← Beyond Blind Blaming
Beyond Blind Blaming
Mental Health Myths, Mindfulness Practice, and Personal Transformation | Dr. Erika Horwitz
00:38:23
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- [00:00]
A
I'm always talking about loving sales. So how to make people fall in love with sales or why? Actually, sales is a great expression of showing how much you love someone. And when I gave that talk to a group of people that were working in design, product creation, customer support, all the departments of the company were at this workshop and I show them why selling is actually an expression of love. Because you care enough about the person to present to them what is it that you offer. You understand them enough to appreciate the difference it's going to make in their life. You would have an imperative to make them make the decision to buy it, knowing that you're going to make their lives better off.
- [00:37]
B
Today I'm joined by Jason Mark Campbell. Jason's a best selling author, speaker and business leader known for pioneering a new approach to sales, one rooted in integrity, human connection and impact. He's the author of Selling with Love, Earn with integrity and expand your impact, a book that challenges the traditional view of sales and reframes it as an act of service and transformation. And just a side note, I loved it. Jason has spent years at mindbody and personal growth powerhouse mindvalley where he helped launch million dollar programs, worked with world class thought leaders and produced large scale transformational events.
- [01:11]
A
At the end of the day, if there is one mindset you should have is if you just give a fuck about the people you're selling to. I think that's the most visceral way I can explain it. Like my whole thing around selling with love is really just caring for the person on the other side. And if you think of that as a scale of doing this with multiple clients, working with your sales team, it's like you could use AI, but then you're like, how is this if I care about the person, how am I designing the process that shows that I actually care about the person? And if you have that as the foundational mindset, you will take the right actions, you will seek the right counsel, you will, and people will be felt like they've been treated with respect and want to do business with you.
- [02:04]
B
Welcome to Beyond Blind Blaming. This is the place where we explore how easily hidden truths can hold us back, trapping us in cycles of frustration and blame, often without even realizing what's truly stopping us. Each week I'm joined by experts and professionals who share their journey of taking back control of their story, overcoming hidden challenges, and discover how to stop blind blaming from dictating their outcomes. The insights you're about to gain will help you see beyond your current limitations, find the Courage to seek new perspectives and ultimately live a life that's both purposeful and powerful. So if you're ready to break free from blind blaming and discover what's possible, you'll definitely want to listen to my next guest. I'm your host, Kevin St. Clergy and today I'm joined by Jason Mark Campbell. Jason's a best selling author, speaker and business leader known for pioneering a new approach to sales, one rooted in integrity, human connection and impact. He's the author of Selling with Love, Earn with Integrity and Expand you'd impact, a book that challenges the traditional view of sales and reframes it as an act of service and transformation. And just a side note, I loved it. Jason has spent years at mindbody and personal growth powerhouse mindvalley where he helped launch million dollar programs, worked with world thought leaders and produce large scale transformational events. Today he's the general manager of Soma Breath and the host of the Jason Mark Campbell podcast. With millions of downloads and hundreds of interviews with top leaders in business, personal development and human performance. His mission is simple but powerful. To help entrepreneurs and organizations fall in love with sales by seeing it not as manipulation, but a way to create value, build trust and make a positive impact in the world. I'm excited to have him. Jason, welcome to the show.
- [03:42]
A
Kevin, it's a pleasure to be here. I'm very excited about the conversation.
- [03:46]
B
Me too. Well, let's start with your journey. What led you to reframe sales from something that people avoid or as I've always said, they feel like it's a four letter word, a bad word, into something they can actually fall in love with?
- [03:57]
A
You know, I've heard also about your own journey and I thought there was a bit of a parallel because I found myself aiming towards making a talk that could potentially make it to the TEDx stage. And it was during a development event that we were doing at a company I was working for, Mind Valley. We were inviting somebody to come and help teach on public speaking. And at the time everybody was going to be given a five minute slot to just share on a topic. They thought they would be interesting for everybody else and be evaluated on their skills in public speaking. And I just remember trying to find, okay, well what's an idea I could talk about? And it just came to me because in every organization I worked with, people would be like, oh yeah, Jason, he loves selling. He loves selling all the time. They would always say like, oh, you could sell ice to. We have to be proper. So I'll say Northern Native Americans And I would always reply saying, like, well, only if they need it. Because if they don't need it, there's no point in selling something that somebody doesn't need. And I would always be talking about sales. We would be in launch meetings or marketing meetings, and I'd be like, oh my God, do you know how much epic it would be if we make that kind of money? Because that we've just transforms people. Live at a measurable amount. And people will be thinking, you're kind of weird on how obsessed you are around sales. So when it came time to put a topic together for the talk, I was like, well, I'm always talking about loving sales. So how to make people fall in love with sales or why? Actually, sales is a great expression of showing how much you love someone. And when I gave that talk to a group of people that were working in design, product creation, customer support, all the departments of the company were at this workshop. And I show them why selling is actually an expression of love. Because you care enough about the person to present to them what is it that you offer. You understand them enough to appreciate the difference it's going to make in their life. You would have an imperative to make them make the decision to buy it, knowing that you're going to make their lives better off. And the people just went, oh my God, I've never thought of sales that way. And that was kind of the first clue that perhaps I should pull on the string a little more. And lo and behold, I started preparing for a talk to make this more formal. I started thinking I to take these concepts and put them in a medium that I think is the most impactful medium. If you want an idea to be set in stone and for people to be able to tangibly take it and survive the test of time, books are the best medium. And quite frankly, I appreciated the process of writing the book because I got to really refine the ideas, see how it resonates, bring it in front of people. And now I'm always blessed and honored when I hear stories of people that have taken the concepts I've put down and it's changed their results as a sales representative. It's changed how they approach sales as an organization. And for people who always thought that being a salesperson was a yucky word, and now they're like, wow. Because I don't have those blocks around labeling sales so easily. I can go out and sell so easily because I realized it's an act of service. And now I'm actually in line with everything I speak, and I don't have that resistance in the way. So I hope that answers your question.
- [06:57]
B
It does. I think that all great salespeople have one thing in common. They just want to help people. You agree with that?
- [07:03]
A
I do. Because you said all great salespeople, but not all salespeople.
- [07:07]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [07:07]
A
I think that nuance is really important. And, you know, oftentimes the. The. The fact of the matter is, is that there's just a lot of salespeople, period, very less great salespeople. And our interactions with a average pool of salespeople might not be you interacting with the great ones. So you might have seen the bad techniques in practice. And the biggest pain of that is the good people now start resisting sales when they should be the ones that should be doing it, because they are the greats.
- [07:35]
B
I agree. And I think sometimes in our effort to not be that guy, the bad salesperson, that we end up being more like them than we know.
- [07:43]
A
Yeah.
- [07:44]
B
I had a guest on a podcast about a year ago, and, and she was in sales, and she was like, well, tell me what some of the biggest fears are in some of the. The businesses you work with. I was like, well, I don't think they want to be that guy, but some of these. These younger salespeople, when they get into it and they went to school for medical stuff, are. Are scared they're going to talk somebody into something that they don't want to do. And she started laughing, and she's like, really? You think you're that good? And then I started laughing. It's like, you're not going to talk somebody into being that good. You're just scared you're going to be that guy. And in your effort to do that, you actually turn into that guy without even realizing it. And then they don't take action and they don't get the help that you're trying to offer. Which I thought was a very interesting perspective.
- [08:20]
A
Well, you know, what's very interesting is for somebody who has the resistance to learning about sales will often be much more obsessed with product, which means they don't listen as much to the client that's in front of them. And so in an effort of them saying, like, I don't want to be that salesy person, if there's someone that comes and asks them about their product or service that might be the ones to rant the most about the product, the features, and not pay attention to what the client actually wants. And they'll ramble, they'll talk a lot, and Then the client will be like, oh my God, I met this salesperson. They just couldn't stop talking about the product. It was so annoying. And then, da da, you became that guy.
- [08:53]
B
That's right.
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A
And so yes, it's very interesting.
- [08:57]
B
Well, in your book you talk. I'm not going to give away the book because I want people to read it. But you spent years at mindvalley working with top thought leaders about launching major programs. And I love the story of how you started at one price pointing and got them to have more value. Because one of the first things that I'll do when I start working with an organization is advise them to raise their prices and I don't care where they're at. And that was one of my favorite parts about your mindvalley story. What did that experience teach you about what really drives connection conversion sales and how price point isn't as important as some people might think.
- [09:30]
A
You know the default. You'll always want to think of discounting when things aren't going well. And if your instinct is to discount is because you haven't taken the time to study the difference you make in people's lives. Right. It's, it's actually a bit of a lazy way of making your sale. But if you take a step back and start understanding, hey, if I actually think of raising my prices, you ask much more abundant questions. So say you're going to be doubling your prices or lower. Imagine it being a ten times more expensive. I would assume anybody in the right mind and that actually cares about what they're doing and the reputation they have in the world wouldn't just raise the price without changing exactly what they're selling. They'd start becoming much more creative of what needs to be in place for that product to be worth that price. And so you have to go to the drawing board thinking, okay, do I need to change the features? Do I need to change who I'm selling to? And understanding that no two buyers value what you're selling at the same price. And so oftentimes the instinct to discount actually is counterintuitive to what you should truly do to really raise the value. Because when you start discounting, you start losing faith in the value you provide in your product, which brings down your self confidence. And if you're in a sales role and you don't believe in what you're selling, that's going to make a bigger difference than whatever discount you provide or it changes to the exact price. It's going to be your own conviction of truly Knowing what value this is going to give to the person and selling it with conviction. So the counterintuitive, just like you suggest to your clients, is raise the price. Think of, okay, now that the price, now the stakes are higher. Are you ready to sell it at this higher price? If not, what needs to be in place for you to be ready to sell it at this higher price? Do you have to do better discovery? Do you have to go talk to your past clients and understand the difference it makes to create the case studies and see, oh, this actually starts stacking at a right value? Am I talking to the completely wrong people that makes it so that, oh, they can only afford that price point? It has anything to do with your product has everything to do with the situation they're in. And now it's in this sense of desperation. We're trying to get people that aren't a fit to buy the product. So you bring down the price. It's already a compatibility issue. It might be better to go back to the drawing board. And if you do want to address that market, it's not about reducing the price of your product. You might have a completely different product. You need to offer these people that matches where they are. But oftentimes it's not worth the effort as opposed to raising the price and really nailing the value.
- [11:54]
B
I love that. That's great advice. Absolutely. Well, let's get into some of the blind blaming and sales mindset stuff that we talked about when I was a guest on your show. And business people often say, I don't like selling or sales just isn't my thing. How does blind blaming show up in the way people approach sales from what you've learned?
- [12:13]
A
Well, I think one of the things is if you discredit yourself from the possibility of actually being good at sales, I think is probably one of the skills that you might be completely blind to, especially if you're a very, you know, product oriented person. The best one is I'm just so, like, I care so much about the customer. I wouldn't be able to go in sales because I can't be that person who talks slick and lies. And it's like, where did you get these beliefs? Sorry, this is not the elements of someone that makes a good sale. So I would say the biggest blind spot for particularly founders and owners is the block that's in their mind that sales has never been a thing that I could do. And realizing we already do it naturally for everything. Like, if you're still alive, you've mastered sales in Some way because you've gotten food on the table in some way. And that would have involved you getting a job, you talking to people that are supporting you, you've made friends, you've sold. Like, it's just such a fundamental nature of what we are as humans. We're a tribal species. We work together. And if you're going to have any conversation with anybod, sales will play a part of it. And so if you start shifting the belief of you actually being someone that can sell, you start realizing you can play a much better role. Not. And honestly, it's not even just you picking up the phone and making sales, but you start realizing that you can play a beautiful role in supporting your team. Like, anybody who's decided to work for you has accepted a sales transaction with you. They've looked at a contract and decided to be employed by you. Now, you don't feel like it's a sale because you're paying money, but there's an energy exchange that happens with everybody you hire. Thus it is a sales process. And so you've got a whole team. You've brought them on. They decided to join into your vision, join into what you're trying to accomplish, and trust you as an individual. If you didn't have any of the sales blocks, you might embrace this better and realize that it's a fundamental activity you can do as a leader to get people to rally around the vision, put in the effort there, and show the love for the people who work with you. And if you have a whole sales team, if you're being someone that's not loving the sales team, you're trying to put them off at the side because you have sales blocks. They're probably underperforming as a sales team because they're not seeing their leadership respect the work that they do. Do you imagine you work in an organization and the leadership team doesn't appreciate the fact that you probably bring 80% of the revenue? And they're like, oh, I hate salespeople. I hate that we have to have salespeople. I wish the sales would happen themselves. We're going to tolerate you guys as you go out and make company, actually work and pay the salaries of everyone. What a toxic relationship that would be. So that might be the biggest blind spot, I would say, is look at your mindset around sales. And if you have blocks around it, what ripple effects is it creating in your organizational culture in the way that you retain, attract, motivate your team? And hey, if there is a customer that comes across and you have an opportunity to sell with them. Know that you can do it because you beautifully appreciate human psychology, want to serve, care enough to understand them and put your product in front of them, of them.
- [15:19]
B
That's great. So when someone struggles to close deals or attract clients, how often is the real issue internal, like belief, confidence or mindset that we've talked about so far rather than external factors? And how quickly do you think somebody blames different things when they're not closing a deal instead of looking, say, at their process like, oh, our prices are too high or I very rarely hear salespeople say our prices are too low or the market's not right or the economy sucks. Any thoughts there?
- [15:47]
A
There's wars going on, oil prices are gone, we're going into a recession. These are all the things that are probably at the top of mind for a lot of organization. And sales reps aren't immune to that. And to be honest, even as someone who's written this book, I'm not immune to looking at the wrong thing to fix some of the things that are core. It fascinates me when I comfortably will look at some sort of technology or some market condition and to resolve the bringing the reality as to why the results are the way they are. And you know, I had a beautiful guest that came on my show which she picked up a copy of the book, applied the principles of selling with love, and from a one month to the next month was able to get four times more sales because she shifted one thing. It was her relationship with sales. It was the mindset around sales. And like, imagine this, Kevin, if you could, if I brought you a tool that says, look, I have this tool and AI, let's call it AI tool because everybody loves AI tools, right? If I told you I have an AI tool that in one month I could get one salesperson to do four times more sales and it costs you 15. And all you'll need to do is get your Salesperson to dedicate 5 hours to understand this AI tool and your sales will quadruple. You'd be like, where do I find this tool? I'll install it in my company immediately. And then I'd be like, I just said one little lie. It wasn't an AI tool. It was actually a piece of information that shifted your mindset and it creates the same results. And this is a place I've debated so many times. Where is mindset overrated? Because I've interviewed so many people, especially in personal growth mindset, it's all about your mindset. Oh, all you need to do is mind. You don't believe enough. And. And it's like you even seen it in your story where you thought that it was just you didn't have an attitude. But what happens is it's often even underrated because the energy that you show up to on a sales call dictates so much more of the results you're going to get than probably anything else. And I realized that if you do put the work into the mindset, I got exhausted of hearing mindset all the time. I even wrote, I had an episode where we had a hypothesis. It's overrated. And, gosh, the conclusion we came at the end was that it's underrated. So for anybody who feels exhausted hearing people remind them about mindset all the time, I would say perhaps you haven't decided to stop criticizing it, embrace the concepts a little more and see what results happen in your sales environment. And I'll say this for sales, the reason I see so many people in sales embrace personal growth in such a powerful way is what a blessing it is to be in sales where you can measure the impact of what action you've taken in such a short amount of time that you can measurably see what was the root cause that caused the difference. If you're working in a corporate job and you don't get a salary review for the next six months, you're going to do a lot of things in six months and wonder, where did I make a change that really turned me into an A player? It's not as tangible as I'm going to change my relationship with sales. I'm going to get on the phone and see how that impacts my results. And in the next month, you can quadruple your results. To me, that's a blessing. And I think it's a gift for people in sales to see the power of the mindset. And for anybody else who's still doubting, see what happens if you get your salespeople to change their mindset, and maybe you'll be inclined to do the same.
- [19:05]
B
Well, how you do anything is how you do everything. So I think that's what most great leaders do. Back to great versus poor leaders. I like what you said there, because mindset, I think, is underrated. I'm with you. Every single coaching program that we've put together, we make. I mean, our whole. Our whole program is called M3 mastery, mindset, margins, momentum. So mindset's very important. I believe that if you build the business owner that builds the business, you'll be more successful. And for those of you who are leading a sales team, if you build the salesperson that makes the sales, you'll be much more successful. And we've put together sales trainings in the past and focused on mindset for the first three or four. And it's interesting because people are like, I skipped those. We're like, okay, well, you can't get certified if you don't go watch the first four. And then once we get them to go back and do it, we actually included in our sales process for the medical people that we're training. I was like, look, you've got to focus on the mindset. You've got something holding you back. You've got a belief lid. You've got a certain thing where you're too focused on the product instead of helping the patient or the person. So it's kind of some of the same things you've been saying. So what do you think is the biggest misconception that people have about sales that keeps them stuck or resistant?
- [20:13]
A
Well, there's all of the media around what sales should look like. You know, I can watch TV and see what a salesperson is portrayed as. And you'll see this slick, you know, combat hair, fast talking. You'll think you're in an episode of Suits and you gotta be this high powered lawyer, sales type of person. And you're like, oh, I'm not like that. Thus I cannot be a salesperson. And you'll look at what is an example of top tier sales. And then you think watching the Wolf of Wall street is educating you on how to be a great salesperson. Look, is it good to have some lines that can help, you know, book an appointment? Learning processes that you have an understanding that if you follow that process, it makes you more effective in, you know, doing a good discovery and taking a person towards an action. Of course, those are really, really good. What I think is a disservice to anybody who's considering going into sales is if I had a movie around Bob the incredible, you know, sales rep for a manufacturing company that, you know, works with small businesses that want to manufacture product. And he spends his days, like on the call with clients and he's really asking them a lot of questions and, you know, making sure that it's a right fit. And then they have this long sales process writing contract. And you're like 20 minutes into this movie and you're like, this is a really boring movie. Hollywood doesn't want to produce that. And so A lot of cases of great salesmanship are just not making for exciting television. And so you don't see a lot of those examples and you start feeling that maybe my way of selling has been a very successful way of selling. I just never saw the example of it. So I think there's a big lack of role models and you know, you do a lot of there. There's so many great things that come out of sales that is like, oh, did you know that introverts are often more effective in sales? And people are like, what? I only see this loud talking guy that's selling used car as my example of what a salesperson. What do you mean an introverted salesperson? Well, put yourself in the shoes of being a consumer and you might start getting the example because nobody wants to be sold to. Everybody hates that salesy vibe that you get from somebody who's got commission breath. And so what does a good sales interaction look like? Well, imagine someone coming to you saying, hey, I'm here to just answer any of the questions. Whether you buy or not is going to be your choice. But if I can find out more about what you're looking to achieve, we'll see if this is a fit. If it's not, I'll maybe recommend you the right path. And if it is, then I'll show you the ways to take the next step. So tell me about what you're. And then the person just listens to you intent to ask you pointed questions, make you have reactions that are sort of like, oh, I never thought about it that way. Shout out to challenger sale. And you're like, wow, I've never felt somebody actually cared, took the time, understood me. And then at the end there was no pressure. But you're the one who was like, no, this looks like it's a right fit, I'd like to buy it. And you do. And you start realizing, would you be able to sell in a way that's caring, that's listening, that actually wants to help people? Would you have those qualities within you? Ding, ding, ding. You might have the qualities of being a good salesperson. And it has nothing to do with the caricatures you've seen before.
- [23:20]
B
It's interesting when we shifted to a two sales call, which we talked about earlier process, we had our discovery call, then we had our working call. We were amazed at how many people just said, you know, thank you for actually taking the time to get to know me and know my business and my goals and my challenges. Nobody's done that. Usually they just throw up a PowerPoint and start pitching me on what they can do and, and pointing out all the things I've been doing wrong. And you guys really took the time to get to know me, to tell me if you thought you could help me.
- [23:46]
A
Yeah, it changes the dynamics. And you know, for. It's not for every business that they need a two step sales, but for most people that are selling something that's quite expensive, it's a great system. Right. Because the discovery is often the thing that gets rushed. If you only have a small time slot to go through discovery and sales, you often will shorten the discovery so that you can get to the end of the call before you jump on the next one. So I think it's a beautiful initiative. It makes a lot of sense, especially if you're selling things that is worth having that two step process. And again, like at the end of the day, if there is one mindset you should have is if you just give a fuck about the people you're selling to. I think that's the most visceral way I can explain it. Like my whole thing around selling with love is really just caring for the person on the other side. And if you think of that as a scale of doing this with multiple clients, working with your sales team, it's like you could use AI, but then you're like, how is this if I care about the person, how am I designing the process that shows that I actually care about the person? And if you have that as the foundational mindset, you will take the right actions, you will seek the right counsel, and people will be felt like they've been treated with respect and want to do business with you. And I would say this one more thing. In the age of AI, where we're having a huge backlash around everything, AI, your powers to just care and do a little bit more human touch around your processes will go so far while everyone else is just trying to make sure that they can do everything in their power not to talk to the
- [25:22]
B
customer and that funny, gosh, we developed this AI agent, we won't have to do anything, we won't have to hire these people, we can cut back and the. That's what people really want. So can you give some examples of what you just talked about? Like, how can we go back if we're getting away from AI? What are some personal touches, developing relationships you've already mentioned? What else can they do, do you think? Couple of examples.
- [25:43]
A
I'll tell you one of the things I'm seeing that is Very tempting right now and maybe some better ways to consider it. You know, there are some voice AI you could do to confirm appointments. And I think this is an experiment you've even played with. And it's something I've been looking at. I have my, my shareholder in the company is like, look, I'm seeing these companies that are doing the AI. Look how good it looks, look how great it sounds. And I'm like, it's just like chat GPT where it's like, it gives you amazing answers and for some reason there's something missing, might be a soul. And, and then I'm thinking on the receiving end, like imagine that you just booked an appointment with a company that says they're going to do like a vision and flow call. That's the thing we do in the current company. And the first touch point you have is not even a human individual wants to confirm your appointment. And AI bot has automated. It feels like I'm being pushed down a factory line and I'm like, hold on, what if I actually would just. Let's say you don't have the staff availability to have someone that's a setter. That's important. Let's say you don't want to do that is like, okay, well could I at least bring them into a group session where they can have a human touch point in one to many. If I really can't have it so that it's individually done by somebody instead of the AI tool, what would be the experience which is a preparation call and then you start implementing that. We did this in the company where when people were resisting booking an appointment, we said join a group call where you can get a lot more information. And then here's the interesting thing we noticed for anybody who showed up for that group call, they were booking appointments and showing up for them, why they had a human interaction happen first. And so I was like, ah, something great's happening here. Maybe we want to do a bit more of that. But quite frankly, I know that when you confirm the appointments with a human is going to be the highest leverage thing I can do the show up rates. So perhaps resisting the AI urge and then doing it really manually when it comes to ways you want to maybe use AI where there already is a bit of a distance, quick answers, quick responses, quick inquiries, things that can come through a chatbot. Yeah, there's tons of benefits there to lower volume. But making sure there's always an option to talk to a human might go a long way for getting people to be like Oh, I can speak to someone. This is great.
- [27:52]
B
Yeah. And then I would track how much they actually do that because we've been shocked when we've done that in the past and used it as a metric and we ended up getting rid of the AI bot in a couple of situations. So different business models. As you said before, I would track it to see how many people actually click. I want to talk to human being because I think people are getting sick already of AI and you can tell I think it's going to get better. I mean, we've got some AI agents that go out and make outbound calls that sound like a real person, even with a southern accent that we just added. It's amazing technology and some of the software that we, we offer some of the businesses we work with and it's, it's, it's there. But I still think people can tell, especially if they get on the phone, they can see you on a zoom call and they see that it's a real person. It makes a difference.
- [28:33]
A
I mean, I could do this whole interview as a replacement AI Jason that include that knows my material and answers these questions. Like we, we've seen that happen. And look again, it's so interesting because I had one client. I love jumping on sales calls regularly because that's puts me in touch with clients and to me, getting a pulse of the human on the other side is the best thing I can get as a manager. I take a sales call this week and I'm about to sell the person and I'm telling her, one of the cool things we just did is redo one of our courses. Like they're buying a course. We've just redid all the videos, the content. We brought a learning experience designer. We spent four months to really deliver something that's not just information dumping, but rather training people with a skill set. And so I'm talking to this individual and I said, listen, one of the cool things that you're going to get is the full upgrade of the course that we just did is going to be included with no price change. So the moment you sign up, the new course will be added to you next week. So this is the perfect time to do it. And her first response to that was, oh, did you guys just all redo it with AI videos? And I'm like, no, we spent so much time creating. And then she goes on, said, I've seen the founder shared one video where they were on social media where they were using AI and creating account. She was like, you just said, that and it made me terrified that I was going to go through an entirely AI generated video course. And if you would have told me that, I wouldn't have bought.
- [29:54]
B
Oh, interesting.
- [29:54]
A
And so be very careful where you want to use the AI because it's fantastic. I'm. Oh my God. I'll tell you one beautiful use case that I have, which I would highly encourage anybody who has to help demonstrate value is I use an AI tool. After a conversation I had with somebody, I had this entire website built for that individual based on all the things we discussed with a revenue calculator based on the plans they had with the product I was selling them. And there was a. And then she even told me the idea of the brand she wanted to create, which was Soul Fire breathing. And I created the entire website with a mock up of what potentially her brand could look like, which was like. Like, this is a tailored experience for you. Soul Fryer Breathing. This is what you look. This is the product I recommend. This is the mentor I told you to recommend with. This is how much you could make if you're doing retreat. The whole website was created within 20 minutes. And I sent this to them after the call as a moment of delight and they went, whoa. I've future paced myself of what it would look like if I go down that path. Would I use AI for that? Hell yeah. But would I have sent her a voice note from an AI saying hi, we've created this generated like no, there was a human that was enhanced with AI, not the replacement of human. Which I think is the key distinction we might want to look into.
- [31:15]
B
I love it. Well, how important do you think is cold calling in what you teach?
- [31:20]
A
It depends on the industry and in my case, because a lot of it is some B2B a B2C inquiries. I'm not as much about cold calling as much as I'm with reverse prospecting. And that's kind of what I got raised on. I mean, my first time in sales was actually in real estate and it was booking appointments for realtors. And it came from people going to a website or responding to direct mail that allowed them to either get a list of hot properties or to get a home evaluation online. And the moment that they would book that form, I would call them within 15 minutes to book an appointment. And I think that's something that's much more powerful than cold calling is just when somebody takes an action opts in and you immediately get to interact with them makes it that you have much more fruitful conversations, especially if you're dealing with consumers. Because here, for me, it's like somebody's shown an interest in becoming a breathwork instructor. I wouldn't just grab a phone book and start trying to get people to become breathwork instructors. Obviously not the right way. But in B2B, I think that there's a resurgence of cold calling, particularly the fact that nobody else is really doing it. So everyone's trying to find these automated ways to generate leads and online, and there's. You need to have your whole ecosystem there. But if business is low and you decide to go into a specific industry and do a campaign of calling all these businesses, trying to just get at least some new prospects through, there's definitely a human element and there's a resurgence. I'm even seeing a lot of people educating on cold calling and doing it in ways that are funny, interesting, and I think that's beautiful to see. So, yeah, there is a lot of cold calling that can be done. I'm seeing, obviously there's tools that can do it in an automated way because you got to justify the volume and the time, right? And unless you have a really set list of leads, phone numbers that, you know, there's tools that allow you to scrape a lot of, I think Apollo is one of the tools you can use that gives you some very targeted types of people you can contact. I would say if you are cold calling, do it in a campaign that's very specific so that when you do cold call, you have a higher hit rate. So say you're doing. You're reaching out to business owners in the personal development field who are struggling with getting more leads, then you can probably find. If you can find a list of companies that fit that demographic and you're reaching out to them saying, hey, we're currently working with personal development companies that are struggling with leads. It's probably going to hit the mark more than just cold calling. Any company saying, I can get you more leads, I love it.
- [33:47]
B
Well, that leads into kind of a next the. You called it reverse cold calling. How important is video, do you think, in sales today? Do you think salespeople should be more on video talking about what they sell?
- [33:58]
A
I'm actually debated on that. So naturally, on a lot of calls, we are doing them on Zoom, but I haven't seen substantial evidence that proves that being on a zoom is leaps and bounds more effective than just being on the phone. I'll tell you one downside about being on zoom is people don't feel comfortable given their credit card information on a Zoom Call, really, on a telephone, it's much more comfortable because you're recording the call and it's on digital. It's not the same as being on the phone. Right. So I was raised in a generation that did a lot of telephone sales, and I do appreciate that. I think. Yeah, I mean, that's me, too.
- [34:32]
B
Oh, my. I dreaded. Oh, God. When they. Oh, now I'm gonna get on my soapbox here real quick. But when. When Covid happened and our team, like, we gotta do Zoom calls, I'm. I dreaded it because, honestly, I'd do my workouts at lunch, and then I'd come, and I could just look like crap, and I could be on the phone doing my thing. And when we went to Zoom Calls, you always have to be on. You know, you always have to look good. And it. There was a Zoom fatigue thing that I suffered from. It was. Yeah. And now I like it because it's so much better when you can see their face. And I've. I've gotten more used to it. But me a good. What is it six years later to where I'm like, okay, but I still. There's some clients that I have that are old school like you. And I was like, hey, I'm going to give you the choice on our coaching calls. Would you rather do Zoom, or would you rather do phone calls? And I'm pretty. It's about 20% of the time. If they're older like me, they'll say, you know what? I'd love to do conference calls. I miss them. So, yeah.
- [35:21]
A
So look, I. Look, I am on Zoom. So the video gives you a lot more information, but I don't know. There's a part of the dance of sales that makes it so that if there's still an element of mystery, it kind of just elevates the experience. So. So, yeah, you don't know what they look like. You only get to focus on your voice. You get to focus on what you're saying. And I feel like I become much more intent on listening as opposed to being distracted to what I'm looking at. So I have a preference for phone, but I know how much more effective it is if you get more body language information on the sales call.
- [35:55]
B
Well, one of the final thoughts I always like to ask every guest that I have, it's the same question. You've clearly invested in yourself over the years, and you like to learn, but what are your favorite ways to do that? Is it. It reading podcasts? Mastermind coaches? Do you have A coach. What, what are some ways that you've invested in yourself?
- [36:10]
A
Yeah, well, taking a leaf from your own concepts is I think the best investment that I do is in my health. And so I'm always investing into eating better, working out regularly, keeping my mental state sharp and focused by taking care of myself first. So that's the number one investment. The biggest gift that I have as somebody who has a podcast and I get to bring incredible guests such as yourself on the show, is my best way of learning is being able to interact directly with authors of amazing literature and concepts that are the most relevant to me. And so I have my little cheat code, which is I bring the knowledge that I need on my show and I get to discover more, pull on those threads and then that gives me the impetus as to where do I want to pull the string further. And I'll grab the books, I'll read the books from the authors that do come through. And aside from that, I'm just very blessed being surrounded by a lot of people that can challenge me. I don't have an active coach, I don't have an active mastermind that I'm on, but oftentimes when I get into conversations with incredible guests, we have follow up conversation and we build a bit of a good relationship where we can discuss these problems. And that has led to me acquiring new clients or me getting mentorship through them and buying their products and services in the process as well.
- [37:20]
B
I love it. Well, Jason, if somebody wants to get in touch with you, what's the best way to get in touch and where can they get your book?
- [37:24]
A
Yeah, so the best thing is if you want to grab a copy of Selling with Love, you can find@sellingwithlove.com Amazon is the best place to buy it it. And if you want to connect with me, the Instagram, the Facebook, any of the social medias is an easy way to get in touch if there's any pressing question around sales that you wish to have handled. I'm always an open book, but if you want to go deep into the concept, you got to get the book.
- [37:44]
B
Great. No, I love it. I always have people lead with. We lead with the book as well. So sellingwithlove.com that's where your podcast is as well, where people can get access to that as well. And I'm sure I know it's on the major podcasting platforms and we'll make sure that we put that in the show notes below with links to eat so people can get to those quickly. Well, thank you for being here, my friend. I'm really looking forward to talking again. I'm sure we're gonna have a nice time, and hopefully we'll have you back on the show someday. Thanks again.
- [38:08]
A
It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.