Valentine's Day in Ancient Rome

Summary

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society Episode Summary: "Valentine's Day in Ancient Rome" Release Date: February 11, 2025

Join sex historian Kate Lister and Roman expert Emma Southern as they delve into the intriguing and often scandalous history of Valentine's Day, tracing its origins back to the ancient Roman festival of Lupercalia. This episode uncovers the rituals, myths, and transformations that led to the modern celebration of love, peppered with humor and sharp insights.

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Introduction to Lupercalia

Kate Lister sets the stage by highlighting the coincidence of Valentine's Day's timing with the ancient Roman festival, Lupercalia. She humorously narrates a fictional hike up Palatine Hill, encountering priests smeared in goat's blood, which serves as a segue into the episode's main topic.

Notable Quote:

Kate Lister [05:50]: "Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets... Is it a coincidence that our Valentine's Day falls at the same time of year as the Lupercalia festival was held in ancient Rome?"

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Rituals and Practices of Lupercalia

Lister and Southern explore the elaborate and bizarre rituals of Lupercalia. The festival involved naked men, known as Luperci, running through the streets with goat skins, whipping women to promote fertility and ease childbirth. The ceremony began with sacrifices in a cave on Palatine Hill, followed by communal laughter and the subsequent skinning of the goat.

Notable Quote:

Emma Southern [07:36]: "It's so weird that even the Romans didn't know what it was or where it came from. They came up with about four or five different explanations for why it happened."

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Theories on the Origins of Lupercalia

The discussion delves into various theories about the origins of Lupercalia. While some myths link the festival to the Greek god Pan and pre-Roman shepherd rituals, Southern emphasizes that the exact origins remain murky. She points out that historians have multiple, often contradictory explanations, reflecting the Romans' own uncertainties.

Notable Quote:

Emma Southern [12:16]: "Romans loved a club that you're in... Like the Jacobins in the French Revolution, something like that. Like, they're a club and it's only open to people of a certain class."

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Connection to Valentine's Day

Lister and Southern analyze how Lupercalia transitioned into the modern Valentine's Day. They explain that as Rome shifted to Christianity, efforts were made to replace pagan festivals with Christian traditions. The romantic aspects of Valentine's Day, such as courtly love and the veneration of Saint Valentine, emerged in the late Middle Ages, diverging significantly from the original Lupercalia practices.

Notable Quote:

Emma Southern [29:27]: "And since Saint Valentine is kind of in much the same way like we celebrate it and it's become quite a big deal in the calendar, people need to come up with a reason why."

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Decline of Lupercalia

The episode traces the decline of Lupercalia, noting that by the fifth century AD, the festival had largely fallen out of favor. Efforts by Christian leaders, such as the Bishop of Rome, to suppress pagan rituals contributed to its eventual disappearance. Southern highlights how the festival transformed over centuries, losing its original fertility rites and becoming more of a public spectacle.

Notable Quote:

Emma Southern [27:18]: "They had already stopped being mostly nude by the time the Christians got involved."

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Modern Interpretations and Similar Festivals

Lister and Southern draw parallels between ancient Lupercalia and modern festivals that retain elements of fertility and public amusement. They discuss how certain contemporary celebrations still involve playful rituals that echo the spirited and sometimes outrageous nature of Lupercalia, albeit in a much more socially acceptable manner.

Notable Quote:

Kate Lister [23:23]: "We've sat here and said that it's all completely bonkers, but it is quite mad. But there are, like, modern, not recreations of this, but like, similar weird festivals that happen."

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Conclusion: The Legacy of Lupercalia

In wrapping up, Lister and Southern reflect on the enduring curiosity and fascination with Lupercalia's wild traditions. They acknowledge that while the festival itself is long gone, its legacy persists in the form of Valentine's Day—a day devoted to love and romance, albeit stripped of its more primal origins.

Notable Quote:

Kate Lister [34:21]: "If you tried to [bring back Lupercalia], it would be the possibility. Yeah. They wouldn't like that at all."

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Additional Insights

Throughout the episode, Kate and Emma intersperse their discussion with witty banter and contemporary references, making the historical exploration both informative and entertaining. They emphasize the importance of understanding the cultural and societal shifts that transform ancient rituals into modern traditions.

Notable Quotes:

Emma Southern [15:48]: "A sexy thing."

Kate Lister [24:14]: "We think it's really sexy. Fun thing to do. Yeah."

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Further Resources

For listeners eager to dive deeper, Emma Southern directs them to her website, social media, and her podcast, "The History is Sexy," where she explores other tantalizing historical topics.

Notable Quote:

Emma Southern [35:33]: "They can find me @emmasothern.com or they can find me at Emma Sullivan on Instagram or they can find me on my podcast the History is Sexy where we are recording an episode on the Marquis de Sade tomorrow."

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Produced by: Stuart Beckwith | Senior Producer: Charlotte Long
Subscribe for more: Explore episodes on diverse topics like the history of fatphobia and Michelangelo's sex life, available on all major podcast platforms.

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Note: This summary omits advertisements, intros, and outros to focus solely on the episode's content.

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

Hi, I'm your host, Kate Lister. If you would like betwixt the sheets ad free and get early access, sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every single week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe hey, this is Jonathan Fields, host of the Good Life Project. Today's sponsor, Boost Mobile. Reminds me of what I love when someone reimagines what's possible. They have invested billions in building America's newest 5G network, becoming the country's fourth major carrier. They are doing things differently, offering a $25 monthly unlimited plan that never increases in price and letting you try their service risk free for 30 days. With blazing fast 5G and plans for all the latest devices, they're changing the game. Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or find them [e-mail].

[Jonathan Fields]

Acast powers the world's best Podcasts. Here's the show that we recommend. This is Josh Hart from the Knicks, but NBA All Star Jalen Brunson and I created a new video podcast, the Roommate Show. A Playmaker original. You know the vibes here are always immaculate. We're going to discuss our experiences on and off the court. You want to get into it this, this.

[Emma Southern]

Also start with the topics. Hot. Yeah, I feel like we have to.

[Jonathan Fields]

Talk about it and really anything else that comes to mind. Today we have the man, the myth, the legend and we have a exceptional guest with us today. He is a Emmy award winner, actor, filmmaker. He's a formal number one overall pick at two time Super Bowl MVP, four.

[Kate Lister]

Time All Star, two time All NBA.

[Jonathan Fields]

Got the 4 13th overall pick in the 2015 draft. Ten year pro in his first year on the Knicks. Welcome to the show. Subscribe now for weekly episodes. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.

[Kate Lister]

Hello my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. Happy Valentine's Day week or whenever this is going out. There's nobody that I would rather be spending the day with. But before we can do anything together, I have to tell you once again, this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adultery way of covering a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. And we have to tell you that because if you get upset, well then we can just say we did tell you. Fair dues. You were warned and you listened anyway, you maniac. Right? On with the show. It is a beautiful, cool February afternoon in the 5th century BC and we are in Rome. And I have decided to go for a hike up the Palatine Hill. That is a complete lie. I would not go hiking anywhere, let alone up a hill. But we will suspend our disbelief for the podcast breathe it in betwixt us. This is the stuff. It's good to get out the hustle and bustle. Isn't it just so tranquil up here? Just a cotton picking minute here. There's a bunch of priests coming out of a cave, completely ruining the vibe I've got going on here. And they're covered from head to toe in goat's blood. What on earth? This wasn't in the hiker's handbook and now they're wiping it across each other and soaking it in wool and milk and. Oh my God, no. I knew hiking was a terrible idea. Right, I'm going back down the hill. But you know what? Now I think about it, those mad priests could have been worshipping the Lupercalia, which tends to happen around these parts at this time. And that was a completely bonkers festival, which involved goats blood cave and a lot of smearing and whipping. Curious to know more. Well, I know I am. Let's crack on.

[Emma Southern]

What do you look for in a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my.

[Kate Lister]

Boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing a button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

[Emma Southern]

Goodness, What a beautiful dance. Goodness has nothing to do with it, dearie.

[Kate Lister]

Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. Is it a coincidence that our Valentine's Day falls at the same time of year as the Lupercalia festival was held in ancient Rome? Did Rome's transition to Christianity and a distancing from its pagan past have anything to do with merging goat smearing priests with fat little cupid babies and boxes of chocolates? And if it did, or even if it didn't, how did the Valentine's Day we know and possibly loathe to this very day become a thing? Joining me today to answer all of these questions and more is the one and only Emma Southern, expert in all things Roman and disgusting and longtime friend of the show. If this episode has piqued your interest, then why not scroll back to our previous episode with Emma, including the one on gladiators, sex lives and murder in the Roman world. Right, Goat whips at the ready, Betwixters. Let's do this. Hello and welcome back to Betwixter Sheets. It's only Emma Southern. How are you doing?

[Emma Southern]

I am very well, thank you. I am waiting for spring to come and all of this.

[Kate Lister]

Fucking freezing, isn't it?

[Emma Southern]

It's so cold. And we're here talking about springtime festivals and the possibility of rebirth. And we need it right now, don't we?

[Kate Lister]

For our latest installment in the unofficial series. Fucking hell. The Romans were shit, weren't they? Which I'm thoroughly enjoying. We seek to get this one's fucking.

[Emma Southern]

How The Raymonds were weird.

[Kate Lister]

They're intensely. Before we even get going, I should ask you, have you seen the new Gladiator film yet?

[Emma Southern]

I have seen the new Gladiator film.

[Kate Lister]

I haven't seen it yet. I should have watched everything. What's your thoughts?

[Emma Southern]

It's not as good as the first one, to be honest with you. And kind of not weird enough. The shards are quite good, I'll give you that. I wish they hadn't been ruined by the trailer because I was sort of delighted by them. But yeah, it's not. It's not as good as the first one. That's what I thought. And also they do bad things to Cara Keller, which I don't think I will ever forgive Ridley Scott for. But that I can go on about that for about a thousand years. But just important to note that he was not a small, syphilitic, insane person. He was a large, hot African man.

[Kate Lister]

Right, duly noted. I don't know if you can stream it yet. Presumably you can. I might make myself a little Note. Watch Gladiator 2. Watch Gladiator this evening.

[Emma Southern]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

And then text Emma about it. That's all right. I just made a little note. Yeah, but we're not here to talk about Gladiator. More to the pity. We're here to talk about the rather peculiar Roman festival, the Lupercalia.

[Emma Southern]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Which some people float the suggestion it's a Valentine's Day thing, but take it from the top. What on earth is this?

[Emma Southern]

It's so weird that even the Romans didn't know what it was or where it came from. And they came up with about 4,50 different explanations for why it happened. But the main part of it was a load of noble kind of equestrian level. So just like the second highest class young men and senators as well, running around the streets completely naked, hitting women with goat skin lashes. And the women being like, yes, I love it. And then they would have a big party afterwards.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, that's weird. That is.

[Emma Southern]

That's it is weird.

[Kate Lister]

How do you end up there? That can't have been somebody suggesting that to a planning committee in all its glory of just like, right. I really think that women want to be whipped through the streets with bits.

[Emma Southern]

Of a goat by naked men.

[Kate Lister]

It must have evolved from somewhere by naked men. Oh, God.

[Emma Southern]

Yeah. It's very, very ancient and like kind of the ancient historian kind of anthropological opinion is that it is like very pre Ro, like Latin or Etruscan shepherd based ritual to do with kind of letting loose and fertility and men running around protecting people and like purification. That just stuck around in Roman culture. Like a lot of their stuff did. So, like they didn't know what the vestal virgins were either. They had no clue and they had to constantly make up stories. And that's what they do for the Lupercalia, because they don't really know why it's called the Lupercalia and they don't really know why they do it. They just know it's really important that they do. And so they come up with like three or four different explanations for why it is important for them to do this. There's also a whole kind of. Before the bit where they are running through the streets naked, they all get together in a cave at the bottom of the Palatine Hill. So a bunch of guys get together and sacrifice a goat and then they pick two of the boys, like, who are the initiates, and they put blood of the goat on their foreheads and then they dip some wool in milk and then wipe the blood off of their foreheads. And then everybody has to do a ritual laugh so everyone goes aha. And then they skin the goat. So it's like it's combination of just men being really fucking weird in a cave and then insisting that everybody else get involved in their weirdness in the streets.

[Kate Lister]

The Romans loved a festival and they loved sacrificing things too. I've learned that from you, is if they're not killing something, then frankly, what was the point?

[Emma Southern]

Yeah, it's not a day if you've not sacrifice something.

[Kate Lister]

So why was this festival particularly odd even to them? Because they've definitely sacrificed. Was it the nudity and the whipping bit?

[Emma Southern]

It's the nudity and the whipping bit, yes. They don't usually go around naked in the streets and they usually. All of their festivals, they're actually very covered up. So they have a whole thing with covering their heads when they're doing sacrifice. And they're kind of very. Most Roman festivals, which of which there Are hundreds, are very, like. They look like a person with obsessive compulsive disorder, like, doing everything in very specific ways. Everything has to be done with the right sounds and the right movements and the right words at the right time. And you have to be kind of very precise and careful. And if you do it wrong in any way, the whole thing has to be done all over again, because otherwise the gods will come and get you. And this is one of the few where they have this little bit in the cave where they have to do these things, but then the rest of it is kind of a naked, free for all, and there's lots of kind of laughing and men and women are involved, which is quite unusual. And it ends kind of with a big, like, dinner. And so it is quite unusual for a Roman festival where that. For the kind of actual religious part to be fun, rather than quite a stressful set of rituals where the gods will smite you if you've done it wrong and for everyone to be running around naked. So it is a weird one, but it seems to be one that people are really into.

[Kate Lister]

Well, I mean, there's a certain element of fun to it. I can see that. Who's naked? Is everybody naked? At what point do they get naked? They do the thing in the cave with the goat and then everybody, what, goes back home and then gets undressed. Then what's happening?

[Emma Southern]

I think they probably take their clothes off before they get in there, to be honest. If nothing else. You don't want blood, if you like. It's not a very big cave. You probably don't want blood on your toga.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Emma Southern]

But it's what it is, is a collegia. So it's like an association and you get inducted into it. And it's like a bit like being in the Masons or something. Like, Romans loved these things.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, so it's a gang.

[Emma Southern]

Yeah, sort of like a gang. Like a little club that you're in. Like the Jacobins in the French Revolution, something like that. Like, they're a club and it's only open to people of, like, a certain class, and you get rest of the year, who knows what they were doing, hanging out. But this is the one time of the year that you get to go and, like, you're very important for the city and you get to go and take off all your clothes and run around. And then it gets kind of linked.

[Kate Lister]

Not everyone can do this. It's just certain people get to do it.

[Emma Southern]

Yeah. So only certain people are inducted into it or are allowed to join, although we have no idea like what that process is. All we know is that there are loads of, or not even loads. There's a few like, epitaphs of people who have had themselves remembered as members of the Lupercali. So they like, it's a membership thing, thing that you have to presumably like apply to be allowed to run around naked every so often.

[Kate Lister]

And it's the men applying, not the women.

[Emma Southern]

So the women are just in the streets and they developed this idea that if you are hit with the goat skin, so if they hit you, then either you will become pregnant, if you're not pregnant and you want to be, or if you are already pregnant, then you'll have an easy birth so you won't die in childbirth, which happens surprisingly often. So women kind of love it and they're getting in the way, going, ha, ha ha, I'm gonna be. And it's a kind of giggly time of if you wanna get pregnant, then you go and get in the way of whoever is running around. And if you are pregnant, then the story goes that it'll be better for you. So people want to be hit by them for the most part.

[Kate Lister]

I'm trying to think of like, at what point what got joined up here to the killing goat, to. To this is good for pregnant women. Like what? How can we join those dots? Is there any way of joining the dots?

[Emma Southern]

Not really.

[Kate Lister]

Goats, like good for pregnant women.

[Emma Southern]

Well, so it basically when the Romans worked backwards or the Greeks work backwards, because a lot of what we have writing about it is the Greeks trying to explain it to other people and then occasionally the Romans trying to explain it to themselves. But the Greeks made it so that it linked to the Greek God Pan, who is obviously a goat hooved God and is conn to kind of wilderness and woods and sex and fertility. And so they developed like this whole myth basically that there's loads of Roman myth, people forget about that. The Romans loved a good myth as much as the Romans did. They're just kind of less sexy than the Greek ones. But there's this Roman myth that there was a guy called Evander who comes from Arcadia in Greece, which is like the middle of the Peloponnese. And he was kicked out for some reason that no one could agree on. Went to Italy, founded a city there on the Palatine, and like, it's called Palatinium. And he found a city and then kind of gathers people together and then instructs them in Greek ways and he introduces to them this Very ancient, pre civilization Greek festival of Pan, which becomes the Lupercalia. And it's called the Lupercalia because he's from a place called Lycia. And that becomes Lupercalia. And that is the best that the Greeks could come up with. And to say, like, oh, it's very ancient. And that's what Cicero thinks it is. He thinks it's like a very ancient. Before we had civilization, everybody was running around naked. And so that's why we take our clothes off. And it's related to Pan. So it must be to do with fertility.

[Kate Lister]

A sexy thing.

[Emma Southern]

Yeah, a sexy thing.

[Kate Lister]

So Cicero writes about it, the Greeks write about it. Does any. Who else is throwing their hat in the ring with this and going, I know why we do this.

[Emma Southern]

Everybody kind of has a bit of a bash. So Livy has a go. Dionysus of Halicarnassus has a go. Plutarch writes about it a lot. It comes up in histories. Because there is a very, very famous moment that happens at 1 Lupercalia, which is when Mark Antony, who is naked at the time, offers Julius Caesar the crown and offers him the chance to be a king. And Julius Caesar says no.

[Kate Lister]

Ooh.

[Emma Southern]

And that happens. I do think that this is underestimated. While everybody is nude, there's just a bunch of naked men standing around and everybody's having a giggle. And then Julius Caesar decides to attempt to start a constitutional crisis in the middle of it. But that's like. So everybody then has to explain what the hell was going on and why Mike Anthony had his dick out while he was offering a crown to Julius Caesar.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, please.

[Emma Southern]

Yeah. So Plutarch and a bunch of others get involved and they also offer this, like, Roman version, which is that it's absolutely nothing to do with the Greeks, that they invented it all by themselves. And actually it's to do with Romulus and Remus and it's either or possibly both, that this is the cave where Romulus and Remus were suckled by the wolf. So the Lupercalia comes from Lupus. Or it is to celebrate an occasion when Romulus and Remus were just running around naked for fun. And somebody came up and said, oh, there's a, like, cattle rustler who's coming to steal all of your sheep and cows. And they ran off and chased them away and therefore protected the city. And that's why everybody runs around naked. Or it's a completely separate one to do with they were just having a party and then they got nude and ran around, and then they killed a goat and dressed up as a goat. And that was hilarious. And everybody just remembers it because it's funny.

[Kate Lister]

And this is Romulus and Remus, the ones who founded Rome. Allegedly.

[Emma Southern]

Yes. So Romulus and Remus, the myth is that the sons of Mars and a vestal virgin who is raped by Mars, that she then gives up the children at the instigation of her uncle, and she's supposed to drown them, but she doesn't. They are exposed and rescued by a wolf, which is why Romans love wolves. Who suckles them until they're taken in by a shepherd and they can go and found their own city. And then they have a big fight over what they're going to call the city and where it's going to be, whether it's going to be on the Palatine or on the Esquiline. And Romulus stabs Remus in that argument, which is why it's called Rome and not Rheim and not Rem.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, that would have been. You could have had Times New Reman.

[Emma Southern]

Font Times New Reman. Yes. Occasionally people do memes about REM and imagine it as, like, the most glorious, peaceful nation. So where Romulus started, like the most warlike nation who can't do anything without doing a stabbing, the Re would be just, everybody loves each other and it's peace and harmony in, like a 70s flower child.

[Kate Lister]

I would like to have seen Ream.

[Emma Southern]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

This is an interesting Roman theory that I've read about. I mean, the bottom line of, like, none of it is true.

[Emma Southern]

No, no.

[Kate Lister]

But I have heard it argued by some people that the wolf. The wolf that allegedly suckled Romulus and Remus might have actually, actually, actually been a hooker.

[Emma Southern]

Yes.

[Kate Lister]

And that somewhere along the lines, it got mixed up because the Roman. I said the Roman word. The Latin word fucking. Okay. The Latin word.

[Emma Southern]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

For. For a sex worker is lupa, isn't it? That's where we have lupana, which is a brothel.

[Emma Southern]

I think that's from Livy, actually, where he says, like, obviously he likes to debunk a myth. He doesn't ever say they didn't happen. He just says that the magic part didn't happen. So he's like those guys who are like, oh, maybe, you know, Noah's Ark actually was a real flood or whatever. So he's like, oh, yeah, no, it wasn't a wolf that suckled on Remus. It was. We've got confused with the words lupus and lupa and actually, it was a sex worker. And we just don't know what we're talking about. And they didn't. They were just making it up. God bless them.

[Kate Lister]

It's all being made up.

[Emma Southern]

It is.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Emma after this short break.

[Emma Southern]

Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, host of Echoes of History, the podcast that plunges you into the ranks of the Knights Templar, across ancient Egypt and behind the barricades of history's great revolutions to explore the worlds recreated in Assassin's Creed. In our new series, Chasing Shadows, we're in feudal Japan alongside samurai warlords and shinobi spies. Whether you're gearing up for Assassin's Creed Shadows or captivated by Japan's rich history, this podcast, brought to you by Ubisoft and History Hit is a must. Listen, Chasing Shadows is out now on the Echoes of History podcast.

[Kate Lister]

Is there any chance that the Lupercalia could be anything to do with sex workers? Is that a reach?

[Emma Southern]

No. In fact, I would say probably sex workers, they very often are trying to avoid pregnancy, so probably they would stay away.

[Kate Lister]

Good point. Good point. Okay. It's got slightly wolfy undertones.

[Emma Southern]

It has wolfy undertones. And apparently they would also sacrifice a dog. One source that says that they sacrificed a dog, which even that was weird for the ravens. They didn't do that very often.

[Kate Lister]

The whole thing is incredibly weird. Of all the suggestions and explanations that have been put forward by various people, all of which sound quite mad, are there any of them that modern historians like? Well, actually, that one might. That one seems less mad than the others.

[Emma Southern]

Well, I think possibly. It is pretty Roman. So the Greek one is all of the ones that are like, this is a Greek thing, it's come from Arcadia, it's to do with Pan, are considered to be just fabrications. The ones it is very much a Roman festival that almost certainly started when they were just like shepherd guys sitting on a hill. So the ones where the story is that they were protecting or purifying or kind of encouraging the fertility of their sheep flocks are the ones that are considered kind of probably what you're doing, most likely. So this is a time when they're running around what is the middle of, like, it's still winter, it's still pretty grim. It's a good party. And what you're interested in as shepherds is the safety and, like, increase of your flocks. And then that gets transferred onto people when Rome hasn't got any sheep in it anymore, when it's a city of brick and where the sheep all outside of the city. Then you get worried about the fertility of your people.

[Kate Lister]

I mean, we've sat here and said that it's all completely bonkers, but it is quite mad. But there are, like, modern, not recreations of this, but like, similar weird festivals that happen. They're not. They're not sacrificing dogs or like whipping people, but, like, there are strange festivals where men, like, chase after women or try and spank women. There was one recently that they tried to ban because someone went, should we be spanking women in the street? That we don't know. I'm not entirely sure.

[Emma Southern]

I don't know how I feel about that.

[Kate Lister]

That's a great idea.

[Emma Southern]

Yes, but that was.

[Kate Lister]

Where the hell was that? But that was a fertility thing as well. And there's a few of those that men go running around and they try and either kidnap women. Joke, joke, kidnap, joke, or they spank them for some reason.

[Emma Southern]

Yeah. And I don't know, it's like a kind of pre. European, Indo European, like one of those strange things where it clearly has come from something that is before all of us. That.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Emma Southern]

Like, you know, you have certain words that appear in all. Lots of languages like that just. Or certain myths that appear over and over again across cultures and times. Because there is something way back in the very distant human Indo European past. And somewhere along the line that this idea of kind of grabbing women and spanking them or lashing them or holding them, like, got embedded in our little monkey brains as a great idea. And we keep doing a sexy thing.

[Kate Lister]

We think it's really sexy. Fun thing to do. Yeah. Maybe it's not that completely bonkers. We still do weird like this around the world today. But I can't imagine. I was gonna say. I can't imagine the Christians like this very much, but then I was gonna. But what time period are we talking about here? Presumably before they turned up and went, excuse me, everybody, could you stop doing that, please?

[Emma Southern]

Yeah, pretty much. So they. I mean, as far as we know, the Lupercalia existed in Rome from. As soon as Rome existed. Like. Like the vet dot. Yeah, from day.it was there and they were doing some form of it. The last time that we hear that it occurs is in the fifth century. At the end of the fifth century, in like 495. Because A.D. so it hung in there. It hung in actually a very long time for over a thousand years.

[Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Emma Southern]

Although by that time, it is a very, very different festival, which brings into question what had changed between its foundation and by the Time we hear of it in the late republic, what happens is that a Pope, a bishop of Rome, writes a letter to somebody in Rome in response to complaints that the Lupercalia isn't being held. And somebody writes to him and says, oh, there's famine and there's plague here. And we reckon that it's because nobody's holding the Lupercalia. And we think that we should do it again. Like, we should bring it back and. Cause no one's just really bothered for a while. It hadn't been outlawed. Sacrifice had been outlawed, but festivals surrounding them hadn't. And the Pope writes back and is like, that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. One, because the Lupercalia was never invented to help with plague or famine. Like, it was always about fertility. Livy says it was about fertility. Everybody says. He, like, pulls out all of these quotes, and it's like, nobody ever thought that it was about plague. And if it was about plague, then it wasn't doing a very good job. And then he says, you know, it's not like we even do it like they used to anyway, because these days we don't run around naked ourselves. We pay somebody else to do it. So they had somebody else running around naked. Like actors. And our women aren't whipped anymore either. What they do is just shout names out. So by the 5th century, it had turned into something where there was little to no sexiness. It was just like actors running around in the street and they would, like, shout people's names out. And it had turned into less of a fertility festival and more of a, like, naming and shaming festival of, like.

[Kate Lister]

It doesn't sound nearly as much fun, does it?

[Emma Southern]

No.

[Kate Lister]

No.

[Emma Southern]

So he was like, look, I mean, I think that he does have a great line, which is that if Christians do this, it's spiritual adultery, which is, I think, a great thing to be accused of. And. But he said, like, if pagans want to do it, then that's their problem, but Christians shouldn't be doing it because it's gross. And I'd really appreciate it if you didn't mention this ever again. Thanks, Bye. Was it.

[Kate Lister]

Did anyone else do it? Was it just in Rome? Did anyone else, like, have their own version of the Lupercalia?

[Emma Southern]

This is a question that no one knows the answer to, but because it is so specifically based on this one cave, like, this cave at the bottom of the Palatine is where it has to be, they think it's possibly just a Roman one in this form that it is. And if other places had something like it, then it would be something that was similar but would have a different name, possibly.

[Kate Lister]

Was it outlawed? Was it ever outlawed? Did it just sort of eventually fall out of favor? Just. Just sort of dwindled away.

[Emma Southern]

Yeah, just kind of drizzled away. That's the last time we ever hear of it. And this is kind of before the Pope, the Bishop of Rome has any real, like, power to tell anybody. But the sacrifice element was illegal, so that was outlawed by Theodosius a couple of hundred years before that. A couple Hundred years? 100 years. And eventually people just seem to have stopped, like, with a lot of things.

[Kate Lister]

Got a bit bored.

[Emma Southern]

Yeah, everybody. Like, there's clearly people doing, like, pagan festivals while still being a Christian. And eventually those pagan festivals just lose all of their meaning and then they just become, like, a thing, and no one knows why they're doing them. And then one year, somebody stops, and then it's clear from the letter from the Pope that they're not doing it all the time. Like, there's obviously been two or three years where it hasn't happened, and they're thinking about bringing it back. And he's like, no. So we don't know if they actually did bring it back after that, or that might have been the end of it, that they never did ever again.

[Kate Lister]

So how in the hell does a bunch of naked men running riot and whipping women with bits of a dead goat get linked to Valentine's Day? Because I've never had that on a Valentine's Day.

[Emma Southern]

No, I've never had that on a Valentine's Day. I admittedly, rarely celebrate Valentine's Day, in fact.

[Kate Lister]

And if you were woken up by a nude man with a bit of a goat trying to whip you, you did phone the. I would.

[Emma Southern]

I'd be very concerned. Even if it was my husband, I think I'd be, like, very concerned the most. The last time he bought me a Valentine's Day present, it was to change the gas over from a meter. And that was extremely good Valentine's Day present. So it would be quite a change of pace.

[Kate Lister]

Stepped up again, wouldn't he?

[Emma Southern]

I'd wonder where he got the goat from. It'd be a lot. But it becomes connected to Valentine's Day kind of in the late Middle Ages, basically. First, there is this whole story that the Pope banned it with this letter and then replaced it with the purification of the Virgin Mary. So it stops being the purification of people and starts being purification of the Virgin Mary. So that starts in the 16th century and there's this Italian cardinal, basically, who invents this story that it was that the purification of Virgin Mary has been celebrated for so long, it's been celebrated since 5th century. Da, da, da. And then everybody sort of stops worrying about the purification of Virgin Mary. It's not something that anybody really celebrates anymore. But what does emerge is the idea of courtly love and concept of romance and seducing and things like that. And the first mention of like Saint Valentine that you get as something that people are celebrating in a romantic fashion is Chaucer. So around about the same time, you get this notion that people have started to celebrate it and then later after that, towards like the 18th, 19th century, people start connecting the fact that this is on the 14th of February and the fact that the Lupercalia was on the 15th of February. They do overlook the fact that there's loads of other festivals that are happening at the same time, including one that's called something like the Fornicatia, which I think is a much. It's one that I would have gone for to link to.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, that sounds like an interesting.

[Emma Southern]

I'll tell you, this is one of those ones where Latin is really leading you down a direction that sounds way more fun than it is.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, you're just gonna tell me it's something like to do with pot plants or something now, aren't you?

[Emma Southern]

It's even more fun. It is the celebration of the grain oven.

[Kate Lister]

Fucking hell. Imagine misreading that and showing up completely in the nip of.

[Emma Southern]

Yeah, your late 6th, 15th. Ye. Oh, no, this was the ovens one. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, God, you'd be so disappointed. You'd feel such a fool. You would.

[Emma Southern]

The embarrassment.

[Kate Lister]

So the Lupercalia gets linked to St. Valentine's sort of purely by the fact it was the day after and it's got a slightly love romantic y thing in the fact that it was about fertility.

[Emma Southern]

Yeah. And because St. Valentine is kind of in much the same way like we celebrate it and it's become quite a big deal in the calendar and people need to come up with a reason why in exactly the same way that Romans were trying to come up with a reason why they ran around naked. And so Saint Valentine doesn't refer to a single saint. There's like two main ones and then a couple of extra ones who have had romances developed around them that like a invented in the 18th century as well. And basically we're doing the exact same thing. We're making up like origin stories to explain why we do this stuff and why it occurs. And there is a real desire for festivals that are in the Christian calendar to somehow have been deliberately supplanting Roman festivals. Like, people say the same thing about Christmas, that it deliberately supplanted, like, was brought in or invented in order to supplant the Saturnalia, rather than just existing by itself as its own thing. And people liking to celebrate stuff.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, we do like that. It's quite a trendy thing, isn't it, to say, well, the Christians, they ruined everything, but in this particular case, ruined nude men charging around the streets.

[Emma Southern]

They did, they did. Although by the sounds of it, they had already stopped being mostly nude by the time the Christians got involved. Although we don't know. It might have been the Christians that stopped them being naked.

[Kate Lister]

It might have been. But there's absolutely no link whatsoever between any of the Saint Valentines who are out there and this particular custom. Nothing.

[Emma Southern]

No, the only link is that one of the Saint Valentines was from Rome and, like, think he is a saint because he, like, ministered to martyrs. So if he lived in Rome, he almost certainly saw a Lippercalia. That's.

[Kate Lister]

And that. That will have to do us.

[Emma Southern]

So we've got.

[Kate Lister]

That's what. He might have seen a goat as well, at some point.

[Emma Southern]

Exactly.

[Kate Lister]

You know. Oh, well, I don't know if that's disappointing or not. I suppose it's just. It's just a thing that happened, isn't it? Do you think there's any chance of us bringing the Lufakalia back?

[Emma Southern]

I'd be surprised, largely because people are very against sacrificing goats and dogs these days. And I think if you tried to.

[Kate Lister]

Be objected to, wouldn't it.

[Emma Southern]

It would be the possibility. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, you're right. You're right.

[Emma Southern]

They wouldn't like that at all. Like, we'd have to have vegan leather. Yeah. And I'd struggle to connect, like, vegan leg at leather to fertility, to be honest.

[Kate Lister]

So it's dead and gone. Oh, well.

[Emma Southern]

Rip.

[Kate Lister]

Rip. But it must have been very, very popular in its time for us to still be talking about it and still be wondering about it to this very day.

[Emma Southern]

I feel like it was probably like a carnival or something like that. Like, it's a day when everybody gets a day off work, everybody gets to run around. It's hysterical. Probably everybody's quite drunk, they get to have a big meal. It's like it's a fun day out for.

[Kate Lister]

Fun day out.

[Emma Southern]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

For a Roman, you have been brilliant to talk to yet again. You always are. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

[Emma Southern]

They can find [e-mail] or they can find me at Emma Sullivan on Instagram or they can find me on my podcast the History is Sexy where we are recording an episode on the Marquis de Sade tomorrow. So very sexy.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, if anybody knew anything about whipping anyone with a bit of a goat, it was him.

[Emma Southern]

Yeah, quite joylessly, I have to say, having read later.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, thank you so much for coming on. You've been marvelous.

[Emma Southern]

A pleasure as always. Thank you.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Emma for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you want us to explore a subject or maybe you wanted to send us a Valentine's Day card, we don't need any goat hides, thank you very much. But you could email it to [e-mail] Coming up, we've got episodes on everything from the history of fatphobia to Michelangelo's sex life, all coming your way. This podcast was produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by History hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

[Jonathan Fields]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. This is Josh Hart from the Knicks. But NBA all star Jalen Brunson and I created a new video podcast, the Roommate Show. A Playmaker original. You know the vibes here are always immaculate. We're going to discuss our experiences on and off the court. You want to get into it? Is this.

[Emma Southern]

I'll just start with the topics. Hot. Yeah, I feel like we have to.

[Jonathan Fields]

Talk about it and really anything else that comes to mind. Today we have the man, the myth, the legend. Then we have exceptional guest with us today. He is a Emmy award winner, actor, filmmaker. He's a formal number one overall pick at two time Super Bowl MVP, four.

[Kate Lister]

Time All Star, two time All NBA.

[Jonathan Fields]

Got the 14th overall pick in 2015 draft. 10 year pro in his first year on the Knicks. Welcome to the show. Subscribe now for weekly episodes. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcast everywhere.

[Emma Southern]

Acas.com.