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Beyond Blind Blaming
How to Bounce Back Stronger from Layoffs and Thrive in Your Career | Jena Dunay
00:46:37
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- [00:01]
Jenna Dunay
It's very adversarial between employer and employee right now. If you have gone through a layoff, that's not the end of your story.
- [00:07]
Kevin St. Clergy
Today I'm joined by Jenna Dunay, who's the founder of Recruit the Employer, an outplacement and leadership development firm dedicated to assisting companies and employees through challenging transitions.
- [00:18]
Jenna Dunay
I was laid off early in my career. My ego was bruised. I felt, was I not really good at my job? Was I not actually valuable? And I realized that a lot of outplacement firms were actually not very good antiquated advice coaches that aren't really in the modern technical, digital age of how to find jobs. They weren't really teaching people how to market themselves. And so that's really why I founded Recruit the Employer as also an outplacement firm. If they can ask you, tell me about a time when blank, you can say, tell me about a time when you went through a layoff and how did you guys handle it? It's kind of like a prenup. You're not. You're hoping you're not going to break up, but you might break up.
- [00:52]
Kevin St. Clergy
Well, what advice do you have for professionals navigating significant career transitions?
- [00:56]
Jenna Dunay
I would say.
- [01:09]
Kevin St. Clergy
Welcome to Beyond Blind Blaming. This is the place where we explore how easily hidden truths can hold us back, trapping us in cycles of frustration and blame, often without even realizing what's truly stopping us. Each week, I'm joined by experts and professionals who share their journey of taking back control of their story, overcoming hidden challenges, and stopping blind blaming from dictating their outcomes. The insights you're about to gain will help you see beyond your current limitations and find the courage to seek new perspectives and ultimately live a life that's both purposeful and powerful. So if you're ready to break free from blind blaming and discover what's possible, you'll definitely want to listen to my next guest. I'm your host, Kevin St. Clergy, and today I'm joined by Jenna Duna, who's the founder of Recruit the Employer, an outplacement and leadership development firm dedicated to assisting companies and employees through challenging transitions. With over a decade of experience in talent and leadership development, Jenna has held positions in major organizations. And in 2017, that's when she launched Recruit the Employer. She lives with her family in Tennessee, and she has a sheepadoodle, which I'm curious about because I had a goldendoodle but never a sheepadoodle, with her daughter and her husband. So, Jenna, welcome to the show.
- [02:18]
Jenna Dunay
Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be here. And I probably need to add to my bio that I'm, like, about to give birth to my second, which is a little boy. Like, literally, I could go into labor during this conversation, so let's hope I don't.
- [02:29]
Kevin St. Clergy
Well, I'm gonna live vicariously through you. Unfortunately, I can't have children, but I did start dating a woman about nine months ago who's got four kids and four grandkids and fifth one on the way. At 43 years of age.
- [02:40]
Jenna Dunay
Wow.
- [02:41]
Kevin St. Clergy
I went from, like, complete debauchery, being able to do whatever I wanted to. Hey, what are you doing this afternoon? I was like, I don't know. I was gonna go to the winery, hang out with my buddies, you know? And she's like, we have two birthday parties. And I'm like, oh, shit. Okay. Well, this is new.
- [02:54]
Jenna Dunay
And I do have a sheep. A doodle over a gold. Would you say you had a goldendoodle?
- [02:58]
Kevin St. Clergy
I had a goldendoodle, yes.
- [03:00]
Jenna Dunay
Yeah, sheepadoodles are very needy. I don't know if goldendoodles were. But my sheepy doodle is very needy. So it's like a third child. Fourth, if you count my husband.
- [03:08]
Kevin St. Clergy
Well, we know how that works. The goldendoodle was pretty needy. I have a Doberman now, and I've turned her into a complete princess to the point where if it's raining outside, she goes and touches the grass. If it's wet, she's like, nope, sorry, dad. Not doing it. I have to force her out there. So, yeah, I've created a monster.
- [03:26]
Jenna Dunay
Well, I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me.
- [03:28]
Kevin St. Clergy
No, thanks for being here and taking the time. So what inspired you to establish recruit the employer? Because I love what you're doing. And how has your vision for the company evolved since its inception? It's been a few years.
- [03:38]
Jenna Dunay
Yeah. So it's funny. I started out where I was actually helping job seekers and specifically people that were looking to make really strategic career moves. And I realized a lot of people that were in that position, you go to high school, you then hopefully maybe go to college, and you go to college and you try to get a job. Well, the problem is, is your college degree that you spent a lot of money on never actually taught you how to find and land a job. And so a lot of people were ending up in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and having no idea how to position themselves, how to talk about themselves, how to market themselves for the job. And so I actually started out doing that, and Then over time I realized, hey, when people get laid off, that's a really hard time for that individual. And there's this whole market out there called outplacement. And companies will invest in this service that will help people with the very thing that I was already helping people with, which was helping them find and land jobs that they're excited about. And I realized that a lot of outplacement firms were actually not very good. I'm going to be honest with you, Kevin, they were, I mean, antiquated advice. Like coaches that aren't really in the modern technical digital age of how to find jobs. They weren't really teaching people how to market themselves. It was all of this, not personal branding, let's just say, approach to the job search. And I thought, gosh, there could be a, there's gotta be a better way to do this. And so that's really why I founded Recruit the Employer as also an outplacement firm.
- [04:57]
Kevin St. Clergy
I love it. Hired one of those company years ago because we, we had it recently had a little layoff with another company that I'm very familiar with and work with and had to help some of those people get new jobs. And I had them give me their resumes. And I was like, oh gosh, no, guys, this is, this is not described you at all. I've known you for 15 years. This is not you on paper. Let's regroup and try to come up with some new things. I still noticed though, you still have resumes on your website or sample resumes for folks, right?
- [05:21]
Jenna Dunay
Yep. So people can actually buy resume templates that are applicant tracking friendly. Meaning like if you apply online to a job, it's not going to boot you out because of a weird template or a weird format or something like that. So we do still have those on our, on our website as well.
- [05:37]
Kevin St. Clergy
Well, I understand you worked on Wall street for a bit, is that right?
- [05:40]
Jenna Dunay
Yes. So I started my career out on Wall Street. I was in investment banking and realized quite quickly that that lifestyle was not for me. I was like the girl who was working 80 hours a week. My dad called me a mule in a mine. I would go in when it was dark and I would leave when it was dark. And that was just like my existence. But I will say that it gave me some chops and some credibility and some resiliency right early on in my career. So I went from investment banking to actually working at the New York Stock Exchange, which honestly was such a cool place to work. I worked helping companies ipo, essentially was what my team did. And so I got to meet a lot of really impressive people. I got to watch Twitter go public. Alibaba at the time was the biggest IPO in the history of the world. That was my project that I got to work on. And it just was, yeah, it was a really great experience getting to work on Wall street in those capacities, but it was not forever.
- [06:29]
Kevin St. Clergy
Totally get that. And you got it sounds like you've got some balance now with what you're doing.
- [06:33]
Jenna Dunay
Yes.
- [06:34]
Kevin St. Clergy
But what I heard you saying was it taught me that I'm not going to be that person who has to work from sun up to sundown without a life. I've always felt that your career or your business should provide you with a life, not be your life.
- [06:45]
Jenna Dunay
Totally. So I think the biggest thing that it helped me learn was did I want to be owned by a company or did I want to own my own career? And that's honestly what we really teach in the recruit the employer methodology. So that when you go through a layoff, it feels like everything is happening to you. And we're trying to empower those people that are getting laid off to reflect on the time that they had at that company. Good, bad, indifferent, whatever, but looking forward to take back control of their career and actually own it again. Like that young kid that's in college or in high school that's like, I'm going to go do so many great things. And then we get into the workforce and we kind of feel like everything is happening to us and we're letting a company kind of take a lot of our power. We really try to help job seekers reframe that for themselves and not just wait for something to happen, but to take back control and actually go out and recruit the next employer for them. Which is why we named the company what we named it.
- [07:37]
Kevin St. Clergy
So one of the things I was taught by that career performance group years and years ago, I don't think they're even around anymore, but they had a whole page on my resume or marketing brochure as they called was called Demonstrations of Success. And I had about seven examples of what I did. And then I had specific results. And I was lucky enough to have that. And I got a $85 an hour, 40 hour a week job back then that was guaranteed for two years from that one page. And in fact, some of my mentors still talk about it. Cause they remember it so well. So that's one strategy I was taught. Just keep track of how you're doing and the specific results that an employer might want. Any other suggestions for people around that type of thing or.
- [08:16]
Jenna Dunay
Totally. I think the biggest thing is to a lot of people will go, they'll treat themselves like a historian in their own career when they need to think about themselves as a marketer for their career. And so the historian will say, well, I have this XYZ experience and I did these things in my day to day job. The marketer's going to say, what value can I bring to a future employer and why would they be lucky to have me? That's the change versus a lot of people go into an interview and they'll say, you know, I wish someone would hire me or I hope someone hires me. Instead of thinking, no, I'm actually the best person for this job because I know it can bring value. And so knowing the value that you can bring, knowing your personal value proposition, like a company would figure out, this is the value proposition of our service. You have to know what your value proposition is as an individual and be able to communicate that effectively, whether written or verbally. That's kind of what we help people do. But it's really, again, taking back that power for yourself. One thing that we actually recommend is that somebody should have it. A tear sheet is what we call it accomplishments, very similar to what you were talking about, where it highlights what are your key accomplishments, what are the results you're able to produce, and how is that relevant to this future employer that you potentially are interviewing with, sending an application to, or networking with. So it's again, being much more proactive in the process and less reactive.
- [09:30]
Kevin St. Clergy
Well, and I like how you talk about mindset because I think that, I think people can sense that when you're interviewing. They need somebody that's confident, not cocky, but confident that they can do the job. And I think I always liked it when my interviews turn into them interviewing me and the company that I'm hiring for.
- [09:45]
Jenna Dunay
Yeah, I always say take a consultative approach in an interview. So you need to be thinking about what is the problem that this person is having on the other side of here? Why is this hiring manager hiring for this role to begin with? A lot of people don't really even think about that. They like skim through the job description, read it once and be like, okay, I can do the job because I've had this X amount of experience, when really we should be treating that job description as a study guide to think. Why are they hiring for this role? Why do they need this role? What ultimately are they looking to accomplish? They're not just hiring for their health. Right. A lot of people I think just think, oh, they just need to hire more people. No, they're hiring to achieve a certain goal. How are you the right person for that goal? That is the key differentiator between somebody who actually lands the job and somebody who doesn't land the job.
- [10:27]
Kevin St. Clergy
Well, as I was cyber stalking you, I found that you've spoken about the importance of personal branding for job seekers and what strategies do you recommend for individuals looking to enhance their personal brand. I don't think a lot of people think like that, but they should.
- [10:39]
Jenna Dunay
Yeah. I mean, again, I think it goes back to that very basic concept of what's your value proposition? And so understanding how you bring value to a marketplace is really important. And then how that gets translated. I mean, my favorite place to build a personal brand right now I'm kind of biased is LinkedIn from a personal professional brand. So at the end of the day, what we're finding is that people that are More active on LinkedIn have a higher chance of getting the job, of landing the job and being sought after for jobs. Because if the more active you are, the more top of mind you are, the more you're going to be seen as an industry expert and then recruiters are going to find you, they're going to seek you out. Companies are going to say, oh, this person's an expert in XYZ thing. And then if you are a person who's pivoting, it actually gives you a platform to showcase an expertise, even if you don't have all the experience to back it up. So I actually think that from a personal branding perspective, knowing your value proposition first and then finding a way to market yourself, LinkedIn being the easiest way, in my opinion is kind of that twofold approach.
- [11:38]
Kevin St. Clergy
I like that. So taking the time to fill out a complete LinkedIn profile, it sounds like.
- [11:43]
Jenna Dunay
So I also say that like LinkedIn is kind of like passive income. It works for you while you sleep, where your resume is only going to work for you when you submit it online. And so I would think about LinkedIn as a passive income stream for your career.
- [11:56]
Kevin St. Clergy
I love it. Well, what advice do you have for professionals navigating significant career transitions? Because we know layoffs are a thing right now, especially when private equity gets involved, companies are put together, there's job overlaps and people do get let go.
- [12:10]
Jenna Dunay
I would say one, if you're a business owner and you are going to have to go through a layoff, consider laying those people off with dignity at the end of the day, they are not just a number. They have a family, they have. This is their livelihood. There are so many other emotional pieces to it. It's not just business. And so the more that you can treat that person with dignity and respect and sending them off well with your severance package, hopefully including career transition services like ours, obviously I would recommend doing that because not only is that just goodwill to do that one, it's also going to help mitigate risk for you as an organization from lawsuits. It's also going to help you with your employer brand. And quite frankly, when it comes time that you might want to hire again in the future, if you leave them with a great feeling at the end, they're never going to be perfectly happy. Right. No one wants to get laid off. But if you leave them with a softer landing and show that you cared, they may actually loop around, which lowers your recruiting costs. So there's like some pieces that companies need to recognize that not only is this just a nice thing to do, it also actually makes sense from a business case perspective. So that's the first part. If you're a person that's getting. That has been laid off. I was laid off early in my career. I was even planning to leave literally in two weeks. But I got laid off. And it was. I was a devastated blow. Like I was planning to quit. And I still felt like this massive, oh my gosh, got punched. Like my ego was bruised. I felt, was I not really good at my job? Was I not actually valuable? I would recommend to give yourself space, as much space as you can financially afford to regroup and remember that you are good at the things that you're really good at and that this could be a blessing in disguise. The mindset work that you were talking about, that confidence piece is so important to start to reframe for yourself in the very beginning stages that if you don't do that work up front, spend time really thinking about, what do I actually want out of my career? Once you get to an interview, you're not going to show up confident, you're not going to negotiate your salary, you're not going to do any of those things. You have to do that work upfront in order to be impactful later on.
- [14:18]
Kevin St. Clergy
So going back to the companies, because the reason I'm going to spend some more time on the layoffs with dignity. I love that. On another episode, I had a guest who was actually still working with people looking for jobs.
- [14:30]
Jenna Dunay
Yeah.
- [14:31]
Kevin St. Clergy
And I was a little thrown back when he said well, they need to ask, you know, have you had any significant layoffs this, this year or the years prior? And how did you do it?
- [14:38]
Jenna Dunay
Yeah, it's a bold question.
- [14:41]
Kevin St. Clergy
It's a bold question, but a good one.
- [14:43]
Jenna Dunay
Yeah.
- [14:44]
Kevin St. Clergy
And, I mean, he went farther into it. It wasn't like that's what you lead with. It was just because I had asked him, like, what are some questions you think interviewees should be asking? Like, one of my favorites is, how do you plan to measure my success?
- [14:55]
Jenna Dunay
I've actually posted about this on LinkedIn that that should be a question that people should feel comfortable asking, is if they can ask you. Tell me about a time when. Blank. You can say, tell me about a time when you went through a layoff and how did you guys handle it? Because at the end of the day, the reality is sometimes these things fall apart. Sometimes we have to break up. And so I want to know what that breakup is going to look like. And I think that there is more power to employees who ask that question. It is. You have to feel very confident in yourself to ask that question. Right. Because it feels very personal and kind of affrontive in a lot of ways. But I think at the end of the day, your livelihood depends on this employer. And so you need. Again, it's a part of that process of taking back control of your career that you are not. It's not just happening to you. You are happening to your career. And so you have to be able to take back control of that narrative. And you're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. Like that. That's a huge piece of it. If you've got a family at home and you want to know the answer to that question, you want to know what that breakup's going to look like, should that ever come. Because no company's perfect. Every company goes through ups and downs, and you're not expecting to break. It's kind of like. It's kind of like a prenup. You're not. You're hoping you're not going to break up, but you might break up, and so you sign that prenup anyways. And so I feel like it's a very similar idea here where it is smart to ask that question. You just have to be bold enough and confident enough to ask it. But I love that question.
- [16:21]
Kevin St. Clergy
Well, I love your approach, because what I hear you saying is you're trying to find companies that align with your values and your purpose, which is a big part of my new book is like, look, when Something's going off. Sometimes it's related to your core values, your purpose. And you need to find some companies that create that alignment, not the tension.
- [16:37]
Jenna Dunay
That's actually one of the first things that we recommend people do is actually work on their career core values. A lot of people don't really spend time doing that. We make sure that people spend time thinking through, what are my career core values? Was my last employer in line with those? What do I actually want in my career? So often I find that people are just moving through life and just things are happening to them, and they're on this lazy river, and then all of a sudden there's like a huge waterfall and they fall off and they're like, I didn't. I didn't plan to be on this. This lazy river here. Well, how did I end up here? And it gives people the opportunity to dream again in their life and their career. Because we know, especially in 2025, when we're recording this, life and work are very symbiotic. If stuff's happening at home that is spilling over into work, if stuff's happening at work, it's spilling into home. There's a lot less separation and a more integration. And so you have to know what you want in your career and then feel confident enough to go after it.
- [17:35]
Kevin St. Clergy
That's one of the reasons when I'm working with leaders and they're having trouble with an employee, I was like, look, have you scheduled some time with them just to go ask them, hey, are you okay? And a lot of times you open up floodgates, so be prepared and be ready. But usually something is going on. It's sometimes just tough not to bring it to work when stuff happens.
- [17:51]
Jenna Dunay
That's actually one of the things that we were working with a company on the leadership development side, and they had to put this person on a performance improvement plan because they just weren't performing. And I said, well, did you. Is something going on with them at home? Well, I haven't asked that question. Well, you don't have to ask that exact question, but you can open up the conversation to say, hey, this is not typical of your performance. What's going on? Like, help me help you. Let's have a conversation and come to find out there was stuff going on at home that was impacting their performance. And so, okay, let's put a plan in place to make sure that you still are excelling at work, but that we can also give you some grace in the process. So I think both things can be very true.
- [18:25]
Kevin St. Clergy
It's hard sometimes to get companies to forget that people do want to come to work, they do want to work. Sometimes they don't want to work for you, but majority of the time they do want to work.
- [18:35]
Jenna Dunay
I think work gives people a lot of purpose. It gives people meaning. They like to feel valued in what they are doing. I feel like in today's day and age, and this could be just my perception, I don't have a lot of data to back this up. But we live in a world where people really look at their work as a validation of their purpose. They connect those things so clearly together. So they want to do well, they want to perform well. Are we allowing them the space to make it not feel like we're at war between employer and employee, but we're working together to accomplish some goal together?
- [19:09]
Kevin St. Clergy
I want to go back to the career core values because part of my book, when you're trying to stop blaming and start to get to the root cause, a lot of it does come with establishing yourself or getting some core values for yourself. What are some. Can you give the audience some examples? I just wrote down career core values, question mark. Examples.
- [19:27]
Jenna Dunay
So I was working for an organization. I was the chief learning officer there. And I was realizing I was really discontent and I couldn't figure out why. What's going on here? I'm getting paid well. Like, I have really great coworkers. I realized that a core value of mine was freedom in my career. And I was not given freedom physically. Like I had to physically be in the office, which was not working for me personally. And then my other piece was freedom with projects and being able to use my creativity and realizing that was a core value for me. So finding if I were to ever work for somebody again, finding, figuring out what my path was, it had. That had to be a core tenant to what I was doing professionally for somebody else. It might be structure. They might be the complete opposite. Where I've had lots of clients who are individual people that are changing their jobs, where the structure is actually really important to them. They want to know that in two years I'm going to get promoted in two years after that. And I want to know that I'm going to have the benefits. I really thrive on structure if I'm a part of that. So a startup is not a good place for them. In a Fortune 500 company, right?
- [20:28]
Kevin St. Clergy
Exactly. Where everybody's changing and everybody's VPs, that's it.
- [20:32]
Jenna Dunay
Yes. A Fortune 500 company is a great spot for that individual where someone like myself would die a slow death in working for a Fortune 500 company.
- [20:40]
Kevin St. Clergy
Me too.
- [20:41]
Jenna Dunay
So it's just knowing yourself and knowing what motivates you, what inspires you and what you want to get out of your career and out of your life.
- [20:49]
Kevin St. Clergy
Great. One of mine's fun. I've always said when it's not fun, I'm done. And what's nice is now I control, but I get to control what's fun and what's not. So yes, that's one of mine. But I strongly encourage every listener to go and figure out what your core values are. But I like how you put a little different spin on it because that's something that I don't say. I've never said career core values when you're looking for a company. And maybe I can add that to the book if my editor won't kill me for changing stuff and give you credit.
- [21:14]
Jenna Dunay
Yeah, that sounds good. But I mean even the values piece, right? So like thinking about what are the values that a company is aligned with, like maybe it's really important for you that they are involved in X, Y, Z initiative or that they're really big or that they're really small. Like all of that plays into part, into the part of what your core values are and what you value in your career and what you want to get out of it.
- [21:34]
Kevin St. Clergy
Are you tired of feeling stuck in your business, career, relationships or your health? Are you frustrated by problems that just won't go away no matter what you try? After coaching and teaching thousands of people for over 25 years, I've discovered something powerful. Every unresolved problem has a hidden solution you just can't see yet. That's why I created the From Stuck to Breakthrough challenge. A free 5 day live experience where I'll show you exactly how to uncover what's really holding you back and finally break free to the results that you want. Whether it's in your business, your health, your wealth, your relationships. I'll help you discover the real root cause of your challenges and give you the blueprint for permanent change. Join me and a community of like minded people ready to break through. Go to blindblaming.com again, that's blindblaming.com to sign up and we'll see you soon. In your opinion, how is this concept of work, since we're both talking about it, evolving and what should both employers and employees do to adapt these changes?
- [22:31]
Jenna Dunay
I would say just giving a lot of grace to the opposite side. So I think employers are really frustrated with employees and the Quiet quitting and all this talk that you hear about. And then on the other side, you have candidates that are upset because there's layoffs that are happening. And just like, there's a lot of anger toward. It's. It's very adversarial between employer and employee right now. People are upset. I just had a friend of mine where works for a really, really large global company, and for the past four years, they were working remotely, and everyone was allowed to work remotely. So people moved away from the headquarters, all of that. They gave them less than a week to all return back to the office for at least four days a week. Well, that's going to create some more adversarial moves. Like, sure, you want to have them return to office, but like, let's actually think through all the implications of what could happen based off of that. So I think it's. It's companies being more thoughtful, and it's employees having grace for leadership that don't know what they're doing. You know, at the end of the day, they're still people. And so I think that there's. There's oftentimes this friction that's happening. I often see it with job seekers. They get mad at recruiters. You're ghosting me. It's like, well, they have a thousand applications like, that would be really hard to sift through. They can't give an answer to every single person. So I would say grace on both sides, that it's not you versus me. It's when companies are able to do it together. That is when we actually see thriving cultures, thriving organizations, and people actually doing well, both on the leadership side and on the employee side.
- [23:58]
Kevin St. Clergy
You're describing something I call the blame loop, by the way. That's where we get this vicious cycle of blame. And then it creates this behavioral bedrock that leads to us not seeing solutions. Like, I would have asked that person. Well, the recruiter ghosted me. Well, did you call them and email them? Yeah, yeah, I called them. Did you leave a message? Well, no. That's my favorite one, by the way. Well, leave a message.
- [24:19]
Jenna Dunay
Yeah. Nobody does that on the phone anymore.
- [24:21]
Kevin St. Clergy
I know. I've heard that. I love it. So here's my test. You ready? You're going to love this. I can tell a person's age by just calling their phone.
- [24:28]
Jenna Dunay
Oh, I totally agree with you here. Yes.
- [24:31]
Kevin St. Clergy
You know where I'm going, right? If they have their voicemail set up, they're over 40. If they do not have their voicemail set up and it just has standard or it just says this person has not set up their voicemail. They are totally under 40 and just do text.
- [24:42]
Jenna Dunay
That's so fun. Now I am under 40 and I do have a voicemail, so. So I ruined that for you.
- [24:48]
Kevin St. Clergy
But okay, I'll have to move it to 30 and below then.
- [24:50]
Jenna Dunay
There you go. There you go. Gen Z, I think for sure does not have a voicemail set up. But I think that there's just. Work is such an interesting place right now. There's a lot of controversy that's happening again, that return to office, the layoffs, all of it. And I just would say that having more grace on both sides would help us a lot.
- [25:10]
Kevin St. Clergy
Yeah, I bet. Well, just in compassion, I think you're describing emotional intelligence. It's understanding not only our emotions and how we're reacting to a certain situation, but how others feel. It's just like when a recent layoff with some friends, I just said, well, guys, it's never easy. It's not an easy decision for companies to make. And we're going to circle back to the employers here in a minute because I think a lot of times the CEO just says, look, I got to cut this and you guys have to do it. You decide, let me know. And there's not a lot of time. And then it just gets done without compassion, as you said. But some people understand, some people about.
- [25:42]
Jenna Dunay
I have a lot of empathy actually for senior leadership because it's very lonely at the top and it's very lonely to make those decisions. I've talked with a lot of leaders. Nobody wants to lay somebody off. And anytime that an employee says that, I'm like, you either have a sociopathic leader or maybe you're just really angry right now, which is totally fine and totally fair and you should be angry also. It's never an easy choice for somebody and that we could get into. I know that I'll have pushback of people will say, well, they make so much money and yada yada. That's a different topic for a different day. But no leader actually wants to lay people off. It is the most uncomfortable, terrible thing to have to do when you have to do it.
- [26:25]
Kevin St. Clergy
No, because we all go through leadership classes and we all want to build a great team and we don't wake up in the morning and say, boy, I can't wait to fire this person. It's not. That's not how they think.
- [26:34]
Jenna Dunay
Yes, nobody wants to do that.
- [26:36]
Kevin St. Clergy
I mean, I'm talking three glasses of wine in a tequila shot for Me personally, I dread it up until the point it's nobody looks forward to it. I always tell people, look, I'd be more worried as an owner if you didn't care. And the fact that you care and you're putting it off. I will say that Regent, I want to hear your opinion on this because I did have a career expert on too. And he coaches nine figure business owners. Yeah, very successful man. But he had talked about instead of letting people go, sometimes he is advising people to start using what he calls transition plans.
- [27:04]
Jenna Dunay
What does that mean for him?
- [27:06]
Kevin St. Clergy
Well, what it means for him is when you know somebody's not working out and you know they're not happy and you actually know they're looking for another job, it's kind of like they're looking for another job but they're looking forward to telling this person off so they can get that other job. But then they get fired too quickly. That's what I think people miss sometimes. I heard that recently from a person. I was like, well, that's the wrong way to think. But what he does is say, look, I don't think you're happy here. We're not really happy with your performance. This isn't something that's going to happen right away. But I do want to talk about in the next three to six months, either transition you out or transition into the position of the company. He felt it was a softer approach. I was just curious what you think because I've had some people try it in small medical practices and it works really well or has so far. I have no idea how it would work in corporate America. I'm just curious what you think.
- [27:50]
Jenna Dunay
Yeah, you're actually seeing this happen more and more. So we actually had somebody who hired us for that exact reason where they give. If somebody's underperforming or they're having to shut down, maybe they know they're going to be shutting down part of a division or something like that. But largely they're a bad culture fit or their performance is not doing well. If they're not doing well from a performance perspective, they'll give them like six months and they call it search time. And they actually provide them with a service like ours to help them find the next opportunity. And at the end of that six months, they've parted ways. And whether that person has found a new job or not found a new job, that's kind of up to them. And what they're, what they're doing, but they're at least both acknowledging it. I've Actually seen that work really well. And it's a peaceful separation. You're actually seeing this also with big organizations like McKinsey, a big consulting firm people have probably heard of before. This was last year, they were talking about it, but they have this kind of adage of up or out, meaning like, you have to rise through the ranks and become partner or you gotta get out. And if you don't wanna rise through the ranks, we'll help you find another job somewhere else. And so I love that. I think that that's actually good for culture, it's good for the morale of people. And it's only going to help you get the people that really wanna be there while supporting people that have already have done a lot of really great work, perhaps already, but just aren't good for that next season of your business. Especially for growing companies. I actually see this a lot where who they started with five years ago is very different than who they need now. And so there's a skills misalignment that hasn't caught up and probably won't catch up. And so how do you. A lot of business owners struggle to let those people go, which rightfully so. Right. They help build them to where they are, but those people can't get them to that next level. So what do you do? Either have this kind of like drag, if you will, in your organization, or you can peacefully and compassionately let them go. I see. Actually see this more and more happening and I personally love it because I think it's a really great way to look at respecting the employees that have helped you build thus far.
- [29:46]
Kevin St. Clergy
And what I like best about it is I've coached CEOs and business owners for many years and just use this this year because I just learned it and I thought it was brilliant. What I'm finding is it's. It's not delaying that decision because too many times when people quit and stay, it's because the owner, CEO, their boss hasn't had that difficult conversations. Which, by the way, there's a new book, I think it's called Tough Conversations. I had him on the podcast. Amazing, amazing podcast. Check it out. Once we get it up and live. I think it's called Tough Conversations. Great book, great guy. Lots of good information for having those tough conversations. But I think a lot of people avoid them. And that transition plan seems to work a lot better.
- [30:24]
Jenna Dunay
Yep. It's like we're coming to the table, we're being honest about things, and then also we probably need to part ways. How do we do that gracefully.
- [30:32]
Kevin St. Clergy
How do you think leadership influences company culture? And what steps can leaders take to foster a positive environment?
- [30:38]
Jenna Dunay
Yeah, there's a zillion things that they can do. But I would actually say that obviously with the lens of that I come to working with organizations with is you've got to be thinking about the entire employee experience. You've got to be thinking about onboarding as much as you're thinking about growing your team, as much as you're thinking about offboarding. And most just think about the first two. They don't think about how do we send people off. Well, and so I would say that it's the entire employee life cycle that's going to create an experience where people will want to come work for you and create that employer brand that's actually attracted to the right high performing type of people. Because high performers want to be around other high performers. And if they feel like you care about them and are taking care of them throughout the entire lifecycle of them working with you, you are going to have a friend in the industry and that's what you want, even if they go and move on past you. So that's like one thing that I would say. And the other piece is modeling what you want to see happen in your team. So a lot of leaders I see, they're, they're, they are not modeling the behaviors that they want their teammates and people that are junior to them to. To act on. See this happen all the time. And I also see where the middle management gets lost in the shuffle and there's not enough support for middle managers to create a culture that wants. Gets people to want to stay. So there's kind of twofold for that. Depends on what kind of leader you're talking about. Senior leadership's one thing, middle management's another thing. And then the entire employee life cycle.
- [32:08]
Kevin St. Clergy
Cool. Great advice. I want to go back to the off boarding because you're actually just changing my coaching program because I wrote a big star on that one. You're right. I help people with onboarding and like, what's your onboarding like? And I was. My favorite answer is, what do you mean? I'm like, wrong answer. Wrong answer. That is not. You want to tell me what they're doing, but I have never. How do you even start with an offboarding process? Talk to us a little bit more about that because that was fascinating to me.
- [32:31]
Jenna Dunay
Yeah, it is. Like nobody ever talks about it. So you got to think about it in two ways. What are we going to do if we have to Let people go, whether it's for performance or economic reasons. Then we also got to think about how do we say goodbye to people that are voluntarily leaving. So there's kind of three different use cases and having a plan for both of those. All three of those is so, so, so important to again, the entire employee life cycle. So many people will get to the end of somebody leaving and they're like, oh, wait, why? Why are you leaving? There's no surveys in place, there's no right. And you don't really have an idea of what compelled that person to leave. And if you start to see a trend of like more people leaving, well, you want to know why? Why is that happening? Why are we losing good people to other companies? You want to know why? So you have to have a plan in place for that, and then you have to have a plan in place for if people are not performing well. And how do you do that compassionately? And then if you have to let people go because of economic reasons, you also should have a plan in place because it all works together. So it's really about identifying when people are leaving, why they're leaving, and how do you say goodbye and leave on good terms so that you become a friend of the industry?
- [33:37]
Kevin St. Clergy
We don't think like that. That's my big takeaway for today, by the way. You can tell I'm so excited I got to get back to focusing on you. But that was awesome. That is such great advice. I've never thought about it.
- [33:47]
Jenna Dunay
Yeah, because it kind of feels like most things in life, at least for creatives like myself and probably you as an entrepreneur as well. It's like we get excited at the start of something, but the follow through to the very end feels tedious. Right. But if we followed through to the end, what more of an impact could we make and what more could we accomplish? I'll give you a great example. When I was leaving my last employer, we ended on really, really great terms. And that was because of both of us. And it was because they thought about off boarding. It was because I was clearly communicating. And then we got to continue working together and I still send people their way and I'm a friend of friend of theirs now, even though I don't work for them anymore. So you want your employees, whether they're getting let go, whether they are getting fired because they didn't perform, or they're voluntarily leaving, you want them to be an alumni of your organization, not just an ex employee. And that's a different mindset shift and that's you are able to do that if you off board, effectively.
- [34:42]
Kevin St. Clergy
I want to talk a little bit about the importance of networking because I think people forget it. I think we, because we work at home, I think we develop our own little personal silos, tell me if I'm wrong and we stop the networking thing. So what are some things that like my coach, even where I'm at, encourages me to reach out to five people a day, period. It's one of his non negotiables. It's changed every. I had to stop for a bit because the. The book's about to launch. It'll be launched by the time the podcast launched. But I had to stop because so many people were. I'd forgotten about the importance of networking is my point. And I would think whether you're an employer, a business owner, employee creating that network, or maybe I should say your network is your net worth. Anyway, back to networking. What do you think is the best way to network these days? You seem to like LinkedIn. So anyway, let's, let's go there for a bit.
- [35:24]
Jenna Dunay
I love networking and here's why. I love networking. I don't think about it as networking. I think about it as a relationship building. So the big reframe for a lot of people is they feel like networking is a happy hour or feels icky, awkward. That's usually the word, the association with networking. So what I usually tell people is to reframe that is that you're just building professional relationships that are going to develop over time and they have to be mutually beneficial. You can't just take and they can't just take. It's kind of. It's a symbiotic relationship. So I love the idea of doing the five a day. I have actually have a question back to you on that. Do you just reach out to people or do you say hey, let's set up a call? Like what do you do whenever you are networking and sending out those five messages a day?
- [36:07]
Kevin St. Clergy
Yeah, great question. So I stole it from Dan Martell or what I like to say is I ethically swipe and redeploy. But I am a paid coaching client of his and he always says use whatever you want. So I want to give him full credit. He wrote a book, we'll put it in the resources section called Buy Back youk Time. If you've never read it, highly recommend it.
- [36:21]
Jenna Dunay
I've actually he pops up on my like TikTok and oh, he's gotten so.
- [36:25]
Kevin St. Clergy
Aggressive on social media so much.
- [36:28]
Jenna Dunay
Yeah, I Literally was watching this stuff last night.
- [36:30]
Kevin St. Clergy
Trust me, get his book, I'll talk. I'd love to hear from you after you read it. Because most of the entrepreneurs I turn on, we've had him on our mastermind groups, I think three times and it just blows people away. He even did a virtual coaching for three or four business owners. We were all crying. He's a great coach. But anyway, his five contacts are just reach out to five people. Because a lot of times when we say reach out, they're like, what do you mean? It's going on social media, it's connecting with old connections that you once had. And a lot of times it's just checking in, how are you doing? Just nothing going on. I haven't talked to you in a while. Let's get together, let's schedule a lunch or a zoom call and catch up. Yeah, but a lot of times I'm having, I cold call it a little bit and I cyber stalk them. So it takes about 30 minutes to an hour per day. I have to block out the time. Don't forget everybody. What gets scheduled, gets done. And now that's non negotiable. Like he won't allow us to ask questions on the coaching calls if we haven't done these five things every day. And one of them is that so. And it's just sometimes just reaching out on people on LinkedIn and saying, Hey, I think we might have a lot in common. I'm just curious to what you do and would learn a lot about you because is I may have some people to refer to you.
- [37:33]
Jenna Dunay
What you did there at the very end is really interesting. It's about what value you can bring to them, not just what they can bring to you.
- [37:38]
Kevin St. Clergy
Yeah, it's about them. And that's why I always encourage people listen when you connect with people because a lot of times in some of the fields that I've taught in physician marketing is a big one. They're scared to death. They get referrals from physicians, they don't know what to say when they get there. And it's just, I think the same works in business. I encourage them to go look when you're talking to somebody, say, you know, where are you from? Get to know them. What do you like to do when you're not at work? But then get into, well, who's your ideal client or patient? Or how can I help you the most? And you know, who should I stay away from? And I guarantee if you focus the conversation on them first for at least five minutes. Eventually they're going to say, well, how can I help you? Yes, and what's your ideal client? And if you just come across as genuine and sincere. I found those calls to go really well. That's why I had to stop, because he was encouraged. He's like, you got to do it. Get ahead of this. I'm like, but I'm not ready. I'm still in the developmental stage of the book. You know, I'm still arguing with my editor, and she's still mad at me. But I'm telling you, do it. It will make a significant difference. I don't care what you do or who you are. Yeah, just checking in with people.
- [38:34]
Jenna Dunay
I totally agree. What I usually tell people is if you're the person that's willing to be rejected, you're going to have more opportunities in your life. And so, meaning if you're the one reaching out and you're okay, if that person doesn't respond to you, you're going to have infinitely more opportunities coming your way than the person that's too scared because they don't want to get ghosted. Well, what's the worst that's going to happen? Someone's like, like, don't contact me. Or, like, decline. That's the worst that's gonna happen. So I actually am very similar. So I don't do five every single day, but I have, like, a list of people that I'm constantly trying to connect with. And I will actually kind of sit in the morning and think through, like, who do I wanna reach out to that I already know that, like, pops into my brain. And if that person pops into my brain, I'll send them a quick text. Hey, how's it going? What's going on? And so it feels a little bit more organic and less, like, forced. Like, I'm only reaching out when I need something. So that's why I think a lot of people get frustrated with. With networking, because they feel like. Because they only do it when they need something. That's a lot of job seekers. That's a huge problem. Because they're like, I hate networking. Well, I'm saying, well, you only do it whenever you need a job, so that's a problem. And so I'm a huge fan of networking. LinkedIn's obviously a really great place for it. I find that whoever you want to network, you can literally search for their title and you can find those people to network with. I would also recommend that if. If you want the opportunity, there's kind of two different strategies That I use, I have one is called the Brunch Club. And this is something that I did last year before I got pregnant with my second, because I just don't have capacity right now to do this. But if you want to meet a lot of people in person and have fun doing it, you create what's called the Brunch Club. And you invite three different people from three different areas of your life. And they. The only requirement to them coming to the brunch is that they have to bring a friend from their life.
- [40:16]
Kevin St. Clergy
Oh, I love it.
- [40:17]
Jenna Dunay
And so you're meeting, you're getting to reconnect with people that you know, whether they're acquaintances or deep friendships. And then you get to meet all of their friends that they have, and then you never know what's going to happen. And so those have been actually some really great, rich relationships. I moved to Nashville in 2017 from New York City. I knew nobody, and I started a thing called the Breakfast Club. Very similar idea. Wasn't as structured at that time. But some of those people that I met are still people that they were at my wedding when I got married. Like, they're just really great people. I still work with a lot of them. They're business colleagues. And so that's like one very practical thing that you can do. And then the other way that I look at networking is kind of in four different buckets. Specifically, if you're a person that is looking for a job, because that's most relevant to what we're talking about today is you should first, friends and family. Leverage your friends and family connections to be like, hey, I am. I'm trying to do this thing, or I'm trying to launch this business, or I'm trying to find the job. Like, leverage your friends and family. Do you happen to know anybody in XYZ industry? I'm just looking to learn. Then from there you go to old colleagues, right? So you reach back out to old colleagues and you connect with those people. Then you go from there and you actually leverage your alumni network. So, like, if you have. If you are part of a university or something like that, actually going and looking on LinkedIn, you can go to LinkedIn to your university's page, they have a whole alumni page. And you can actually search for people in certain job titles and you can reach out and say, hey, we both went to XYZ University. You don't know who I am, but I'm interested in learning more about XYZ role or company. Would you be interested in hopping on A phone call and then the last one is completely cold. And so if you work your way up to the cold, it makes it a lot easier. So that's just another kind of quick tip recommendation for if you're networking averse, if you will. Yeah.
- [41:56]
Kevin St. Clergy
Because I think people get scared and they get social anxiety and they just avoid it and they just don't do it. Not everybody's like, my coach is like, just effing do it or I'm not working with you. It's like, fine, fine, I'll do it, I'll do it.
- [42:06]
Jenna Dunay
I still work with people even if they don't do it. But I'm like, your life would be a lot easier if you did do it.
- [42:11]
Kevin St. Clergy
Yeah. Well, what's your ideal client? Speaking of that, who do you like to work with the most? Do you work with individuals or do you work with companies?
- [42:17]
Jenna Dunay
So we do a little bit of both. So we work with individuals. So if you're a director, vp, C suite level person looking to make a strategic career move, we're a great fit for you. We have like a program that's really designed to do a lot of this work for you. So we do a lot of the marketing, the resume, the LinkedIn. We do all of it for you, actually find opportunities for you. So all of the hard stuff, that takes a lot of time, we take that off your plate. But then from a company side, yes. We love working with organizations that are probably going through either they're going through layoffs that are 50 or below, meaning like 50 people at a time or below. If you are looking to transition people on like a onesie twosie basis, we're actually really good for that as well. And so growing companies, startup companies that have to make some unfortunate decisions. We literally just onboarded one today that had to let go of a couple people just because of the nature of the business was going in a different direction and they wanted to do it gracefully. And so we take really a lot of pride in transitioning those people really well and helping them land on their feet.
- [43:15]
Kevin St. Clergy
Great. And what's the best way for them to get in touch?
- [43:18]
Jenna Dunay
Yeah, LinkedIn is the best place for them to get in touch. Or they can just email me@jennaecrutetheeemployer.com Jenna spelled J E N A.
- [43:26]
Kevin St. Clergy
Great. Well, you've clearly learned to invest in yourself. Last question, we'll wrap it up. But how do you invest in yourself? I like coaches and masterminds. I'm a huge reader. I asked this of every guest that's on the show. So I'm just curious, what do you do as far as personal development?
- [43:39]
Jenna Dunay
Yes. So I am a huge fan of podcasts these days. Again, I'm on the fly. I'm a mom of almost two, and so podcasting for me is a really great way for to learn as much as possible. I'm not in a mastermind right now, but I have done masterminds. I have invested in coaches in the past to help me kind of scale to that next level. It's been really, really impactful. I find that if you find a great coach that is going to be able to push you and hold you accountable, the ROI is infinite. And that's true for us working with clients, but also for me being invested in as well. So, yeah, there's been some that have helped me along the way, some that were bad, but some that have helped me along the way. But I would say right now, in this season of life podcast is just where I live and breathe.
- [44:22]
Kevin St. Clergy
Well, there's a chapter in my book where I talk about, listen, if you do sign up with a coach or a mastermind, here's how you get the most of it. It's actually teaching people personal responsibility, which would help your clients work better with you. Like, I find when people complain or they blame, which is a big topic of the book most of the time, sometimes they need to look in the mirror or they're just not aware of what's going on and what they're doing. Like, I'm not happy with that coach. It was like, well, do you show up prepared to the call? And here's my favorite answer. You heard it before. What do you mean, no? I'm going to take that as a no.
- [44:49]
Jenna Dunay
Yeah. You have to come in with your own agenda, because ownership. Ownership is a big part of what I talk about personally and just what we talk about with a lot of our clients.
- [44:58]
Kevin St. Clergy
Cool. Well, Jenna, thank you for being here. We're almost out of time. You and I could talk for hours on end. I'm definitely would love to have you back on the show.
- [45:04]
Jenna Dunay
Thank you.
- [45:05]
Kevin St. Clergy
But I'm going to wrap it up. Is there anything else you want to leave the audience with before we go?
- [45:09]
Jenna Dunay
No, just an encouragement that if you have gone through a layoff, that that's not the end of your story. If you are, it actually could be a huge blessing. I've seen a lot of people who have totally transformed their careers and their lives out of a layoff, and it could actually be the best thing that ever happened to you. So I'll leave you with that great advice.
- [45:24]
Kevin St. Clergy
It's perfect. Well, thank you. We'll talk again soon.
- [45:27]
Jenna Dunay
Awesome.