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Beyond Blind Blaming
Mental Strength Expert, Amy Morin: How to Conquer Life’s Toughest Struggles and Thrive
00:48:59
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- [00:01]
A
How do you go through dark times and come out on the other side and not feel like you're broken or that you're incredibly fragile?
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B
Amy Morin. She's a licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist, and internationally recognized expert on mental strength. Amy is the author of the best selling book 13 Things Mentally Strong People don't do, which has been translated into more than 40 languages and read by millions around the world.
- [00:24]
A
On the three year anniversary of the day that my mom died, my 26 year old husband died of a heart attack. And it took years to really dig myself out and figure out what the next chapter of my life was gonna look like. But eventually I found a different job, I moved to a different house, I got remarried, and life was looking okay. And then my father in law was diagnosed with terminal cancer. We hear about mental toughness, but it's often discussed in terms of a Navy SEAL who has to suppress their emotions and push through at all cost. And that works great on the battlefield, but in real life, that's not what you want to do. And you really don't want to just get through life surviving it. You want to thrive. Mental strength is all about the choices that you make every single day. And there's three parts to it.
- [01:16]
B
Welcome to Beyond Blind Blaming. This is the place where we explore how easily hidden truths can hold us back, trapping us in cycles of frustration and blame, often without realizing what's truly stopping us. I'm your host, Kevin St. Clergy and today I'm joined by Amy Morin. She's a licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist, and internationally recognized expert on mental strength. Amy is the author of the best selling book 13 Things Mentally Strong People don't do, which I loved, which has been translated into more than 40 languages and read by millions around the world. Her work focuses on helping people overcome limiting beliefs, build resilience, and develop the mental toughness necessary for success in life and in business. Amy, welcome to the show.
- [01:59]
A
Thank you so much for having me.
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B
Well, as I said, your TED Talk, which I highly recommend people watch, sounds like a great thing that you did. And I couldn't believe it was nine years ago. You look exactly the same.
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A
Well, thank you. I know. I can't believe it's been nine years either. It's surreal to even think about at this point.
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B
Well, it sounds like you've dedicated your entire career to studying mental strength. What inspired you to focus on this and how did your journey lead you to write the book?
- [02:25]
A
Well, I was a therapist and so I thought, oh, I'm going to teach everybody in my office all these skills and things that I learned in college. But pretty early on I thought, ooh, all those things I learned in college are great in a textbook, but how do you apply them in real life? And I felt like I was doing people a disservice. But it all really became clear to me when my mom passed away when I was 23. She died suddenly and unexpectedly. And when I lost my mom, I thought, yeah, a lot of this stuff that I have in my textbook about what to do when you're in a really dark place doesn't really work as well as it does when it's on a piece of paper. So I started studying mental strength for myself because I wanted to know, how do you go through dark times and come out on the other side and not feel like you're broken or that you're incredibly fragile? And I would have a lot of therapy clients that were struggling, they'd been through something tough and they said, well, it's been 10 years, but I feel like I haven't even moved on. And one of the things I realized was, is that they had really bought into that notion that time heals. And they had just been waiting to feel better, but they hadn't done any of the work to help them work through the painful emotions. And I don't blame anybody because nobody teaches us this stuff. I don't know why they don't teach us in school. How do you deal with anxiety? How do you cope with sadness? What do you do when you face adversity? So started studying it from that perspective as a therapist that I really wanna know, what is it? If it's not the stuff I learned in the textbook, what is it that helps people get through tough times? And then on the three year anniversary of the day that my mom died, my 26 year old husband died of a heart attack. And I just thought, you know, how could this be possible? That here I am, I'm 26, I don't have my mom, I don't have my husband. I'm supposed to be a therapist who helps other people deal with their problems. And here I am studying mental strength. But then I was dealt this hand where hopefully all the stuff I've been learning and practicing actually works. Because now I need to apply it and I don't even, still don't even have the words. As a therapist and as an author, you'd think I'd have some words to describe that period in my life, but I don't. Other Than to. It was just a really dark, painful time where I had to figure out, what am I gonna do with my life? What's next? How do I get through this? And it just felt like everything was upside down and the two people I most wanted to talk to about it weren't there. And it took years to really dig myself out and figure out what the next chapter of my life was gonna look like. But eventually I found a different job, I moved to a different house, I got remarried, and life was looking okay. And then my father in law was diagnosed with terminal cancer. And I just thought, I just spent all these years grieving and now I'm about to lose somebody else. And I wrote myself a letter on one of my worst days about what mentally strong people don't do. And it was just meant to be a list for me of what not to do today. If you want to get through today, just don't do these things. And it was based on the stuff that I had been learning through my own research. And I decided to publish it online. And I thought if it helps somebody else, great. I thought like 50 people would read it, but 50 million people read it. One of them happened to be a literary agent who said, you should write a book. And I didn't even know what a literary agent was. And I said, well, thank you. But there's a backstory. Everybody was assuming I had written this list because I'd mastered it. Like MTV in Finland called and CNN in Mexico and I'm on tv and everybody's like, this is great, you're a therapist and you know not to do all these things. So I confided in my literary agent and I said, actually it's because I do all of these things and I don't know that I want to write a book and out myself because I'm a therapist and who's going to take me seriously if I say, actually I struggle with all of these things too? But I thought about it and decided ultimately, okay, if somebody invites you to write a book, it'd be kind of silly to say no. So I said, all right, I'll do it. So I wrote the book and now it's been over 10 years since I wrote the book. And so six books later, people are still asking a lot of questions about mental strength. And as long as people are asking, I'm happy to talk about it.
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B
Well, I'm glad you're here. It definitely fits into the blind blaming as we talked about before we started. But can you give us a good definition of mental strength. Maybe we start there.
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A
Yeah, that's a good place to start. Because a lot of people think it's about mental health. And they think, well, if I have depression, I'm not mentally strong, or if I'm struggling with anxiety, then I lack mental strength. But those things aren't true at all. It's more like if we talked about physical health and physical strength. Nobody doubts that you can go to the gym and lift weights to become physically strong, but you might still have high blood pressure. But that doesn't mean that you can't still work out and become physically stronger. Mental strength's the same. It's all about the choices that you make every single day. And there's three parts to it. It's about the way you think, the way you feel, and the way you behave. So in terms of your thoughts, we know that the vast majority of things that we think aren't even true. Our brain rehashes stuff. It tells us stories that are fake. It lies to us all the time. So part of building mental strength is realizing which thoughts to believe and which ones to rule out. And then the emotional part is just knowing that, yes, while something feels uncomfortable, I don't have to stay stuck in an uncomfortable emotion if I don't want to. I have some control over how I feel. And then the behavior piece is knowing. Yep, there's a lot of days in life I don't feel like doing something, but it's up to me to take action. And sometimes it's when you take that action first that you shift everything else. You can train your brain to see yourself differently when you do something you didn't think you were capable of, or when you take action to say, I'm not sure about this, but I'm going to test my self doubt. That's how you train your brain to become stronger. So it's really about the way you think, the way you feel, and the way you behave, and the daily strategies that you use to say, I'm going to grow mentally stronger.
- [07:51]
B
And when I went through the book, which again, I highly recommend everyone read. And if anybody's on the phone listening to this or watching this on our YouTube, if you can't afford the book, I will buy it for you. So that's my promise for everybody. And even if you're not really sure and you want me to buy it for you, I'll buy it for you. It's that important. But do you have a favorite of the 13 things? I was just curious, like, I wonder which One she likes the most. For me, it was, they don't give away their power and they don't focus on the things they can't control, which I talk about quite often. I say it a little differently, but I think I'm going to start saying it the way you do it. I like how you went like, they don't. Instead of, you know, successful people do this. You just did a little differently. And I loved your twist. But do you have a favorite or two?
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A
Yeah. So my favorite are probably the first two, which is don't feel sorry for yourself. Because that's right where I was when I wrote the letter, because I was thinking, oh, why me? Why do I have to keep losing my favorite people? So don't feel sorry for yourself. And then number two on the list, which is don't give away your power. Which since the books come out, that's the chapter that people seem to want to talk about the most, is how do you take back your power? And how have I been giving it away in life? Because it's so easy sometimes to blame everybody else. And I know you talk about taking personal responsibility, and there's that balance of saying, okay, well, what's my personal responsibility? What's outside of my control? How do you look for an explanation, but without making an excuse and saying it's everybody else's fault, too?
- [09:10]
B
That's funny, because in the book I developed something called an obstacle deep nexus analysis is what I call it. And we go through five areas of your life to try to find out what the root cause is. Because I find that a lot of people are solving the wrong problem perfectly.
- [09:24]
A
I like that because I agree that sometimes we attack the problem from the absolute wrong angle. And I always encourage people to ask yourself the question, do I need to solve the problem or solve how I feel about the problem? Because sometimes we try to fix other people. We try to change their behavior. We take a lot of time and effort and energy to prevent something bad from happening, even when it's out of our control. So sometimes it's more about just accepting, all right, I can't control this, but I'm going to work on my attitude or I'm going to work on my emotions or how I respond to it.
- [09:53]
B
And you're going to learn when I get to the book that there's this thing I also put together called the blame loop. And I think when you're stuck in it and those people around you that are trying to give you advice are stuck in the blame loop, that's Why? I encourage people to work with a professional coach or a therapist or somebody that's outside of their sphere of influence, so they can say, listen, I know this is what you think is going on, but I really think it's something else. Is that kind of an approach you use in therapy? That's the question I had Next.
- [10:16]
A
Yeah. Because again, sometimes people who are battling something like depression tend to blame themselves way too much. Like, oh, this is all my fault. There's nothing I can possibly do to get out of this because I'm a failure. I'm not the kind of person who can launch a business. I'm not the kind of person who's able to be successful when in reality, maybe you just need a little bit of help. But then on the flip side, there's other people I certainly encounter who have say, everybody holds you back in life, so there's no sense in trying, and they put on way too much external blame. But having an outside perspective of somebody who could say, all right, let's figure out what is within your control? Where's your responsibility? What steps can you take, even if it's a really small step, but, like, what's one little thing that you could do to try to make this better? And sometimes making things better might not mean that you're working on yourself. It might just mean I'm going to ask somebody else for help, or I'm going to look for different ways to solve this problem other than thinking that it's always everything. And obviously I speak about mental strength, but the solution isn't always changing your mindset. If you're running an uphill battle, then sometimes you might need some external resources. And I guess similar to your story about baseball and how you figured out eventually it was your eyesight. I'm a runner. And for my whole life, I always had this joke that I had exercise induced asthma, but it was a joke. I was kind of a hefty kid and I was always out of breath. Well, at the age of like, 43, I figured out I actually do have exercise induced asthma. And my audio engineer for my podcast was always telling me, like, by the way, I would breathe when I would go run into the studio and slide into my seat at the last minute, he's like, I think you have asthma. And I'm like, that's ridiculous. Like, I've been running my whole life. And so come to find out I actually do. Well, now that I can breathe when I run, running is way easier. So I do think there are so many times in Our lives where we have to look at. Yeah, like, is it just my mindset or are there other tools, strategies, resources, things that can help me too?
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B
You just triggered another story. It's this person who was struggling with his marriage, and he was also struggling with getting things to do so badly. In fact, he was driving his team at his company that he'd started a few years before. So crazy. Including his business partner. His business partner hired him an ADHD coach because they all thought he had adhd. And he worked with the coach for about six months. And the coach finally said, look, I don't think you have adhd. You're getting everything done. And normally I have to, like, force people to do things. I think you should go to your doctor to see if there's something else. And the doctor said, well, you've been struggling with ADHD your whole life. And the person said, no. It's driving me crazy when people are telling me that I have no idea what's going on. I know I don't get enough stuff done. I've gone through about four different productivity systems. Nothing seems to work. Work. I'm struggling with my marriage because I forgot to pay her health insurance. She's about to walk out the door, and I don't know what else to do. And the doctor said something nobody had told them. I was like, I think you have sleep apnea. And a sleep test revealed that he had sleep apnea. And when he got that fixed, the business got better. He started getting things more done. He was chronically exhausted. It's too late for the marriage that went into a place of no return. But it was me. And so it was to another medical problem that was causing the wrong problem. Anyway, that's my point. You just brought it up with other things. I don't think it's always health. Sometimes that's why we have those five areas we go through. But you just pointed out something really important. A lot of times it's not what you think.
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A
Right. And I'll have people that will come into my therapy office too, and say, like, I just can't get enough done. My to do list. I never am able to check up enough stuff on my to do list every day. What's wrong with me? Sometimes it's like they're trying to squeeze 35 hours worth of work into 18 hours of their day. And we look at that like, maybe your problem isn't that you're not productive enough. Maybe the problem is that you're expecting that you do way too much stuff. So let's figure out how to change your schedule, change your routine, take some things off of your plate, rather than figuring out how do I become strong enough that I can keep adding impossible tasks to my list of things to do.
- [14:03]
B
I think the old adage goes, most people overestimate what they can do in one day and underestimate what they can do in five. And so I've seen people add months, years, et cetera to that saying, but it does apply well. I did enjoy how you structured your chapters like I like your checkboxes in each chapter. And it was interesting going through there. I was like, God, as much as I teach this stuff, that's me still. That's me still. Was that by design?
- [14:26]
A
It was because I knew if I said to people, don't feel sorry for yourself, a lot of people are going to say, oh, I don't ever do that. But it's not always obvious the way that these things creep up into our lives in small ways sometimes. So now I find a lot of people, when they read the book, they'll say, well, I thought, oh, I don't have to worry about this chapter. But I read it anyway. But once I dove into it just a little bit, I thought, oh, maybe I am a bit of a people pleaser and I just don't realize it. Or maybe I do give up after the first failure. Sometimes I just don't really think about it because I'm only thinking about professional failure. So when you really take a look at it, and as you said before, I talk about what not to do, because as a therapist, I'm supposed to build on people's strengths. When they come into my office and they say, hey, I'm practicing my gratitude exercises, like, that's great. But what if you felt sorry for yourself for two hours and then you do 10 minutes of gratitude? They don't really equal out, which is why I talk about what not to do. Because if you have these little habits in your life, they just become so counterproductive that no matter how many good habits you have, they just don't really work that well. And I saw so many people who were trying to figure out, how do I just keep doing more stuff? More, more, more. But it was really about, if you just subtract one or two of the worst habits that you have, suddenly your good habits become so much more effective.
- [15:42]
B
That's great. There's a guy that I follow, Dan Martell. He wrote a book called Buy Back youk Time. If you haven't read it, it's a great book. But he always says he'll have people come up to him, like, what'd you do to be this successful? He's like, well, it's more about what I didn't do.
- [15:53]
A
Yeah, sometimes it is about what not to do. And I hear so many people who say, like, say yes to everything that comes your way because you need to be open to every opportunity. But every time you say yes to something, you're, like, saying no to something else. So it's really about being focused on, like, what's my goal? What's my plan? How do I make sure that I stay on the right course? And if I start saying yes to too many things, you just lose your vision and your sight and where you're gonna go and end up feeling like you're just running around like a chicken with your head cut off.
- [16:22]
B
Right? And then you start blaming yourself cause you're a failure. I do the opposite with coaching clients. I'll teach them. Look, every successful person that I know gets really good at saying no. And it's hard. And when I read the people pleaser section on that checklist that said, you know, you fit too much in your schedule, then you find out you're complaining about how busy you are, and I just started laughing. I was like, God, I love to help people, and I hate to tell people no, but sometimes you do have to tell them no.
- [16:46]
A
And as an author now, too, I find I get so many really cool opportunities that 15 years ago, I would have jumped at every single one. Because when I was a therapist working a 9 to 5 job, I didn't get invited to speak at a conference in another country. So the idea of that was just so amazing. But now that I get a lot more opportunities, I have to say no to a lot of things. But it's still like my brain hasn't quite caught up to what I get to say no to now. So my initial reaction is often, oh, yeah, that sounds amazing. And then I have to remember, is that really going to help me? Is that really going to get me to the next place I want to be? Or do I have to say no? And it's tough to say no to things that I just know, Like, I would have loved to have been invited to these things, or I would have loved to try it. But again, if I say yes to too many things, I lose sight of what I'm supposed to be working on.
- [17:34]
B
Are you tired of feeling stuck in your business, career, relationships, or your health? Are you frustrated by problems that just won't go away, no matter what you try. After coaching and teaching thousands of people for over 25 years, I've discovered something powerful. Every unresolved problem has a hidden solution you just can't see yet. That's why I created the From Stuck to Breakthrough challenge. A free 5 day live experience where I'll show you exactly how to uncover what's really holding you back and finally break free to the results that you want. Whether it's in your business, your health, your wealth, your relationships, I'll help you discover the real root cause of your challenges and give you the blueprint for permanent change. Join me and a community of like minded people ready to break through. Go to blindblaming.com again, that's blindblaming.com to sign up and we'll see you soon. I don't want to take away from the book. I've only got a couple more questions because I do want people to read it. But you mentioned five stages of change and they don't shy away from change chapter. Can you walk us through those?
- [18:33]
A
Yeah. So as a therapist, this is what we often try to use when people come into the office to assess where are they in this process? Because so often we just assume people are ready to take action. So the five stages are pre contemplation. These are the people who maybe come into my office and they say, my wife sent me in because she thinks I I'm not doing enough around the house. I think I'm fine, but here I am. Or my doctor sent me in because I don't take my medication very often, but I think I'm all right. But somebody else thinks you have a problem and you don't necessarily think that you do. That's the first stage, pre contemplation. The next one is contemplation. So these are the people who are like, you know, I know smoking is bad for me, but at the same time, not really sure I want to give it up because it does help me with my stress or it gives me an excuse to go outside during the day when I take a break. And I really like talking to my coworkers during our smoke break. So not sure I want to give it up, but I know it's not good for me. So you're thinking about the pros and cons. The next stage is when you are in preparation. So if we use the cigarette example again, somebody might say, I'm thinking about quitting, but I want my quit date to be on a Sunday so that I get a chance to Practice not smoking at home before I go to work on Monday, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna cut down by five cigarettes a day until I get to that date. And you're really starting to really plan ahead of how are you gonna manage this? And then the fourth stage is actually the action stage. That's the one where we say, okay, I'm changing this habit. I'm gonna start going to the gym in the morning. Or I'm gonna start trying to stick to a budget. Whatever it is, it's when you're really changing your behavior. And then the final stage is maintenance, which is when you figure out, how do I stick to this? Maybe it's easy to change your diet Monday through Friday. But then come Saturday, when you get invited to go out with friends and you eat at a restaurant, it's gonna be a little more difficult. So it's all about then figuring out, how am I gonna stick to this in the real world. Over the course of the long term, when there's obstacles in the way, temptations and the things, and your motivation starts to wane a bit, it gets harder to stick to those things. So then in our own lives, we can just ask ourselves those questions too. Like, where am I in that process of change? And if you try to skip to the action step, which is what a lot of people do, especially take New Year's resolutions, for example, December 31st, somebody says, Ooh, what's my New Year's resolution? Yes, I'm going to start going to the gym. And then about January 2nd, you're like, okay, I'm gonna go to the gym today. But then we know it wears off statistically by about January 18, because people haven't spent enough time really thinking about the pros and the cons and then figuring out the steps it's gonna take. And then how am I gonna go to the gym on days when I'm tired or when I have to work late? Where's it gonna fit into my schedule? How am I gonna go on the weekends? And we start to really run into those obstacles. Cause we haven't prepared for them yet.
- [21:24]
B
When you're describing what I call awareness, I. Right. At the very last, when we almost finished, the editor came back and said, look, I think you've got this down to where there's three steps in your book. Awareness is the first stage. And that, to me, is what you're describing. Just being aware that this is going on. And that's one of the first things you have to do before you can take action. That's what I hear you saying.
- [21:42]
A
Exactly. If we just take a little bit of time to just really examine it. And if you're only, say, in the contemplation stage, you're weighing the pros and cons, thinking, all right, do I want to change my diet? Do I want to start going to the gym? Do I want to quit smoking? You really want to spend more time thinking about the pros and the cons and really saying, okay, well, what would this mean? What sort of things does this open up? Let's say I start going to the gym regularly. What's my motivation to do that? So sometimes I'll have people write a list. Here's the top 10 reasons why I should go to the gym. And then when you are doubting yourself and thinking, oh, I don't feel like going today, you bring out that list and you read it, and it helps you stop talking yourself out of going. Or it really does a lot of things for your motivation, because suddenly you're like, all right, yep, yep, I should go. And you can talk yourself into it, but you really have to know, like, where am I on this continuum of change? And what strategies do I need to help move me to the next stage? Not to just skip ahead, say, I'm going to take action. It doesn't work. And then you feel like, well, I'm a failure.
- [22:42]
B
Yeah, it's usually day three for me. It's like, I'm good. So doing this, signing up for the fitness challenge is a new one for me in September. That helped, but I did something different that I've never done before. First of all, I signed up for it because my trainer's like, just do it, Kevin. You've been talking about it for three years. The next thing I did is like, okay, if I hit it, great. But I also came up with. And I don't know how you feel about this as a psychotherapist, but I came up with a funny punishment. So if I don't hit my goal, my weight goal, the deal I made with myself is I have to get on stage with no tanning, and I am pasty white. I tan well if I'm in the sun, but I'm inside all the time doing this stuff. I don't get out as much as I want to. I have started walking during the day, outside at least once a day to try to get some sun at least once a day. But, yeah, that's my punishment. I don't know how you feel about that. But I'd love to hear your opinion.
- [23:29]
A
Well, you know, having something in mind like that, that knowing, like, all right, this is going to be public, I think that can actually be a very good motivator. Because on the flip side of that is if you do meet your goal, then I suspect there's a positive reward. Am I right?
- [23:44]
B
There is, yes. It's either going to be one of the most epic and hilarious things my friends and followers I've ever seen, or it's going to be extremely gratifying for me. Just last night, I had a long day at a couple of podcasts to record. As you know, when you launch a book you've done many times, there's a lot of stuff going on at the same time. And I didn't feel like doing my last walk because I have to walk 15,500 steps a day and then lift weights five days a week and only eat 1800-2000 calories a day. And I did not feel like it. And I just started thinking about, all right, what's it going to be like when people are laughing at me on stage? Not fun. So I got my butt on the treadmill and finished it out.
- [24:19]
A
And I think that the validation, the response to know and to have some kind of a deadline, because if you just said to yourself, you know, 2025 is the year I'm gonna get into shape, it would be really easy to say, well, not today. I'm not gonna go for another walk today. I've had a long day, I'll do that tomorrow. But when we have a time limit, and then we also know there's some sort of a consequence, either positive or negative, that really helps us on the days when we aren't that motivated. Because if you don't have the internal motivation, there's that external thing that tells us, oops, all right. Even though you aren't feeling it, you have this thing coming up. I had done a 30 day challenge as well. I had no plans to make it public. When I first started, though, my fitness trainer said, you're going to want to take a before picture. I was like, oh, no, no. Like, we don't need to do that. And he said, no, really. He said, you're going to want to see the results. So we took a before picture. And then as I was working out, I thought, well, if we had the before picture, there's going to be an after picture. So I guess I better stay on course too, so that the after picture looks like I actually made a change in a Month. And that was certainly a motivator, because I knew, all right, the reward is gonna be, yeah, I've got an after picture that looks pretty good. But the consequence if I didn't was I might be like, you know, the after picture looks exactly the same as the before. So that helped me, too, of knowing, nope, I don't have any cheat days. I'm not gonna skip anything because I have this thing that's gonna be my external motivator for the days when I struggle with the intrinsic motivation.
- [25:45]
B
Well, the other thing I liked is you wrote a letter to yourself. And that's what launched this whole 13 things not to do in my. I call it a breakthrough journal. We developed a journal to go along with the book. And the other thing that I read almost every other day, I wrote a letter for my future self. And that seems to help, too, because it just describes how much different my life is in July this year, because I wrote in July of last year, and I have lost 37 pounds almost. So it's been pretty interesting to see and then hear the comments from other people. But that letter to my future self, I don't know if you recommend that for your clients.
- [26:15]
A
I love the idea, and there's science behind that as well.
- [26:18]
B
Oh, I didn't know that. Tell me about that.
- [26:20]
A
So one of my favorite things about that is, all right, so when you write something down, like, it just kind of makes it solidifies. It makes it more concrete, gets it out of our head. Our brains are kind of a jumbled mess sometimes. So anything you write down helps your brain make sense of something. But the other cool thing is when you write something down and then it's a letter to yourself, and you keep it. Just like my original list of the 13 things was a letter to myself. But that showed my brain I value these thoughts. And this is really important to me. And especially if you write a letter and you keep it, whether you keep it in your desk drawer, you have it in your wallet, you put it in your purse, you're showing your brain that I physically value this way of thinking. So if it's a positive letter that says, hey, next year at this time, I'm hoping you'll be doing a, B and C or even a letter about right now, a change you're trying to make. Like, hey, you're gonna go through some tough times, but I know you've got this. Here's how I know that you've got it. Any kind of encouraging, positive letter to yourself. If you keep it, you've taught your brain I value this way of thinking. This is important. On the flip side, let's say you have some critical thoughts about yourself. Like, I'm just not good enough. I'm not able to do these things. Write that down on a piece of paper and then you crumple it up and you throw it in the trash and you physically show your brain, I don't value this way of thinking. And you won't think that way as often. And there's research and studies that show that this is very true, that it's not just about, okay, I'm gonna change the way I think. Sometimes you can show your brain how to think by what you do with that piece of paper. So if it's a letter to yourself and you keep it, you've just taught your brain this is a valuable way to think. Do more of this and you start to think more positively. So I love that you did that. I think that's a great exercise.
- [27:58]
B
Well, it makes me feel good because it's on the. In fact, I think when I send. Do you like paper books or do you like audio tapes? What do you prefer?
- [28:04]
A
I live on a boat, so I can only collect so many physical books. So I love audiobooks and I can listen.
- [28:10]
B
Well, I gotta record it now, so I'll get that to you as well. I just have the journal that goes along with it's coming today. So it's neat to kind of see it all together because in the book, like you instead of a checklist, I have reflection questions, but I put spaces in there for the write them in. The. The first few people I've given it to have come back is like, is there more to this? Like a journal? I'm like, well, I guess, yeah, we just. I guess I can put that together. You gave me some more fodder for the psychologically how it helps you by writing things down. So are you a fan of journaling at all?
- [28:39]
A
I am. And I like that you did a journal because I found that people get nervous about writing in a book. They feel guilty because as kids we were taught, don't write in your book. So when you have a book, people often don't want to write in it. And so I think when you have a journal, you're giving people permission and saying to them, yes, please write in this book. And I want you to write in it. So I think journaling is so important because sometimes it's just about how do I put all of this jumbled mess together, make sense of the thoughts I Have figure out what my feelings are. We know from the research, too. Just naming an emotion takes a lot of the sting out of it. So if you can say, I'm anxious, you feel a little bit less anxious already. So when you write those things down and you start to make more sense of it, your brain doesn't have to keep having these jumbled thoughts that are all swirling around in there all the time. Because now you've made some more sense of what's going on.
- [29:27]
B
Based on what you just said when I introduced the book, I'm going to have to tell people, look, I know you were taught as kids not to write in your book, but this book is okay to write in. And there's an accompanying journal if you want something different. And I always teach people to use these erasable pens that they make now friction. That way, for the OCD people, they can have it perfect and not have to worry about erasing.
- [29:46]
A
Great idea.
- [29:47]
B
Well, your TED Talk resonated with millions of people, obviously. What do you think makes mental strength such a universal and powerful topic?
- [29:54]
A
I think it was in part because nobody had really been talking about it. So many people say, I just never even knew mental strength existed. We hear about mental toughness, but it's often discussed in terms of a Navy SEAL who has to suppress their emotions and push through at all cost. And that works great on the battlefield, but in real life, that's not what you want to do. You don't want to just shove everything down, pretend it doesn't exist, and suffer for no real reason. So I think people were excited to now have some information about what does it really look like to be mentally strong? How do you get through tough times, but also how do you enjoy the good times? It's not just about saying, I'm going to bounce back when life is awful. I think it would be horrible if we spent all of our time just preparing for the worst. But mental strength's also about enjoying the good times, making those little shifts in your life so that you can live life to its fullest and enjoy the happy moments, too. Life is going to be a roller coaster. There's ups, there's downs, and there's lots of stuff in between. How do you get the most out of it? We're all going to go through tough times, but hopefully all of us are going to go through some amazing times, too. And mental strength, I think, is really helps. People say, I'm going to enjoy the ride. And even when things are down, I know that there's potentially something Good. Right around the next corner. So let's stick it out.
- [31:08]
B
Well, one of the themes of Beyond Blame Blaming, as we discussed, is that people often misdiagnose their struggles. And so we talked about both ways. In your experience, how do people that mistakenly blame external factors when their real obstacles are internal or vice versa when they think it's something internal, which I think is one of the biggest problems I have with self help books, is many times it's pointing the finger at us when sometimes it's not us. What do you see more of and how do you deal with it?
- [31:34]
A
I would say for people who are coming to my therapy office, for people who are battling depression, they blame themselves for everything. It could just be I somehow was involved in the assassination of jfk. And you have to say no, like, you really don't have to blame yourself for all this stuff or that thing that happened in the third grade, we can let that go. People who struggle with anxiety often are struggling more with the external. Like, ugh, what if this person does this? Or what if something bad happens and they don't want to feel anxious? So then you kind of shrink your world. You avoid the things that you think are uncomfortable. So I see both, and I think it really depends, and all of us fall on different places on that continuum, and it probably depends on the issue. Sometimes people say, you know, when it comes to my business, I'm a hundred percent responsible for absolutely everything and whether I'm successful or not. Somebody else might say, well, you know, you can't control the economy, you can't control what's going on in your circle. You can't control whether somebody else has a product that's better than yours. So it's really not up to you. And there's something called an internal locus of control and an external locus of control. When you have an internal locus of control, you put way too much pressure on yourself to perform at all costs. It's 100% my responsibility in life whether I end up being successful. But if I have an external locus of control, then I say, nope, it's fate. Either I'm going to be successful or I'm not. But I have zero control over it. It just depends. Maybe I'm in the right place at the right time. I buy a winning lottery ticket, but it's not up to me. The healthiest place to be is what we call the bilocus of control, where you can recognize, okay, I have some control over this situation. But there is such a thing as being in the right place. The right time at the right moments, or you encounter the right person who helps you with, or you launch a product at just the right minute. And you know, as an author, you can't control what other books launch the same day. Yours does. If you launch a book and there's a huge mega author who launches it on the same day, that's gonna affect your ability to hit a bestsellers list. But what can you control writing the best book that you can, and how are you gonna market your book and get your book out there to the right audience? So again, that acknowledging, yep, there's a lot of things outside of my control, but what can I manage? And the people that I think have the best mental health are the ones that recognize those balances of, okay, right now, what's within my control, what isn't, and how do I manage that? We're all gonna be dealt some strange curveballs in this life that we're living. And to know, all right, that's what I was dealt. What am I gonna do with it? It's when we resist it and we think, well, this isn't fair and I shouldn't have to deal with this and why do these things always happen to me? That we don't actually take any action. But when you can accept, all right, this happened to me, but what are my choices, what are my options and what am I going to do about it that you can start to move forward?
- [34:25]
B
Well, it's perfect timing because resilience is a big part of success, which you kind of just described. Yet many people assume they either have it or they don't. How do you help people develop resilience when they feel stuck?
- [34:37]
A
So part of it is about the way that you think about it. Again, when somebody says, nope, obviously this obstacle I'm facing is proof that I'm not good enough. Might be that they are launching a business and they come into their first major issue and they think, yep, wasn't meant to be. So it's also about the stories that we tell ourselves about whether we're capable or competent or we start to tell ourselves, yeah, I have no business doing this. Why did I even try? I've embarrassed myself and I can't move forward. So sometimes it's changing that narrative. And then it's also about knowing, okay, just because I feel bad doesn't mean I have to stop. And sometimes people need some encouragement to know, like, okay, this is uncomfortable, but you can do it anyway. And that's where a lot of this other stuff comes into play, where we encourage people to do hard things voluntarily so that when you encounter something involuntarily, you're like, no, I've done this hard stuff. Whether somebody. I'm not into cold plunges, but a lot of people are. But part of the reason why something like that works is because you've taught yourself, I can handle being uncomfortable. So if you're not into cold plunges, do something else. Sprint. Go do something that's difficult for you. Try a improv class, but put yourself out there and do hard things just so you can teach yourself. All right, when something happens and I'm uncomfortable, it's not the end of the world. I can keep going. And so there are tons of skills that people can learn and practice. But I hear people say all the time, even with kids, like, well, kids are resilient. Well, they're not born resilient. They can be resilient if we teach them how. But it's really about knowing, how do you manage your uncomfortable emotions? How do you manage the thoughts that come into play? And then what action steps are you going to take when you face adversity?
- [36:12]
B
Well, do you have any stories you're talking about when people realize that? Or I'll call it a pivotal moment when somebody realizes, wow, I've been doing this all wrong. And how does that shift their entire world?
- [36:23]
A
Oh, it absolutely can, I guess. I'll give you a story from my own life. So I, as a kid, probably could have been diagnosed with either social anxiety or even selective mutism. I didn't talk at all. My friends spoke for me. I have an older sister that would talk for me. So if we were in a restaurant, somebody would order for me. That was great. If I had a question for the teacher, I'd just whisper to my friend and they would ask. Never talked even in high school. If my high school English teacher wanted everybody to read their essays, she didn't even ask me if I wanted to read mine. She'd just read it for me. I was happy to not talk. And I always just thought, I'm incapable of sharing my story. I don't have anything interesting to say. And because I'm incredibly shy, when I try to talk, my voice cracks, my face turns beet red. Speaking isn't for me. So the idea that I would go on to do a TED Talk or that I would have a podcast or that I would do with this stuff was completely foreign to me. And if somebody had told me that when I was, say, 14, someday you're going to put a Microphone in your face and talk in front of people. Number one, I wouldn't have believed it. But number two, I would have been like, well, I'm not going to become an adult then, because that would have been my worst nightmare. But when my husband passed away, I gave the eulogy at his funeral. And it was the first time in my entire life that I stood up in front of a group of people, and I didn't care if I look like an idiot. And I thought, even if I stumble over my words, even if I say something incredibly stupid or my face turns beet red or I forget what I was going to say, I don't care. I had a couple stories about him that I wanted everybody in the room to hear. And I no longer cared about myself. I cared about making sure that that message was heard by other people and that idea that I could do that. Then I thought, well, if I can give a eulogy at my husband's funeral, I can give a speech in front of 25 entrepreneurs. Like, it's really not a big deal anymore. But just doing that, it wasn't anything I would ever wish on anybody to have to do at the age of 26, but changed the entire course of my life. This belief that I had about myself, that I was too shy, that I had nothing interesting to say, and that I couldn't speak in front of people, all went out the window that one day. Because I thought, who cares if I get up there and even if I am in front of a group of people and I stumble over my words, it doesn't matter. It's not a big deal. People are really quite kind and forgiving, and they can relate to that, too. And so now I'm like, yeah. So I gave the TEDx talk. It's got 24 million views, I believe now. And I think here I was the kid that didn't dare read my paper in front of my high school English class of 20 people. And I went to a really small high school, so we'd all known each other since kindergarten. And I get to have a podcast and I get to do cool stuff like be on your show. But it's just one example of how sometimes something that we believe about ourselves, a label that we've put on ourselves, can keep us stuck in a really small box. And it's not until you branch out and you really test those theories. Now, I wouldn't have tested this theory of whether I could talk in front of a group of people. I would have never done it on my own had I not been put in that situation, I wouldn't have tried it and I would have been okay with that, but probably would have spent my entire life thinking I can't possibly speak in front of two or three people if I don't know them well enough. So I always encourage people, no matter how long you've held onto a belief or no matter how much you've believed it, test it. Because you really won't know until you try. Life should be a series of these little experiments and when you put yourself out there, you can train your brain to see yourself differently. Now I know, okay, I'm a capable person who can speak in front of a crowd of people and doesn't seem like it's earth shattering, but a few years ago it certainly would have felt like, no, that's not possible.
- [39:59]
B
You're definitely making an impact. Well, you've clearly taken the time to develop yourself. It sounds like once you had the confidence. What's your favorite way to learn? I always like to ask every guest, what's the favorite way that you have to invest in yourself again?
- [40:11]
A
I love to just read like research studies on stuff, but then of course to test all those theories. It's one thing when something is in a study and it says yes, if you do this, then X, Y or Z. But I want to make sure I test everything myself too. So just try to look at all of these different experiments of what I can do in life, right down to just writing something down on a piece of paper and throwing it away actually work. And that's how I learn. I think all of these little things sometimes add up and make a big difference in our lives. So absolutely love to say, what else am I going to test? What am I capable of? And what else do I want to try?
- [40:45]
B
Are you still in practice? Are you still seeing patients? Or do you have a therapy practice?
- [40:49]
A
So I do a little bit. I now live on a boat in the Florida Keys, so I do a bit of zoom mental strength coaching just so that I can stay up on what people are struggling with. When I wrote my first book, TikTok Wasn't a Thing. Instagram wasn't nearly as big as it was. So I think about the things in the book and how they've shifted over the years. I talk about not comparing yourself to people. Well, that was even easier to do when I wrote the book. That's much more difficult now that so many people are spending time on social media. So I do try to maintain a little bit of mental strength coaching just so That I can figure out, like, what are people's struggles in today's world? Post Covid and now that we're in this strange digital era, what are people still struggling with?
- [41:31]
B
I see a lot of anxiety.
- [41:33]
A
Me too. And people will say to me, well, depression must be the most common thing that you see in people. Nope, it is by far anxiety. And anxiety is one of the most treatable yet under treated conditions. People who have anxiety, of course put off going to get help for it because it's too anxiety provoking. I don't want to call a therapist, or what if it doesn't go well? Or what if I don't know what door to go to? I mean, all of these questions that people with anxiety will come up with. So the average person with a anxiety disorder will wait about 10 years before they get help. And I've never had anybody say, you know, I wished I'd waited a little longer. Instead, people come in and they say, like, why didn't I do this years and years ago? I just could have changed my 30s or my 40s if I had just talked to somebody back then, then I wouldn't have had to go through all this stuff. So I always encourage people. If you think that you're struggling with something, you can start by asking your physician. Unfortunately, a lot of physicians aren't completely well versed in mental health, so they might brush it off or say, that's normal. There's a website called Mental Health America that has screening tools on it. And on there you can say like, do I have an anxiety disorder? And there's like a little checklist on there. It's not meant to diagnose you, but for a lot of people it's eye opening. Because sometimes people will say, never occurred to me. And it's not just for anxiety, but all mental health issues. And in today's world, for people who have anxiety too, you don't necessarily have to go to a therapist's office. You can now see therapists online. You can have phone appointments. You can even have email or text message appointments too. So if there's a method that would help you feel better, by all means go that route. And if you can't afford professional help, a lot of people can. It's still inaccessible in a lot of ways. Then get some credible information out there about what helps with anxiety. One of the biggest things we know with anxiety is we try to manage it by avoiding. But the more you avoid things that make you anxious, the worse it becomes and the harder it is to do Those things. So the solution to anxiety is to face your fears. But you do it just one small step at a time to say, all right, this is anxiety provoking and I'm gonna do it anyways. The solution isn't to just get rid of all your feelings of anxiety. It's about to take a little bit of action to face those fears. And you just do it one small step at a time.
- [43:45]
B
And do you think that sometimes anxiety leads to depression? And it's kind of people start treating the depression well, this goes back to the blind blaming whole concept. So people start treating their depression when it's really an anxiety problem.
- [43:56]
A
I hear that. So that happens all the time. So let's say somebody says, I have a lot of anxiety about being out there in the world, so I'm gonna stay home a lot. And then they stay home a lot and they think, well, that really helped with my anxiety. If I work from home and I don't ever leave my living room, my anxiety is a lot better. But you know what? Now I'm really depressed. Cause I haven't done anything fun in six months. And then it's like, okay. So then they try to treat their depression. Well, what's the cures for depression? Sometimes it's going for a walk, being outside, doing fun things, having friends. But then they're like, well, I can't because I have anxiety. So they do play off of each other quite often. And then people feel like they're playing whack a mole with like, what, what symptoms do I address? How do I manage this? How do I make sure I keep the anxiety at bay without becoming too depressed? So they do often go hand in hand. And the solution then is saying, we're going to increase your anxiety a bit because we're going to go out, we're going to do those things that are tough to do. It's going to make your depression better. You're going to feel a little worse at first, but if you stick with it and you keep working on it, eventually you'll feel a lot better.
- [44:58]
B
That leads me to the last question. To wrap it up. What is the best next step for people that have something that they're worried about or they've been told that they have this or that going on? Is it to seek professional help or is it to read your book? What do you think is the first or best next step when people are concerned about anything?
- [45:15]
A
I think it goes back to your thought about self awareness earlier. And sometimes it's just acknowledging, okay, this is hard because so often we are like, I just gotta get around this next hurdle. And it might be, I just gotta get through this week. I gotta wait till Saturday. Or maybe it's once summer comes, I'll feel better. And people just put off acknowledging their struggles, or they shove them down, or they pretend that they're not as bad. We minimize it. And then people feel like they're just surviving. And you really don't want to just get through life surviving it. You want to thrive. How do you thrive in life? Sometimes it's turning around and you face those problems head on and say, okay, how do I work on this? And again, it's all one small step at a time. Sometimes people have this attitude of go big or go home, but they usually end up going home. You don't want to say, come Monday I'm going to completely overhaul my entire life because you probably aren't going to stick with it. But what's one small thing that you could do come Monday? Maybe it's that you get a better night's sleep on Sunday night. Maybe it's that you're going to pack a lunch on Monday so you eat something healthier during the day, or you actually take a lunch break and not stare at your computer for 30 minutes, or you go for a walk. But all of those little things can make a huge difference. But you can't get there to change your behavior until you really acknowledge what the problem is in the first place.
- [46:31]
B
Yeah, I like starting with ones and being aware. I was looking up at my sign. I have it. It says deciding to commit yourself to long term results rather than short term fixes is as important as any decision you'll ever make in your lifetime. But a lot of times that hardest step, like for me, I built a 3000 sq ft garage Mahal with a gym. And I swear to God that 10ft to the gym door is one of the hardest 10ft I could ever walk through. Even today. Even like last night, I was so tired and mentally exhausted just getting. But once I got there, I was great. And once I got moving. So that goes back to some of the atomic habit advice. I don't know if you read Atomic Habits, but it's one of my favorites.
- [47:06]
A
Right? And I'll tell people, when you're really struggling with something, use the ten minute rule. Like, okay, I'm going to go to the gym for 10 minutes and when I get to the 10 minute mark, if I don't feel like working out, I'm going to leave. Well, getting started is the hardest part. Once you get to 10 minutes, you're like, well, I can do another 10 minutes. Very rarely will you ever actually, at the 10 minute mark, say, okay, I'm done. But once you get going, it's easy to stay in motion.
- [47:28]
B
Well, this has been a wonderful time. If people need to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to get in touch?
- [47:32]
A
My website is Amy Morin, LCSW, as in licensed ClinicalSocialWorker.com and if you go there, you find all this information about my books, my podcast, and everything else that I have going on.
- [47:44]
B
Well, thank you again for being on the show. It was awesome.
- [47:46]
A
Thanks for having me.
- [47:48]
B
All right, have a good day.
- [47:49]
A
You too.