The Truth About Medusa

Summary

Summary of "The Truth About Medusa" Episode from Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society

Release Date: April 29, 2025
Host: Kate Lister
Guest: Jasmine Elmir

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Introduction

In the episode titled "The Truth About Medusa," host Kate Lister delves deep into the intricate mythology surrounding Medusa, exploring her origins, symbolism, and the modern reinterpretations that have emerged, particularly through feminist lenses. Joined by guest Jasmine Elmir, a friend of the show and author, they unravel the complexities of Medusa's story and its enduring legacy.

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Medusa’s Origin and Mythological Context

The conversation begins with Kate setting the scene in ancient Greece, humorously acknowledging the challenging meeting place—a cave—where Medusa resides. Kate expresses a desire to hear Medusa’s side of the story, emphasizing the lack of her voice in traditional myths.

Notable Quote:
"She has snakes for hair, can turn men to stone, and lives isolated on the edge of the world. If I could turn people to stone just by looking at them, I wouldn't be fucking living on an island somewhere."
— Kate Lister (24:11)

Jasmine elaborates on Medusa's background, explaining that Medusa was once a beautiful maiden and a priestess of Athena. However, her life took a tragic turn when Poseidon violated her in Athena's temple. Instead of punishing Poseidon, Athena punished Medusa by transforming her into the infamous monster with snake hair and the ability to turn onlookers to stone.

Notable Quote:
"In Greek myth, most monsters live at the edges of the known world because they are ostracized. Medusa is no exception—she's chucked to the edge of the world, ripped from her previous life."
— Jasmine Elmir (22:26)

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Symbolism and Interpretation

The discussion moves to the rich symbolism embedded in Medusa’s character. Kate and Jasmine dissect various interpretations, including Freudian analysis, which suggests that Medusa represents emasculation fears, with her severed head symbolizing the vagina and the act of her decapitation reflecting castration anxiety.

Notable Quote:
"Medusa is an emasculating figure. Her face and severed head represent the vagina and the fear of castration."
— Kate Lister (20:07)

Jasmine challenges this perspective, arguing that while such interpretations center on male fears and patriarchy, Medusa's power to turn men to stone can also signify her own agency and influence. She emphasizes that Medusa embodies the fear of female sexual power, showcasing how women who possess autonomy are often demonized.

Notable Quote:
"Medusa has a lot of power. Men want to look at her because she is either beautiful or a monster. There's a two-way interaction here that symbolizes a sexualized interplay between men and women."
— Jasmine Elmir (22:48)

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Reclamation of Medusa in Modern Feminism

The episode highlights the resurgence of Medusa as a symbol of female empowerment, especially in the wake of movements like MeToo. Jasmine discusses how contemporary authors and public figures are reinterpreting Medusa’s story, shifting the narrative from victimhood to strength and resilience.

Notable Quote:
"After the MeToo movement, there's been a lot of interest in Medusa as a figure of subversion, where a victim is able to reclaim her power."
— Jasmine Elmir (26:06)

Kate points out that traditionally, Medusa never had a voice in the myths, reinforcing her victimization. Modern reinterpretations aim to give her a voice, allowing Medusa to express her own narrative and agency.

Notable Quote:
"The women never do, and that's why there's so much interest in giving these women a voice, especially in literature."
— Jasmine Elmir (27:36)

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Medusa’s Enduring Legacy and Modern Relevance

The conversation concludes with reflections on why Medusa remains a compelling figure. Jasmine appreciates how myths like Medusa's can be reexamined to offer insights into contemporary societal issues, particularly regarding gender dynamics and power structures.

Notable Quote:
"Medusa is one of the best examples of how ancient myths can be reexamined through a new lens to learn something about ourselves."
— Jasmine Elmir (30:23)

Kate affirms the fascination with Medusa, underscoring her multifaceted symbolism and the ongoing dialogue around her character in modern culture.

Notable Quote:
"She’s fascinating and keeps the myth alive because these are old stories that continue to evolve and stay relevant."
— Jasmine Elmir (30:28)

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Conclusion

In "The Truth About Medusa," Kate Lister and Jasmine Elmir offer a nuanced exploration of Medusa's mythology, uncovering layers of symbolism related to gender, power, and societal norms. The episode not only sheds light on ancient Greek perspectives but also celebrates the modern reclamation of Medusa as a symbol of female strength and empowerment. This deep dive invites listeners to reconsider traditional narratives and appreciate the enduring complexity of mythological figures like Medusa.

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Transcript

[Kate Lister]

Hi, I'm your host, Kate Lister. If you would like Betwixt the Sheets ad free and get early access, sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every single week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe. Hello, my lovely betwixters, it's me, Kate Lister. You are listed to Betwixt the Sheets, but it is of an adult spider spicy nature. This podcast. So despite the fact that we've been going for three years and I'm sure that people must know what we're doing here by now, I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast book about other adults, about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. And now, fair dues, we have warned you. So, on with the show. I know this isn't the most glamorous of meeting places, but we're here in a cave in ancient Greece, so it's got that going for it. But it's still a cave. But we are here for a very good reason. Somewhere in here is none other than Medusa. Have you seen her? Well, if the myth is to be believed, she would turn you to stone if you had, so I guess not. But has anyone actually spoken to Medusa, heard her side of the story? Have they? Hell, I'd love to sit down with her and find out about how she ended up in this predicament before that knob Perseus shows up and starts trying to be a hero. What a twat he was. Let's go deeper into the cave and see if we can find her. What do you look for? A man.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Oh, money. Of course, you're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.

[Kate Lister]

I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Goodness. What beautiful diamond.

[Kate Lister]

Goodness had nothing to do with it, deari. Hello and welcome back to Betwix the Sheets, the history of Sex Scandal in society, with me, Kate Lister. Greek myths were a fabulous oral tradition that tell us a lot about fantastical characters. But they do actually tell us quite a lot about the world that they were told in. Their values, their fears, the fact that nobody should be shagging their relatives, all kinds of useful things. And Medusa is a prime example of this. It is an insane and bonkers story featuring snake hair and winged boots and a helmet of invisibility. But it's also a tale and a portrayal of women's sexuality and victim shaming. Joining me today to explore all of this and the lasting legacy of Medusa is friend of the show and all round fabulous person, Jasmine Elmit. All right, everyone, have you got your mirrors ready? Then let's do it. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, it's only Jasmine Elmir. How are you doing?

[Jasmine Elmir]

I'm good, thank you. I'm back again. So I didn't mess up the first one, so that's a winner.

[Kate Lister]

You were fabulous. I had so much fun talking to you. How's the book going? When we last met you, your book, Goddess of a Thousand Faces was just about. It was crowning, it was getting ready to be. To be born.

[Jasmine Elmir]

What a disgusting. Sorry, sorry. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Now all I can think about is you're fully dilated.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah, let's not. Let's not. That book's gone now. Yeah, it's out in the world. It was born in this really weird description that you're going with. Yeah, so it's gone really well. I'm actually. You know what it's like with. With authors. That book's gone and flown in, out into the world. Now I'm on the second book.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, well done, mate.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Which officially got announced today. So I can actually say words about it.

[Kate Lister]

Can you tell us the words?

[Jasmine Elmir]

I can. The words are. It's called Slay and it's about female dragon slayers and the symbolism of dragons.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, fabulous.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yes. They do exist. I know. You're like, do they exist? They do exist.

[Kate Lister]

No, I believe you entirely. I believe everything you tell me. Yeah.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Oh, good. That's a good career. Just make stuff up then.

[Kate Lister]

Well, but we are here to talk about. She's not really a dragon, but she's certainly a monster. Medusa.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah. Well, actually, there is. She's sort of like the sort of dragon, because when there are serpents involved in Greek mythology, we consider them a dragon of some sort. Yeah. So she's sort of like borderline. If you've got a snake, you got a dragon. That's what the. That's the sort of way that the Greeks approach it.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, right.

[Jasmine Elmir]

So, yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, okay. Well, see, I'm learning things already. Right. What do I know about Medusa? And for anyone else that's listening, I can't imagine there's anyone listening going, I don't know what Medusa is, but just in case, lady with the snakes, can you elaborate more on that?

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yes, Well, I mean, Medusa, as you know, very famous image, is probably what more people Might pop into their head. But I don't know if people know her story. So she was a very beautiful maiden and priestess of the goddess Athena. And there are different versions of the myth, as always with Greek myth. Right, different versions, but mainly Poseidon, the sea God, violates her in the temple of Athena.

[Kate Lister]

Right, okay.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah, it's definitely a fucking hell moment. And if you want a double fucking hell, you should have saved it, really. Athena then punishes Medusa, not Poseidon.

[Kate Lister]

Double fucking hell. Wow.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Double fucking hell. By transforming her into the monster that we see, the sort of snaky haired, scary monster. And famously, obviously she is this woman that has these snaky hair, but also if she looks at you, you turn to stone.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Isn't that awful? This is terrible, isn't it?

[Kate Lister]

That's a terrible origin story, isn't it? Before we get into, like, how that develops, I'm hoping that you're going to say yes, but I think I might know how it's going to go. Is there anything in the sources that like, you were encouraged to think, well, that was a really unfair thing to have done? What? I mean, that was completely unjustified in what you did, or is it sort of just accepted as like. Yeah, that sounds about right.

[Jasmine Elmir]

I bet you can answer your own question there.

[Kate Lister]

Really?

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah, I know it's ancient. It's the ancient world. It's a patriarchy. What do you think happened? Yeah, this is going to be like the least informative thing, like guess for yourself. But because it's a patriarchy, the perspective here is not usually in favor of Medusa, but not. That's not to say that you can read some more slightly more sympathetic, perhaps viewpoints like Ovid, maybe a little bit more sympathetic. That's not sugarcoat yet. The blame here is mainly on Medusa in antiquity. That's the way it's. It's perceived, which is a real. Well, I still can't get my head around it, even though I'm an expert in this area. I still can't understand even even though I know the historical context. It just seems completely, just completely inhumane to ever think like that, regardless of what's going on in society. It just seems mad to me.

[Kate Lister]

But it also tracks with Greek myths in general because Medusa's not the only character in their pantheon to have been assaulted by a God. And then they're the ones to have been punished. I can't remember names, but like someone got turned into a tree and somebody else, like, you know, like when all of this stuff is never very justifiable, but. So she was a priestess and a beautiful priestess.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah. I mean, like, in most of the sources, she's really beautiful and dedicated to Athena as a priestess. I mean, in terms of. In Greek. In the Greek view, like the perfect type of woman. You know, she looks beautiful. She is, you know, religious in the sense that she's, you know, dedicating herself to. To a goddess. She's doing all the tick, tick, tick things that you should do as a. As a Greek woman, really, until this thing happens. The majority of it is Poseidon forcing himself upon her. Not that she willingly does that. Yeah, yeah, but, yeah, you're right, absolutely. It is the narrative that the onus is on the woman to protect herself, her chastity. She's the one that's in the wrong, which is. Yeah, I know. I mean, I think you've done the noise. Let's just leave the noise there. That's it.

[Kate Lister]

The thing about these kind of stories and myths is they are passed along orally, which makes it very difficult to trace. But what are some of the earliest written accounts that we have of Medusa?

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah, totally. Right. So it is important to note that it is an oral tradition, so I think people get quite interested in the earliest source material and just date it to that. But it is older than that. Definitely. How old? Can't tell you. But these are originally stories that people are telling each other across campfires in houses, what have you. So remember that. I think it's quite important. But the earliest source is Hesiod, which is sort of 8th century. So in terms of what we have for source material, it's along the earliest. So it's an old, old myth for the Greeks. It's one of. One of the earlier documented myths.

[Kate Lister]

And am I right in thinking she had sisters? Because in my. My recounting of this myth, which admittedly is based on. I don't know what it's based on. It's probably not based on anything sensible, but. Did the sisters also have snakes for hair? They can't have been assaulted by Poseidon in a temple as well.

[Jasmine Elmir]

No, no, that's the Gorgons that you're. Yes, that's.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you. Yes, the Gorgons.

[Jasmine Elmir]

And they're. They are three. Pout. So she's one of them. Right. Three powerful kind of winged creature things, essentially. So they don't have the snaky bit. That's Medusa.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, right.

[Jasmine Elmir]

But the other two are essentially kind of, you know, if we think of Medusa more as a Mortal. They are more immortal because they have this kind of powerful ability almost as a trio. But Medusa has her own storyline that's kind of more specific. The other two are. Are mentioned and they're important, but they're less important than Medusa. It's the story of Medusa that the Greeks really kind of focus in on. So we don't hear as much about the Gorgons.

[Kate Lister]

No. And then I don't suppose to give us any details on, like, was. Was Medusa a sister to the Gorgons before she got turned into a monster? Or, like, was. Why was she going to work in a temple if she was a monster? This is probably just one of those Greek things where they've just mashed it all together and gone. Look, don't stop. Stop asking us questions about this.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah, you're right. You're right. I think when you try and trace like a timeline like that and you try and think of how a storyline emerges, it's quite hard. Are they sisters first? And, I mean, I think most of the time she becomes lumped in with these guys as a trio, really.

[Kate Lister]

But it's like, merge their sisters.

[Jasmine Elmir]

It's all kind of murky. I think that's the best way.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Jasmine Elmir]

And I know it's annoying for us modern people who like a full plot line sorted out and then we can kind of follow it and it's got a nice trajectory. But these things are like, think of mythology. It's live, isn't it? It's like almost like a living creature. It's always changing itself. So a bit like Medusa.

[Kate Lister]

Now, the most immediate story that people think of with Medusa is the one with Perseus. So can you tell us that story and where does that come from? So we'll flesh out her background story because it wasn't just that she was horribly assaulted and then she was punished and she has sisters of questionable origin. There's a whole story that emerges with Medusa. She shouldn't stop there.

[Jasmine Elmir]

No. And again, this is another, I would say, kind of Greek myth trope that we always get where you can't have a baddie, a monster, especially a girly one that isn't going to get taken out by a male hero. So it's part of the heroic cycle. So that's why we need him. Right. So, as expected, there's a monster and along comes Perseus, who is the son of Zeus, and his job is to behead Medusa, but he gets help from the gods, as is often the way. So Athena gives him a shield and Hermes gives him these little winged sandals. And Hades gives him this sort of hat of invincibility. Invisibility, not invincibility. That was gonna say.

[Kate Lister]

That's handy. Wow.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Invisibility. And he goes off to find Medusa at the edge of the world.

[Kate Lister]

And he's minding her own fucking business, by the way.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Just knocking on the edge of the world. Just knocking about on the edge of the world as usual. And he beheads her.

[Kate Lister]

How does he do this?

[Jasmine Elmir]

Everyone loves this one, don't they? Because it's in. Everything is in all. It's in all that. It's all in all of the movies and the books, everything. He uses the reflection of his shield so he doesn't have to look directly at her to sort of find out where she is and then lop it off, you know, head flinging in the dust. Do you like that rolling around in the dust too much?

[Kate Lister]

It's all right. It's. I mean, it's a very dramatic story, isn't it? And, like, you know, if you're. If you're making a film of it, that's your sort of. That's your money shot, isn't it? That Perseus turns up, he cuts her head off. We don't ask any questions about why this little upstart has just basically broken into her house and cut her head off where she's still the monster. Like, what did she do to him at all? Nothing.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah, I can help you with that as well.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, God. Tell me.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Well, I mean, like I said. Yes, I can see from our perspective that that don't sound fair, but in terms of Greek myth, this needs to happen because remember that. Well, I know we're going to get into this, but what does Medusa symbolize to the Greeks? And when you have a monster of any sorts, we'll get into a nuance in a bit, but when you have a monster of any sorts, that monster needs to be vanquished by a hero, usually a bloke. And so this needs to happen because of that. But just a little side point, because the people don't always know this, but when Medusa's head gets knocked off and she starts bleeding, what pops out of her decapitated. Well, from her decapitated body, I guess, is the winged horse, Pegasus, and this giant called Creosaur, which we don't really see anything. Anything else of ever. But you get Pegasus out of it.

[Kate Lister]

Right? Okay. Okay.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah, I know. And that is the reaction I wanted, Kate. Like, Right, okay, right. Why? Okay, what's that about? In myth, though, as everything is always cyclical, there's always like, these stories evolve. You've got as well. What I find interesting. Pegasus later is involved in the killing of another dragon. The Chimera, rode by Bellerophon, the hero, Bellerathon. So it's like, when you look at dragon stories, I know you're thinking, this ain't a dragon, but like I said to you before, to Greeks, if it's got snakes in it, it's dragons to some degree. They tend to have like this evolution that they pop up in the next one. Like the sequel, there's like, you kind of get that character that carries on. It's like, oh, Pegasus is carrying on to now kill and help kill another dragon. It always keeps evolving and moving. So it's quite. It's quite a little family, often of dodgy dragons that are connected in this thing.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Jasmine and Medusa after this short break. There's a lot of symbolism in this Medusa thing. There's like, you can just pull it apart with so many different things. What is your take on it? Because you've got. She's a woman. She's quite clearly a woman. She was once beautiful. There is a kind of like a weird sense that she's avenging herself on all mankind. And then there's the snakes as well. And the fact that her head is decapitated whenever a sword turns up. Me being the pervert, I am, I'm thinking phallus. Like the fact that Perseus decapitates her with his sword. And also, what's your take on who this character is?

[Jasmine Elmir]

I mean, that's. It's really nuanced. And there's loads of, like, levels to this, which is fascinating about her. But, you know, you just said about the sword and the phallus. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's all sorts of sexual imagery in all of this. So I'm going to start with my favorite, though, which is the furthest, most mad one, really. I'm not saying I agree with this, but I love it. Which is Freud. Freud wrote an essay on this. He was in the 20s and it was obviously. No, he's like. So there's this idea that Medusa. The thing about Medusa, obviously, is that she turns men to stone. Often it's men in mythology. There's no examples of women, men to stone. And that could be some kind of euphemism for erection as well as her hair, her Snaky hair representing female pubic region, shall we call it? So it's literally what happens when a vagina looks at a penis.

[Kate Lister]

Technically, he did take a lot of cocaine.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Did.

[Kate Lister]

Froze.

[Jasmine Elmir]

I don't know what he was doing.

[Kate Lister]

But it's weird that you'd bring that one up. Cause I was reading about that one not so long ago, and I was trying to, like, make sense of it. Cause another idea he has about Medusa is that her face or a severed head represents the site of castration. Yes. And you kind of. I'm sorry, could you just go over that one one more time? Freud. Just from the top. I don't really get what you're talking about. But he had this thing about castration anxiety, didn't he? I mean, who isn't anxious about castration? But what did he mean about that? There's no one out there. Like, I'm fine with this.

[Jasmine Elmir]

You know when you're at school and your maths teacher says, show me you're working, I want to know what he's working is. I want to know the steps he gets to.

[Kate Lister]

Yes.

[Jasmine Elmir]

To get to that conclusion. And the problem is there aren't any. It's just like, oh, maybe this is. This dude. I mean, Freud is a really interesting bit. I'm like, is that. Is that what the Greeks are thinking? No, but I think we can definitely take a great number of kind of like male fears about sexual. Female sexual power from Medusa that we can almost certainly take from the original myth and the original Greek context. You know, we've got to remember that this is a very beautiful woman that is punished for her sexual power. And, you know, from her perspective, no men are even allowed to look at her. There's not allowed to look at her because you will turn to stone. So for. I mean, I'm not saying she was vain like this, but for a beautiful woman, that is a really awful thing in a Greek context. I mean, maybe even in the modern context. I don't know. It depends how you're feeling. Right. So she is damned to be this monster, like I say, chucked on the edge of the world, ripped out from her, you know, kind of life as it was. And then men aren't allowed to look at her. And she is utterly isolated. And I think there's so much as well that we can look into about victim blaming and that culture, which I know we could look at from a modern point of view, but in an ancient point of view, it just shows you how horrific the attitudes are to these sorts of issues is on the woman, and it's the woman's fault. And that was often seen as the case even in Greek society. So, you know, people don't know that a lot about Greek society, how women were very much, you know, kind of closed off. Like, they lived in. They lived upstairs in their own quarters. They had to be escorted by men. Obviously, they don't have any of the powers that. That we share today. You know, be able to vote and all that. None of that. None of that. You go out, they're often kind of covered in headdresses and stuff. They're very chaste kind of appearance. And you, you know, you're guarding your virginity, and it's your job almost to look after all of that, which is ridiculous. And so the Medusa story is very much a really important part of that. And I think the fact that she becomes a monster shows you how the Greeks are really afraid of a woman who has any sexual power and really wants to show what can happen to a woman that has sexual power.

[Kate Lister]

I think what Freud was getting at in his odd Freudy kind of a way, it was a very fancy way of saying that Medusa is an emasculating figure. I think all of his, like, oh, her face and the severed head represents the vagina, and that's gonna sever a penis and blah, blah, blah. I think that kind of what's underneath that is that she is an emasculating figure. What do you think?

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know if that. The reason I'm hesitating is. Cause, I don't know, maybe this is my modern bias. I'm just trying to, like, see if I can just shoot that to the side a little bit. But there's something about this that I think is so much more nuanced than that, even in the Greek thinking, that I'm not as comfortable saying. Yeah, that's right. It's not that I don't think it's right. I think that we're taking something away from her.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Jasmine Elmir]

That makes me uncomfortable because it's. It's not just about her emasculating men. This is also about. Some people talk about this as what power she does continue to hold on to and how there is power in her ability to turn men into stone, you know?

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Jasmine Elmir]

So I. I think this is where. When we're looking at. From a more modern point of view, we get. We get many layers of meaning. And I think that's why she's been so taken into sort of the modern mindset, you know, kind of imagination today and become many different things. Is she emasculating? I mean, yeah, maybe, but I don't know, I just see her as more powerful than that. I just don't. I don't know if that just typecast her into something.

[Kate Lister]

One of Freud's many problems is that he can never see outside of the many problems. Listen to me, Mouth, enough telling Freud where he's got things wrong. We're gonna do it anyway. He can never quite relate to a woman's experience because it's not his own. He can only understand of a vagina as not being a penis. He can only understand a woman as not being a man. So his interpretation of Medusa as emasculating, again, it's centering the male experience within that of like. Well, men are very scared of her. So that must be. Never mind the fact that, well, men did that to her.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah, I get you, you know, I get it. But what I think is really interesting is that like Medusa has a lot of power. Like these men want to look at her because she.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, they go to her. Right.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Either she was beautiful or because she's a monster. Either way, whichever part of the story, people want to look at her. Men, let's say men want to look at her. And so where's the power then? Because she's drawing their gaze and then she looks back at them. They have to look at her for shit to get real.

[Kate Lister]

Which isn't an active thing to do.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah, so. But I just think that there's that kind of interaction. Yeah, yeah, it's a two way thing. Like that man might have some aspect, but then she's looking back at him and there's this kind of two way thing. Right. And it's all about this kind of, I guess, sexualized interplay between men and women and mate. You're right. It absolutely centers in the male perspective about this and the male fears about these women. But at the core of that is the fear of women that hold their sexual power at the core of that and what they become, they become monstrous. Remember, a monster is something that we, we're terrified of, we don't like, and we want to chuck at the edge of the world. Remember in Greek myth, most, most monsters live, not all of them, but a lot of them live at the edges of the known world, edges of civilization. Because what we're saying is you have been ostracized. Get out. You need to be over there because you're not part of your things. That we don't really want to. It's similar to like, you know, Floyd will love it, right? It's. It's things that we suppress in our subconscious. It's like, let's get it over there. It's not. It's not something that's around us. It's a way. And that's what I mean about being nuanced and complicated because it's personal as well to an individual experience.

[Kate Lister]

Because if I could turn people to stone just by looking at them and had snakes for hair, I wouldn't be fucking living on an island somewhere. I. I would be marching my way into civilization. Would. What are you gonna do?

[Jasmine Elmir]

That just says a lot about you though, doesn't it, really?

[Kate Lister]

That just says that.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Not about you.

[Kate Lister]

Heading straight to the bank of England. What are you gonna do?

[Jasmine Elmir]

I'm a bit scared that they ever give you the nuclear coats. What are you gonna do with them? If that's your attitude, It's a bit gung ho, isn't it?

[Kate Lister]

Let's talk about the snakes, though. Like, why? What are the snakes? Because it could have been anything. But that is one of her defining features, isn't it, the snakes?

[Jasmine Elmir]

For hair, Few layers. Again, you'll love this because there's always a few layers. I think on one hand there's this idea that she had beautiful hair and that was one of her best qualities on a practical level. So let's turn it into something yuck. Then you've got the idea of the snake and how it can be connected to both female fertility sometimes, but also the phallus again, it being a bit like a schlong. Yeah, whatever word you want to use it. Snake, little snake in the pants, whatever you want to think about it as. Then you've got this other layer that she belongs to a wider family of dragon like creatures. So like the Dracontes are this kind of like anything that's got a serpent is part of this. So then she belongs to this kind of group of like uber monsters that we see in all over mythology. So you've got like, you know, you've got Skilla, you've got Typhon, you've got, oh my God, Hydra, you've got all these different, you know, dragons. So in lots of ways remember that when these myths are being told, that symbolism would then echo in the minds of the Greeks and they go, oh, she's one of them, which is a bad monster. So we're getting into that as well. There's this idea, I guess as well, like snakes have venom, they bite, they hiss. And that is a kind of like, I guess, a very visceral feeling of being around that kind of fear. It's like the real feeling of the fear of being around this woman. So there's quite a lot of stuff in it in terms of symbolism. Just the snakes on their own.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. So, I mean, Medusa, she went through a lot. But I have noticed in recent years, I say recent years, it's probably been maybe sort of like since the 80s, 90s, maybe even before that, that she is being reclaimed more and more by. By feminists. How are they reading her story?

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah, I mean, that's one of the most. I think. I really like. I think this is great. I mean, there's been obviously a few mythical retellings around Medusa. So Natalie Haynes wrote Stone Blind a few years back, I think, and Rosie Hewlett wrote about Medusa, where they obviously centering on the story of Medusa. And I think after the. The MeToo movement, there's a lot of interest in her as a figure of subversion, where a victim is able to reclaim her power. Did you see Rihanna dressed up as Medusa for a magazine? Vogue or gq or something like that? I can't remember when it was. If you Google Rihanna and Medusa, you'll find it. So there's a lot about what does it look like when women choose to take a figure? I mean, this is a movement anyway, and I'm involved in this while I do my writing. Right. But what. What does it mean when a woman can reclaim this figure as an empowering image, not as a victim. And as. As we have discussed her in a kind of more historic sense. So there's been loads of interest in her. That's great. I mean, it's really. What we're trying to say is stuff, the patriarchy, that's the bottom line.

[Kate Lister]

It's interesting that Medusa never really has a voice in the myth, does she? I'm not aware of her getting any lines in any of the story.

[Jasmine Elmir]

The women never do. And that's an important point. Kate, you're right. This is why there's so much interest in giving, especially in literature, giving these women a voice, giving them a chance to voice. I mean, imagined, of course, but giving themselves a voice. So, yeah, you're right. That is not a thing we don't hear in mythology very often, the stories from the women themselves. Usually, if you're going to get that, you get them in Greek tragedy, in the plays, you might get women then, but not Necessarily Medusa. But for example, Euripides is Medea. So we hear from Medea, obviously in that. But remember, it's written by bloody Euripides, isn't it? And it's for a largely male audience. So even then it's, it's not, you know, it's not like a free flowing voice. So yeah, you're right, it's about reclaiming that too, isn't it?

[Kate Lister]

You can see why her story would hit such a Note, especially post MeToo. The fact that like she was so unfairly treated quite obviously and then she becomes this like avenging. Well, is she an avenging character? Because she sort of just lives on her island and as you said, people keep coming to her. So if you don't want to get killed, leave her alone. Just fucking.

[Jasmine Elmir]

I loved. I feel like you just want to be. I feel like you want to knock off to a little place on the edge of the world and be left alone. I do.

[Kate Lister]

And if teenagers kept turning up to try and cut my head off, I'd turn them into stone as well, quite frankly. And there's not a court in the land that would convict me. I was going to ask you, do you think that Medusa is an empowering story after like everything that you've read about her and you know about her? Because it's easy to sort of like reclaim her without really looking into the background of it. And she's become more of a symbol than an actual story. But what do you think? Is she an empowering character?

[Jasmine Elmir]

I think that's really interesting. I don't know that I'd call her empowering actually, but I think like, I mean, I think of a really exciting adjective now to like describe what I actually would say. But basically I really like how we can take figures from the ancient world and reexamine them through a new lens to learn something about ourselves. So I love that myth can have these like nuanced layers that continue to keep on giving. And I think her one is an excellent, excellent example of that. And that's what I find about. If you want to call that empowering, then for some people that would be empowering. That experience of doing that would be empowering. I think for me, I don't know if it's just because I'm a geek or something, but I just think it's just really fascinating.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, she, I mean, she's that and she, she's fascinating.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah, there we go. There's one. Fascinating.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Jasmine Elmir]

I don't know. I love that. It keeps it alive. Like, these are old stories that have, like, long gone. You know, we're not. But we're still engaging with it. And that's what myth is about. Like, it doesn't need to die off and be in the past. It can, can keep evolving. And I love that about. And I think she just is one of the best examples of that. So that's why I think she's, she's up the top there on my, like, hall of fame of, I don't know, cool, cool myths or whatever legend.

[Kate Lister]

I'm. So are you. Jasmine, thank you so much for coming back to talk to me again. If people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

[Jasmine Elmir]

They can get me on the old insta. I've changed my new handle. It's now IstoryWithSoul, which doesn't sound very easy to say, does it? So just write my name, Jasmin Elmer in and that'll come up. But that's because that's my brand of history. History that we can feel in our hearts, not just our heads. So it's history and soul.

[Kate Lister]

I love that. Oh, nice. Will you come back again and talk to us about more myths?

[Jasmine Elmir]

Eyesoul.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you so much. You've been amazing. Thank you so much for listening and thanks to Jasmine for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to, like, review and follow along wherever it is you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email [e-mail] Coming up, we've got the first episode in a new miniseries on beauty standards throughout history, starting with the always appalling Romans, as well as an episode on female Executioners. This podcast was edited by Tom Delaghi and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again. Betwixt the Sheets, the history of Sex scandal in society, a podcast by history hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.