Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society

Episode: Wife-Swapping Magician of the Tudor Court
Host: Dr. Kate Lister
Guest: Rachel Morris (historian and author)
Date: October 17, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Kate Lister welcomes historian and author Rachel Morris for a deep dive into the eccentric world of John Dee—the famed Tudor magician, astrologer, and confidant to Queen Elizabeth I, whose interests in the occult and alchemy, and especially a notorious episode of "wife swapping," still raise eyebrows centuries later. Together, they explore the blurred lines between magic and science in the Renaissance, the peculiar home life of magicians in the period, and why John Dee’s wife, Jane, deserves our sympathy.

Rachel also previews her new book, Years of the Strange: The History and Home Life of Renaissance Magicians, adding rich detail to Dee’s personal and professional world—from his scholarly ambitions to his susceptibility to deception.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Was a "Magician" in the Tudor Court?

• Differentiating the "magician" from the "witch" ([06:52]–[08:30])
  • Renaissance magicians like John Dee (always male, highly educated, library-owning, often early scientists) were accepted at the highest levels of society, in stark contrast to mostly female, working-class "witches" who risked being burned at the stake.
  • Rachel Morris: "Men like John Dee were highly educated... We would recognize them as early scientists, but they had a sort of strong streak of magic and mysticism running through the way they thought." ([07:14])

2. John Dee’s Path to Prominence

• Background and rise to courtly influence ([09:16]–[11:17])

  • Not nobility, but brilliant and scholarly, Dee tutored the children of aristocrats, amassing friends in high places.
  • Queen Elizabeth herself visited Dee at his home in Mortlake, signaling his rare status among non-aristocrats ([11:22]–[11:46]).

• What did magicians actually do for monarchs?

  • Dee’s services included astrology, alchemy (attempts to create gold), and celestial advice for state decisions.
  • Rachel Morris: “She [Elizabeth] was always interested in the possibility of being able to turn lead into gold, because, like so many people at the time, she needed the money.” ([12:22])

3. The Mindset of the Renaissance: Science and Magic

• Astrology and emerging science
  • Idea of “as above, so below”: cosmic events were believed to influence earthly matters such as war or plague.
  • Even the most educated minds entertained both scientific and magical beliefs.
  • Rachel Morris: "[Dee] slides in and out of what we recognize as recognizable thinking." ([10:34])

4. John Dee at Home

• Domestic life and relationships ([16:41]–[19:38])
  • Dee’s diaries reveal touching moments with his children and wife, Jane.
  • Rachel Morris: “He loved domestic life...a home and a family and that sense of this being his kingdom, his place.” ([18:31])
  • Accidents abound—his children frequently featured in his diaries due to their mishaps!

5. Enter Edward Kelly: Angel Medium and Catalyst

• The enigmatic assistant ([23:55]–[26:28])
  • To communicate with angels, Dee employed mediums. Edward Kelly became his long-term associate and, in Dee’s eyes, a credible "spirit scryer."
  • Kelly invented a vivid cast of angels and spirits as part of their workings, creating an intense, quasi-fantasy world.

6. The Family Slog to Prague

• A perilous journey for occult knowledge ([27:15]–[29:34])
  • Dee, Jane, their children, Kelly, and Kelly’s wife embarked on a six-year voyage to Prague and Bohemia—ostensibly for alchemical collaboration, but also due to shifting court trends and politics.
  • Jane endured constant upheaval and childcare in a foreign land while Dee and Kelly pursued esoteric science.

7. The Notorious Wife Swap

• How did it happen? ([30:41]–[34:17])
  • In Bohemia, Kelly claims the angels command that Dee and Kelly must “share” their wives to achieve cosmic harmony.
  • Both Dee and Jane are recorded as distraught—but Dee ultimately complies “for the sake of wisdom.”
  • Rachel Morris: “Your wife is dear to you, but your wisdom is dearer.” ([31:57])—reportedly relayed to Dee by Kelly "through the angels."
  • Jane is witnessed weeping, feeling compelled to consent for her husband’s work.
  • Kelly’s wife, by all accounts, evades participation—showing quiet resistance.

8. Fallout and Tragedy

• Consequences of the swap ([36:00]–[41:01])
  • Jane falls pregnant—not clear by whom.
  • Dee’s relationship with Kelly deteriorates; the families part ways, and Dee’s fortunes suffer a sharp decline.
  • On return to England, Dee finds his beloved library trashed, falls out of royal favor, and spends his remaining years in obscurity and poverty.
  • Jane dies of the plague alongside two children; Dee dies destitute.

9. Reflections on Dee’s Legacy

• Victim of obsession and trickery? ([41:45]–[43:14])
  • Dee’s reputation and intellect did not spare him from manipulation—perhaps by a "cult leader" in Kelly.
  • The real cost of Dee’s pursuits is most felt by Jane, who endured humiliation and heartbreak.
  • Rachel Morris: “He did get conned and it was because he loved his wife, but he loved his obsessions more.” ([43:14])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Kate Lister on the period’s contradictions:
  "It's funny, we can tie ourselves up in knots trying to make these kind of distinctions... This magic is okay, this magic is not okay. This one is very, very not okay. And this one is holy." ([08:07])

• On Jane’s predicament:
  Rachel Morris: “Sometimes he will write ‘Jane in a ferociously bad temper.’ And you see why.” ([28:21]) Kate Lister: “I have to go to Prague with the kids on a boat that'll probably take six months because some twerp said an angel told him to?” ([28:33])

• On consent and the wife swap:
  Rachel Morris: “Jane is crying, Jane is weeping, and John Dee is saying, look, I think we're gonna have to do it. And she agrees to do it. She agrees for the sake of his work. It's clear she doesn't want to do it.” ([32:17])

• On Dee’s heartbreak:
  Rachel Morris: “He was a man who adored his books...He loved to sign his books and he often doodled in his books, which was quite acceptable back then.” ([41:01])

• On Dee’s tragic arc:
  Kate Lister: “I feel the same way about him that I do about, like, people that get conned out of loads of money by some 22 year old who said that they definitely loved them and that they were going to run away together. And of course they weren't. That was never going to happen. But you just sort of feel a bit like, oh, they were hoping it would be okay.” ([42:28])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 05:46 — Rachel Morris introduces her book and how she found the story of John Dee
• 07:14 — Explaining Tudor “magicians” vs. “witches”
• 11:22 — Dee’s prestigious role with Queen Elizabeth I
• 13:33 — What was astrology to Renaissance elites?
• 17:19 — Dee’s domestic life and children
• 23:15 — Introduction of Jane Dee and her role
• 25:55 — Edward Kelly enters as Dee’s “medium”
• 27:15 — The families' arduous relocation to Prague
• 30:41 — The “angel-ordained” wife swap
• 32:17 — Jane’s resistance and heartbreak
• 38:11 — Aftermath: estrangement, loss, and tragedy
• 41:01 — Dee’s ruined legacy and devastating losses
• 43:14 — Dee as a tragic victim of his own obsessions

Tone & Style

The conversation is laced with Dr. Lister’s irreverent wit, historical empathy, and warmth; Rachel Morris brings nuance, scholarly insight, and real feeling for Dee, Jane, and even Kelly. The tone alternates between humorous asides (often about horoscopes) and deep sympathy, especially for Jane Dee and the family’s travails.

Further Reading

Find Rachel Morris’s new book:
Years of the Strange: The History and Home Life of Renaissance Magicians (published October 9, 2025)

Summary by Podcast Summarizer AI Service – for listeners who like their history both steamy and scholarly.