← Beyond Blind Blaming
Beyond Blind Blaming
Stop Playing Small: How to Claim Your Space in Leadership and Thrive | Sally Helgesen
00:42:30
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If we're reluctant to claim our achievements, we may outsource the noticing of our achievements to other people and expect them to notice and reward us.
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Today I'm joined by Sally Helgeson. She is a renowned leadership expert, bestselling author, and a leading authority on women's leadership.
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When you're a girl, you can contribute, but don't talk about it. Always give the credit to your team or the people who helped you. This is the fundamental habit I believe, that gets in women's ways. We never then learn to be advocates for ourselves. Either you're an obnoxious jerk who's talking about well then I did this and the president of so&So invited me to and flew me there in his private plane, or you're just sitting there and trying to project a very modest exterior. It's not an either or. There's a both. And I've been around a very long time and seen a lot of people who had successful careers, and what I notice is that.
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Welcome to Beyond Blind Blaming. This is the place where we explore how easily truths can hold us back, trapping us in cycles of frustration and blame, often without realizing what's truly stopping us. Each week I'm joined by experts and professionals who share their journey of taking back control of their story, overcoming hidden challenges, and stopping blind blame from dictating their outcomes. The insights you're about to gain will help you see beyond your current limitations, find the courage to seek new perspectives, and ultimately live a life that's both purposeful and powerful. So if you're ready to break free from blind blaming and discover what's possible, you'll definitely want to listen to my next guest. I'm your host, Kevin St. Clergy, and today I'm joined by Sally Helgeson. She is a renowned leadership expert, bestselling author, and a leading authority on women's leadership. For over 35 years, Sally's worked with corporations, nonprofits, and governments around the world to help build more inclusive, effective and successful leaders. She's the author of multiple books, including How Women Rise, co authored with Marshall Goldsmith, which identifies habits that hold women back from advancing in their careers. Her work focuses on helping individuals and organizations recognize unseen barriers to success and equip them with the strategies that overcome them. Named one of the best leadership thinkers by Forbes, Sally's insights have helped countless professionals break through limitations and embrace their full potential. She continues to be a powerful voice in leadership development. She challenging conventional wisdom and helping people at all levels rise. Sally, welcome to the show.
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Thank you, Kevin. It's wonderful to be here.
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B
Well, from what I've read, you've been studying and writing about leadership for decades. What led you to this work and what keeps you passionate about it today?
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What led me to the work was my own experience in the 1980s as a woman working in corporate communications. It wasn't that my own path was so frustrating, but the organizations I worked with, there were so many talented women there, me included. And I noticed that they didn't seem to have any clue as to what these women could be contributing in terms of ideas, in terms of strategy, in terms of thought leadership. It was all piling work on you and patting you on the head if you did a good job. And I had a couple ideas I knew were very powerful that I suggested in meetings. No one ever took up on them. They're just like, okay, and then move on to the next. And I saw that happen in meetings. This was in the mid-80s, and I thought, we need to find a way to help organizations understand what women have to contribute as leaders, not just workers. That was becoming more accepted that women would be working in organizations. So I thought that the best way to do that might be to write a book about what the very small handful of successful women leaders were contributing, what was specific that they brought to leadership that was so effective. And I thought that this would be important because organizations were changing at the time because. Because of the technology. We're just at the beginning of where we had desktop computers. So I quit my job. I wrote a book called the Female Women's Ways of Leadership, outlining the skills that women had to contribute. And it was extremely successful, I think, because all the books written at that time focused on what women had to learn, how we had to change in order to become successful. You know, it was the bow tie era. Women were supposed to be like men. There were women's leadership training as it existed, was mostly of classes and how to talk about football, stuff like that. So the book became successful, set me on a path, and I just loved it.
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B
Well, I loved your book that I read recently, How Women rise, which identifies 12 habits that hold women back in their careers. And I encourage everyone to read the book. In fact, if you're going through a tough time and you need some help, I will buy the book for you. I think it's that important to read, but I'd like to spend a little time on the concepts of some of the things that I really took away. And by the way, I think men should read this, too.
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I agree.
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So the first chapter really hit home for me. And I'm going to tell you a quick story and then we'll get into it. But I speak all over the world on different concepts and especially on the newest one. Blind blaming. I've always worked with a speaking coach for the last 10 years. And recently a speaking coach said, you know, Kevin, where was the guy last night that was drinking wine? Because when you get up on stage you just totally go flat. And I was like, well, I never wanted to be. My words as a self adulating douche, I never wanted to be that guy that's just bragging about himself and his accomplishments and everything else. And the whole audience that was there because we were doing a group coaching session were like, kevin, we like to hear about your achievements. It's actually pretty impressive. Why do you feel that way? And it just led me down this path. When I read this first chapter, it really hit home for me. So you want to talk about that? Why women are reluctant to claim their achievements.
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This is the fundamental habit, I believe, that gets in women's ways. We have 12 in the book. But this reluctance to claim your achievements and its sort of evil twin expecting others to spontaneously notice and value your contributions because you don't want to talk about them, this is very, very common with women. And it often comes from you've had pushback, you know, like, well, you sound pretty arrogant. From men who are not comfortable hearing women talk about what their achievements are. It's also that it's not that encouraged. When you're a girl, you can contribute, but don't talk about it. Always give the credit to your team or the people who helped you. And that's the other thing that holds women back from speaking about their accomplishments is they're worried that they'll take something away from their team. After all, we work in teams. That's the reality. And we're urged to give the team credit. So you hear over and over, you did a great job. Oh, it wasn't me, it was my team. But it's not an either or, it's a both and. And that's kind of what I'm hearing from your story about getting up on stage. Either you're an obnoxious jerk who's talking, well, then I did this and the president of so and so invited me to and flew me there in his private plane, or you're just sitting there and trying to project a very modest exterior. It's not an either or. There's a both and and if you're concerned about your team Your team made a contribution, but you made a contribution. You were part of the team. So it's really important to learn and what I have subsequently learned because I also have spoken all over the world and this book, it's in 26 languages that there are techniques you can use that get you past that either or. And again, people like it. It's not that they're going like, oh, what a braggart. They're thinking, oh, how interesting. I wonder how she did that. I wonder how I could do it.
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B
The next chapter, really at home too, expecting others to spontaneously notice and reward your contributions. Talk to us about that.
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Well, this is something that's highly problematic because it's a kind of passive default that we outsource. If we're reluctant to claim our achievements, we may outsource the noticing of our achievements to other people and expect them to notice and reward us. We don't have to tell our boss about what a successful time we had selling a product or impressing a potential customer. We don't have to tell them. We expect someone else will tell them. Well, guess what? People don't necessarily. Maybe they don't notice what you're doing. That's particularly true in an era where so many of us are working at least part time virtually. It's hard to get notice. And secondly, we never then learn to be advocates for ourselves because we are expecting them to do it. This is also very dangerous because if we don't have others constantly lauding us for things that they have no way of actually knowing that we've done, then we may start to feel under recognized. And when we feel under recognized, we feel undervalued or we are undervalued because people don't know what we're contributing. And over time we'll disengage. It's hard to remain engaged in and passionate about a job where you feel you're not recognized for what you're doing. So it's a very dangerous place to be in. And we need to create situations where we have the ability to be recognized and feel comfortable saying, for example, our team was able to achieve these results. We met this benchmark. Some of the outcomes were X, Y and Z in terms of customer approval or the financial outcome. My contribution was and get comfortable with that kind of language. I find that women and people like yourself who are often turned off by the I did this, I did that way of reacting, using a word like contribution as opposed to my achievements. It sort of embeds it in a larger group effort. So there are lots of ways we can all move away from that. And we don't want to cede all the territory to the people who are most likely to talk about themselves. That's not a good idea for us or for our organizations.
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B
I love the word contributions. In my new book, I say words matter. It's actually a part in the book. And I think just switching to that word makes a big difference. Probably give people the confidence to start talking about what they've done. But I've always taught leaders, Everybody should have three to five what we call most valuable activities, MBAs, and then three to five measurements of success so that they always know how they're doing. But I'm finding that maybe 10, 20% of the people out there actually do that. So your approach to make sure they're communicating their contributions is excellent.
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A
Thank you. There's another word that's very valuable in that way, and that word is information. So you can go up to somebody and say, I wanted to give you some information about what I found really helpful in dealing with that particular client. When I was in this situation, what seemed to resonate with them and what they really picked up on and what they liked and what closed the deal was when I said this. So I just wanted to give you that information because I thought that could be helpful. So you're framing it as information that can be helpful to another person, but it is in fact a success that you have had. So it's a good way of spreading that around. So I think it's often a matter of, as you say, the language we choose and then also having ways of measuring success for ourselves.
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Well, I do want people to read the book, but just a few more chapters that really hit home for me. Overvaluing your expertise in the next chapter seems to keep women stuck. And I don't think it's just women, I think it's everyone. But I thought it was very interesting. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?
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Well, certainly. And that's one thing I've really seen since the book came out is that it's not just women. And especially with men who are in jobs where they just, they're scientists, they just want to do science, they're an engineer, they just want to solve the problems before them. They're an accountant. They judge themselves based on how well they do the numbers, whatever that is. If they're not in a sales or, you know, big customer facing position, they often just, all I need to do is to do my best work and then I will Be promoted and I will have a satisfying career path. I don't need to focus on visibility or building lots of relationships or strong relationships. I just need to focus on being the best at my job. And I think this fundamentally, it's a mistaken view of how organizations work. I've been around a very long time and seen a lot of people who had successful careers. And what I notice is that those careers are really built on three legs. There's visibility, there's connections, and there's expertise. And expertise is very important. You need to be good at your job. Nobody's going to. Well, unless the fix is in or something, nobody's going to promote you if you're poor at doing your job. But you also need to make sure that you have some visibility and that you build good connections. If you want to move on, if you have other aspirations, if you believe you could make a larger contribution with more authority, influence, or scope, you need to build connections. It's not just going to happen because you're sitting there doing your best work. It can also make us feel as if something's unfair. Wait a minute. How did that person get promoted? I did a much better job on X. Well, that's fine, but maybe that person got promoted because people knew more about what they did and because they had built connections throughout their organization or outside their organization, in their community, in their sector that were helpful to them. So it's part of the bigger package.
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B
Well, now let's talk about building versus leveraging relationships, which again, I think goes back to identity. I don't know if you've ever read the book called the Mountain is you. No, I highly recommend it for our listeners. But the first chapter is called self sabotage. And what they talk about is at the root cause of self sabotage is how we identify with someone. And you start talking a lot about, I don't want statements. For example, I don't want others to think that I'm using them. I don't want people to think I'm only after for what they can do for me. And I think deep down inside they're saying, I don't want to be that person that I don't like. And you're talking about leveraging relationships. That was what I got. Tell me again if I got it wrong. And I want you to talk about leveraging versus building relationships because I really enjoyed that chapter too. I loved your whole book, but that chapter was like, wow, okay, this is really, really good. So keep going.
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A
You know, actually, that was my favorite chapter as well. I had Always wondered, you know, I knew from working on the female advantage and a lot of the earlier work I'd done, which was on what women's strengths were, I knew that women often tended to build strong relationships and I felt that this would be more of an advantage to them. As we went into the 90s and the first decade of the 2000s, when relationship building became acknowledged as an important skill to have in organizations, they used to never talk about it. It used to always be dismissed as a soft skill that had nothing to do with leadership. I know it seems weird now, but that was how it was. So I thought women would benefit more and I couldn't figure out why not. Why aren't women soaring, given their ability to often build very strong relationships? And then I realized, just from listening to people from women in the workshops and programs I did, is that they would build all these relationships, but they'd never engage them for help, either tactically, that is, job related or strategically. Even more important, strategically career related. They'd never say, I'm thinking of applying to this for this job in the company. It could be internal, something that posted or out of the company. I'm thinking of doing that. Do you know anyone who might be helpful to me and thinking about that, learning about what is involved with that job or who I might need to know or what skills I might need to have? They weren't asking those things. So I started asking my workshops. Are you good at this? No, no, I'm not good at this. Every once in a while you get someone who was. But most women in the workshops I had at all levels would say, I'm not really good at that. Well, why not? Well, I don't want to be the kind of person who. So it's those statements that you're talking about. Again, it's an either or. Either I'm someone who's seeking to take advantage of everybody or. Or I'm a true friend who never makes any request. And what I would find is that the most successful people were extremely good at the sort of exchange of favors and saying, could you help me on this? Or can you introduce me to that person? Or oh, I met somebody at an event last night and I think they might be helpful to you. And seeing that almost, it sounds too transactional, but seeing it almost as a favor that you have in the bank. And I think that is often, from what I've seen is women. And this is getting less true. And it's also, as you point out, true for many men that they're more comfortable doing that. If they're working for a nonprofit they really believe in, they'll go up and ask somebody for money if they're on the board of a domestic abuse center, a shelter for people who are domestically abused. But in terms of their jobs, they'll be reluctant for that. And it's just what you say. I don't want to be the kind of person who. I want people to know that I value them as friends. I'm not a user. There is a big range in between. And if we feel strongly committed to the idea of reaching our full potential, then we really need to learn this skill in a way that's comfortable for us.
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And I think it also goes back to 99% of the things we worry about aren't true. And I think that a lot of people don't think that way. When you ask for help or you're doing those things, people aren't thinking, oh, God, this person's totally using me. That's in us.
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I agree with that. People are thinking, I'm so glad they think of me as enough of a friend to ask, or how wonderful I'm able to do this favor for this person. And in the back of their mind, of course, is people want you to be more successful. Why? Because then they know you well.
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Last chapter. Because, as I said, I do want people to buy the book, or I'll buy it for them. But this one, I just love the title and I love the chapter itself again. But I'd like to discuss the disease to please and how that holds not only women, but all people back. And I'm really guilty of this one. You really tore my inner core with your book. I'm like, oh, God, I used to say yes to everything and to everyone and put everybody first before me. That's what's led me to lose 35 pounds this year, is because I finally put myself first for the first time in my 52 years on the planet. But you know what? It didn't really make anybody mad. They're actually very supportive. So, anyway, talk about that chapter just a little bit for the audience.
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There's nothing wrong with being a wonderful person. Obviously, we want to be wonderful people, but. But privileging having everyone think we are a wonderful person above doing what will make us effective is not a good way to go through life. In the book, there are 12 habits, and I identify two, and I don't think I really realized it when I was writing the book. There are two that are really toxic as you move forward in your career. And these are perfection. And the disease to please. The disease to please is a classic what got you here won't get you there behavior, in that it can help you succeed because people like you and they're really taken with you. They think you're terrific because you're a pleaser. So you're always willing to say yes, however much it doesn't fit with what your bigger objectives are, or takes so much time away from what you should be doing that it's not working for you. But as you become, as you move higher and as you have more authority, more influence and more scope, you get more requests and you need to delegate. And it's very hard to turn down requests if you're a pleaser. You don't even have the word no in your vocabulary. And it's also, you don't just give away a lot of your time, but you have a hard time delegating because, oh, you know, I know she's been very busy this week, so I'm not going to ask her to do this. I'm not going to add this to her burden or, okay, that job wasn't really done right this time, but I know she had extenuating circumstances, and I can clean it up myself. So. Perfectionists have a hard time delegating because everything has to be done absolutely perfectly. And how can you trust other people to do something well? But pleasers have a hard time delegating because they figure that, well, it'd be hard or. Last time I asked him to do this, he didn't seem that happy. And, you know, I want him to really be part of our team and feel good about our work so I can get it done myself this time. And I've met pleasers who were literally doing their last job because their clients loved them even as they had a new job, because it's so difficult to disappoint people. And what's particularly challenging about this habit is that if we're a pleaser at work, we're probably a pleaser at home. So we're getting kind of more pushed around than we should be by our children and the people in our family and trying to accommodate wishes that really undermine us and probably ultimately undermine them as well. So pleasing is a very tough behavior to address. I have a lot of clues in the book for how to do it. We need help with it. We can't do it on our own. We have to tell the people we please that we're working on our pleasing behavior and to please support us in that and get some help. And we need to think about what our boundaries are and what are my responsibilities now and at this time and how can I protect those boundaries? How can I protect my time and my energy? Energy is as important as time there.
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Energy management is a big thing that I've just discovered this year and it's changed my life. There's a book I read called Buy Back youk Time. I don't know if you've read that excellent book, especially for entrepreneurs. And he talks a lot about you keep pulling things back and doing it yourself, but 80% as good as you is a hundred percent great. So if you can just help people get to 80% as good as you, nobody's going to be as good as you. But you also have to look in the mirror and say, well, gosh, you know, did I create videos to teach them how to do this correctly? Did I really put systems or standard operating procedures in place to make sure that it's done the way that I want? And when I started doing that, all of a sudden my assistants and my team members started doing the things that I want. And many times they did it better than I did.
- [24:56]
A
That's really a big part of it. It's actually a way of acknowledging what other people have to contribute to our lives and to our organizations, that it doesn't always have to be all about us. And sometimes it's going back and wanting to please your parents by showing what a good boy or what a good girl you are. You just have that need to prove it. And as I said, it's a great thing to be a wonderful person, to be very loyal, to be very sensitive to others. Moods, all of those are good things. But when they're carried too far and especially as we have more authority and influence, they will undermine us. And they will also create a certain amount of chaos by blurring the boundaries of what this person and that person should be doing.
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Are you tired of feeling stuck in your business, career, relationships or your health? Are you frustrated by problems that just won't go away no matter what you try? After coaching and teaching thousands of people for over 25 years, I've discovered something powerful. Every unresolved problem has a hidden solution you just can't see yet. That's why I created the From Stuck to Breakthrough challenge. A free 5 day live experience where I'll show you exactly how to uncover what's really holding you back and and finally break free to the results that you want. Whether it's in your business, your health, Your wealth, your relationships. I'll help you discover the real root cause of your challenges and give you the blueprint for permanent change. Join me and a community of like minded people ready to break through. Go to blind blaming.com again, that's blind blaming.com to sign up and we'll see you soon. We'll switch to the concept of beyond blind blaming. A key concept in the book and the framework that I developed is that people aren't failing at solving their problems, they're succeeding at solving the wrong problems perfectly. Can you think of a story that that kind of triggered that statement right there?
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Oh my goodness, yes. And I think one of the fundamental things in that book in How Women Rise, I opened with a story of myself on stage and my co author, Marshall and I. And Marshall was a real big shot. I don't mean that pejoratively. He was genuinely had a very high profile. He and I were presenting at a big event, a large event, and he kept screwing stuff up. I mean he literally forgot his pants when he flew to Providence, Rhode island where we were speaking and all kinds of things that would have made me extremely nervous. And I put so much effort, so much energy into trying to do my talks perfectly, to remember every detail. I would arrive at a place, I would lock myself in my hotel room and order a Caesar salad and just go over and over and over my remarks. I was in the car going to the event, I would be thinking through and I put myself under so much tension. And so Marshall and I were co presenting and he was very spontaneous and he was sort of there for the audience and I had great stuff to say, but I wasn't spontaneous and I wasn't there for the audience because all I was doing was thinking of what I had to say and the order I had to say it in, et cetera. And I was devoting 100% of my energy to trying to do the wrong thing, as you say, perfectly. And the wrong thing was deliver a perfect talk. Whereas what this really was was an opportunity to interact with an audience, teach them something that could be useful to them and make them feel good about themselves. And what struck me at the end was Marshall actually even forgot that he had an earlier flight than he thought. So he had to leave in the middle. Oh, sorry. Hope you loved it. And the audience gave him a standing ovation and so he dumped it in my lap and I went on. I continued trying to be perfect and I got polite applause and I thought, there is something I am doing really seriously wrong here. And it was trying to do the wrong thing perfectly. So thanks for giving it that framing because I've never thought of it in that way before, but that's what it was. It wasn't. I'm not there to give a perfect speech. I'm there to teach people something and give them an experience.
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B
I had a coach told me the same thing one time after he observed me. He's like, kevin, you're so focused on getting through your slides, you're not paying attention to the audience. And he started teaching me things. When you see the audience fading away to say something like, now look, that's the second most important thing I'm going to share today. Oh, it's so awesome. Every time I've used it, everybody's like, got their head down and they're on their phones and they look up like, oh, I missed the. What was it? What was the first one? Did I miss it? I'm not paying attention. And just refocuses their attention right away.
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A
Try that one.
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B
Yeah. And he also just said, as you're engaging and asking questions throughout the presentation, don't get. Don't get so stuck on your slides. Answer the questions that the audience have, because then you get the standing ovation, as you said. So it's cool that she learned it pretty quickly.
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A
And I don't use slides. I never use slides. Oh, really? Interesting, because I was a speechwriter in the 80s for corporate, and I just hated the guys. Of course, then it was all transparencies, but I just hated the way they would turn their back on the audience and just read the slides. And I thought, if I ever do anything like this, which I had no reason to think I would, I am never going to use slides. I'm going to relate to the audience. It was just that the person who was relating to the audience was a stressed out, uptight, and kind of fearful woman who was trying to be a perfectionist. And that's not what the audience wanted to see because a lot of them felt like they were that themselves. So they knew what it looked like, or they had a boss who was like that. So I. I was conveying something wrong, even though I was allegedly interacting directly with the audience by only looking at them.
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B
Well, one of your core messages is about recognizing patterns and breaking unhelpful habits. As we've talked about. What is your advice for someone who has a blind spot but isn't aware of it?
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A
Well, that's not difficult. Ask. Ask other people. Say, you know, there's something. I mean, we're using an example of speaking here. But you can say, you know, I was in this meeting, you were there, and I felt like I made a really good point and that it didn't land at all. Do you have any suggestions for me, or what would you do in a similar situation? Or did you see that? You know, maybe it's just your own perception. Did you see that? And if they don't really have anything to offer, thank you for giving me the permission to ask this question and then ask someone else. But develop the habit of soliciting small amounts of feedback constantly. Whenever you feel that something could have been a bit better, it may just be you, because you have an unrealistic standard of always doing everything right. But it's also how we learn we aren't necessarily perceived by others in the exact way we think that we are. So we want to learn more about that. Ask people who you trust, people who have goodwill toward you, but get in the habit of doing that either in real time. Hey, what'd you see in that meeting? Is there something you'd suggest that I could do better? People find that flattering. You know, you're going to them for advice, and you get a lot of good ideas. And you also are advertising the fact that you're changing because you're talking to people about how you want to get better at something. So help is available, but it's not something that we can try to do on our own, sort of bootstrap our way to it. We need help. You can't do it alone.
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B
Well, in today's workplace, as you know, leadership dynamics are changing. What new challenges do leaders face today that weren't prevalent or as prevalent 10 or 20 years ago?
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A
I think there's a continuing issue of disengagement, which Gallup has documented and which continues to rise over the years. I think that the challenge of leadership is that organizations are getting smaller, they're getting leaner. AI isn't going to answer every single problem. And leaders need to have better ways of motivating their people and keeping them engaged and showing them that they matter. This is one of the great changes in the workplace that we've seen generationally, that the younger generation at work really wants to feel as if their work matters, as if their work has a role to play in making the world a better place. So I think it's helpful for leaders to think about how they do that, and in a way that's real, because the younger people coming along are pretty sharp at seeing through things that are not real. So that's a very, very important thing, is that how do we keep people engaged? It's no longer perceived of as an HR problem. It is a leadership problem. And often it's the result of leaders who don't understand that.
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B
Well, now you're getting into blind blaming even more. The example I use in my book drives me crazy. We were at a conference, my business partner and I. They had different leaders at different stations. And then each group would kind of do a roundtable for five minutes, and we talk about their biggest problem. And they had gotten together and they. They like, swarmed our table, like, all right, we've been talking about this all morning. You need to help us. Because all these young kids don't want to work anymore. And I look at Eric and he looks at me, goes, you know, that's one of Kevin's favorite topics. I know, it's in his new book. You want to handle that one? I'm like, all right, guys, let me start with a very powerful statement. It's not that they don't want to work anymore. They just don't want to work for you.
- [35:28]
A
You got it.
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B
And it nailed them. Everybody sat down and, like, deflated them. And I'm like, now let's go into what you can do. Let's just get that off the table right away. And as I've been applying for a couple TED talks I had, it was interesting getting interviewed by 19 and 21 year olds. And I'm 52 for a TED talk. And one of them, when I was telling the story, she said, you know, Kevin, I'm so glad you brought that up, because it pisses us off when people say that. And I'm like, oh, wow, you're right. Well, I was like, I agree, it should, because we do want to work, Kevin, but we want to work where we contribute and we make a difference. And we want a good onboarding experience. And I'm like, oh, man, you've stolen everything from my book without me even having to do it. So I got it right. But anyway, if you want to talk a minute about that, and we'll wrap it up here soon.
- [36:10]
A
This has been something that I've been pushing back on for at least 20, 25 years. The younger generation, they don't want to work. They're spoiled. Of course they were spoiled by you.
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B
But that's why another book.
- [36:24]
A
Exactly. But it's so untrue. But they want to feel inspired. Making money is important. Of course it's important. But for them, it's not the Only thing which is very positive and which can be used to make your organization a better place. And it's really also understanding often how they don't work. Well, they got their headphones on all the time. Well, that's how they studied in school. That helps them. Whatever it does, let them work the way they want to work. It doesn't motivate people to be told, this is how you're supposed to show up in the world to. There are too many choices. They know there's not one path. And this is the thing that makes me. And I never, ever, ever do a conference where someone doesn't raise their hand. An older person. And I can say older person, because I'm older than any of them, believe me, they raise their hand and they say, you know, my problem is these young people coming in, they just don't want to work. They don't have the work ethic we had. And it's not true. They want to be passionately engaged, and they want to be engaged from their center, because when I went to work, no one worked over 40 hours. And now they know work is going to bleed into the rest of their life. So they want to have an inspiring experience and they want to make a contribution. That's one of the reasons that word is so powerful today. That's what younger people want to do. And do they want to just contribute to your making $5 million this year instead of four and a half? No, that doesn't get them going. And that's not surprising.
- [38:07]
B
Such great advice. Well, last question. I like to ask this of every expert I have on the show. You've clearly learned some things over the years. How do you like investing in yourself? Is it mastermind groups?
- [38:16]
A
Do you read?
- [38:17]
B
Do you watch podcasts or listen to podcasts? I just always love to ask leaders, how do you invest in yourself?
- [38:23]
A
I read. That's what I do. That's what I've been doing my whole life. That's why I became a writer. You know, I've been in the position of being a thought leader and doing a lot of programs and learning how to be a really good speaker and learning how to deliver a terrific workshop. But basically, that's my core. I'm a writer. So I read. I read all the time. And I'm even someone who would rather read the transcript than listen to the podcast.
- [38:50]
B
Well, Mari. No, I'm with you 100%. That's totally me as well. In fact, I was shocked because I got the new book and I want to get a bunch of readers. Definitely going to get you one because I'd love to get your opinion. But I was really shocked. Like, yeah, I don't read. Can you get me the audiobook when it's out? I'm like, so what I'm doing is I'm adjusting for the generation. So we're not only creating an audio version of the book, we're creating a YouTube version of the book. That's the way I'm getting it out to everyone.
- [39:11]
A
That's fantastic. And I've had huge success with audiobooks. And it's funny because when I did, if I have a minute, I decided I did not like they wanted me to do the audiobook for how Women Rise and Marshall did, I think two chapters. But I did it and I didn't enjoy the experience and I thought it was very hard and I thought I sounded awful. So I told my agent, I want you to put in the contract next book. I do. I don't have to do the audiobook myself. And he said, eh, think about it. Well, then I got this huge response from so many women. They listened to it in the car. That's the thing. They listen to the audiobook. Oh, I listened to the audiobook. I'm so glad it was in your voice that you did it in your voice. I feel that I know you. That is more valuable than anything else. That's more valuable than someone saying, I was influenced by your ideas. They want to know you. And the audiobook is a very good way to do that. I think the YouTube thing is brilliant and I'm probably going to do a version of that for my next book myself.
- [40:17]
B
Well, yeah, my coach just gave me the statement advice. I was like, look, I've got some great voice talent. He goes, no, no, no, no, no. You're reading this and I'm like, one more thing to do. And that is exciting. So I'm glad to hear you say that because you just solidified. I need to get this done. Well, Sally, if people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to get in touch with you?
- [40:32]
A
My website. Sally. Sally helgeson.com right up at the top right hand corner there's a big contact button. It goes directly to my email. I always respond. So that's the best way to get in touch. Also through substack. I started a substack. I'll put you on the list, Kevin, about three years ago. It's got a lot of subscribers now and I sort of play with different ideas. I may write something about this book that you've done. Beyond Blind blaming.
- [41:02]
B
Beyond blind blaming.
- [41:04]
A
And you know, so comments there or emails as a result of that. Another great way to be in touch, but I'm very accessible.
- [41:12]
B
Well, thank you, Sally. Been wonderful having a show. You and I could talk for hours. I know, but we're at the end of the hour, so thanks again and have a great day.
- [41:19]
A
Much appreciate it. Kevin.