Podcast Summary: Beyond Blind Blaming with Kevin D. St.Clergy

Episode: Stop Playing Small: How to Claim Your Space in Leadership and Thrive
Guest: Sally Helgesen
Date: November 4, 2025

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode features leadership authority Sally Helgesen discussing the hidden mindset traps and behavioral patterns that often keep high-achieving professionals—especially women—from stepping fully into their leadership potential. The conversation focuses on patterns identified in her bestselling book "How Women Rise," and explores actionable ways to move from self-limiting habits to empowered, visible, and impactful leadership.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Motivation for Leadership Research

[03:00]

• Sally began studying leadership in the 1980s after observing that talented women were often overlooked in organizations.
• The norm: women were expected to be good workers but not visible leaders.
• Her first book challenged the era’s advice that women should “be like men” and instead spotlighted the unique leadership strengths women bring.

“All the books written at that time focused on what women had to learn, how we had to change in order to become successful...I thought the best way...might be to write a book about what the very small handful of successful women leaders were contributing.”
— Sally Helgesen [03:53]

2. The Reluctance to Claim Achievements

[06:26]

• A central habit holding women back is their reluctance to claim achievements, fearing they’ll seem arrogant or take credit from their team.
• Women often default to modesty or deflect to team effort exclusively, when it’s possible to embrace both personal and collective contributions.

“Either you're an obnoxious jerk...or you're just sitting there and trying to project a very modest exterior. It's not an either or. There's a both and.”
— Sally Helgesen [06:47]

• Kevin shares his own discomfort about self-promotion on stage, echoing the dilemma between humility and visibility.

3. Expecting Others to Notice & Reward Contributions

[08:42]

• Outsourcing recognition is risky. In modern, often virtual, workplaces, expecting others to notice your work leads to lack of recognition, disengagement, and undervaluing.
• Sally recommends explicitly and comfortably sharing both team and individual contributions. Using the language of “contributions” rather than “achievements” can feel more inclusive and authentic.

“We never then learn to be advocates for ourselves because we are expecting them to do it...And over time we'll disengage. It's hard to remain engaged in and passionate about a job where you feel you're not recognized for what you're doing.”
— Sally Helgesen [09:51]

4. The Pitfall of Overvaluing Expertise

[12:58]

• High performers sometimes believe being great at their core job is enough to guarantee advancement, neglecting the importance of visibility and connections.
• True leadership growth rests on three pillars: expertise, visibility, and relationships.

“Careers are really built on three legs: there's visibility, there's connections, and there's expertise. And expertise is very important...But you also need to make sure that you have some visibility and that you build good connections.”
— Sally Helgesen [14:19]

5. Building vs. Leveraging Relationships

[16:03]

• Women are often excellent relationship-builders but hesitate to leverage these networks for help, information, or career advancement, fearing they’ll seem “too transactional” or self-serving.
• There’s a spectrum between selfless friend and opportunistic networker—asking for support can be mutually valuable.

“Either I'm someone who's seeking to take advantage of everybody or...I'm a true friend who never makes any request. And...the most successful people were extremely good at the exchange of favors.”
— Sally Helgesen [17:57]

• Kevin highlights that most people are happy to help and don’t perceive help-seeking as “using” others.

6. The “Disease to Please”

[20:46]

• The compulsion to say yes and please everyone can undermine both personal effectiveness and leadership authority, especially as roles grow in influence and scope.
• Pleasers struggle to set boundaries, delegate, and protect their own time and energy.

“There's nothing wrong with being a wonderful person. Obviously, we want to be wonderful people, but privileging having everyone think we are a wonderful person above doing what will make us effective is not a good way to go through life.”
— Sally Helgesen [20:47]

• Addressing this requires help and accountability from others; developing boundaries around time and energy is essential.

7. Perfectionism & Solving the “Wrong Problem”

[26:57]

• Sally recounts a story of putting all her energy into giving a perfect speech—missing the real opportunity to connect with her audience.
• Trying to do the wrong thing perfectly (rather than the right thing well) is a common trap in leadership.

“I was devoting 100% of my energy to trying to do the wrong thing, as you say, perfectly...whereas what this really was was an opportunity to interact with an audience, teach them something that could be useful to them and make them feel good about themselves.”
— Sally Helgesen [28:12]

8. Overcoming Blind Spots

[31:35]

• The path to identifying blind spots: Ask for feedback, regularly and in small doses, from people you trust.
• Seeking feedback advertises your commitment to growth and change.

“Develop the habit of soliciting small amounts of feedback constantly...It's also how we learn we aren't necessarily perceived by others in the exact way we think we are.”
— Sally Helgesen [32:01]

9. Modern Leadership Challenges

[33:33]

• Rising disengagement, leaner organizations, and changing generational expectations are the modern context for leadership.
• Younger professionals expect work with meaning and engagement—not just compensation.

“The younger generation at work really wants to feel as if their work matters, as if their work has a role to play in making the world a better place.”
— Sally Helgesen [34:24]

• Leaders must realize employee engagement is a leadership—not just an HR—issue.

10. Generational Myths & Motivation

[35:27]

• The myth that younger generations don't want to work is unfounded; rather, they want their work and contributions to matter.
• Organizations must offer inspiration, meaning, and autonomy—not insist on outdated work norms.

“It's not that they don't want to work anymore. They just don't want to work for you.”
— Kevin D. St.Clergy [35:27]

“They want to be passionately engaged, and they want to be engaged from their center...”
— Sally Helgesen [37:29]

11. Investing in Personal Growth

[38:16]

• Sally prefers reading to other growth strategies and credits reading as the foundation of her expertise.
• Shares that the demand for authentic, author-read audiobooks is high, as people want to connect personally with thought leaders.

“I read. That's what I do. That's what I've been doing my whole life. That's why I became a writer.”
— Sally Helgesen [38:23]

Memorable Quotes

• “If we're reluctant to claim our achievements, we may outsource the noticing of our achievements to other people and expect them to notice and reward us.”
  — Sally Helgesen [00:00]
• “It's not an either or. There's a both and.”
  — Sally Helgesen [06:47]
• “You can't do it alone.”
  — Sally Helgesen [33:15]

Notable Moments & Timestamps

• [05:14]: Kevin offers to buy Sally’s book for listeners who need it, underscoring its value.
• [10:59]: Introduction of the language shift: “contributions” vs. “achievements.”
• [20:46]: Sally’s exploration of how “disease to please” and perfectionism become toxic at higher levels.
• [26:57]: The anecdote about sharing a stage with Marshall Goldsmith, realizing she focused on the wrong goal.
• [35:27]: Kevin’s blunt advice to leaders: “It's not that they don't want to work anymore. They just don't want to work for you.”
• [38:23]: Sally on investing in personal growth: “I read. That’s what I do.”

Actionable Takeaways

• Embrace and articulate your contributions—don’t wait for recognition.
• Use language that feels authentic and inclusive to describe your achievements (“contributions,” “information”).
• Invest in visibility and relationships, not just technical expertise.
• Learn to ask for feedback and support regularly—even for small improvements.
• Set boundaries to manage your time and energy, especially as responsibilities grow.
• Leaders must recognize and adapt to new engagement expectations—work must be meaningful.
• Invest in self-growth in ways that resonate with you, whether reading, listening, or connecting with others.

How to Connect with Sally Helgesen

• Website: sallyhelgesen.com (Contact button links directly to her email)
• Substack: Subscribe to her leadership insights and interact directly.

This episode is essential listening (or reading!) for any professional seeking to identify and overcome hidden barriers to leadership, relation-building, and personal growth. Sally Helgesen’s expertise provides not just insight but real tools and language for stepping beyond “blind blaming” and into purposeful, influential leadership.