to kill him. When in fact, the actual shagging that had been happening had been probably between the King and Huntley, not between the Queen and Murray. So James is faced with his marriage being called into question. A link to find sanity, a link to finding Bothwell, is gone. And he also is once again facing accusations that he can't deal with Huntley. When I was telling you about it, you had said, this can't have been the plan. This is insane. Insane. And everyone in Scotland reaches the same conclusion and says, there's no way he would have done this unless James had told him he could do it. And I don't think James had said that.
- [45:09]
Kate Lister
I can see why people would say that.
- [45:12]
Jane Marie
Correct. I think it's so. It's so egregious that even someone with Huntley's aristocratic pedigree, wealth and very, very.
- [45:23]
Kate Lister
Loyal followers and class A blowjob skills.
- [45:27]
Jane Marie
We have to assume. We have to.
- [45:28]
Kate Lister
I mean, we have to assume.
- [45:29]
Jane Marie
I mean, to me, he just was the kind of person who you knew you should not be sleeping with. But you were.
- [45:33]
Kate Lister
Oh, God, I would have had sex with him then. That's my type. That's just awful.
- [45:40]
Jane Marie
I mean, when I was writing it, I thought, yeah, I get it, I get it, I understand.
- [45:43]
Kate Lister
Yeah, yeah. Damn it. God damn it. But, no, but I can see why you'd say that, because it's so insane. The only reason you do it is if he knew he wouldn't get in trouble for doing It.
- [45:53]
Jane Marie
So I think that final part that you just said is exactly it. I think. I don't think James told him to do it because I think James was shrewd enough to know this will blow up badly. But I think Huntley knew if the Armada didn't take me down, this isn't going to. I think he knew that, James. That to me is the sort of how you square the circle. But I completely understand why, given how James had treated Huntley before that people in Edinburgh would have reached the conclusion. Something has to have been. There has to have been a wink, a nudge, a nod, something to tell him. James issues a public proclamation. It's so intense, the speculation in Edinburgh that the King issues a proclamation saying, I had no role in this, I did not tell him to do it. But those unquantifiable powers of attraction or infatuation exert themselves again. And Huntley is imprisoned for a week. Week has a meeting with James and James says, well, look, you know, it was. It was a. It was a jewel that got out of hand, which technically, technically is true of the last segment of it. But setting fire to.
- [47:01]
Kate Lister
Yeah, come on, James.
- [47:03]
Jane Marie
So. And. And poor Lady Doon feels that she's been denied justice, and she has been. And she curses James on her deathbed. So again, she went out as the kind of hero I'd come to expect. The only thing that really pulls focus from this, and I think maybe from James and Huntley, is the fact that the Earl of Bothwell does then reappear, and he does so by.
- [47:26]
Kate Lister
He's taking his time, just come strolling in. Did I miss much?
- [47:29]
Jane Marie
Well, he breaks into the palace in the morning and charges at James and some of his friends let him into the palace. He sort of stages a mini coup. Just before this happens, James turns to him and says, well, you can take my life, but unlike the devil with your soul, you can't take my soul. And Bothwell falls to his knees, hands over his sword and says, if you truly believe after this I am in league with Satan, you can kill me here. He's weeping and said, I have never practiced witchcraft, I've never practiced black magic. And James, I think realizing the palace is surrounded, maybe caught up in the sentiment of the moment, pretends to believe him. And that really is the final collapse of the witch trail trials. But he's always watching Bothwell. And a couple of years later, Bothwell will become involved in another plot. And this time I think he realizes that James will not be pretending to forgive him this time. He'll have him. And Bothwell flees abroad and dies sort of years later in Italy. But that is the only thing that. It's that shock of Bothwell breaking into the palace that pulls focus from the bonny Earl of Murray's death. To me, it's a perfect sort of window into a lot of James, of the sexuality, the role, the favorites could play, the violence that was endemic within the aristocracy at the time, and also what the witch hunts had done to sort of mental and political equilibrium. And Biddy Doone was right. No one is ever really held to account. There is one execution, which is Captain Gordon, the man who may have set the fire. May have, but again, it's still a question. But surely Huntley. All Huntley had to say was, where's he?
- [49:12]
Kate Lister
Where's he gone? Where's he gone to?
- [49:14]
Jane Marie
So Huntley goes back to the Highlands for a bit, has a lovely time. James, I think I look at it as he forgave him for this, but it was almost a case of like, don't push it. I think he saw you're on a.
- [49:25]
Kate Lister
Short fucking leash now.
- [49:26]
Jane Marie
Exactly. And he does. Then. He doesn't abandon his feud with the other Protestant family of the north clan, Count Campbell. And two years later, there are pitched battles between the Battle of Glenlivet in the north, and this time, James sides with the Campbells and actually burns down part of Huntly's castle at New Castle at Strathbogie. So I think what happens after the Murray killing James, is like, don't, please don't fucking push me again with this, because I've taken more than us. Yeah, I really. I don't want more of this. But again, you know, Huntley sort of quite cleverly then bends the knee to James, and James sort of shunts him into political exile for a while. He's kept under detention for a few months this time, then released into the care slash custody of his wife, Henrietta, who James, in fairness to him, absolutely can trust. Despite their different religions, she is first and foremost a Stuart family loyalist, and that's sort she learned that from her father, Esme, and she's very, very determined to stay loyal to the father family. So Huntley retreats from any of these kind of really dramatic actions for a while. But then James's second daughter, Margaret, is born in 1598, and Huntley is invited back to court, where he's elevated to become the first Marquess of Huntley. And also he's the last of all his favorites to die. He dies in 1630. Is it 5. It's 1635 or 1636. 36. Sorry. He is complete hot and hardy. Huntley does not Teflon. I mean, nothing sticks.
- [51:04]
Kate Lister
Wow.
- [51:04]
Jane Marie
So that is, I think, yes. I mean, we can't. I don't think you can downplay just how prominent the Gordons were, but powerful aristocratic families had been like the Hamiltons had been brought to ruin long before in Scotland. And they're even more powerful than the Gordons. I think you see genuinely just what the impact of James's love could be through the case of the Murray killing.
- [51:23]
Kate Lister
Strange feature of him, because in so many other ways, I mean, he's a man of great contradictions anyway. But he seems to have been really smart, like really intellectually curious. He's a very skilled politician, but when there's a pretty boy in the picture, it just all goes out the window completely. I'll be back with Gareth and James after the shot. Break.
- [52:02]
Jane Marie
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- [52:43]
Gareth Russell
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- [53:13]
Hannah Berner
Months.
- [53:13]
Gareth Russell
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- [53:46]
Jane Marie
Actually, the other flip side of it that I found quite fascinating and endearing in A strange way is that like many good political figures, particularly at that time, he becomes a very skilled liar when it comes to politics and government and even I think pretending to be okay with Bothwell when the break into the palace happens, he can sort of hate and wait very well, I think. But where in all that subterfuge falls apart are in these letters to these men where it's as if sometimes you get an impression of could this have been who he would always have been had politics not shaped his life in that way? It's remarkable. But yeah, the Murray killing and also, I mean it's sort of sword's law in history. Poor Anna is left dealing with these insinuations for years that she had been carrying on with dishy Murray and it does cause her quite a bit of problems. She does become very unpopular in Edinburgh partly because of her spending but also because of these rumours. And anytime she has a close friendship, even with James cousin, the Duke of Lennox, these rumours will revive. So it does. It's in a strange way what happens with the Earl of Murray sticks to James and Anna, but not to the Marquis of Huntly.
- [55:01]
Kate Lister
As a final question, and what was for James, what was the legacy of this murder? Because it's interesting to talk about like one particular scandal in the wake of a very turbulent time, especially today, because it feels like there's just one political scandal after another. Like you can't keep up with it at the moment. Every time there's a news alert you're like, oh God, no, no, not another one. But you sort of get a sense of how fast the world can actually move on. Like we're immersed in one scandal that it's, oh, people were planning war atrocities via WhatsApp or whatever it was. And now we're all to the next one and now we're on to the next one and now somebody else is. Da, da, da, da. Did this murder leave a lasting stain on Jane's reputation or did the world move on?
- [55:41]
Jane Marie
Both. I think scandal to me is a self sustaining or self generating climate and we are in a period where we on the one hand, I think hanker for the news to be boring again.
- [55:55]
Kate Lister
God. Yeah, I'm microdosing the news at the moment. It's like I can barely just like look at it and just like, right, okay, okay, someone else.
- [56:01]
Jane Marie
Right. I mean, I also think, I mean in years anthropologists will look back and say it did something to us, we had too much news. It wasn't supposed to be because we had too much news. Yeah, like they shouldn't have been getting it 24 hours a day. They needed time to recover. But I do think scandal and insecurity feed each other. And I don't think it is a coincidence that this happens after a year and a half of political and social chaos because of these witch hunts and the aristocracy all of a sudden feeling that the ground is shifting beneath them all because necromancy and witchcraft allegations in Scotland are no respecters of class. I mean, James V burnt Lady Glamis to death for it. And, you know, it can come for everyone. And James has, you know, James's witch hunts in 1591. There have been very wealthy women, there have been wealthy men, there have been poor men, poor women. It's taking out everyone, you know. So I think that's part of what makes the environment in which the Murray murder happens, happens so unsettled. But I also think it's what makes flares brightly and hotly for a while, and then, like Huntley's temper, it dissipates. But the thing I think that makes it last is the ballad. And the, you know, the earliest records we can find for this Bonnie Earla Murray ballad are the early 17th century, so about a decade after. Now, my gut would tell me it's probably closer to the actual time of the killing, but the fact that it's so popular in the early 17th century suggests that it's still being talked about. And it does leave a stain on James reputation. It doesn't necessarily, outside of the court, lead to further speculation about him and Huntley. It does certainly lead to the suggestion that he's a king capable of double dealing. There's something off in his private life and that all is not what it seems when it comes to these government decisions. So the specifics of it, I think, get swallowed up in that period of scandal, but the memory of it preserved in things like the songs and rumours and discussions, I think it does leave a permanent question mark over James. That means that when other things linked to favorites come out in 15 years time, people already have a framework to go. Ah, that's what that was.
- [58:24]
Kate Lister
Gareth, you have been wonderful to talk to. You've been absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much.
- [58:29]
Jane Marie
No, thanks for having me.
- [58:30]
Kate Lister
People want to know more about you and your work and your fabulous book, which I've just noticed I've got chocolate on. I was reading it this morning and I've got part of an Easter Egg on it. But where can they.
- [58:40]
Jane Marie
So happy. So the book is Queen James the Life and Loves of Britain's first king. It's out now in Britain and Ireland and Australia in audio and hardback. It'll be out as the Six Loves of James I in America in December, and I'm most active on Instagram at.
- [58:57]
Kate Lister
Garth Russell, thank you so much for dropping by. Will you come by again for another chat anytime?
- [59:02]
Jane Marie
I really enjoy it. Thank you very much for having me.
- [59:08]
Kate Lister
Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to Gareth for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you want us to explore a subject or maybe you just fancy saying hi, then you can email us@betwixtoryhit.com Coming up, we've got episodes on the Truth behind the Minus Tour to How to give Birth like a Medieval person with none other than Eleanor Yarniger. This podcast was edited by Tim Arstall and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets the History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.
- [59:54]
Gareth Russell
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