Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society

Episode: Who Was The Naughtiest Pope In History?

Host: Kate Lister | Guest: Catherine Fletcher
Date: September 19, 2025

Overview

In this rollicking episode, sex historian Kate Lister is joined by Renaissance historian and author Catherine Fletcher to expose the scandalous reign of Pope Alexander VI (Rodrigo Borgia) – arguably history’s naughtiest pope. Through lively conversation peppered with jaw-dropping stories, they explore the Borgia pope’s sex life, mistresses, family scandals, legendary orgies, and lasting influence on both the papacy and popular imagination.

Main Discussion & Key Points

Setting the Stage: The Borgia Pope and Renaissance Rome

[01:31–04:52]

• The episode opens with a vivid, time-traveling reimagining: Kate "arrives" at a wild Vatican party reportedly hosted by Pope Alexander VI, setting the tone for the episode’s irreverence and intrigue.
• Kate introduces guest Catherine Fletcher, expert on the Italian Renaissance, to help untangle truth from myth in the Borgia legend.

The Power and Context of the Papacy

[04:54–09:54]

• The Papal Role:
  • In the 15th century, the pope was not only the religious head of Western Christianity but also a powerful secular ruler of the Papal States, with immense diplomatic and territorial power.
  • Quote – Catherine Fletcher [09:54]:
    "He's a big deal and literally like the representative of Christ on Earth."
• Alexander VI’s Era:
  • Became pope in 1492—an era of global change (Columbus’ voyage) and church upheaval.

Celibacy, Sex & the Church’s Double Standard

[11:43–12:34]

• The Catholic priesthood, including popes, were officially celibate: “not meant to marry, not meant to have sex, not meant to have a mistress.”
  • But in practice, many cardinals and popes had mistresses and illegitimate children, provided they kept it discreet.
  • “Did it always happen like that? No.” – Catherine Fletcher [11:50]

Rodrigo Borgia: Origins, Ambitions, and Family Ties

[12:56–18:03]

• Rodrigo’s rise was facilitated by nepotism – his uncle was pope, leading to his own appointment as cardinal at a young age.
• Borgia’s ambition may have been circumstantial: he wasn’t the Vatican’s first-choice candidate, but political deadlock and his competence helped him win the papacy.

Scandalous Personal Life: Mistresses and Children

[18:05–28:51]

• Mistresses & Social Mobility:
  • Rodrigo Borgia had many children (7-9 or more) with different women; most publicly, with Vannozza dei Cattanei.
  • Vannozza parlayed her role as papal mistress into a business empire:
    Quote – Catherine Fletcher [24:55]:
    "By the time she is buried...she has amassed a fortune whereby she runs about 10% of the hotel business in Rome."
• Visibility of Scandal:
  • His mistresses and children were not hidden but celebrated and married into nobility in public spectacles, pushing boundaries of respectability.
  • Borgia’s second notable mistress, Giulia Farnese, was 16 when “matched” with the sixty-something pope, arranged for family ambition.
    • Her brother, nicknamed “the petticoat cardinal,” gained his rank via her relationship with the pope.

Open Scandal and Dangerous Rumors

[31:16–34:07]

• The Borgias’ open flouting of social and religious norms incited scandal, but public criticism was often muted by fear of Borgia retaliation.
  • Quote – Catherine Fletcher [31:37]:
    “People don't tend to say very much about the Borgias...they're quite nervous about the consequence of saying very much.”
• Rumors of murder, secret pregnancies, and incest swirled around the family – sometimes born of political necessity, sometimes pure salacious gossip.

The Banquet of Chestnuts: Orgies in the Vatican

[34:15–40:23]

• Most infamously, tales abound of “The Banquet of Chestnuts”—a Halloween party featuring fifty courtesans, nudity, sexual contests involving chestnuts, and orgies at the Vatican itself.
  • Quote – Catherine Fletcher [38:37]:
    “There is definitely an out-of-hand Halloween party that went on in the Vatican at that point...it just sort of...adds fuel to the fire.”
• These rumors, plus allegations of incest between Lucrezia, Cesare, and Pope Alexander, further inflamed their reputation – aided by anti-Spanish and anti-foreigner sentiment in Rome.

Women of the Borgia Circle: Outrage and Opportunity

[23:46–28:51, 40:23–41:50]

• Women close to the papacy, like Vannozza and Lucrezia Borgia, defied expectations: running businesses, holding land, and—even more unusually—being wielded as open political actors.
  • Lucrezia at times governed papal territories, shocking even by scandal-tolerant Renaissance standards.

The End of Alexander VI and the Legacy of Scandal

[45:02–52:49]

• Alexander died in 1503, possibly of poisoning (though unclear), passing his power—and notoriety—onto his children.
• His model of papal corruption and sensuality became a Protestant talking-point in later church disputes, and a source for centuries of lurid storytelling.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Scandal as Legacy:
  • “The thing we remember him for is the scandal. And, you know, the thing about the scandal is it was there in his own time...then it's also written up in an opera...and up to this day, we get the TV shows…”
    – Catherine Fletcher, [49:23]
• Vannozza’s Remarkable Ascent:
  • “She is the person who makes her reputation and makes her money off the Borgias and who they are and what they could give her...does that dozen years or so as mistress and walks away from it with a fortune.”
    – Catherine Fletcher, [52:49]
• Why the Borgias Were Singled Out:
  • “The visibility of the family at the Papal court, lots of people are always like, well, you know, it would only be a small step from this for them to actually be behaving in even worse transgressive ways.”
    – Catherine Fletcher, [36:43]
• Host’s Wry Summation:
  • “You can absolutely see how they would have been like a huge—not a hit with the Protestants—but that was just gold for them, what they did and what this story was.”
    – Kate Lister, [51:06]

Key Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:31] – Episode opens: Kate’s Vatican party daydream
• [04:52] – Introduction of guest Catherine Fletcher
• [06:41] – How the Vatican handles Alexander VI’s legacy
• [09:46] – Meaning of the papacy’s power in the Renaissance
• [11:43] – Rules on celibacy vs. the reality of papal sex lives
• [14:36] – Borgia origins and family advancement
• [18:05] – Borgia’s mistresses and public acknowledgement of children
• [24:11] – Was being a pope’s mistress advantageous?
• [31:16] – Why scandal wasn’t always reported overtly
• [34:15] – Incest rumors and “The Banquet of Chestnuts” orgy
• [43:27] – Lucrezia as a political actor in the papal government
• [45:02] – Alexander’s death and aftermath
• [49:23] – Assessing Alexander VI as a pope beyond the scandal

Tone & Style

The episode is cheeky, fact-packed, and highly irreverent, mirroring Kate Lister’s trademark enthusiasm for the bawdier corners of history. Fletcher supplements with sharp scholarship and vivid detail, always with a dry wit and reluctance to paint history in prudish terms.

Conclusion

Kate and Catherine vividly unravel why Alexander VI remains infamous as the “naughtiest” pope – and why, beneath Italy’s Renaissance glamour, sex, power, and scandal often walked hand-in-hand at the heart of Christendom. The legacy of the Borgia Pope is both sordid and significant, a warning, perhaps, that even those who claim to serve the highest ideals are still, all too often, human.