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- [00:00]
Kate Lister
Hello everyone, it's me, your host, Kate Lister. I'm just jumping in before the episode to ask you for a little favor. If you are enjoying betwixt and I hope that you are, we'd love it if you could vote for us for the Listeners Choice Awards at the British Podcast Awards. If you follow the link in the show notes, it should take you to the place you need to go and it would mean the world to us. We were shortlisted last year and the one before that and the one before that. We were so close and it just made us want it even more. I think we can do it this year. Right on with the show.
- [00:38]
Hannah Burner
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- [01:32]
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- [01:54]
Kate Lister
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- [02:03]
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- [02:12]
Kate Lister
Remember to ask for Botox Cosmetic by name. To see for yourself and learn more, visit botoxcosmetic.com that's botoxcosmetic.com hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are you. I am me. And this is betwixt the sheets. So, are we all in the right place? Is everybod they're supposed to be? You're here, I'm here. Right, okay, the guest is here as well. But before we can go further, I do have to tell you, this is an adult podcast spoken by other adults about adulty things and adultery. Wake up and range on subjects. And you speed adult too. That's all designed to keep you safer. I feel safer. Hope you feel safer. Right, on with the show. Strolling around Nazareth in the first century, you'd be forgiven for not knowing that. Well, according to the Bible at least, something pretty seismic is about to go down. It's just a sleepy village of a few hundred people, and one of them happens to be this girl called Mary. She seems nice enough, but boy, oh, boy, is her life about to change. And what I want to know, though, is who was the real Mary? What kind of woman did she grow up to be? And just how difficult would it have been to parent someone who claimed to be the son of God? Yeah, there's no mom's net for that one. I have got just the guest who's going to help us get to know Mary a little bit better.
- [03:43]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
What are you a funny man?
- [03:45]
Hannah Burner
Oh, money.
- [03:45]
Kate Lister
Of course.
- [03:46]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.
- [03:49]
Kate Lister
I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing.
- [04:01]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.
- [04:04]
Kate Lister
Goodness. What beautiful diamond goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, History of Sex Scandal in Society with me, Kate Lister. Virginity is a myth. It is. It's a myth, it's bollocks. It's a social construct. So we'll just get that one out of the way to begin with. You can't test for it, you can't check it. You do not lose something. It's much better to think of it as a sexual debut. But why was the idea of Mary's virginity so important to the Christians in the centuries that followed her life? What does this tell us about the relationship between Christianity and sex? And do we know anything really historical about this woman? Well, joining me today is the rather fabulous author and historian, Sir Dermod McCulloch. And if anyone is going to know the answers to these questions, it's him. But before I can allow you to continue, I can't keep nagging for this. Honestly, Stuart, I feel Terrible. Right, okay. So that's my producer. He says that I've got to. He says I've got to ask this favor of you. They're bored of it, Stu. They know. They know they're supposed to vote for us at the Listeners Choice Awards for the British Podcast Awards. They know. They know that the link is in the show notes. All right, okay, I'll ask them. I'll ask them one more time. We're not doing it again. Please could you vote for us for the British Podcast Awards Listeners Choice Awards. Right, okay. Will that do, Stu? Will that do? He's nodding. Right, okay. On with the show. Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Sir Professor Dermot McCulloch.
- [05:38]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Professor Sir Dermot McCulloch. How about Professor McCulloch? That might simplify things.
- [05:42]
Kate Lister
Do you not like to whip out the Sir? I would.
- [05:45]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Oh, well, if you want to whip out the sir, fine by me.
- [05:49]
Kate Lister
Do you ever use it, like just use it on driving insurance documents?
- [05:52]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
It's just terribly complicated. And it's thanks to a mistake of King Edward vii, who was told that Anglican clergy could not use a knighthood when they were addressed because clergy aren't supposed to kill people. And you see knights do that as part of their occupation. This was totally wrong. But there we are. If you enter a game of Cluedo, you obey all the silly rules. And so I try not to use it myself.
- [06:19]
Kate Lister
That is a fabulous historical nugget and we've only just got going. You were the author of, well, many, many, many books, but for the purposes of this show, the book Lower Than the A History of Sex and Christianity. Dermot, what on earth possessed you to write this book?
- [06:36]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
50 years, well, actually 73 years of being a gay man.
- [06:41]
Kate Lister
There you go, that'll do it.
- [06:42]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
And about 50 years of being a historian. And these two things come together. Very early in my career, a wise old clergyman said to me, well, one day you ought to write a book because you're a historian of the history of sex. And I sort of said, uh huh. But that came back to me after I'd finished a completely different sort of book, a biography of Thomas Cromwell, which I published in 2019, I think it was. Anyway, what was I going to do next? I didn't want to do that sort of book again. I didn't want to do something detailed on Tudor history, looking at bits of parchment, that sort of thing. So I thought, right, I'll do my other thing, which is big, windy generalization books about huge topics and what Better, I thought, than the church and attitudes to sex because it's so absolutely topical in the Christian world and beyond it. Every religion at the moment is now obsessed with the subject of sex and people's genitals, which wasn't the really big consideration in many religions over the years, Christianity included.
- [07:50]
Kate Lister
I often think that if you could get Jesus here and sort of show him around, he'd say, like, why are you so concerned with who's going to the toilet where? That wasn't the point of what I was trying to do.
- [08:01]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Exactly. And on the vexed topic of same sex relations, which exercises all sorts of religions now, Jesus Christ said nothing, nothing whatsoever. And therefore you think, well, is it that important? But now everyone is obsessed by it. You think, what? It's a bad idea burning people alive. But Christians did it for a very long time and they burned people alive mostly for what the bread and wine in the Eucharist meant, or what sort of church government you had, or what the Trinity meant. And now the whole balance has shifted and that needs dealing with.
- [08:40]
Kate Lister
That is strange, isn't it, that that's happened? Because you have. This weird paradox is that a lot of people would think that Christianity is a faith that isn't interested in sex because sort of there's an overriding narrative of like, thou shalt not unless it's in certain circumstances. But when you actually break it down, if you're going around all the time saying, don't have sex, are you having sex? Who's having sex, why are you having sex? Stop having sex, you're thinking about having sex. That's not a group of people who have no issues with sex.
- [09:07]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
No, it isn't. And the thing is that Christianity has a hinterland, a background. It is a Jewish background on the one hand, but it's also a Greek background. And if you look at those two worlds, at the time of the coming of Jesus, they were already quite obsessed by saying who should have sex in what circumstances. The Jews in particular, who are extremely excited about marriage and actually very unenthusiastic about even celibacy, whereas the Greeks had. And the Romans with them had a very different attitude to, to sex. It was all about free males and free men ran the show and everything should be okay for them. And everyone else is sort of ancillary to that. That's women, that's actually also young males. They're all part of the primary world of the free man, which in Latin would be pater familias, the father of the family. It's all centred on the paterfamilias.
- [10:11]
Kate Lister
It is, isn't it? And when it comes to women and sex, because we're actually here today to talk about the Virgin Mary, that is a very interesting dichotomy that emerges is the veneration of the virgin, but also how other women are treated in biblical texts. Because there is actually quite a lot of sex in the Bible. Even if they're running around saying, don't do that, there's quite a lot of it. I mean, there's two sisters early on who were said to want lovers with genitals the size of donkeys or something.
- [10:38]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Absolutely, yes, yes. Prophet Ezekiel. That's the one. Surprised and shocked. You've looked that up. The naughty parts of the Hebrew scripture. The Hebrew scripture which Christians call the Old Testament is absolutely enthusiastic about physical sex. It's got a book called the Song of Songs which Christians think is about marriage, but actually it isn't. There's not really a mention of marriage in it. It's about love and sexual love. And a lot of it may have been written by women, most of the Bible written by men. But it is the consensus of scholarship these days that these are texts which include a lot of writing or singing by women. Women could sing more than they wrote. And you can identify songs in the Old Testament which may have been composed by women, certainly sung by them.
- [11:32]
Kate Lister
Wow, I didn't know that. What's the evidence for that? Why did they say that they were sung by women?
- [11:37]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Because women are not the literate class in the ancient world, but they have quite clearly a world dance of song and that is part of society. And so their song may be passed down from generation to generation of women, but in the end it may be written down by men and form part of a biblical narrative.
- [11:59]
Kate Lister
Wow. When you go to like much older faiths like Babylon, you get someone like Inanna and we've got records of. She sings songs as well, quite rude ones. There's Song of Inanna.
- [12:09]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Yeah. There's nothing exceptional about Jews. They reflect the norm in the ancient world, particularly the Eastern Mediterranean.
- [12:17]
Kate Lister
So let's talk virgins then. We've got, as you're laying the groundwork here, a group of people that are quite enthusiastic about sex. It certainly doesn't seem to be a don't do that, don't have sexual pleasure type of a world. They have their own hang ups and we can get into that. When does this idea of venerating virginity come in?
- [12:36]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Well, first thing, the Jews and the Hebrew scripture which they created are not enthusiastic about celibacy. They like their women virgins because that's helpful for the men who are going to marry them. But there is no sort of cult of virginity in the Hebrew scripture, and there isn't actually in the New Testament. That's the texts which Christians created for the life of Christ. I mean, you think of the great world of monks and nuns, which we'll no doubt go on to talk about. It is not there in the New Testament. And monks and nuns have always found problems justifying their existence in terms of the New Testament. So you have to think, well, where does it come from when there's hardly any reference to anything which looks like monasticism in the New Testament? In fact, the one reference which you might say looks like a monastic community, people sharing goods, for instance, is in the Book of Acts. And the story is that. That it failed. So that's really not a good basis for monasticism. You do find it in the Christian church pretty early, but not that early. What I mean is the second century of what we call AD or the common era, CE rather than anno Domini. So second century. And where do we find it? We find it in Syria, in the Eastern Mediterranean, West Asia, if you prefer. And you have to think, well, where's it come from? It's there in Christianity and you're getting monks or people who look like monks and nuns by the end of the second century. Well, my suggestion, not just me, is that we look eastwards, because the Syrians were the great traders of the ancient world. They're very commercially minded, energetic people, and they traded beyond the frontiers of the Roman Empire, which they were in. And where would they trade? They'd trade to the great empires of the East, East Asia, China, of course, but also, crucially, India. And what would our Christian Syrian traders in the second century find when they got to India? They'd find monks and nuns, Buddhist monks and nuns, Hindu monks and nuns. And I can see them, and this is entirely speculation, but I can't see any other explanation. I can see them saying, this is rather good. We're traders. We'll trade back this idea within our Christian faith. And that's why you get monks and nuns developing within Syrian Christianity. I think the sources are Hindu and Buddhist. They are not biblical.
- [15:15]
Kate Lister
A lot is made of the fact that Jesus allegedly didn't get married and didn't have children. And so the followers of perhaps virginity are following his example. But not a lot about that's mentioned in the Bible, full stop.
- [15:29]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
You're right. I think Jesus was a single man with no family and no children, because some of the disciples are clearly delineated, sketched out as married people. The Apostle Peter, for instance, is notorious. He's got a mother in law, so he must have a wife if he's a mother in law. But Jesus does look like a celibate. But there are quite a few people in his time who were founding cults or who were prophets within Judaism who are also single. So it's a thing. It's not just a Jesus thing. It is now often said that, oh well, it's clear his wife was Mary Magdalene. Now that's nonsense. There is no ancient evidence of that whatsoever. And the evidence often is modern fakery. So let's just clear that one out of the way. So we have a single man. Yes, but leading a set of disciples, some of whom are called the twelve Apostles, some who are just apostles, some of whom are just disciples. And there are lots of married people. And you look at the early Christian communities there in the New Testament, and they look like families. They look like families in the port cities of the Eastern Mediterranean. There's no hint that they're getting together in monasteries. That is again jumping to the second century. It's a second century thing.
- [16:48]
Kate Lister
Let's talk Mary then, because I'm endlessly fascinated by how you understand Mary within the Christian pantheon. Because one of the central tenets is there's one God, but there's the Trinity. But there aren't goddesses, but there's Mary. And people pray to Mary and she has shrines and she has devotees. And so she is occupying that place of being a goddess. But she's not a goddess.
- [17:11]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
No. And you have to put the word eventually into everything you just said. Eventually she has shrines, but not to start with. What have you got to start with? You have the story of a boy, Jesus, who is born of Mary. That's quite clear. It's there all through the New Testament texts. But there is also something odd about this boy. Mary went on to have a husband, Joseph, and it is, we are told that they were already engaged when it became apparent that Mary was pregnant. And it is quite clear that Joseph was not the father of Jesus. That's clear from all sorts of aspects of the four gospels. And then stories are attached to the birth of this baby from Mary. Let's keep that, that's definite. From Mary. But the stories are extraordinary, aren't they? They feather out in two of the gospels, Luke and Matthew, into the most extraordinary events, angels, the coming of an angel. To Mary and also to Joseph. In one of the Gospels, there are short shepherds, there's a journey to Bethlehem. The funny thing is that everything else in the Gospel does not suggest any relationship between Jesus, Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem. And to cut a long story short, I think that all the things we hear in school nativity plays at Christmas, they're all myth, except for Jesus was born of Mary, her husband was Joseph. That's historical fact. But everything else is added. Why? Why is it added? It's added to make sense of something you mentioned in passing, that this is the birth of God, in a sense, from a human mother, but also a human mother in which the story obstinately says that the father of the baby is not her husband Joseph. And very early on non Christians said, oh, look at that, that basically means he's illegitimate, he's the son of someone else.
- [19:19]
Kate Lister
That joke has been around for a.
- [19:21]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
While then, since the second century at least. I suspect it reflects reality. This birth of Jesus is not in the normal family setting of Judaism. And the two stories, Luke and Matthew, very different stories about the birth of Jesus, squarely face up to that. And they are saying, yep, this is a different sort of birth. It's a human birth, yes, but it is not the sort of birth you'd expect. Now, it seems to me that when you strip away all the miracle stories, what the miracles are trying to say is, yes, this is a really special birth and it has the most special things about it, the powers of the world. King Herod, all that sort of worldly power is defeated by this birth. And that's a message of liberation. It's a message of good news, which it reflects off the reality at the middle, that this is an irregular birth. It's a birth, if you like, by the Holy Spirit, who is the spirit of randomness, of the unexpected. And that's what's built in particularly into Luke's story, because it is. Mary is pregnant by the Holy Spirit. So that's the basis on which we're working. Mary is a girl from Galilee who does marry a man called Joseph. They have children.
- [20:45]
Kate Lister
And that's true.
- [20:47]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
It is true. It's in their gospels, and it's sort of casually put in there. Jesus, brothers and sisters came up and he wasn't best pleased when they appeared. He's never actually very pleased when his family, including his mother, come along. And that clearly reflects some sort of reality. What I think it reflects is arguments within the church after Jesus's death and resurrection about who should lead the Church, should it be family members or should it be inspired people like the Apostle Paul? And so the stories of the Gospels are actually written by that latter group, the non family people, saying, yeah, hang on, the family are not actually the priority in the Church. It is us lot. It is everyone who believes in Jesus. And Jesus actually is made to say that in the Gospels, the family appear. And he looks around, he's been told, your brothers and sisters are here. And he looks around, says, these are my brothers and sisters, not my family, is the implication. Including Mary? Including Mary.
- [21:53]
Kate Lister
He can be quite snotty with her on occasions, can't he? You know, a sort of. Bit of a petulant adolescent, I suppose. But then I was gonna say, he's only human, but he's not supposed to be.
- [22:03]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Well, he is only human. He is as human, as divine. It is making a theological point. They're telling stories which are meant to show you what we would technically call this jargon word theology. But they're talking about truth. It's a different sort of truth from the banal historical fact. For instance, that the Battle of Hastings was fought in 1066. It's not that sort of historical truth. It is truth about this most important story of all, the birth of Jesus, the life of Jesus, the death of Jesus, the resurrection of Jesus.
- [22:36]
Kate Lister
So that puts a different spin on things, because if you remember that he has siblings, then Mary, the Virgin Mary, there should be a sort of a bracket afterwards. Virgin for a bit, Mary, because presumably she didn't stay a virgin then.
- [22:52]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
She didn't. This has always embarrassed the Church that you can't get away from the fact that in the New Testament, in the Gospels, it talks about the brothers and sisters of Jesus, and you can get up to the number seven by the names of those who are actually named in the New Testament as relatives of Jesus and at least two sisters. And the Church simply forgot about this or explained it away in later centuries, right up to the Protestant reformation of the 16th century, when the Protestants, of course, said, well, our religion is Bible and we go back to the Bible. And the more radical of them said, well, actually, Jesus had brothers and sisters. And actually many Protestants were shocked by that. But it's no less than the truth in the Bible. And so Protestants who said this were really on the outside, but they had seen the reality.
- [23:49]
Kate Lister
I'll be back with Dermot and Mary after this short break.
- [24:04]
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- [25:29]
Advertiser/Commercial Voice
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- [25:31]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
- [25:47]
Kate Lister
I buy completely into the idea that Mary and Joseph were real historical figures, that Jesus was a real historical person. Whether you have faith around that or not, she's a person. He had some quite groovy ideas, but we sort of see this, the veneration of the virgin building over time. And when does that start to happen?
- [26:06]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Well, once more significantly, it's Syria in the second century. Just at the time that I'm seeing the first monks and nuns. Syrian theologians start talking a lot more about virginity than the New Testament had done. So we have writings, texts from that period. One of them has a terribly complicated name. I will say it it is the Protevangelium of James. This means a sort of gospel prelude of James, and it fills in the bits which are missing in the New Testament. And this is the infancy of Mary, the life of young Mary, and the birth of Jesus. And this is where we get the first references to Mary being perpetually virgin virgin all the time, with most extraordinary stories attached to it. That a midwife comes along and investigates Mary and is skeptical that she's been a virgin, and the midwife inserts shall we say, some fingers into the Blessed Virgin Mary and is immediately punished from heaven by it because her hand catches fire. Oh my God.
- [27:22]
Kate Lister
That wasn't in my school Nativity. Wow.
- [27:24]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Oh no. But this is in the protovangelium of James. And then of course, an angel is told miraculously to restore the hand to this unfortunate person because she's been taught a lesson, and that is that Mary is ever virgin. And that's a really important dropping off or starting off point from the idea of Mary being a virgin throughout her life. And at the time, this text, this prote Evangelion was thought eccentric, it was not mainstream, and it took about 150 years before people all over the Christian world started saying, see the point of this Syrian text. And so it becomes really important, really important.
- [28:08]
Kate Lister
Had they just not read the Bible bit where Jesus has brothers and sisters before they came up with this Mary and her flame retardant vagina story.
- [28:17]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
It is because suddenly it really matters that purity, virginity, celibacy are central. Because by and large, increasingly, theology talking about God is being done by celibates, by virgins, by monks, by nuns. And it is their priorities which now decide what the church's priorities are. And monasticism was just such a success story in the early church. It spread from Syria all over the place. By the 4th and 5th century, monks and nuns and monasteries and nunneries were there everywhere in the Christian world. And they were the people doing the thinking, doing the talking. And of course there is a sort of consequence of that, a spin off from that, that marriage had become a second best. What is the big story is virginity and getting to heaven is easier for virgins and celibates than it is for married people.
- [29:14]
Kate Lister
Well, now we have a conundrum that the early church found itself getting knotted up into quite regularly. If you want everyone to be a virgin, hurrah, go and be a virgin. But we are going to run out of little Christians pretty quickly if somebody has to be having sex. So how are we going to square that circle?
- [29:31]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Well, we just have to tolerate marriage. Okay. It is rather tolerating marriage. And one early theologian, Origen by name came from Alexandria, did say that anyone who's had sex shouldn't have anything to do with worship immediately afterwards. It's too yucky, it's too disrespectful. And this actually may be why you get separate church buildings from the second and third century, because these are places you don't have sex in. I hope you don't.
- [30:02]
Kate Lister
I do not.
- [30:05]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
And from Then on marriage is there, of course, has to be there, because most Christians still are getting married and having kids. But it is not really the church's concern. It's interesting how little the early church talked about marriage and the fascinating fact, this is a killer fact, which I tell people about sex in the early church. In the early church, there was no such thing as a church wedding. We now argue about whether same sex people should get married in church. Well, in the early church, no one got married in church. And I'm talking up to the 4th and 5th century here. It's not a thing you associate with church. And even then, it's a very slow process. Church weddings became the norm in the very eastern part of the church in the 7th century. In Western Europe, the world of the Catholic church, it's the 12th century. Well, Christian marriage is sort of a medieval invention.
- [31:01]
Kate Lister
It's new. It would have been very baffling to the people who actually wrote the Scriptures. The idea of that.
- [31:07]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Yeah. But on the other hand, a lot of clergy in the early church, probably the majority were married. They weren't monks, but they were married with kids. So that's something which, again, the medieval world in the west changed. And Mary is part of the process of doing this. There is a lady called Thecla who is supposed to be a big mate of Paul of Tarsus, the Apostle Paul you see developing in the Syrian church, again interesting, in the 4th and 5th centuries. And then Mary soon after that spread throughout the Christian world. So we really are talking quite late in the development of Christianity and the world of shrines. You see the shrines of Our lady, shrines of St Mary are 5th century onwards, and again, very many of them medieval.
- [31:57]
Kate Lister
Something else that you see coming out in medieval theology. It has been described by some scholars as misogyny that develops within the church around sort of like your Saint Jerome's and your early four things like that. And they're contrasting Mary with Eve, this sort of battle starts to emerge. Could you speak to that a little bit like, did Eve's role develop as well from somebody that went scrumping in the garden of Eve when she shouldn't have done?
- [32:24]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Well, already the Jews had made this the basic of a cosmic story. Adam and Eve are the people who betrayed us all by disobeying God. And remember, it's Eve who does the first disobeying. She sort of eggs Adam on to.
- [32:40]
Kate Lister
Eat the fruit, let the whole side down.
- [32:42]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Yeah, yeah. Yes, of course, it's not an Adam apple in the Old Testament. It's A fruit of the tree could have been anything. And there are lots of early explanation. Point is, it's already there in the way that Jews see their religion. A cosmic disaster caused by you and me, or our mum and dad, rather Adam and Eve. So that part of the story is there before Mary, before Jesus. But then as Mary's role grows and in the second century, you can begin to see bishops and theologians already saying this. Well, if Eve destroyed everything, then clearly Jesus mother, simply by being his mother, put it all right, and she is the one who reverses the fall of humanity simply by being the mother of God. And then the implications of that, it's very physical. You can't get away from it being physical, but the embarrassment around how much sex might be involved. And then, for instance, once you start saying it's the Holy Spirit in the sense of a bit of God, who was the father of Jesus, well, how did he and Mary link up? Which olific may once ask, is the way in which the Holy Spirit makes the connection? And no prizes for guessing, it is not the normal one by which children are made. It's any other available orifice. It could be the nose, for instance, because one theory among theologians was it is the sweet savor of the Holy Spirit's message which is conveyed to Mary's nose. Actually, that's not very easy to express in art, which I think is one reason why wasn't very popular. But the big one, which most theologians thought is most plausible is the ear. It's an orifice and Mary listens to what the angel says and she is given the message by the ear. So a lot of medieval art shows that. It shows the image of what's called the Annunciation, Mary being announced that Jesus is coming. The angel announces it to her and that's what she hears. So it's all done via the ear.
- [34:57]
Kate Lister
Is there a correlation between some medieval and later iconography I've seen of Eve being whispered to by the serpent, then if this.
- [35:04]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Yes, exactly, exactly. It all makes beautiful symmetry.
- [35:08]
Kate Lister
It does.
- [35:09]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
And this is a second century idea. One theologian called Irenaeus is the heart of this, that they are a corresponding set of women? And particularly if you're speaking Latin, which he didn't. He was a Greek speaker, but soon there were Latin speakers doing theology. And the great thing is that Eva's name is Eva. Yeah, well, Our Lady Mary is addressed by the angel Haor Mary. And in Latin that is Ave a V E. You see, it's the other way round from Eva. It's a Beautiful piece of poetry. And anyone who speaks Latin sees the point. So it's a lovely way of expressing this sense of reversal that all harm done by Eve and Adam is reversed by the second Adam, who is Jesus, and the second Eve, who is Mary.
- [36:06]
Kate Lister
And there was a lot of debate around what kind of sex was going on in the Garden of eden. I remember St. Augustine came up with a really interesting theory of how Adam and Eve were having sex. It was like by osmosis, almost lying next to each other.
- [36:21]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Augustus is not terribly specific because he doesn't want to be yucky. But what he's describing and clearly intends is that it must be a fairly conventional form of sex as we know it, but it mustn't have the awful connotations of losing control, which does seem to me to be a rather usual, very controlled characteristic of sex. He says this very specifically. It's about losing control after the fall, and that's why it's so tainted. But he's insistent, and I think this is a very, very healthy insistence that sex was there, at least potentially before the fall of Adam and Eve. Now, the importance of that is someone you've mentioned in passing, Jerome, a Latin speaking theologian of the time of Augustine, who absolutely detested sex. And he argued, and many other theologians, particularly in the Eastern Church, argued, that sex wasn't there before the fall of Adam and Eve. It is part of the thing which Satan brought in. And actually it is therefore satanic. Sex is satanic according to such theologies.
- [37:33]
Kate Lister
That's where it comes from.
- [37:35]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Yeah. And Augustine, who many see as a gloomy old thing, actually is saying something much more healthy. He is saying, no, sex is part of God's plan. We've mucked it up because we've fallen, but it's still there as part of God's plan. And that means that marriage is also part of God's plan and we must respect it. I had to learn this about Augustine because I always thought gloomy old Augustine. But then I started reading more Augustine. I saw the point that he's writing really against St. Jerome and really rigorous, grim theologians like that to say marriage is good. He wrote a treatise called of the Good of Marriage De Bono Conugali, which he did pair with a treatise about how good virginity was. But interestingly, in the treatise on virginity, he's very insistent on humility. He's very aware that virgins and celibates may be giving themselves heirs at the expense of the marriage. And there's so much which is fascinating and sympathetic in Augustine we must give him credit for what he did.
- [38:46]
Kate Lister
Wasn't he a bit of a scallywag in his youth as well, Augustine?
- [38:49]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Well, he was doing what a conventional young Roman man would do. He had a mistress until it came to be time to get married. And he lived with the mistress for a very long time, 16 plus years. They had a son who I think may have been an accident because in Latin he was called Adeodatus, which means, means given by God. And it suggests to me that God had made that decision, not the. The couple. But doesn't matter really. The big thing is that he was a man who knew the joys of marriage, a link with another person. He knew passion and he was prepared to respect it and try and give them a meaning for it in Christianity.
- [39:32]
Kate Lister
I'd never thought of him that way before. I've always thought of him as one of the dower, thou shalt not gloomy early Christian teachers. But when you actually point that out.
- [39:42]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Yeah, a bit like gloomy old Paul. You know, Paul at Tarsus, who was always thought as a gloomy old chap as well. He wrote something fascinating about marriage. And already you begin to get the sense that marriage is a given by God thing. It is mystical because he said in one of his epistles, each partner in the marriage, the boy and the girl, the bride and the groom, they have equal duties to each other in a sexual way. Their body is owned by the other person. Any old Roman would have said, yeah, of course, my wife's body is my property, but no, Paul is saying that too. That too, yes, but the wife owns the husband's body. That's really radical. It sounds like our love and marriage go together like a horse and carriage sort of attitude to marriage. But that's a modern thing. We've sort of had to rediscover that from Paul.
- [40:31]
Kate Lister
I'll be back with Dermot and Mary after this short break.
- [40:48]
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Sir Dermot McCulloch
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- [41:52]
Kate Lister
When you're looking at the early Christian church and the biblical scriptures, is there as much an emphasis on male virginity as there is on women's virginity? Does that play a part in scripture?
- [42:03]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Not at all.
- [42:03]
Kate Lister
No, of course not.
- [42:04]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
And particularly the Hebrew scripture. No. It is part of this new movement in the 2nd to 5th centuries when monasticism crystallized. There's a fascinating symptom of that, and it is the art around angels. Now, let me tell you a fascinating fact about angels. In the Bible, they do not have wings. There are supernatural creatures in the Bible who do have wings, but they're called cherubim and seraphim and they're not angels. Wings for angels came in, in Christian art in the 4th and 5th centuries, and they clearly borrowed them from somewhere else. And the reason that it's suddenly happening is that now they are identified by. With monks. Monks get to heaven quickly, so do angels. And the best way to do that is by having wings, which they had not done in any biblical reference. Check all references to angel in the Bible and you see that.
- [43:06]
Kate Lister
I'm gonna write a letter to my old Sunday school teacher and just point this stuff out and just be like, excuse me, we need some corrections.
- [43:12]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
It's going to ruin those school nativity plays, isn't it?
- [43:16]
Kate Lister
Especially when I tell him that thing about the angel's hand catching on fire. My goodness.
- [43:21]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Oh, yes, yes. That was a naughty angel making the poor, poor lady's hand burn. But he did put it right.
- [43:28]
Kate Lister
As a final question, though, I could talk to you about this forever and ever and ever. Where do you think the status of virginity is? This is a huge question. The status of virginity is today within the Christian faith. Do you think that it can be challenged, it can be dismantled? Do you think it's as important because. Because what we know now through medical research is that virginity is really a nonsense. You can't prove it. It's an entirely social construct.
- [43:53]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Yes. And actually the ancient world knew that too.
- [43:56]
Kate Lister
Did they?
- [43:57]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Yeah. The idea of the hymen, for instance, is a 4th, 3rd, 4th century medical innovation. Well, where is it now? It's where it always could have been and often should have been and was. And that is that it. It can be extremely liberating to liberate yourself from sex. That was clearly what appealed to all those monks and nuns back in the ancient world, because they were liberated from all the conventions, all the tyrannies of the family system, the paterfamiliars, particularly women. And women's relationship with sex was not what it was today. It was extremely uncomfortable. It was at the behest of men. It could kill you. And so it'd be rather nice alternative to go off and be an abbess somewhere. And the appeal is still there. We're going through a phase in our society, particularly Western society, where sex, sex, sex is everything. And actually sex is often quite uncomfortable, quite miserable. And even if it isn't, it is not the be and all and end all of fulfillment. And the celibate life continues to show us that the Protestant Reformation rejected it completely. They said that celibacy, monks, nuns are all part of this big con trick which we Protestants are rescuing the world from. That was an overreaction. That was chucking out the baby with the bathwater. But now that the churches are often coming together, I think we can be much more sensible and balanced and measured about virginity and celibacy.
- [45:31]
Kate Lister
Dermot, you have been fascinating. Thank you so much for giving us some of your very precious time. I've thoroughly enjoyed myself.
- [45:38]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
I've enjoyed myself too.
- [45:39]
Kate Lister
If people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? Do you have a social media presence or are you smarter than me?
- [45:45]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
I'm on Facebook, but generally you could just Google around and I'm around a lot there. I wrote this book which you mentioned, Lord and the Angels. I actually read the audiobook of it. So if you want to go on listening to me, you just find the audiobook at Penguin and there I am. But otherwise there is the book in Kindle and text form. Please do go and have a look.
- [46:06]
Kate Lister
Thank you so much for coming by. You've been marvelous.
- [46:09]
Sir Dermot McCulloch
Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.
- [46:15]
Kate Lister
Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Dermod for joining us. Honestly, how good was he? When I talk to historians like that, I honestly think, just pack it up, lads, it's done. It's not going to get any better than that. No one's going to know anything more than this guy is. But if you want us to explore a subject, or maybe, maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us@betwixtistoryhit.com Coming up, we've got episodes on the vanity of Henry VIII and a shag marry kill episode with the Roman emperors. This podcast was edited by Tim Arstall and produced by Stuart Beckwith, the senior producer, with Charlotte Long. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets History of Sex Scandal in Society, A podcast by History hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound. Consider this your sign to skip the what's for dinner debate. Tonight, Outback steakhouse has a three course meal starting at just 14.99. Start with soup or salad, then take.
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Kate Lister
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Sir Dermot McCulloch
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