Why Are We Scared Of Single Women?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Why Are We Scared Of Single Women?"

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Host: Kate Lister | Guest: Caroline Young
Date: September 23, 2025

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Overview

In this engaging episode, sex historian Kate Lister welcomes author Caroline Young to discuss the persistent fear and negative stereotypes around single women throughout history and popular culture. The conversation delves into Caroline Young's latest book, Single and Psycho: How Pop Culture Created the Unstable Single Woman, exploring how film, literature, and societal attitudes conspired to stigmatize unmarried women—from medieval spinsters to the "bunny boiler" archetype. The episode blends sharp historical insight with personal stories and humor to question why being a single woman has been deemed so problematic, and whether attitudes are finally changing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Persistent Stigma Around Single Women

• Cultural Stereotypes: Single women are often described using negative terms such as "immature, insecure, self-centered, unhappy, lonely, and ugly." (03:19)
• Media Representations: TV and movies—from Friends and Sex and the City to Bridget Jones's Diary—have pushed the idea that being single is undesirable and a temporary, fixable 'problem.'
  • "They're the cat ladies. They're the bunny boilers. Basically, we get a bad rap when all we want to do is be at home with our snacks doing a jigsaw." – Kate Lister (03:19)

Caroline Young’s Personal Perspective

• Young draws on her own single experiences and admits the vulnerability of weaving personal stories into academic writing (06:26).
• She touches on the pressure to have a boyfriend from a young age, shaped by both peer groups and media messages (07:15).

Historical Context of Single Women

• Early Modern & Medieval History: Term "spinster" comes from women who spun yarn—at times, this role was seen as threatening enough that laws restricted such women's economic independence (13:10, 14:10).
• Cults of 'Single Blessedness': Groups of empowered single women existed; for instance, 19th-century American women excelled in writing, campaigning, and medicine, often rejecting marriage to pursue their ambitions (12:08).
• Changing-Legal and Social Status: Only recently have women en masse been able to support themselves financially, reducing the necessity of marriage for survival (09:27).

The "Psycho" Single Woman in Pop Culture

• The narrative shift from "sad spinsters" (e.g., Miss Havisham) to the "unhinged" or "psycho" single woman emerges, especially in 20th-century cinema.
• Iconic Examples Discussed:
  • Fatal Attraction (Alex Forrest): Origin of the "bunny boiler"—a single woman presented as dangerously obsessive (20:21).
    • "What she did in that film led to a whole concept, the bunny Boiler. That came from Fatal Attraction." – Caroline Young (20:37)
    • Different ending filmed but changed after test audiences wanted Alex 'punished' [24:19].
  • Single White Female: Plays on fear of other single women as threats (29:23).
  • Cruella De Vil: Represents the single, ambitious, anti-family woman, notably debuting the same year as the contraceptive pill (30:40).
  • The 'career woman' stigma, seen in 1980s films like Working Girl, equates professional ambition with social and romantic failure (31:43).

Historical Roots of "Dangerous" Single Women

• Witch Archetypes: Isolated, independent women were frequent targets of suspicion, from medieval witches to 19th-century laws against economically independent women (15:34, 14:10).
• Freudian and Social Science Diagnoses: In the early 20th century, celibacy and singleness were pathologized as psychological or social deficiencies (10:23).

Single Women and the Pushback of 20th-21st Centuries

• 1950s-1960s: Women are steered back into domestic roles after WWII, leading to widespread dissatisfaction ("Is this it?" – Betty Friedan).
• 1980s-2000s: The "psycho" single woman merges with threats to family values, only later to be replaced by somewhat comic but still pitiable characters (e.g., Bridget Jones and Carrie Bradshaw) (32:28).

The Modern Era & 'Tradwife' Pushback

• The rise of men's rights and incel influencers revives misogynistic narratives about single women as tragic or threatening (39:39).
• Discussion of 'tradwife' social media content and the resurgence of ultra-traditional gender roles as a backlash to feminism (41:09).
  • "They're cosplaying as traditional wives. They are business women." – Kate Lister (41:50)
• Speculation about whether current misogynistic trends are the "last death rattle" of traditional patriarchy (43:15).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The media is forever perpetuating the idea that nobody would ever want to be single. That's the worst thing you can be." – Kate Lister (03:19)
• "I was going through a bit of a crisis. I was in my 40s. I really wanted to have a child, but felt like I'd made so many mistakes ... I actually found comfort in horror movies and watching psychotic women on screen." – Caroline Young (05:01)
• "I wish I'd had more of a positive sense that it's okay, actually, and I should've just enjoyed myself." – Caroline Young (07:32)
• "It's always been slightly mixed messages, really. ... There's always a kind of ebb and flow, really. And particularly in times of a man shortage ... what to do with surplus women." – Caroline Young (10:23)
• "It feels like I've got the cheat sheet to life ... I go to bed and I starfish on my bed and I spend my money on what I want to ..." – Kate Lister (37:10)
• "If some guy tells you that you're not allowed to go out to work because you have to stay at home and make him cheese, just hit him with something. Please." – Kate Lister (43:15)
• "If you're in the wrong relationship ... that's worse. You're better off enjoying being single." – Caroline Young (44:46)

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Segment Timestamps

• [01:32] — Opening: Kate Lister introduces the topic and the pervasive stigma around single women.
• [04:32] — Caroline Young joins; origin of her book and weaving personal experience with cultural analysis.
• [07:15] — Personal struggles with societal pressure to couple up.
• [09:27] — Historical change: women’s financial independence in the modern era.
• [10:23] — Cultural history: spinsters, surpluses of unmarried women, and the mixed messages of the 1920s and '30s.
• [13:10] / [14:10] — Etymology and social history: 'spinster', 'Eigenbrutlerin'.
• [15:34] — Emergence of the 'psycho' single woman: witches, Freudian diagnosis, dangerous archetypes.
• [20:21] — In-depth on Fatal Attraction and the bunny boiler trope.
• [29:23] — Single White Female: fear of single women, especially in urban environments.
• [30:40] — Cruella De Vil as archetype of anti-family, career-focused single woman.
• [31:43] — Career women and burnout stigmas in the 1980s.
• [32:28] — The Bridget Jones and Sex and the City era: comedy, but still judgmental.
• [39:39] — Contemporary misogyny: alt-right, incels, and tradwives.
• [41:09] — Explaining "tradwife" culture and its contradictions.
• [43:15] — Is this the backlash before progress? Are we at a turning point?
• [44:16] — Caroline Young's message to single women: embrace your life, don't settle for toxic relationships.

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Final Reflections

The episode ends on an empowering note: despite historic and ongoing pressures, there’s genuine joy, fulfillment, and peace in single life—and the "unstable single woman" trope deserves a much-needed debunking in both pop culture and societal discourse.

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Find Caroline Young:

• Website
• Instagram: @carolinejoyoung
• Book: Single and Psycho: How Pop Culture Created the Unstable Single Woman

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For listeners and readers interested in gender history, pop culture, and feminism, this episode offers both a laugh-out-loud and thought-provoking journey through the scandalously misrepresented world of single women.

Transcript

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[Kate Lister]

Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Cade Lister. You are listening to Betwixt the Sheets and we do like to get a bit mucky around here, so if you're a newbie, this one's for you. This is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adultery way, covering a range of subjects. And you should be an adult too, right? Fair dues. We have warned you on with the show. As a single woman, I have to say I do thoroughly enjoy myself. Honestly, it's great. But growing up, I didn't have any role models around me to tell me that. When you think about the TV shows and the films of the 80s and 90s and even into the 2000s, you'd be forgiven for thinking single women were all, what was it Bridget Jones said covered in scales. Whether we were watching Friends or Sex and the City or Single White female or even Ms. Havisham running around her house going completely back. Crap. Crazy. The message was everywhere. Being single as a woman is a very, very bad thing. But here's the secret. It's not, you know, it's absolutely freaking amazing. In today's episode, we are going to be looking at the history of the single woman in film and trying to unpick where that message comes from.

[Caroline Young]

The.

[Kate Lister]

Why do you look funny, man?

[Caroline Young]

Oh, money. Of course.

[Kate Lister]

You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.

[Caroline Young]

I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the button. Era now. We want era now.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

[Caroline Young]

Goodness. What beautiful Dan. Goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie.

[Kate Lister]

Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the the History of Sex Scandal in Society with me, Kate Lister. There have been lots of studies on single people, but one in 2008 found that single people are often called immature, insecure, self centered, unhappy, lonely and ugly. Well, that's brutal. And I certainly didn't participate in that. Those kind of results are not all that uncommon. I'm hoping that attitudes are starting to change, but it's been a rough old ride. The media is forever perpetuating the idea that nobody would ever want to be single. That's the worst thing that you can be. And when we look at the way single women have been portrayed throughout history, well, they're either frigid or high maintenance or completely mental. They're the cat ladies. They're the bunny boilers. Basically, we get a bad rap when all we want to do is be at home with our snacks doing a jigsaw. Today, Caroline Young is back on the show to talk to us about her new book, Single and Psycho How Pop Culture Created the Unstable Single Woman. And frankly, I can't wait to find out more. Let's do it. Well, hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Caroline Young. How are you doing?

[Caroline Young]

I'm great, thank you. Yeah, it's great to be back on the podcast.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, I had so much fun talking to you last time about hags. That was brilliant. And you are back with another book.

[Caroline Young]

Slightly similar, but maybe slightly younger, Hags. I guess that's the kind of idea.

[Kate Lister]

This is one rather close to my heart, it has to be said. Single and Psycho How Pop Culture Created the Unstable Single Woman. Hmm. Caroline, now, what provoked you to write this book?

[Caroline Young]

I was going through a bit of a crisis. I was in my 40s. I really wanted to have a child, but I felt. Felt like I'd made so Many mistakes in my past, like I'd just been in rubbish relationships. I really felt like I'd messed everything up. And I actually found comfort in horror movies and watching psychotic women on, on screen attraction, the Hand that Rocks the Cradle, I really found it quite cathartic. And I just got this idea to write a book and explore, explore those films, talk a bit about myself as well and how I relate to them. So, yeah, the idea was kind of born from that.

[Kate Lister]

So it's exploring the idea of singleness, but in particular single women. And how the image of the single woman has been negotiated in popular culture, but not just popular culture, in sort of like legal precedents and cultural frameworks. And it's a big topic, this one.

[Caroline Young]

Absolutely. Yeah. So I generally focused on film and television, but I also dipped into history, some sort of social aspects, literature. So yeah, I kind of touched on lots of different strands because, yeah, it's a big, big topic. It's basically how the single woman, if she's single, she's childless by a certain age, she's traditionally been treated as psychotic or as unstable, as frigid. Basically she's got a whole lot wrong with her if she's got to a certain point in life not having gotten married or having had children. And it's sort of ingrained in our culture.

[Kate Lister]

You're really honest in the book when it comes to disclosing your own experiences and your own background. And it was really nice to see an academic text with a lot of this is what I'm bringing to it. Did you feel at all vulnerable around that? Because I am a single woman and we are not done with the stigma of single women yet.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah, it was kind of difficult. I don't think I meant to reveal quite so much. It just came out. Some of the feedback I got when I submitted my first draft was they thought I should bring in a bit more about myself. So I was like, okay, fine. So I added in a lot more and I think it adds to it. But it's scary because, like when I'm talking about things, I do sound like a train wreck. And I realize that things sound quite messy in a way.

[Kate Lister]

I don't think you sound like a train wreck. I think it was really funny in places, actually. I really enjoyed it.

[Caroline Young]

Oh, thank you. Yeah. I mean, I think even going back to when I was at uni, when I think about it now, all my friends, they all had long term boyfriends. Like even when I was like 19, 20, like they were going out with these guys, like for Several years, I felt like I needed to have a boyfriend too.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, that pressure.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah, it really was crazy because I was like 19, you know, and. Or 20, and I felt this pressure, like I couldn't be the single one because I didn't have a group of single friends. So I think from that point it was kind of ingrained in me this idea that, you know, you have to be coupled up. It's a bit odd not to be in a relationship. I wish I'd had, like, more of a sort of positive sense that it's okay, actually, and I should have just enjoyed myself.

[Kate Lister]

But where on earth were you going to get that from? Like, when you came of age in the 90s and the noughties, like, you go back and you watch. I mean, I'm not saying that, you know, our entire culture and world outlook was shaped by Friends and Sex in the City. But if. Look at those shows. Like, the attitude towards singleness is appalling. Like the attitude in both of those shows, you've got a very, very strong friendship group who all look out for each other and are great. But the attitude to partners is just find anyone. Literally anybody. I mean, they're saying to each other, do you know anyone at work? Do you know anybody? Just you could fix me up with? It's literally just anyone is better than nobody.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. When you watch Friends, you've got Monica always on her quest, you know, to find somebody. The first episode, it was quite interesting. I don't know if people maybe don't remember what was in the first episode, but she goes on date with someone from work and she sleeps with him on the first date. And some of the feedback from the network was, you know, that made her look quite slutty because, you know, you shouldn't. Women shouldn't sleep with a guy on the first date. But the whole thing was he lied to her and pretended he was like, heartbroken over his ex wife. And so it was that double standard in Friends and. Yeah, Sex and the City, always on the quest, you know, having to be a certain way, do your singleness in a certain way. Bridget Jones, I guess, kind of.

[Kate Lister]

God, Bridget.

[Caroline Young]

Oh, to me that's fine because she's so sort of accident prone. And it's like I kind of see myself in her as well because I think she just reflects all those worries that I had, you know, about being fat when I look back. And clearly I wasn't fat. And, you know, all these things that she was kind of thinking. So, yeah, so it was there in My life in the late 90s and the 2000s, it's terrifying, isn't it?

[Kate Lister]

And when I think about the status of single people, not just single women, but in particular, single women, I think that we are actually at a very new point in our history, because this is one of the first points where women can earn their own money and support themselves. Like, we've kind of moved out of this financial obligation to pair up. That was there only a few generations ago. So this really is some of the first groups of women en masse who can go, actually, no, you're all right. I'm not very interested in that.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah, I think there is that sort of sense of freedom. It's so expensive having children. So I think, you know, back in the 50s or whatever, women were just expected to give up a job. They wouldn't work, they'd stay at home. Now it's like women have to have a job plus raise children. I think it's put so much pressure on either option, really.

[Kate Lister]

It does, doesn't it?

[Caroline Young]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Well, let's talk history, because I've already jumped ahead and want to talk about everything that's happening now. Like, what are some of the examples throughout history? Has there ever been a point where it's like, yay, single women are great?

[Caroline Young]

I think it's always been slightly mixed messages, really. I mean, I suppose you could argue, yes, there were times when, I suppose in the 1920s, you know, you had kind of the flappers living up. There was a shortage of men, basically because they'd been killed off in the First World War. And there was this sense of kind of hedonism and living for the moment. But at the same time, there was also a pushback against that. So there was that kind of undercurrent of, you know, there's something wrong with women. Freudian theory was coming into place. So it was this idea of, like, diagnosing single women. So it was. The idea of celibacy was kind of seen as sort of something wrong with it. So the idea of being single was tied in with being celibate because it was always, you know, you'd have sex and marriage. That was kind of what the message was pushed. So, yeah, It's. By the 1930s, there was a real kind of pushback on conservative values and family values. So, yeah, I think there's always a kind of ebb and flow, really. And particularly in times of male. When there's a man shortage as well, there's this interesting idea of what to do with surplus women. So it Was this idea that, oh, there's too many women, spare women. In the 19th century, one of the ideas was to kind of ship them off to. To Australia, you know, to send them.

[Kate Lister]

That doesn't sound too bad.

[Caroline Young]

I mean, it doesn't really, but, yeah, it was like, how do we get rid of them?

[Kate Lister]

So it's probably not what I'm imagining, though, is it? It's probably not like.

[Caroline Young]

No, not maybe.

[Kate Lister]

Lying out on Bondi beach, enjoying yourself.

[Caroline Young]

Oh, I think. Yeah. I think maybe it wasn't quite as pleasant.

[Kate Lister]

No, you can see the stigma around it kind of all throughout history, I guess you get, like, pockets of where women are single. Like, I'm thinking, like, nunneries and things like that, where women get together and go, right, men can fuck off. We've got a herb garden. Stay away. That's us done.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There were those little pockets of women kind of. Yeah. Particularly within sort of religious communities as well. And there was sort of an unofficial group of women, sort of in the 19th century, American women, who were excelling in literature, in campaigning for women's rights. They called themselves the Cult of Single Blessedness. And it was kind of this unofficial group.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, I like that.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah. Or like, you know, nursing, medicine, all these kind of things that women weren't supposed to be sort of excelling at. They chose to do that. A lot of women writers rejected this idea of marrying because they felt that it would impede on their time to write, which, you know, is obviously.

[Kate Lister]

Which you would have done.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah. Like Jane Austen and the Brontes. Charlotte Bronte didn't really want to get married. She did, but then, tragically, when she was pregnant, she died.

[Kate Lister]

I know. She was so young, wasn't she? But all of their books are about not being single.

[Caroline Young]

They know the audience, I guess, like, damn it.

[Kate Lister]

Damn it. Where does the word spinster come from, by the way? Because that's sort of a comedic word now. I'm not sure if anyone would actually deploy it in all seriousness. No, I know.

[Caroline Young]

I like to. I like to use the word spinster just to kind of. Yeah, just to throw it in there ironically. So spinsters are sort of a medieval term basically, to spin. So single women were often employed with spinning. And so, yeah, this idea of spinning, so it would be a task for everyday women as well, just sort of spinning threads. And during the Crusade, again, this surplus of women, because men had gone off to fight in the Crusades, so there was a lot more single women. So there's an interesting fact in Philippa Gregory's book, it was all about the history of women, or the history of ordinary women. I can't remember what it was called. But she mentioned how with the spinning wheel, a change in technology meant the spinning wheel had to go into the home. So it meant these single women were kind of hidden in home, whereas they used to kind of just walk around spinning yarn and a handheld device. They'd be much more sociable, and then they'd go indoors. And so it was kind of keeping them out of sight. Which I thought was really interesting, that isn't it? Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

I read a book recently about early modern Germany, as you do, and I was struck by this one word that I'm now going to massacre. It was like Eigenbrutler in. And it basically meant women who earned their own bread. And these were women who sewed, again, like the spinsters. And they were such a threat that, like, local districts passed laws against them that they weren't allowed to do it anymore.

[Caroline Young]

They were. Yeah, yeah. Isn't that crazy?

[Kate Lister]

I'd never ever heard of that before, but you sort of get a sense of the threat of it. Do you think that a spinster contains that same level of threat?

[Caroline Young]

I think it does, because I think it's this idea of there has to be something wrong with a woman who's still single. Like, why is she not married? Either she's been rejected, so she's unwanted, or she's frigid. So also, that was kind of frowned upon by the Protestant church as well. So this idea of, like, staying by being celibate, it meant you weren't married, as I, you know, mentioned. And so, yeah, there was kind of various expressions around that. Like, the idea of the old maid was kind of like all kind of, you know, haggard and unwanted. But, yeah, so I think spinster kind of, even though it is a practical word, then it kind of was used just to kind of describe a single woman. Then it took on those negative connotations of being unwanted.

[Kate Lister]

When does she start becoming psycho? Because that's quite an important feature of your book. They're single and psycho. When does the sort of mental instability start to emerge?

[Caroline Young]

Well, I think kind of an undercurrent, I suppose, with, I guess, this idea of the witch and, you know, that kind of the woman who's sort of outside of the norm, she's single, she's in her house. In her house, there's nothing but odd about her. A bit scary, a bit freakish. So I think that's always kind of there under the surface. And then I guess it's like, you know, in the 1920s, the sort of Freudian theory. And then when you're looking at movies, there's kind of like this sort of idea of the psycho girlfriend kind of coming into play. But that term wasn't really used, but it was just kind of seemed to be a bit easy as well. I think that was kind of maybe that link between sort of unstable, maybe drinking too much or having these kind of psychotic disorders that would make her lymphomaniac. So those were all kind of like tied to slight. In. Particularly after the war as well, after the Second World War, when men were coming home from the war and they felt threatened by independent women. So, yeah, this idea that, you know, what she'd been up to when we were away and sort of the idea of being too promiscuous. Sneaky women drinking too much. Yes, exactly. Then you see the unstable characters coming in. In film noir, I mean, I suppose.

[Kate Lister]

Like sort of early forerunners of that might be. I mean, you do see isolated examples of single women who aren't doing very well. Like Miss Havisham, for example, in Charles Dickens, Great Expectations. She didn't handle her singledom very well, did she?

[Caroline Young]

She didn't, no. She took it to heart, didn't she? So she's described as a witch. You know, she's got her white hair, she's in the white dress.

[Kate Lister]

The witch again.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah, she's all skin and bones. She's like. His description of her is like, she's wearing her wedding dress that she once filled but she's now shrunk. The dress is kind of baggy on her. And so that idea of locking herself away, dwelling on the past, driven mad. Yes. This is all the stuff that was in the Hag horror movies that we talked about before.

[Kate Lister]

It is, isn't it? I suppose it's something like Miss Havisham. You get like, she's not single by choice. But when do we start to get that, like, oh, I'm single by choice. Or has there long been a sort of a tinge of. Yeah, but it wasn't your choice exactly.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah, I think. Yeah. This idea of being single by choice, often the woman is kind of chasing after the man and he has to reject her. So, yeah, the idea. Single by choice. Yeah. The kind of frumpy spinster who's sort of given up on life, thinking like Bette Davis in Now Voyager, but she has this kind of awakening when she meets the right man.

[Kate Lister]

Of course. Yes, of course.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Because they don't often in films and books, they don't. The single woman doesn't often realize that she's fine by herself and she's gonna do some self care and perhaps try a bit of therapy and she'll be fine. That doesn't happen. Some prince turns up at the last minute to save her from herself.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah, all those films of the spinster in the 1940s, that was kind of. I mean, I love those movies, but yeah, it's this really, really interesting just to kind of see that evolution.

[Kate Lister]

What about after the Second World War? I'm thinking like the 50s and my girl Marilyn and that kind of era. How is singleness negotiated at this point in Hollywood? I mean, obviously singles bad. But like, what do you see changing?

[Caroline Young]

Marilyn actually her career is kind of interesting because she started off playing. She did a whole mix of roles. She's most known for doing her kind of ditzy blonde. But ultimately, you know, the goal is marriage and she'll kind of, she will get that. And then she played these kind of more complicated women later on. You know, they're really unlucky in love. She's kind of heartbroken. She's been around the block a bit. There's the hint, you know, that she's kind of had a bit of a past with men. Like Sugar Cane in some. Like a Hot and Bus Stop.

[Kate Lister]

The fuzzy end of the lollipop.

[Caroline Young]

Exactly. Yeah. She's worn. But we hope that she has a happy ending in these. So in the 1950s there was a real push to get women back into the home. And they were sold that message that marriage was basically what their destiny was. You know, they had all their home appliances they could play with. They should be happy just looking after their children.

[Kate Lister]

You don't need a career, you have a washing machine you don't need.

[Caroline Young]

Exactly. And that's what Betty Friedan's the Feminine Mystique came from. Because she realized that there was this entire generation of miserable women who were self medicating, who were harming themselves, who were just deeply unhappy and not fulfilled creatively as well. Because they were told that, yeah, their washing machine should give them all that they need. They don't need anything that's more fulfilling to them.

[Kate Lister]

And obviously if people find fulfillment in that, then the best of luck to you. But it's the idea that this was all that there was. Isn't that one of her lines? Is this it? Is this all there is or something? That was a Betty Frieden idea, wasn't it? And my grandma was off her face on Valium. She was one of those women that was just like, Jesus Christ. Just stuck at home all the time cleaning stuff. I mean, it's not a good place. But you can see why they went a little bit off the rails, some of the women that you speak about very eloquently in the book. Speaking of going off rails, Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction. What was her name?

[Caroline Young]

So, Alex. Alex Forrest.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you. Yes, Alex Forrest. Now, why did she focus in your attention? Because it wouldn't have immediately occurred to me that she was single. Because the whole thing is about how she got laid and then she got dumped. I don't know why. I don't think of that as single.

[Caroline Young]

Well, I mean. So that was basically when I watched that film that was kind of like the instigator for the book. I kind of based the book, kind of fell into place when I watched that film again. What she did in that film led to a whole concept, the bunny Boiler. That came from Fatal Attraction. Interestingly, I was talking to, like, a guy, I think he was about 30. He had never heard of Fatal Attraction, but he knew Bunny Boiler, which I thought was so interesting that it's just kind of taken on a life of its own, really. But, yeah, so Alex Forest, even her surname, Forest, you know, very witchy. Think of Sabbath and. And the idea of, you know, boiling the bunny, the cauldron. So, yes, she's the witch. And she has to be put down by the other woman. The good woman. The good wife.

[Kate Lister]

Yep. The good family wife. The one that stays at home.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah, exactly. Yes. And who is, you know, happy with caring and nurturing and forgiving. She forgives her husband for cheating on her, whereas Alex, you know, as the one has to be punished. And she was pregnant in the film and people forget about that as well.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, that is definitely overdue for a revision of, like, the story from Alex's point of view. Cause she wasn't the one who was married.

[Caroline Young]

Well, she did know that he was married, so.

[Kate Lister]

She did. Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Young]

He didn't lie to her about that. But I think she just is fed up. I think she's just like, you know, I've had it. Yeah. You just kind of use me for one moment and then cast me aside and expect me to be cool about it.

[Kate Lister]

And I did remember, because there's that bit in the film where she's become so unstable, she's now resorted to recording herself ranting on a tape and giving it to Michael Douglas character to play. Cause he won't talk to her, but there is one bit in it. And she goes. And it's. I can't remember what she says, but it's along the lines of, like, did you expect that you could just, like, shag me and then move on? And I do remember at the time thinking, good point, Alex. Badly delivered, but good point. Is that what he thought he could do? Just have, like, a quick shag and then. And then he'd be able to go back home to his wife and his children and all would be well?

[Caroline Young]

Yes, exactly. I think that's exactly what he thought. And she's just had it, I guess. She's been treated, you know, like that other occasions. And I think she talks about how she had a bad miscarriage in the past. That kind of stuck in my head because you think, okay, she's had all this trauma in the past and all these things, and now she's pregnant and she's being told, you know, the guy just wants her to get rid of it and she doesn't want to. She says she's 36 and it's her last chance in life. I think 36 is a bit young.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, so do I, but It was the 80s. It was the 80s, so let's face it.

[Caroline Young]

So I felt great sympathy for her. You sort of think, okay, maybe cool it a little bit. But I definitely feel some understanding.

[Kate Lister]

You say in the book that you identify a lot with Alex. That struck me in the book. Why? Why do you feel that? What is it? It can't be the sneaking into someone's house and murdering their pets. Or at least I hope it's not.

[Caroline Young]

It's definitely not that. No, it was more just that kind of disappointment and heartbreak and I think just experience that kind of frustration, you know, being ghosted. I'd been ghosted. And I think I understood that is not nice. And I understood how that. That feels. So, yeah, obviously I didn't do any stalking or anything like that. There is parts of you that kind of wants. You have this idea of taking revenge.

[Kate Lister]

That's so true. Actually, we're now tapping into a very dark part of ourselves. But that is true. There is a tiny part of you that's like, I kind of wish I could break into his house and burn his pets. Fucking dickhead.

[Caroline Young]

Or, yeah, do something like email his work. Something like. But obviously not do that.

[Kate Lister]

So. Yes, and don't do that. People listening, please.

[Caroline Young]

But there is that kind of. You want to. But obviously the sensible part and the kind of moral side of you knows.

[Kate Lister]

Not to do that.

[Caroline Young]

So I could kind of understand.

[Kate Lister]

Is it true that there was actually a different ending of that film originally filmed that got rejected by test audiences?

[Caroline Young]

Yes. Yeah. So in the original ending, Alix killed herself. She stabbed herself. But when the audience watched that, they felt that Alex needed to be punished and she needed Dan or his wife to punish her. And so, yeah, they filmed another. Another ending. Glenn Close was really, like, not wanting to do it. She felt it just kind of made the film, turned film into a horror. But, yeah, the studio insisted and, yeah, it made so much money. It was just this. Yeah. And apparently in America, audiences were just, like, cheering, you know, all that kind of thing that they do. So.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, so that image of the obsessive woman, because that's a sort of a slight shift in the narrative, because it's not something like Jane Austen sort of earlier and Miss Havish and blah, blah, the idea of the single woman. And it's like, oh, it's sad. Oh, it's so sad. She's so sad. She's gone completely mad. And now she's sat at home being sad in an old wedding dress. This is a shift to like, oh, she's fucking mad now. That's quite scary. What other examples do you have that where it's like. It's like the rejection or it's like the sex? She's become predatory, actually.

[Caroline Young]

Interestingly, there is a film from the 1970s which was directed by Clint Eastwood called Play Misty for Me, and that's very similar to Fatal Attraction. And he was also. Yeah, it's good. And he also directed a film called the Beguiled, which is about Civil War school run by women. And they all live together without men. And he's a soldier who they mend back to health and they all fall in love with him, but they're also dangerous. And it's this idea of kind of the single, isolated women who can become dangerous. And I think that's. Yeah, that was developing in the 70s as a sort of reaction to the feminist movement. When I was writing the book, I also thought about the Manson family, that trial in 1971. It was those young women who are, like, completely brainwashed. They're so blank. They're like the girls from. From the Shining. And I think there was something really quite horrific to society when they saw these women, like young women, out of control, brainwashed, murderous. And that tied in with the feminist movement as well. And this idea of, like, the dangerous single woman and what she was capable of.

[Kate Lister]

And you could see there's Something emasculating happening as well. That it's not just that she got dumped, it's now that she's an emasculating figure as well.

[Caroline Young]

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. In the 1980s, as family values were really being pushed, this idea that the single woman, she doesn't belong in the family. She's pushed out, she's predatory, but she kind of needs to be pushed away. And she's preying on the ideal domestic setting.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Caroline after this short break.

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[Caroline Young]

I need a coffee.

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[Kate Lister]

And then you've got something like Single White Female, which specifically uses the term single in its title. What was your take on that?

[Caroline Young]

Yeah, so that's interesting. That's again, this idea of the threat coming into the home, but this time it's single women living in the city who need to be afraid of other single women. Yes, it's a good twist. Yes. So, yeah, because I think, yeah, that idea of like the independent young woman living her life, but the character played by Bridget Fonda, she was living with her boyfriend, but he cheats on her. So now she's alone. And so she lets this other woman into her life. And this other woman starts copying her, getting the same haircut and dressing the same way. I guess it could be read as a warning about living on your own in a city. And if you single too long, you could let someone bad into your life.

[Kate Lister]

You could be murdered. Basically. Seems to be the message that in extreme cases, singleness will lead to stalking and then death. Possibly.

[Caroline Young]

Yes. The Cradle was also another one. And that again, was like the woman who, without a child, who wants to steal someone else's child. So I loved that movie. But yeah, again, it feeds into this idea of. It's also actually kind of a warning about using childcare. So it was like saying, well, the mother should stay at home and look after her own children, letting this nanny in to do all the work. And this is what happened.

[Kate Lister]

You know, one of my favorite single women. And you're not supposed to like her, but I do. Cruella De Vil, I hadn't put it together, but that was released the same year that the contraceptive pill was released.

[Caroline Young]

Oh, interesting, right? Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

I don't know if there's a connection there, but I just sort of see. And it's everything that you're saying about, like, she is that very unstable, very single, very anti family. She has a whole big talk about how, you know, more women have been lost to marriage than war, famine, disease and disaster. And you can. Yeah, actually cruel. A good point. But again, we see that, I guess the puppies become like a proxy family that she's trying to destroy there as well. And of course, the career. She's career orientated.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah. Oh, that's. That's such a good point. Yes. I never thought about Cruella De Vil, but yes, she is basically Alex Forrest trying to destroy God. She is children's animals, children's beloved pets.

[Kate Lister]

Where else do we see that emphasis on the career woman? That's another stigma is that you're so career orientated, you just don't have time for a family. Families again.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely in the 80s, that message was starting to come through. You have Working Girl where you got a Sigourney Weaver who's, you know, a very ruthless at work. And then you have Suspect starring Scher. It was this idea of burnout as well. That was the big thing in the 80s. Like women. Yeah, they were exhausted because, you know, they were working so hard and they didn't have time for families. They put all that. They'd forgotten about it. And female writers were talking about how, you know, they'd been sold a lie. They'd been told, you know, that feminism was the answer. But it's not because now we've lost our chance. So there's a lot of fear mongering. If you lost your chance of getting married, then, you know, you lost your chance of being able to have a baby as well. So heaven forfend it was all tied in together.

[Kate Lister]

So we kind of like moving out of the 80s where it's just like single women are going to kill you. They're going to come into your home and they might actually murder you. But then we sort of move into the 90s and the early 2000s equally as judgmental and awful. But we do have a. I don't know how single women are being treated at this point. Not well. I mean, the dominant narratives are things like Sex and the City and Bridget Jones and she becomes again. That tragic bit has come back again.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah, I mean, it became a bit more. So rather than the predatory single woman, it then became more comedic. So it was kind of like sitcoms dealing with singleness and Bridget Jones, Sex and the City, which were kind of, I guess, supposed to be celebrating this idea of being single. But also it was kind of like they're slightly tragic, you know, Bridget is a slightly tragic character and Carrie in Sex and City. Yeah, it's kind. It's kind of a celebration. But at the same time it's that question of but it's not fulfilling.

[Kate Lister]

No, it's very relationship orientated, isn't it?

[Caroline Young]

Yes, exactly. Yeah. And that idea of the kind of psycho single woman also comes out in the 2000s because there's this idea of the dating manual. So the idea of the rules that you have to stick with the rules and if you don't stick with the rules and do the right thing, then you'll be end up being left alone. And that's kind of what a lot of Sensitivity kind of played into the idea of that, of the dating manual and.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Young]

Films like how to Lose a guy in 10 days was like, you must. If you do all these bad things, you're going to chase the guy away and you're not going to have the happy ending that you want. The idea of being the cool girl, that was kind of what it also taps into.

[Kate Lister]

I just thought. I'm trying to think that when I was growing up, like, if I ever heard a narrative where it was like, it's all right to be single, I don't believe that I encountered that anywhere. There's this assumption that you're gonna get married and have babies from everywhere that you take on board yourself. Everyone around you is just instinctively getting coupled up. All of our media is screaming at us like, we've, you know, Bridget Jones. The whole film was about the fact that she wasn't in a relationship. And it's just like, no one ever says to you that it's all right. You don't have to do that. It's optional.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah, exactly. There is such an expectation on it. And I loved reading gossip magazines, so I would always, like, buy Heat magazine or I'd buy, you know, all those kind of things. And there was always the idea of sad gen as well, you know, who'd been dumped or who, you know, lost her chance of having a family. And young celebrities were attacked for living their lives in a particular way, for partying too much, for putting on weight, for losing too much weight, for being the wrong kind of woman so they get dumped. So, yeah, it was all these messages about that, trying to. You have to be the right. You have to look the right way, you have to act the right way.

[Kate Lister]

You have to be attractive.

[Caroline Young]

Yes. Yeah. And all these things, you know, just battled with all the time, like, just throughout my 20s and. And 30s.

[Kate Lister]

And so how did you go about unpicking some of that then?

[Caroline Young]

I was kind of thinking about that in terms of. Yeah, those messages that you get sold. I mean, because the thing is, I try to write it in a fun way because I love these movies. I'm not saying, you know, this is terrible. We mustn't ever watch them, but I think it's just so interesting when you put it in a social context, I suppose, and just think, what's actually happening at the time when these films are made? Like, what's happening in the 80s when Fatal Attraction was made? Why was that message so dominant then? And then you can kind of apply that to now and look at like our culture now and see how these things are working. Actually, everything just kind of rolled into place. Just start researching and watching and kind of. I was thinking about things in my life and thinking, oh, yeah, that's interesting. And one of the stories that I talk about is I hadn't really lived with anybody when I was in my early 30s and someone actually, a guy at work said, oh, have you never lived with anyone? And he kind of implied that was weird. So I ended up stupidly letting this boyfriend move into my flat and I didn't get rid of him for six years.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, we've all done it.

[Caroline Young]

It was terrible. It was really bad. And I think it was from that person saying that to me. And it just made me think, like, that's really abnormal and it's not. And see, that's the thing, and that's what I also wanted to get in the book is like, all these messages. But actually, you know, you should just embrace where you're at in life and not sort of worry.

[Kate Lister]

I couldn't agree more. It's a really strange thing having been single for as long as I've been single and like, encountering the stigma and encountering the headcocks to one side. Oh, don't worry, you'll meet somebody. Oh, like people endlessly trying to fix you up with somebody. People worrying about you, people assuming that it's a temporary state or some kind of failing. And to me, that it feels like I've got the cheat sheet to life. I'm so sorry to anyone listening to this who's in a terrible relationship. I'm very sorry, but it's just so quiet. It's just so peaceful.

[Caroline Young]

It's.

[Kate Lister]

I just. I go to bed and I starfish on my bed and I scroll through and I spend my money on what I want to and I go where I want to, I do what I want to, and. And I don't. Men out there, you are lovely, but unfortunately, the ones I've dated have been massive knobheads and they're just not there. Wrecking stuff.

[Caroline Young]

Yes, yes. You know, I loved living on my own when I was in my early 30s. I just. I had such a good time and, you know, I decided that I wasn't going to have flatmates anymore. I was just going to live by myself. And it was amazing. I loved it so much. And I wish that I'd kind of not let this person destroy that suddenly your space isn't your own. And it's like, I think women, we always sort of maybe let them Take over a bit.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, we do.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah. Push us. You know, like suddenly I can't put my yoga mat down on the floor here because he's watching something, playing computer games or I can't do this or you know. Yeah. I think I just always like shifted my behavior to fit around someone else.

[Kate Lister]

I recognize that within myself, if I'm in a relationship with somebody like myself starts to become second place. Like I start like centering everything around this other person until I find myself just like, what. What is going on here? And it's not a good place to be. But we can't turn this into an impromptu therapy session. But too I'll be back with Caroline after this short break.

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[Sarah]

Hey, this is Sarah. Look, I'm standing out front of a.m. p.m. Right now and well, you're sweet and all, but I found something more fulfilling. Even kind of cheesy. But I like it. Sure, you met some of my dietary needs, but they've just got it all. So farewell Oatmeal so long Use strange soggy.

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[Kate Lister]

Where are we up to today, do you think? Because single women are often back in the news with the rise of your alt right, men's right incel influencers who are so keen to tell everyone how awful it is to be a single woman. What's your thoughts on that? Oh, yeah.

[Caroline Young]

I mean, it's kind of depressing really. Yeah. So, yeah, I guess you could laugh at it. But there is something very sort of insidious about it. Just kind of like nasty.

[Kate Lister]

It's nasty.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah. The way that women are kind of talked about by men as being properties of having to kind of bend to the will of men and not being considered human, I guess, in some ways. So, yeah. Just not treated equal. And it's just really kind of. Yeah, it's depressing that I think young women are kind of growing up with that now because I thought we'd kind of moved on a bit. I mean, there's a lot of things I thought we'd moved on since like the 2010s, but yeah, it's.

[Kate Lister]

There it is.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah. It's just that way, you know, it's the way it kind of the push and pull, it just comes back. We had the kind of feminism of the 2010s and the me Too movement. So I guess it's inevitable there's going to be a pushback against it. So, yeah, it was interesting, that kind of dynamic between childless cat ladies. Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, the tragedy. If there are any trad wives listening, God, God bless you. Off you go, do your thing. But I find that fucking terrifying. And what's the weirdest thing about that is they aren't traditional wives. They're cosplaying as traditional wives. They are business women. So if anyone's listening to this and doesn't know what a tradwife is, could you quickly explain that, please?

[Caroline Young]

Yeah, well, so it's a social media phenomenon, really. It's like a TikTok thing where you get these women who are very nurturing. They enjoy staying at home, looking after kids, Making sourdough. Making sourdough. Making their own cheese. Yeah. Making these like really elaborate.

[Kate Lister]

Making their own butter.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah. Often, you know, wearing these like organic cottons, like these kind of flowing sort of dresses. Very sort of prairie, little House of the Prairie kind of style. Yeah. It's that idea that their satisfaction is just looking after the kids and staying at home. But obviously they're putting a lot of time into their social media. So actually they are working. Really. So they're working women, but they're just, you know, creating this fantasy life.

[Kate Lister]

And not only that, they're probably bringing in more money than this dope. Sorry, man. That they're supposed to be like, I'm just, like, I just love my husband. She's the breadwinner.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah. And then there's that kind of sort of layer underneath. You wonder how much they're being controlled by their husband. There was that interesting article in the Times with Ballerina Farm where she's saying that he told her not to have an epidural during childbirth. Like, she's got like eight kids, I.

[Kate Lister]

Think, and she was a dancer at Juilliard, wasn't she? With these huge ambitions. And it's, you know, the article didn't explicitly state it, but it's clearly held up of like, mate, that was like your dream and now you're making cheese on a farm. My God, what's happened.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I think she pushed back against that sort of.

[Kate Lister]

She certainly did, certainly. So if she's happy.

[Caroline Young]

But yeah, I mean, I guess there is that kind of sense of wanting to escape with this kind of slightly.

[Kate Lister]

Old fashioned making very easy to become radicalized. But they're all Mormons as well, by the way radicalized by Mormons through TikTok.

[Caroline Young]

Yes, exactly. But it reminds me of Phyllis. Was it Phyllis Shafley? Have you ever seen Mrs. America with Cate Blanchett? Yes. So this idea that she's pushing back against progress, women's progress, but at the same time, she's a working woman. She's trying to encourage women to stay at home, but she's spending all her time campaigning against women working. So, see. Yeah, it just. It's going back to the 70s again. It's. Yeah, it's that pushback.

[Kate Lister]

No, just keep going. Ladies. If some guy tells you that you're not allowed to go out to work because you have to stay at home and make him cheese, just hit him with something. Please, just. Do you think that we're moving to. Because sometimes when I'm feeling more generous about this stuff is like. I look at it as. This is a severe reaction to where feminism has brought us to today, which is that women do not need men in the way that they financially and socially needed them. The. The dynamics of relationships have to shift. And sometimes I think that this kind of very aggressive misogyny is a sort of a last death rattle. What do you think? Do you think I'm very wide of the mark with that?

[Caroline Young]

No, I think. I think it's kind of that sort of desperation point where people are like, hang on a minute, guys. You know, they feel like they've lost control, which. I don't know, maybe they kind of, like, had slightly sad lives when they were younger, and then now they've become powerful. I don't know.

[Kate Lister]

For anyone that's listening to this that might be single or is in a relationship, that's crap and fears being single. What, after all your research, would be your message to them about being a single woman.

[Caroline Young]

I think you just should enjoy where you're at in life. Yeah. I mean, I know it's kind of like you see all these things about how you're supposed to be in a relationship and you find happiness. Yeah. I mean, being a relationship can be great. You know, I know lots of people who have been very loving, happy marriages, and it's, you know, wonderful. But I think if you're in the wrong relationship as well. So I think feeling like you're rushed, like you have to be in a relationship or you're rushing into something, it can just lead you to kind of into toxic situations, and that's worse. You're better off enjoying, like.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Caroline Young]

Being single. And it's not. I used to feel such anxiety about It. But yeah, I don't you sort of think, what do you. What are you anxious about? There's nothing to feel anxious about. And also, if, you know, if it's because you want to have a baby, you can have a baby by yourself.

[Kate Lister]

You can have a baby by yourself.

[Caroline Young]

Yeah. You know, because I think that was, for me, was kind of like the. I was never worried about marriage, but I always wanted to have a child. But, yeah, you know, there's so many options now that you, you know, you don't need to think that that's like finding someone is like the be all and end all of that.

[Kate Lister]

No. And don't boil anyone's pets, I think.

[Caroline Young]

No, that is. Yeah. Because also we like animals and we talk to her animals.

[Kate Lister]

Awesome. Caroline, you've been marvelous to talk to. I knew you would be. If people want to know more about you and your research and your new book, where can they find you?

[Caroline Young]

So I'm @carolinej.young.com I'm on Instagram as Caroline Jo Young, and my book is. Yeah, out soon.

[Kate Lister]

Should we give it the full title One more time?

[Caroline Young]

Yeah. Single and Psycho. How Pop Culture Created the Unstable Single Woman.

[Kate Lister]

Fabulous. Thank you so much. You've been brilliant.

[Caroline Young]

Thank you. Thanks. Great to talk to you.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to Caroline for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to, like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. Coming up, we are going to be continuing our deep dive into sex work throughout history, from the brothel ships to the wild west. And if you'd like us to explore a subject or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email [e-mail] this podcast was edited and produced by Sophie G. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by history hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

[Sarah]

Hey, this is Sarah. Look, I'm standing out front of a.m. p.m. Right now and, well, you're sweet and all, but I found something more fulfilling, even kind of cheesy. But I like it. Sure, you met some of my dietary needs, but they've just got it all. So farewell oatmeal. So long, you strange soggy.

[AM PM Commercial Voice]

Break up with bland breakfast and taste AM PM's bacon, egg and cheese biscuit made with K tree eggs, smoked bacon and melty cheese on a buttery biscuit. AM P M. Too much good stuff.

[LifeLock Commercial Voice]

Sometimes an identity threat is a ring of professional hackers. And sometimes it's an overworked accountant who forgot to encrypt their connection while sending bank details.

[Caroline Young]

I need a coffee.

[LifeLock Commercial Voice]

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