B (8:07)

What a great story. I think we all have those mentors that we all remember. Hopefully we have mentors, but there's several people along the way, along my journey that I remember the most. It's nice that you can narrow it down to one person. And what he did for you. Sounds amazing.

A (8:21)

It's funny, someone asked me the other day if I had ever had the opportunity to tell that teacher, and he was only at our school for one year. He had some interesting teaching methods to connect with people, but never believed. Sometimes when you're innovators in large bureaucracies, you get forced out by the system or you get frustrated. So he only lasted at that school for a year. And then last year when I was launching the book, I was back in Perth, Australia, and he came along to one of the events and it was cool. That was like more than two decades later. And I got to thank him in person. And of course, there's other people who've played a role in my life, not least also my parents. But that was definitely a fork in the road moment. When I look back to it, I.

B (9:04)

Had a professor in college one day. My family went to the same school and I went into the same profession. And he backed me up against the wall with his finger in my chest, saying, I'm pretty disappointed in your test results. You're better than this and I'm going to make you take this class again.

A (9:17)

Wow.

B (9:18)

And I did. And he was right because I was drinking a party and having a good time. I was 22 at the time, but I always remember that because it made a difference for me to get my button gear, as we say here. Well, as you said and what I've read about you, you've mobilized millions of people worldwide. You mentioned the music part of that. Do you feel like that's the secret to turning everyday individuals into powerful advocates for change? Or is there some other secret you want to talk about?

A (9:41)

I think Music plays a powerful role because it is something that connects and unifies across borders, across tensions, across conflict. We've had the opportunity to meet with Coldplay, work with Coldplay for about the last 10 years. They're one of the biggest bands on the planet. I think by revenue, they're actually larger than Taylor Swift as a touring circuit. Right. Like, it's incredible. And I've been to their shows all around the world. And whether you're in Rio, whether you're in Eastern Europe, whether you're in Australia, whether you're in Japan, whether you're in the United States of America, it's really incredible how audiences gravitate around that. So I think music has always had that power. Right. It's similar, I think, to how sports can do that as well. Part of the reason why I've been here in Dallas is at Global Citizen. It was just announced yesterday, actually, and Chris Martin beamed in, but Global Citizen is going to be producing the first ever halftime show of a FIFA World cup when it's hosted here in United States, Mexico and Canada next year. And Chris Martin, and beaming in, was actually talking about the power of music and sport together in order to reach people. If you want to mainstream these issues, whether it's on poverty, whether it's sanitation, whether it's education, popular culture is a great way to get this in front of as many people as possible and give them a platform to take action. So I certainly believe in the power of popular culture because otherwise. Otherwise you're just talking amongst yourselves. Right. And it's a recognition that people are not one dimensional. Even the most greatest saints in the world who do the most amount of good, they still like music, they still like sports. And so I think it's a recognition that people have multiple interests and you can tap in those interests as a way to meet people where we're at and hopefully give them a platform to do some good. I would say if we take a step back, I often talk in the book here From Ideas to Impact, I talk about how you can leverage the strengths of others. And I think that's really what it boils down to. If you have an initiative, if you have an idea, there's that great saying that no one can do everything, but everyone can do something, right? And often we can multiply the impact of our actions by asking others for help or leveraging platforms of others if we know how to do it. And in my view, leveraging music is just one tool to do that. We're also looking at E games, esports, other platforms out there as well in order to do this. And I have one fond memory just on this, because people always say, well, how do you reach out to others? And I'm like, well, it's funny because those who actually often have platforms, you know, you've got a platform, you've got your podcast, but you think about it, often you're actually open to being asked if someone has a good idea and a good cause and they ask you for help and you're in a position, you're like, yeah, okay. But we often don't think about asking these people, and we assume that maybe they're inundated, maybe they've got too many requests. And that may be true, but often actually, if a good idea appears, and it's very clear how that's going to impact lives, people are readily available to assist. And I think Back to in 2018, when we brought the Global Citizen Festival to South Africa to mark what would have been the 100th birthday of the founder of our nation, Nelson Mandela. We had Beyonce, we had Jay Z, we had Ed Sheeran, Oprah Winfrey, Dave Chappelle. Yeah, I mean, we brought everyone there. It was incredible. And yet we had these young women, and I talk about this in the book, these young female activists who is campaigning for girls to have access to education. And I think back to it, they just reached out to us on social media and said, hey, I don't know if you've selected your cause, but we have a cause which you should be taking up. And it's the fact that millions of girls sometimes have to drop out of school because they can't afford something as basic as period products when they get their period. And that became a big issue for us. And because of that, we've worked with those young advocates to impact the lives. I think something like 4 million girls in South Africa have had access in the last few years that wouldn't have done. And maybe just for some of those girls, that was the difference between staying in school and dropping out of school. And so I think back to that and the conversation, and they just reached out and asked us, and there's multiple other examples about that as well. So, anyway, I'm looking forward to diving into that further in subsequent follow on to the book, because I think one thing is helping people figure out how they can ask the right questions, who they can go to ask for support, because it's out there. We just often need to know where to look to find it.

B (14:36)

And you got to find it and tell me if I'm wrong. Sometimes you have to get a lot of no's before you get a yes.

A (14:41)

Exactly. And not to be discouraged by that. Someone once said to me when we were in the early years of starting Global Citizen, applying for all these grants, philanthropic support, someone said to me, never underestimate the power of a quick no. And take that as a gift at an opportunity.

B (14:58)

Yeah, it's one step closer to a yes. I actually own an indoor petting zoo here locally. If you have your kid with you, you could bring him by. But getting funding for that was difficult. So we're still working on it. There's no grants. I just self funded it because it's been so much fun. But that my business partner who founded the zoo was a little disappointed and I was like, look, don't give up. It's just another no. It gets one more step closer. Yes, it's better than them just kind of dragging you on for six months and making you have false hope. So don't worry about it.

A (15:26)

Every idea has its time, right? We were working during the pandemic because we suddenly couldn't do these large scale events anymore. We were working on different content ideas for shows. And one idea we were working on was a program aimed at kids between the age of 8 and 12, and in particular social media literacy. Like how you can't remove the fact we have technology, but how can you teach kids in a fun, engaging way on how to use social media, how to use our phones in the right way, how to be aware of the risks, how to navigate misinformation, all of that. And we pitched to some of the networks and it sat there. We didn't hear back. And then last year, several years later, this Canadian network reached out to us and said, hey, you had that kids program idea, right? Well, we'd love to commission that. And so we did it. We produced a show and it's called Media Stamps by the way, for any with young kids who might be interested. But it was a really fun show. And so I think, yeah, I genuinely believe every idea has its time. And if you have those ideas developed, sometimes in those moments of chaos and people are looking for something off the shelf, your idea might just get selected.

B (16:36)

Are you tired of feeling stuck in your business, career, relationships or your health? Are you frustrated by problems that just won't go away no matter what you try? After coaching and teaching thousands of people for over 25 years, I've discovered something powerful. Every unresolved problem has a hidden solution you just can't see yet. That's why I created the From Stuck to Breakthrough challenge, A free five day live experience where I'll show you exactly how to uncover what's really holding you back and finally break free to the results that you want. Whether it's in your business, your health, your wealth, your relationships. I'll help you discover the real root cause of your challenges and give you the blueprint for permanent change. Join me and a community of like minded people ready to break through. Go to blind blaming.com again, that's blind blaming.com to sign up and we'll see you soon. Well, as we talked about before we started, a key theme of the new book and this podcast is beyond blind blaming. And blind blaming is simply when you think you know what the problem is, but it's not the real problem. And when you get to the root cause of something or find out what the real problem is, magical things can happen. And I would think, as we talked about before we started today, that when it comes to making a difference out there, no matter what the challenge is across the world, there's a lot of blaming that goes on that's not really getting us anywhere. Do you have any examples of blind blaming when it comes to poverty and global inequality?

A (17:58)

It's really interesting. As I was researching for the book From Ideas to Impact and interviewing all of these people who had led successful endeavors to impact lives in their communities around the world, I asked them all this same question. If there was one key ingredient, what would that be? One common denominator amongst them all that they could all agree on, that they all had in common, was that creating change, making a difference, a positive difference in our world, required working, engaging and interacting with people they didn't always like or agree with. Yeah, it is very interesting because when I asked them, well, what's the biggest barrier to do this? And as they shared their stories, and I've got a few examples of this in the book, they all pointed back to the fact that the biggest barrier to overcoming this fear, to engage with those they may not agree with, maybe it's someone they hate even was often this sense of shame or guilt that they feel like they might encounter from their own side, their friends, their family. And it was often this sense of fear, what others might think of them, that prevented them from often building bridges in order to bring about change. And I call it the purity test. I think we've gotten ourselves into a situation around the world, not just here in America, but in other parts of the world where almost we feel this pressure that the only people we engage with are people who agree with us 100% on every single issue. And if they don't, because we're fearful about what others might say, we're taught to say, no, no, no, I shouldn't engage with that person. I think this is very damaging. And so this purity test I talk about in the book, yes, we can be idealistic, but we also need to be pragmatic as well. I talk about pragmatic idealism. And as one example, because you asked me for an example, I can share from my own background, a few years ago, we were organized in this event. And anyone who has organized an event, any of your listeners, regardless of what it is, it could be a wedding, it could be even a family barbecue. But, you know, it's very stressful. The night before, you get everything ready, the day itself, you're exhausted. You're focused on making sure everything goes perfect. And so at the end of that event, you just feel, yes, a sense of elation, but also relief. Right. And the reason why I say that is that was my state of mind. We had just organized this event. I was leaving the office building. We had dropped off some stuff. I was going through the elevator. I was walking out on the street. And all of a sudden, as I exited the building, I was stopped on the sidewalk outside by this visibly, and I mean very, very visibly distressed individual who was one of our partners. And he walked up to me pointing his finger, jamming his finger at me. And he said, how dare you? He said, how dare you allow that man on your stage? And the man, just to clarify that he was referring to was a US Senator who we had invited. And on the one hand, the reason why he was saying, after everything he's just said, the reason why, you know, you shouldn't have allowed him on your platform is he was referring to recent comments he had made around women's health, sexual reproductive health and rights, these issues, because it was right after Roe vs Wade in America and the Supreme Court decision. And yet the reason why we had invited him is we had a panel specific to nature, looking at the power of planting trees, the power of restoring America's forests, and the impact that that could have on the planet. And we had invited this senator because he was one of the few members of his own party willing to back bipartisan legislation in the Congress, the bipartisan infrastructure investment bill. And he had been instrumental in getting dollars and into that bill to restore forests across America. And people could question, okay, were we right to invite him? Shouldn't we have invited him. But the point I come back to is that bill was only passed with the support of senators like that. And in the years since, as the dollars flowed and as this took place, the impact of that was, I think we calculated it. In two years, the equivalent of 500,000 football fields of forest was replanted or restored across America. 500,000 football fields. And so the question I ask myself and I ask people is, are we interested in winning arguments? Are we interested in changing the world and impacting people's lives? Because I know what I'm interested in and I just think through to that moment. And others have recounted other similar episodes and again, I have other examples that others recounted in the book. And so when you look at blame, often the blame comes from those who are on our own team, part of our own tribe. They're almost blaming us for the state of the world as a result. And the simple thing they're pointing at is because you spoke to that person or you worked with that person. And so, you know, I think one of the biggest, biggest barriers we have to overcome is this idea of self imposed purity tests. To be honest, can't wait to get.

B (23:49)

The book in my book in your hands. Because when we come over the solution, reflect as a stage, we call it the RCD method. R stands for reflect where you're trying to reflect, dig deep, look at different places where the problem could really lie. But I think the biggest challenge between R and C, C stands for connect. And that's where you're either working with a coach or a mastermind group or other people that are outside of your sphere of influence. And it's the one thing that I see missing in things like root cause analysis and other things that I researched and putting the book together is because when you're stuck in that circle and there's a lot of research to back this up, we don't have time to get into it today. That just says, look, sometimes in certain situations, because of your experiences and what you've gone through and your sphere of influence, it's physiologically impossible for you to see a solution sometimes. And it takes somebody from outside that sphere, outside that way of thinking to get clarity, if that makes sense.

A (24:40)

Yeah, I think it was the philosopher, right, John Stuart Mill, who made the comment, and I'm probably going to bastardize this quote, but it was like, if we can't subject our ideas to scrutiny and debate, we're making them weak. Those ideas are not going to be strong, they're not going to be robust. And we make it stronger by having these conversations, by engaging with people who don't agree with us. And I think we make assumptions too much that we assume everyone has to agree with our view of the world. And we also sometimes make assumptions that just because someone disagrees with us on one issue, we make assumptions about how they think on every other issue. We assume that they're going to disagree with us on every other issue. And so we're going to miss finding those points of common ground in which we actually could do some good in the world. And so I think how we embrace unlikely allies and how we embrace impact over ideology, how we focus on solutions and not blame, I think this is the key ingredients to how we restore function and vibrant society in which we're able to do good and also give people back the belief that their actions can make a difference. I mean, we're living in this crazy world where arguably we as individuals have more tools at our disposal to make an impact in other people's lives than any previous generation in the history of humanity. And yet, when you ask people, I think every generation. There was a report that came out last year by the research firm Glocalities, every age group below the age of 55 believes that their actions can't make a difference, and they're apathetic about the world. And so we have to ask ourselves, well, why is this the case? Because there's. Objectively, that shouldn't be the case.

B (26:29)

It's like, you can read the sheet that I've prepared. I never send the questions in advance. We can have a conversation. But when I told somebody that I was talking to you, a couple of people, actually, we were sitting there having a drink, and. And they're like, yeah, because of the big corporations and governments, they hold all the control. How can we make a difference? And I was like, well, that's interesting. I'll ask him. So how do you help people shift from feeling like passive observers to active change makers? You were kind of getting there with where you were going, but it was just interesting because I'd written down the question. I was like, well, that's interesting. Some people feel like governments and large corporations have all the control and there's nothing they can do.

A (27:03)

I think there's two ways to answer that. The first is, is often we as individuals spend a lot of time diagnosing the problem. And I get messages on Instagram, on LinkedIn, and by the way, any of your viewers want to follow up on any of these points, they're more than welcome to reach out. And I will chat to people. They're often asking for my advice and it often seems that the conversation is diagnosing, even over diagnosing the problem, right? And so when I ask them, well, that's great, if there was one thing that could happen that could change this, right, that could actually address the problem, they often scratch their head. And so often the starting frame is often focusing just on the problem and not actually focusing on the solution or the idea. And so coming up with an idea. And this is why I start the book on how to identify good change making ideas or goals. And I teach people how to formulate initial ideas into actionable goals. I put this at the start of the book and I also encourage people not to water it down. There's an assumption that goals have to be incremental. But actually, I think one of my friends, Ari Robinson, used to head up Junior Chamber International. He talks about the power of naively audacious goals. And basically his theory is, in a world on fire, in a world on chaos, where people are crying out for solutions, if you can show them a very clear, naively audacious goal. And it will also almost appear through the fog like a magnet, right, A lightning rod, and people will rally around that and come out of the woodwork to help you. And I've seen it again and again, examples of people focusing on very clear cut ideas, formulating it as a goal and then having conversations. And these are people who may not have access to power, they may not have access to money, they may not have access to, to influencers or large stages, but over time they're almost able to build coalitions of support to remedy their shortfalls, to bring these ideas to life. And so I think the first thing we have to do is we have to flip our mindset. And it sounds trite and it sounds cliched, but the number of times I've interviewed people and spoken to them and they've shared their experiences with me, saying as soon as they formulated it into a solution and the problem and started having these conversations, they were amazed by the people they were able to rally around. And I think it's also the fact that research shows this as well. One of the best ways to instill a bias for action in others is to talk about something actionable we can all do. So I think when we look at these problems, it's okay, question of, how do we boil this down? And again, coming back to that point I made earlier, no one can do everything, but everyone can do something. And so that, to me, is the big starting point of where we can begin. I would say the second point is, and this builds on that is I genuinely believe right now people are yearning for community, they're yearning for connection. I don't know, Kevin, if you've come across the work of Robert Putnam, the social studies scientist Robert Putnam, he's most famous. He wrote a book called bowl and Alone about two decades ago. If you haven't come across it, there was a great Netflix movie that came out last year called Join or Die, which is. I think it's available on other streaming networks. But the theory, the philosophy behind Robert Putnam and Join or Die is that when you look at polarization, you look at loneliness, you look at depression, anxiety, stress, you look at all these ills, you look at apathy and indifference. He says there is one trend that overlaps all of this at the same time over the last five decades. What was that trend? He says it was a decline in civic engagement. In more simple terms, people stop joining clubs. They stopped going to the bowling club. They stopped joining the Veterans League, we call it rsl, Returned Servicemen's League in Australia. They stopped going to the Rotary Club, they stopped going to the Lions Club, the sports club. And it's because we all got busy. We got obsessed with our phones and social media. We got watching tv. I'm not saying that the answer is okay, we need to go out and create those clubs because it's a different world, it's a different time. But I genuinely think by giving people community, and I see it, and surrounding people with an activity, a shared activity, building community around that is one of the ways in which we can address these issues. And that could be a goal, it could be a club, it could be a community. I mean, this is what we're trying to do at Global Citizen because again, the studies all show one of the best ways to motivate others is to be around others who are making a difference, who are doing something. And this can be very practical, everyday life. Last week I was speaking at a conference, the Global Volunteering Summit, and I was hearing these statistics on volunteering in workplaces. And over the last few years, volunteering in many workplaces, the desire from it has shot up and businesses are wondering how they can do this. And it's because I asked some of these heads of HR and they said, you know what things like social gatherings, like getting people to after work drinks, none of that stuff works because they go and they start drinking their sorrows and they start talking about the problems Together, you give people a volunteer day to do a shared activity together and to bond around an activity. Well, that builds reciprocity, that builds mutual trust, and it reinforces that our actions can make a difference. And so I think one of the biggest things we can do is find ways to invent that community to get people working around shared activities. And, of course, this is something we're doing, but I think it's others can do it. You know, I just spoke to this incredible advocate the other day in Colorado who's working on community gardens and is using community gardens as an outlet to engage people. And there's probably lots of other ideas out there as well.

B (33:28)

Yeah, we did something similar at our team retreat last year. We had about two hours that we spent. We found a local charity that feeds the hungry. And so we spent two hours stuffing food into paper bags to feed the hungry in the area. And we also made donations. And so I was like, well, guys, whatever you guys decide to donate, you know, I'll match.

A (33:51)

Wow.

B (33:51)

Then it became a competition. Now, little did I know that my assistant was like, let's make sure Kevin writes a really big check today. And she went around to every single one of them and got them started to write a $5,000 check for the day. But I was shocked at how everybody, when we were talking about, what are we going to do next year, everybody's like, well, let's do something. What's our new charity? What are we doing? That was their top of mind. So I'm. I'm glad you said that and reminded me of what we did last year. It was very powerful way to get together, and everybody felt good after the meeting. They talked about it a lot.

A (34:20)

There's a TV show on YouTube. It's called Happiness, and it was released on YouTube last year. A series. And someone with better understanding of the chemicals that go into our brain that make us all happy can speak in much better clarity than I can on this. But there's all the hormones, right? We need to create happiness. It's oxytocin, it's dopamine. You need all those things in balance. Right? And that's what contributes to sustained happiness. And again, it's cliched, it's trite. But doing good. Doing good with other people is one way to generate happiness. And so I think, you know, the answer to many of these issues we face. You know, Robert Putnam was onto something when he said, it probably can link back to some simple solutions, and it probably is rooted. You know, it's funny. I wasn't really explicit. I think I was still defining this when I wrote a book. And of course, as you know, writing a book is the start of a conversation, it's not an end. But there was some feedback people gave me again and again. And they said, there's a word that is almost coming through on every page of your book and it is community. And it's funny, when I wrote the book, that wasn't my intention, but that was takeaway from it. And so I think there is something powerful there.

B (35:37)

Well, I wrote it down because we have a blind blaming community that we created where people are helping each other to find their root cause, their hidden truth. And it's pretty wild. We're even coming up with a certification because our goal is very simple, to reach 10 million people, find their hidden truth to empower their success and hopefully have a major impact on society as well. So it's been fun to get people behind that. And in fact, there's a chapter in the book called From Negativity to Possibilities. And basically it's telling people to keep it really simple and brief. Stop blaming, stop complaining, no excuses, and focus on solutions. But as I've worked with different people, and I'm sure you have, you've worked with world leaders, celebrities and activists. But can you share an example of when somebody was focused on the wrong solution and how you got them back to where it focused on the right one?

A (36:28)

I'll share a story of how someone did exactly that. And I was someone watching in awe. So one of the leaders I've had the incredible pleasure of working with over the last few years is the Prime Minister of Barbados, Mir Motley. Now, I know when I say Prime Minister, there'll probably be some in your audience listening on, thinking, oh, but she's a Prime Minister, she's a head of state, so of course people are going to listen to her. But let me just put this in perspective. Barbados has 300,000 people. And to find a city in America with the same economic clout as Barbados, so the equivalent in size of economy, you would have to go 360 cities down to Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, to find a city with the same size economy as Barbados. And so my point is, when the Prime Minister is going to Washington, D.C. she knows she is going in basically with the same clout as the mayor of Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. Right. So just to put it in perspective.

B (37:27)

Before you dismiss it, before you judge the title.

A (37:29)

Got it, Exactly. So Prime Minister of Barbados, she has this one idea, a simple idea. Basically, she says, my nation, like many nations in the Caribbean, we have all of these loan agreements. We're heavily in debt, and when we get hit by a hurricane, the we face the decision, do we repay this loan or do we put money into recovery and then default on those loans and suffer further economic damage? And so she had this simple idea. She wanted to go to all of the people who basically she has loans from and ask them for a simple grace period. If I'm hit by a hurricane, give me two years pause to recover before I have to pay back my. The rest of the loan, right? So she takes us to Washington. She meets with then President Joe Biden, Secretary of Treasury Janet Yellen walks out there. I think even though some nice things were said, I think they forget about the conversation as soon as she's left the building. She goes to number 10 Downing street in the United Kingdom. They don't even say any nice words. They just say, we're not doing this. She goes to Paris and she meets with the President of France, Manuel Macron. And at that time in Paris, by the way, he's deeply unpopular, probably still is. People are protesting in the streets, they're burning cars, all of this, right? And she says to President Macron, I'll make a deal if you can bring all the banks together, the people I hold loans with, for a day, to convince them to introduce these pause clauses as she was calling them. I will sing from the rooftops. I will give you praise and let everyone know the important role you've played for these small island nations. So she does that, and she asks us at Global Citizen, she says, can you organize basically this big event the night before to put pressure on these banks? Tell them we're watching. So we get Billie Eilish, Lenny Kravitz. We get 20,000 people in front of the Eiffel Tower. And as she's about to go on stage, she says to me, I'm going to go out. The first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to thank French President Emmanuel Macron. The thing you have to understand about this audience is it is an audience of climate activists. Greta Thunberg's in the audience, right? And again, what we were talking about, purity test, all of that earlier on, I'm like, oh, Prime Minister, I don't think that's a good idea in person. This isn't going to end well. But she's like, no private candor, public support. She goes out on stage and. And she has with her RJ Benga, the former CEO of MasterCard. Now the President of the World Bank. And he's there to actually show the young people I'm responding. I'm going to be the first bank to jump on board this. She gets on stage, grabs the microphone. 20,000 people. And what does she do? She begins by thanking President Macron. This audience goes quiet, like it's one way to kill the joy. It just goes quiet. And then someone in the front row cheers out, macron must resign. And the whole audience starts chanting, macron must resign. Macron must resign. And you imagine this. It's like this war of boos and jeers, right when you're speaking. 20,000 people. And motley, Prime Minister, Barbados. She just holds the ground, grabs the microphone. I mean, RJ Banga, I'm pretty sure is probably looking around, being like, this isn't what I signed up for. But Motley, she above the noise, she says, my friends, you might very well think that. But let me tell you this. I went to Washington, I went to London, I went around the world, and no one gave a damn for nations like mine. That man over there, he is the only one who bothered to do anything. So whether you like it or not, that is our reality as small island nations. Again, crowd went silent. And you can almost see people, like, looking around, being like, oh, maybe, like.

B (41:26)

What am I supposed to say?

A (41:27)

And then it was funny because then someone started cheering, clapping, and then the rest of the audience suddenly started clapping. RJ Banger grabs the microphone. From wanting to run off the stage to getting on the stage. He announces that he will be the first one to introduce these pause clauses over the next 24 hours. All the other big banks and institutions do. And I think for Barbados, that's the equivalent of, like, $700 million that they won't have to repay if they're hit by a hurricane. And it's funny. I told that story before, and someone reacted to it, and she like, okay, they weren't clapping for Macron, but they were clapping because she had reminded them of what they were there to do. Someone from Barbados, that put it in more simple terms. They said, yeah, that's our prime minister. Put in those young people in their place and reminded them that they're there to change people's lives.

B (42:21)

Well, I liked what you said before I wrote it down. Are we here to win arguments or we're here to change the world? Or however you said it, I'm not butchered your quote. But that one I wrote down, I might have to ethically swipe and redeploy that one. I'll give you credit. No, I was really well said, because I see that and a lot of our listeners are in corporate America. They're in their own business. They are struggling with relationships. The stuff that you've taught today can impact every part of their life. Everything you've shared today isn't just about making an impact globally. I think it could be making an impact at home and in your business or with a coworker. Are we here to win arguments or are we here to live a better life? Are we here to make a difference for our customers? So incredible advice. So everything you mentioned today, including your books, which I'm going to go get, you said it was bowling alone, right?

A (43:09)

Yeah. Ballin Alone by Robert Putnam and Join or Die is a documentary summarizing his findings. It's available on Netflix, I believe.

B (43:17)

Yeah, that was really cool. I can't wait to read that. Because civil engagement is down. I think because we spend so much time on our phone. There's a lot of kids in the United States who don't get their driver's license. Like, when we were ready to drive because we wanted to get out of the house, we needed that to go have our social engagement. We had to leave the house. They don't have to do that to get that feeling anymore. So I don't know how we change that, but it'll be interesting to see what happens.

A (43:39)

I remember in the early days of Global Citizen, you know, it was volunteers. It was at university, we were doing in Australia, we call it Sausage Sizzles. Like, just sausages, a slice of bread, tomato ketchup, simple. But we were doing these activities and we really did have a belief as young people then, like, yeah, wow, we can change the world. And today, when I go out to universities speaking about the book, I hear young people and they say, oh, the world's going to be worse off. What's the point? And I'm like, man, if we don't have our young people believing in the crazy ideas, then where are we as a society? Because when you're young, that is the time for dreaming big. And too much of the conversation seems calling out our professors and trying to get these false wins so that we can go to the pub and say, oh, I bullied this person into admitting that they were wrong, or they shouldn't engage with that. And it's like, guys, come on, let's put the solutions. Let's put the big ideas. And I think to your point, the follow on from that point about, do you want to win an Argument or change the world is also just a reminder that in conversations it's less important, often about winning debates and scoring points. And it's actually more important about how people are left feeling after these conversations. It's about how people feel.

B (44:55)

Feel.

A (44:56)

It's that feeling that's what will stick with people long after because they will forget the details. And that's what we often lose sight of as well.

B (45:05)

So, well, you just gave us some advice on how we can change it. But I'm with you there. I see a lot of kids who've lost hope. I don't know why I'm doing this anyway. I'm like, because you, you can make a difference. You just have to decide that's what you want to do. Part of that, when I go into that RCD method, reflect, connect, and the third step is decide. You have to decide to do something. We get a little colorful with the language. We call it mfd. Make an effing decision to do something. And I think that's what people have to do.

A (45:34)

And rather than obsessing around what other choices and decisions others are making, what other decisions and choices that you'll be.

B (45:41)

Making or what's going to happen if I do this? What if I fail? What if you don't?

A (45:46)

It's funny, I still remember this story. David Beasley, the former governor of South Carolina who headed up the World Food Program. And I talk about him in the book. He's this incredible character and incredible fundraiser. I think he doubled the amount that the World Food Program raised during his time heading it up. Yeah, I mean, he's one of those guys, you know, regardless of your politics, everyone likes him. He's good to be around. And I remember walking through the sidewalk of New York with him when he first got the job. And he was telling me this story about, and again, I'm probably going to butcher it. And it's. Apparently it's a well known story because he was surprised I had never heard it. But it's the dad and his son walking along a beach and he says, there's starfishes on the beach. And of course, without getting back into the water, they're all going to die. His son says, oh, dad, there's nothing you can do. Like, you know, you're not going to make a difference. And he picks up one and he froze it into the water. And he goes, well, it did make a difference to that one starfish, you know.

B (46:48)

Oh, that's good. Yeah, that's a great story. Awesome. Well, anything else you want to leave the listeners with.

A (46:54)

When I first came to America, I saw this magnet, fridge magnet, and it was from Eleanor Roosevelt. And I still have this fridge magnet on my fridge. And it's the way to begin is to begin. And I think often we let these questions paralyze us and we don't know where the end is going to be, and that's okay. But if we can take the first action, often the momentum from that will trigger all of these other actions as well. And so I think the book, it doesn't aim to have all the answers. It's not comprehensive. It's a crisp 186 pages. It's also available on Audible, but it just aims to give people a start, a place to begin. And to any of your listeners, if they've got great stories, reflections, love to hear from them as well. I'm on LinkedIn Instagram. I run a substack as well and you can find me@michaelsheldrick.com book to find out more about the book too. But this has been great and I've learned so much more. Like, this has been fun and it seems like we're on the same page. It seems like our books. Yeah, we're speaking a similar language.

B (48:03)

I can't wait for you to read it. I'll make sure I get you a copy.

A (48:06)

Well, looking forward to it and thanks so much for the opportunity. This has been incredible.