Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society

Episode: "The Real Virgin Mary"

Host: Kate Lister
Guest: Professor Sir Dermot McCulloch
Date: August 19, 2025

Overview

In this lively and irreverent episode, sex historian Kate Lister invites esteemed historian Sir Dermot McCulloch to unravel the truth behind one of Christianity’s most renowned yet misunderstood figures: the Virgin Mary. Together, they explore the historical origins, myths, and evolving perceptions of Mary, virginity, and sexuality in Christian thought. The conversation moves from debunking biblical “facts” to tracing the development of sexual doctrine, teasing out how and why Mary became a central, almost goddess-like, figure—while poking at contradictions and uncovering how these ancient ideas continue to shape attitudes today.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Myth of Virginity and Mary’s Early Story

[04:03] Kate Lister: Kicks off with a bold proclamation: “Virginity is a myth. It is. It's bollocks. It's a social construct.”

• Virginity is an unreliable, unprovable concept, better thought of as a “sexual debut” than loss of something tangible.
• Early Christianity’s focus on Mary’s virginity reflects deeper societal hang-ups about sex and purity.

Context: Sex and Religion in Antiquity

[06:36] Sir Dermot McCulloch: Explains what inspired him to write about sex and Christianity, blending personal experience as a gay man and historian.

• Christianity inherited and reworked both the Jewish enthusiasm for marriage and the Greek/Roman focus on male dominance and sexual privilege.
• Early Christian writings reflect this tension, with shifting priorities over time.

Where Did the Veneration of Virginity Come From?

[12:35] Sir Dermot McCulloch:

• Jewish tradition valued virgin brides but didn’t celebrate celibacy.
• Early Christianity didn't initially have a cult of virginity; monks and nuns appeared later (2nd century CE), probably inspired by contact with Buddhist/Hindu ascetic traditions via Syrian trade routes.
• The New Testament’s famous figures (apostles, Jesus) weren’t all celibate; marriage was common and uncontroversial.

The Evolution of the Mary Myth

[17:10] Sir Dermot McCulloch & Kate Lister:

• No shrines to Mary in the earliest Christianity; veneration and “divine motherhood” developed over centuries.
• The Christmas nativity story is “all myth, except for Jesus was born of Mary, her husband was Joseph. That's historical fact. But everything else is added.” (19:02–19:15)
• Supernatural elements are narrative devices layered onto a real family, possibly to explain Jesus’ irregular parentage and later church politics over leadership.

Mary’s Virginity and Jesus’ Siblings

[21:52] Sir Dermot McCulloch:

• The Gospels acknowledge Jesus’ brothers and sisters; “you can get up to the number seven... and at least two sisters.”
• The perpetual virginity doctrine contradicted scriptures but was later insisted upon, especially post-Protestant Reformation.

The Protoevangelium of James and Wild Medieval Lore

[26:06]

• The “Protoevangelium of James” (2nd-century Syrian text) described Mary’s perpetual virginity—far beyond scripture.
• Memorable moment: A midwife checks Mary’s virginity and her hand catches fire as punishment. “That wasn’t in my school Nativity. Wow.” — Kate Lister ([27:21])
• Such tales reflect the rise of monastic, celibate priorities: "Marriage had become a second best... getting to heaven is easier for virgins and celibates than it is for married people." ([28:08])

Paradoxes of Sexual Doctrine

[29:30] Kate Lister & Sir Dermot McCulloch:

• Societal pressure to value virginity collided with biological reality—someone had to have sex to make more Christians.
• Early church “tolerated” marriage but prioritized virginity among leaders.
• Up to the 12th century in the West, church weddings were rare—a late medieval invention.

Mary vs. Eve: Women and Sin

[31:57]–[36:06]

• Medieval theology contrasted Mary (redemptive, pure) with Eve (cause of downfall)—a powerful, sometimes misogynistic, narrative.
• Symbolic parallels in artwork: Annunciation through the ear ("it’s an orifice”), Eve tempted through her ear as well.
• Quote: “Haor Mary. In Latin that is Ave... the other way round from Eva. It’s a beautiful piece of poetry.” ([35:09])

Debate Among Early Theologians: Is Sex Bad?

[36:20] Sir Dermot McCulloch:

• Augustine (compared to Jerome) viewed sex as part of God’s plan, corrupted by loss of control after the Fall, but not inherently evil.
• Augustine’s nuanced defense of marriage pushed back against more repressive views.

Shifting Status of Virginity

[41:51] Kate Lister: Questions if male virginity ever mattered as much: “Not at all,” says McCulloch.

• Virginity obsession is post-biblical, linked to monasticism; male celibacy was glorified, but female purity even more so.

Angels, Art, and Afterlife

[42:04] Sir Dermot McCulloch:

• Angels in biblical texts did not have wings; this imagery comes later (4th–5th c.) and reflected ideals of asceticism and speed to heaven—"borrowed" from monastic symbolism.

Modern Take: The Legacy and Limitations of Virginity

[43:28-45:30] Kate Lister & Sir Dermot McCulloch:

• Virginity as a “nonsense” social construct: “You can't prove it. It's an entirely social construct.” ([43:53])
• Even ancient societies recognized the impracticality and unreliability of “proving” virginity (the hymen concept is late and faulty).
• Celibacy was, and can be, liberating—especially for women in patriarchal contexts.
• The pendulum has swung but both extremes—hypervaluation or total dismissal—reflect particular cultural moments.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Virginity is a myth. It is. It's a myth, it's bollocks. It's a social construct.”
  — Kate Lister ([04:03])

• “Every religion at the moment is now obsessed with the subject of sex and people's genitals, which wasn’t the really big consideration… Christianity included.”
  — Sir Dermot McCulloch ([06:59])

• “If you could get Jesus here and sort of show him around, he'd say, like, why are you so concerned with who’s going to the toilet where? That wasn't the point of what I was trying to do.”
  — Kate Lister ([07:49])

• “You can get up to the number seven by the names of those who are actually named in the New Testament as relatives of Jesus and at least two sisters… and the church simply forgot about this or explained it away in later centuries.”
  — Sir Dermot McCulloch ([22:51])

• “[In the Protoevangelium of James] a midwife comes along… inserts… some fingers into the Blessed Virgin Mary and is immediately punished from heaven by it because her hand catches fire.”
  — Sir Dermot McCulloch ([27:21])

• “Early church, there was no such thing as a church wedding… It’s not a thing you associate with church. And even then, it’s a very slow process. Church weddings became the norm… in the 12th century. Well, Christian marriage is sort of a medieval invention.”
  — Sir Dermot McCulloch ([30:02])

• “I think we can be much more sensible and balanced and measured about virginity and celibacy.”
  — Sir Dermot McCulloch ([45:23])

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction to Mary and Virginity as Myth: [04:03]
• Origins of Virginity/Celibacy in Christianity: [12:35]
• Birth Narratives and Historical Mary: [17:10–19:19]
• Jesus’ Siblings & Church’s Response: [21:52]
• Syrian Influence and Asceticism: [26:06]
• Protoevangelium and Flaming Hand Story: [27:21]
• Marriage: Its “Tolerated” Status in the Early Church: [29:30-31:06]
• Mary vs Eve, Medieval Symbolism: [31:57-36:06]
• Angels Without Wings (Art/Post-biblical Additions): [42:04]
• Modern Relevance and Debunking “Virginity”: [43:28–45:30]

Tone and Takeaways

• The conversation is smart, witty, occasionally bawdy, and deeply skeptical of received wisdom.
• Both Lister and McCulloch are generous with historical context, use humor to skewer dogma, and invite listeners to reflect critically on how ancient ideas about sex and gender still haunt (and sometimes harm) contemporary society.
• By the end, listeners are left with both a richer understanding of Mary’s historical significance and the knowledge that much of what passes for “fact” is theological invention—often with surprising, scandalous, and subversive origins.

“Virginity is a myth… It's much better to think of it as a sexual debut. But why was the idea of Mary’s virginity so important to Christians in the centuries that followed her life? … And do we know anything really historical about this woman?”
— Kate Lister ([04:03])

Guest plug: Sir Dermot McCulloch’s book “Lower Than The Angels: A History of Sex and Christianity” is available in text and audiobook form, read by the author.
Contact: betwixt@historyhit.com

(Ads, sponsor messages, and outro banter are excluded from this summary.)