The Truth About The Minotaur

Summary

Episode Summary: "The Truth About The Minotaur"

Podcast: Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Host: Kate Lister
Guest: Jasmine Elmir, Historian and Author
Release Date: May 30, 2025

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1. Introduction to the Minotaur Myth

Kate Lister opens the episode by setting the scene beneath the palace of Knossos during the Bronze Age of Crete. She expresses her intent to explore the Minotaur myth from the creature's perspective, aiming to delve into the complexities of human nature and primal desires as depicted in ancient Greek mythology.

2. Understanding the Minotaur

Jasmine Elmir provides a foundational overview of the Minotaur, clarifying its origins and characteristics.

• Who is the Minotaur?
  • Jasmine Elmir [05:59]: "The Minotaur is a half bull, half man creature from Greek mythology."
  • Kate Lister [06:05]: "Does it specify which half?"
  • Jasmine Elmir [06:06]: "The head of a bull, the body of a man."

Elmir discusses the myth's backstory, highlighting King Minos of Crete's refusal to sacrifice a bull to the gods, leading to the goddess Aphrodite punishing his wife, Pasiphae, by making her fall in love with a bull. This union results in the birth of the Minotaur, who is subsequently confined within the labyrinth designed by the inventor Daedalus.

3. The Dark Backstory and Symbolism

The conversation delves deeper into the unsettling aspects of the myth and its symbolic implications.

• Pasiphae's Role and the Creation of the Minotaur:
  • Jasmine Elmir [07:38]: "Pasiphae gets the help of the famous inventor Daedalus... he makes her a cow to mate with the bull, resulting in the birth of the Minotaur."

Lister humorously critiques the myth's logic and the lengths Pasiphae goes to fulfill her unnatural desire, reflecting on societal views of shame and taboo.

• Symbolism of the Bull:
  • Jasmine Elmir [17:52]: "The bull's really interesting... the Minoans on Crete were famed for their bull leaping. So the bull was long associated with Crete in its history. So it makes sense that it would be a bull and not a horse or a goat."

Elmir explains the cultural significance of the bull in Minoan civilization, suggesting that the choice of a bull over other animals is deeply rooted in Crete's societal practices and religious symbolism.

4. Theseus and the Heroic Cycle

The episode transitions to the story of Theseus, the Athenian hero tasked with slaying the Minotaur.

• Theseus's Quest:
  • Kate Lister [13:25]: "Theseus... is supposed to send a group of youths over for the Minotaur to be eaten every year. He decides to end this by killing the Minotaur."
  • Jasmine Elmir [14:34]: "He's a douche, really."

The hosts discuss Theseus's motivations, his partnership with Princess Ariadne (who provides him with a ball of wool to navigate the labyrinth), and his subsequent betrayal of Ariadne by abandoning her on the island of Naxos. They critique Theseus's character, painting him as self-centered and irresponsible.

• Theseus's Downfall:
  • Kate Lister [16:02]: "He forgets to change his sail, leading to his father Aegeus's tragic death, after which the Aegean Sea is named."

This segment underscores the tragic elements of the myth, emphasizing Themes of pride and the consequences of flawed heroism.

5. The Minotaur's Place in Myth and Culture

Elmir and Lister explore the Minotaur's limited representation in ancient sources and its symbolic role.

• Minotaur as a Symbol:
  • Jasmine Elmir [12:19]: "Monsters are essentially projections of human fears. The Minotaur symbolizes something beyond his individual tragedy."

They discuss how the Minotaur serves as a representation of societal taboos, particularly surrounding bestiality and sexual shame.

6. Modern Interpretations and Artistic Representations

The conversation shifts to how the Minotaur has been perceived and reinterpreted in modern times, particularly in art.

• Picasso's Interpretation:
  • Jasmine Elmir [28:42]: "Picasso did some minotaur stuff... He saw aspects of himself in the Minotaur, interpreting it through his surrealist lens."

Elmir notes that while the Minotaur hasn't undergone significant reclamation or widespread reinterpretation, artists like Picasso have found personal resonance with the figure, often linking it to themes of raw sexuality and power.

7. Thematic Analysis and Final Thoughts

Lister and Elmir wrap up their discussion by reflecting on the enduring nature of the Minotaur myth and its relevance.

• Sexual Taboo and Societal Shame:
  • Jasmine Elmir [22:37]: "At the heart of it is sexual taboo... it's about sexual shame related to bestiality."

They emphasize that myths like the Minotaur's serve as moral explorations, addressing deep-seated societal fears and the need to contain and control what is deemed unnatural or shameful.

• Personal Reflections:
  • Jasmine Elmir [17:03]: "I just feel something from this... I get angry and sad at this one and a little bit bemused by the whole cow bit."

Elmir shares her personal connection to the myth, highlighting the emotional complexity it invokes and its capacity to provoke thought and empathy despite its monstrous elements.

• Closing Remarks:
  • Kate Lister [31:35]: "Glad his dad killed himself, quite frankly. What a miserable, rather depressing story."

The hosts conclude by acknowledging the myth's tragic and morally ambiguous nature, leaving listeners to ponder the intricate interplay between heroism, monstrosity, and societal norms.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Jasmine Elmir [05:59]: "The Minotaur is a half bull, half man creature from Greek mythology."
• Jasmine Elmir [22:37]: "At the heart of it is sexual taboo... it's about sexual shame related to bestiality."
• Jasmine Elmir [17:03]: "I just feel something from this... I get angry and sad at this one and a little bit bemused by the whole cow bit."
• Kate Lister [31:35]: "Glad his dad killed himself, quite frankly. What a miserable, rather depressing story."

---

Conclusion

In "The Truth About The Minotaur," Kate Lister and Jasmine Elmir dissect the layers of one of Greek mythology's most perplexing and tragic figures. Through a blend of historical analysis, symbolic interpretation, and candid discussion, the episode illuminates the Minotaur's role as a symbol of societal taboos and the complexities of human nature. Listeners are left to grapple with the myth's moral ambiguities and its enduring resonance in both ancient and modern contexts.

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

Hi, I'm your host Kate Lister. If you would like betwixt the sheets ad free and get early access. Sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every single week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.

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[Kate Lister]

Hello my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are listening to Betwixt the Sheets and this is a naughty podcast. Quite frankly we do like getting our hands dirty in historical smut around here. So I do have to tell you this is an adult podcast pocket by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range. Adult Submission used to be an adult too. And if you can't take all of that off your list, then sod off. We don't want you around here anyway. Right, for the rest of you, on with the show. We are deep underground here, beneath the palace of Knossos in the Bronze Age of Crete. And I am lost. Yes, I know it's a labyrinth and they're not meant to be easy, but there's not even a phone signal down here for me to be able to cheat my way out of it. Somewhere through these passageways lurks a half man, half bull monster of ancient Greek mythology, the Minotaur. And I'm looking for him because I want to hear his side of this utterly mad story. And it's a story that at the heart of it, explains how humans grapple with primal and forbidden desires, which, frankly, I am all about. You want to find out more? Well, then we've got to find him first. What do you look for in a man?

[Jasmine Elmir]

Oh, money, of course.

[Kate Lister]

You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the button right now.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Now.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Goodness.

[Kate Lister]

What beautiful d. Goodness has nothing to do with it, deari. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. Greek mythology is pretty mental at the best of times, not to mention controversial. See our episode from earlier this year on the Truth Behind Medusa. For more on that. When the ancient Greeks decided to explore their baser desires, they did not hold back. Which brings us to today's episode where I once again talk with the fabulous historian and author Jasmine Elmir to get to the heart of the Minotaur myth and find out what is it really all about. Togas and bullhorns at the ready. Let's do this. Hello and welcome back to Betwixthe Sheets. It's only Jasmine Elmir. How are you doing?

[Jasmine Elmir]

I feel like I'm a co host.

[Kate Lister]

I would love you to be a.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Co host because I'm back again. So it's very exciting to be here.

[Kate Lister]

Back once again, bringing your knowledge of the ancient world and the ancient Greeks and this time the Minotaur.

[Jasmine Elmir]

I know one of my genuine, genuine favourites.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, is it? Most of what I know about this myth is based on my watching Jim Henson's Greek myths as a child, which.

[Jasmine Elmir]

I loved are the best things on the planet. With the dog.

[Kate Lister]

Were you a big fan too?

[Jasmine Elmir]

Of course. Of course.

[Kate Lister]

And the. The storyteller as well.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah, all of it. Just all of it. I loved all of that. So good.

[Kate Lister]

Now, you have studied this in depth and you are a classicist scholar. I have watched something with puppets in it, so just give me a quick rundown. Who is the Minotaur?

[Jasmine Elmir]

So the Minotaur is a half bull, half man creature from Greek mythology.

[Kate Lister]

Does it specify which half?

[Jasmine Elmir]

The head of a bull, the body of a man? I really feel like it's my f. Because it's the most messed up backstory I think we've got in Greek myth. It's top level. Top level messed up.

[Kate Lister]

I bet none of this made it into Jim Henson's version for children either. No, go on, then. You disabused me of this.

[Jasmine Elmir]

The Minotaur is from the island of Crete. So King Minos, who people might have heard of, is the king of that place, and he refuses to sacrifice a beautiful bull to the gods. You're not allowed to do that because that's bad. You've got to do what you got to do what you're supposed to worship the gods. And do they say, okay, so as a punishment, the goddess Aphrodite makes his wife Pasiphae fall in love with a bull. And then she has a baby little bull thing called the Minotaur. And you might be asking me, Jasmine, what happened in between that? And that's the bit. That's my favourite bit. How did Pasiphae get with the bull? That's the question. I mean, that's what you're all thinking. That's the question.

[Kate Lister]

Yes.

[Jasmine Elmir]

So Pasiphae gets the help of the famous inventor Daedalus, who King Minos has got imprisoned, basically, on Crete. I mean, imagine this series, first of all, before I carry on. Amazing series. And she goes to Daedalus and says, I need to, you know, with the bull, give us. How do I do it? And he says, I'll make you a cow to get into you, like some fashioned thing. Then you crawl into it and then you do your thing and then it's all sorted. And then the Minotaur came.

[Kate Lister]

That's just. Who thought that up?

[Jasmine Elmir]

Do you know what the story. Obviously we'll get into the story. All good with the story. Fine. But that little detail, that's the cherry on the top. Who came up with that?

[Kate Lister]

I mean, that shows commitment, doesn't it? Like, on her part is that she would involve DIY and a craftsman in this as well. Cause If I was gonna do that, I'd attempt to do it myself. I'd be too embarrassed to try and get help in.

[Jasmine Elmir]

What's that thing that you can put. Is it like. Like the handymen apps or whatever you call them?

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. You've been looking on YouTube for tutorials.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Can you imagine? Carpenter wanted to fashion Kal for something or.

[Kate Lister]

No questions, please.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Shenanigans. No questions are.

[Kate Lister]

That's the most deranged story.

[Jasmine Elmir]

To be fair to Pasiphae, though, like, she has been made to fall in love with the bull by Aphrodite.

[Kate Lister]

Right. But she wasn't made to go and make a cow suit that she had to run around in.

[Jasmine Elmir]

No, no. But, you know.

[Kate Lister]

All right, so we're gonna give her a bit of license because she's been cursed by. She's not in her right mind, quite clearly. What a bonkers story. So, like. And in this world that results in a pregnancy.

[Jasmine Elmir]

In this world, that results in the pregnancy of a bull child called the Minotaur, who is then. Most people know him because he's lobbed in the labyrinth, this maze that's underground that he has to live in in shame. Wow.

[Kate Lister]

And all this because his dad, Minos, wouldn't sacrifice a bull.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Well, he's not his dad, technically.

[Kate Lister]

Is he okay? Oh, yes. He's not. No. All right. Yes. Stepdad.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Stepdad. Yeah, if you want to call it that.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Jasmine Elmir]

You say all of this. I totally get where that doesn't feel like a fair punishment, but it's the. What's been broken is the law of hubris, which is arrogance against the gods. So it's a disrespect to the gods. And that is hardcore. That's a hardcore crime. Religious crime. So it is fitting in the Greek. In the Greek. Always in the Greek mindset. It's fitting.

[Kate Lister]

No, no. I like to think social services would have stepped in a while before.

[Jasmine Elmir]

I would like to. I mean, I know the funding ain't great nowadays, but I'd like to think that would have gone up the top of the case list as one to have a look at.

[Kate Lister]

That wouldn't be a story we'd all be reading about in the papers going, there were opportunities missed. We saw her building a cow, you, Honor.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Oh, my God.

[Kate Lister]

Right, Sorry.

[Jasmine Elmir]

We should probably both be fired from this podcast, I think.

[Kate Lister]

So I think it might be cancelled pretty quickly after this. Right, okay. Moving swiftly along. So the poor little kid, the Minotaur. And is that his name, Minotaur? Or is it the Minotaur?

[Jasmine Elmir]

I'VE never thought of it before, but it'd be. I don't know why that's even funnier to think of. You mean like Madonna?

[Kate Lister]

But it's Minotaur, because this is the Minotaur. Which suggests there's more than one.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Well, no, I guess it depends on how sassy he's feeling on the day. Is he just Minotaur? No, I think there aren't any more. But Minos is the first part because obviously where he's at Minos and Taurus is bull. So it's like the bull of Minos, quite literally. So it is specific to him. But I just quite like the idea that he's like calling himself by this.

[Kate Lister]

I like to go by Minotaur, thank you very much. Yes. So what was he like before he got thrown in this giant maze also built by Daedalus, who is kept very busy by this family? Why was he thrown in there? Was he thrown in there as an infant? Did he display disturbing behavior as a bull child? Like what?

[Jasmine Elmir]

So the first thing is, like, in the sources, the Minotaur isn't seen as this kind of primary figure where we hear about how the Minotaur is feeling and thinking, okay, he's kind of like just this object of shame.

[Kate Lister]

Right?

[Jasmine Elmir]

Okay, so there's no kind of like, sit down, children. Listen to the story of the Minotaur from his perspective. There's none of that going on in any of the sources. It's more like there's this creature and he's thrown into the labyrinth. I mean, he has to be. The labyrinth has to be designed and made by Daedalus so he can go and live in it to hide the shame of what has happened. Okay, so it's quite sad really with the Minotaur, because he don't really have. He's not even the leading character in his own story.

[Kate Lister]

No, he's not really, is he?

[Jasmine Elmir]

He's a bit. There's not source material wise for him. There is source material, of course, but. But even like the actual meat and bones of his story doesn't really come up until like the first century A.D. so it's really late. Cause although there's origins way back, like 6th, 7th century, like mentions, the meatiness doesn't come to a bit later. So he's not even that big a deal in earlier mythology.

[Kate Lister]

And he's another character from Greek myth that seems to have got a particularly raw deal when you actually break down what's happened to this character. Cause none of this is his fault.

[Jasmine Elmir]

No, it's not. And again, we see this a lot with monsters. They are essentially some kind of projection of. Of a human fear.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Jasmine Elmir]

And, yeah, they're. They're personified in some way into a character. It might feel, like, harsh, but there's no kind of like, you know, the Greeks aren't thinking of them as, like, this poor little individual figure. He symbolizes something. And they're aware of that, but that's why they're made. These individuals are made into monsters because they're not. It doesn't matter that he's got a human body, he's got a bull's head, he's not human.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Jasmine Elmir]

And so that means we can, like, put him over there and make him an object of fear rather than just a normal human that did something bad over there. But you're right, for us, if you've got any bloody empathy, you'll be like, that's horrible.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Lobbed in the dark.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, so none of that came up in the Jim Henson version.

[Jasmine Elmir]

No.

[Kate Lister]

Theseus, enter stage left. Theseus, who is he? Where did he come from? Let's try and explain what happen where the Minotaur reappears.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah. So Theseus comes from Athens, and the Athenians are supposed to. I mean, don't ask me why again. Right. But the thing is, they're supposed to send a group of youths, men and boys and girls, over for the Minotaur to be eaten every year. Every year or every four years. It doesn't. Different. Different versions. Doesn't really matter, but. And so Theseus is like, hang on a minute, that ain't right. I'm not going to send my people over to get eaten by this thing. So he goes in as one of the youths, hidden, and goes to slay the Minotaur and put an end to this malarkey. So, as you know, it's a labyrinth. So how's he gonna get in and get out? He backs himself that he can kill the Minotaur, but how's he gonna get out? So Princess Ariadne, who is one of the daughters of Minos, falls in love with him and helps, and she gives him a ball of wool. So he kind of goes off in, unravels it so he can follow it, he can kill the monitor and then come back out again. And then he does the decent thing on the way back, takes her, gonna marry her, just abandons her on the island of Naxos on the way back. Just goes, see you later, love. You've done your job.

[Kate Lister]

He's an original fuckboy that's not very nice.

[Jasmine Elmir]

He's a douche, really.

[Kate Lister]

So he kills the Minotaur. Do we know how?

[Jasmine Elmir]

No, there's not really. It's not like other stories where you've got a detail about it. He just goes and kills the Minotaur.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Jasmine Elmir]

It's quite sad, actually. It's just like.

[Kate Lister]

Just.

[Jasmine Elmir]

And he's dead, presumably with a sword or a knife or a dagger or a rock or. There's different lights. Not much detail, really.

[Kate Lister]

And then he runs off with Ariadne and ditches her on an island after.

[Jasmine Elmir]

She'S just betrayed her family to do this as well. You got to remember that Arianne, technically, the Minotaur, is her half brother. So it's messed up, innit?

[Kate Lister]

What a shit.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah. He's not. I'm not. I do not like Theseus. Don't get me chatting about him. You're not a fan? No, there's something about him that. He's just really up himself. They're all up himself. Look, he is really up himself. I've always hated him, so. Sorry if everyone loves him out there.

[Kate Lister]

No, well, nobody does. And I was just saying, like, surely even back in the ancient Greek world, his abandoning of Ariadne would have been at least frowned upon.

[Jasmine Elmir]

No, it's. No, no. I mean, it's. I mean, like, for example, Jason and Medea. Medea helps Jason to get the Golden Fleece by putting the dragon to sleep. Spoiler alert. That's in my book. And then he says, I'll marry you. And then he does. And it's all crap, though. It's just not a good end.

[Kate Lister]

No.

[Jasmine Elmir]

And her rage ends up killing everyone. So, spoiler alert about Greece is women aren't treated very good.

[Kate Lister]

No.

[Jasmine Elmir]

The end.

[Kate Lister]

But also, Theseus is. He's just. He's a fucking idiot as well, because didn't he forget to change his ship's sails on the way back? Wasn't that a thing?

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah. So his dad is called Aegeus, and his dad. I mean, why you do this? I've got no idea. Should have just sent a WhatsApp that was saying he was all right, but he said obviously he was shitting himself that his son was going over to kill the Minotaur. So he said, when you come back, make sure you change your sail. Cause there's a black sail and a white sail. So make sure you change your sail to show me that you're alive, so I know you come back. And he forgot to change the sail.

[Kate Lister]

Dickhead. See, they can't change the sheets, they can't change the sails. It's just ridiculous.

[Jasmine Elmir]

His father lobs himself into the sea and that's why it's called the Aegeans, after Aegeus.

[Kate Lister]

Well, what a miserable, rather depressing story. Are there any winners in this at all?

[Jasmine Elmir]

Nope. It's awful. It's awful, isn't it? It's just not. It's fascinating, but it's awful. The end.

[Kate Lister]

Why is it your favourite myth, then? This is just a car crash of human misery.

[Jasmine Elmir]

It's because of the cow bit. I just don't know what that says about me, but I just find that. I don't know why. I just.

[Kate Lister]

It is the most mad detail.

[Jasmine Elmir]

I just have always just been like, what the hell is that about? I just loved it. Genuinely, though, like, the Minotaur has a lot of symbolism that relates to it. I actually think it is really sad. I think, basically, I like myths that have. I really feel something from it and I just feel something from this. I get angry and sad at this one and a little bit bemused by the whole cow bit. So I get a nice range of emotions. That's why it's one of my favorites.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, I mean, it definitely makes you think, doesn't it? What symbolism do you think the bull has? Like, why is he half a bull? Why isn't he half a horse or half a. I don't know, a rhino? What is the symbolism of the bull?

[Jasmine Elmir]

Well, the bull's really interesting. So before we have the sort of the Greeks, as you might think of them, there are different, obviously, eras. And the oldest civilization in the Greek islands is the Minoans on the island of Crete, which is the same as where the Minotaur is. And they were famed for their bull leaping. And they have a lot of balls in their iconography. So bull leaping is where there are. These images are pretty cool, where men would, as a sport, sort of leap over the back of a ball. It looks insane. I don't know how they did it, and they must have all died, as far as I can tell. But it's like, I guess, a prelude to kind of bull fighting in what you get in Spain and things like that. But it looked more artistic. So the bull was long associated with Crete in its kind of history. So it makes sense that it would be a bull and not a horse or a goat or any other thing you want to fancy, lob it in there rather than. Yeah. Any other creature, because it's what Crete's known for. So it's really why? I'd say it's the bull.

[Kate Lister]

Is it anything to do with masculinity? Is the bull a symbol of masculinity? I mean, kind of, I guess it kind of is now, like bull fighting. That's the whole point of it, isn't it? It's like, oh, look at me, big man, I can kill this animal.

[Jasmine Elmir]

I mean, obviously there's the fact that originally Minos was going to sacrifice a beautiful bull. So it's kind of like, you know, here we go. That motif continues in the punishment. I wouldn't say necessarily that it's like a manly. Is it a manly creature? I mean, obviously it's a really powerful creature and so it's got an aspect of kind of power in there. Therefore, is that a bit manly? Maybe, but I don't really think there's a lot to do with the choice of it that relates to gender.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Jasmine and the Minotaur after this short break. Trip Planner by Expedia. You were made to have strong opinions about sand.

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[Kate Lister]

What would you think about the idea that the Minotaur, there's something to do with sexual shame here? I mean, thinking back to the insane couch story, I would be ashamed, too. But the way that Greeks and the ancient myths work is. Is it's all very symbolic. Like, if you start to question it for too long, the whole thing falls apart pretty quickly. So, like, you can't get into the logistics of what, how, who did what, like, what did bestiality mean to them? What do you think they. Do you think they thought that was a funny story? Do you think that they thought that, like, what would that have meant to them, this bestiality? This woman who is so insane with lust that she has a man comes in to build things for her. Like, what do you think that meant to them? It is a mad story.

[Jasmine Elmir]

It's completely mad. But you're right. At the heart of it is sexual taboo. So this is obviously something. This is not something that is going on in Greek society. This is not their attitude to this. This is a taboo. You don't do this. And so that is why we have this myth, because as you quite rightly said, myths always a moral kind of exploration of something going on in society. So really, it's about sexual shame that relates to the taboo of bestiality. And that's just what it's about. It's literally what it says on the tin, this one. It's not too complicated in that sense. You know, I think that there is this kind of point to it, because this thing happens and there is this baby born out of it, right? This minotaur, this idea as well, of it being. Having to be locked away, the shame. Being physically taken away and locked underground in a maze. This is my own thought, really, but the maze looks a lot like a brain, right? And it's like, subconscious, and it's like locking away this shame, never to be spoken of again. Yeah, and again, we get that here. Or that same bloody thing again, where the male hero has to come in to end it. Like a man needs to come in and put this right, you know? And I think it's really fascinating that it's double, double, triple shocking that it's a woman that has committed the incest, I think.

[Kate Lister]

Definitely. Right. When you kind of, like, look at this thing, it's like, where's the shame? I think the excessiveness of that story all plays into, like, the shock value of it to sort of justify what's happened here or something that needs to be kept secret and something that needs to be kept away, as a lot of Greek monsters are. What do you think? The Minotaur has to be fed seven maidens and seven boys every few years. Like, what addition to the narrative is that? Because they could. I mean, I know no one was thinking this through, like, with a subplot and stuff, but it's an interesting addition to the narrative. Like, why is this creature now killing?

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah, I guess it's kind of like double whack, really. First of all, if the Monitor was just born and just disappeared, we wouldn't be able to explore the monstrous nature of the Minotaur and the fact that he needs to eat bodies, human flesh, which is another taboo thing. There's no human sacrifice going on in Greece. That's not a thing that shows that. How uncivilized he is. Uncontrollable, monstrous, crazy. So there's a first point about that that he adds to his monstrosity. The second point I'd say is that we need a way to introduce Theseus into the narrative so he can come save everyone and sort the Minotaur out. So we need that addition of the maidens and the young men for him to come in. And I guess I said to really, a third point as well, then, is really about the fact that he feasts on youth as well is kind of a bit more destructive. Because in lots of ways, this is Athens future generation that he's feasting on. So it's just kind of like, in lots of ways, it could be this idea that something that is shameful continues to have an impact every now and then. It's continuing to have this impact. It's a cycle that needs to be broken. Hence the sort of why they have to come every X number of years to come and be fed.

[Kate Lister]

It's all very Hunger Gamesy, isn't it? It is a bit Hunger Gamesy, isn't it? Yeah. When I hear this story, I can't help but wonder, what is the fucking point in Theseus? Like, seriously, it doesn't. Like, is it like a pride thing that we're supposed to look at him and just what, like, he goes and he kills the monster, but we're not given a lot of details. He does get the girl, but he ditches her on an island. He kills the monster, but he goes back and he forgets to change his sail. So his dad dies. It's like none of this. He seems to be being punished, too. It's like, what? Like he doesn't sail off into the distance and become a king and live happily ever after. Like, it's such a weird story.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Well, that he sort of does later on, but, like. Oh, he does, yeah. I mean, but he's in his heroic cycle. So. The point is that when you're in your heroic cycle, you are going through difficult tasks and you're trying to overcome them, and they're not always neat and tidy. But, I mean, the point of Theseus is exactly that. Every single Greek myth, you're gonna find a monster, you're gonna find a hero. You have to have it. It's like light and dark. The uncontrollable needs to be controlled by some bloke. In this example, it's Theseus, you know, and also, like, the whole thing about him leaving Ariadne, that's just him doing that thing. That's the sort of thing that men can do. It's not like the Greeks would have gone, how dare he? He'd have gone, yeah, yeah, she'd served her purpose. That was all right. Never mind. Like, is it sort of like, I'm.

[Kate Lister]

Glad his dad killed himself, quite frankly. Horrible man. But the lovely thing about myths is because they are so startlingly vague and bizarre that different time periods and generations project their own interpretation and meaning onto them. So they shift all the time. Like Medusa's myth shifts all the time. Has the Minotaur myth shifted very much? Has he ever undergone a process of reclamation? Has anyone ever wanted to tell his story?

[Jasmine Elmir]

Not really. Unlike many of the monstrous female figures that we see so much interest in, there's not a lot around the Minotaur. It's not to say no one's been interested in him, but there's not been this massive resurgence of interest in his story other than, I guess, in the psychological aspects of sexual taboo and bestiality and interest in that. But, yeah, sadly, a little bit in reflection to how he was in Greek myth, in the sources, because there's not actually a prolific amount about the Minotaur in the source material. There's enough, don't get me wrong, but he was never even really that popular in Greek source material. And I would say it's continued. It's not that there's nothing. It's not that there's nothing, but there's not a whole load.

[Kate Lister]

Picasso did some minatory stuff, didn't he?

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah, Picasso did. There's a few different artworks that he's done that relate to this kind of issue. And, you know, it's kind of an important feature in his work. And I think that the thinking behind this is that Picasso has some kind of personal interest in the Minotaur story and that he saw aspects of himself in the Minotaur. I mean, it might be to do with obviously, his Spanish ancestry. I don't want to get into Picasso's personal life. I don't know what he was up to.

[Kate Lister]

Not good things.

[Jasmine Elmir]

I'm not sure it's to do with that he was into sort of bestiality or anything. I'm not going to go that far. But I think, you know, kind of what the Minotaur represents, the idea that Spain has a big kind of connection to balls. I think he was fascinated and kind of interpreted that in his own artworks. I wouldn't say that's tantamount to, like, some movement of massive interest in the Minotaur. That's one dude going, let's have a little look at this. And trying to understand it in his Picasso y way as he does it in his sort of surrealist, strange, you know, kind of technique to look into it.

[Kate Lister]

So he just kind of just exists on the sort of the margins of myth, really, as this kind of strange half bull, half human thing that just again, doesn't get any lines of his own. Nothing in his own voice.

[Jasmine Elmir]

No. And that's the bit that's quite sad, isn't it? It's a bit like, you know, exactly what happens in the myth is happening now. You know, he's put underground and ignored. And actually, very few people have been that interested in him since the story.

[Kate Lister]

I wonder if what Picasso like, because he was a notorious fanny rat. He was. You couldn't keep him away long enough.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Did you just call him a fanny rat?

[Kate Lister]

I did, yes. Yes.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Okay. I like that one. I've heard that one. Is that a cake?

[Kate Lister]

I don't think he was a very nice person. I really don't. But I think maybe he. He saw the Minotaur as like this unrestrained male sexuality and potency, like this male lust that's running around a maze.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Right, Okay. I mean, I don't know where he's getting that from in terms of the Greek myth.

[Kate Lister]

His own pants, I think.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah. I think it's just like some element of fantasy. There's no real. It's not like the. It's not like the Minotaur's down there shagging everyone for his whole life.

[Kate Lister]

In Greek myth, he's probably a virgin, I would have said.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah, I should probably think so. As you say, it's to do with, I think, really more Spanish perspectives of what you mentioned earlier on about the bull and the masculinity that is very much associated with that in a. In a Spanish context. So it's that notion, I guess. What you mean, like, there's, like. There isn't, then what they see as a bull as being, like, virulent and kind of powerful and, I mean, that would make some sense. Right, I can see that. But I'm just a little bit distracted still by you calling him a fanny rat. What was that? Was it?

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, it was funny. Right, right.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yeah. Just a little bit distracted by that. So.

[Kate Lister]

So final question then.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Yes.

[Kate Lister]

Would you rather have the head of a bull or the bottom of a bull? Because he seems to have got a raw deal with that. Like, if you gotta be a half bull, half man hybrid, you must have got the head of a bull and looked down at your genitals and gone, oh, bloody hell.

[Jasmine Elmir]

Can I just kindly decline all your offers of any part of me being a bull? Is that an option? I definitely don't want to get Daedalus to make me into some kind of weird cow creature to climb into.

[Kate Lister]

No, no, definitely not.

[Jasmine Elmir]

I'm not. All right just being the full human, if that's okay. All right, well, what do you want? What bit of bull do you want on you?

[Kate Lister]

I don't know, because, like, if you've got the bull head, then you can be full monster running around, like, being monstrous. But if you've got, like, your normal human top half and the bottom bit of a bull, like, you can't be that monstrous. You'd still have to, like, go around Tesco's and everything, but just have the bottom half of a bull. I think it'd be quite embarrassing, so I would. I'd go full top of bull.

[Jasmine Elmir]

You know when people say, do you overthink this might be something? You might want to have a little reflection on something.

[Kate Lister]

Just sit with it for a while, Kate, and unpack that. And on that note, Jasmine, you have been marvellous again. You always are. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? If they want to write to you and tell you if they would prefer the top or bottom half of a bull, where can they find you?

[Jasmine Elmir]

Well, they should probably immediately call a therapist if they're seriously thinking about that. But okay, if they can find me, I'm on Instagram. Historywithsoul catch me there. That's mainly where I'm at nowadays. And yeah, thanks for having me again. Brilliant, brilliant. Time always is hilarious.

[Kate Lister]

You've been so much fun and we will see you again soon.

[Jasmine Elmir]

See you soon.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Jasmine for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like review and follow along wherever it is is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email [e-mail] Coming up, we've got episodes on how to give birth like a medieval person and the first in our upcoming miniseries exploring sex work throughout history. And we will be starting with none other than the ancient Romans. This podcast was edited by Tom Delaghi and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again. Betwixt sheets the history of sex scandal in society, A podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

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