The Scandalous Royal Mistress Who Ruled France

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Host: Kate Lister
Guest: Estelle Paranque
Episode Title: The Scandalous Royal Mistress Who Ruled France
Date: October 3, 2025

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Overview

This episode delves into the extraordinary and scandalous relationship triangle at the heart of 16th-century France: Catherine de Medici (queen), Henry II (king), and Diane de Poitiers (royal mistress). Host Kate Lister and historian Estelle Paranque explore how Diane de Poitiers, dubbed "The Golden Mistress," held sway over Henry II—politically, emotionally, and sexually—while Catherine navigated decades of humiliation before ultimately rising to power. The episode blends humor and candor as it examines issues of power, gender, sexual politics, and the personal costs at the heart of royal courts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene: France’s Power Triad

• France, 16th Century: A turbulent era, with dynastic politics dominating.
• Key Players Introduced:
  • Henry II: Second son of Francis I, unexpectedly becomes heir.
  • Catherine de Medici: Orphaned Medici, half-French, married off for dynastic reasons at 13 (06:26, Estelle).
  • Diane de Poitiers: 20 years older than Henry, widow, formidable in beauty and intellect—soon, his lover and tutor (10:04).

Catherine and Henry: A Royal Marriage

• A Teenage Love Story?
  • Catherine, eager for stability after a traumatic childhood, reportedly fell for Henry (07:57, Estelle).
  • “You know, if someone just says hi to you and it’s not bad…You can’t help it. He’ll be my husband.” — Estelle (09:43)
• But Henry was Already Smitten
  • Henry was already obsessed with Diane de Poitiers, his much older tutor—a rarity, and a scandal (10:06).

Diane de Poitiers: Influence & Scandal

• Tutor Turned Lover
  • Diane assigned as Henry’s tutor in languages/classics; relationship turns sexual when Henry is just 13 and Diane 33 (12:14).
  • “She was shagging him. It's horrible, isn't it?” — Estelle (12:14)
  • The discussion openly frames this as predatory grooming.
    • “It’s grooming.” — Kate (14:24)
    • “Absolutely. She’s a predator.” — Estelle (14:25)

The Strangest Menage à Trois in Royal History

• The Sexual & Political Arrangement
  • Henry and Catherine are unable to conceive, stoking rumors and pressure for annulment (16:25).
  • Catherine discovers through court rumor and spying that Henry can perform sexually with Diane, but not with her.
  • In a bizarre turn, Catherine, Diane, and Henry coordinate so Diane prepares Henry, who then completes the act with Catherine—Catherine gets pregnant (19:42).
    • “They decide that they go together in the bedroom with Henry.” — Estelle (19:34)
    • “1546. She’s pregnant. It worked.” — Estelle (19:52)

Humiliation, Power, and Resentment

• Catherine’s Ordeal
  • Catherine endures years of humiliation—political and sexual (21:26).
  • Diane not only orchestrates the king’s sex life but sits on the privy council and interferes in the education of Catherine’s children.
  • “She’s the queen in all but name.” — Estelle (21:35)
• Public Knowledge and Court Reaction
  • The menage à trois becomes the stuff of open rumor and scandal, deeply undermining Catherine’s standing.

Diane de Poitiers: Revered and Reviled

• Diane’s Court Reputation
  • Well-connected, respected, and feared, Diane has both staunch allies and eager rivals (24:12).
  • “It’s not about being liked. It’s about being respected.” — Estelle (24:12)

The Tables Turn: Catherine’s Rise, Diane’s Decline

• Henry II’s Death

  • Unexpected death of Henry II in 1559 puts Catherine in a position to reclaim power.
    • “For Catherine, it is the first tragedy of her life. She lost the love of her life…But then it’s a downfall of Diane.” — Estelle (26:46)
  • Diane is driven from court, loses key properties, and writes a contrite letter to Catherine (27:46).
  • “Sling your hook. You give me back the magnificent Chenonceau Castle.” — Kate (27:01)

• Catherine’s Power Ascends

  • As queen mother and regent, Catherine shapes France’s destiny, guiding multiple sons through reigns and wielding formidable political influence (34:37–37:25).
  • “For 20 years, she had been this powerhouse. And you can be too…age is nothing. If you want to achieve something, you can.” — Estelle (37:14)

Final Thoughts & Notable Reflections

• Diane’s Later Years

  • Retires to her estate, lives out her days with her wealth but without power.
  • “To be a mistress is exhausting.” — Kate (33:24)

• Catherine’s Enduring (and Unfairly Maligned) Legacy

  • “There’s a dark legend around her. None of it is true, none of it. Bullshit.” — Estelle (37:31)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Diane’s Power:
  • “She’s the queen in all but name…” — Estelle Parrank (21:34)
• On Predatory Relationships:
  • “She was shagging him. It’s horrible, isn’t it?” — Estelle Paranque (12:14)
  • “It’s grooming.” — Kate Lister (14:24)
  • “She’s a predator.” — Estelle Paranque (14:25)
• On the Sexual Arrangement:
  • “They decide that they go together in the bedroom with Henry.” — Estelle Paranque (19:34)
• On Catherine’s Humiliation:
  • “It’s humiliating, Kate. Humiliating.” — Estelle Paranque (20:27)
• On Career Late-Blooming:
  • “For 20 years, she had been this powerhouse. And you can be too. Age is nothing…” — Estelle Paranque (37:14)
• On Royal Mistresses’ Plight:
  • “All royal mistresses…their power is absolutely contingent on…the king being in love with you…and the king staying alive.” — Kate Lister (29:10)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00–04:37: Intro, setting the royal context; main players introduced
• 07:57–10:06: Catherine’s early feelings; Henry’s fixation on Diane
• 12:14–14:25: Analysis of Diane’s grooming and predatory behavior
• 16:25–19:52: Problems conceiving, the infamous sexual arrangement, Catherine’s pregnancy
• 21:26–23:51: Diane’s unchecked power and Catherine’s public/private humiliation
• 24:42–27:46: The shifting tide as Henry drifts toward Catherine, then dies; Diane’s fall
• 29:10–30:00: On the predicament and precariousness of royal mistresses
• 34:37–37:25: Catherine’s regency, power, and historical legacy
• 37:43–38:25: Myths about Catherine and her untrue "dark legend"

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Tone & Style

The episode is frank, witty, and irreverent—mixing sharp historical analysis with banter, empathy, and, at times, incredulity at the sordid and surreal details. The language is often candid and earthy, reflecting the mature content and explicit nature of the historical subject matter.

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For Listeners: Takeaways

• The power dynamics around Henry II, Catherine de Medici, and Diane de Poitiers offer stunning insight into gender, sex, and politics at the apex of royal society.
• Catherine’s humiliations and delayed ascendancy underscore both the brutality and resilience required of queens.
• Diane’s story exposes how influence for royal mistresses is temporary, unstable, and often comes at a steep moral and emotional price.
• The episode explodes myths about Catherine and repositions her as one of the formidable power-brokers of Renaissance Europe, particularly in middle age.

Highly recommended for those fascinated by history’s juiciest scandals and the complex inner workings of power, sex, and survival across the centuries.

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

Thanks for listening to Betwixt the Sheets. To get all history hit podcasts ad free early access and bonus episodes, head over to historyhit.com subscribe or you can sign up on Apple Podcasts with just one click. Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are you. I am me. And this is Betwixt the Sheets. So if you've wandered into the wrong podcast, now is your time to get out without disturbing everybody else. Have they gone? Right? Okay, dedicated betwixt us. You know the drill by now. I do have to tell you, this is an adult podcast. Spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. Oh my God, I feel so much safer. Right, on with the show. Hello Betwixters. Once again I find myself lurking in a royal boudoir while of my favorite historical hunting grounds. I know, I know. I probably should just leave them to it. But I do have to find out all the gossip for you, don't I? This time I'm in 16th century France. And even though I am discreetly hidden behind a curtain, across the room in the royal bed with King Henry II is his wife, Catherine de Medici, A formidable woman in her own right. Honestly, you wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of her. And Henry's mistress is there too. Diane de Poitiers. What an odd setup this one is. Diane was known as the Golden Mistress in her own day, and in ours she's known as a Golden Mistress. Child abuser. But I think that we absolutely need to know. How did this bizarre menageritoire even come about? I am getting the hell out of here.

[Don Wildman]

What do you look for in a man?

[Estelle Parrank]

Oh, money, of course.

[Kate Lister]

You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.

[Estelle Parrank]

I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing a button. Era now. Era now.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, what a beautiful dance.

[Estelle Parrank]

Goodness has nothing to do with it, dearie.

[Kate Lister]

Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kilster. Without giving too much away, let me just say that one of the titles we thought of giving to this episode was the Strangest three ways in Royal history. Need I say any more? Well, I probably better had, actually. And joining me today is the fabulous historian Estelle Parank, who previously came on to tell us all about how incestuous the Hapsburg. And despite that being a really grisly Subject. We all had loads of fun, so we had to ask her back on. I also wanted to give a little shout out to a listener all the way from California called Kelsey. Hi, Kelsey, thanks for listening. Your friend Jasmine has put me up to this one, so you can thank her for this. And while we don't normally do shout outs, I couldn't resist this one. Thank you so much for spreading the word on Betwixt over in the States. I mean, you lot could do some cheering up right now, couldn't ya? Right, on with the show. Well, hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Estelle Parrank. How are you doing?

[Estelle Parrank]

Very well. And so excited about this, today's episode.

[Kate Lister]

Well, this has got to be one of the weirdest menage artois in not just French, in history. Right?

[Estelle Parrank]

In history. In history.

[Kate Lister]

I love the history of the royal mistresses. I'm endlessly fascinated by how this worked, who they were, how, as the queen, you put up with the fact that your husband has got a girlfriend. And it's so weird. But this one is between Catherine de Medici, Henry II and Diane de Poitier. And it is weird even by the standards of the time.

[Estelle Parrank]

Absolutely. And weird. But also, like, it tells us so much about women, women power and something a bit unusual here between Henry and Dian.

[Kate Lister]

So weird. Well, wait, I'm getting ahead of myself already, but I can't wait to hear what on earth you think, what the hell was going on here? So let's, let's set the stage a little bit, introduced our cast of characters. So we're in France, 16th century. What's going on?

[Estelle Parrank]

First of all, like, we have to remember a few things. We have to remember that the 16th century in general is a very turbulent time. There's like, you know, yeah, it's chaotic. It obviously means that it was chaotic in France as well. Maybe not as chaotic with Henry VIII and the six wives, but chaotic. Let me explain to you who is Henry ii, who's Catherine? And then we'll move on to Diane. So Henry II is the second son of Francis I of France. And Francis wanted his son, his second son to have a good alliance, a good marriage. But what he really wanted was to have more claim on the Italian territories because he had claims. But there was a lot, you know, lots of people had claims on the Italian territories and lots of wars happened. He organized a marriage between Lorenzo II of Medici with Madeleine de la Tour d', Auvergne, a French noblewoman. And that union gave Catherine de Medici what's crazy? Obviously, she's of the Medici family. And then what happens? Tragically, she's gonna lose her mother, she's 10 days old. And then her father, she's three weeks old. She becomes the orphan of Florence. But she's not someone without, you know, a family. She's just someone who. Like the link between France and Italy. Right. And the reason why Francis, I wanted that marriage, because he was in control of de la Tour Duverne, the family, and he thought that Madeleine would give him what he wants, give him a good claim, a strong claim to the Italian territories. He obviously envisioned here a very strong alliance between the Medici and the royal family.

[Kate Lister]

And the Medicis were pretty badass without getting into them, because they could be a whole episode on their own. But they were completely.

[Estelle Parrank]

They are very like. Like, honestly, most, you know, powerful Italian family, the Borgias and stuff. Like, they're not that different. Or even from the French noble family, the Guises. Talking about people who are in the heart of power. Now, what's very interesting for Catherine, obviously, everything seemed to be less appealing for Francis when both parents died. But then Catherine de Medicius uncle is going to become the Pope.

[Kate Lister]

Well, that's handy.

[Estelle Parrank]

Exactly. And everything became way more interesting for Francis. So he's going to organize the marriage between Catherine and his second son, Henry.

[Kate Lister]

Second son?

[Estelle Parrank]

Second son.

[Kate Lister]

Not the oldest.

[Estelle Parrank]

No, no. He does. He wants a very big dynastic alliance for the oldest, but he wants one that will give him more territories, more claims to the Italian territories through the second son. So with Catherine.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Estelle Parrank]

The Pope and Catherine are going to arrive in Marseille in October 1533, and she is there to marry Henry II.

[Kate Lister]

How old is she?

[Estelle Parrank]

She's 13 years old. 14. 13, 14. But the good thing, Kate. Oh, God. But she's marrying someone the same age, and it's very, very rare.

[Kate Lister]

That's awful.

[Estelle Parrank]

You always end up when you're 13, 12, 14, 10. Like, let's not even go, you know? But you're always marrying someone who's 30, in their mid-20s, and it's dreadful. It's absolutely dreadful. But here, she's marrying another teenager. So the same age. They. They were born the same year. And Catherine, I really believe that she fell in love.

[Kate Lister]

See, that's unusual, too. We don't see that. No, like, where they actually. No, like, real love here. Okay.

[Estelle Parrank]

You know, having said that, you say that, but, like, I could give you lots of raw couples that actually loved each other.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, maybe I'm just being horribly cynical.

[Estelle Parrank]

I think we Tend to forget, you know, some of them just got used to one another. You know what I mean? Like, you know, he grew on me.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Estelle Parrank]

Wasn't my first choice, but I might as well. But there are some that all love matches, and I think that they're very interesting for that as well. But I guess again, that could be a total different episode, because it's quite interesting to discuss this, but here, Catherine fell in love with this teenage boy who was quite handsome. Henry is quite handsome, but he's not in love with her.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, so we've got this Italian orphan from the Medici family, very young.

[Estelle Parrank]

Well, half French, half Italian, half French. Because people always forget that Catherine is actually half French.

[Kate Lister]

She's come over, she married another teenager, second son. Why do you think she fell in love with him? Was he particularly dashing? Like you said, he's good looking. What was he like?

[Estelle Parrank]

I feel because he's young and I think because she's relieved that finally her life is getting stability. You have to remember, like, you know, her life when she was young was really horrible because she was a Medici, because of her family. She was under attack. She was a pawn. And here it felt like, oh, my God, I'm marrying in the French royal family. She knows also, like, it's the land of her mother. So she's very attached to the memory of her mother, and she's just eager to make it work. And here she's relieved is her age is, you know, not bad looking. And it's so easy, you know? Like, I mean, Kate, I don't remember when you were a teenager.

[Kate Lister]

Really stupid.

[Estelle Parrank]

Yeah. I mean, you know, if someone just says hi to you and it's not bad. I know.

[Kate Lister]

You all are the quiver, aren't you?

[Estelle Parrank]

You're like, you can't help it. It'll be my husband.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, good point. Why did she fall in love with him? Because she was 13. That's why. Because you just. You fall in love with everyone.

[Estelle Parrank]

Okay, Come on. He's a prince. Is there.

[Kate Lister]

Marry him. Yeah, okay, that makes sense.

[Estelle Parrank]

But lots and lots of problems are gonna happen very quickly. Henry is already in love with someone else.

[Kate Lister]

Disaster. That's not good. That's not good.

[Estelle Parrank]

When that happens, she's 20 or 90 years. 19 years. Not 19. 19 years older. That woman is Diane de Poitier. She was supposed to teach him languages and classics.

[Kate Lister]

Taught him something.

[Estelle Parrank]

She. Oh, she taught him everything.

[Kate Lister]

She's 20 years older than him. Like, and I know that there's a gender standard here, because if it was a guy and he was 20 years older. We'd all kind of be going, oh, it's a bit weird, but okay. But like a woman at the time, that would have been quite unusual.

[Estelle Parrank]

It was shocking. And, and it was more shocking when everyone realized how much power and influence she had over him. Because here you have to understand that this young teenage boy is completely and utterly smitten by Diane. First of all, she's. I'm going to say she's the most beautiful woman at the French court, but if she's not the most. She's one of.

[Kate Lister]

She's a hottie.

[Estelle Parrank]

Oh, yeah. She's gorgeous for the beauty standards of the time. But even nowadays, if you look at a portrait, you're like, yeah, yummy. She's also extremely intelligent. She was married, she had children and she was now a widow. Let's talk about this. Like, the most powerful women at any court were the, like the widows. Once you're a widow, if you don't want to marry you, you're sorted for life. Like, you're like, yeah, done. So she has her own wealth, she's really well educated and she's at court. And she's gonna have her problems with the mistresses of Francis I, because obviously, you know, people like to be at the center of attention. And she's not a mistress to Francis I, but she's extremely close to Henry. And it's gonna get even more complicated when Francis was going to become the second. He never become the second. If Francis, Duke of Orleans is going to die and he's going to die in 1536, and then it means that Henry and Catherine become Dauphin and Dauphine, so the heirs to the throne. And he is like, oh my God. Diane now has so much influence and power over the future king of France.

[Kate Lister]

I just feel that we need to like, just back and just remind ourselves that he was 13. And that would have meant that she was 33 years old.

[Estelle Parrank]

Yes. And she was shagging him. It's horrible, isn't it? In a way, I find it so.

[Kate Lister]

Horrible when you think about a 13 year old.

[Estelle Parrank]

I would not touch him with a spoon. Like, I don't know if it's an expression, but we're not touching with anything.

[Kate Lister]

Like what? He's a mouseketeer. What on earth does she think she's doing? Just Jesus Christ.

[Estelle Parrank]

But I think here, I've never said that. I think Dian was in love with Henry. I don't think she was.

[Kate Lister]

I don't think she was. Tell me about, like, so you Said that she's a widow, she's got her own children, 33. And. Oh, God, like, what on earth. How did they meet? What was this relationship?

[Estelle Parrank]

So she's family, and then with her husband, there's always been at court, and she's from a noble family, so she's always been around. And Francis thinks that it's a good idea to offer her the position of a tutor to his son Henry.

[Kate Lister]

Was that normal protocol? Do you think he was setting them up somehow?

[Estelle Parrank]

No, probably not. But also, I think he liked pleasing Diane. I think you have to remember Diane is a femme fatah. Is it? It's not just, you know, about beauty, it's about how you carry yourself. It's about charisma, it's about her intelligence, it's about how she make people react. Really.

[Kate Lister]

You see that a lot, don't you? Because, like, you know, beautiful women, beautiful men, they're ten a penny, there's loads of them in the courts. Like, parents are literally flinging their attractive children in front of rich people. And it might get you a throwdown, it might get you like one or two nights, but if all you've got, if all you're bringing is pretty, then that you will be gone quite quickly. Like, the really great places tend to be exactly as you were saying. Intelligent, witty, good company, very skilled at social diplomacy.

[Estelle Parrank]

You know, it's never about sex, Kate. Like, I mean, saying that in your podcast. You're going to hate me now, it's true, but I've always said that a mistress, it can get you into the bed of the king for a few nights, but for you to remain there, you need to. To bring more to. You need to be. You need to be something else. And it's all going to be your mind. But here, let's. Let's not forget here, she's not talking to an adult, she's talking to a young boy.

[Kate Lister]

It's grooming.

[Estelle Parrank]

Absolutely. She's a predator. Like, I mean, if she had been a man, we would have said, like, oh, my God, she's dreadful. You know, it's the same today. You know, when you have, like a university professor or lecturer or whatever, he's a man, he sleeps with students and they're 17, 18, 19, 20, whatever, a predator. But if a woman does it, the Mrs. Robinson fantasy, I find it absolutely disgusting. I think you still have lots of power and influence over a young man that can't say no, really. So, as I said, like, those two, like Henry and Catherine, because let's not forget my Catherine, please.

[Kate Lister]

No, no. We'll get to her.

[Estelle Parrank]

They're both like Dauphine. Dauphine. But he's always spending time with Diane. They're not conceiving. People are starting to think that there's a problem.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Estelle after this short break.

[Don Wildman]

What started the Civil War? What ended the conflict in Vietnam? Who was Paul Revere? And did the Vikings ever reach America? I'm Don Wildman, and on American History Hit. My expert guests and I are journeying across the nation and through the years to uncover the stories that have made America. We'll visit the battlefields and debate floors where the nation was formed, meet the characters who have altered it with their touch and count the votes that have changed the direction of our laws and leadership. Find American History Hit twice a week, every week, wherever you get your podcasts. American History Hit. A podcast from History Hit.

[Kate Lister]

Are they having, like, a sexual relationship? Or is he so busy with Diane that nothing's happening?

[Estelle Parrank]

But that's where it gets interesting. So they're supposed to. Honestly, Kate, you're going to love this. They're supposed to. So at first, you know, from 1533 to 1536, no one is really paying attention to what's happening between Henry and Catherine because they're not heir to the throne. So they're hoping, like everyone was hoping they will have children, but at the same time. And what happened? It's a crazy, crazy story. So you have Henry and Catherine, and everyone's saying, oh, my God, they're not. She has not been pregnant once, and to the point where there are rumors that are saying that he should divorce her or get an annulment, marry someone else. Catherine heard that rumor. Very smart. Very smart woman. I love Catherine Medici with all my heart. She goes to Francis the First. And here, so humble. She said, I completely understand what you have to do to protect the dynasty, you know, your dynasty and the future of France. I will accept an annulment, and I will go back to wherever you want me to go back. I will go to a convent, whatever. I just want you to be happy.

[Kate Lister]

Strategy, Catherine.

[Estelle Parrank]

And he said, oh, my God, I adore you. You're like a daughter to me. There will be no annulment, but we have to find a way. So then it's where she's gonna be, like, asked to drink urine of mules.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, dear. I think I'd have rather gone back to Italy, but okay, I think I would have to.

[Estelle Parrank]

And there are other things that she's gonna have to do. You Know. Go on Pilgr. And, you know, all these things that, you know, it was the woman. But Catherine is a smart woman, and she's like, okay, this must be something wrong. And she always sees Henry and Diane together. So she's like, honestly, I don't understand what's going on because Henry does visit my chamber, but I'm obviously not getting pregnant. That's a rumor, but I believe that it's a true story. When. When you know what's going to happen next, it makes a lot of sense. All right, so again, I wasn't there, but you can see that there's something here. She's going to ask you have a peek to see what's actually going on. When Henry and Diane are together, and she's gonna look into a hall in their chambers and look into what they're doing, and she's gonna realize, oh, my God, he doesn't do that to me.

[Kate Lister]

Do I want to know? I do.

[Estelle Parrank]

Oh, God, they were having sex. I think what happened is that he was never having sex. He must have cuddled her. Never had sex. Never. And. And. Or never. Okay. And then I'm gonna become very graphic, because it's very graphic in the sources. I'm not. I'm a historian. I quote sources. Catherine is gonna go to Diane because that there's a problem if there's an annulment or if she doesn't, you know, produce any children. She's scared that actually Henry II will be married to someone else, and that person might be more charismatic, more beautiful, younger, and that she will lose her influence on Henry. So here we have the mistress and the wife that are into a partnership. She's like, okay, there's something that he's not doing with you that he's doing with me. And she basically tells her he can't get it up with you. He can't do it. You're not attractive enough.

[Kate Lister]

Thanks, Diane.

[Estelle Parrank]

Yeah, thanks for that. And so what she's gonna do is why? It's the weirdest menage trois of all time. They decide that they go together in the bedroom with Henry.

[Kate Lister]

Okay?

[Estelle Parrank]

She prepares him. He finishes in.

[Kate Lister]

Catherine, how do we know this? How do we know? What are the sources?

[Estelle Parrank]

Well, first of all, we have the sources. We have. Basically, it's court rumors, but there's something that doesn't lie. Kate, she's pregnant.

[Kate Lister]

Boom. Something happened.

[Estelle Parrank]

1546. She's pregnant. It worked.

[Kate Lister]

It's so weird. It's so intensely weird.

[Estelle Parrank]

They're having sex. Well, I think it's more Catherine, like imagine you're on your back spreading your legs, waiting for those two to finish, like to do their stuff. And then he comes in you and that's something that happens and happens. And she ends up having 10 children.

[Kate Lister]

If you're thinking about like long term dynastic future security, Catherine has to get pregnant. She has to, like, that's her.

[Estelle Parrank]

She has job.

[Kate Lister]

And if this is the only way of. It's still intensely fucking.

[Estelle Parrank]

It's humiliating, Kate.

[Kate Lister]

Humiliating. And Diane de Poitier is like doing this with two teenagers. Like how old they have been at this point.

[Estelle Parrank]

At that time, they're no longer teenagers. Right. They're in their 20s. But it's still very disgusting. It's still very. And also, we realize the promo was also Catherine, like there was something wrong. Well, the promo was never Catherine because obviously she got pregnant as soon as he did what he had to do. But he actually had an illegitimate child with a mistress that he shrugged in Italy when he went on a campaign and he came back with saying, well, I can have children. So obviously the problem is, you know the problem, babe, it's not, it's not Catherine. It's probably like you didn't come inside her for you to have a child. But here Catherine builds up so much resentment and hatred for this mistress. And it's not just that, because it's not just about sex. We said that once they become king and queen of France. So it's in 1547. Do you know who has a seat at the privy council? Oh, God, Diane.

[Kate Lister]

It's not just humiliated in the bedroom of what's going on here, but this.

[Estelle Parrank]

It's humiliated everywhere.

[Kate Lister]

This woman starts. She's basically regarded as the second queen.

[Estelle Parrank]

She's the queen.

[Kate Lister]

She's the queen.

[Estelle Parrank]

Yeah. She's the queen in all but name. She's in the privy council worse than that. And that's where Catherine really stood firm here. And I love it. Like I wrote this in Bloodfire and Gold. So it's a story of Elizabeth I and Catherine Virginia. But I covered this because they're formative years for Catherine. You can't understand Catherine, what she does later on in her life, how such a protective mother she becomes. If you don't understand the years and the decades of humiliation, not just in the bedroom, the fact that people think she's not attractive enough, the fact that, you know, she can't get her husband to get it up and to come, like, it's beyond humiliation. But also on a political level, you know, her rival is in the privy council. And then she was like, stop. Enough. Is when jandaporti tried to have. Well, she didn't just try. She had an interest in the royal children's education. And then Catherine was like, enough. They are my children.

[Kate Lister]

Absolutely. Yeah, that's.

[Estelle Parrank]

And I'll be the one writing to the educators and tutors and not you. But Diane keeps doing it anyway. And there's this biggest resentment and rivalry to a point. You know, there's also Mary Stuart, you know, who's at the French court, and she loves Diane. She chose Diane's side. And that's why, when people ask me, why do you think Catherine de Medici didn't like Mary Stuart that much? Because of that. Because of that. Because she loved her biggest rival more than she loved her mother in law.

[Kate Lister]

And there was things like when they got married, didn't the Pope send a wedding gift to Diane de Poitier as well? Just like little things like that. Like, it's just humiliating on a global platform. Everybody knows about this.

[Estelle Parrank]

Everybody knows the power and influence of Diane and how much it affected Catherine. But remember here, I think what's the craziest part here is not just about sex. The sex part is, I think, a personal. An intimate humiliation.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Estelle Parrank]

Because rumors were everywhere. Like, I mean, let's face it, they could not conceal it.

[Kate Lister]

No.

[Estelle Parrank]

For years she would not have had any children. And as soon as Diane accepted to join the royal bedchamber, do what she had to do, she became pregnant. That is very clear here. That we have three people naked together.

[Kate Lister]

It's so controlling from Diane de Poitier. Like, she's controlling every aspect of Henry's life now. Like, she's controlling Henry's life. She's controlling Henry. Was Diane well liked at court? Because I don't like her and I'm hundreds of years later and like, when I listen to this, I'm just like, get in the bin, you. Awful, awful. Like. But was she well liked?

[Estelle Parrank]

She had lots of enemies, but she also had lots of alliance. Like, the Guises were quite good friends. I mean, not. You know what I mean? I say friends. I mean, the French court in the 16th century. I don't think you can call anyone friends, but, you know, but I think it's because they recognized her power. I think, you know, it's not about being liked. It's about being respected. It's about recognizing that you have power because you control the king. So then you had people obviously kissing your ass and others being like, waiting for your downfall because there's One thing, Kate.

[Kate Lister]

It's coming.

[Estelle Parrank]

The table's always done. They always do.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Estelle Parrank]

I mean, it's just a part of life, what's sad. And I'm going to tell you that before we go with, like, you know, the triumph. I call the triumph of Catherine and the downfall of Diane. But let's talk just before that. What's very interesting is that towards the end of Henry II's reign, he started, like, around 1555, 1556. He's starting to get on it better and better with his wife because he realized that she's been loyal all the time. She only showed him love and respect, and he's starting to feel for her. Diane doesn't like that. And he's starting to laugh. We have records where they start laughing together. And Catherine is showing that she does understand politics. Now, I'm going to tell you something that I wrote in my book, but also that most people don't know. Catherine de Medici is the reason why France got back Calais. She gave a speech to the Parlement de Paris and managed to get funds to send to Henry, her husband, who managed to get back, okay, so we lost the war. But forget about that. We don't care. We got callie back in 1558, and that is Catherine. And then Diane is like, oh, my God, her speech is. I quoted almost the whole thing in my book because it's such a wonderful, powerful speech. It's when you realize, oh, my God, she's so politically, diplomatically intelligent, and Henry is so proud of her when he comes back. I mean, they lost the war. It's very difficult. I mean, I mean, lost is a big term. I mean, Spain, England and France had to stop this because it, you know, things were not working anymore. Everyone was, like, getting bankrupt. But he's here like, oh, my God, my wife is not that stupid. So when he dies on 10 July, 1559, after a tournament that is going to celebrate that peace between France, England and Spain, and where he marries his daughter to Philip II of Spain when he dies there. For Catherine, it is the first tragedy of her life. She lost the love of her life. She says that she was in love with Henry, completely in love with Henry, despite what he put her through. But then it's a downfall of Diane because she's like, all right, now it's my son who's in charge. Francis II married to Mary Stuart. And you, you go back. You're no longer welcome at court.

[Kate Lister]

Sling your hook.

[Estelle Parrank]

You give me back the magnificent Chenonceau Castle. Like, it's going to be the chateau of Catherine de Medici, and she's going to say, you can have a castle. She let her have like everything that she had from her nobles rights and, you know, noble birth. But she takes away a lot of things that Henry gave to her. There's stuff that Diane refused to give back, some jewelry and stuff. I think there's a sentimental. I mean, to be fair, I still don't think she was in love with Henry. I think she was just in love with the idea of power and of having so much influence on the king. But it's a downfall. And then, you know, she retreats. She even wrote a letter, Kate, to Catherine, apologizing for all the years of humiliation. But do you think she would have written that letter if Henry hadn't died?

[Kate Lister]

Not a chance.

[Estelle Parrank]

Exactly. You know, I'm just like, you're still a.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Estelle after this short break.

[Don Wildman]

What started the civil war? What ended the conflict in Vietnam? Who was Paul Revere? And did the Vikings ever reach America? I'm Don Wildman, and on American History Hit. My expert guests and I are journeying across the nation and through the years to uncover the stories that have made America. We'll visit the battlefield and debate floors where the nation was formed, meet the characters who have altered it with their touch, and count the votes that have changed the direction of our laws and leadership. Find American History Hit twice a week, every week, wherever you get your podcasts. American History Hit. A podcast from history Hit.

[Kate Lister]

This is the thing that all royal mistresses and royal favorites have to contend with is their power. And their influence is absolutely contingent on, first of all, the king being in love with you and wanting to have you around. And secondly, the king staying alive. Catherine de Medici, she's gonna have power no matter what. But Diane de Poitier, it's completely dependent on Henry not getting killed.

[Estelle Parrank]

Exactly. And honestly, she didn't see that coming. He was 40. He died in a tournament. It's an accident. You know, he should not have died. That puts the whole country in a huge turmoil. That is gonna, you know, then there's gonna be lots of problem in the second half of. Of the 16th century for France and for Catherine, but in a way. So Catherine lost a love of her life, but she had a revenge.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, Life begins at 40 for Catherine, doesn't it?

[Estelle Parrank]

It does, it does.

[Kate Lister]

That makes me think. So then Diane is well into her 40s by the time this happened, and she was famously beautiful. And didn't she Have a secret for preserving her beauty.

[Estelle Parrank]

Yeah. There's other things that she put like gold on her face and that she was drinking things as well, to appear still young as, you know. Honestly, Kate, I think that there are some people that have good genetics. Right. Like, they're just beautiful people. Like, there's nothing really you can, you know, you see as well like women or men, that some of them, they age gracefully and beautifully. And I think J was one of them, one of these lucky women. But also, I think that it was also, she started on someone so young. How does he get rid of her? There's almost like a maternal figure here.

[Kate Lister]

So poor Catherine. I mean, like, just to have. To have endured that for like 25 years or whatever it was is just insane. And you can kind of look at Diane's approach and be like, well, you're clearly a sexual predator and you're clearly somebody that is obsessed with power and you've manipulated this person. What on earth was Henry doing? What do you think his relationship to this? Because it was bizarre how dependent and obsessed he was with her.

[Estelle Parrank]

Well, first of all, we have to remember that Henry lost his mother really young, Claude of France. So I really think here we have this kind of weird dynamic where he fell in love because she's beautiful. And also, like, can you imagine you're a teenage boy and you get the woman that everyone is like, everyone would love to shag.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. The pin up of the day.

[Estelle Parrank]

Yeah. And at the same time, I think as the relationship evolves and as she grows older, then it's like the allegiance and the loyal. He's extremely loyal. Like Henry is extremely loyal in lots of ways in his relationships. And I think this kind of loyalty towards her and the sense of maternal figure, mother figure that he could not have with Catherine, who was the same age. So he didn't have that kind of relationship with her.

[Kate Lister]

It's grooming as well, isn't it? It's like long term. It is grooming over. Like, he was so young and clearly quite a traumatized childhood because it wasn't he like taken hostage at one point.

[Estelle Parrank]

And yes, he was sent. So. So his father was taken hostage by Charles V of Spain and he was in prison in Spain. And his grandmother, because she absolutely wanted to have the king back. I mean, the situation in France was, you know, dread organized that the two princes should be sent instead of the king and the king would be released and it was accepted. So he was in prison in Spain for years before himself being released as a little boy. Yeah. It really, I think, messed up with his head as well. And when he came back, maybe that's why Istad was like, well, I'm gonna give you a beautiful tutor to make up for all these years. Not expecting that Ms. Tudor will actually take advantage of a young prince the way she did.

[Kate Lister]

It's such a messed up story, isn't it? What happened to Diane in the end? Because I love that for Catherine, just the moment he's off his horse, right, bitch, you are out of here. Pack your bags. The Uber is on the way. You've been waiting for this.

[Estelle Parrank]

I never want to see you again. Like, it's basically this. But Diane just stay in the Chateau de Hanette and just live there until her death. Like, she grows old on her own. Like, she loses her power and her influence at court. But at the same time, I wonder, you know, if it's not something she enjoys, because finally she has a peaceful. Do you see what I mean, Kate? Like, I'm saying, like, for someone, exhausting, isn't it?

[Kate Lister]

To be a mistress is exhausting, but.

[Estelle Parrank]

Also always in the middle of everything that was happening. And somehow now she got, like, peace and quiet. She still had her wealth. Yeah, it's a revenge for Catherine because at least Catherine doesn't have to see her face anymore. Yeah, but really, when you look at it, Janice appeals for end of life. Like, she lose, like, power. But I guess when you're in your 60s, you're like, yeah, it. You can have it because you're tired.

[Kate Lister]

By that point, aren't you? Just, you know, it'd be quite nice to retire to a little shower. So I don't know if she ever got what we call a comeuppance, but she certainly got slung out of court.

[Estelle Parrank]

She had to give back things. I think giving back Chenonceau must have been. I mean, Chenonceau is. Is the most beautiful for me, like, most beautiful castle in France. And I think giving it back when she knew that Henry gave it to her and wanted her to have it, it must have been like something she. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It must have burned her a little. But otherwise, it's not like she lost.

[Kate Lister]

Not really.

[Estelle Parrank]

She lost complete power and influence. That. Yes. But she was in her 60s when it happened, so.

[Kate Lister]

And what happened to Catherine? So Diane is gonna go and just go and live in this castle and just calm down. You, Henry dead and gone, God rest his wee bum. What happens to Catherine?

[Estelle Parrank]

Catherine is the rise of Catherine. So at first, not really. So in 1559, her son Francis becomes Francis II. He's married to Mary Stuart. The Guises become important at court. They're on the privy council. Catherine is on the privy council and she becomes an advisor. But at first it's very hard because lots of people have more influence on the royal couple than she does. She's close to Francis, but he's 16. He does what he wants. You know how like, mom, leave me alone. You know, like kind of an attitude. But he's gonna die in 1560, December 1560. And that's very, very hard for Catherine to lose him at the same time. That's a complete rise of Catherine, because then her second son, Charles, is nine years old. He's going to be Charles the Ninth, and he's nine years old. And it means that she has now to fight for the regency and just exactly what she's going to do. And she managed to get it. Maybe not in official terms, but she gets it. She doesn't get the official title Antoine de Bourbon, who's going to get it, but she shares it with him. Bourbon is in Navarre. So she's like, I'm fine. I can do whatever. And she has complete control. She has complete control over her boy to the point that even when he becomes of age, which is 12 years old, 1562, when he's crowned and everything, he literally said, my mother is still ruling for me. Wow, Sweet boy. But when he's in his 15, 16 years old, and then he's starting to argue with her, he's starting to say, mom, I know what I'm doing. And she's like, no, you don't. And she's still very much in power. She loses power or she's no longer in control. In 1574, when he died. And then it's Henry III. So her a favorite son. But he's a favorite. But he's 25. He's 25. He becomes king and is like, mum, chill. You'll be on the privy council. You'll be one of my most important advisors for sure. I will listen to you, but I won't do everything you do or you want me to do. Like, she loves him so much. She loves Henry III so much. He's definitely the favorite. He looks like Henry ii. He's very dashing. You'll see. Portrait. Okay? There's not just me saying that you'll see. Like, he really is. She's still very much like a very important advisor. She writes letters to everyone. She writes letters to Elizabeth I all the time. I wrote this. And blood, fangirl like, but at the same time, she's not the one in control. Henry is. But she had been in control before. She had been ruling. And that's the rise of Catherine. Like, it's Catherine being constantly important politically and diplomatically when she wasn't. When she was younger. So really, when I, you know, when I hear women that says, like, oh, you know, you can't succeed when you're in your 40s, 50s. No, you can be rising. You can be like. I mean, she died. She was 69. For 20 years, she had been, like, this powerhouse. And you can be too. Like, you know, age is nothing. If you want to achieve something, you.

[Kate Lister]

Can just make sure you get rid of your husband's mistress first, and then you. And then you are on your way.

[Estelle Parrank]

On your way to greatness. No, but she is. And I think Catherine is so, like, badly portrayed, and there's so many. There's a dark legend around her. None of it is true, none of it bullshit.

[Kate Lister]

I think I would have bumped Diane off if I was Catherine de Medici. I think I would have just had a word with somebody who knew about those kind of things, and I think I might have taken her out.

[Estelle Parrank]

You think so?

[Kate Lister]

Well, I never understood why she didn't do that, because she must have been a massive pain in the ass.

[Estelle Parrank]

Yeah, but Catherine was not that type of woman. She just focused on what she had to focus on, which was ruling with her sons and making sure that France would. You know, that's the thing. Catherine was so devoted to France and the Valois dynasty. She really married into the dynasty and really, really cared about it. I feel so sad, you know, that, you know, despite the fact that she has 10 children is the end of the Valois dynasty. It should have never, never happened, and.

[Kate Lister]

Yet that shouldn't have happened.

[Estelle Parrank]

It's horrible for her.

[Kate Lister]

Estelle, you have been wonderful to talk to. I knew that you would be. And if anyone wants to know more about you and your work, where can.

[Estelle Parrank]

They find you so they can find me? On Instagram. That's now my favorite social media platform, obviously published by Oblat Fangold. And if you want to know more about Catherine de Medici and who she. That's the book for you. It's about her relationship with Elizabeth, the First of England. Because actually, these two also have a very funny story. So.

[Kate Lister]

Amazing. We'll have you back to tell us about that one then. Thank you so much. You've been absolutely marvelous.

[Estelle Parrank]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for listening, and thank you so much to Estelle for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is you get your podcasts. Coming up, we've got an episode taking you inside the brothels of Tokugawa Japan and a special episode with none other than Philippa Gregory on the betrayal inside Henry VIII's court. And if you want us to explore a subject, or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email [e-mail] this podcast was edited by Tom Delaghi and produced by Stuart Beckwith, the senior producer with Charlotte Long. Join me again. Betwixt the Sheets History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History hit.