Who Was The Witch Queen of Scotland?

Summary

Podcast Summary

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Episode: Who Was The Witch Queen of Scotland?
Host: Dr. Kate Lister
Guest: Mary Craig, historian and author of The Borders Witch Hunt and A History of Scottish Witches
Date: March 3, 2026

---

Overview

This riveting episode delves into the life and myth of Isabel Gowdy, a 17th-century Scottish woman whose lurid confessions of witchcraft made her infamous. Host Dr. Kate Lister is joined by historian Mary Craig to explore the social, political, and religious climate that led to Scotland’s intense witch hunts, with particular focus on the extraordinary, fairy-filled testimony of Gowdy—often dubbed "the Queen of the Witches."

---

Key Discussion Points

1. Setting the Scene: Scotland’s Witch Panic

• [01:42] Dr. Kate Lister introduces the infamous confession of Isabel Gowdy, made in 1662—a time of mass hysteria over witchcraft in Scotland.

• [02:26] Lister underscores Gowdy’s confession for its exceptional candor and erotic content, including vivid descriptions of sex with the devil:

  “She describes him lying as heavily as a sack of malt and says that she found his nature within me. Cold as spring well water.”
  (Dr. Kate Lister, 01:56)

• [06:56] Scotland’s witch trials were especially intense—10 times more executions per head than England. Political upheaval, abrupt religious changes, and the import of continental ideas all contributed to a unique Scottish fervor.

  “We appear to have persecuted, tried and executed 10 times more witches per head of population than England.”
  (Mary Craig, 07:07)

2. Historical and Political Backdrop

• [07:18–10:15] Mary Craig details the rapid shift from Catholicism to protestant Calvinism in Scotland versus gradual change in England, and references King James VI/I’s obsession with witchcraft.
• [10:15] James’s Daemonologie book is compared to Stephen Hawking’s A Brief History of Time—bought by many, read by few.
• [10:24] The “Malleus Maleficarum,” an earlier, notorious witch hunting manual, went viral thanks to the printing press, fueling paranoia.

3. Changing Definitions and Social Perceptions of “Witch”

• [12:10] Discussion on what was believed to make someone a witch—often healers or charmers who gained power from fairies, not necessarily the devil.

  "A witch would have been somebody who was a Christian...but tended to be a healer or a charmer, and they got their power from the fairies."
  (Mary Craig, 12:27)

• [14:28] Magic was part of everyday life, even among royalty (e.g., Elizabeth I's advisor John Dee).

4. Isabel Gowdy’s Life and Confessions

• [14:45] Little is known about Gowdy's personal life—her age, children, and reasons for arrest remain unknown.

• [16:53] Four confessions were extracted over six weeks, under severe psychological (if not physical) duress.

  "I maintain, being dragged from your house by the moral authority in your area...you're terrified. You're living in a world of sin. I think that's pretty close to psychological torture."
  (Mary Craig, 17:34)

• [18:12] The interrogation methods included invasive body searches for “devil’s marks,” which could involve public and intimate searches amounting to sexual assault.

5. Detailed Confessions and Their Peculiarity

• [26:13] Gowdy’s confessions included:

  • Renouncing baptism
  • Sex with the devil
  • Flying at night, leaving a broomstick decoy in her bed
  • Visiting fairyland, transforming into a hare
  • Elf-shot arrows, fairy feasts, and more

• [27:35] Most of her "offenses" revolved around dealings with fairies and fantasy rather than harming others—a notable divergence from typical witch trial confessions.

  “She doesn’t actually confess to much witchcraft, just hanging out with the fairies.”
  (Dr. Kate Lister, 27:35)

• [30:16] The limits of Gowdy's imagination highlight the era's deprivation:

  “To her, that was wealth, that was riches. Having enough food, riding on a horse—Isabel wouldn’t have ever ridden on a horse. She couldn’t afford to buy a horse.”
  (Mary Craig, 30:16)

6. Aftermath and Unsolved Mysteries

• [31:02] Gowdy’s ultimate fate is unknown; there are no surviving trial records.

  • She may have died before trial, been considered “addled in her wits,” or suffered an undocumented end.

  "She possibly died in her cell. I think she died before trial."
  (Mary Craig, 44:12)

7. Broader Witchcraft Context in Scotland

• [37:59] 84% of Scottish witch trials targeted women, especially those associated with healing or fairy magic.

• [39:55] Age profiles were broad, but most accused were middle-aged women. Occasional children and upper-class women were also accused.

• [40:26] Conviction usually resulted in public strangulation and burning of the body—a deterrent and a communal lesson.

  “You were usually worried to death, which was strangled and then your dead body burned...so there were no graves.”
  (Mary Craig, 40:26)

8. The Horror and Legacy of Witch Trials

• [42:11] The psychological trauma was generational, affecting not just victims but communities and children:

  “There is no way that child’s not going to have trauma...the local minister would say, oh, well, see, told you. Daughter of a witch, now she’s acting like a witch.”
  (Mary Craig, 42:11)

9. Gowdy’s Enduring Legacy

• [43:03] Her confessions were published in the 19th century by Pitcairn, captivating the Victorian imagination.
• [43:40] The sexual elements ("sex with the devil") continue to fascinate and provoke questions about the fixations of her interrogators.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We appear to have persecuted, tried and executed 10 times more witches per head of population than England.”
  (Mary Craig, 07:07)

• “It was almost as if you’d sort of flicked a switch. On Monday you’re Catholic and on Tuesday you’re Protestant.”
  (Mary Craig, 07:54)

• “Go big—go much bigger than that!...if the devil’s given you his power, why just make someone’s cow sick?”
  (Dr. Kate Lister, 29:08)

• “That really broke my heart...that’s the limits of her experience.”
  (Dr. Kate Lister, 30:05)

• “There is no way that child’s not going to have trauma.”
  (Mary Craig, 42:11)

• “Possibly she died in her cell. I think she died before trial.”
  (Mary Craig, 44:12)

---

Important Timestamps

• [01:42] Introduction to Isabel Gowdy and the content of her confessions
• [06:56–08:15] Witch trial intensity in Scotland and causes
• [10:15–11:17] Influence of James VI/I and “viral” books on witch hunting
• [12:10–14:28] Definitions of “witch” and fairy beliefs
• [16:53–19:39] Psychological aspects of interrogation and the “devil’s mark”
• [26:13–27:35] Main points of Gowdy’s confessions
• [30:05–30:42] Socioeconomic realities reflected in confessions
• [31:02–32:00] The unknown fate of Isabel Gowdy
• [37:59–40:19] Gender and age breakdowns in Scottish witch trials
• [40:26–42:27] Execution methods and generational trauma
• [43:03–43:55] Publication and Victorian reinterpretation of Gowdy’s story
• [44:12–44:48] Craig’s theory on Gowdy’s death in prison

---

Closing Thoughts

Mary Craig and Dr. Kate Lister paint a haunting picture of paranoia, deprivation, and cruelty, but also of the strange and fascinating worldviews of 17th-century Scotland. The mystery surrounding Isabel Gowdy’s end, and the weird, vivid richness of her confessions, anchor this exploration of witchcraft’s place in collective memory and its lingering resonance in society and culture today.

---

Further Readings/Follow-Up:

• Find more from Mary Craig at marywcraig.com
• Look out for her book, A History of Scottish Witches (March 2027)

---

For fans of scandalous, surprising history, future Betwixt The Sheets episodes will continue exploring sex and scandal through the ages—including a new miniseries on Hollywood’s golden age.

Transcript

[A]

Over 90 of the top 100 US accounting firms trust Bill to handle bill pay processes. Why? Because our tools are built on over a trillion dollars of secure payments. We're not just moving money, we're powering financial workflows for half a million customers. That's a level of expertise you just can't fake. Ready to talk with an expert? Visit bill.comproven to get started and grab a $250 gift card as a thank you. Terms and conditions apply. See Offer page for details.

[B]

Early Birds Always rise to the occasion for summer vacation planning because early gets you closer to the action. So don't be late. Book your next vacation early on VRBO and save over $120. Rise and shine. Average savings $141 select homes only

[A]

when the flu is keeping you up at night, don't try to tough it out. Knock out your flu symptoms with NYQUIL Intense Flu. You got this. It provides powerful relief of your flu symptoms so you can sleep well through the night. NYQUIL Intense Flu the nighttime Sniffling, aching, aching fever. Best sleep with a flu medicine. Use as directed. Keep out of reach of children.

[B]

Hello my lovely Betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. Welcome back to Betwixter Sheets. Thank you for coming back once again. I'm so glad that you're here, mostly because if you weren't here, then it's just me, isn't it? It's just me talking to myself. So thank God you are here with your ear are listening to this. But before you can go any further I do have to tell you and I'm sure you know what I'm going to tell you, but here it is anyway. This is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adultery things in an adulty way, covering a range of subjects. And you should be an adult too, right?

[C]

On with the show.

[B]

You are joining me in the Highlands of Scotland in spring 1662 and something peculiar is a foot. A local woman from a small town, Isabelle Gowdy, is giving what will become known as one of the most dark, detailed and scandalous confessions of witchcraft in European history. And that is up against some pretty stiff competition, I can tell you. Her confession is detailed and lurid and there is a lot of sexual information in there as well, including descriptions of how she had sex with the devil. She describes him lying as heavily as a sack of malt and says that she found his nature within me. Cold as spring well water.

[C]

Crikey, Isabelle.

[B]

Obviously these words are being spoken under duress, but even so, she is really going for it. So who was Isabel Gowdy? What led her to this place and what happened to her next? Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, with me, Kate Lister. Isabel Gowdy's four confessions over six weeks came at the height of Scotland's panic about witchcraft and they were terrified of them. An estimated 206 people were accused between April and December in 1661 alone. And even amongst all of them, Isabelle's confession really stands out. So what do we know about her and what on earth was going on in Scotland at the time to create such a panic? Well, joining me today is Mary Craig, historian and author of books including the Borders Witch Hunt and A History of Scottish Witches. So if anyone can help us, I think it's her. And whilst I'm here, I wanted to let you know again about the two Betwixt the Sheets live shows that are happening in May. One in Edinburgh and the other one in London Town. Tickets are available at fane.co.uk. just search for betwixt the sheets and we will see you there. Right, let's crack on with it. Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Mary Craig. How are you doing?

[C]

I'm very well, Frankie, how are you?

[B]

Oh, I'm thrilled because we're talking witches. It's a gruesome subject, but I'm endlessly fascinated by it.

[C]

Absolutely. And there's always more to learn. The more I read the trial records, there's more things come out and. Yeah, there's just so much in there.

[B]

And you're a historian of witchcraft?

[C]

Well, yeah. And the thing is that, I mean, I grew up watching the old Hammer horror movies. That dates me a little bit, doesn't it? Yeah, but the thing is that you don't need all of that extra. There's enough in the reality without you having to add any extras. It's just amazing what was said, what was thought, what was done. So, yeah, great to chat to somebody else about my witches.

[B]

I don't think we'll ever fully understand what really happened. Like, we can get as much detail and information as possible, but the answer as to why, over the course of about a hundred years, roughly like one long lifetime, Europe just erupted in this witch hunting craze. It's so bizarre.

[C]

Yeah. To me, that's always the interesting question in history as to why, you know, the how and the when and the who and whatever. But why? Why does one person do this and another person faced with the same set of circumstances reacts completely differently. That's what's fascinating. And why, as you say, collectively over that sort of late 16th, right through the 17th century, which is the early modern period, you know, we're about to go into things like the Enlightenment, that we have this throwback to the devil and sin and witches and magic. It's just fascinating to me. Yeah.

[B]

And we're here to talk about one witch in particular who, I confess I didn't know very much about, Isabel Gowdy.

[C]

Isabel Gowdy, the Queen of the witches.

[B]

The queen of the witches.

[C]

She is known. Yes, yes. She gives the most bizarre confessions, really. And unfortunately, because people don't take care when thinking about what they're reading, it has given rise to so many crazy theories about what witches did and didn't do. And there would be a coven of 13 and they would dance naked in the woods. I think that certain gentlemen would like that to be true, but never mind. But, yes, a lot of what Isabel Gowdy talked about was very strange, but as I say, you have to be really careful trying to interpret what she meant. I mean, of course, what was written down may not necessarily be what she said and how do we interpret it all these years on? But, yeah, Isabel's an amazing case.

[B]

She's a Scottish witch, and witch trials exploded all over the place, but Scotland seems to have been a particular hotspot for them. Is that right or have I got that wrong?

[C]

Absolutely. We appear to have persecuted, tried and executed 10 times more witches per head of population than England.

[B]

That's a lot, isn't it?

[C]

I think there are a variety of reasons, but I think one of the reasons was that the Reformation happened almost gradually in England. We know, you know, Henry VIII wanted a son, you know, when he. He falls out, so he divorces himself from. From Rome. So the Reformation in England happens quite gradually, whereas in Scotland it's quite sudden. And also, the form of Protestantism that we went for was a very strict Calvinist form of Protestantism. It was almost as if you'd sort of flicked a switch. You know, on Monday you're Catholic and on Tuesday you're Protestant. There was, you know, there was no.

[B]

That's quite jarring, isn't it?

[C]

Yeah, there was quite jarring. And then, of course, the King leaves the country, so that leaves a power vacuum. The Church isn't sure where it's going. And all of these factors combine to make it a bit of a hot spot. Yeah.

[B]

And of course, James, James the 6th of Scotland, 1st of England, he had a real thing about witches, didn't he?

[C]

Well, it's really interesting. He was supposed to marry Anne of Denmark. And Anne of Denmark sets off from Denmark and her ships found her in a storm and they have to sort of seek shelter. And an argument happens between a chap called Monk and a chap called Volkendorf in the Danish court as to whose fault it was because everybody was laughing about the fact that, you know, they're, they're Denmark, they're a sailing nation and they couldn't get their ships right. So these two men are arguing. One of them was the Admiral of the fleet and the other was, I think, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. And then conveniently they both looked at each other and said, oh, there's that woman called Ann Coldings that's in jail for being a witch. Let's say the storms were because of her and her witches. So that lets the two guys off the hook. So witchcraft trial takes off in Denmark. Now James at this point knows Elizabeth I of England is going to die and he'll get the English throne. He knows that most of England don't want a Scotch king. He's from a small, insignificant, poor little country, so he has to prove himself to be the equal of everybody else. If the devil's going to attack godly people, he's going to use witches. And if Denmark's having witches, then James is having witches. So James kicks off the witchcraft trials in north Berwick where 100 people get arrested. And then of course he brings that down to England and the English take one look at him and think, maybe not. So he had a little bit more sense down there than we did up here. But of course, because the king had. And of course he writes his big boys book of witches, his demonology, and everybody bought the big boys book of witches. I always think it was like, remember the chapter Stephen Hawking and he wrote that book, A Brief History of Time?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And we all went out and bought it. We didn't read it, but we bought it to show off.

[B]

That's true, that's true.

[C]

I think the king's book and demonology was a bit the same. The king had written this book, so everybody said, oh, well, you know, it must be great. So all of these factors come together.

[B]

You can see why, like if the king of Scotland is doing this and he got personally involved in the witch trials as well, that you could see why that had spread.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And of course you also had. There was a book written previously by chap called Kramer called the Malleus Maleficarum, the Hammer of the Witches, which is the craziest book going. It's actually quite good for a giggle, that book. It was so bonkers that the. The Catholic Church denounced the book and him. But it got written at the time of the spread of the printing press, so it went viral the way something crazy on the Internet can go viral today. So, you know, you've got the crazy book going viral, you've got the King writing a book. There were storms that did affect Anne coming over from Denmark. You've got all these factors coming together. You've got politics, you've got people who genuinely were religious. You know, people did believe in God and the devil. And then there's a bit of famine and a bit of pestilence and a bit of war and a bit of politics. So you can see how that's it. Maybe the devil's out there to get us all. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, you sort of look around at the moment, don't you, and how fractious everything is, how paranoid and how reactionary everybody is. And I do kind of wonder if there was the option to go, they're a witch, let's burn them. How far we are away from all of this today, actually?

[C]

Well, I have heard a few politicians recently who have been called to book about certain things and they'll use the phrase witch hunt.

[B]

Witch hunt, yeah.

[C]

Rather than say my opposition, you know, whatever it is, you know, I've done a policy on A or B and I'm being called to account for that policy. And no claim is witchcraft. You know what I mean? There are people being executed as witches today around the world.

[B]

Yes, there are.

[C]

Unfortunately, there are large numbers of people being executed as witches around the world. So it is. We don't tend to have it in Europe, but the phenomenon has not gone away. One of the biggest problems to see, of course, is the fact that what do we mean by the word witch? Was Isabel Gaudi a witch?

[B]

Yeah. What exactly does that mean? It's something that historians of witchcraft have, like, tried to get to grips with. What's your definition of a witch for the research that you do? I suppose for early modern Scotland and wider Europe, what was their understanding of a witch?

[C]

A witch would have been somebody who was a Christian, did believe in God, but tended to be a healer or a charmer, and they got their power from the fairies.

[B]

Not the devil?

[C]

No, not the devil. That would have been a witch's definition of what a witch was and was probably the community's definition of A witch. For the Kirk, they had a problem with fairies. And so as far as they were concerned, power was unnatural to women. So women who had power must have had it from an unnatural source. So they take the fairies out and say that you've got the power from the devil, therefore you are an enemy of gold.

[B]

I haven't heard the fairies before. Is that uniquely Scottish? I mean, I know that people believed in fairies, but is that a uniquely Scottish thing, that the fairies are like a conduit to the devil in these trials?

[C]

Oh, you see, as far as a witch was concerned, the fairies had nothing to do with the devil at all.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

The trouble is that the Kirk of Scotland couldn't quite decide what fairies were. So some of them, they didn't have an official line on it, which made it quite confusing because everybody knew the fairies existed. Everybody believed in fairies. Glenshee is the glen of the fairies. Shahalian is the fairy mountain. You know, if places are named after the fairies, of course they exist. You know, that explains phenomena that the Kirk could not explain. So you would go to the local fairy fort, a ring of mushrooms or something like that, where, you know, the fairies are, and you might say a prayer or say a chant to the fairies. And if you were very, very lucky, the fairies would give you power, usually to women, and it usually was handed down, or you might have second sight, and that would allow you to heal your neighbor's baby if they weren't well, or help somebody whose chickens had stopped laying. It was a benevolent force. And the belief in magic was ubiquitous. I mean, Elizabeth, I had John Dee. John Dee was a necromancer and a conjurer, and he was her advisor at court.

[B]

He was an astrologer.

[C]

Yes, he was an astrologer. Magic was ubiquitous. It was starting to fade as the Kirk and the churches become more established and they start to take power back because they're saying there is God and the angels and there's devil and his imps. Fairies. We're not quite sure.

[B]

Let's talk about Isabel Gowdy, because I don't think that we know very much about her life. But what's your research turned up?

[C]

We really don't know much about her at all. We know that she's married to a chap called John Gilbert. We don't know if she has any children. We don't know how old she is. She couldn't have been any younger than in her 30s, but she could have been as old as in her 60s. We don't know why she's first arrested. We know she gives four confessions. Well, three confessions. And then the fourth one is a sort of reiteration of the three that she gives. She seems to have had a falling out with the local minister, which. Well, you know, ministers are what ministers are. And he appears to have been quite a sort of vehement, witch hunter type guy. So I don't know if that was coming from.

[B]

He's always one of them.

[C]

Was always one of them, yeah. So I don't know if Harry Forbes was particularly. I think what's happened is he seems to have been quite extreme. He's been an extreme Calvinist. And the trouble is that the Kirk of Scotland hadn't settled into its Presbyterian format, which is why we had the Bishops War, which led to the English Civil War, which led to the War of the Three Kingdoms. We know all that. So Charles II is back on the throne in 1660 and one of the first things he does is he reintroduces Episcopalianism into the Scottish Kirk, which is anathema to the Presbyterian Calvinists. Well, you can't blame the King because the last time we did that, we chopped the King's head off. We don't want to go down that road again. So the only person that can be responsible is the devil and it must be witches, which is why in 1662 we get huge numbers of accusations.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So that's the sort of background everybody's getting really worried about, the devil. And, you know, you've got this Minister Forbes, who's quite strong in witches and witchcraft and sin and the devil and all these sorts of things. And Isabel might simply have gone down the road one day and said, oh, isn't the minister a bit awful or something? And somebody's overheard that, as simple as that. And she gets dragged in.

[B]

Do we know what date this was?

[C]

This was in April 1662.

[B]

Right. Like, right bang in the middle of this quite paranoid fever, then.

[C]

And she is interviewed, she's interrogated, sorry, four times in the space of six weeks. Now, 1662, really important, because at that time, the Privy Council in Scotland banned the use of torture unless you had a really good reason for doing it, whereas previously people were tortured. And this is why a lot of people look at Isabel's confessions and say, well, she wasn't even being tortured. Why would she see all this? I maintain, being dragged from your house by the moral authority in your area, the minister being thrown into a cold, dark cell, being kept in isolation. You're frightened. You know what happens to witches you're terrified. You're living in a world of sin. I think that's pretty close to psychological torture.

[B]

Oh, I agree completely.

[C]

And then the interrogation isn't like today, you know, when you watch the true crime things and you see the policeman and, well, you know, we're going to Vitti. There would have been three or four men crowding into her personal space, screaming at her, you are going to hellfire. Your immortal soul is in danger day after day after day until she starts to confess, because we don't know how long she had been in prison before she gives her first confession.

[B]

Wow. Were they. Would they be searching for witches marks and things like that as well?

[C]

Yes, because one of the four proofs under Scott's law was the devil's mark, where the devil had marked you. So they would look for torture.

[B]

That's torture as well. I would have said that because. Could you just explain a little bit about what that would involve?

[C]

Well, again, if you think about it, if you are a woman in 1662, the only person that can physically touch you is your husband. So men are physically touching you. Men are physically taking the much cap, your little cap off your head and they're putting their hands on you. They're maybe even razoring off your hair, cutting off your hair so they can look on your scalp. They'll loosen your clothing to look at the skin around your neck and your shoulders because that's where it was thought the devil would touch you. That's a massive, massive thing for men that are not your husband to be touching you in any way at all without this. And other men are looking because they're all searching and they're looking at your body to see if you have a mark on you.

[B]

And they'd be looking in your privity. Places that's often recorded in the witchcraft trials is they're looking in your. Looking at all over your body.

[C]

They would look all over your body in Scotland. It tended to be more your head and your shoulders because that's where it was thought your devil would. But yes, they would. If they were going searching, they were going searching. This didn't happen in Isabel's case, but in some cases he would bring in professional witch prickers or witch broaders.

[B]

And what would they do?

[C]

And they would look for the devil's mark because it was assumed that if the devil had touched you'd marked you because he was unnatural, the mark would be unnatural. And if you pricked it with say a bodkin, say. Yeah, but that big of a bodkin and you print it. It wouldn't bleed or you wouldn't feel pain. Now, obviously, we know about acupuncture that are points to the body where you can do this, but they might just keep on going. You might call out the first time, well, that wasn't the devil's mark. They keep on going and keep on going and keep on going until they find a point where you don't cry out. And that was the devil's mark.

[B]

That's torture, isn't it? That's. There's no. I know that. It doesn't. Officially. It's not officially torture.

[C]

Again, what we're saying about the meanings of words to you and I, that's torture. That's not officially torture. That's just looking for the devil's mark. And of course, Isabel says that she's renounced her baptism. She says that she's been baptized by the devil, that the devil has marked her. But again, because the ministers are fighting against the devil, these are the questions you're going to ask. You're not going to go in and say, hello, Isabel, how are you? Sit down, have a cup of tea, tell us all about it. Did you happen to meet the devil? No. They're coming in saying, we know you're a witch. We know you met the devil. Tell us everything that happened when you met the devil. These are, you know, leading questions.

[B]

I'll be back with Mary and Isabelle after this short break. Betwixt us, I have seen the figures and I know what you like. I'm sure that many of you have already been watching season four of Bridgeton, the period drama from Netflix. And if you are, then you should also be listening to their companion show, Bridgerton the Official Podcast. In each episode, beloved television presenter Alison Hammond from the Great British Bake off welcomes cast members and creative voices from the show onto her couch. Alison asks all of our burning questions, dishing the dirty about the spicy romances and the sumptuous scandalous world of Bridgerton's new series. For instance, what did the cast members really think about that staircase scene? To listen, search for Bridgerton the Official Podcast in your podcast app. Watch video episodes on Netflix. That's Bridgerton the Official Podcast. We need to have a talk. I think we're going through a rough patch. No, no, I don't mean you and me. I mean globally. It's totally acceptable to need some help, and I know where you can find it. Ruler. Finding a therapist is hard enough, but one who takes your insurance? That's where most Online therapy providers fall short. Many don't work with insurance at all, leaving you stuck paying the full cost out of pocket or paying for an expensive monthly subscription. Think about it. You use your insurance benefits to maintain your physical health, so why shouldn't you do the same for your mental health? Ruler partners with over 100 insurance plans, making the average CO pay just $15 per session. That's real therapy from licensed professionals at a price that actually makes sense. And Ruler isn't just affordable, the experience is tailored around you. Other online therapy platforms might match you with the first available provider. Whether or not they're the right fit. Ruler considers your goals, preferences and background to provide you with a curated list of licensed in network therapists who are actually aligned with what you need because they know that finding the right therapist can make all the difference. No wait lists, no frustrating back and forth. Rula makes it easy to find a mental health provider who is accepting new patients and appointments are available as soon as tomorrow. Plus, Ruler sticks with you throughout your journey, checking in to make sure that your care is helping you move forward. Thousands of people are already using Ruler to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by Insurance. Visit ruler.com sheets to get started. After you sign up, you'll be asked how you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know that we sent you that's R U L A dot com sheets. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget. We all prefer things a certain way, like groceries. If you want groceries just how you like them, you gotta try Instacart. They have a new preference picker that lets you pick how ripe or unripe you want your bananas. Shoppers can see your preferences upfront, helping guide their choices. Because when it comes to groceries, the details matter. Instacart get groceries just how you like

[A]

over 90 of the top 100 US accounting firms trust Bill to handle bill pay processes. Why? Because our tools are built on over a trillion dollars of secure payments. We're not just moving money, we're powering financial workflows for half a million customers. That's a level of expertise you just can't fake. Ready to talk with an expert? Visit bill.comproven to get started and grab a $250 gift card as a thank you. Terms and conditions apply. See Offer page for detail.

[B]

Today there's like quite strict guidelines and guidance about interrogating witnesses, but people still give false confessions even under those circumstances. It's very easy if you've got someone who's vulnerable to manipulate them and force them into it. And. And this is in a. A dungeon and she's on her own and she's frightened. And like, what chance did any of them stand?

[C]

Exactly? I mean, she could have been. If she was an older lady, she might have had arthritis or something like that. You know, who knows if she's in pain, she's certainly frightened. She's cold, she's lonely. She knows that she's facing a potential death sentence and there are four grown men shouting at her, screaming in her face, and telling her that her immortal soul is going to hellfire and damnation. That's terrifying. And they're touching her, they're pulling her clothing apart. They're demanding to know things from her.

[B]

What does she confess to? Because this is the reason that she's become as famous as she is, isn't it? Is because of the detailed confessions.

[C]

Yeah. So she confesses to having renounced her baptism. Now that's a very common one. You'll see that in a lot of trial records because they'll say to you, did you renounce your baptism? She confesses to the devil having marked her. She confesses to having had sex with the devil. And she describes him in pretty graphic detail as to the sex, which is fair enough. She says that she goes out flying at night and she takes her broomstick and puts it in the bed beside her husband so her husband doesn't know she's out and about. She goes flying through the air on horses and then goes to houses for great meals. She meets the queen of the fairies. The devil makes her elf shot arrows, which is a confusion because elf shot arrows were little arrows that came from fairy land. So she's confused that with the devil. And if she shoots somebody, often if people, if their cattle were ill, they would say they'd been elf shot, they'd been attacked by the fairies. She says that she can turn into a hare and she can run away from people and she would run into people's houses as a hare and she would escape and then eventually she'd run into a house. She would be being chased by dogs, and eventually she would be so far ahead of the dogs that she would say a chant and that would turn her back into a person. She talks about seeing the king of the fairies and the queen of the fairies and all this wondrous food that she eats and visiting fairyland. She doesn't actually confess to much witchcraft,

[B]

just hanging out with the fairies.

[C]

Yeah, because most witchcraft trials are things like, I tried to lame my neighbor's horse, or I laid sickness on a child, or I made them fall over and break their leg. There's very little of that there. It's all about the fairyland and all about the devil. And it's. It's actually quite a confused confession. And I'm wondering if she was what was known in the time as adult in her wits. I'm wondering if this is a frightening old lady who might have had early stage dementia, who's just telling them what they want to hear so they'll stop shouting at her. I don't know.

[B]

How long is the confession. How much of this material is there?

[C]

There are four confessions and there is quite a bit of material there. But as I say, the fourth confession is just really a repetition of the first three. And there are things like, there are chants, I will go into a hare with such sorrow and such care, I will go into a hair. So there are spells and chatter, spells and chants. Or are they just rhymes that she's made up? Who knows? Actually, in this, in these confessions, did

[B]

they not wonder, if she can turn herself into a hare, why hasn't she done that to get out of this prison?

[C]

Exactly. This is the problem.

[B]

There we are.

[C]

This is the problem with witchcraft is that if witches are so powerful and they can do these things, why do they get caught? And why can they not help themselves escape? And why doesn't the devil come and get them? These questions are never answered by the kirk. These are glossed over also.

[B]

If you are a witch and Satan himself has come along and given you his power, why do people confess to such menial things as, oh, I made someone's cow sick. Oh, I made somebody a bit lame for it. You've got like, that's such low level stuff. Go, go big. Go much bigger than that.

[C]

I know, it's crazy. I mean, if you think about it, if one of these things is, they'll say, why, why would you be a witch? Why would be the richest person you could be? You know, I'd be like winning the lottery, going on a cruise and buying cars and, you know, whereas they'll talk about having enough to eat. And the thing is that most people lived on the edge in the 17th century. Even if you had a bit of money, all it took was one bad winter, one bad harvest and you could starve to death. You could freeze to death in a Scottish winter. So going to the Queen of the fairies and having a great feast of was as far as Isabel's imagination would allow her to go.

[B]

Oh, oh, that's so sad because, you know, she's living. That really broke my heart. It's like that's the limits of her experience.

[C]

She didn't, you know, to her, that was wealth, that was riches. Having enough food, riding on a horse. Isabel wouldn't have ever ridden on a horse. She couldn't afford to buy a horse.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

You know, and she's. She's this poor little old lady, and I think she's just bamboozled and scared just saying anything and just saying anything. We've all done it. We've all said things to people to make them go away and leave us alone, haven't we?

[B]

I. I would have cracked long before this, quite frankly. I would have been like, just write whatever you want. Yeah, fine, I've been meeting with the fairies. But the really scary thing, I mean, the whole thing is awful. Isabella clearly couldn't possibly have done any of these things. But there is an impact from this, isn't there? What's the fallout from these confessions?

[C]

Well, interestingly, we don't know. She doesn't go to trial or does she? We're not sure. So they collect all of this information and it goes up to the privy council. And they say, right, here's all our evidence. And so you would expect to go, the privy council looks at it, and we've got the privy council records and they've recorded the fact we've got all this evidence. So of course, everybody like me sits there going, right, and where's the trial record? And it's not there. There's nothing.

[B]

Nothing.

[C]

So choices. They realized she was addled in her wits and therefore could not stand trial because under Scott's law at that time,

[B]

that could have happened.

[C]

But if that was true, you'd expect her to be something somewhere written down, or maybe that just didn't get written down, or maybe it's got lost along the way. Maybe the trial records have disappeared or. I don't know. I honestly don't know because there is no trial record. So I have no idea what happened to her.

[B]

Could she have died before it went to trial?

[C]

Very possibly. And a lot of people did. The numbers for those in Scotland, just under 4,000 people that we have names. Well, we have note of is just under 4,000. But with the number of people who possibly died in prison and the number of records that have probably been gone over the years, the number's probably closer to 6,000, which would be the equivalent of about 36,000 people today in Scotland.

[B]

God almighty.

[C]

So the fact that she didn't go to trial if she's old. I mean, it might well be that the Privy Council have sent a record back and saying, yes, you can take her to trial. And then somebody's thought, actually she's just addled in her wits if we take her to trial and somebody comes along and does a little bit of a check. Because again, the problem going back to the episcopy was that Charles had not only brought episcopacy back, he'd said that anybody who did not adhere to it would lose their positions. So there's a lot of ministers, magistrates, judges, lawyers are looking at the political things here, there and everywhere. So the batty old lady that gave that confession, or do we really want to bring her to trial? What if somebody spots it and it's not quite right, let's just let her go and do nothing about it. Is another possibility in the lead up to the trial.

[B]

Like, what was the state of the witch trials in Scotland at that time? Because I know in England and in other places there's a big like, yeah, let's get the witches. And then doubts start to creep in. Things like in Essex, for example, when they realized Matthew Hopkins was just out for as much money as he wants to. And then people start to get a bit nervous about it. When Isabel Gowdy was given these confessions, were they still gung ho for it or was there some, like, caution creeping in?

[C]

Well, no, actually, the 61, 62 witch panic that we had in Scotland was the worst one we had.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I mean, there were people being executed all over the place for things that they could not have done. And we do have records of. I think there's a lady in Leith who actually, the family got a document from a doctor to say she was addled in her wits and couldn't be taken to trial. And the minister just browbeat the court into taking her to trial anyway. So it was a period where people were being taken to trial. So it's really interesting that Isabel didn't go. And it might just be something as simple as the fact that the records have been lost along the way. Frustratingly, it might be just that.

[B]

Did she have to name people? Because that's quite common in the confessions.

[C]

Yes, she names Janet Bradle Bean, Margaret Brody. She named quite a few people. So again, it's this naming people, because I'm always surprised when I read the witchcraft trials of those who didn't confess, of those who didn't name somebody else, even after torture, because like you, I'd have been Confessing within two minutes, my sister, my. My cousins, everybody would be getting named. Yes, and again, but we don't have trial records for anybody that she names either.

[B]

Oh, okay. So we don't know what happened to those people.

[C]

If she was addled in her witch, you see, then that would mean all of her testimony was suspect and would all have to be thrown out.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So we don't know. And we don't know about this minister, you see. Again, it could be a situation where if he has been a fervent Calvinist Presbyterian and then he refuses to adhere to episcopacy, he might well have lost his position. So it might be a case of, you know, just at the end of Isabel's confessions, they send off to the privy council say, right, we're going to go to trial. The privy council say, right, fine. And he actually loses his job. And all of a sudden, the driving force behind what could have been Isabel's trial is no longer there.

[B]

Wow. Yeah, that makes sense.

[C]

We don't know because he seems to fade out of history as well. We don't really have a lot of note of him after that.

[B]

I'll be back with Mary and Isabelle after this short break. We all prefer things a certain way. Like groceries. If you want groceries just how you like them, you gotta try Instacart. They have a new preference picker that lets you pick how ripe or unripe you want your bananas. Shoppers can see your preferences upfront, helping guide their choices. Because when it comes to groceries, the details matter. Instacart get groceries just how you like.

[A]

When it comes to managing money, forget the hype and look at the results. Bill has a trillion dollars of secure payments powering our bill pay tools. Instead of just moving money, Bill is powering the financial operations of nearly half a million customers. So stop the guesswork and start scaling with the proven choice. Ready to talk with an expert, visit bill.comproven to get started and grab a $250 gift card as a thank you. Terms and conditions apply. See offer page for details.

[B]

We've just got back from Iceland, where we filmed the documentary on the witch trials there. Because 93% of the people that they executed there were men, which is quite a startling statistic. And the reason that scholars believe this has happened is because in Iceland, it was men that were more associated with magic than women were, because it was about runes and about learning, and that was considered a masculine thing. In Scotland, was it women that were more associated with magic? Was there a profile of the people that they were persecuting there, about 84%

[C]

of those that we know of were women.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So it was much more female crime with fairy magic. It tended to be more women that had fairy magic and that would be healing powers, charming powers. There were men, especially up in the Gaeltach, and men would have second sight. Interestingly, up in the Gaeltach in Scotland, far, far fewer trials. The witchcraft trials that took place in Scotland were a Lowland phenomenon, not up in the Gaeltach, where a lot of the clans had remained Catholic. And the belief in fairies and magic was a lot stronger.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it was just a case of, of course, the witch went to see the fairies. Well, what's the problem with that? There was no association with the devil because you didn't have kirk ministers. You didn't have enough kirk ministers to cover the whole of Scotland to start with. And you certainly didn't have kirk ministers who were up in the Highland glens. So instead of having a kirk minister telling you that the fairies were part of the devil and the devil's out to get you, and, you know, this is what you should be doing, everybody just kept on going the way they'd been going on for centuries, and they didn't really bother as much. I mean, there were trials in McGaeltach, but nothing like there were in lowland Scotland.

[B]

So it's mostly women. And is there an age profile? Do they tend to be older in Scotland? I think that they're older in England when they. They break out.

[C]

No, I mean, it tends to be quite a spread. I mean, we have. Shouldn't have. But we do have the note of youngsters as young as 8 and 10 being arrested for being witches, which is ridiculous. The reason we know that is that because the two individuals involved were both arrested when they were in their early 30s and it was said that they had been arrested previously. So that's how we can go back and go, oh, yeah. So they were 8 and 10. Yay. Well done. So the age range is probably a bit of a spread. Mostly actually middle aged women.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And again, not all of them were poor. Not all of them were. Again, a lot of them were what we would call middling sort. There were those that were very poor and poor and the middling sort. There were even a few ladies, as in Lady Manderston, a few others like that that were arrested for witchcraft. They tended to get acquitted, and that was rare, but they tended to get an acquittal at trial.

[B]

And if you didn't manage to get an Acquittal. And if you were found guilty, what would be your fate then?

[C]

It's Jess, you were usually worried to death, which was strangled and then your dead body burned. And that was publicly done so that everybody could come and see that the devil was a prince of liars. Look, he didn't save his witch. This is why you shouldn't do it. You know, first of all, we've caught her, the bad person is dying. But also, look, the devil did not come to save her.

[B]

They'd be strangled first. That was the usual.

[C]

Yes, mostly strangled first here in Scotland. And then the dead bodies burned. Yeah. And then again the dead bodies would be burnt to nothing. So there was nothing left. So there were no graves or whatever. And it takes a long time to actually burn a human body. And it takes a long time to burn a human body in the open air. So if that's in the marketplace, you're walking past that for days and children will be walking past that.

[B]

I often think about that. It's so grisly that you can't really get your head around it of, like, what that spectacle must have been, like, how long that would take to happen. And of course, they might have known who this woman was. They might have been somebody that they

[C]

knew from years that could have been your mother, could have been your mother or your grandmother. I mean, the generational trait, if you think about it, if you take a child of five or six years old and you're living in a society where men are men and women are women, and then all of a sudden men who aren't your daddy drag your mummy away and they all tell you that your mummy's wicked. And then the next time you see your mummy, she's had her head shaved, she's covered in bruises, she's in a hair shift, she's in the town square, she's being strangled by the local blacksmith because you might not have an executioner in your town, then she's tied to a stake and she's burned. And you have to watch that as a five year old. There is no way that child's not going to have trauma.

[B]

No.

[C]

By the time that child's 15 or 16, I would suspect that that child would act out that trauma in the way that you and I might recognize today. And the local minister would say, oh, well, see, told you. Daughter of a witch. Now she's acting like a witch.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

And so you get that generational trauma because it's not a one off. The Witchcraft act comes in in 1563 and is not repealed until 1736 in Scotland. So you might see your mother, your grandmother, you know all these stories. And if you don't know, if it's not your mother, you'll know somebody who it was. This is small town Scotland as well. We're a country of small towns. We're not like England with big cities. We're a small town country. Everybody knows everybody. You're living in communities of maybe only 5 or 6,000. You would know who the local witch was.

[B]

When were Isabel's Confessions published?

[C]

They were published by Pitcairn in the 19th century. Pitcairn was a chap who collected a lot of various Scottish trials. He was a lawyer himself, and he published them in the 19th century. And everybody sort of went, oh, okay, that's interesting. Simply because there is all this stuff about fairies and magic and flying and. And hairs and chants and charms and everything. So it really took off. And there's talk about witches and 13 witches being in a coven and dancing naked and having sex with the devil. I mean, it's Hammer Horror's dream of a story.

[B]

Always having sex with the devil. That comes up again and again and again.

[C]

You do wonder about the interrogators as

[B]

to exactly what the motivation about the interrogators? I absolutely wonder about the interrogators.

[C]

Yeah. There's a little bit of. There's a little bit of too much focus on that from my perspective. But, you know, you do wonder about it. Yeah.

[B]

As a final question, then, what's your guess as to what happened to Isabelle? I mean, you've sort of given us the scenarios, but what's your hunch?

[C]

I think she possibly died in her cell. I think she died before trial.

[B]

Yeah, I think that would make sense.

[C]

I think she's been an older lady. And of course, remember, nobody's feeding her when she's in. I mean, she's in there for six weeks. Well, why would you feed a witch? I mean, you barely feed your prisoners anyway. So it literally was bread and water if you were lucky. She's lying in a cell where she's having to go to the toilet in the corner. She's on stinking straw with rats and cockroaches. She's an older lady. I think she possibly just died in the cell.

[B]

That would make sense.

[C]

And they've just got rid of her, got rid of the body. And we do have notes of that. There's a case I know of in the Borders where an old lady died and they just dumped her body and used her clothes as washing rags. Oh, and the thing is that that old lady in the borders is thought of as a witch. She never went to trial. Isabel Goudie is named as Queen of the Witches. She didn't go to trial. We have no idea she did not. As far as we know, there is no trial. You know, it's not as if there's a trial that says she was innocent or guilty.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

There are no trial records for her. There's nothing.

[B]

Oh Mary, you have been wonderful to talk to. Thank you so much for sharing this horrendous but fascinating history. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

[C]

They can find [e-mail] or I've got a little book coming out next March which is called A History of Scottish Witches. So that's not exactly pleasant reading, but hopefully interesting reading.

[B]

I bet it will be. Thank you so much. You've been marvelous.

[C]

You're welcome. Thanks very much. And thanks for having me on the podcast and I'll come along and talk about other bits and bobs anytime you want.

[B]

Amazing. Thank you for listening. Thank you so much to Mary for joining me. And if you like what you heard, nerd, don't forget to like, review and follow along whatever it is you get. Your podcasts Coming up We've got Sex and Scandal in Hollywood's Golden Age, the first in a new miniseries where we will be exploring this era. And if you want us to explore a subject or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email [e-mail] this podcast was edited by Hannah Theodorov and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Freddie Chick. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets the History of Sex Scanlon Society A podcast where history hit this podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

[A]

Over 90 of the top 100 US accounting firms trust Bill to handle bill pay processes. Why? Because our tools are built on over a trillion dollars of secure payments. We're not just moving money, we're powering financial workflows for half a million customers. That's a level of expertise you just can't fake. Ready to talk with an expert? Visit bill.comproven to get started and grab a $250 gift card as a thank you. Terms and conditions apply. See Offer page for details.

[B]

Early Birds Always rise to the occasion for summer vacation planning because early gets you closer to the action. So don't be late. Book your next vacation early on VRBO and save over $120. Rise and shine. Average savings $141 select homes only.