What Made You Ugly In Medieval Times?

Summary

"What Made You Ugly In Medieval Times?" – Episode Summary

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Host: Kate Lister
Guest: Eleanor Jarniger, Historian and Co-host of Gone Medieval
Release Date: May 9, 2025

In this engaging episode, host Kate Lister explores the intricate and often harsh beauty standards of the medieval period with esteemed historian Eleanor Jarniger. Together, they uncover how perceptions of beauty and ugliness were deeply intertwined with social status, morality, and cultural norms during the Middle Ages.

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1. Introduction to Medieval Beauty Standards

Kate sets the stage by contrasting the often grim stereotypes of medieval life with the nuanced beauty standards that existed. Contrary to popular belief, beauty was not entirely neglected; there were specific ideals that defined attractiveness.

Notable Quote:
Eleanor Jarniger [05:07]: "These standards within Europe and, you know, more particularly kind of in the Mediterranean, literal are pretty much ossified for a really long time."

2. Beauty and Morality: The Divine Connection

The discussion delves into the medieval intertwining of beauty with moral virtue. Beauty was often seen as a reflection of inner goodness, linking physical appearance to spiritual purity.

Notable Quote:
Eleanor Jarniger [10:07]:
"If you're beautiful, then you're just a good person."

Kate humorously relates this to modern "pretty privilege," emphasizing that the association between beauty and virtue has longstanding roots.

3. The Role of Makeup and Physical Appearance

Medieval makeup practices were minimal and heavily regulated. Excessive use of makeup was frowned upon and even criminalized, as it was seen as deceptive and morally corrupting.

Notable Quote:
Eleanor Jarniger [17:54]:
"If you find out that a sex worker was using makeup, that's fraud."

This strict regulation reflects the societal expectation for women to appear naturally beautiful without artificial enhancements.

4. Skincare Routines in the Middle Ages

Kate and Eleanor explore historical skincare practices, highlighting that medieval women were proactive about maintaining their appearance despite limited resources.

Notable Quote:
Eleanor Jarniger [35:22]:
"She leaves us, like, toner recipes... Take the barley, boil it up, put the water on your skin."

They discuss recipes from historical texts like the Trotula, which provided guidelines for skincare using natural ingredients such as barley and honey.

5. Body Types: Fat and Thin

The ideal female body in medieval times favored a pear shape—small breasts and a fuller waist and hips—symbolizing fertility and wealth. This contrasted with the modern obsession with the hourglass figure.

Notable Quote:
Eleanor Jarniger [43:54]:
"You want tiny little tits... and a luscious little pot belly."

Kate draws parallels to contemporary beauty standards, noting the cyclical nature of body type preferences.

6. Race and Beauty in the Medieval Era

Contrary to the misconception that medieval Europe was homogeneous, there was notable racial diversity. Eleanor references art like Hieronymus Bosch's The Garden of Earthly Delights to illustrate the inclusion of Black individuals, highlighting that beauty standards also encompassed multicultural traits.

Notable Quote:
Eleanor Jarniger [46:51]:
"A really great place to go see hot black people is one of my favorite paintings of all time, which is Hieronymus Bosch's The Garden of Earthly Delights."

7. Male Beauty Standards

While female beauty standards were more rigid, medieval men also adhered to specific ideals. A desirable medieval man was muscular yet slightly soft, indicating both strength and affluence. Cleanliness and fashionable attire, such as tights, were also important.

Notable Quote:
Eleanor Jarniger [30:42]:
"Medieval male hotties are a little bit muscular, but a little bit of meat on the bones."

8. Ugliness and Moral Judgment

Ugliness in the medieval period was often equated with moral failings or sin, particularly for those with physical disfigurements or diseases like leprosy. This association justified social ostracization and stigmatization.

Notable Quote:
Eleanor Jarniger [42:12]:
"If you're not hot, then you must be evil."

Kate and Eleanor critique this harsh judgment, acknowledging the cruelty of such beliefs.

9. Hygiene and Dental Care

Contrary to the "dirty Middle Ages" myth, medieval people placed a high value on hygiene. They practiced regular dental care using tools like licorice roots and had fewer cavities due to limited sugar consumption.

Notable Quote:
Kate Lister [39:02]:
"Talk about teeth a lot."

10. Conclusion: The Legacy of Medieval Beauty Standards

Kate and Eleanor wrap up by reflecting on how medieval beauty standards have influenced contemporary perceptions of beauty and morality. They highlight the persistent link between appearance and social value, noting that while some standards have evolved, the underlying pressures remain.

Notable Quote:
Eleanor Jarniger [46:08]:
"We change whatever it is we think is hot to be whatever is the most difficult or expensive thing to acquire."

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Key Takeaways

• Beauty as Social Currency: Pale skin and specific body types signified wealth and status.
• Morality Linked to Appearance: Physical beauty was often seen as a reflection of inner virtue, while ugliness was unjustly associated with moral failings.
• Regulated Enhancements: Excessive makeup was frowned upon and even criminalized, emphasizing natural beauty.
• Racial Diversity in Beauty: Medieval Europe was more racially diverse than commonly depicted, with inclusive beauty standards.
• Male Standards: Medieval men were expected to be muscular yet slightly soft, maintaining cleanliness and fashionable attire.
• Hygiene Practices: Contrary to myths, medieval people valued hygiene and had effective dental care practices.
• Enduring Pressures: Many medieval beauty standards and societal pressures continue to echo in modern times.

This episode provides a nuanced understanding of medieval beauty standards, challenging modern misconceptions and highlighting the deep-rooted connections between appearance, morality, and social standing.

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

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[Kate Lister]

Hello my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister, and you are listening to Betwixt the Sheets. And I'm so glad that you are. But before we can continue together, I have to protect you from me, Chris, quite frankly. And my guest this time. Absolutely. There's no doubt about that. And we do that by giving you the fair dues warning. So here it is. This is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult, too. Oh well, I feel safer. Do you feel safer? Let's do it. Village life as a medieval peasant wasn't all bad, you know. I mean, as long as you don't mind a stick steady stream of root vegetables in your diet and living in the same room as your livestock and, well, I can't get this mud out of my hair for love no money. But if you can put that to one side, there are some very pretty things to be found. There are lots of theories out there about how life looked and smelled during the medieval period, and most of it tells us it looked and smelt grim. Let's be completely honest, these visual stereotypes present us with quite a hard world, and a filthy one at that. So how did medieval people maintain beauty standards and what did they have to do to be considered ugly?

[Eleanor Jarniger]

What are you a funny man? Oh, money. Of course.

[Kate Lister]

You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Goodness.

[Kate Lister]

What a beautiful diamond. Goodness has nothing to do with it, dearie. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. Welcome to the latest episode in our mini series on historical beauty standards. And today we are getting medieval. They have a lot of things in common with the ancient Romans. They all loved a pale face. But they do have some very interesting quirks all of their own, such as Christianity, which really takes off in the medieval period and had notions of beauty linked to original sin. Turns out all that sinning can have a pretty damning effect on a girl's beauty regime. How did they navigate this complete minefield? How were people of colour viewed in the medieval period of. And what would a good skincare routine look like back then? Joining us today is the completely beautiful and brilliant author and historian Eleanor Jarniger, co host of our sister podcast Gone Medieval, and we love her very much. Tweezers at the ready, everybody. Let's do this. Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's Eleanor Jaudicega. How are you doing?

[Eleanor Jarniger]

I'm very well, Kate. I live here now.

[Kate Lister]

This is my house. Yeah, that's not true.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Well, you know, it's about to be mine.

[Kate Lister]

It's. Well, yeah, we can just live here. Now. This is the Betwixt the Sheets, slash medievally speaking crossover pad. Thank you for dropping by, though. We are here to talk about medieval beauty standards.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Oh, there's a one. I think that's kind of annoying, though, when you talk about medieval beauty standards, is. It's kind of like, yes, all right, I'm going to talk about medieval things because you can't stop me.

[Kate Lister]

Yep.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

No, can't stop, won't stop.

[Kate Lister]

Nope.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

But fundamentally, these standards within Europe and, you know, more particularly kind of in the Mediterranean, literal are pretty much ossified for A really long time. So, you know. Yeah, I could be talking about, I don't know, France in the 1300s. But it's also kind of true of like Morocco in like the 10th century.

[Kate Lister]

You know, there are some consistent things. What I'm learning, I haven't done this little mini series and doing little time traveling trips to different places is there are some constants that like wherever you go. That was an attractive thing. Clear skin. I have yet to find anybody going. Actually we kind of want you to it up a bit. That doesn't happen. No, healthy. That's like a really big one with maybe a few detours. Remember heroin chic in the 90s? Oh yeah, remember that one?

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Well, it's back, baby. Because the 90s are back. So.

[Kate Lister]

No, keep it away. No, I want my high waisted jeans. But I was also thinking like, not only there's some constants of like healthy young. That's another one. Again, I have yet to find anyone that thinks as you get older and older you get more attractive. That doesn't happen. But even if we just think about our lifetimes, how much beauty trends come and go, like in the 90s. Right. And I was thinking, because I know it's going to come and torture. And I was making a mental list of beauty fads that have come and gone in our lifetime. Number one, concealer lips. Do you remember them? Yeah.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

And then with like the dark liner around. Yes. That showgirls liner girl. That showgirls liner.

[Kate Lister]

Super low rise jeans girl.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

What a horrible time to live through my 20s.

[Kate Lister]

You had to shave to put those.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Just, you know, I've emerged into the world is what. And they were like, put these on. Oh, by the way, your fly is like 2 inches long. I mean just like it was kind of like a notion at that point.

[Kate Lister]

Thong hanging out the back. We don't do any. And like the height of sophistication on the red carpet was jeans and a nice top.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Okay. Do you remember though at the same time the jeans under the dress thing?

[Kate Lister]

Oh my God, yes.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Hideous.

[Kate Lister]

Oh no. Yeah.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Oh yeah.

[Kate Lister]

But it just threw up. But my point is, is like, look how much these things come and go within a few years. So even though things are constant when it comes to beauty standards, there must have been things coming in and things going out because the medieval period, as I've learned from you, is a thousand years of history.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Absolutely. And so there are things that we, we don't necessarily know about what's going on at certain periods of time. So like the early Middle Ages, when we have fewer sources for them because 1500 years is a really long time ago, you know, and it's hard. It's hard to get sources for that. And also, culturally, they just kind of don't write things down in terms of what descriptions are. So we don't know that much about what's going on in, say, the year 650, because no one was like, hey, she is really hot and she looks like this. The thing that they'll do is they'll write down that someone is really beautiful.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

And you're like, thanks. You know, and. And. And that isn't really expanded upon. And this is super common, though, because even if you go back to, for example, the ancient Greeks, and they're like, helen of Troy, you' like, oh, yeah, okay, the most beautiful woman on Earth. And they're like, she's blonde, and that's it. And they're like, anything else? They're like, absolutely not. That's just. That's. That's all it takes, baby. And, you know, even within that, when you're looking at classical women that are portrayed as beautiful, you know, again, like from things like the Trojan wars, you'll have, like, polycaena, and they'll be like, oh, yeah, she's not. Not too tall.

[Kate Lister]

And that's. Yeah. And like, it's not giving you much to work with, is it?

[Eleanor Jarniger]

There's absolutely nothing. So, you know, this isn't a particularly medieval thing. And so, you know, even when we are looking at ancient standards of beauty, we gotta go look at, like, statues, Right. You know what you need to go find, like, Aphrodite bathing and things like that. And, you know, these are pretty uniform. And, you know, medieval people saw those statues, right?

[Kate Lister]

Those are.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Those are things that they saw with their eyes because it wasn't like they were underground or something. So, you know, that must have persisted in some places. But what we definitely know about early medieval beauty standards is they're like, to be beautiful is kind of like to be righteous.

[Kate Lister]

I'm sensing that as developing as a theme, you know, this sort of pretty privilege, but on an epic scale of, like, if you're beautiful, then you're just a good person.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

And it's like you have all this time, like, where this is a legitimate cause for philosophical debate. So people are like, why is it that the chick I really want to bang is also so holy and good? And they're like, well, it's because. It's because God created the world, right? God created nature. And, you know, God Created the Garden of Eden. He created everything that exists. And when we were still in the Garden of Eden, you know, we were. We were close by God. We were just, like, in his image. Right. And, you know, then things went south. You know, Eve ate the pomegranate or the apple or whatever it is you want it to be. We got kicked out. Bada bing, bada boom. But naturally, things are close to God because God made the physical world. So therefore, things that naturally are beautiful are close to God. And then that's how you kind of get spiritual perfection.

[Kate Lister]

That is some mental gymnastics, isn't it? That is a hell of a way of saying we always think that the people we want to shag are amazing.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

And they are for a bit. I've never, ever wanted to shag some man who was terrible. No, that.

[Kate Lister]

You learn that later.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah, Put that on record. Always. Right, right.

[Kate Lister]

That's what happens later. And you realize, damn it, the pretty man did it again. Curses the medieval people. Now, this is. This is thrown a bit of a conundrum my way because what I know from you and your work is that they didn't like pretty women.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Okay, Look, So you could be more than one thing.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

You can be massively horny and also angry about it. Like, since time immemorial, men have been mad that chicks are pretty.

[Kate Lister]

There we go.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Right? And then it goes back to Eve in, like, these theological conceptions because, like, one of the things about Eve and pictures that you see of Eve and absolute stone cold batty. Right? Like just a dime piece, like, always. Always upholding the beauty standards at the time. Because, of course she does. Because she's in the Garden of Eden.

[Kate Lister]

And they have makeup counters.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yes. Just picking the lip gloss off of the trees. So it's. But it is like one of these things where, of course, she's a spiritual perfection at the time. And then also this is, you know, the opportunity that you have to paint a hot, naked chicken. So, like, let us not forget that there are ways to just kind of, like, have some fun with this. Right? So she is always going to be portrayed as, like, really, really beautiful, but she's also the vector for which sin came into the world.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

You know, she's also the reason why we have death. She's, you know, she's the cause of original sin. So very particularly a hot chick did all this.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. You wouldn't have had a five doing this, would you?

[Eleanor Jarniger]

No. Absolutely no. Mids. It's just like, this is. This is hot chick behavior.

[Kate Lister]

This is like this is hot chick.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah. Like, you know, you know, all her friends are like, honestly, girl work. You know, like, ooh, she's so dramatic. She is the drama, etc. But I mean, fundamentally this also is linked to the fact that the beauty then becomes sexual. Yeah. Because part of the fall of man isn't just that Adam and Eve realized they're naked. Right. It's that they realize they're naked and they're turned on by it.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

So because you know, like they just didn't know to be turned on before. So like this being attracted, that's kind of like the next step. That's, that's the issue. Right.

[Kate Lister]

And you get this weird cognitive distance that arrives. It's not just the medieval period that you see. This is that they want women to be beautiful but not aware that they're beautiful because then that's bad. They want them to be sexually attractive but not too much. And they can't flaunt that at any point. They need to be unbelievably beautiful, but also innocent. What we would now call the no makeup. Makeup look. Just completely natural. Like long tresses of blonde hair, not made up. I think a really good example of that is in the Canterbury Tales when you've got. So you've got the miller's tail. And he describes this 18 year old girl called Alison.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Alison. They're all Alison.

[Kate Lister]

They're all so many.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Alison.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, it's like Chaucen, pick another name. And she is kind of slutty and she's like really heavily made up. And he really goes to town describing her slow eyebrows and her hair's pulled back and she's got loads of pleats on her and stuff. And then there's the Knight's Tale where another girl is described and she is described as also very beautiful. But it's a very different type of beauty. It's not made up. It's just like. Not like doves and bluebirds follow her around singing songs. And she literally skips through gardens singing, doesn't she?

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah. And I mean this is what medieval people would tell you is true beauty. So it is 100% that you're just supposed to be beautiful. Just be beautiful. Just be. There is an ossified beauty archetype. And by the way, if you don't live up to this, we think you're sinful and evil.

[Kate Lister]

But.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

But I swear to God, girl, if you pluck your eyebrows.

[Kate Lister]

Trouble. No. Then you're a bad woman.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Which also I think it's really funny because Medieval people are constantly talking about, like, chicks, eyebrows, and how hot their eyebrows are. And I remember, like, a few years ago, do you remember when there was, like, the really, like, really heavy brows? There would be videos from men being like, no man has ever been attracted to eyebrows. I'm like, baby, actually, we got 100 years of history where men are like, oh, oh, you see the eyebrows on.

[Kate Lister]

That one eyebrow Trends do come and go.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Kate Lister]

And definitely Alison in the Miller's Tale, she get her eyebrows get a mention.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

And so eyebrows become this particular site of worry for men, obviously, because they're like. I go, I hope that her arch, they have to be arched and hopefully black, right? You're supposed to be blonde with black eyebrows. You know, that thing. That thing that exists without makeup, Right? Yeah, absolutely. And so this. There's a particular story about this where there's a guy who. He's very in love with his wife. And she was so beautiful and, like, wonderful, but she dies, you know, in the way that people do. So he pays this monk, who can have ecstatic visions to, like, go check in on his wife in the afterlife and tell him how he's doing. So monk takes the money, has ecstatic vision, and comes back. It's like, yeah, your wife is in hell, and your wife is in hell, and demons are gnawing at her eyebrows and at her hairline. And because you thought she was beautiful, but actually she plucked her eyebrows and her hairline. And so now her ironic punishment in the afterlife is that demon's gnaw the places that she used to pluck. And it's like, so. But your wife kind of sucked, actually. I think you'll find it. But it's like, not only is there this real pressure to have these specific eyebrows, but if you do anything about it, you're going to hell. And it's because makeup or any kind of intervention is seen as a form of trickery, right? Like, to the point where there are laws on the books, like here in London, where if you find out that a sex worker that you frequented was using makeup, that's fraud, and you can go ask for your money back. I mean, granted, you're gonna be left out of the stews, but.

[Kate Lister]

Yes. Did anyone ever enforce that?

[Eleanor Jarniger]

I mean, good luck. Right? You know, but. But it's on the books, right? So, like, in theory, that's in there. And so the idea is like, well, this is false advertising. You're not really beautiful because you want.

[Kate Lister]

Me to come home and meet your mother. Jesus. Like, what do you mean, like, it's. You're paying for a quick shag up against a wall. I know.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

And it's just like, oh, my God, Like, I'm sorry. Like, were you writing love poetry to this woman? She does not care. Right. Like, this is a businesswoman, thank you very much. But It's.

[Kate Lister]

You're no 6 foot 2 either.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

I know. I mean, like. And to the point where, you know, when you have poor Allison in the Miller's Tale, they're like. And she thinks she's really hot, and I'm like. I mean, you're still kind of like, literarily wanking over her, like, really quite intensely as well. Yeah. And so it's. It's sort of like you are making her into a figure of fun, but you still think she's hot. Yes, but she's the wrong kind of hot.

[Kate Lister]

Don't we do that today? That's still a bind that women are in today. Point in case. The Kardashians. I love to return to them again and again, always. But they occupy that same space of, like, they're judged for how they look, but they also influence how people look. We also hate them for what they do and how they're made up and artificial, but they're also adored for it, and they make them. And it becomes really weird and complex. And it's that same artifice that people in the medieval period got angry about.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Where the. The trouble here is that these people are aware. Yeah. And that. And that's a big part of it, as you mentioned. It's like, you're not supposed, you know, to. To quote One Direction. You don't know you're beautiful. Right. Like, that's the thing that you're supposed to be doing is that you're just supposed to meet this standard and also be blithely unaware of all of society.

[1-800-Flowers]

Am I really beautiful?

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Oh, wow. I didn't. I didn't notice that I look like every single statue in the church.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Like, every painting I've ever seen. And also, no one's ever mentioned this to me. Like, in a society completely obsessed with the way that women look.

[Kate Lister]

And if you can be unsexual as well, that's a help. Just going back against the Canterbury Tales, because Emily, the really beautiful one with the bluebirds, tweeted, she wanted to be a virgin all her life. She wanted to be a priestess of somewhat or other, some virgin goddess. So, like, the idea as well, that you're. You're not even supposed to be sexual. You're just this beautiful Disney princess wandering around.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Well, like we see this for example in the pearl poem as well. So you know, in the pearl poem, the like little girl dies and she's like 2 and then her dad sees her in heaven and she's like a 16 year old hottie.

[Kate Lister]

Uncomfortable.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah. And it's. And he's like, oh, isn't it great that she's so hot? And it's because, you know, she's kept the spiritual perfection because she was a virgin and she died and da da, da. And she never did anything wrong. And so there's this idea that our souls, when they go to heaven and indeed like when we rise from the grave on judgment day, our bodies are going to be at the height of their powers. Like we're going to be, we're going to be as good as we are. And so hilariously, for women, this is like, yeah, 16, like, you know, you're supposed to be a maiden, which means like you've achieved sexual maturity but you haven't had sex yet. Right. And for men it's middle age.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, for fuck's sake.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Right. So like go look at, go look at any, you know, picture of the last judgment and everyone, all the little naked souls getting up out of their graves. It's a bunch of baddies. And then like middle aged dudes.

[Kate Lister]

Do you want to be 16 again? What an awful idea that.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Oh my God. It's like, have you ever spoken to a 16 year old girl?

[Kate Lister]

Also never want to go through that nonsense again.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Like, it is horrifying.

[Kate Lister]

That is not judgment day. Shit, let me be 16 in my swamp witch era.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

I mean, look, let me tell you also like, as you know, a noted elder millennial, we definitely lived through that with like Britney Spears.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

For example, where it was like, look at her. And then they would like parade her around and be like, say you're a virgin.

[Kate Lister]

Say it, do it.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

It's like while they're like. And also take all your clothes off and please gyrate. You know, and it was like a really weird time to be alive where you're just like, huh, this thing of kind of simultaneously commodifying women who haven't had sex yet, but sexualizing them so it's like they can't be sexual, but you're going to be sexual at them.

[Kate Lister]

And so all over them.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah, exactly. And then like every woman who like notices that this is happening, it's like your fault for noticing. You're just supposed to be blindly unaware.

[Kate Lister]

So this is Kind of why they have this link of, if you're beautiful, you must be spiritually pure somehow, because the ideal beauty is somehow unaware and innocent. What the fu happens when you get older? You're only 16 for one year. That's all you get at being 16. You've got a long way to go after that.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Well, luckily, you'll be a mommy soon, and then all your worries are over.

[Kate Lister]

And then you don't need to be attracted.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Then you don't need to be attracted, because now you're a mommy. Now you're a mommy. And, like. And this is. Although, you know, obviously there are cases where this doesn't happen. So, you know, very famously, Eleanor of Aquitaine is incredibly hot. And everyone is like, stupid, sexy Eleanor of Aquitaine. Like, and they're so angry about it because, like, she's, like, really, really hot and doesn't behave like they want her to behave. I know there's constantly rumors swirling as a result. They're like, oh, she's shagging her uncle. You know, she's dead. And 200 years later, they're like, she was shagging Saladin. It's like, homie, how? Literally, how did that happen? You know? And like, these are things that even the Victorians are repeating later. So there are women who continue to meet the beauty standard later. And when they enter the record, people are furious. They're like, no, you're not supposed to be doing that anymore because you're supposed to kind of, like, transcend. You're supposed to get into motherhood, and then this is going to be, like, a moot point. And, you know, then people will say, you were an excellent wife. You were an excellent mother. But still, having said that, it's like medieval literary tradition is absolutely full of people's really hot wives who are, like, cuckolding them or not.

[Kate Lister]

Wife of bath.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Wife of bath.

[Kate Lister]

Is she hot? I'm just. She has a very detailed description. She's another Alison. Yeah, she's 40, all of 40 years old, and. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Can you imagine?

[Kate Lister]

And she. She's got a gap between her tooth. I remember that.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

She is slightly red in the face, which is good. Which is that. That's good.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

So. So what you want is you want white skin but rosy cheeks. And oftentimes in literary sources, it's referred to as a complexion of snow and roses.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, wow.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Which is very.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, okay.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

So she's got that. The gap tooth. I remember that. That she's got a gap between her teeth. I can't remember what her eyebrows were like, is she a sexy figure? She talks about sex all the time.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

It's really difficult to say. Because she's sexualized? Yeah, certainly. And I think that it's very difficult to not then kind of like put, put her in sexy situations as a result. But she's kind of representing people's worry about widows more particularly, even though, you know, she's a wife at this per this point in her life. But this idea that, you know, older women are sexually aware of what they want, they're experienced and they have money, right. So they can kind of pick and choose what they want to do. They can marry men for whatever reason they wish to or not. You know, so they. Then you get into this kind of like limbo where there's a specific worry about widows where it's like, oh, these widows are out here being hot. And you know, like they are out of control. You know, they don't have fathers to shove them in one way or another, or brothers, you know, like, maybe your sons can be like mom, knock it off. But you know, they're just going to do what they do. So there is also this kind of like moral gray area that they fall into.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, all right, that's. That's interesting. But not. They're not regarded as beautiful in the same way as.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

No, I mean, because like to be young is to be beautiful within a lot of these things. I mean, if you look at the Decameron, for example, there's just endless stories of cuckolding. It's just like that's, that's all there is. And you know, also stories of like a really beautiful women who are kind of younger. So you know, for example, you got the story of. It's the, it's the King of Babylon, which is Egypt, to like, do not look. I can't explain it to you. And she's really hot and is supposed to get married off to the king of the Algarve and gets set on a boat and like the boat shipwrecks. And then there's like a series of stories where every man who comes into contact with her is like, oh, like, you know, you know, talk on the floor. It becomes a cartoon wolf and they like are all killing each other and kidnapping her. And then like the minute you show her a dick, she's like, oh, well, I guess this is fine, you know, and it's like, it's absolutely incredible, right? And so she kind of gets passed like from hand to hand through like I think eight different dudes.

[Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

And Then, like, eventually finds her way home to her father and makes up this great story about how she was actually the whole time, like, do not worry, dad, virginity intact. Because I was hanging out at the nunnery of St Crescent in the hole.

[Kate Lister]

Of course you were.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah, great, great little euphemism there. And you know, like, we are Muslim, but, you know, these Christians safeguarded me in any way I can marry the prince of the Algarve. And he's like, you sure can. And this is a story of a woman who's kind of like in her teens to 20s. And they're like, she maintains her beauty and her sexuality all throughout these subsequent changes of sexual partners and to the point where she's like married off with all honors in the end. And it's kind of like a happily ever after. So what we lear is that there are these sort of conceits where it's like, oh, you're supposed to be holy. In order to be beautiful, you've got to be a 16 year old. You need to be a virgin. In theory. In practice, if we're seeing what people actually do and what's going on with their lives, there's a lot more room for interpretation about where beauty lies and whether or not, you know, sexual women are indeed sexy. Because in this case, yes, absolutely.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Eleanor after this short break.

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[Eleanor Jarniger]

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[Kate Lister]

I feel like we should finish up by talking about men being attractive because this conversation always focuses on women because they're the ones that have had the pressure put on them to look a certain way. But men feel the pressure too. What was a medieval male hottie?

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Oh, well. So the medieval male hottie, as a general rule of thumb, a little bit muscular, but a little bit of meat on the bones. You know, they go for, they go for like, oh, there's food in the house. Yeah, right. You know, like that. That's hot. So if you got like a little bit of a belly that like, that's, that's no problem. Do not worry about that. There is like a lot of like men kind of like exercising to exercise and like, you know, to maintain their figure. So it's like quite cute. Like there is. Do you even lift, bro? In the medieval period. But they're just like picking up big rocks. Like it's a lot more like a strongman competition. That's very amazing. So they'll be like exercise regimens and things like that. The other big one is like being clean.

[Kate Lister]

Clean. That's a constant.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah, everybody likes it when you're clean. So there's like rather a lot of that. You got to like comb your hair, brush your teeth.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, all of those things don't stink.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, there's rather a lot of that. And then dress is a big one. Yeah. So one big difference I think between now and with medieval men is medieval men be showing it off. Right. Like it becomes a huge issue in the 14th century when the Black Death is going on. Because a lot of men are like, look, if I'm gonna die tomorrow, I'm wearing hose. Right? And they're like, they got it out. Like they're like wearing super, super pointy shoes and the bishops in England are furious and they're writing about this and they' God is punishing us with the Black Death. Because these men are wearing tights. And like everything that we see has them like wearing tights. And then, but then there's kind of like this, these equivalent of women shouldn't wear makeup is you shouldn't go too crazy on the clothes.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

So like if your tights are party colored, so like they are green and purple or something like that. I mean, well, probably not purple. Only kings can wear purple. But I don't know, green and red, right? Like that is like really pushing the button. That's too much. And it's like everyone agrees it's sexy but it's like gauche.

[Kate Lister]

So I've noticed that there's a lot of discussion around men's legs. That's. Oh yeah, that's one thing. You don't say that as much. It'd be a bit weird if you did say that nice legs on a guy. Like it wouldn't be like, you know, institutional behavior. But like you just don't say that about them today.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

People go, I mean, I suppose but like, like do not skip leg day.

[Kate Lister]

Okay, so think about legs.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah. And because they're wearing tights and things. Right. And so it's, it's one of these things that's interesting with clothes theory where it's kind of like a chicken or the egg situation is like, dude, we find legs sexy. And so men were wearing tights or were men. You know, like did the finding men's legs sexy come out of the wearing tights thing?

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, so.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

And I mean then especially in the later medieval period and into the early modern period, could throw a card piece on that.

[Kate Lister]

Yes. Yeah. That was a weird moment in fashion history, that one. You know, remember the first time I saw a card piece, I thought it would just be like, like a cup that, you know, rugby players wear. It's a full on penis. You can hang things off that.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Absolutely. And you know, it goes to show that medieval people and early modern people are a lot less prudish than we are. They're just like, I know you're looking at it. So I'm going to make it look like that. That's, that's what's going on, you know, and so there are a lot, a lot more comfort around the genital area. But then there are kind of, I guess some surprising things that medieval people do. Like bald men are kind of sexy, for example. It's because they're very manly. They're very masculine because the idea is they are so hot and dry, which makes them very masculine, that their hair is burnt off. So it's like a. Humorally, there's kind of like, nothing wrong with being bald. Like, unless you're bald because you're old. Like, it's. It's like a young bald guy thing. It's like, you know, if you've got the Jason Statham, Jason Statham, call me.

[Kate Lister]

If you want to sponsor this.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

It's fine. It'll be fine. So, you know, like, this. This is the thing that universally is kind of like, agreed, is pretty hot. But it's interestingly, like, scientific. You know, now when, like, weirdo evo psychologists will be like, well, we've always found exactly the same thing attractive about women, which is hourglasses. And I'm like, no, dude. Like, absolutely not. No, it was pear shapes for Europeans anyway. Like, they were like, well, scientifically, bald men are hot because the humors. And it means basically exactly the same thing as evo psychologists going off on one now. So, you know, like, you can treat it with as much respect. Right.

[Kate Lister]

So if you're a medieval person and you want a. You want a decent skincare routine, very important, still important to everybody today. Cleanse, tone, moisturize. But you didn't have that so much. If you're a medieval person. What would be your go to routine?

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Well, we actually have recipes and routines that are left to us from a couple of different sources, one of which is our girl, Hildegard von Bingen.

[Kate Lister]

I like her.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

She was a skincare girly.

[Kate Lister]

I love that.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah. Like, she leaves us, like, toner recipes. She's like, girl, this is how you make barley water. Which to me was always kind of just like a Mary Poppins, the musical reference, but it's like a toner thing. So, you know, in the way where we'll use kind of like colloidal oatmeal now, like, in order to, like, moisturize. So you can do the same thing with barley. So it should be like, this is what you do, girl. Take the barley, boil it up, put the water on your skin. It'll soften it, and it will, you know, and this is something that's really available to most women.

[Kate Lister]

I've seen barley skin care scrubs and things available in Shop.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah, Exactly. So that 100% existed at the time. We also have, like, if you have a little bit more money, a lot more skincare recipes, recipes that survived to us in the trotula. And so this Is kind of like, you know, it starts out as an OB GYN manual, and then people are like. And also makeup tips, you know. So this has lots and lots of different recipes for all sorts of things. How to treat sunburn, good moisturizers to use after you're out in the sun, softer cleansers for your face. Because there is kind of some acknowledgment of the fact that your skin might get a little bit rough if you're just using sort of like the soap that you're using on the rest of your body. So they will be like, oh, you know, add rose petals, add honey. There's rather a lot of adding honey to things in order to put it on your skin. There's also more extreme things. So, for example, there's rather a lot of stuff that is like, want to bleach your skin? Bleach your skin tonight, Queen. Bleaching your skin. And it's like a big concern for medieval women because especially, like, within the Mediterranean and European context text, pale skin is a really big beauty standard.

[Kate Lister]

Pale skin, Everyone seems to have been absolutely nuts for that until, like, the 1950s.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And essentially what it boils down to is that is a preference for rich ladies.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, Right.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Because, like, if you're a peasant and you're out working in the field all the time, your skin's gonna get messed up because they don't have spf. Right. And they know the sun will burn you and they're like. Or whatever. So being tan is a sign that you were like some poor peasant.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Who works outside. Right. Whereas being very, very pale is a sign that you've got the kind of money where you don't have a job outside. Yeah, Right. So that's very attractive. And that's across the board. Like, you know, you see that as much in Arabic poetry about beautiful women as you do French poetry about the same thing. So that, as a result, creates a demand in skincare routines for skin whitening products, some of which look pretty horrible. Like, you'll see examples in the trotula where they're like, yeah, put some quick lime in there, girl. And I'm like, do not put quick glime on your face.

[Kate Lister]

No.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Right. So. But it does kind of show us how there are some things that would absolutely work in terms of skincare, and then there are some where it's just like, you are so off piste right now. But it's to try to live up to this really difficult standard where, you know, most people are outside all the time. And they want to be pale.

[Kate Lister]

I think that this could be one of the periods in history where actually to be skint means that you'd probably have the better beauty products because you couldn't afford.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Lye or whatever the hell it was that you had to put on your face. You'd probably be better off with some barley and something you found.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So either you're. You're bang on there, where that stuff is kind of universally available, it's going to be more about, like, whether or not you've got the time to do it because, like, they're not the ones who are attempting to make blonde hair dye. Yeah, right. You know. Which you know exists. Absolutely. Like, they figured out ways to bleach your hair and that kind of thing. But, you know, it's rough.

[Kate Lister]

What about smelling good? Because one of the persistent myths about folk from the Middle Ages as. As you are well aware, is that they were all dirty and that they all stunk and no one had any teeth.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah, well, no. So 100, actually teeth is one of the big ones where medieval people probably had better teeth than we do now.

[Kate Lister]

Talk about teeth a lot.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah, they do. And it's like one of the things we have to keep in mind is that they don't really have access to sugar. Yeah. In the way that we do now. So most of our sugar is now coming from, like, sugar cane and stuff like that. And it certainly existed in medieval Europe, but it's coming to you in much smaller amounts and it comes from very far away and it's mad expensive. So you're just not eating sugar in every single thing in the way that we are now, which is the stuff that makes your teeth go wild. Right. And they brush their teeth so they've got toothbrushes, or they'll use kind of like little, like, licorice roots, things like that in order to, like, brush the stuff. And to be fair, toothpaste didn't work until the 1950s until we invented fluoride. Whatever you were brushing your teeth with, it's like, well, I hope you're having fun. Like, it makes your breath smell nice, but that's all it does. So honestly, if you compare the teeth of a medieval person with a person in the 1930s, probably the person in the medieval period is going to have better teeth because they have fewer things that are going to mess their teeth up.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Eleanor after this short break.

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[Kate Lister]

What about being ugly then? Like, we've spoken a lot about being beautiful. Ugly seems to be another one of those consistent things like disfigurement. They must have had a fair bit of disfigurement wandering around in the middle ages.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Oh, yeah. You know, you have issues, for example, like with leprosy, for example, is fairly endemic and common across Europe at the time, which can be pretty disfiguring. You know, if you come down with any diseases where you might end up with like pockmarks, we don't have smallpox or things like that yet. But you know, if you've got like chickenpox or something like that, that can really mess you up. Or, you know, even if you just end up having acne, you know, and your, your skin gets scarred. These are all things that are going to count against you. And certainly it is a specific thing where ugliness will be associated with evil, right? Like where if you're not hot, well, then you must be evil. And then that gives me reason why I'm allowed to kind of exclude you from society. So we see this in particular with people who have leprosy because they will be like, well, they kind of were asking for it, right? So there is this way of talking about people with leprosy as though they brought it on themselves because they were lustful, they were gluttonous, they are garrulous, they're just like shagging and fighting all the time. And that's how you end up with leprosy. So the idea is that they were sinful, which is why they've ended up up ugly like this.

[Kate Lister]

And then that just seems mean.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah, it's really mean. And it just gives you carte blanche to just kind of be a bit of a. To people who are having a really tough time.

[Kate Lister]

That's a cheap shot. Medieval people.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

I know. Look, I like them very much, but I didn't say they were perfect.

[Kate Lister]

They're not as bad as the Romans. They're hands down the maddest, most cruel. If something's not being killed, quite frankly, they're not having a good time. What about fat and thin in the medieval periods? Because that's something that fluctuates as well, where, like body shape, fat ratio.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah. So we want some fatness.

[Kate Lister]

Like they like a little bit of squish, don't they?

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah. So like, for the body standard for women remains pretty much ossified. And the thing that they are looking for is they want tiny little tits, the smallest boobs available. Right. Like the Cameron talks about, like, hot chicks boobs. And they're like, they're small and hard, like ivory. Right. That's. So that's what they're looking for. But you want what they call a luscious little pot belly.

[Kate Lister]

I can do that.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah. So that's hot. That's really hot. And then like junk in the trunk. You got to be packing heat back there. Okay. So we're looking for the pear shape.

[Kate Lister]

Done.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

And that's what they want. So it's kind of like. It wouldn't necessarily be like obese or anything, but they definitely want you to have.

[Kate Lister]

Have flesh cushion for the push.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah. And you know, again, this is one of these things where it's like, that means that there's like, money.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. It's weird how much beauty. And still today, if you want to look hot like a Vogue model, you know, like the money.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah, exactly. And we change whatever it is we think is hot to be whatever is the most difficult or expensive thing to acquire. So, you know, when everyone couldn't afford a Brazilian butt lift, the Kardashians have big old boots.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

And thank God for that. All right.

[Kate Lister]

And until quite recently, being overweight went from being something that only rich people could have because they could afford the food to actually now it's a sign of not having enough. Enough money and not being able to eat right and go to the gym. I wonder what's going to happen with the dawning of Ozempic. What will happen now?

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Well, yeah, we're already seeing, I think, this backlash where we are getting, like, thinner and thinner women now again being posited, as you know. I know, I know, girl.

[Kate Lister]

I Know, but.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

And again, we're doing the same thing now with the way that we talk about diet or the way that we talk about fat as medieval people do with beauty. Right. Where we really associate fatness with, like, some kind of moral inferiority. Yeah. Oh, well, you lack self control and you're unable. I would just. Oh, yeah. As though that has anything to do with how bodies work. And like, all of the science tells you that that's absolute junk.

[Kate Lister]

Well, thank you for fixing that, Steve. Cheers for that.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

But we love to do it. You know, there's something that our society just really enjoys to do, which is place a moral weight on what we consider attractive. As though what we consider attractive doesn't change.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, that's so true. Fat shape. Yeah. When you look at our attitude with fat today, I think you can actually get your head around a lot of historical attitudes with this linking of. Of moral worth with how you look. And what about race? Because one of the. The interesting things to come out of historical research in the past 30 years or so is, is that historians suddenly went, did anyone check on the black people? And then someone went, oh, no, we didn't. They're all here.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Damn. Well, you know, a really great place to go see hot black people is one of my favorite paintings of all time, which is Hiron Bosch's the Garden of Earthly Delights.

[Kate Lister]

Well, that is. That is a scene that he paints.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah, it is. It really, really is. And you can see very many hot, naked people, some of whom are black. And it's hilarious because they're just like, they look exactly the same, but they are black.

[Kate Lister]

I love that. Yeah, it's not true. I'm being very flippant, but it's not true that people in the Middle Ages would have only thought that white people existed. They were much more multicultural and diverse than we give them credit. Oh, God.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah. And I mean, like, especially places here like London, we know that there are lots of Africans around the shop. And honestly, it just makes us look like we suck here in Europe. If you think that there aren't black people about. I'm like, dude, people wanted to come here. Like, you know, there's a lot of trade back and forth. People are moving around all the time, and all you have to do is, like, sit down and read a medieval book. And they'll be like, oh. And then this person went on a voyage to wherever and they talk about it all time, the time in these really matter of fact ways. They talk about what the trade routes are, and people move along those routes just as much as goods do. So we, we know that a hundred percent you're coming into contact with other races. You know, probably they will do some light racism at you if you are black, especially because there is such a premium put on light skin. But we also know that they clearly think that these people are hot, which is why they get included in stuff like the garden of earthly people delights, where they're like, I want to make a big hot fruit orgy scene. There's going to be birds, real birds, and like women birds, and. And some of them are black. And they are also hot and sexy. And in my ideal garden orgy with giant berries, there will be black women as well. So there you go.

[Kate Lister]

So there might have been a sort of. It is still a type of racism, but. But an eroticizing of people that weren't white.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah, I mean, 100%. Like, I'm not like, please do not say. Don't let anyone say that. I said Hieronymus Bosch has perfect racial politics. But, you know, certainly he posits these people as people who can be attractive and certainly, like, on par. But of course, also, you know, the Garden of Earthly delights exists as, in theory, an admonishment like, don't you do it?

[Kate Lister]

He does also paint, like, frogs eating people's bottoms.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Yeah, exactly. It's like, you know, you paint the big. You paint the big, big garden orgy to be like. And you shouldn't like this.

[Kate Lister]

Don't threaten me with a good.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Which is how you get away with it. Right? You gotta, you gotta be like, oh, no, it's very bad.

[Kate Lister]

Stop looking at it. This is an awful scene.

[Eleanor Jarniger]

Oh, wow. I can't believe. Wow. Gotcha. I bet you think this is sexy, you pervert.

[Kate Lister]

Thanks for listening and thank you so much to Eleanor. You thank for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. Coming up, we've got episodes on the contraceptive pill and the third in this miniseries. What made you an ugo in Tudor times? This podcast was edited by Tim Arstall and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

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[Eleanor Jarniger]

Hey, this is Josie Santee from the Every Girl podcast, and this episode is brought to you by Nordstrom. Summer's here, and Nordstrom has everything you need for your best dressed season ever, from beach days and weddings to weekend getaways in your everyday wardrobe, discover stylish options under a hundred dollars from tons of your favorite brands like Mango Skims, Princess Polly, and Madewell. It's easy, too, with free shipping and free returns in store order, pickup, and more. Shop today in stores [e-mail] or download the Nordstrom app.