← Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
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- [00:00]
Kate Lister
Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history, like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods, or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries plus new releases every week covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe.
- [00:38]
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- [01:09]
Kate Lister
With VRBoCare, help is always ready before,
- [01:13]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
during and after your stay.
- [01:15]
Kate Lister
We've planned for the plot twists, so support is always available because a great trip starts with peace of mind.
- [01:23]
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- [02:19]
Kate Lister
Hello my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. Welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. I think you know the drill by now, but I'm going to give it to you again anyway. We call it the Fair Dues warning because if you keep listing and you get offended. Tough tits. That one was on you. Fair Dues right? Here it is. This is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things. Adult awake range on subjects and you spend adult too. Right, let's crack on. Join me for a stroll through Victorian London, where the fog sits low and you can taste the soot in the air. Honestly, where's a cold can of Coke to clear your throat when you need one? In a workhouse. Down the road lives a child called Charles Spencer Chaplin Jr. Amongst his life of poverty, he's studying everything. The stagger of a local drunk, the sway of a laborer, and the dignity people have in the hardest of environments. He doesn't know it yet, but he's collecting for a character that will one day make his fortune. His life takes some extraordinary and pretty dark twists and turns. And we're going to find out all about him today. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. Charlie Chaplin is an icon, maybe the icon of Hollywood's golden age. And his life is fascinating. From the filthy cobbled streets of Victorian London to the glitz and glamour of Hollywood's film sets, it was a life filled with drama and controversy, almost as much off the screens as there was on it. To unpack some of the major moments of his story and to find out if his mustache really did influence Hitler is Dr. Lisa Steinhaven, professor of English at Ohio University, Zanesville, and an expert on all things Charlie Chaplin. And whilst I'm here, I wanted to let you know once again about the two Betwixt the Sheets live shows that are happening in May, one in Edinburgh and another in London. Tickets are available@f.co.uk just search for betwixt and I'd love to see you there. But a word to the wise, there's only about 20 tickets left for Edinburgh and London is getting towards 80% sold out. So move quickly, get on with it, don't be waiting. Right on with the show. Hello and welcome to Betwixt the sheets. It's only Dr. Lisa Steinhaven. How are you doing?
- [05:03]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
I'm doing excellent. How are you?
- [05:05]
Kate Lister
Well, I'm beyond happy to be talking to you because you, I mean, we've got to say you're a Charlie Chaplin expert, right? You've written, you've written. How many books have you written on him?
- [05:15]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
About four.
- [05:17]
Kate Lister
That's a lot of books, Lisa.
- [05:19]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
I know, it is a lot.
- [05:20]
Kate Lister
Do you remember when you first encountered him? I mean, he must be such a huge presence in your life, but do you remember when you first saw a film, heard his name?
- [05:30]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Right, in middle school here, when I was Growing up in the 70s, we had an hour for lunch, half an hour was eating, half an hour was watching old silent films. So that's where I came across him.
- [05:44]
Kate Lister
He's. He's iconic in a way that. Well, very few Hollywood stars become absolutely iconic, isn't it? He is old school Hollywood. Right, right.
- [05:54]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Well, he was one of the first, is the reason, with Douglas Fairbanks, Mary Pickford and William Hart. I mean, they all became like these huge stars that everybody should remember, but I'm not so sure that most of them are remembered today. Charlie is, Charlie still is, yeah.
- [06:12]
Kate Lister
I love that you're on first name terms with him, of course, but I don't know how much people actually know about his, his background. I mean, obviously his character of the Tramp is hugely famous and he went on to dominate Hollywood, but his origins are decidedly less humble than that.
- [06:30]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Right, right. So he grew up in the, on the south side of London. London boy, yes, Kennington area, if you know that. And his mother and father were both in the music hall business. His father was actually quite famous as a singer. Their marriage only lasted like a year, I think.
- [06:50]
Kate Lister
Okay.
- [06:51]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
And Charlie had an older half brother, Sidney, who became very instrumental in his later life in Hollywood and such, also in his musical life, to be honest. But they were destitute. His mother was put into an insane asylum when he was 7 years old. And I think Sidney was able to get training on a ship, but when he came back, he found Charlie roaming the streets. It's just really, really sad. Sad thing.
- [07:22]
Kate Lister
Can you tell me about his mother, Hannah? Because I've been long fascinated with her. I read some and I don't know if this was just a myth that people make up, but that she was a sex worker. Is that untrue? Is that.
- [07:33]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
That's up for debate.
- [07:34]
Kate Lister
Jury's out. Okay.
- [07:37]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
She was a single mother who was trying to put money together as best she could. I mean, the traditional story is that she did piecework in the apartment, you know, and also she was a singer in the music halls for as long as she could do that. But she did have health problems, so whether those came from doing other things is not clear.
- [08:02]
Kate Lister
She wasn't a very well lady. I mean, how much do we even know about it must have been so traumatic for those children. But she get. They spend time in the workhouse and then she gets institutionalized. Is that the order of things?
- [08:14]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
She checks them into the workhouse, I think around 1897, something like that. When they leave, then she's not well enough to do anything. So she's put into the asylum at that point. Yeah. So they spent many years in different workhouses. The one in Kennington, for sure, which is now the Cinema Museum, and Hanwell, which is out in the country someplace. They were there for a while, so. Yeah.
- [08:43]
Kate Lister
Do we know much about Hannah's illness? Like, I know it sounds. It's such a silly question. Maybe, but why was she institutional?
- [08:50]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Well, that's part of the thing that we're unclear about, because her records do say syphilis. Okay.
- [08:57]
Kate Lister
Oh, I see. Right. The dots have been. Right, yeah. Right.
- [09:01]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
That is written on her records. So it could be that.
- [09:04]
Kate Lister
Okay, it could be that. Oh, that. This must have had a profound effect on young Charlie Chaplin.
- [09:12]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Oh, yeah. It's. It's being poor like that. I mean, he got a lot of flack in his later life for being such a cheapskate in many regards, but it's because when you're poor, you want to make sure that you have enough, you know?
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Kate Lister
This isn't just poor, is it? This is homeless.
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Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
This is a destitute.
- [09:30]
Kate Lister
Yeah, really destitute. Right. I'm trying to think, like, how do you go from that then to. He said that his parents. Where's his father, by the way?
- [09:39]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yes, I was going to mention that his father was successful and was actually brought up on charges for not supporting his sons. He was also responsible for Sydney and brought the boys into his household for a little bit. That didn't work out with a new girlfriend or whatever. And he died in 1901 anyway from alcoholism. So he wasn't around for very long to help out.
- [10:02]
Kate Lister
Yeah, this is bleakly. So this is not a good start.
- [10:05]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
No, no, it's not. But it's the entertainment business. I just want to point that out.
- [10:13]
Kate Lister
Oh, Lord. So what happens and how do you go from this level of destitution? How does he get his break? How does he start on the stage? What's his career trajectory?
- [10:24]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Well, actually, I want to blame Sidney for that because Sidney was a bugler on ships for. For a while. This is. I don't know where the entertainment aspect came in again. And when he got done with that, then they went into music hall and they started very small, but ended up with the Carnot London comedians. Sydney was hired first. Charlie was very, very young at that point. By the time. Let's see. I think Sydney started in 1908. Oh, no, I'm sorry. 1906. He was born in 1884. So Charlie wasn't then hired on until 1908 or a little bit later than that. And it was Sidney who got him the job because he was a skinny kid. You know, he was obviously malnourished and all this sort of thing and didn't really have much to offer Carnot. But it was Sidney's expertise and reputation at that point that got his younger brother on. And that was. Is where it steamrolled because he became a huge headliner for Carnot. He came over here in 1910, and by 1913 he had the Keystone contract because Max Sen saw him in a one of his, you know, music hall shows. Night that's Wild Club or what it was called.
- [11:45]
Kate Lister
To go from nothing at all in a few years to suddenly. Did he just land in America, in Hollywood at the right time as things?
- [11:55]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
I think so, yeah.
- [11:56]
Kate Lister
It was. I'm not saying that he's not very talented. He clearly is and we'll talk about that. But like, he just like, you know, the talk about America as land of opportunity. It sounds like he just got off the boat and they were like, here, have a Hollywood contract.
- [12:07]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
That's right. No, no, it doesn't happen that way. He was touring around, I think. I think it was his second or third American tour before he was discovered by Max Sennett. And it wasn't until he went to the west coast to perform, actually.
- [12:23]
Kate Lister
And what kind of acts is he doing to even get noticed?
- [12:26]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
It was called Mumming Birds in England. You may have heard of it, and I'm not sure, but it's what the show consists of is a stage within a stage. So you have acts on the stage and then you have this second stage where it's the unruly audience member who's really the focus. And that's. That was Charlie's part, the inebriate, he was called. So all of the little shenanigans that he gets up to in watching the pseudo entertainment on the stage is where his brilliance came in.
- [12:59]
Kate Lister
So I wonder how the rest of that troupe felt about him getting the big break and them not.
- [13:06]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
No, there were others. I mean, this was a long, long going show, so others were in that spot. But he had worked up to it kind of. But I think there's always gonna be jealousies too.
- [13:19]
Kate Lister
Yeah, of course, of course. So what did they love about him? I mean, now, you know, that character of the Tramp is iconic, but what do you think it was about Charlie Chaplin that just made early Hollywood and the early film producers go, yes, him. We want him.
- [13:35]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
I think there's several things. First of all, the character itself, the Little Tramp character is quite charismatic. I mean, he appeals to everybody. He can appeal to you if you're a mother, because you want to mother him. You know, he's got so many problems. He appeals to the working class because he kicks the policeman or the boss in the pants. You know, he doesn't take that kind of stuff. He's very anarchic, kind of. And he's got incredible body control. I mean, you know, what he can do with his body is funny. It's balletic, artistic, all kinds of things, you know. So that Little Tramp character was really golden in terms of being able to attract popularity.
- [14:22]
Kate Lister
If anyone hasn't watched his films or isn't familiar with it, can you just describe who the Tramp is and where he came from?
- [14:29]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Okay, so the Little Tramp was developed during the. His keystone contract where he was told to go into the dressing room and come up with something. Right. So he.
- [14:40]
Kate Lister
Just like that.
- [14:41]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yeah. He chose a mismatched costume. Now he had. He modeled the walk and certain parts of the behavior on people he'd seen in England when he was there. But the, the costume itself was just a matter of a too small waistcoat, too big shoes, too small hat, too big jacket, things like that. So very mismatched kind of an outfit. But also a jacket that would have belonged to a more wealthy person that is, you know, a little frayed at the elbows and that sort of thing. The mustache was to make him look older because, you know, he was in his 20s and he looked very, very young with that pretty face of his. So he had to ugly up a little bit.
- [15:24]
Kate Lister
He was in his 20s. I just. I watched the kid last night. You can watch it all retouched up online because I knew I was going to come and talk to you. And I was looking at him thinking, how old would I think that he is there?
- [15:39]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Okay, so the kid. He would have been. I always. It's always the year 21 plus 11. So he would have been 32.
- [15:47]
Kate Lister
32. Oh, it's such. It's such a lovely picture, that one as well.
- [15:55]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Wonderful.
- [15:55]
Kate Lister
It's just, it's put. And you know what? I was. Because we were talking to another film historian, William J. Man, about the Hollywood Hayes Code and about how pre code films were markedly different. And as I was watching it, I was noticing. I was like, he's absolutely right. There's themes of adultery in it. There's themes of sex before marriage in it. There's lots of like, broad. Yes. And I was like that's. And this was like 1920s. I mean, it's not explicit, but I was noticing that is quite raunchy. Maybe not suggestive.
- [16:29]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yeah, Body is what they called it. There was a lot of press against it. You know, this body humor is what they referred to it as until a woman named Minnie Matter and Fisk came out in the Atlantic or something with this article about the fact that Chaplin's, you know, screen Persona was art and not body humor. So that kind of changed things for him.
- [16:56]
Kate Lister
When you know about his past and how he grew up in extreme poverty, you can't help but wonder how that shaped this character of the Tramp.
- [17:07]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yeah, well, he. As I said, he kind of modeled his gait on one of the street peddlers that he was familiar with in London. I'm sure he saw plenty of inebriates there and here that he could model himself after. I mean, that was a really popular comedy back then, was being inebriated. We don't care for that so much anymore. But back then it was the. It was the thing, you know, and
- [17:35]
Kate Lister
something that's often said about the Tramp is that there's a lot of. There's the dignified, the dignity of that character in poverty. And people have been tempted to draw that parallel as well, that. That he's bringing dignity back to poverty. What do you think about that?
- [17:50]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Well, in that the. The Little Tramp character is so self assured. He has a lot of confidence. He's not like a victim at all. No, he is. And the beauty of the films is that he comes in without any backstory and he goes out without leaving any relationships or anything. You know, he's. He's almost like metaphorical character in a way. He's not real. He's. He doesn't belong anywhere and he belongs everywhere kind of a thing.
- [18:21]
Kate Lister
And how did audiences react to the. To these early films? I think I know what you're going to say, but tell me anyway.
- [18:27]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
They love them. They were very violent. I don't know if you've watched the Keystones. They're a whole different animal than the Kid. For instance, There's a lot of.
- [18:36]
Kate Lister
Tell us how.
- [18:38]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Beating up people, spitting. Yep. Pulling clothes off. You know, you name it. And if there had been words, there would have been body language, too, I'm sure.
- [18:51]
Kate Lister
Were people shocked by those ones
- [18:55]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
initially, until it became a thing. I mean, and there's so many Keystone comedians that became famous after that, you know.
- [19:03]
Kate Lister
Still. Still a thing. Isn't it violent?
- [19:04]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yes, it is.
- [19:05]
Kate Lister
So He's. Oh, I've got to ask you, because I was thinking this last night. Where did that mustache come from?
- [19:11]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
He just cut down a mustache in the Keystone dressing room and stuck it on. It came from anywhere. Except he just wanted a little something up there to suggest that he was older than he was.
- [19:22]
Kate Lister
Is it true that Hitler modeled his mustache on Charlie Chapman?
- [19:26]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Well, that's. That's the question.
- [19:28]
Kate Lister
That's what they say.
- [19:29]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
They say because Charlie was popular, he wanted the same popularity, in a sense. I mean, I can see that.
- [19:35]
Kate Lister
That's so weird.
- [19:35]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
You realize they were born four days apart in the same year.
- [19:38]
Kate Lister
No.
- [19:39]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yes. Charlie's born on the 16th of April and Hitler on the 20th of 1889.
- [19:48]
Kate Lister
Wow. Yeah, that's. That just. That blow my mind. But just the idea that Hitler modeled himself on a comedian, that's so bizarre.
- [19:58]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
It's not. We don't know for sure, but it's a possibility.
- [20:02]
Kate Lister
No, we don't. Okay, Right, so moving past that one then. So we've got a young Charlie Chaplin who. And when you look at photos of him as a young man, he's good looking.
- [20:11]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yes, he's very good looking looking chap.
- [20:13]
Kate Lister
He is. And he's got this newfound fame and the world is at his feet. How does he react to this?
- [20:20]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
He lives very simply initially. Oh, he lives in the various hotels and finally the. Oh, gosh, I'm not gonna be able to think of it. The one downtown that everybody lived in, the Los Angeles Athletic Club. He had a suite in there for many, many years, including on up until he got married for the first time. He was living in the Los Angeles Athletic Club. So he was, you know, not someone to go out and buy a Cadillac or something, you know, in fact, he didn't drive for a long time.
- [20:55]
Kate Lister
So where was his mother during all of this?
- [20:59]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
They put her in increasingly better homes. Okay. But she was still in a home at this point. They did try to start bringing her over, but it was during the war, First World War, and that wasn't going to happen. So I don't think she was over here until the early 1920s. Yeah, but she did come over.
- [21:27]
Kate Lister
I'll be back with Lisa and Charlie after this short break. Are you having issues luring an eligible catch with your piano forte? Are you repeatedly being accused of being a witch just because you're single? Here on Betwixt, we often join historical people in the more stressful times of their lives, but just because we don't run into the exact issues of those in the past doesn't mean that modern lives are easy, does it? And it can all feel so much harder if you can't find a therapist who takes your insurance. Ruler is a healthcare company that makes itself simple to get high quality mental health care that works with your insurance, not against your budget. They partner with over 100 insurance plans and ruler patients typically co pay around $15 per session when using insurance. There are no wait lists, no endless back and forth emails, just real therapy from vetted professionals with appointments available as soon as tomorrow. Visit ruler.comsheets to get started today. That's R U L A.com sheets. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget.
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Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
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- [23:30]
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- [24:34]
Kate Lister
So we've Sort of spoken about the good stuff. Comedic genius and early film star and icon, cultural icon. Change. Change the, the layout of cinema forever. Let's talk about some of the. The not so great stuff you mentioned there. His first marriage. Let's. Let's talk about the. I was going to say the women, but maybe girls is a better word in his life.
- [24:56]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Well, yes, but the first one was. I checked on this. She was actually 17. So they got married in November of 1918. She claimed she was pregnant. She was not.
- [25:08]
Kate Lister
Shotgun marriage.
- [25:09]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Oh, yes.
- [25:10]
Kate Lister
She wasn't.
- [25:10]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
No. He met her at Sam Goldwyn's house at a party or like that. And so they were hideously ill matched for many, many reasons. She did end up becoming pregnant later. And this is another sad story is that the child only lived three days. His name was Norman, but that was Charlie's first child and he is buried in Hollywood. And that kind of was the last straw in terms of that marriage. And so they ended up getting divorced in 1920.
- [25:45]
Kate Lister
How long were they? Only like a year that they were together.
- [25:48]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
About two years.
- [25:49]
Kate Lister
Two years, yeah. Was it. And you said that they were very ill matched. What was it about them that was. That was ill matched?
- [25:56]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Well, Charlie was trying to pretend that he was an intellectual on two years of public school education, but he was hanging out with intellectuals. They loved him, you know. Oh, that's interesting.
- [26:08]
Kate Lister
Okay.
- [26:09]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
He would invite them to the house. Of course, young, young Mildred is not going to be able to participate in those conversations. And Charlie couldn't either. But he was listening, you know, he was in. He was learning.
- [26:20]
Kate Lister
Ah. Why do you think he was doing that? Where do you think that came from?
- [26:24]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
This was something that was a goal for him to become. To raise himself up in terms of his abilities. Reading and writing and thinking, you know.
- [26:34]
Kate Lister
Oh, God, of course. Yeah. He wouldn't have had access to reading and writing when he was. He was growing up, would he?
- [26:40]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
He, as I said, only went to a couple of days of school in second grade or something. Yeah. Very spotty. In fact, I think Sydney had to teach him how to read. His brother Sydney was well read.
- [26:54]
Kate Lister
Where is Sydney, by the way, at this point?
- [26:56]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Sydney continued in. When Charlie came over here in 1914, Sydney was continuing with the music hall because he was a headliner for Carnot. But.
- [27:07]
Kate Lister
So he's doing good.
- [27:07]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yeah. But then he comes over here himself in 15 and he stays over here. So he also gets a contract with Keystone. He's like the consolation prize for Senate because Charlie left after a year. And I said here's my brother.
- [27:23]
Kate Lister
Were they on good terms? The brother?
- [27:25]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yes. Very, very, very close. Yeah.
- [27:28]
Kate Lister
Oh, okay. That's good. So we have this first marriage. It sounds like it ends badly for everybody involved. Was there any sources or any records for you to sort of get a feeling of how. How Charlie felt about that marriage? Because this is still 1920s, 30s. Divorce is still a big deal by this point.
- [27:47]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yes, it is. I think once he found out Mildred was not pregnant to begin with, he was angry.
- [27:54]
Kate Lister
Did she tell that lie on purpose to get married? Was that.
- [27:57]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
I'm assuming? Yes.
- [27:58]
Kate Lister
Oh, I see. Okay. Oh, okay.
- [28:01]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Since that point, I mean, it was. There was no hope, really. And I truly believe that Charlie wasn't ready for marriage until he married Una in 1943.
- [28:10]
Kate Lister
So that is she.
- [28:12]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
She's the fourth.
- [28:14]
Kate Lister
She's the fourth, Charlie. All right. Okay. Let's talk about wife number two.
- [28:19]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Wife number two is the biggest scandal. Sixteen, and they met at 14 or 13. She was in the Kid. She played one of the angels in the Kid. So you saw her last night?
- [28:33]
Kate Lister
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [28:35]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
That's when he met her. And her mother pushed and pushed for that marriage, and Charlie was an idiot. Basically ends up marrying her. He was. Let's see. They got married in 24. He would have been 35, and she was 16.
- [28:54]
Kate Lister
Isn't that illegal? Like, isn't it? That's.
- [28:56]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
It's still not illegal. It's still not illegal here.
- [29:00]
Kate Lister
I suppose that you were saying there that her parents. Her mother was pushing for this.
- [29:04]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yeah.
- [29:04]
Kate Lister
Is that right? Why? Because he's famous?
- [29:07]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
I guess because he's famous and he has a lot of money. She wanted a good life for her child, and she ended up giving her the worst life.
- [29:14]
Kate Lister
Tell me why. Tell me what happened.
- [29:16]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
So. So 24, they married in Mexico. He almost tried to push her off the boat on the way back. That's. That's. That's a myth.
- [29:23]
Kate Lister
What?
- [29:24]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Oh, okay. That was in the papers, though.
- [29:28]
Kate Lister
But that wasn't. That was in the papers, but that didn't actually happen. Was this a violent relationship, though?
- [29:33]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Not violent. Just. Just two people who didn't like each other at all. But they had two children. They had Charlie Jr. And Sydney. And I think she might have been pregnant with Charlie Jr. When they got married. Not sure about that. But he wanted to put her in the gold rush, and that didn't work out. He ends up putting in Georgia Hale as the main character. But they lived in, you know, not Beverly Hills, but close by the Hollywood Hills someplace. It was a Rented house. He had not built his house yet. And he basically left her alone all the time. So he would go out and socialize
- [30:12]
Kate Lister
with whomever like Elvis and Priscilla.
- [30:15]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
And in fact, he was having an affair with, you know, Marion Davies. He was having an affair with her during this marriage.
- [30:21]
Kate Lister
Oh, this isn't good. And you. You said that it was. That it was scandalous. So I guess that means that this attracted negative press at the time.
- [30:28]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yes, yes. This is the first negative press that he gets. He doesn't really get any for the first marriage, but.
- [30:34]
Kate Lister
And what are the kind of headlines?
- [30:36]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Mainly it was because when she filed for divorce in 27, I'm talking Lita, she, her lawyer published a pamphlet and I used to own a copy, I don't think I own any anymore, of the proceedings that was passed out on street corners and stuff. You know what I mean? So it's like a 18 to 20 page paper pamphlet pamphlet with all of the. The testimony and everything. So it's like today we would go to YouTube, you know, and back then they published it. So it had everything like his, you know, supposed weird sexual predilections and things like that.
- [31:14]
Kate Lister
Can you tell us what those were?
- [31:16]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
I think it was just oral sex, to be honest. That's all I remember reading.
- [31:21]
Kate Lister
I was expecting. I was expecting much more than that. But it was the 1930s, I suppose.
- [31:25]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Right.
- [31:26]
Kate Lister
That's. That. So that was printed and handed around. That's kind of wild.
- [31:31]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yes. And we're.
- [31:32]
Kate Lister
So I say that. I say that. And then you think about the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial, which was publicized like around the world, and everybody couldn't get enough of it.
- [31:41]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
So I guess.
- [31:43]
Kate Lister
I guess we haven't changed all that much.
- [31:44]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
No.
- [31:45]
Kate Lister
So what happens to Lita then? They finally have this divorce. She's a child, really. And then she's kind of thrown into this marriage by her mother. She has children, a husband who is absent and having affairs as well. What happens to her?
- [31:59]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
She attempts to stay in entertainment or to go into entertainment. She does sing fairly well. I just saw a short with her in it the other day that Featured Sammy Davis Jr. When he was a child. And she was the main lead. And she. She did a great job. She sounded really good, but she didn't take off. You know, she kept that name, Chaplin. She did get married later on again.
- [32:22]
Kate Lister
Was he blocking her at all? Picasso used to do that with the. The women that he kind of discarded. If they tried to get into the art world, he'd.
- [32:29]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Oh, no, no, I don't think so. I'm sure he wanted her to make money so he didn't have to think about giving her more because he didn't give her that much. I forget how much, like 250,000 or something. I can't remember, but it didn't seem like a whole lot.
- [32:52]
Kate Lister
I'll be back with Lisa and Charlie after this short break.
- [33:00]
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- [34:12]
Kate Lister
So we're two marriages in. We've got our first raft of scandals. Just it's strange when you look back at these things in the past, like the things that they were actually angry about. And then you think about today.
- [34:24]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
I know what the things that we
- [34:25]
Kate Lister
would be angry about. Like we would rightly be angry about the age, but at the time they were angry about blowjobs.
- [34:32]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
It's strange. There was no physical abuse that I know of. There was never reported any physical abuse. So I'm sure a lot of mental though.
- [34:41]
Kate Lister
Yeah. Oh, that's Matthew. So he's. He's having sex with other people as well. Do we know of who he was having affairs with? Who's having flings with?
- [34:51]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Marion Davies, as I said. And also things here and there. Louise Brooks once. Louise Brooks a couple of other people. Not very notable.
- [35:01]
Kate Lister
I've got a strange memory forming in my head. Tell me if I'm hallucinating. But didn't Louise Brooks say something about him having a big penis? Is that if I actually hallucinated that possibly.
- [35:11]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
I. I don't remember.
- [35:13]
Kate Lister
Don't confirm this nonsense. The things that go through my head. So people go and Google that. Don't listen to me. I might have just misremembered that one. Right. Tell me about wife number three.
- [35:24]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Wife number three was three. Pretty amiable compared to the other two. Wife number three was Paulette Goddard, who was born. Her last name is Levy, actually. And she was actually 20 or 21 when they got married. She is the female lead in Modern Times.
- [35:44]
Kate Lister
Okay.
- [35:45]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
And so they didn't marry until after the shooting was over. And they married someplace in the. In Southeast Asia. So there's really no records. But the fact that they had a actual legal divorce suggests to me that they were actually married. You know, good point. Yes.
- [36:02]
Kate Lister
Yes, that makes sense. So we don't have an overbearing mother flinging this one towards Charlie Chaplin. She's not lying and saying that she's pregnant. Could we maybe say that there was genuine affection this time?
- [36:14]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yes, I think so. Yes.
- [36:15]
Kate Lister
Okay.
- [36:17]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
A happy marriage, as long as it could be. She actually strayed, possibly more than he did. He was working on the Great Dictator by the time they got to the Great Dictator, which is only four years later, three years, if you consider production starting. They were estranged by that point. He did hire her as the female lead, but there was a lot of legal stuff going on about when she had to be on set and all this kind of thing.
- [36:49]
Kate Lister
Did they have children?
- [36:50]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
They did not, and she never did. She's been noted to have been with George Gershwin, Diego Rivera, lots of really big guys. And she ends up with Eric Maria Remarque. That's who she ends up as her last husband. And they live in Switzerland, actually, just a few miles from where Charlie's house is in Switzerland. So they were living there at the same time.
- [37:14]
Kate Lister
This is like they just grow apart. Plus kind of having sex with other people, it would seem.
- [37:19]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
I think Paulette's argument is that he didn't spend enough time with her. He was too busy working.
- [37:26]
Kate Lister
That seems to be a pattern. A few of them have said that. Right, right. Workaholic.
- [37:31]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Workaholic, definitely. In fact, they say that he didn't bother with women at all while he was working.
- [37:37]
Kate Lister
Really? That's interesting. Okay. But you wouldn't say that he was cruel to polit. I'm just. Because you said to like his first wife that those might have been.
- [37:46]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
I don't. I haven't seen anything about him being cruel to her except for, you know, not being around is kind of cruel.
- [37:53]
Kate Lister
That's true. That's not spending time. Wife number four.
- [37:59]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Should we talk About Joan Berry between wife number three and.
- [38:02]
Kate Lister
Yes, yes, yes.
- [38:04]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Okay. So June Berry comes in actually during the marriage to Paulette, but at the very end. So he's working on this project about a young Irish girl, and he chooses Joan Barry because she has red hair and she really fits the part of a young Irish girl. But the problem is that she has really huge issues with mental illness and he doesn't know it, you know, so she clomps onto him and won't let go kind of a thing. Now, at the same time, she's also seducing Jay Paul Getty and in fact, the child that Charlie is legally responsible for due to a paternity test that he actually showed that he was not the father, but they didn't include it.
- [38:54]
Bill.com Advertiser
What?
- [38:55]
Kate Lister
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Back up.
- [38:57]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Okay.
- [38:58]
Kate Lister
He what? He wasn't the father, but they said that he had to pay paternity.
- [39:03]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yes, they said that that test could not be entered into the proceedings. This is back in the 40s.
- [39:10]
Kate Lister
She have. That's amazing.
- [39:11]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
I know. So he ended up paying for this child until she was 18, I believe. Quite a bit of money per year. He did do. He did pay that.
- [39:21]
Kate Lister
Wild. Why, that. That sounds crazy to me.
- [39:25]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yeah.
- [39:27]
Kate Lister
Okay. Okay. All right.
- [39:28]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Okay, let's backtrack a little bit, because first he is arrested on the man act. J. J Edgar Hoover has Charlie in his sights by this point. He really wants to railroad him and get him out of the country. I don't know. I have no idea. So J. Edgar Hoover is going to try to find something on Charlie even if there's nothing there. And the first thing he finds, it's a kind of a trumped up charge that Charlie has transported Joan from California to New York for sexual purposes.
- [39:59]
Kate Lister
How old is Joan?
- [40:01]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
She's in her 20s.
- [40:02]
Kate Lister
She's in her 20s?
- [40:03]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yeah.
- [40:03]
Kate Lister
Okay.
- [40:04]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
That's called the man act. You are not allowed to do that. That's the man act. It's a very, very old piece of legislation. It was old then. So that's what he initially gets charged with. He is acquitted of that, and then Joan takes him to court for paternity of the child after that. The child that's not even his.
- [40:25]
Kate Lister
His lawyers are busy, right?
- [40:27]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yeah. Geesler was the lawyer's name.
- [40:30]
Kate Lister
So why do you think that J. Edgar Hoover had his sights on Charlie Chapman? I mean, to a modern ear, that sounds very strange, but obviously this is. Is it the start of McCarthyism and the panic around communism?
- [40:43]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
It is the middle of McCarthy. It's the middle of it, and Charlie is called on the phone. He doesn't go to court. I think they're afraid of him, actually. But he gets out of that. But it's. It's not lasting because when he leaves America for the Limelight premiere, he's not. He's banned at that point. But anyway, that's getting ahead of myself.
- [41:07]
Kate Lister
So where's wife number four in amongst all this?
- [41:11]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Okay, she's at the end of the Joan Barry thing. But just let me say this about J. Edgar Hoover. The reason is that Charlie is mouthing off about stuff that he shouldn't be mouthing off about, including that we should be supporting the Soviets during World War II because they are our allies. So it's called the Second Front Initiative.
- [41:35]
Kate Lister
I see.
- [41:36]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
And he also has a lot of communist friends and, and all this kind of stuff. You know, I truly believe that Charlie doesn't understand the ramifications of some of what he's doing. But it's. It's like giving the final Great Dictator speech at certain events, which is. I don't know if, you know, that speech or not, but it's a very. It's a very political speech, you know, So I think that's why he get. Comes into, you know, J. Edgar Hoover's purview kind of. Anyway, so at the end of the Barry trials, he's. He's defeated on the paternity, has to pay the paternity fees. And then during an. Someone roundabout, this area, he meets Oona Chaplin. She is trying to get a part. She is Eugene o' Neill's daughter. She's Una o' Neill at this point. I'm sorry, so our great. One of our greatest playwrights, she's his daughter. And o', Neill, the father and Charlie are about the same age. However, o' Neill has married a woman called Carlotta Monterey, who wants him to kind of disown his children. So Una and her brother Shane are kind of at loose ends. They're having to figure out a way on their own. Una decides to go into modeling first and then to try to get some parts in Hollywood. And round and about there, Charlie meets her and actually their marriage occurs quickly. June 1943. Amidst all this hubbub, is public opinion
- [43:13]
Kate Lister
starting to turn against Charlie Chapman? Oh, it is, right. It's not just the FBI and those people coming to get him like this. He's getting bad headlines. And is it the communist thing?
- [43:24]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
It's the communist thing. It's also his. His film called Monsieur Verdu, which came out in 1947, which. In which he plays a serial killer.
- [43:35]
Kate Lister
Ah, right. I haven't seen that one. Okay.
- [43:39]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
So that's his first big role after the tr. You know.
- [43:43]
Kate Lister
Yeah.
- [43:43]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
So he leaves the Tramp behind in the Great Dictator.
- [43:46]
Kate Lister
So imagine going to the cinema and thinking that you're gonna go and see Charlie Chaplin in his latest movie and you've just seen the Tramp and then suddenly he's a serial killer. That's right, right.
- [43:57]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Of his wives. He's a Bluebeard. Oh, yeah.
- [44:00]
Kate Lister
Okay. So public opinion is starting to turn against him.
- [44:05]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yes.
- [44:05]
Kate Lister
And you mentioned earlier about how he. He wasn't allowed back into the United States at one point.
- [44:11]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Right there. His next film, Limelight, which is very endearing and sweet and all that sort of thing. He plays an aging music hall star in that one who meets a young ballerina, you know, which is a kind of a play on his own situation with Oona. When he goes to London for the premiere, he's blocked from ever returning to the US at that point unless he submits to a huge interrogation, which he's not going to do. So he just, you know, gave him the five fingered salute and found a new home.
- [44:47]
Kate Lister
How did he feel about that, about not being allowed back into America?
- [44:49]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Oh, he was devastated. I mean, he was very angry to the press about it, but he was devastated. He loved America, so.
- [44:56]
Kate Lister
And that. That was because of the communist. That can't have been because they didn't like his film, can it?
- [45:03]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
No, it's that he was considered to be a communist. Yes. Even though he wasn't.
- [45:09]
Kate Lister
So he's kind of. He's like. I was gonna say he's out in the wilderness, but he's actually out in Switzerland. But he's kind of isolated from Hollywood at this point. Does he continue making films?
- [45:18]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
He does try to make. He makes two films over there. One in England. Actually. They're both in England. I think both bombed. So the last one was with Sophia Loren and Marlon Brando. But it's. It's the worst of the worst. Oh, I have to say that it's the favorite of some people that I know, so I shouldn't say that.
- [45:39]
Kate Lister
Does he get any kind of like rehabilitation into America during his lifetime?
- [45:45]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yes, the Oscars, which have just passed here. So in 1972, he's invited to come back to America to receive a lifetime achievement award at the Oscars. So he makes. That actually doesn't want to do it. I think Unik talked him into it. I'm not sure.
- [46:05]
Kate Lister
But they go to New York still with Una.
- [46:08]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
She's with him to the death. Yes.
- [46:10]
Kate Lister
Okay.
- [46:10]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yeah. She's the final. She's the one. He's. He's finally ready for marriage by the time he marries her. So they start in New York. There's several events in New York. And then they go to Los Angeles for the Oscars. And he does. Goes to a lot of parties there. And he's really kind of very feeble at this point.
- [46:29]
Kate Lister
Okay.
- [46:30]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Because he's in his 80s, you know, so he goes to the Oscars for the one and only time. The lifetime achievement award is the last award of the night. And he receives a 12 minute ovation, which has not been surpassed to this day.
- [46:47]
Kate Lister
Oh, wow. So that sounds like they were ready to welcome him back in.
- [46:51]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Absolutely. Yeah.
- [46:53]
Kate Lister
Wow. Okay. And then. And then he dies. 1977. There's this really weird story about how his coffin was stolen. Is that.
- [47:03]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yes, it is true.
- [47:04]
Kate Lister
That is true, yes. What happened?
- [47:07]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
These two, I believe they were from Eastern Europe, I can't remember what country dug him up and held the body for ransom. They reburied him in a cornfield in Switzerland, which is now marked, and people go to visit it.
- [47:20]
Kate Lister
That's deranged.
- [47:21]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
I know. And held him for ransom. And they found out who these guys were and were able to, you know, put them into custody before any money changed hands or anything. And he was reinstated in this little tiny cemetery in Vevey, Switzerland, and now he's in lead. So.
- [47:45]
Kate Lister
That's insane. That's like something out of a Hollywood movie. That's just the maddest.
- [47:51]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yeah.
- [47:51]
Kate Lister
Thing that you kidnap. And he'd been dead for a year right when they did that. Oh, Charlie.
- [47:59]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Yeah. I don't think he would have found that funny somehow. I just.
- [48:01]
Kate Lister
No, I don't. I don't think so. No. Oh, Lisa, you have been fantastic to talk to. Thank you so much.
- [48:08]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Thank you.
- [48:09]
Kate Lister
If people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?
- [48:13]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Well, just look up Lisa Steinhaven.
- [48:15]
Kate Lister
Amazing. Thank you so much. You've been a treat.
- [48:18]
Dr. Lisa Steinhaven
Oh, thank you.
- [48:23]
Kate Lister
Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to Lisa for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to, like, review and follow along wherever you get your podcasts. Coming up, we've got episodes on Victorian sex trafficking and another taking you inside the brothels of Storyville, New Orleans. If you want us to explore a subject or if you just wanted to say hello, you can email us@betwixtistoryhit.com this podcast was edited by Hannah Feodorov and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Freddie Chick. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets the History of Sex Scandal in Society A podcast by History hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.
- [49:03]
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- [49:21]
Kate Lister
Support is available 247 with VRBoCare. We're here day or night, ready whenever you need help because a great trip starts with the right support.